New York's Finest Sweep Up Streets
September 2, 2004 10:37 AM Subscribe
Protests at RNC test appropriate response
An eyewitness account by I Can't Believe Its A Democracy - "I just have to pause here for a moment to make an observation. How many times have I seen an interview with an arrested protester who claimed he or she had done nothing to provoke the police. Almost always my reaction has been, "Yeah, sure." Only now I was seeing this very situation unfold in front of my eyes. These protesters, while certainly noisy, had obeyed police instructions down the entire length of the street. Now they were being treated as if they had gotten wildly out of control, but they hadn't. I know, because I was there."
Another account from Captain Normal (also an eyewitness and even got arrested and held for 24 hours without being charged or being able to contact a lawyer) discusses a family of French tourists caught up in the sweep as well as some of the other residents of "Gitmo on the Hudson".
An eyewitness account by I Can't Believe Its A Democracy - "I just have to pause here for a moment to make an observation. How many times have I seen an interview with an arrested protester who claimed he or she had done nothing to provoke the police. Almost always my reaction has been, "Yeah, sure." Only now I was seeing this very situation unfold in front of my eyes. These protesters, while certainly noisy, had obeyed police instructions down the entire length of the street. Now they were being treated as if they had gotten wildly out of control, but they hadn't. I know, because I was there."
Another account from Captain Normal (also an eyewitness and even got arrested and held for 24 hours without being charged or being able to contact a lawyer) discusses a family of French tourists caught up in the sweep as well as some of the other residents of "Gitmo on the Hudson".
Welcome to the Soviet States of America, aka Police State. It's only a matter of time before the "dissent" expressed in these posts comes back to haunt us. In Bush's new democracy our only true freedom is the right to keep our mouths shut.
posted by fleener at 10:52 AM on September 2, 2004
posted by fleener at 10:52 AM on September 2, 2004
Nice thoughts zelphi, but this is the Nixon era again. Watch their actions, not their words.
posted by fleener at 10:53 AM on September 2, 2004
posted by fleener at 10:53 AM on September 2, 2004
From your last link ... "Cops fear some protesters might hang around after the convention to disrupt other events, like the U.S. Open, so the pen will remain open indefinitely."
Yup, the boot has landed squarely on the face of NYC, we get to be the test case for the new police state, coming soon to a liberal enclave near you.
posted by milovoo at 10:58 AM on September 2, 2004
Yup, the boot has landed squarely on the face of NYC, we get to be the test case for the new police state, coming soon to a liberal enclave near you.
posted by milovoo at 10:58 AM on September 2, 2004
Of course, if they'd only singled out the family of French tourists then I would have probably laughed my ass off. But as it is, they are sweeping up the street and taking every single person to jail, regardless of what they are doing.
Bummer for the guy who just stepped out of his office to have a smoke. Or go to lunch.
And Zelphi, the stories are corroborated across the web, Arrests at RNC. What does the Christian Science Monitor have to gain by lying about the arrests?
posted by fenriq at 11:05 AM on September 2, 2004
Bummer for the guy who just stepped out of his office to have a smoke. Or go to lunch.
And Zelphi, the stories are corroborated across the web, Arrests at RNC. What does the Christian Science Monitor have to gain by lying about the arrests?
posted by fenriq at 11:05 AM on September 2, 2004
When Nerds Protest The RNC.
Bikes Against Bush Arrest Video
posted by thomcatspike at 11:13 AM on September 2, 2004
Bikes Against Bush Arrest Video
posted by thomcatspike at 11:13 AM on September 2, 2004
Hey, so the French tourists get a tour of 100 Center Street. Actually, I was there last night, to attorney the arraignment of some poor slob who was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was issued a Desk Appearance Ticket and released (= without arraignment).
100 Center Street is unpleasant and dreary, but no more unpleasant than say, the unairconditioned Chatelet-Les Halles RER station (or the actual trains) on a hot summer's day.
Plus, think of the all the Americans they'll get to meet with!
posted by ParisParamus at 11:15 AM on September 2, 2004
100 Center Street is unpleasant and dreary, but no more unpleasant than say, the unairconditioned Chatelet-Les Halles RER station (or the actual trains) on a hot summer's day.
Plus, think of the all the Americans they'll get to meet with!
posted by ParisParamus at 11:15 AM on September 2, 2004
Welcome to the Soviet States of America, aka Police State.
Yup, the boot has landed squarely on the face of NYC, we get to be the test case for the new police state,
*rolls eyes*
I have no doubt that there were probably some questionable arrests made during some protests, but to conflate that into a "police state" is the kind of hyperbolic overstatement that saps the left's credibility. If you can say that you live in a police state, then you don't live in a police state.
I was at the major demonstration on Sunday, marching all the way from fifth to Union Square and i saw remarkably little police involvement, the cops were calm if not convivial for the most part. I did meet one Aryan looking guy in a hammer & sickle t-shirt who, when I commented that the cops had been pretty mellow, curled his lips in a sneer and said that he "hated the whole concept of policing." I fought an urge to ask him him how long he thought his skinny ass would last on the streets of New York without police.
posted by jonmc at 11:19 AM on September 2, 2004
Yup, the boot has landed squarely on the face of NYC, we get to be the test case for the new police state,
*rolls eyes*
I have no doubt that there were probably some questionable arrests made during some protests, but to conflate that into a "police state" is the kind of hyperbolic overstatement that saps the left's credibility. If you can say that you live in a police state, then you don't live in a police state.
I was at the major demonstration on Sunday, marching all the way from fifth to Union Square and i saw remarkably little police involvement, the cops were calm if not convivial for the most part. I did meet one Aryan looking guy in a hammer & sickle t-shirt who, when I commented that the cops had been pretty mellow, curled his lips in a sneer and said that he "hated the whole concept of policing." I fought an urge to ask him him how long he thought his skinny ass would last on the streets of New York without police.
posted by jonmc at 11:19 AM on September 2, 2004
the unairconditioned Chatelet-Les Halles RER station
No Air E Air there?
posted by thomcatspike at 11:20 AM on September 2, 2004
No Air E Air there?
posted by thomcatspike at 11:20 AM on September 2, 2004
It's only more paperwork if charges are laid. Given that everyone there seems to be arrested without charge, it looks like the thugs in blue have been freed of inconveniences like having to keep records.
I'm so glad I left the area. I guess I don't have to wonder now about those people in the area I've unsuccessfully tried to get in touch with this week.
posted by clevershark at 11:22 AM on September 2, 2004
I'm so glad I left the area. I guess I don't have to wonder now about those people in the area I've unsuccessfully tried to get in touch with this week.
posted by clevershark at 11:22 AM on September 2, 2004
Nice to see that ParisParamus is making some cash on the deal.
posted by Eekacat at 11:41 AM on September 2, 2004
posted by Eekacat at 11:41 AM on September 2, 2004
Eekacat: I need to save up so that I can get a cable modem, so I can post faster on Metafilter-- my DSL line is too slow!
Seriously, I do give to charities (other than myself). And not Republicans--promise. Also, I gave some free advice to a number of people who asked.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:49 AM on September 2, 2004
Seriously, I do give to charities (other than myself). And not Republicans--promise. Also, I gave some free advice to a number of people who asked.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:49 AM on September 2, 2004
jonmc, that's just the thing, the cops would be totally cool and then, for no apparent reason, would just arresting masses of people.
And I was under the impression they were being held in a bus garage on the Hudson.
posted by fenriq at 11:50 AM on September 2, 2004
And I was under the impression they were being held in a bus garage on the Hudson.
posted by fenriq at 11:50 AM on September 2, 2004
*rolls eyes* I was at the major demonstration on Sunday, marching all the way from fifth to Union Square and i saw remarkably little police involvement, the cops were calm if not convivial for the most part.
Just to question the unbiased observer a bit, have you ever considered that admiring cops in general and aspiring to join them might give you a different perspective than most people?
Personally, I don't like to see a whole section of the city cordoned off and controlled by the police. Also, I have seen people dragged away without being told the conditions of their arrest or read any sort of rights, IANAL, so maybe those things are optional in this situation, but I sure think it's not right.
posted by milovoo at 11:54 AM on September 2, 2004
Just to question the unbiased observer a bit, have you ever considered that admiring cops in general and aspiring to join them might give you a different perspective than most people?
Personally, I don't like to see a whole section of the city cordoned off and controlled by the police. Also, I have seen people dragged away without being told the conditions of their arrest or read any sort of rights, IANAL, so maybe those things are optional in this situation, but I sure think it's not right.
posted by milovoo at 11:54 AM on September 2, 2004
Traditional Protest is Dead. Long Live Political Prose.
posted by ilsa at 11:59 AM on September 2, 2004
posted by ilsa at 11:59 AM on September 2, 2004
Just to question the unbiased observer a bit, have you ever considered that admiring cops in general and aspiring to join them might give you a different perspective than most people?
I don't doubt that it does, but I've seen the other side of it, too. Being fisheyed for being a white guy in the wrong neighborhood, etc. So while I'm definitely pro-law enforcement and respect the job, that dosen't mean I'm incapable of appreciating criticism of it.
I wasn't questioning that there may very well have been questionable arrests at this particular event, merely offering my own observations and objecting to inflammatory hyperbole.
Personally, I don't like to see a whole section of the city cordoned off and controlled by the police
You'd prefer a crowd of half a million with no police presence, then?
posted by jonmc at 12:02 PM on September 2, 2004
I don't doubt that it does, but I've seen the other side of it, too. Being fisheyed for being a white guy in the wrong neighborhood, etc. So while I'm definitely pro-law enforcement and respect the job, that dosen't mean I'm incapable of appreciating criticism of it.
I wasn't questioning that there may very well have been questionable arrests at this particular event, merely offering my own observations and objecting to inflammatory hyperbole.
Personally, I don't like to see a whole section of the city cordoned off and controlled by the police
You'd prefer a crowd of half a million with no police presence, then?
posted by jonmc at 12:02 PM on September 2, 2004
for no apparent reason, would just arresting masses of people.
So when confronted with "no apparent reason" for an action you decide it's the end of democracy in America and the beginnings of a Fascist police state? Where's Occam's razor when you need it? How about this - they were arrested for a reason that was not immediately apparent but related to preventing violence and the loss of control that occurred in Seattle, Quebec City, Italy and Sweden. Measured by those terms, by the way, police behaviour has been a rousing success. No deaths or serious injuries that I know of, and almost no property damage. No running street battles with the cops and firebombs sounds pretty positive too.
posted by loquax at 12:06 PM on September 2, 2004
So when confronted with "no apparent reason" for an action you decide it's the end of democracy in America and the beginnings of a Fascist police state? Where's Occam's razor when you need it? How about this - they were arrested for a reason that was not immediately apparent but related to preventing violence and the loss of control that occurred in Seattle, Quebec City, Italy and Sweden. Measured by those terms, by the way, police behaviour has been a rousing success. No deaths or serious injuries that I know of, and almost no property damage. No running street battles with the cops and firebombs sounds pretty positive too.
posted by loquax at 12:06 PM on September 2, 2004
loquax, the Republicans had conventions in Seattle, Quebec City, Italy and Sweden? That seems awfully strange considering voting is restricted (mostly) to US citizens.
But I should have maybe written, for no IMMEDIATELY apparent reason, they would just start arresting masses of people.
And the only injury I've heard of was one police officer got seriously hurt, but no details.
posted by fenriq at 12:34 PM on September 2, 2004
But I should have maybe written, for no IMMEDIATELY apparent reason, they would just start arresting masses of people.
And the only injury I've heard of was one police officer got seriously hurt, but no details.
posted by fenriq at 12:34 PM on September 2, 2004
fenriq: Seattle, Genoa, Quebec City, and Gothenburg.
Protests can get out of hand, people can get hurt and property can get damaged if the police don't act appropriately, both with restraint and with force when necessary. Frankly, it seems to me that the protesters in New York were able to march, chant and get their message across, and there was minimal violence on either side. This is a success. 1,000 arrests out of at least 500,000 protesters is an arrest rate of 0.2%. I fail to see how anyone's voice was silenced or how anyone was discouraged from expressing their views. I do see how no-one was allowed to hijack the city, incite riots and cause harm in the name of their cause, whatever it may be.
Here's another eyewitness account of events:
I asked Durant what he thought about the police response to the marches thus far. "Quite honestly, a mixed review," he said. "I've seen a lot of restraint."
Soviet States of America indeed.
posted by loquax at 12:53 PM on September 2, 2004
Protests can get out of hand, people can get hurt and property can get damaged if the police don't act appropriately, both with restraint and with force when necessary. Frankly, it seems to me that the protesters in New York were able to march, chant and get their message across, and there was minimal violence on either side. This is a success. 1,000 arrests out of at least 500,000 protesters is an arrest rate of 0.2%. I fail to see how anyone's voice was silenced or how anyone was discouraged from expressing their views. I do see how no-one was allowed to hijack the city, incite riots and cause harm in the name of their cause, whatever it may be.
Here's another eyewitness account of events:
I asked Durant what he thought about the police response to the marches thus far. "Quite honestly, a mixed review," he said. "I've seen a lot of restraint."
Soviet States of America indeed.
posted by loquax at 12:53 PM on September 2, 2004
I've heard of was one police officer got seriously hurt, but no details.
Officer Hurt Capturing Early GOP Protesters
posted by thomcatspike at 12:55 PM on September 2, 2004
Officer Hurt Capturing Early GOP Protesters
posted by thomcatspike at 12:55 PM on September 2, 2004
Let's face it; you never heard of a protest getting out of control in the old U.S.S.R.
posted by wendell at 1:10 PM on September 2, 2004
posted by wendell at 1:10 PM on September 2, 2004
they were arrested for a reason that was not immediately apparent but related to preventing violence and the loss of control that occurred in Seattle, Quebec City, Italy and Sweden. Measured by those terms, by the way, police behaviour has been a rousing success.
Maybe you could almost forget that there were even any protesters at all.
You'd prefer a crowd of half a million with no police presence, then?
To be honest, other than wishing they were in Indianapolis or Wichita or whereever, I don't know what I would prefer.
... but whatever, it's pretty much same argument we always have about this kind of thing, so I'll just say that I disagree with the concept of using a massive police presence to discourage dissent and leave it at that. (that, and I just got to meet Ron Reagan, wheee! You know, if we just had to have a Republican president's kid as another president, I sure wish it would have been him instead)
posted by milovoo at 1:11 PM on September 2, 2004
Maybe you could almost forget that there were even any protesters at all.
You'd prefer a crowd of half a million with no police presence, then?
To be honest, other than wishing they were in Indianapolis or Wichita or whereever, I don't know what I would prefer.
... but whatever, it's pretty much same argument we always have about this kind of thing, so I'll just say that I disagree with the concept of using a massive police presence to discourage dissent and leave it at that. (that, and I just got to meet Ron Reagan, wheee! You know, if we just had to have a Republican president's kid as another president, I sure wish it would have been him instead)
posted by milovoo at 1:11 PM on September 2, 2004
Officer Hurt Capturing Early GOP Protesters
25 years for hanging a political sign. That doesn't sound like Red China at all...
posted by jpoulos at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2004
25 years for hanging a political sign. That doesn't sound like Red China at all...
posted by jpoulos at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2004
but whatever, it's pretty much same argument we always have about this kind of thing, so I'll just say that I disagree with the concept of using a massive police presence to discourage dissent and leave it at that
That's not what the police presence is for. Certainly some people on either side may see that way, but ultimately the valid reason for a police presence at a gathering that large is to preserve order.
posted by jonmc at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2004
That's not what the police presence is for. Certainly some people on either side may see that way, but ultimately the valid reason for a police presence at a gathering that large is to preserve order.
posted by jonmc at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2004
Well, I'm actually impressed at the relationship between police and protesters in contrast to the Republican and Democratic conventions during the 2000 campaign season. Lest we forget, the 2000 Republican convention included the FBI-prompted "puppetista" arrests of activists for posession of paper mache and cleaning fluid. At least some of the arrests seemed to be designed to keep key activists away from the Democratic convention, with bail as high as $1 million dollars requested for non-violent offenses.
Italy was a worst-case scenario on all sides. Police rejected attempts to engage in negotiation with moderate groups resulting in the mass-pull out of one of the largest non-violence groups from Genoa. Italian police have apparently admitted to planting evidence and acting as agent provocateurs during the protests. The Diaz school raid seemed to be especially bloody and arbitrary with police using planted Molotov cocktails as a pretext for what is widely regarded as extreme and excessive violence, including accounts of torture that continued during lockup.
What is interesting are the connections involved. Some of the Genoa police complicit in the framing and brutality were apparently trained by American anti-terrorism schools. The similarity of justification for the Diaz school raid and the puppetista raid (claimed presence of Molotov cocktails at the scene) is highly suspicious to me, and both cases may have involved counterintelpro strategies of planting informants and provocateurs inside protest organizations.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 1:29 PM on September 2, 2004
Italy was a worst-case scenario on all sides. Police rejected attempts to engage in negotiation with moderate groups resulting in the mass-pull out of one of the largest non-violence groups from Genoa. Italian police have apparently admitted to planting evidence and acting as agent provocateurs during the protests. The Diaz school raid seemed to be especially bloody and arbitrary with police using planted Molotov cocktails as a pretext for what is widely regarded as extreme and excessive violence, including accounts of torture that continued during lockup.
What is interesting are the connections involved. Some of the Genoa police complicit in the framing and brutality were apparently trained by American anti-terrorism schools. The similarity of justification for the Diaz school raid and the puppetista raid (claimed presence of Molotov cocktails at the scene) is highly suspicious to me, and both cases may have involved counterintelpro strategies of planting informants and provocateurs inside protest organizations.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 1:29 PM on September 2, 2004
Let's face it; you never heard of a protest getting out of control in the old U.S.S.R.
Protests were allowed in the old U.S.S.R? Oh, you must mean in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Yeah, they shut those guys up all right. Just like the NYC cops.
posted by loquax at 1:31 PM on September 2, 2004
Protests were allowed in the old U.S.S.R? Oh, you must mean in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Yeah, they shut those guys up all right. Just like the NYC cops.
posted by loquax at 1:31 PM on September 2, 2004
This week, New York City is packed to the breaking point with simpering drama-queens of ALL political persuasion. Something's gotta give.
posted by dhoyt at 1:45 PM on September 2, 2004
posted by dhoyt at 1:45 PM on September 2, 2004
Being fisheyed for being a white guy in the wrong neighborhood, etc.
I bet the state really gives you a hard time for that.
posted by sudama at 1:45 PM on September 2, 2004
I bet the state really gives you a hard time for that.
posted by sudama at 1:45 PM on September 2, 2004
...Sgt. Joseph Diaz, cut open his leg when he fell through a skylight on the roof.... Because of Diaz's injury, the four activists who hung the sign were charged with first-degree assault - which carries a maximum prison sentence of 25 years
This one I don't particluarly get. How does the officer being a klutz and falling through a window the protestors warned him of turn into an overt act of violence on the part of protestors. Is this a common prosecutorial practice? By this rationale, an officer driving to a robbery at high speed runs off the road and breaks his toe. The robber is subsequently apprehended and charged with assault as the officer wouldn't have had to drive fast if there hadn't been a robbery and his toe would have been intact.
Perhaps there is some element i'm missing here?
posted by jester69 at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2004
This one I don't particluarly get. How does the officer being a klutz and falling through a window the protestors warned him of turn into an overt act of violence on the part of protestors. Is this a common prosecutorial practice? By this rationale, an officer driving to a robbery at high speed runs off the road and breaks his toe. The robber is subsequently apprehended and charged with assault as the officer wouldn't have had to drive fast if there hadn't been a robbery and his toe would have been intact.
Perhaps there is some element i'm missing here?
posted by jester69 at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2004
Loquax: NYC = Prague, 1968--It's "so" obvious.
Please, in 2004, people with any of the following are not politically persuasive:
Body piercings, lip or nose piercings
Tatoos
Smoking
Dreadlocks
BusHitler decals
Women with armpit hair
People with speech pattern indicative of drug-induced brain damage.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2004
Please, in 2004, people with any of the following are not politically persuasive:
Body piercings, lip or nose piercings
Tatoos
Smoking
Dreadlocks
BusHitler decals
Women with armpit hair
People with speech pattern indicative of drug-induced brain damage.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2004
Your protest would have no existential value if there were no danger of resistance from authority. That's the definition of protest. Another name for group of thousands of people who hate Bush all gathered together in one place without any threat of arrest of police resistance, is "Union Square on any day of the week." Resistance defines your protest. To whine about it is disingenuous.
From the cop's point of view: You are protesting. You are an asshole. Beating you up is in the natural order of things. (When you think about it, there is a lot of merit in this view.)
How to not get beat up by the cops: Don't be an asshole (in their eyes). Stay away from assholes, or be collateral.
posted by Faze at 1:52 PM on September 2, 2004
From the cop's point of view: You are protesting. You are an asshole. Beating you up is in the natural order of things. (When you think about it, there is a lot of merit in this view.)
How to not get beat up by the cops: Don't be an asshole (in their eyes). Stay away from assholes, or be collateral.
posted by Faze at 1:52 PM on September 2, 2004
I bet the state really gives you a hard time for that.
The automatic assumption among many people is that the only reason a white guy would be in a black neighborhood is to buy drugs. Call it what you want.
posted by jonmc at 1:53 PM on September 2, 2004
The automatic assumption among many people is that the only reason a white guy would be in a black neighborhood is to buy drugs. Call it what you want.
posted by jonmc at 1:53 PM on September 2, 2004
When Nerds Protest The RNC.
That's not a nerd, that's one of them web design losers.
posted by gyc at 1:53 PM on September 2, 2004
That's not a nerd, that's one of them web design losers.
posted by gyc at 1:53 PM on September 2, 2004
From the cop's point of view: You are protesting. You are an asshole. Beating you up is in the natural order of things. (When you think about it, there is a lot of merit in this view.)
I had no idea that people would seriously stand up and defend fascism, but whatever floats your boat...
posted by clevershark at 2:33 PM on September 2, 2004
I had no idea that people would seriously stand up and defend fascism, but whatever floats your boat...
posted by clevershark at 2:33 PM on September 2, 2004
jester69, it's my understanding that if an officer (and maybe anyone else) is injured during a protest act (hanging the banner) you could be charged with a tougher crime. it doesn't matter if you pushed or the officer fell.
police or no police, the constant noise from the four helicopters securing the airspace is driving me mad. combined with seeing police outnumbering civilians at about 10 to 1, i may already be insane.
posted by armacy at 2:37 PM on September 2, 2004
police or no police, the constant noise from the four helicopters securing the airspace is driving me mad. combined with seeing police outnumbering civilians at about 10 to 1, i may already be insane.
posted by armacy at 2:37 PM on September 2, 2004
The automatic assumption among many people is that the only reason a white guy would be in a black neighborhood is to buy drugs. Call it what you want.
jonmc is waitin' for his man...
posted by Ufez Jones at 2:53 PM on September 2, 2004
jonmc is waitin' for his man...
posted by Ufez Jones at 2:53 PM on September 2, 2004
i may already be insane.
What helicopters?
... just kidding.
I wonder if these are the black helicopters that you always hear "crazy" people going on about, hmm, maybe they were right all along. I'm going to check on the current price of fashionable tinfoil headwear, you know, just in case.
posted by milovoo at 3:00 PM on September 2, 2004
What helicopters?
... just kidding.
I wonder if these are the black helicopters that you always hear "crazy" people going on about, hmm, maybe they were right all along. I'm going to check on the current price of fashionable tinfoil headwear, you know, just in case.
posted by milovoo at 3:00 PM on September 2, 2004
ParisParamus: People with speech pattern [sic] indicative of drug-induced brain damage.
Sorry, but that's just too funny.
posted by Sinner at 3:04 PM on September 2, 2004
Sorry, but that's just too funny.
posted by Sinner at 3:04 PM on September 2, 2004
sinner, I'm glad you saw the humor because I saw bigotry there.
Smokers can't be politically persuasive?
Women with armpit hair?
What? Are you checking if she's got bushy pits before you'll listen to her?
People born with speech defects can be politically persuasive? What about people born with speech defects due to drug abuse by their mom in the womb?
Yeah, look at below, this slope is far too slippery to stay on.
Did you read what you wrote before posting it?
posted by fenriq at 3:37 PM on September 2, 2004
Smokers can't be politically persuasive?
Women with armpit hair?
What? Are you checking if she's got bushy pits before you'll listen to her?
People born with speech defects can be politically persuasive? What about people born with speech defects due to drug abuse by their mom in the womb?
Yeah, look at below, this slope is far too slippery to stay on.
Did you read what you wrote before posting it?
posted by fenriq at 3:37 PM on September 2, 2004
Your protest would have no existential value if there were no danger of resistance from authority. That's the definition of protest. Another name for group of thousands of people who hate Bush all gathered together in one place without any threat of arrest of police resistance, is "Union Square on any day of the week." Resistance defines your protest. To whine about it is disingenuous.
I don't think protestors care about "existential value" - they want political change. They want to demonstrate that there are many people with similar beliefs. I guess if you want to maximize your existential value, you end up with Tiananmen Square?
By the way, it's common here in DC nowadays for people to be arrested simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time during political events.
From the cop's point of view: You are protesting. You are an asshole. Beating you up is in the natural order of things. (When you think about it, there is a lot of merit in this view.)
How to not get beat up by the cops: Don't be an asshole (in their eyes). Stay away from assholes, or be collateral.
In America, we have the fundamental right to be assholes. If the police can beat you up for being an asshole, rather than breaking a law and resisting arrest, well, see, that's a problem.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:54 PM on September 2, 2004
I don't think protestors care about "existential value" - they want political change. They want to demonstrate that there are many people with similar beliefs. I guess if you want to maximize your existential value, you end up with Tiananmen Square?
By the way, it's common here in DC nowadays for people to be arrested simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time during political events.
From the cop's point of view: You are protesting. You are an asshole. Beating you up is in the natural order of things. (When you think about it, there is a lot of merit in this view.)
How to not get beat up by the cops: Don't be an asshole (in their eyes). Stay away from assholes, or be collateral.
In America, we have the fundamental right to be assholes. If the police can beat you up for being an asshole, rather than breaking a law and resisting arrest, well, see, that's a problem.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:54 PM on September 2, 2004
Please, in 2004, people with any of the following are not politically persuasive: Body piercings, lip or nose piercings Tatoos Smoking Dreadlocks BusHitler decals
Women with armpit hair People with speech pattern indicative of drug-induced brain damage
Yow! Why don't you just come right out and say: Anybody who does not look/ sound/ act just like me is not politically persuasive.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:08 PM on September 2, 2004
Women with armpit hair People with speech pattern indicative of drug-induced brain damage
Yow! Why don't you just come right out and say: Anybody who does not look/ sound/ act just like me is not politically persuasive.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:08 PM on September 2, 2004
When Nerds Protest The RNC.
Fwiw, just copied and pasted the link for all you "smacks" out there.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:21 PM on September 2, 2004
Fwiw, just copied and pasted the link for all you "smacks" out there.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:21 PM on September 2, 2004
25 years for hanging a political sign. That doesn't sound like Red China at all...
I missed the part in the article that said he was sentenced for 25 years.
posted by Stauf at 5:14 PM on September 2, 2004
I missed the part in the article that said he was sentenced for 25 years.
posted by Stauf at 5:14 PM on September 2, 2004
A link of interest: Get to know your protesting rights [PDF] which explains some nice things about police tricks (but it could be expanded as I don't see any tactic to avoid police moving you so that you block the entrance to buildings etc) and more intersting tricks. That's useful even if you don't go protesting (better prepare for police state, just in case...)
posted by elpapacito at 5:16 PM on September 2, 2004
posted by elpapacito at 5:16 PM on September 2, 2004
sinner, I'm glad you saw the humor because I saw bigotry there.
Amen. Paris "I am a registered Democrat" Paramus is showing his true colors here all over the blue today.
posted by psmealey at 5:23 PM on September 2, 2004
Amen. Paris "I am a registered Democrat" Paramus is showing his true colors here all over the blue today.
posted by psmealey at 5:23 PM on September 2, 2004
Surely it's inexcusable to arrest people simply because they were "in the wrong place at the wrong time". Shouldn't someone's arse get fired over this?
posted by krisjohn at 5:29 PM on September 2, 2004
posted by krisjohn at 5:29 PM on September 2, 2004
... with stupid tricks like smoke bombs and ball bearings hidden in protest signs, I'm sure the Police were on edge - they just weren't taking any chances and most likely not acting appropriate in all cases. That's not an excuse, just a reality.
posted by tomplus2 at 6:14 PM on September 2, 2004
posted by tomplus2 at 6:14 PM on September 2, 2004
Personally, I don't like to see a whole section of the city cordoned off and controlled by the police
You'd prefer a crowd of half a million with no police presence, then?
I'd prefer they join us... Considering how there about 6000 less of them in NYC and like 6 firehouses shut down due to little or no support from W, maybe NYC cops and firefighters should join in to protest this administration. Imagine that! :)
posted by LouReedsSon at 6:26 PM on September 2, 2004
You'd prefer a crowd of half a million with no police presence, then?
I'd prefer they join us... Considering how there about 6000 less of them in NYC and like 6 firehouses shut down due to little or no support from W, maybe NYC cops and firefighters should join in to protest this administration. Imagine that! :)
posted by LouReedsSon at 6:26 PM on September 2, 2004
LRS, I'd agree with you there. And I did see some firefighters in the crowd and even talked with one of 'em about my buddy who was a former FDNY paramedic. I'd be surprised if there weren't a few off-duty cops in the crowd, too.
I was just saying that in a crowd that large there is a need for some crowd control.
posted by jonmc at 6:31 PM on September 2, 2004
I was just saying that in a crowd that large there is a need for some crowd control.
posted by jonmc at 6:31 PM on September 2, 2004
Reminds me of something my Dad told me. He was a student at Berkeley from '60-64 (but an engineering student-nerd, who went on to work for the military industrial complex for the vast majority of his life, not a hippie). One of the fledgling protest groups held a meeting in his dorm, which was subsequently the subject of a House Unamerican Activites Committee investigation. He said that much of the portrayal of events by the HUAC was blatantly false, and he knew it because he was there...
posted by ehintz at 6:38 PM on September 2, 2004
posted by ehintz at 6:38 PM on September 2, 2004
Did anyone else just get finished watching Larry King with the three generations of Bushes? Can you believe George Bush Sr's grandson's name? PIERCE BUSH! (who just started at georgetown, watch your skirts, ladies)
I can't believe that was on purpose. Why don't they just name him Penetrate or something?
I love that it was probably an attempt at sounding regal but they're such a stupid collection of idiots they couldn't even see the pun.
posted by Peter H at 6:39 PM on September 2, 2004
I can't believe that was on purpose. Why don't they just name him Penetrate or something?
I love that it was probably an attempt at sounding regal but they're such a stupid collection of idiots they couldn't even see the pun.
posted by Peter H at 6:39 PM on September 2, 2004
I love that it was probably an attempt at sounding regal but they're such a stupid collection of idiots they couldn't even see the pun.
Are you for real?
posted by loquax at 7:04 PM on September 2, 2004
Are you for real?
posted by loquax at 7:04 PM on September 2, 2004
Are you for real?
Yes, I think naming their kid Pierce was something of an attempt to sound British, but grouped with Bush it is a white trash lottery winner's accidental phrasing that is interpreted as dick aggresively stabs in vagina. What's confusing?
Now if you'll excuse me I've got to return to watching Idiot McLispass lie to delegullibles. (he's talking about soft-bigotry right now and low expectations - FUCK HE JUST SPOKE IN SPANISH! sorry for the play by play but Bush is in rare dishonest form right now)
posted by Peter H at 7:36 PM on September 2, 2004
Yes, I think naming their kid Pierce was something of an attempt to sound British, but grouped with Bush it is a white trash lottery winner's accidental phrasing that is interpreted as dick aggresively stabs in vagina. What's confusing?
Now if you'll excuse me I've got to return to watching Idiot McLispass lie to delegullibles. (he's talking about soft-bigotry right now and low expectations - FUCK HE JUST SPOKE IN SPANISH! sorry for the play by play but Bush is in rare dishonest form right now)
posted by Peter H at 7:36 PM on September 2, 2004
Pete, relax. You sound crazed. At the very least, your "insults" could be a mite wittier and less offensive than "white trash", "stupid idiots" and "Idiot McLispass".
Flip over to TBS or something, I think there's a Seinfeld rerun on. And shouldn't you be in bed? It's a school night.
posted by loquax at 7:43 PM on September 2, 2004
Flip over to TBS or something, I think there's a Seinfeld rerun on. And shouldn't you be in bed? It's a school night.
posted by loquax at 7:43 PM on September 2, 2004
(play by play continuing)
Great, Bush is now playing Jeff Foxworthy's "YOU MIGHT BE A REDNECK if ...." but he's rephrasing it to "KERRY, YOU MIGHT NOT BE A COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVE if ...."
I'm serious. Who writes this shit! What a lout.
posted by Peter H at 7:45 PM on September 2, 2004
Great, Bush is now playing Jeff Foxworthy's "YOU MIGHT BE A REDNECK if ...." but he's rephrasing it to "KERRY, YOU MIGHT NOT BE A COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVE if ...."
I'm serious. Who writes this shit! What a lout.
posted by Peter H at 7:45 PM on September 2, 2004
Oh and lowquacks ... You really wanna make out? In front of everyone like this?
(puts on lipstick)
posted by Peter H at 7:53 PM on September 2, 2004
(puts on lipstick)
posted by Peter H at 7:53 PM on September 2, 2004
(play by play)
BUSH IS TALKING ABOUT THE WRONGS OF KILLING THE INNOCENT
(leans out the window, hears the whole speechless)
posted by Peter H at 8:02 PM on September 2, 2004
BUSH IS TALKING ABOUT THE WRONGS OF KILLING THE INNOCENT
(leans out the window, hears the whole speechless)
posted by Peter H at 8:02 PM on September 2, 2004
(more play by play)
"some people see me and say I have a swagger. Well in Texas they call that walking" — George W. Bush
Well, george, I am in Texas, and in Texas what we call you is a carpet bagger.
posted by Peter H at 8:08 PM on September 2, 2004
"some people see me and say I have a swagger. Well in Texas they call that walking" — George W. Bush
Well, george, I am in Texas, and in Texas what we call you is a carpet bagger.
posted by Peter H at 8:08 PM on September 2, 2004
From the Christian Science Monitor link:
As of this writing, during the RNC there have been 1,786 arrests. By way of contrast in Boston, the police arrested six protesters.
posted by jonp72 at 9:44 PM on September 2, 2004
As of this writing, during the RNC there have been 1,786 arrests. By way of contrast in Boston, the police arrested six protesters.
posted by jonp72 at 9:44 PM on September 2, 2004
1,786 arrests
Why, about 1300 more arrests, and they'll have one arrest
for every murder Bush caused from Sept. 11
posted by Peter H at 9:48 PM on September 2, 2004
Why, about 1300 more arrests, and they'll have one arrest
for every murder Bush caused from Sept. 11
posted by Peter H at 9:48 PM on September 2, 2004
Faze: Resistance defines your protest. To whine about it is disingenuous.
I worry when political dissent requires violent action on either side of the conflict. It becomes difficult to separate cause and effect. Why are troublemakers tolerated amongst the ranks of the protesters? Would the troublemakers not be there if not for the cops they knew would also be there?
The growing unrest ultimately affects most those not even directly involved. When standing in solidarity means that some knucklehead is going to throw the rock that is going to hit the cop who will eventually bust my head in, I don't want to participate in that form of democracy anymore.
When we get to the point that cops are using death rays and batons, we've crossed a line. Its polarizing, hearing the stories coming out of the RNC. Forces you to make a call about protestors and police and the message they are getting their heads bashed in* for.
I fear for a future where the regular boilovers have been bullied out of the populace. What happens when a group the size of Seattle WTO, the last really good riot here in the US, doesn't boil over and simmer down like that? Where does that energy go? Are we just creating a larger pressure cooker that will explode all the mightier the next time around?
* note: "bashed in" is metaphorical for heavy-handed police/protestor tactics of all sorts, not just the literal bashing of heads.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:35 PM on September 2, 2004
I worry when political dissent requires violent action on either side of the conflict. It becomes difficult to separate cause and effect. Why are troublemakers tolerated amongst the ranks of the protesters? Would the troublemakers not be there if not for the cops they knew would also be there?
The growing unrest ultimately affects most those not even directly involved. When standing in solidarity means that some knucklehead is going to throw the rock that is going to hit the cop who will eventually bust my head in, I don't want to participate in that form of democracy anymore.
When we get to the point that cops are using death rays and batons, we've crossed a line. Its polarizing, hearing the stories coming out of the RNC. Forces you to make a call about protestors and police and the message they are getting their heads bashed in* for.
I fear for a future where the regular boilovers have been bullied out of the populace. What happens when a group the size of Seattle WTO, the last really good riot here in the US, doesn't boil over and simmer down like that? Where does that energy go? Are we just creating a larger pressure cooker that will explode all the mightier the next time around?
* note: "bashed in" is metaphorical for heavy-handed police/protestor tactics of all sorts, not just the literal bashing of heads.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:35 PM on September 2, 2004
Also interesting NLG Writ of Habeas Corpus [PDF] from which we learn that 1541 persons were arrested during the RNC NYC Protest ; among them at least one youngster who required life-or-death daily drugs (that afaik are confiscated when one is arrested) and allegedly didn't receive any medical attention from police.
Also it appears that Pier 57 facility in which the arrested were detained was already listed as an area subject to Asbestos exposure and that people detained may have been exposed to toxic chemicals : no wonder, as the Pier is an ex bus depot ..anybody who visited any garage that isn't regularly cleaned knows the distinct foul smell of garages and wouldn't probably spend an hour in it let alone 24 sitting on a oily floor.
While I would excuse the arresting officers for being ignorant (most of them fall, im my opinion, in the "grunt" soldier level of army) and for being ordered to move people like UPS moves packages it seems that Pier 57 was the least place in which a responsible officier-in-command would place arrested people ; the "bucket" goes to whoever choosed that place and to administration who probably didn't bother to double check the location : after all that human cattle hippies need some hard lovin', some one in charge may have tought.
It's that attitude of "if you're protesting vehemently you're against us therefore you are inferior" which creeps among some people which disturbs me, as much as the prejudice that "all cops are pigs".
posted by elpapacito at 6:47 AM on September 3, 2004
Also it appears that Pier 57 facility in which the arrested were detained was already listed as an area subject to Asbestos exposure and that people detained may have been exposed to toxic chemicals : no wonder, as the Pier is an ex bus depot ..anybody who visited any garage that isn't regularly cleaned knows the distinct foul smell of garages and wouldn't probably spend an hour in it let alone 24 sitting on a oily floor.
While I would excuse the arresting officers for being ignorant (most of them fall, im my opinion, in the "grunt" soldier level of army) and for being ordered to move people like UPS moves packages it seems that Pier 57 was the least place in which a responsible officier-in-command would place arrested people ; the "bucket" goes to whoever choosed that place and to administration who probably didn't bother to double check the location : after all that human cattle hippies need some hard lovin', some one in charge may have tought.
It's that attitude of "if you're protesting vehemently you're against us therefore you are inferior" which creeps among some people which disturbs me, as much as the prejudice that "all cops are pigs".
posted by elpapacito at 6:47 AM on September 3, 2004
You protest, you assume the risk of getting arrested. You also assume the risk that you will not be housed at the Waldorf or Plaza. Shut up, and get arrested, or don't protest.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:12 AM on September 3, 2004
posted by ParisParamus at 7:12 AM on September 3, 2004
Or, more precisely, shut up after you've protested and get arrested; yell your ass off during the protest.
I seriously question the judgment of people who think playing up their freaky side is going to endear them to undecided voters, or not just mobilize the "enemy" to vote in larger numbers; who is the enemy? Perhaps the 4 million evangelical voters who stayed home in 2000 (heard this on the tv last night).
posted by ParisParamus at 7:35 AM on September 3, 2004
I seriously question the judgment of people who think playing up their freaky side is going to endear them to undecided voters, or not just mobilize the "enemy" to vote in larger numbers; who is the enemy? Perhaps the 4 million evangelical voters who stayed home in 2000 (heard this on the tv last night).
posted by ParisParamus at 7:35 AM on September 3, 2004
You protest, you assume the risk of getting arrested. You also assume the risk that you will not be housed at the Waldorf or Plaza. Shut up, and get arrested, or don't protest.
Tell us more about this wonderful 'freedom' you wish to export to the rest of the world.
posted by biffa at 7:53 AM on September 3, 2004
Tell us more about this wonderful 'freedom' you wish to export to the rest of the world.
posted by biffa at 7:53 AM on September 3, 2004
It's the freedom to protest your ass off, but risk being arrested by police for disorderly conduct; to be detained for a while in a somewhat musty detention center, counseled by some attorneys, and released in some number of hours, with your "street cred" enhanced.
Strikes me as better than having once's right to protest be chilled by British libel laws, eh?
(It also sounds better to me that getting hit with a stone during a protest in Paris a few years ago (while trying to get somewhere).
posted by ParisParamus at 8:03 AM on September 3, 2004
Strikes me as better than having once's right to protest be chilled by British libel laws, eh?
(It also sounds better to me that getting hit with a stone during a protest in Paris a few years ago (while trying to get somewhere).
posted by ParisParamus at 8:03 AM on September 3, 2004
Judge orders release of protesters, holds NYC in contempt for not complying and imposes a half-a-mill. fine.
And that's that.
posted by magullo at 8:12 AM on September 3, 2004
And that's that.
posted by magullo at 8:12 AM on September 3, 2004
It's the freedom to protest your ass off, but risk being arrested by police for disorderly conduct; to be detained for a while in a somewhat musty detention center, counseled by some attorneys, and released in some number of hours, with your "street cred" enhanced.
Disorderly conduct isn't a crime in the US then? Is that why there are no charges? How where the people who were rounded up for just being in the area doing anything worthy of arrest?
Strikes me as better than having once's right to protest be chilled by British libel laws, eh?
You have to lie about someone to have a problem with libel. Can you give any examples of problems where protestors who have not lied have fallen foul of libel laws in the UK?
posted by biffa at 8:54 AM on September 3, 2004
Disorderly conduct isn't a crime in the US then? Is that why there are no charges? How where the people who were rounded up for just being in the area doing anything worthy of arrest?
Strikes me as better than having once's right to protest be chilled by British libel laws, eh?
You have to lie about someone to have a problem with libel. Can you give any examples of problems where protestors who have not lied have fallen foul of libel laws in the UK?
posted by biffa at 8:54 AM on September 3, 2004
New York during the Republican National Convention has been a town of strong elbows. NYPD's orders translate to “No mercy,” and following orders is the job -- as the author found Tuesday night, when she was thrown in the slammer at Pier 57.
posted by homunculus at 9:02 AM on September 4, 2004
posted by homunculus at 9:02 AM on September 4, 2004
... here's another first-person account.
"I have an interesting conversation with a young Republican from Boston who somehow got himself a trespassing charge for wandering into the wrong part of Madison Square Garden during the convention. He claims he was interrogated, punched in the face by his interrogators and shipped off to Gitmo on the Hudson to hang with us hippie anarchist protester types."
You protest, you assume the risk of getting arrested.
what about taking pictures of a protest? i can't believe how anyone with an ounce of logic could defend the police here.
"Bruce Bentley, of the National Lawyers’ Guild, which is sending green-capped “legal observers” on to the streets to document police behaviour, said that 14 of its monitors had been arrested in the police dragnet."
very scary.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:39 PM on September 7, 2004
"I have an interesting conversation with a young Republican from Boston who somehow got himself a trespassing charge for wandering into the wrong part of Madison Square Garden during the convention. He claims he was interrogated, punched in the face by his interrogators and shipped off to Gitmo on the Hudson to hang with us hippie anarchist protester types."
You protest, you assume the risk of getting arrested.
what about taking pictures of a protest? i can't believe how anyone with an ounce of logic could defend the police here.
"Bruce Bentley, of the National Lawyers’ Guild, which is sending green-capped “legal observers” on to the streets to document police behaviour, said that 14 of its monitors had been arrested in the police dragnet."
very scary.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:39 PM on September 7, 2004
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I definitely think the police step over the line often, but in NYC I don't think they want to arrest more people than they have to. There's more paperwork, more protesting (due to the arrest) and more of a chance that arrest will cause something else to get out of control.
I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened, but I'm always wary of stores from someone who has much to gain by saying something that can't be verified and nothing to gain by saying the police were being reasonable and honest.
posted by zelphi at 10:51 AM on September 2, 2004