Suicide over Bush re-election
November 7, 2004 9:49 PM Subscribe
A little over the top? I know some people are depressed but......this?
Can we skip the obligatory link to the threads at LGF/Free Republic where people are cheering and being snarky?
posted by argybarg at 10:02 PM on November 7, 2004
posted by argybarg at 10:02 PM on November 7, 2004
Damn... He was likely distraught over more than just the election. At least, I hope so. I suppose it is nice that he felt strongly enough to make a point by taking his life in a symbolic locale. If you're going to kill yourself, might as well make a statement in the process, ya know.
There are a ton of folks here that are very opposed to suicide, so get ready for the deluge of "suicide is stupid" and "suicide is selfish" comments coupled with anti/pro Bush snarkiness.
I wonder if Bush's reelection will result in a trend towards Suicide Clubs...
posted by shoepal at 10:11 PM on November 7, 2004
There are a ton of folks here that are very opposed to suicide, so get ready for the deluge of "suicide is stupid" and "suicide is selfish" comments coupled with anti/pro Bush snarkiness.
I wonder if Bush's reelection will result in a trend towards Suicide Clubs...
posted by shoepal at 10:11 PM on November 7, 2004
yes, i'm appalled at the mass of hari-kari committing progressives littering the 9/11 site with thier pustulent corpses, a hallowed site where so many brave patriots died protecting america from saddam.
posted by quonsar at 10:13 PM on November 7, 2004
posted by quonsar at 10:13 PM on November 7, 2004
Weird...that kid worked in a department at school with me, though I never knew him.
posted by jmd82 at 10:18 PM on November 7, 2004
posted by jmd82 at 10:18 PM on November 7, 2004
jesus hates a quitter. he should have moved to canada instead.
posted by The God Complex at 10:21 PM on November 7, 2004
posted by The God Complex at 10:21 PM on November 7, 2004
small world, eh jmd82? Weird indeed.
Suicide is stupid and selfish and Bush sucks ass except when he's defending the free world from terrorism, which is why I voted for him even tho Kerry would have made a better President.
/satisfyingshoepal
posted by ashbury at 10:22 PM on November 7, 2004
Suicide is stupid and selfish and Bush sucks ass except when he's defending the free world from terrorism, which is why I voted for him even tho Kerry would have made a better President.
/satisfyingshoepal
posted by ashbury at 10:22 PM on November 7, 2004
no... didn't you hear ashbury... kerry flip-flops and that's the bottom line... even though he never actually flip-flopped on the war... and even though by flip-flop they actually mean 'takes a complex approach to complex issues'... but whatever....
Just kidding! Kinda.
Seriously though, I don't know why someone would commit suicide just because of that. There has to be something else to push someone who is about to get married over the edge, some sort of psychological issue. I had a two-and-a-half year relationship end nine days before the election, got sick and missed a midterm, and had some punk kids slash my tires when I can ill afford to pay for replacements (just bought them six months ago), but I'm not about to go all Richie Tenenbaum on the ghost of the twin towers.
But if I did, I'd like to think quonsar would give me some of that beautiful elegaic prose.
posted by The God Complex at 10:28 PM on November 7, 2004
Just kidding! Kinda.
Seriously though, I don't know why someone would commit suicide just because of that. There has to be something else to push someone who is about to get married over the edge, some sort of psychological issue. I had a two-and-a-half year relationship end nine days before the election, got sick and missed a midterm, and had some punk kids slash my tires when I can ill afford to pay for replacements (just bought them six months ago), but I'm not about to go all Richie Tenenbaum on the ghost of the twin towers.
But if I did, I'd like to think quonsar would give me some of that beautiful elegaic prose.
posted by The God Complex at 10:28 PM on November 7, 2004
All that said, this almost makes me want to do it. Maybe if I was an American I would have hurled myself from the Chrysler building clutching a blood-stained bible.
posted by The God Complex at 10:42 PM on November 7, 2004
posted by The God Complex at 10:42 PM on November 7, 2004
There has to be something else to push someone...
Well, almost by definition, people who commit suicide obviously have to have something not-quite-right in their heads, independent of what the final trigger may be.
U.S. progressive, it doesn't have to be like this. Really. I reccomend you take a bit of time out - take a holiday, buy some new CDs, get a dog, cancel your subscriptions to cable news channels and quit hitting refresh on Daily Kos twice an hour. Take a bit of time away from all this and relax. I don't mean give up on politics all together - I just mean for you to recognise that the world's still a great place, and you shouldn't give the evil fuck in the Whitehouse credit by continuing your obsession with him. Take a little time out to regroup, avoid some stomach ulcers and pointless online debates, and come back stronger than ever ready for the next battle. Above all else, don't go and top yourself. We can't abide quitters.
posted by Jimbob at 10:46 PM on November 7, 2004
Well, almost by definition, people who commit suicide obviously have to have something not-quite-right in their heads, independent of what the final trigger may be.
U.S. progressive, it doesn't have to be like this. Really. I reccomend you take a bit of time out - take a holiday, buy some new CDs, get a dog, cancel your subscriptions to cable news channels and quit hitting refresh on Daily Kos twice an hour. Take a bit of time away from all this and relax. I don't mean give up on politics all together - I just mean for you to recognise that the world's still a great place, and you shouldn't give the evil fuck in the Whitehouse credit by continuing your obsession with him. Take a little time out to regroup, avoid some stomach ulcers and pointless online debates, and come back stronger than ever ready for the next battle. Above all else, don't go and top yourself. We can't abide quitters.
posted by Jimbob at 10:46 PM on November 7, 2004
Well, almost by definition, people who commit suicide obviously have to have something not-quite-right in their heads, independent of what the final trigger may be.
Very true.
Which means the rest of your cheerleading is meaningless to someone who is suicidal, no matter if the president is, as you eloquently put it, an 'evil fuck'.
posted by justgary at 11:14 PM on November 7, 2004
Very true.
Which means the rest of your cheerleading is meaningless to someone who is suicidal, no matter if the president is, as you eloquently put it, an 'evil fuck'.
posted by justgary at 11:14 PM on November 7, 2004
Well, almost by definition, people who commit suicide obviously have to have something not-quite-right in their heads, independent of what the final trigger may be.
Nonsense. Would you call someone who has some lethal illness and is in serious pain who decides they'd rather not suffer any longer "not quite right in their head"?
The issue isn't that black and white.
posted by fvw at 11:37 PM on November 7, 2004
Nonsense. Would you call someone who has some lethal illness and is in serious pain who decides they'd rather not suffer any longer "not quite right in their head"?
The issue isn't that black and white.
posted by fvw at 11:37 PM on November 7, 2004
Damn, next thing you know Bush is going to try and amend the Constitution to make protest suicides illegal.
fvw, suicides and suicide attempts are never black and white. You're right.
quonsar, that's right, that's one more vote we'll need to oust the retard in four years.
posted by fenriq at 9:11 AM on November 8, 2004
fvw, suicides and suicide attempts are never black and white. You're right.
quonsar, that's right, that's one more vote we'll need to oust the retard in four years.
posted by fenriq at 9:11 AM on November 8, 2004
If he really wanted to make a statement he should've taken some Bush supporters with him.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:15 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:15 AM on November 8, 2004
Gothamist has a bunch of links, including one suggesting it was about his relationship with his girlfriend.
Either way, a hotel at Ground Zero strikes me as just about the last place you should be if you're feeling suicidal. The scenes from Spike Lee's 25th Hour still stick in my head.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:17 AM on November 8, 2004
Either way, a hotel at Ground Zero strikes me as just about the last place you should be if you're feeling suicidal. The scenes from Spike Lee's 25th Hour still stick in my head.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:17 AM on November 8, 2004
people who commit suicide obviously have to have something not-quite-right in their heads
Ain't tolerance grand?
posted by rushmc at 9:18 AM on November 8, 2004
Ain't tolerance grand?
posted by rushmc at 9:18 AM on November 8, 2004
I keep thinking that this was disrespectful to the families of those who lost their lives there. No matter where any of them stood on the political spectrum.
posted by konolia at 9:18 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by konolia at 9:18 AM on November 8, 2004
I was going to suggest that maybe it would be kind to consider the snarkiness quota met in this thread, but I see that Christian compassion has already trumped that.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:23 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:23 AM on November 8, 2004
I keep thinking that this was disrespectful to the families of those who lost their lives there. No matter where any of them stood on the political spectrum.
posted by PrinceValium at 9:36 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by PrinceValium at 9:36 AM on November 8, 2004
I read the MoFi post on this, and this was a young man who had so much going for him. I wish he had sought help instead of doing this. Such a waste.
posted by orange swan at 9:37 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by orange swan at 9:37 AM on November 8, 2004
I just got off the elevator here at work where three people were having a good laugh over this:
"What good's it gonna do him now, he's dead" Har Har Har.
"Yeah, what did he think they would recall the election" Har Har Har.
I think I've lost whatever faith I had in human beings.
posted by Otis at 9:41 AM on November 8, 2004
"What good's it gonna do him now, he's dead" Har Har Har.
"Yeah, what did he think they would recall the election" Har Har Har.
I think I've lost whatever faith I had in human beings.
posted by Otis at 9:41 AM on November 8, 2004
konolia - Fuck off. For a Christian you seem to have very little compassion for others.
posted by bshort at 9:44 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by bshort at 9:44 AM on November 8, 2004
Otis, do you work in hell? Because those assholes have no souls.
posted by fenriq at 9:52 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by fenriq at 9:52 AM on November 8, 2004
Pile-on Jimbob!
Well, almost by definition, people who commit suicide obviously have to have something not-quite-right in their heads, independent of what the final trigger may be.
Weren't you ever a teenager? :P
Also, nobody is 100% quite right in their heads; everybody, no matter how well-adjusted or normal they appear, has some sort of mental malady they have to deal with. It's part of the human condition.
Some people just lack the self-control necessary to prevent oneself from going through with the suicidal thoughts that everyone's had at one point or another. Is that bad? Certainly, but it doesn't necessarily mean the person is/was a complete nutjob.
I guess my point is simply that, while successful suicide 'victims' (odd term to use but it's the usual one) may well have honest-to-goodness mental illnesses, simply writing all of them off as crazies is disingenous and disrespectful.
On preview: bshort, konolia's remark was kind of one-sided (as XQZYPHYR pointed out) but regardless of how it was intended, it doesn't merit that kind of response, bro. Try to clam down :/
posted by cyrusdogstar at 9:53 AM on November 8, 2004
Well, almost by definition, people who commit suicide obviously have to have something not-quite-right in their heads, independent of what the final trigger may be.
Weren't you ever a teenager? :P
Also, nobody is 100% quite right in their heads; everybody, no matter how well-adjusted or normal they appear, has some sort of mental malady they have to deal with. It's part of the human condition.
Some people just lack the self-control necessary to prevent oneself from going through with the suicidal thoughts that everyone's had at one point or another. Is that bad? Certainly, but it doesn't necessarily mean the person is/was a complete nutjob.
I guess my point is simply that, while successful suicide 'victims' (odd term to use but it's the usual one) may well have honest-to-goodness mental illnesses, simply writing all of them off as crazies is disingenous and disrespectful.
On preview: bshort, konolia's remark was kind of one-sided (as XQZYPHYR pointed out) but regardless of how it was intended, it doesn't merit that kind of response, bro. Try to clam down :/
posted by cyrusdogstar at 9:53 AM on November 8, 2004
It's sad that a troubled young man killed himself. The Bush and 9/11 connections are red herrings as far as I'm concerned, about as significant as a Judas Preist record on a turntable.
But, I think you all know that, but would rather continue having the same old brawl.
posted by jonmc at 10:01 AM on November 8, 2004
But, I think you all know that, but would rather continue having the same old brawl.
posted by jonmc at 10:01 AM on November 8, 2004
Ain't tolerance grand?
I hope that's some kind of joke rush. I doubt you know the meaning of the word. What he said, in so many words is correct. Nothing to do with tolerance.
Also, nobody is 100% quite right in their heads; everybody, no matter how well-adjusted or normal they appear, has some sort of mental malady they have to deal with. It's part of the human condition.
Oh please. There is a difference between teen age blues and killing yourself, which is NOT part of the human condition.
Now we know, like politics, mefi doesn't do suicide very well either.
posted by justgary at 10:09 AM on November 8, 2004
I hope that's some kind of joke rush. I doubt you know the meaning of the word. What he said, in so many words is correct. Nothing to do with tolerance.
Also, nobody is 100% quite right in their heads; everybody, no matter how well-adjusted or normal they appear, has some sort of mental malady they have to deal with. It's part of the human condition.
Oh please. There is a difference between teen age blues and killing yourself, which is NOT part of the human condition.
Now we know, like politics, mefi doesn't do suicide very well either.
posted by justgary at 10:09 AM on November 8, 2004
I think I've lost whatever faith I had in human beings.
That implies that you some faith in human beings in the first place, and I have to ask, what justified that? Just off hand, we have a self-proclaimed evangelical critiquing a distraught young person for not being reverential enough in his location choice of where to commit suicide, as well as a few references already to some people who are callous enough to be having a good belly laugh about it.
I think The Right is correct in that we are morally bankrupt in this country. Thing is, they just don't seem to be willing to admit that they are every bit a much part and parcel of that depravity as anyone on the left.
posted by psmealey at 10:09 AM on November 8, 2004
That implies that you some faith in human beings in the first place, and I have to ask, what justified that? Just off hand, we have a self-proclaimed evangelical critiquing a distraught young person for not being reverential enough in his location choice of where to commit suicide, as well as a few references already to some people who are callous enough to be having a good belly laugh about it.
I think The Right is correct in that we are morally bankrupt in this country. Thing is, they just don't seem to be willing to admit that they are every bit a much part and parcel of that depravity as anyone on the left.
posted by psmealey at 10:09 AM on November 8, 2004
Excuse me. Back in the late seventies I myself was getting my stomach pumped after a suicide attempt.
I understand all too well the " screw you" aspect that can be part of suicidal ideation. (And SI is also a symptom of the disorder I have. I do have to fight it still sometimes.)
I also understand the pain of losing a friend or a loved one, and something like this can rip the scabs off a whole lot of wounded hearts.
posted by konolia at 10:12 AM on November 8, 2004
I understand all too well the " screw you" aspect that can be part of suicidal ideation. (And SI is also a symptom of the disorder I have. I do have to fight it still sometimes.)
I also understand the pain of losing a friend or a loved one, and something like this can rip the scabs off a whole lot of wounded hearts.
posted by konolia at 10:12 AM on November 8, 2004
Excuse me. Back in the late seventies I myself was getting my stomach pumped after a suicide attempt.
Which does not give you a free pass to be callous and unkind with regards to suicide (in fact, one would expect the opposite)--just as the fact that you one took a gay man to the prom doesn't excuse your homophobia.
posted by jpoulos at 10:20 AM on November 8, 2004
Which does not give you a free pass to be callous and unkind with regards to suicide (in fact, one would expect the opposite)--just as the fact that you one took a gay man to the prom doesn't excuse your homophobia.
posted by jpoulos at 10:20 AM on November 8, 2004
Actually, the common belief now is that suicide IS almost always due to some kind of mental illness (usually including depression -- minor or severe). Suicides don't deserve the label "nut job" but they certainly need help of the therapeutic, possibly medicinal kind.
I worked for six years doing clerical/design work for the NY State Psych Center. This doesn't mean much, other than I did a hell of a lot of reading about suicide and suicide prevention.
posted by papercake at 10:21 AM on November 8, 2004
I worked for six years doing clerical/design work for the NY State Psych Center. This doesn't mean much, other than I did a hell of a lot of reading about suicide and suicide prevention.
posted by papercake at 10:21 AM on November 8, 2004
Actually, the common belief now is that suicide IS almost always due to some kind of mental illness
Doesn't that depend on how you define "illness"? I'm not a mental health professional, but it appears to me that it's not a binary choice--"mentally ill" vs "mentally healthy"--just a physical ailments run a gamut. (I have a stiff back this morning--it's not a disease, per se, but I'm not perfectly healthy either. I think we tend to assign labels where they don't necessarily belong.
posted by jpoulos at 10:27 AM on November 8, 2004
Doesn't that depend on how you define "illness"? I'm not a mental health professional, but it appears to me that it's not a binary choice--"mentally ill" vs "mentally healthy"--just a physical ailments run a gamut. (I have a stiff back this morning--it's not a disease, per se, but I'm not perfectly healthy either. I think we tend to assign labels where they don't necessarily belong.
posted by jpoulos at 10:27 AM on November 8, 2004
Doesn't that depend on how you define "illness"?
Fair enough. I think that defining mental illness can be very difficult and certainly can be abused -- the line is often not clear between a benign and dangerous set of behaviors. However, I do think that it can be a useful and constructive thing to give a name to a collection of problems and behaviors in order to understand and begin to be able to treat it -- such as the difference between "depressed" (as used in common conversation) and "Depressed" (as the DSM-IV defines it).
posted by papercake at 10:36 AM on November 8, 2004
Fair enough. I think that defining mental illness can be very difficult and certainly can be abused -- the line is often not clear between a benign and dangerous set of behaviors. However, I do think that it can be a useful and constructive thing to give a name to a collection of problems and behaviors in order to understand and begin to be able to treat it -- such as the difference between "depressed" (as used in common conversation) and "Depressed" (as the DSM-IV defines it).
posted by papercake at 10:36 AM on November 8, 2004
Not mental illness generally, but depression specifically.
As far as I'm aware, this is true. Contemporary clinical psychology views suicide as the inevitable conclusion of unchecked or untreated severe depression. It is true that such depression can be triggered by an event, such as a long term debilitating illness or it can be from emotional distress or chemical imbalance, but the lines are pretty strongly drawn from depression to suicide.
I'll look up the numbers on this, as it has been 10 years or so since I looked it up, but as far as I can remember, "other" causes for suicide (honor or juvenile revenge) are statistically insignificant (1 in 10,000 or 20,000), but they do happen.
posted by psmealey at 10:40 AM on November 8, 2004
As far as I'm aware, this is true. Contemporary clinical psychology views suicide as the inevitable conclusion of unchecked or untreated severe depression. It is true that such depression can be triggered by an event, such as a long term debilitating illness or it can be from emotional distress or chemical imbalance, but the lines are pretty strongly drawn from depression to suicide.
I'll look up the numbers on this, as it has been 10 years or so since I looked it up, but as far as I can remember, "other" causes for suicide (honor or juvenile revenge) are statistically insignificant (1 in 10,000 or 20,000), but they do happen.
posted by psmealey at 10:40 AM on November 8, 2004
Excuse me. Back in the late seventies I myself was getting my stomach pumped after a suicide attempt.
Actually, that doesn't excuse you from anything. I sure hope you carefully chose the location of your suicide attempt so as not to offend anybody. Otherwise some might accuse you of being the worst sort of hypocrite.
I also understand the pain of losing a friend or a loved one, and something like this can rip the scabs off a whole lot of wounded hearts.
No, apparently you don't. Maybe it's time for your next exorcism.
posted by bshort at 10:49 AM on November 8, 2004
Actually, that doesn't excuse you from anything. I sure hope you carefully chose the location of your suicide attempt so as not to offend anybody. Otherwise some might accuse you of being the worst sort of hypocrite.
I also understand the pain of losing a friend or a loved one, and something like this can rip the scabs off a whole lot of wounded hearts.
No, apparently you don't. Maybe it's time for your next exorcism.
posted by bshort at 10:49 AM on November 8, 2004
Which does not give you a free pass to be callous and unkind with regards to suicide (in fact, one would expect the opposite)--just as the fact that you one took a gay man to the prom doesn't excuse your homophobia.
You took my statement to be callous. It was not meant to be so, and in any case the young man is past being hurt by anything I or anyone else have to say. My concern is for the living.
(not to derail, but homophobia is an inaccurate term for people who think that is sin. I am not afraid of gay people, nor am I afraid of adulterers, child molesters, or tax cheats.)
posted by konolia at 10:49 AM on November 8, 2004
You took my statement to be callous. It was not meant to be so, and in any case the young man is past being hurt by anything I or anyone else have to say. My concern is for the living.
(not to derail, but homophobia is an inaccurate term for people who think that is sin. I am not afraid of gay people, nor am I afraid of adulterers, child molesters, or tax cheats.)
posted by konolia at 10:49 AM on November 8, 2004
bshort, I invite you to the bipolar forum I frequent. Occasionally one of us is suicidal. The rest of us do things like remind the sufferer of loved ones that would be deeply hurt, etc....we understand the pain, the hurt, and the anger that grip us when the brain chemicals put us in that pit. But usually even the most suicidal of us do try to think of ways to not hurt others, as the point is to end pain not to cause more (as misguided as the thoughtprocess is at that point.) But not always.
Some of you may remember the Secondhand Suicide link posted here on the filter awhile back. I would classify that suicide (that of the blogger's husband) as being that of the "screw you" variety.
posted by konolia at 10:55 AM on November 8, 2004
Some of you may remember the Secondhand Suicide link posted here on the filter awhile back. I would classify that suicide (that of the blogger's husband) as being that of the "screw you" variety.
posted by konolia at 10:55 AM on November 8, 2004
My concern is for the living.
I certainly hope the suicide victim's family doesn't read this thread.
(The term "homophobia" has evolved to mean something besides fear. It now includes prejudice. )
posted by jpoulos at 10:55 AM on November 8, 2004
I certainly hope the suicide victim's family doesn't read this thread.
(The term "homophobia" has evolved to mean something besides fear. It now includes prejudice. )
posted by jpoulos at 10:55 AM on November 8, 2004
I certainly hope the suicide victim's family doesn't read this thread
You don't think survivors of suicide don't get angry at their dead loved ones? I beg to differ. There are quite a few of THEM at my forum too.
Look, this was a tragedy, no doubt about it. He was likely not in his "right mind", whatever that means. But his choice of location meant something. Me having an opinion on that will not affect him now, and as for his loved ones, I don't think they give a rat's hiney where he did it. THey just know he chose voluntarily to leave them. They are going to have anger to deal with as part of their process, period.
You don't think the location will lead to more grief to the families of 9/11? THAT was my main concern when I made the original post.
posted by konolia at 11:03 AM on November 8, 2004
You don't think survivors of suicide don't get angry at their dead loved ones? I beg to differ. There are quite a few of THEM at my forum too.
Look, this was a tragedy, no doubt about it. He was likely not in his "right mind", whatever that means. But his choice of location meant something. Me having an opinion on that will not affect him now, and as for his loved ones, I don't think they give a rat's hiney where he did it. THey just know he chose voluntarily to leave them. They are going to have anger to deal with as part of their process, period.
You don't think the location will lead to more grief to the families of 9/11? THAT was my main concern when I made the original post.
posted by konolia at 11:03 AM on November 8, 2004
jesus hates a quitter. he should have moved to canada instead.
Good one!
I think I hear a violin.
posted by a3matrix at 11:09 AM on November 8, 2004
And in the next thread folks, get your guns online! Oh, those crazy Americans, we love 'em!
posted by DrDoberman at 11:18 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by DrDoberman at 11:18 AM on November 8, 2004
I keep thinking that this was disrespectful to the families of those who lost their lives there ... You don't think the location will lead to more grief to the families of 9/11?
k, you have glossed over the fact that many of us find the political grandstanding that takes place on that site is just as abhorrent as any suicide. I've battled depression myself, and his choice of location unfortunately makes sense to me. I keep thinking the Republican Party may have gotten more than they bargained for by appropriating the symbols of September 11 for political gain.
posted by whatnot at 11:25 AM on November 8, 2004
k, you have glossed over the fact that many of us find the political grandstanding that takes place on that site is just as abhorrent as any suicide. I've battled depression myself, and his choice of location unfortunately makes sense to me. I keep thinking the Republican Party may have gotten more than they bargained for by appropriating the symbols of September 11 for political gain.
posted by whatnot at 11:25 AM on November 8, 2004
I keep thinking that this was disrespectful to the families of those who lost their lives there. No matter where any of them stood on the political spectrum.
k, if you're going to keep on in this vein, I'd love to hear an explanation of why the Republican necro-fest convention wasn't 100x worse.
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:34 AM on November 8, 2004
k, if you're going to keep on in this vein, I'd love to hear an explanation of why the Republican necro-fest convention wasn't 100x worse.
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:34 AM on November 8, 2004
A suicide attempt is usually triggered by what's known as the precipitating event (sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back). The PE may be completely unrelated to the real impetus, which is most often depression.
Everyone -- everyone -- is vulnerable to the type of depression that can eventually lead to a suicide attempt. The mentally ill and chronically depressed aside, a person suffering from depression will not suffer the lowest part of the depression for more than about two weeks. Oddly enough, that person is generally safe from suicide during that time because s/he simply lacks the ambition to attempt. It's only as they begin the upswing out of the depression that they regain the energy to attempt suicide. Sadly, they are still in the grip of depression and suicide seems a feasible antidote to what is ailing them.
(Sorry I don't have a link to this. I've been a volunteer on a suicide hotline for about 12 years now. This stuff is in our training, but I can't find it online.)
posted by joaquim at 11:36 AM on November 8, 2004
Everyone -- everyone -- is vulnerable to the type of depression that can eventually lead to a suicide attempt. The mentally ill and chronically depressed aside, a person suffering from depression will not suffer the lowest part of the depression for more than about two weeks. Oddly enough, that person is generally safe from suicide during that time because s/he simply lacks the ambition to attempt. It's only as they begin the upswing out of the depression that they regain the energy to attempt suicide. Sadly, they are still in the grip of depression and suicide seems a feasible antidote to what is ailing them.
(Sorry I don't have a link to this. I've been a volunteer on a suicide hotline for about 12 years now. This stuff is in our training, but I can't find it online.)
posted by joaquim at 11:36 AM on November 8, 2004
*reads thread, drives out to MeFi server, points shotgun at head*
posted by jonmc at 11:38 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by jonmc at 11:38 AM on November 8, 2004
Unless the families of those that died at the WTC are close to the man who killed himself, I don't see how this would "rip the scabs off a whole lot of wounded hearts." Sure, it's always sad to hear about someone dying - especially when that someone takes their own life, but I think it's a little melodramatic to assume that one person's self-inflicted death will send thousands back into grief, just because it happened in the same location.
posted by MsVader at 11:46 AM on November 8, 2004
posted by MsVader at 11:46 AM on November 8, 2004
*reads thread, drives out to MeFi server, points shotgun at head*
jonmc, just make sure you don't damage the server with your brain/skull fragments; we've had enough JRun problems today as it is.
posted by SpaceCadet at 11:48 AM on November 8, 2004
jonmc, just make sure you don't damage the server with your brain/skull fragments; we've had enough JRun problems today as it is.
posted by SpaceCadet at 11:48 AM on November 8, 2004
Yeah, I mean this guy wasn't exactly a flaming Buddhist monk. Just some nut who blew his head off because he didn't like the outcome of the election. Easily dismissed, because we have labels already in place for folks like that.
Feh.
posted by FormlessOne at 11:53 AM on November 8, 2004
Feh.
posted by FormlessOne at 11:53 AM on November 8, 2004
I am a mental health professional, and I have a loved one who has MI as well.
Suffering is something intensely personal. We use a wide variety of means to try and dull that pain, but the fact is a large part of it is feeling lost and alone despite how many people are there to help.
As I see it there are two big problems in the MI field today. One is the exceedingly wide range of illnesses that get lumped under "mental illness", to equate someone with a reoccurring mild case of depression with someone with a psychos is silly and not very helpful in the long run.
The second problem is related to the language and attitudes directed at people with different mental illnesses. You see it everywhere. In this thread... "nut jobs" for example, a pretty callus term, really, to describe a condition that is a disability, how about we start using all those oh-so-lovely heartfelt labels we have for everyone who is different then us? Gimp, retard, nigge.. well you get the point. Compassionate, not pity, ridicule or scorn is generally the best way to act I find.
Many feel that people with depression or other illnesses should "just pick themselves up by their bootstraps" or something else as forceful and go getting, which annoys me.. people with depression are NOT lazy by definition, nor are those who are psychotic more prone to violence. Sometimes these behaviors we see make us feel uncomfortable because they are transgressive with their actions and emotions. (That is not to say that SOME people with MI, are not lazy or are not violent, generally I find it is pretty close to the "normal" population of lazy or violent people).
In this case the young man lost the struggle with himself, which is sad. If his action is politically symbolic then let it be so and move on. _I_ don't know how the families of 9/11 would react to it, I _suspect_ some would be angry, some supportive and some indifferent...
Having said all of that, from a philosophical point of view what better way to make a statement then this? Self-immolation, for example, has a long standing practice amongst some as the ultimate political act. You may not agree with the motive (if there is one) but it is a strong statement.
posted by edgeways at 12:01 PM on November 8, 2004
Suffering is something intensely personal. We use a wide variety of means to try and dull that pain, but the fact is a large part of it is feeling lost and alone despite how many people are there to help.
As I see it there are two big problems in the MI field today. One is the exceedingly wide range of illnesses that get lumped under "mental illness", to equate someone with a reoccurring mild case of depression with someone with a psychos is silly and not very helpful in the long run.
The second problem is related to the language and attitudes directed at people with different mental illnesses. You see it everywhere. In this thread... "nut jobs" for example, a pretty callus term, really, to describe a condition that is a disability, how about we start using all those oh-so-lovely heartfelt labels we have for everyone who is different then us? Gimp, retard, nigge.. well you get the point. Compassionate, not pity, ridicule or scorn is generally the best way to act I find.
Many feel that people with depression or other illnesses should "just pick themselves up by their bootstraps" or something else as forceful and go getting, which annoys me.. people with depression are NOT lazy by definition, nor are those who are psychotic more prone to violence. Sometimes these behaviors we see make us feel uncomfortable because they are transgressive with their actions and emotions. (That is not to say that SOME people with MI, are not lazy or are not violent, generally I find it is pretty close to the "normal" population of lazy or violent people).
In this case the young man lost the struggle with himself, which is sad. If his action is politically symbolic then let it be so and move on. _I_ don't know how the families of 9/11 would react to it, I _suspect_ some would be angry, some supportive and some indifferent...
Having said all of that, from a philosophical point of view what better way to make a statement then this? Self-immolation, for example, has a long standing practice amongst some as the ultimate political act. You may not agree with the motive (if there is one) but it is a strong statement.
posted by edgeways at 12:01 PM on November 8, 2004
I swear I first read the link text as "A little off the top?" and just about spewed coffee all over my comp. It seems that even my subconscious has a morbid sense of humor.
posted by loquacious at 12:04 PM on November 8, 2004
posted by loquacious at 12:04 PM on November 8, 2004
This may, or may not be tragic. We have no crystal ball....who knows, maybe had he lived, he would have used the shotgun on everyone he works with. We don't know.
I have nothing but sympathy for those he left behind. The wounds that a suicide leaves behind are unfathomable to those who are fortunate enough to never experience it.
And while the Towers may be "symbolic" as his coworker said...we have no way of interpreting that symbolism except through our own reality filters. The jump to "He killed himself because of Bush" without a suicide note fairly reeks of sensationalism.
Maybe he had a secret lover who died in the towers. Maybe god told him to do it. Maybe the moon was in the seventh house and mercury was rising. We don't know. We can't know. Maybe all he wanted was attention, in which case, to borrow a phrase, "Mission Accomplished". An ironic victory, that.
That said, I wish for peace, calm, and understanding to find themselves in the hearts of those he left behind.
posted by dejah420 at 12:14 PM on November 8, 2004
I have nothing but sympathy for those he left behind. The wounds that a suicide leaves behind are unfathomable to those who are fortunate enough to never experience it.
And while the Towers may be "symbolic" as his coworker said...we have no way of interpreting that symbolism except through our own reality filters. The jump to "He killed himself because of Bush" without a suicide note fairly reeks of sensationalism.
Maybe he had a secret lover who died in the towers. Maybe god told him to do it. Maybe the moon was in the seventh house and mercury was rising. We don't know. We can't know. Maybe all he wanted was attention, in which case, to borrow a phrase, "Mission Accomplished". An ironic victory, that.
That said, I wish for peace, calm, and understanding to find themselves in the hearts of those he left behind.
posted by dejah420 at 12:14 PM on November 8, 2004
This may, or may not be tragic. We have no crystal ball....who knows, maybe had he lived, he would have used the shotgun on everyone he works with. We don't know.
I'm totally mystified as to why so many comments here can't seem to offer any compassion for the guy himself. He was distressed enough to commit suicide; isn't that tragic enough?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 12:38 PM on November 8, 2004
I'm totally mystified as to why so many comments here can't seem to offer any compassion for the guy himself. He was distressed enough to commit suicide; isn't that tragic enough?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 12:38 PM on November 8, 2004
I was expecting something like this to happen-- in fact I suspected there might be more suicide attempts. Why? Because this election has been an emotional morass filled with negative and fearful rhetoric.
Think of it as though we were two football teams being pumped up for weeks, even months, to kill! kill! kill! the other side. Kick them. Push their faces in the mud. Stomp all over them, because they are our enemies and their team is evil and they don't deserve to win.
And now the game is over. And now all we can do is jig a little victory dance on the heads of the losing team or go home and lick our wounds while playing and re-playing the game in our heads wondering how we lost.
All that internal rage with nowhere to go.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:51 PM on November 8, 2004
Think of it as though we were two football teams being pumped up for weeks, even months, to kill! kill! kill! the other side. Kick them. Push their faces in the mud. Stomp all over them, because they are our enemies and their team is evil and they don't deserve to win.
And now the game is over. And now all we can do is jig a little victory dance on the heads of the losing team or go home and lick our wounds while playing and re-playing the game in our heads wondering how we lost.
All that internal rage with nowhere to go.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:51 PM on November 8, 2004
Friends said Veal worked in a computer lab at the University of Georgia and was planning to marry.
Well, looks like he dodged that bullet!
I'm so sorry.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:00 PM on November 8, 2004
Well, looks like he dodged that bullet!
I'm so sorry.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:00 PM on November 8, 2004
Friends said Veal worked in a computer lab at the University of Georgia and was planning to marry.
Well, looks like he dodged that bullet!
Damn, another good one !!!
posted by a3matrix at 1:05 PM on November 8, 2004
Well, looks like he dodged that bullet!
Damn, another good one !!!
posted by a3matrix at 1:05 PM on November 8, 2004
Well, looks like he dodged that bullet! I'm so sorry.
Don't be sorry. At the rate this thread was going, you're probably the high point.
posted by Krrrlson at 1:32 PM on November 8, 2004
Don't be sorry. At the rate this thread was going, you're probably the high point.
posted by Krrrlson at 1:32 PM on November 8, 2004
My guess: this was just P. Diddy making good on his promises.
posted by Seth at 2:15 PM on November 8, 2004
posted by Seth at 2:15 PM on November 8, 2004
Ooo I did get a bit piled-on, didn't I?
Apologies for my use of the term "not quite right in the head" - It was just my hackneyed way of saying "suffering from a mental illness". Sincire apologies for not using official terminology for the sake of informality, but I meant to say - how many people in a healthy, happy mental state kill themselves? How many people with a mental illness kill themselves? I'm quite sure "wants to kill self" is a diagnostic trigger in psycology manuals. What papercake and psmeasley said, in other words. And, by the way, by my definition, depression is a mental illness - that is, incorrect chemisty in an organ.
No apologies for calling Bush an evil fuck though - history will be the judge of that.
posted by Jimbob at 2:32 PM on November 8, 2004
Apologies for my use of the term "not quite right in the head" - It was just my hackneyed way of saying "suffering from a mental illness". Sincire apologies for not using official terminology for the sake of informality, but I meant to say - how many people in a healthy, happy mental state kill themselves? How many people with a mental illness kill themselves? I'm quite sure "wants to kill self" is a diagnostic trigger in psycology manuals. What papercake and psmeasley said, in other words. And, by the way, by my definition, depression is a mental illness - that is, incorrect chemisty in an organ.
No apologies for calling Bush an evil fuck though - history will be the judge of that.
posted by Jimbob at 2:32 PM on November 8, 2004
By the way, I sometimes get the feeling that the intolerant ones are the ones who insist on technical jargon in dealing with mental illness. Don't mention the crazy!
They are, after all, just illnesses, and that's what people have to come to terms with. If someone's got a stomach ache, is it "intolerant" of me to say they're "not quite right in the tummy"? If someone has pulled a muscle, is it "intolerant" of me to say they've "buggered up their leg"?
If we're going to accept that mental illnesses are treatable medical conditions like any other, and not be scared by them, it doesn't help anyone by pussy-footing around with semantics.
posted by Jimbob at 2:44 PM on November 8, 2004
They are, after all, just illnesses, and that's what people have to come to terms with. If someone's got a stomach ache, is it "intolerant" of me to say they're "not quite right in the tummy"? If someone has pulled a muscle, is it "intolerant" of me to say they've "buggered up their leg"?
If we're going to accept that mental illnesses are treatable medical conditions like any other, and not be scared by them, it doesn't help anyone by pussy-footing around with semantics.
posted by Jimbob at 2:44 PM on November 8, 2004
What he said, in so many words is correct.
No, actually it isn't...but keep patting yourself on the back and feeling superior in your supposed "sensitivity."
ow many people in a healthy, happy mental state kill themselves?
Happy does not necessarily follow from healthy.
posted by rushmc at 2:52 PM on November 8, 2004
No, actually it isn't...but keep patting yourself on the back and feeling superior in your supposed "sensitivity."
ow many people in a healthy, happy mental state kill themselves?
Happy does not necessarily follow from healthy.
posted by rushmc at 2:52 PM on November 8, 2004
I don't think it's semantics or some strange form of political correctness, Jimbob. Using the terms "mental illness", "sick in the head", or "batshit nuts" are a little too general and vague. Specifically, depression or clinical depression is what we're talking about here. Why is it important to makes such ditinctions? Maybe just to enable to indentify depression in loved ones (not "the blues" but serious depression) and know that in extreme cases, if that person doesn't get help, it can spiral out of control and lead to suicide.
posted by psmealey at 2:56 PM on November 8, 2004
posted by psmealey at 2:56 PM on November 8, 2004
True enough, psmeasley, it is important to make distinctions between different types of illnesses and not lump them all together.
posted by Jimbob at 3:00 PM on November 8, 2004
posted by Jimbob at 3:00 PM on November 8, 2004
FWIW, I rarely get offended at slang terms for mental illness, as long as the mentally ill themselves are treated with due respect.
posted by konolia at 3:41 PM on November 8, 2004
posted by konolia at 3:41 PM on November 8, 2004
This is why the democrats will never win. If it was a republican he would have at least taken an abortion clinic out with him.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:59 PM on November 8, 2004
posted by Space Coyote at 3:59 PM on November 8, 2004
Dejah: This may, or may not be tragic. We have no crystal ball....who knows, maybe had he lived, he would have used the shotgun on everyone he works with. We don't know.
Armitage Shanks: I'm totally mystified as to why so many comments here can't seem to offer any compassion for the guy himself. He was distressed enough to commit suicide; isn't that tragic enough?
I'm going to have to go with "because he's dead, Jim". That's why I offered compassion for those that were left behind. Dead people don't need much of anything...unless they join the zombie horde collective. (What do we want...Braaaains! When do we want it? BRAAAAAAINS!)
posted by dejah420 at 4:41 PM on November 8, 2004
Armitage Shanks: I'm totally mystified as to why so many comments here can't seem to offer any compassion for the guy himself. He was distressed enough to commit suicide; isn't that tragic enough?
I'm going to have to go with "because he's dead, Jim". That's why I offered compassion for those that were left behind. Dead people don't need much of anything...unless they join the zombie horde collective. (What do we want...Braaaains! When do we want it? BRAAAAAAINS!)
posted by dejah420 at 4:41 PM on November 8, 2004
I am glad for this guy, because he is not hurting anymore. I have total respect for people who choose suicide. After all, it is *their* life to do with as they please.
Everyone is so quick to say that a person has to stay alive to spare their relatives the pain of losing them. How is that fair? Someone's agony should be prolonged just so *I* don't have to shed a tear? Sounds like bullshit to me. Especially if they are the kind of family that fails to understand what the depressed is going through, or as oh-so-many do, urge the person to "just snap out of it", "just do X and you'll feel better", or, infuriatingly, go on to major success as their relative scrapes by in a low-wage loser hell.
Of course, I say this as a person who has never even tried suicide, despite spending significant chunks of my life suicidally depressed. At first, it was my family I stayed alive for. Now it's my daughter. But that's my choice, and the alternative choice is also perfectly valid in my book.
I realized something recently. That at the end, what (many | some) suicidal people feel is that little uptick of self-love that says "I deserve a release from this agony". They, in the end, do it as a favor to themselves. I admire that. It takes strength, and courage.
I couldn't manage it. In the end, the heaps of self-loathing I have cultivated over the years keep me safely ensconced among the living. Oh, the pills make life tolerable from day to day, but the monster always lurks. Always.
Suicide, to me, is in some ways a big message that says "FUCK YOU! You can't make me live through this shit anymore! I QUIT!", and I admire that attitude somewhat. Some nights I scream it inside my head as I sob myself to sleep, but that is where it stays.
posted by beth at 4:46 PM on November 8, 2004
Everyone is so quick to say that a person has to stay alive to spare their relatives the pain of losing them. How is that fair? Someone's agony should be prolonged just so *I* don't have to shed a tear? Sounds like bullshit to me. Especially if they are the kind of family that fails to understand what the depressed is going through, or as oh-so-many do, urge the person to "just snap out of it", "just do X and you'll feel better", or, infuriatingly, go on to major success as their relative scrapes by in a low-wage loser hell.
Of course, I say this as a person who has never even tried suicide, despite spending significant chunks of my life suicidally depressed. At first, it was my family I stayed alive for. Now it's my daughter. But that's my choice, and the alternative choice is also perfectly valid in my book.
I realized something recently. That at the end, what (many | some) suicidal people feel is that little uptick of self-love that says "I deserve a release from this agony". They, in the end, do it as a favor to themselves. I admire that. It takes strength, and courage.
I couldn't manage it. In the end, the heaps of self-loathing I have cultivated over the years keep me safely ensconced among the living. Oh, the pills make life tolerable from day to day, but the monster always lurks. Always.
Suicide, to me, is in some ways a big message that says "FUCK YOU! You can't make me live through this shit anymore! I QUIT!", and I admire that attitude somewhat. Some nights I scream it inside my head as I sob myself to sleep, but that is where it stays.
posted by beth at 4:46 PM on November 8, 2004
Beth, the day I knew I would never kill myself is the day I stood in front of a friend's coffin. There is no way I would ever want to bring that kind of pain into any one else's life. The downside of that is I have indeed gone thru the agony you describe.
But you and I both know we come out on the other side eventually.
posted by konolia at 7:42 PM on November 8, 2004
But you and I both know we come out on the other side eventually.
posted by konolia at 7:42 PM on November 8, 2004
For a couple of months now, I've been predicting a wave of suicides if Bush won...
I remember that when Bush Sr. won, we lost Abbie Hoffman as well as a few others. Abbie's note read, "It's too late. We can't win, they've gotten too powerful."
I firmly believe that this poor boy killed himself over the election. I'm a generally cheerful and upbeat person and I've been profoundly depressed over the results -- and so have my friends.
It isn't just that an obviously stupid, malicious incompetent won -- it's the near-psychotic hostility of the winners to the rest of America, and to the world. If you saw some of the unsolicited emails I've gotten from total strangers (because a friend used CC instead of BCC in his plea to get people to vote for Kerry), you'd also be questioning the sanity of Americans.
On preview: have a hug from me, Beth. My dearest friend in university killed himself over 15 years ago. I eventually got over it but I still miss him. He'd have really enjoyed the internet. Please take care of yourself.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 7:46 PM on November 8, 2004
I remember that when Bush Sr. won, we lost Abbie Hoffman as well as a few others. Abbie's note read, "It's too late. We can't win, they've gotten too powerful."
I firmly believe that this poor boy killed himself over the election. I'm a generally cheerful and upbeat person and I've been profoundly depressed over the results -- and so have my friends.
It isn't just that an obviously stupid, malicious incompetent won -- it's the near-psychotic hostility of the winners to the rest of America, and to the world. If you saw some of the unsolicited emails I've gotten from total strangers (because a friend used CC instead of BCC in his plea to get people to vote for Kerry), you'd also be questioning the sanity of Americans.
On preview: have a hug from me, Beth. My dearest friend in university killed himself over 15 years ago. I eventually got over it but I still miss him. He'd have really enjoyed the internet. Please take care of yourself.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 7:46 PM on November 8, 2004
Some other guy out there was probably thinking he'd kill himself if Kerry won. Considering how polarized the election has left this country, I wouldn't be surprised, but there's something about this whole thing that bugs me: there was no suicide note. Killing oneself in the center of Ground Zero may make a big enough statement you don't need a suicide note, but suicide is a selfish act. Though not impossible, I've rarely heard stories of suicides in which the person didn't make an effort to leave their last words behind. That is, when it's a real suicide.
Though upset about the election, there's no indication outside that, that the guy was a manic depressive type. He had a future doing something he apparently loved. He was engaged to be married. Granted, living in Georgia might cause some people to wanna slit their own wrists, but that's a gimmie. I ain't hearin' nothin' that indicates this guy had a history of this kinda behavior.
We make the assumption he was suffering from depression, but I've seen nothing in the news reports to verify that... Maybe I skimmed over it? In fact I'm not seeing a lot of actual investigative journalism going on here. A few comments by port authority personel, someone briefly interviewed the mother, a quick ten paragraph thing from the AP or Reuters regurgitated and rewritten to accomodate all the news sources throughout the world.. Am I the only one who sees this as inconclusive?
You see a dead body in the middle of Ground Zero, with a shotgun, the guy's from Georgia. Do we know if his are the only finger prints on the gun? Isn't it kinda difficult to
A: carry a shotgun from Georgia to New York,
B) sneak it into the allegedly private security confines of Ground Zero,
C) walk around in there completely unnoticed,
D) aim a shotgun at one's own head, and
E) pull the trigger with a gunshot going completely unnoticed?
Well it did happen in Manhattan. I hear gunshots here in Dallas all the time but I never investigate. But then, I don't live in Ground Zero, y'know? I just don't buy this scenario. I mean if one's gonna kill themselves, why use a shotgun? Is there some convenience to using something so cumbersome? It's like slitting one's wrists with the dulled edge of an old protractor. Wouldn't it be easier to conceal a smaller hand gun if you're going from a hotel in New York to Ground Zero? Wouldn't you leave some sort of note or do you think the guy figured well I'm killing myself in GZ what more of a suicide note do ya need?
Suicide is the ultimate act of narcisism, especially if it's allegedly done in such a public spotlight location as Ground Zero. I knew about a guy back when I was in high school, he walked into the drama class of his high school which was on the other side of town from mine, and the guy walked up to the stage with a gun and said, "this is reality" and shot himself in the head. There were witnesses. He used a handgun. This whole thing is major macabre to even consider, but when someone's trying to make a point that's how they do it. This guy had no witnesses, he used the most cumbersome weapon he could have considered.. I can't help but think there's another possibility. Maybe I've watched too many episodes of CSI but this sounds like murder made to look like suicide.
As for the uncouth and impersonal attitudes scattered throughout this thread, intermingled with people who hope to have some humble understanding of this man's plight, I feel it necessary to admit that I too am a survivor, and learned the hard way many years ago that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. That realization saved my life. Some people just aren't that lucky/smart/stupid/gullible/fortunate/optimistic/whatever.
Whether Veal commited suicide over the election or a botched baked alaska, or whether he was murdered, or whether there's another solution that an objective investigation might reveal, I don't know the guy, and neither do any of you. Somebody was trying to make a statement. That's the only thing we really know. What that statement is will perhaps be interpreted for generations, but more than likely we'll all have forgotten about this guy between now and a week from Wednesday.
I can't tell if that's a good thing, or the worst crime of all.
posted by ZachsMind at 9:43 PM on November 8, 2004
Though upset about the election, there's no indication outside that, that the guy was a manic depressive type. He had a future doing something he apparently loved. He was engaged to be married. Granted, living in Georgia might cause some people to wanna slit their own wrists, but that's a gimmie. I ain't hearin' nothin' that indicates this guy had a history of this kinda behavior.
We make the assumption he was suffering from depression, but I've seen nothing in the news reports to verify that... Maybe I skimmed over it? In fact I'm not seeing a lot of actual investigative journalism going on here. A few comments by port authority personel, someone briefly interviewed the mother, a quick ten paragraph thing from the AP or Reuters regurgitated and rewritten to accomodate all the news sources throughout the world.. Am I the only one who sees this as inconclusive?
You see a dead body in the middle of Ground Zero, with a shotgun, the guy's from Georgia. Do we know if his are the only finger prints on the gun? Isn't it kinda difficult to
A: carry a shotgun from Georgia to New York,
B) sneak it into the allegedly private security confines of Ground Zero,
C) walk around in there completely unnoticed,
D) aim a shotgun at one's own head, and
E) pull the trigger with a gunshot going completely unnoticed?
Well it did happen in Manhattan. I hear gunshots here in Dallas all the time but I never investigate. But then, I don't live in Ground Zero, y'know? I just don't buy this scenario. I mean if one's gonna kill themselves, why use a shotgun? Is there some convenience to using something so cumbersome? It's like slitting one's wrists with the dulled edge of an old protractor. Wouldn't it be easier to conceal a smaller hand gun if you're going from a hotel in New York to Ground Zero? Wouldn't you leave some sort of note or do you think the guy figured well I'm killing myself in GZ what more of a suicide note do ya need?
Suicide is the ultimate act of narcisism, especially if it's allegedly done in such a public spotlight location as Ground Zero. I knew about a guy back when I was in high school, he walked into the drama class of his high school which was on the other side of town from mine, and the guy walked up to the stage with a gun and said, "this is reality" and shot himself in the head. There were witnesses. He used a handgun. This whole thing is major macabre to even consider, but when someone's trying to make a point that's how they do it. This guy had no witnesses, he used the most cumbersome weapon he could have considered.. I can't help but think there's another possibility. Maybe I've watched too many episodes of CSI but this sounds like murder made to look like suicide.
As for the uncouth and impersonal attitudes scattered throughout this thread, intermingled with people who hope to have some humble understanding of this man's plight, I feel it necessary to admit that I too am a survivor, and learned the hard way many years ago that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. That realization saved my life. Some people just aren't that lucky/smart/stupid/gullible/fortunate/optimistic/whatever.
Whether Veal commited suicide over the election or a botched baked alaska, or whether he was murdered, or whether there's another solution that an objective investigation might reveal, I don't know the guy, and neither do any of you. Somebody was trying to make a statement. That's the only thing we really know. What that statement is will perhaps be interpreted for generations, but more than likely we'll all have forgotten about this guy between now and a week from Wednesday.
I can't tell if that's a good thing, or the worst crime of all.
posted by ZachsMind at 9:43 PM on November 8, 2004
Isn't it kinda difficult to...
A) carry a shotgun from Georgia to New York,
No, this is pretty easy if you're driving. Walking might be a pain in the ass, but even that's possible.
B) sneak it into the allegedly private security confines of Ground Zero,
It's not like the place is alarmed and trip-wired. It's just a big fence in some spots.
C) walk around in there completely unnoticed,
The area of G/0 is HUGE, and it's not like it gets a lot of tourist traffic. If it was done at night, it's unlikely you'd be spotted.
D) aim a shotgun at one's own head, and
You don't have to aim it at the front of your face. You could put it under your chin and blow off the roof of your skull.
E) pull the trigger with a gunshot going completely unnoticed?
Again, pretty big area, lots of noise in NYC. Someone would probably hear it, then quickly think it was some construction "or something" going on.
Maybe I've watched too many episodes of CSI...
I definately think so!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:58 PM on November 8, 2004
A) carry a shotgun from Georgia to New York,
No, this is pretty easy if you're driving. Walking might be a pain in the ass, but even that's possible.
B) sneak it into the allegedly private security confines of Ground Zero,
It's not like the place is alarmed and trip-wired. It's just a big fence in some spots.
C) walk around in there completely unnoticed,
The area of G/0 is HUGE, and it's not like it gets a lot of tourist traffic. If it was done at night, it's unlikely you'd be spotted.
D) aim a shotgun at one's own head, and
You don't have to aim it at the front of your face. You could put it under your chin and blow off the roof of your skull.
E) pull the trigger with a gunshot going completely unnoticed?
Again, pretty big area, lots of noise in NYC. Someone would probably hear it, then quickly think it was some construction "or something" going on.
Maybe I've watched too many episodes of CSI...
I definately think so!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:58 PM on November 8, 2004
edgeways: You misinterpreted sarcasm as scorn. What I'm trying to say is that it's all too easy to view an act such as this as "just another" demonstration of mental illness, dismiss the act itself, and continue on without further thought or reflection. The self-immolation of a Buddhist monk in 1963 as a form of protest was shocking in part because of the obvious, pre-meditated fashion in which it was carried out and of the message relayed during the act itself. As pointed out earlier in this thread, this individual didn't do this on a lark - a lot of thought went into ensuring that he could end his life at Ground Zero. But, without the expressed clear intent and justification typical of such extreme forms of protest, it's difficult to pigeonhole this as "act of protest" or "response to post-election depression", or any other label we'd attach on this act. So, the easiest label to attach is "mental illness" and thanks to the societal stigma of that label, we probably won't think about the act itself any further once that label's attached.
(Warning: more sarcasm) After all, why would someone do something as drastic as this over something as trivial as watching this country slide just that bit closer to becoming a parlimentary dictatorship? (sarcasm stops here.)
posted by FormlessOne at 7:00 AM on November 9, 2004
(Warning: more sarcasm) After all, why would someone do something as drastic as this over something as trivial as watching this country slide just that bit closer to becoming a parlimentary dictatorship? (sarcasm stops here.)
posted by FormlessOne at 7:00 AM on November 9, 2004
Again, pretty big area, lots of noise in NYC. Someone would probably hear it, then quickly think it was some construction "or something" going on.
I live three blocks from the WTC, and it's a pretty quiet area at night. There's construction from time to time (especially the past couple of weeks), but it doesn't get that much nighttime traffic.
posted by bshort at 7:26 AM on November 9, 2004
I live three blocks from the WTC, and it's a pretty quiet area at night. There's construction from time to time (especially the past couple of weeks), but it doesn't get that much nighttime traffic.
posted by bshort at 7:26 AM on November 9, 2004
I live three blocks from the WTC, and it's a pretty quiet area at night.
Interesting! But you claim to have heard nothing at all on the night in question?
bshort did it!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:06 AM on November 9, 2004
Interesting! But you claim to have heard nothing at all on the night in question?
bshort did it!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:06 AM on November 9, 2004
konolia if there is a god, you are in serious trouble.
posted by goneill at 7:37 PM on November 9, 2004
posted by goneill at 7:37 PM on November 9, 2004
Why?
He knows what is in my heart. And if I blew it He would simply point it out, and forgive me. God is not up there looking for an excuse to knock the hell out of me, anyways. He's not an abusive Parent.
I posted ONE aspect of my thoughts on the matter. Not the totallity of my thoughts. Others took what I posted much more harshly on one hand and yet didn't see how I was concerned for the feelings of LIVING individuals.
But I am really used to being misjudged, so I don't know why I am bothering to even comment further.
posted by konolia at 5:51 AM on November 10, 2004
He knows what is in my heart. And if I blew it He would simply point it out, and forgive me. God is not up there looking for an excuse to knock the hell out of me, anyways. He's not an abusive Parent.
I posted ONE aspect of my thoughts on the matter. Not the totallity of my thoughts. Others took what I posted much more harshly on one hand and yet didn't see how I was concerned for the feelings of LIVING individuals.
But I am really used to being misjudged, so I don't know why I am bothering to even comment further.
posted by konolia at 5:51 AM on November 10, 2004
y'know, I've been around this year for almost four years, and I've made a lot of comments. Many have been off-the-cuff and not as well-thoughtout as they could be. On those occasions I've said things I shouldn't have--either I spoke in anger or in haste or in a poor attempt at humor--I've done my best to recognize that and apologize. (On those occasions I haven't, you can just assume that I mean what I said, and that I'm an asshole.) When others have come down on me en masse, I don't usually chalk it up to groupthink or personal vendetta, and I certainly don't cry woe-is-me why-am-I-so-misunderstood. I usually consider that maybe they have a point, and that I have made an error in judgement. I consider the possibility that what I said was wrong. Why some others can't seem to do that is beyond me.
Actually, it's not beyond me. I'm sure that if I thought the creator of all things had my back, I'd be arrogant an unapologetic too.
There's so much talk about the supposed arrogance of the Left these days. But I find the arrogance of the Right--with its Divine Infallibility--so much worse.
posted by jpoulos at 6:47 AM on November 10, 2004
Actually, it's not beyond me. I'm sure that if I thought the creator of all things had my back, I'd be arrogant an unapologetic too.
There's so much talk about the supposed arrogance of the Left these days. But I find the arrogance of the Right--with its Divine Infallibility--so much worse.
posted by jpoulos at 6:47 AM on November 10, 2004
Well, I personally do not see anything wrong with what I said. So why should I feel apologetic? You wouldn't, under similar circumstances.
posted by konolia at 1:01 PM on November 10, 2004
posted by konolia at 1:01 PM on November 10, 2004
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posted by banished at 10:00 PM on November 7, 2004