"to avenge honour"
May 6, 2004 3:59 PM Subscribe
Pakistani council aproves rape to avenge honour. "A village council in Pakistan permitted a landlord to rape the sister and sister-in-law of a man he accused of an illicit relationship with his daughter, police said Thursday. (...) The council members, all of them landlords themselves, ruled that Ghaffar, who uses only one name, could avenge his honour by having sex with the farmer's daughter, who is 16, and daughter-in-law, who is 22."
(BBC version here).
"An estimated 80 percent of women prisoners in Pakistan are in jail because they failed to prove rape charges".
everybody's got rednecks.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 4:58 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 4:58 PM on May 6, 2004
I remember hearing about tthe shocking story of women in Pakistani from some damned leftist human rights group about 5 years ago, and was shocked and stunned at the time, as I still am. I doubt much pressure will be applied to Pakistan to change their violent ways these days, though...Musharraf's a friend of the west!
posted by Jimbob at 5:06 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by Jimbob at 5:06 PM on May 6, 2004
Hell in a handbasket. I have no idea what that means, but it's the only thing I can think of right now.
Is it true?
posted by chrid at 5:10 PM on May 6, 2004
Is it true?
posted by chrid at 5:10 PM on May 6, 2004
How on earth were any of these people acquitted?
Disgusting.
posted by Mossy at 5:16 PM on May 6, 2004
Disgusting.
posted by Mossy at 5:16 PM on May 6, 2004
I think we can count on Bush to move quickly to get this behavior on the part of our close ally changed. I have no doubt that the administration is shocked and disgusted by this news. Surely we will introduce UN resolutions condemning such behavior.
posted by y6y6y6 at 5:16 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by y6y6y6 at 5:16 PM on May 6, 2004
Any society that would condone the avenging of a wrongdoing by an attack on a third party that had no involvement in the original act is clearly rotten to the core. Such a society must be led by evil, wicked people who must be removed from their positions of power as quickly as possible.
What?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:21 PM on May 6, 2004
What?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:21 PM on May 6, 2004
and this is our ally? I'm willing to bet we invade Pakistan within 20 years.
posted by amberglow at 5:30 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by amberglow at 5:30 PM on May 6, 2004
Sad sad stuff. Even sadder (especially if you, like me, cling naively to the hope that international bodies meant to monitor and prevent human rights abuses can someday be up to the challenge), is the fact that Pakistan was reelected to the UN Commission of Human Rights (along with Sudan - despite the recent news of the government's role in the ethnic cleansing in Darfur).
From Pak News: Pakistan brings a unique perspective to the discussions in the Commission on Human Rights based on its progressive and modern outlook on one hand and its cultural and religious moorings rooted in Islam, on the other.
Unique perspective indeed.
posted by buddha9090 at 5:31 PM on May 6, 2004
From Pak News: Pakistan brings a unique perspective to the discussions in the Commission on Human Rights based on its progressive and modern outlook on one hand and its cultural and religious moorings rooted in Islam, on the other.
Unique perspective indeed.
posted by buddha9090 at 5:31 PM on May 6, 2004
It's shitty. Maybe the women will start a rebellion, take over the government, ass-rape all those in power, then start a new world order characterized by peace and goodwill towards all.
posted by ashbury at 5:33 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by ashbury at 5:33 PM on May 6, 2004
RTFA. The Pakistani government considers the actions of the landlord and the village council to be criminal, and is prosecuting them. Pakistani society in general doesn't condone this.
In a notorious case two years ago that highlighted the plight of women in rural areas, four men were sentenced to death for the gang rape of a woman authorised by another central Punjab village council and two council members accused of abetting the crime also received the death sentence.
Of course, whether death sentences are appropriate at all, and if so, whether rape and/or abetting rape are crimes worthy of death, are other questions.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 5:36 PM on May 6, 2004
In a notorious case two years ago that highlighted the plight of women in rural areas, four men were sentenced to death for the gang rape of a woman authorised by another central Punjab village council and two council members accused of abetting the crime also received the death sentence.
Of course, whether death sentences are appropriate at all, and if so, whether rape and/or abetting rape are crimes worthy of death, are other questions.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 5:36 PM on May 6, 2004
Leave it to Metafilter's finest to work the United States gov't and George Bush into every fucking thread possible. Well done, you pricks.
everybody's got rednecks.
Not sure what that means.
posted by Witty at 5:43 PM on May 6, 2004
everybody's got rednecks.
Not sure what that means.
posted by Witty at 5:43 PM on May 6, 2004
The main problem is that Pakistan is a mishmash of rurality and city livin - the rural regions have their own culture, which is extremely tribal in nature, which leads to things such as this, in addition to the disgusting occurence of "honour" killings. There are also abhorrent practices such as acid throwing and so on - the sooner the Pakistani government stomps on these hard, the better..
But of course, it's a bit more difficult than that as tribal districts are generally very closemouthed about the abuses that are perpertrated within them for such disgusting excuses as honour - if you're a police officer, you're not going to tell on the head village honcho or your life will get very complex for the short time left to you..
posted by Mossy at 5:46 PM on May 6, 2004
But of course, it's a bit more difficult than that as tribal districts are generally very closemouthed about the abuses that are perpertrated within them for such disgusting excuses as honour - if you're a police officer, you're not going to tell on the head village honcho or your life will get very complex for the short time left to you..
posted by Mossy at 5:46 PM on May 6, 2004
Look, I'm as appalled as everyone else about this but I can't help but be reminded of the village council in Nigeria who authorised stoning for adultery.
My (very incomplete) understanding of Islamic law is that it is very decentralised with village council's operating pretty much under their own rules but still subservient to a legal system which the West might find more recognisable.
I think the key to this link was the first and last lines; sentence handed down by a village council and is subject to appeal.
Here's hoping for a little judicial sense at appeal in, like you know, a court?
On preview: I defer to Mossy on this one
posted by dmt at 5:59 PM on May 6, 2004
My (very incomplete) understanding of Islamic law is that it is very decentralised with village council's operating pretty much under their own rules but still subservient to a legal system which the West might find more recognisable.
I think the key to this link was the first and last lines; sentence handed down by a village council and is subject to appeal.
Here's hoping for a little judicial sense at appeal in, like you know, a court?
On preview: I defer to Mossy on this one
posted by dmt at 5:59 PM on May 6, 2004
Under "Islamic" law, as far as I can see it, the only entity that can implement a death penalty is the State itself, not a village council. There is a specified set of rules for conviction on the matter of adultery (again, as I referenced in the other thread, I do not believe it is mandatory in this day and age), all of which must be fulfilled without a shadow of a doubt.
contains some of the issues at hand - search for "qarinah" on the page.
I think Lawal might actually have confessed.. I can't remember though.. Hmm..
posted by Mossy at 6:09 PM on May 6, 2004
contains some of the issues at hand - search for "qarinah" on the page.
I think Lawal might actually have confessed.. I can't remember though.. Hmm..
posted by Mossy at 6:09 PM on May 6, 2004
everybody's got rednecks. - _sirmissalot_
Not sure what that means. - Witty
It means this.
posted by nicwolff at 6:25 PM on May 6, 2004
Not sure what that means. - Witty
It means this.
posted by nicwolff at 6:25 PM on May 6, 2004
Leave it to Metafilter's finest to work the United States gov't and George Bush into every fucking thread possible. Well done, you pricks.
Good news? Who can talk about good news when there's so much evil in the world perpetrated directly by Bush! Bad news? Why, I bet that Bush bastard is behind it!
posted by Krrrlson at 6:35 PM on May 6, 2004
Good news? Who can talk about good news when there's so much evil in the world perpetrated directly by Bush! Bad news? Why, I bet that Bush bastard is behind it!
posted by Krrrlson at 6:35 PM on May 6, 2004
Leave it to Metafilter's finest to work the United States gov't and George Bush into every fucking thread possible. Well done, you pricks.
Instead of drawing attention to it, why don't you respond to the posts that are, um, actually about Pakistan and Islamic Law instead of bitching about the ones that aren't?
Anyway, thanks for the comments Mossy.
posted by buddha9090 at 7:16 PM on May 6, 2004
Instead of drawing attention to it, why don't you respond to the posts that are, um, actually about Pakistan and Islamic Law instead of bitching about the ones that aren't?
Anyway, thanks for the comments Mossy.
posted by buddha9090 at 7:16 PM on May 6, 2004
http://www.crescentlife.com/articles/rape_laws.htm
A critique of the Pakistan "rape laws".
Which Mossy doesn't like either. Mmm.
posted by Mossy at 7:29 PM on May 6, 2004
A critique of the Pakistan "rape laws".
Which Mossy doesn't like either. Mmm.
posted by Mossy at 7:29 PM on May 6, 2004
Instead of drawing attention to it, why don't you respond to the posts that are, um, actually about Pakistan and Islamic Law instead of bitching about the ones that aren't?
Um, maybe because it does get a tad annoying and they need to be told to put a sock in it? Annoying for people like me who come here for the quirky links and invariably end up reading a Bush-is-evil flame war.
BTW buddha9090, instead of drawing attention to comments that bitch about other comments, why don't you respond to the posts that are, um, actually about Pakistan and Islamic Law instead of bitching about the ones that aren't?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:44 PM on May 6, 2004
Um, maybe because it does get a tad annoying and they need to be told to put a sock in it? Annoying for people like me who come here for the quirky links and invariably end up reading a Bush-is-evil flame war.
BTW buddha9090, instead of drawing attention to comments that bitch about other comments, why don't you respond to the posts that are, um, actually about Pakistan and Islamic Law instead of bitching about the ones that aren't?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:44 PM on May 6, 2004
Wrong is wrong, but me thinks that 111 had a political agenda in mind when he posted this. The liberals need to be reminded how fucked up those Arabs are so we don't feel so bad about the torture pictures? Do I get a gold star, 111?
posted by jbou at 8:27 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by jbou at 8:27 PM on May 6, 2004
Best. Allies. Ever.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:32 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by kirkaracha at 8:32 PM on May 6, 2004
Pakistanis are not Arabs, so you don't get a gold star. Sorry, it's a technicality, I know, but them's the rules. [I suspect that you are otherwise correct]
posted by moonbiter at 9:17 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by moonbiter at 9:17 PM on May 6, 2004
I don't think Pakistan are the best of the US allies, but in all fairness, I doubt women in Karachi have these problems. Pakistan needs to work harder to prevent these kinds of things happening in its rural areas.
posted by chunking express at 9:20 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by chunking express at 9:20 PM on May 6, 2004
Yes, 111 has a political agenda: to show that in its creation of a culture in which systemic abuse, including rape, is allowed to proliferate until exposed, at which point the justice system finally kicks in, the United States has adopted the morality of remote Pakistani villages.
Right?
After all, Smokin' Lynndie's townsfolk say that those Iraqis deserved to be shot. It's an honour thing.
posted by riviera at 10:12 PM on May 6, 2004
Right?
After all, Smokin' Lynndie's townsfolk say that those Iraqis deserved to be shot. It's an honour thing.
posted by riviera at 10:12 PM on May 6, 2004
Leave it to Metafilter's finest to work the United States gov't and George Bush into every fucking thread possible. Well done, you pricks.
Leave it to the chickenhawks to wage war based on WMDs (check, Pakistan) ... uuuuuh, I meant based on gross human rights abuses by the authorities (check, Pakistan).
posted by magullo at 9:20 AM on May 7, 2004
Leave it to the chickenhawks to wage war based on WMDs (check, Pakistan) ... uuuuuh, I meant based on gross human rights abuses by the authorities (check, Pakistan).
posted by magullo at 9:20 AM on May 7, 2004
Just to reiterate:
Pakistanis are not Arabs.
The ruling of the council of one tiny village in Pakistan is not in and of itself an indication of the values of Pakistani society as a whole.
The many dark corners and retrograde knots in Pakistan's legal system are really only comprehensible if you know a lot more about where Pakistan came from and how it got to where it is today. It is a conversation that begins begins with Jinnah and proceeds through Zia to Musharraf and the present mess of Pakistani politics and it also includes tricky stuff like trying to maintain even a vague sense of the rule of law in the Northern Areas and the Nortwest Frontier Province and Baluchistan and also contain the rage of the Kashmiri jihadis and many other issues besides, and unless you're quite familiar with names like Jinnah and Baluchistan, I don't think there's much to be gained by debating a nasty news item from rural Punjab.
111's political agenda is well-known and quite nasty indeed, and it appears to include (among other joys) a strong desire to convince Mefites that the developing world as a whole is irredeemably barbaric. As a counterpoint, I'll just say this: I spent a couple of weeks in Lahore, the capital of Pakistani Punjab, in early 2000, and I found it to be the first time in my life that I was literally embarassed by the hospitality of my hosts.
posted by gompa at 9:59 AM on May 7, 2004
Pakistanis are not Arabs.
The ruling of the council of one tiny village in Pakistan is not in and of itself an indication of the values of Pakistani society as a whole.
The many dark corners and retrograde knots in Pakistan's legal system are really only comprehensible if you know a lot more about where Pakistan came from and how it got to where it is today. It is a conversation that begins begins with Jinnah and proceeds through Zia to Musharraf and the present mess of Pakistani politics and it also includes tricky stuff like trying to maintain even a vague sense of the rule of law in the Northern Areas and the Nortwest Frontier Province and Baluchistan and also contain the rage of the Kashmiri jihadis and many other issues besides, and unless you're quite familiar with names like Jinnah and Baluchistan, I don't think there's much to be gained by debating a nasty news item from rural Punjab.
111's political agenda is well-known and quite nasty indeed, and it appears to include (among other joys) a strong desire to convince Mefites that the developing world as a whole is irredeemably barbaric. As a counterpoint, I'll just say this: I spent a couple of weeks in Lahore, the capital of Pakistani Punjab, in early 2000, and I found it to be the first time in my life that I was literally embarassed by the hospitality of my hosts.
posted by gompa at 9:59 AM on May 7, 2004
Reelection to *this* Pakistani Council is going to be a tough race. platform: 2 for one on rape? Any desenting opinion is going to be difficult to articulate. "I'm against regaining your honor when your sister is raped."
posted by xtian at 10:58 AM on May 7, 2004
posted by xtian at 10:58 AM on May 7, 2004
Islamic Concept Of State And Its Effect Of Islamization In Pakistan
I personally don't think they'll ever reach an "Islamic" state, but I'd like to see them tidying up the enforcement of their laws to stop crap like this from happening.
How? Erm.. I'd say proper religious education, but that's just me.. ^_^
posted by Mossy at 11:47 AM on May 7, 2004
I personally don't think they'll ever reach an "Islamic" state, but I'd like to see them tidying up the enforcement of their laws to stop crap like this from happening.
How? Erm.. I'd say proper religious education, but that's just me.. ^_^
posted by Mossy at 11:47 AM on May 7, 2004
111's political agenda is well-known and quite nasty indeed, and it appears to include (among other joys) a strong desire to convince Mefites that the developing world as a whole is irredeemably barbaric.
"Quite nasty indeed"? If you read the links, they quite astonishingly had nothing whatsoever to do with 111, much as you might like to pretend otherwise. I have a strong desire that someone try to convince me that the events described above are not barbaric.
By the way, what is the "developing world as a whole"?
posted by hama7 at 2:33 PM on May 7, 2004
"Quite nasty indeed"? If you read the links, they quite astonishingly had nothing whatsoever to do with 111, much as you might like to pretend otherwise. I have a strong desire that someone try to convince me that the events described above are not barbaric.
By the way, what is the "developing world as a whole"?
posted by hama7 at 2:33 PM on May 7, 2004
Over in that hemisphere do they ever sentence folks to be buried alive?
posted by apollo3000 at 8:57 PM on May 9, 2004
posted by apollo3000 at 8:57 PM on May 9, 2004
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posted by zekinskia at 4:51 PM on May 6, 2004