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Culture Jamming Myth
December 12, 2004 12:39 AM   RSS feed for this thread Subscribe

Hate consumer culture? Authors of the new book, Rebel Sell, argue you've been co opted by the very consumer culture you thought you had rejected
posted by squeak (196 comments total)

I'd avoided the book because I thought it was just more Adbusters bullshit but the article under that first link was very well-written and I'll probably hit the library for the full-length. Thanks.

(And I'll still buy Stay Free! because it is *not* just more of the Adbusters bullshit.)
posted by dobbs at 1:15 AM on December 12, 2004


I can't wait to buy this book!

This article was much better than I thought it would be from its description... the analysis of American Beauty was dead-on. Go Canadian philosophy professors! I want to force this article on every indie rocker I see.
posted by painquale at 1:20 AM on December 12, 2004


A lecture by the authors was televised on Big Ideas last week. I captured a transcript from the closed captioning which I can pass along if anyone is interested.

Also, anyone interested in the topic should check out the "Hidden Persuaders" link from last week.
posted by Chuckles at 1:30 AM on December 12, 2004


And the left will eat itself.

Fuckinghell
posted by undule at 1:58 AM on December 12, 2004


I disagree with a lot of what he is saying. His American Beauty analysis is dead on, but Fight Club? There's no 'guy goes and buys stuff to feel empowered' part to that movie, unless I'm remembering the plot badly. And I think he mistakes the primary motivation behind brand rejection. I'm sure some people reject brands in order to distinguish themselves, but I personally feel awful about every brand I own. Indie bands are not the driving engine of consumerism; Wal-mart is. You think those people buying 5 VCRs on Thanksgiving are trying to make a statement about individuality? You think I'm using linux cause it's hip? It's UI hell! But it's free, and it works well enough. That's the true force behind anti-consumer movements: the increasing conviction that we are being ripped off. If Linux can run things like Google, why am I paying for Windows?

If anything, I would consider American Beauty to be a contrasting movie to Fight Club, not a complimentary one. I mean, the first time I saw American Beauty I thought "$2000 for an ounce of weed? You have got to be kidding me." On the other hand, getting rich people to pay for their own fat? That's transcendent.

Or is my whole argument just an attempt to stake out the individuality of my preference for brand Fight Club? I doubt it; there is a difference between cultural object and brand object. Oh, but how to be sure?
posted by freedryk at 2:02 AM on December 12, 2004


I liked this part:
Many people who are, in their own minds, opposed to consumerism nevertheless actively participate in the sort of behaviour that drives it. Consider Naomi Klein. She starts out No Logo by decrying the recent conversion of factory buildings in her Toronto neighbourhood into “loft living” condominiums. She makes it absolutely clear to the reader that her place is the real deal, a genuine factory loft, steeped in working-class authenticity, yet throbbing with urban street culture and a “rock-video aesthetic.”


Now of course anyone who has a feel for how social class in this country works knows that, at the time Klein was writing, a genuine factory loft in the King-Spadina area was possibly the single most exclusive and desirable piece of real estate in Canada. Unlike merely expensive neighbourhoods in Toronto, like Rosedale and Forest Hill, where it is possible to buy your way in, genuine lofts could only be acquired by people with superior social connections. This is because they contravened zoning regulations and could not be bought on the open market. Only the most exclusive segment of the cultural elite could get access to them.


Unfortunately for Klein, zoning changes in Toronto (changes that were part of a very enlightened and successful strategy to slow urban sprawl) allowed yuppies to buy their way into her neighbourhood. This led to an erosion of her social status. Her complaints about commercialization are nothing but an expression of this loss of distinction. What she fails to observe is that this distinction is precisely what drives the real estate market, what creates the value in these dwellings. People buy these lofts because they want a piece of Klein’s social status. Naturally, she is not amused. They are, after all, her inferiors—an inferiority that they demonstrate through their willingness to accept mass-produced, commercialized facsimiles of the “genuine” article.


Klein claims these newcomers bring “a painful new self-consciousness” to the neighbourhood. But as the rest of her introduction demonstrates, she is also conscious—painfully so—of her surroundings. Her neighbourhood is one where “in the twenties and thirties Russian and Polish immigrants darted back and forth on these streets, ducking into delis to argue about Trotsky and the leadership of the international ladies’ garment workers’ union.” Emma Goldman, we are told, “the famed anarchist and labour organizer,” lived on her street! How exciting for Klein! What a tremendous source of distinction that must be.


Klein suggests that she may be forced to move out of her loft when the landlord decides to convert the building to condominiums. But wait a minute. If that happens, why doesn’t she just buy her loft? The problem, of course, is that a loft-living condominium doesn’t have quite the cachet of a “genuine” loft. It becomes, as Klein puts it, merely an apartment with “exceptionally high ceilings.” It is not her landlord, but her fear of losing social status that threatens to drive Klein from her neighbourhood.

posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 2:04 AM on December 12, 2004


Aarrrrghh! Busted! Single malt scotch!
posted by foozleface at 2:11 AM on December 12, 2004


freedryk: You're correct - the author's analysis of Fight Club is off. Tyler blows up the consumer goods tying Jack to society, and at no point afterwards do Jack or Tyler ever attempt to reenter consumer society in any sense. There is no attempt to be 'cool' - they live in squat in the industrial district where they constantly have to live with "that fart smell of steam." The only things they buy are the things they need to live - they build their own bunkbeds, make their own explosives, and eventually grow their own food.

While I wouldn't go so far as to say that Fight Club's answer to consumerism (explosives, and lots of them) is 'better,' the motives and actions of the characters within the movie are at least consistent and sincere.
posted by Ryvar at 2:21 AM on December 12, 2004


See my first ever MeFi post on the article this book was based on.
posted by Quartermass at 2:21 AM on December 12, 2004


Ahh, the anti-marketing dollar, big market there.

/hicks
posted by Space Coyote at 2:30 AM on December 12, 2004


freedryk, I think you've missed the point of what he is saying. You wrote:

"And I think he mistakes the primary motivation behind brand rejection. I'm sure some people reject brands in order to distinguish themselves, but I personally feel awful about every brand I own. Indie bands are not the driving engine of consumerism; Wal-mart is. You think those people buying 5 VCRs on Thanksgiving are trying to make a statement about individuality? You think I'm using linux cause it's hip? It's UI hell! But it's free, and it works well enough. That's the true force behind anti-consumer movements: the increasing conviction that we are being ripped off. If Linux can run things like Google, why am I paying for Windows?"

I think this paragraph addresses what you are saying nicely:

"Because so much of our competitive consumption is defensive in nature, people feel justified in their choices. Unfortunately, everyone who participates contributes just as much to the problem, regardless of his or her intentions. It doesn’t matter that you bought the SUV to protect yourself and your children, you still bought it, and you still made it harder for other drivers to opt out of the automotive arms race. When it comes to consumerism, intentions are irrelevant. It is only consequences that count."

It doesn't matter if you shed a tear every time you drink at Starbucks. What matters is that you are drinking at Starbucks. He wasn't trying to say that "indie" brands are the driving force behind consumerism at all. They would just be more brands among the many. His point is that if you hold yourself to be "against consumerism" or "fighting the Man", and consume accordingly, you are merely following along with the consumerism you are claiming to hate. You say that the true motivation behind the anti-consumer movement is the increasing conviction that you are being ripped off, and thus buy cheaper things that work? He woudl respond that you are the perfect consumer: you have chosen a better, lower-priced product over one you find to be lower quality at a higher price, with the added bonus that maybe you feel like you're thumbing your nose at the Big Companies (not saying you do, just an example). Isn't that capitalist behavior in a nutshell? Something comes along that's better and cheaper, so people buy it. That's how the market works.

As for your Fight Club argument, I have no comment, as I don't remember that movie well enough. I only remember that I didn't think it was as great as every other person on Earth seems to think it is...
posted by Sangermaine at 2:32 AM on December 12, 2004


You want to be free of consumerism? Live in a Buddhist monastery.

Note: I'm not judging consumerism. There is nothing wrong with an abstract idea, the problems only arise when people take things to the extreme in either direction.
posted by pemdasi at 2:34 AM on December 12, 2004


Ryvar: There is no attempt to be 'cool'

Fight Club, the club within the movie, is all about being cool. The members are participating because they want to be part of something cool, and new. Also, outside of the fictional world, the movie itself is a brand.
posted by Chuckles at 2:40 AM on December 12, 2004


Tyler/Jack in fight club are NOT trying to be cool. Well, Tyler isn't, at least. He starts using jack, then fight club, as a means to further his ideology. I don't think he cared why people were following him and doing what he said, just that they did.
posted by pemdasi at 2:42 AM on December 12, 2004


Fight Club, the club within the movie, is all about being cool.

It is to Jack and the other members (not, as pemdasi points out, to Tyler) - but as Tyler points out to the guy who own's the bar, Fight Club is "free to all"

Owner: "Free to all, eh? Ain't that somethin'."
Tyler: "It is, actually."

My point being, of course, that there's no consumerism involved in Fight Club the in-movie phenomenon - unless you count the medical bills.
posted by Ryvar at 2:47 AM on December 12, 2004


owns, not own's. Sorry, just rolled out of bed here.
posted by Ryvar at 2:48 AM on December 12, 2004


Some peopler really genuinely resist consumerism - they want to support their local neighborhood grocer than the big supermarket, want to see their money go to a good cause. But then the idea of "buying with social responsibility" becomes co-opted by big brands who air ads about how they are "socially just" because they help out in their communities. Wal-Mart itself capitalized on this. I've seen Wal-Mart ads that talk about the way its workers and even higher-ups are actively involved in community service.... and of course there is merchandise whose selling point is fair treatment of the workers that made the product - whether this is tea, coffee, pastries... Now, they don't exactly give you any details on how they help out anyone out, except maybe in a few words of a booklet.... For all you know, they could just be fabricating the whole social justice thing to market it to socially-aware consumers. And that's what it comes down to. Our own hatred of corporations who exploit their workers is marketed by to the consumer by that very same corporation, that meanwhile has done very little to change any of its business practices.
posted by gregb1007 at 2:57 AM on December 12, 2004


I agree with the thesis of the article-- that we're all trapped in an arms race of consumerism where even anti-consumerism becomes productized. But the conclusion of the article suggests that legislation (taxing advertising) is the solution (or at least a big part of it) seems rather ludicrous, if for no other reason than Big Business has access to the best politicians money can buy, and Big Business is watching you...
posted by Ironwolf at 3:02 AM on December 12, 2004


So here is Frank’s claim, simply put: books like No Logo, magazines like Adbusters, and movies like American Beauty do not undermine consumerism; they reinforce it.

Wrong. books, magazines and movies like these force the consumer to think about what he is consuming and why and at what environmental/human cost. To think about and be critical of the thread-count and composition of the fabric of society is not the same thing as rejecting a sweatshop produced blanket when you are cold.

This article is fallacy laden and contrived. The author does absolutely no justice to the true and grassroots elements of organic information passed from one disgruntled citizen to another.

I know of nobody who bases their critical perceptions of mass society off of a mere two Hollywood blockbuster films and a handful of vogue "leftist" publications. Healthy criticism of the always "somewhere else", inhuman system we inhabit springs from individual inspiration that wishes to be shared. To think about the effects of what is happening to us is not a leftie ideal, it is a human ideal. It only so happens that those who describe themselves as left of center are the only ones with the cojones to remind the rest of us that we all are in fact one. Despite it all. Our genes are all witheringly similar.

You may think it's dumb. You might even think I am full of shit. But it's true. The solution is to think and criticize. Then we can forge the solutions.

I mean all of us can certainly come to an agreement that shit's just plain fucked up right? Therefore, why bitch about the methods in which we get sentience, once again, involved in the placement of things we call life?

Again, this article sucks (You have steve at linnwood and his kindly excerpt to vouch for that). But read it for yourself to see why.
posted by crasspastor at 3:08 AM on December 12, 2004


The solution is to think and criticize

Yes, fine. But movies like American Beauty aren't critical or thoughtful in the right way. They turn anti-consumer culture into a consumerist subculture. The authors aren't arguing that anti-consumerism is impossible; they're saying that standard anti-consumer culture tends to be self-defeating and pointless. I thought the excerpt about No Logo that Steve_at_Linnwood posted was great and sums up the article perfectly... what's wrong with it?

I also don't get why they talked about Fight Club. Maybe they'll go into it in the full book? Guess we'll have to buy it and see.
posted by painquale at 3:41 AM on December 12, 2004


Great article, and good on you both, Quartermass and squeak. A double post, evidently (?), but, if so, the url has changed, so it's a useful one. I have to agree that I don't really see the anticonsumerismconsumerism in Fight Club, but if we are looking for a place to put our peg on the irony scale, I could mention that Tyler's mad bzz-ness skills in terms of franchising and embedded agents (the "hidden persuaders") is something that would put most multinationals to shame.
posted by taz at 4:02 AM on December 12, 2004


painquale, the authors of this essay have confused the important issues quite a bit.

As far as Naomi Klein, she has done some superb reporting from Iraq. She is hardly to be only judged on a single excerpt from a mere early example of her ongoing body of work. Lest we forget, nuance exists whether we like it to or not.

Your own senses are the answer. No thanks to Naomi Klein, Adbusters and Fight Club, you will still have to think for yourself eventually. Why shouldn't Naomi Klein be any different?

Klein is a jounalist and activist. It is the job of people who do that kind of thing to get you to think.

Hence the "solution".
posted by crasspastor at 4:09 AM on December 12, 2004


As far as Naomi Klein, she has done some superb reporting from Iraq.

Please tell me what that has to do with the part I excerpted.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 4:14 AM on December 12, 2004


Having superbly reported from Iraq or not does not affect one's status as a hypocrite on the topic of consumerism.
Please note that I have nowhere made any claims to anti-consumerism on my own part
posted by Ryvar at 4:16 AM on December 12, 2004


Mr. Linnwood, it was written right in front of you. Here is what I wrote again:

She is hardly to be only judged on a single excerpt from a mere early example of her ongoing body of work. Lest we forget, nuance exists whether we like it to or not.
posted by crasspastor at 4:19 AM on December 12, 2004


Also, did you catch this clever turn of phrase I made even further above?

To think about and be critical of the thread-count and composition of the fabric of society is not the same thing as rejecting a sweatshop produced blanket when you are cold.

What could it be that you are disagreeing with me about Mr. "America" Linnwood?
posted by crasspastor at 4:29 AM on December 12, 2004


Also, did you catch this clever turn of phrase I made even further above?

No I didn't, but then again it is 6:30 AM. I'm glad you are happy with yourself for being so clever.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 4:36 AM on December 12, 2004


Ryvar: On that I cannot remark. Naomi Klein seems to me to be a perfect living example of a standard of living that many of us long for. Pride in the idealism of the unknown. Written in posh lofts one can say they have earned.

I'd go with Klein's currency to pay for such a place any day.

Here's this neat line from Robert Lewis Stevenson I found today (via metafilter of course!)

The shadows and the generations, the shrill doctors and the plangent
wars, go by into ultimate silence and emptiness; but underneath all
this, a man may see, out of the Belvedere windows, much green and
peaceful landscape; many firelit parlours; good people laughing,
drinking, and making love as they did before the Flood or the French
Revolution; and the old shepherd telling his tale under the hawthorn.
posted by crasspastor at 4:42 AM on December 12, 2004


The Amish arguably _earn_ where they live also, I'd wager you won't find many people wishing to be in their position, however.
posted by pemdasi at 4:48 AM on December 12, 2004


I'm not sure what you mean, pemdasi. Are you referring to the lack of technology bit?
posted by taz at 4:57 AM on December 12, 2004


Very moving. I'm certain I would weep if I found poetry at all worthwhile in even the slightest respect.

I don't.

Neither do I find Naomi Klein's lifestyle, occupation, or opinion on consumerism worthwhile in even the slightest respect.

My laptop says "Dell" but the reason I bought it because I searched eBay for a laptop with a >500MHz processor with at least a 14.1" TFT screen capable of 1024x768. It was the cheapest one ($285) that met those requirements. I have here on my desk a GYBE CD, which is apparently an indie band. I don't think much of their philosophy or the cult of personality one is supposed to buy into when purchasing said CD - I think it represents the most immature aspects to be found in the liberalism I generally support. I bought it because it sounds good.

My clothes are from JC Penny's so that I could avoid looking at the terminally obese/ugly sub-human monstrosities that inhabit Walmart while I picked them out.

My personal belief is that my own lifestyle - that of brand/counter-brand immunity - is possessed of something far more revolutionary than the Naomi Kleins of the world could ever hope to lay claim to. I do not care what my choice of computers, media, or clothing say about me because I hate my fellow humans far too much to bother considering their opinions. I just go with what gets me the most of what it is I want with my dollar and there are no other considerations. In this aspect of life, at least, I would honestly prefer a communist society in which there were no competing brands - just specifications.
posted by Ryvar at 5:02 AM on December 12, 2004


Awfully poetic Ryvar.
posted by crasspastor at 5:04 AM on December 12, 2004


Well the article directly states that the author doesn't think that Naomi Klein etal. are hypocrites (and for what it's worth, I don't think that they are) but rather that they have missed Thomas Frank's point about the inescapable power of the consumer-based society. That's a pretty specific framework that others in this thread seem to be broadening for reasons that have nothing to do with the article.

Keep in mind that these are not value judgments, just observations.

Using Frank's thesis as a filter, Naomi, Adbusters, etc. are can be seen as creating a different kind of consumption based on negative (or positive, according to your personal point of view) views on what one buys or doesn't. It doesn't stop consumption, it simply gives it a different criteria. It creates the Rebel Consumer or non-consumer. Remember those black dot "no logo" sneakers? Perfect example. And Ryvar is another perfect example, he doesn't shop at Wallmart to avoid being associated with Wallmart shoppers. He avoids also avoids "cool" brands because he doesn't want to be associated with the cool people. He consumes based on his own criteria. But he consumes.

It's this desire for differentiation that fuels late capitalist consumer society. We no longer live in a mass consumption society, that went out with Ford-Taylorism. Today's consumption is all about being ahead of the curve or ignoring the curve to such an extent that by falling so far behind it, you are actually two steps ahead of those that are ahead of the curve. Believe me, it's unavoidable.

That said, if Adbusters teaches someone to consume more responsibly in a political and social sense, in my opinion, that is definitely positive. But don't believe for a minute that people will stop consuming. Or that capitalism won't horn into this style of consumption in the most souless way possible and ultimately corrupt it.

It's all unavoidable, unless, as someone already mentioned, they go and live in a Buddist monastery in Tibet.
posted by sic at 5:16 AM on December 12, 2004


"I hate my fellow humans far too much to bother considering their opinions."

Unless they think you look like a slob who shops at Wal-Mart
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:20 AM on December 12, 2004


Musta bought them cranky-trousers on special at JC Penny's, huh, Ryvar?

Hey, I hated the consumer cesspool that is North America so much I left it permanently more than a decade ago (only to land -- and the irony is almost as delicious as sweet sweet Pepsi Blue -- in a place that's even more nakedly avaricious and grasping. But at least I don't speak the language well enough to be as incessantly annoyed by it).

Do I win something?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:22 AM on December 12, 2004


Also, Naomi Klein kicks ass. That is all.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:23 AM on December 12, 2004


Biggest Idiot award?

;)
posted by sic at 5:24 AM on December 12, 2004


And Ryvar is another perfect example, he doesn't shop at Wallmart to avoid being associated with Wallmart shoppers. He avoids also avoids "cool" brands because he doesn't want to be associated with the cool people. He consumes based on his own criteria. But he consumes.

You missed my point. It's not that I do not wish to be associated with Walmart shoppers, it is that they are so visually repellant that I honestly get sick to my stomach looking at them/listening to them fight constantly. Strictly as a matter of personal choice I do not wish to look at the anus of American demographics they represent - I don't particularly care whether people associate me with them or not, because I'm not interested in what other people's opinions about me are. Acceptance, as I've made pretty clear in MeTa at several points, is not one of my goals in life.

Likewise I'm not concerned with whether I'm associated with cool people/brands or not - see also: acceptance or the lack thereof isn't one of my goals.

You are right about one thing, though: I consume. I consume because if I were to stop consuming I would die or commit suicide due to boredom. I, again, don't really care what that makes people think about me.

My point was that there is a third way between brand and anti-brand: realizing that the human race is so utterly worthless that the argument and by extension acceptance are topics not worth engaging at all. Take what you need and if you can afford it what you want, but stop worrying about how your possessions reflect on you. The majority of people who cannot see beyond possessions to the person underneath are, as I've said, not worth knowing.
posted by Ryvar at 5:27 AM on December 12, 2004


Dude.

The whole thesis is the joke of 'be different, just like all the other different people'. That's all there is to it.

Consumerism is fine. Mindless consumerism isn't. I hate iTunes and other DRMed crap, so I buy stuff off Magnatune that I don't really need to buy. Is that defining my political beliefs by consumption? Of course. So?

(I'm just really feeling extremely defensive about the hatchet-job on Naomi Klein, so my brain is refusing to think beyond seeing red.)
posted by Firas at 5:28 AM on December 12, 2004 [1 favorite]


She is hardly to be only judged on a single excerpt from a mere early example of her ongoing body of work. Lest we forget, nuance exists whether we like it to or not.

Er, no, but the article isn't judging her as a human being, it's judging her writing in relationship to anticonsumerism. She may be a great person and a great journalist, but that's not what the article is about.
posted by bugbread at 5:29 AM on December 12, 2004


Ryvar: yes, you are the ideal that the article is about, but I say the need to share support for 'a brand' is a political act in its essence, and a longing that all humans share.
posted by Firas at 5:31 AM on December 12, 2004 [1 favorite]


Ryvar: I hate my fellow humans far too much to bother considering their opinions

Well, then... why are you bothering to contribute to this public discussion?
posted by MotorNeuron at 5:35 AM on December 12, 2004


I think people are also missing/ignoring the central tenet of Ryvar's posts, which is valid: There are positively brand aware consumers (folks who buy a Volvo because of the cachet of buying a Volvo), and anti-brand aware consumers (people who avoid buying a Volvo because of the cachet of buying a Volvo, or make the purchase "ironic"), and then the third group: consumers who buy brand goods and couldn't give a good goddamn what brand they are.

I don't know how relevant that point is to the discussion, but I'm relatively sure it's more relevant than shopping at Walmart or hating people.

Also (and this goes for Naomi Klein as well), the parent article and some of this discussion is looking at things in black and white: if a person buys a single thing due to brand, they are a brand consumer, just like everyone else who makes decisions based on brand. I think it's more useful to think of the spectrum, from highly brand motivated to low brand motivation, neutrality, anti-brand motivation, etc. Just because someone buys or doesn't buy a single thing due to brand doesn't shoot them to the end of the spectrum, it just nudges them in a particular direction.
posted by bugbread at 5:37 AM on December 12, 2004


I think the point about Fight Club is that it's against branding and buying stuff (etc - I haven't seen the whole thing), yet the movie itself is a brand people bought into.

books, magazines and movies like these force the consumer to think about what he is consuming and why and at what environmental/human cost.

And buy something different? Or continue buying the same thing, but feel guilty? Either way, they're still consuming.
posted by cillit bang at 5:38 AM on December 12, 2004


Biggest Idiot award?

Lifetime achievement.

My point was that there is a third way between brand and anti-brand: realizing that the human race is so utterly worthless that the argument and by extension acceptance are topics not worth engaging at all.

There is a fourth way as well, of course. (There is in fact a multitude of ways, which is the truth missed by the kind of reductionist manichean thinking that leads us all time and again into 'fork!' 'spoon!' shouting matches.) That is, as Ryvar says, neither the way of the consumer nor that of the adbusterizing anticonsumer, but it doesn't depend on the kind of misanthropy he displays. (One wonders, tangentially, if he finds others so repulsive, why he would bother to spend time disputing things like this with them, but each to their own.)

Buy only what you need, and only, when possible, what is not in fact advertised. Seek out products grown, manufactured or built as locally as is possible. Patronize service-based companies that are not part of any larger corporate entity. Support artists by paying them directly for their work where possible. Steal corporate entertainment whenever possible, and redistribute it.

Or not. Like Ryvar, I don't really give a shit, but I manage to steer it between the ditches of total misanthropy most of the time.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:38 AM on December 12, 2004


I see that I've repeated what some others have said, kinda. Fast mover of a thread.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:40 AM on December 12, 2004


Firas: That's a good point, and a nice tangent off away from my self-righteousness, so let's take it.

I would concede that by sticking to the Magnatune brand over iTunes, you are committing an overtly political act - and a good one at that. Your purchase is a choice to go with an alternative because you believe that a higher principle is at stake (DRM) as opposed to a choice to go with an alternative because of how that choice might reflect on you. I totally agree with that because you're not just buying songs, you're helping to purchase a future in which your fair use rights are treated with respect. That is entirely different from buying into a brand or an anti-consumerist brand purely for the sake of how those things alter how others so you, or influence your own self-image.

One wonders, tangentially, if he finds others so repulsive, why he would bother to spend time disputing things like this with them, but each to their own.

Humans, including me, are social animals, and in this medium you come with off buttons.
posted by Ryvar at 5:42 AM on December 12, 2004


How others SEE you. Sheesh. I cannot type worth beans today.
posted by Ryvar at 5:43 AM on December 12, 2004


this arcticle reminded me of people i see at the bar i hang out at....

many working class types, artists, students and such.
everyone wants to be 'not-cool'. as in "we're not the cool jock guy/cheerleader who used to intimidate me 5-15 years ago in high school."

And yet, if you are truly different, maybe not wear all black, or something knit by the girl who lives down the street, or the new super cool no one has heard of this local band, well then by god you're not cool.

It's always made me laugh. These people, who claim to reject cool, reject the mainstream, merely create their own mainstream without realizing it. True, they shop locally, think globally, but 'cool' and marketing play just as much a part of thier lives as the kind who needs to run out and buy the latest Jordan's.

Personally, I think a lot of people are missing the point here, maybe because the article's critique and mefi's audience overlap just a tad.

Personally, I dont give crap about brands, but I do care about quality. I've been friends with the ceo of BP/Amoco and several guys who worked at Blockbusters to get free movies. Status, position, indie, mainstream are all bullshit.

also, dont dink and post at 6 am
posted by efalk at 5:50 AM on December 12, 2004


the point of american beauty wasn't the consumerism or anti-consumerism of the characters ... it presents the rebellion of the main character as being as illusionary as his wife's more traditional consumerism

the real point was the plastic bag going around in circles in the wind ... that there is beauty and worth in our sanitized, comformist, suburban culture

rebellion's been co-opted to make money for decades ... i'm amazed people still fall for it
posted by pyramid termite at 5:51 AM on December 12, 2004


I also see the point in what (I think) Ryvar is saying - allowing consumerism to define you in any way (even via anticonsumerism) is still a reaction to brand. In other words, the wealthy spendthrift who is so self absorbed and dismissive of anyone else's opinion that they would never, ever buy an item simply based on its brand value or cachet, and the hermit who has rejected all of society's alluring materialism may have more in common in terms of being "outside the circle" than anyone who consciously buys to make any kind of statement at all.
posted by taz at 5:52 AM on December 12, 2004


I have to agree with Pyramid Termite regarding American Beauty, and pretty much everyone else regarding Fight Club. As good or bad as the article is, I think the author completely missed out on important parts of both movies. American Beauty is not about subverting the system, it's about someone trying to subvert the system by doing things almost completely defined by the system (buying sportscars, lusting after teenage chicks, and smoking pot are part of the system). And in Fight Club (within the context of the movie), after the narrator loses his house and gives up consumer society, he pretty much stops consuming beyond his base needs (and even then, raises his own food, steals supplies for making bombs, etc.)
posted by bugbread at 6:05 AM on December 12, 2004


also, pyramid termite is quite right about AB, I think - though I would say the plastic bag was not about the beauty, etc. of suburban culture, but the beauty of a mind willing to find/see beauty. Just my interpretation.
posted by taz at 6:05 AM on December 12, 2004


"Having superbly reported from Iraq or not does not affect one's status as a hypocrite on the topic of consumerism." -- Ryvar

Not trying to start a fight here, but I don't understand this argument. Cannot a hypocrite produce a valid argument? It seems like you're saying Klein's lack of consistency absolves anyone from considering her arguments on their merits - isn't this a substitute for thinking?
posted by Ritchie at 6:06 AM on December 12, 2004


jinx, bugbread! But, by Ryvar's definition (if I'm not misunderstanding), the Fight Club ethos is equally consumer/brand driven in the sense that the ultra-aggressive rejection of that influence ends up defining everything about the protagonist(s) existence, which could be argued as an extreme form of brand submission.
posted by taz at 6:13 AM on December 12, 2004


Ritchie: A hypocrite certainly can produce a valid argument, which was exactly my point.

I was responding to this: As far as Naomi Klein, she has done some superb reporting from Iraq. She is hardly to be only judged on a single excerpt from a mere early example of her ongoing body of work.

My point was that Klein's a fine reporter when it comes to Iraq, but completely seperate from and apart from that issue, the author of this article makes a good case when he pegs Klein as a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to consumerism.
posted by Ryvar at 6:15 AM on December 12, 2004


But, by Ryvar's definition (if I'm not misunderstanding), the Fight Club ethos is equally consumer/brand driven in the sense that the ultra-aggressive rejection of that influence ends up defining everything about the protagonist(s) existence, which could be argued as an extreme form of brand submission.

True, but the issue at hand (at least in the article) isn't extreme forms of brand submission that result in a complete disappearance of support for brands, but brand submission that results in people just supporting "alternative" brands.

That is, a person who chooses to avoid major brands and instead "shops indie" is just supporting different brands, and is therefore pretty much self-contradictory. The Amish, however, support no brands, and there is no self-contradiction there.
posted by bugbread at 6:20 AM on December 12, 2004


taz: I hadn't really thought about it in quite those terms, to be perfectly honest. In Fight Club we watch Tyler/Jack completely reject mass-market consumerism. But rather than respond as most do with a form of anti-mass-market consumerism (which is what the author of the article seems to accuse Naomi Klein of), they start growing their own food, live in a house that is falling apart, steal human fat from liposuction clinics to make soap which they sell for money, etc.

I don't feel that I can - or at least am not willing to - respond with quite that level of extremism (especially the bit about blowing up skyscrapers in an effort to destroy the American economy).

What I can do, however, is prevent myself from operating on terms of brand/counter-brand in any capacity whatsoever except where it directly meets my needs, wants, and (as Firas pointed out) principles. My approach is, and you nailed it, that of a "spendthrift who is so self absorbed and dismissive of anyone else's opinion that they would never, ever buy an item simply based on its brand value or cachet."

I have not, and will never understand the concept of luxury cars nor why anyone in their right mind would ever purchase such a thing. I am, for whatever reason, completely colorblind to whatever impulse it is that keeps Lexus afloat.
posted by Ryvar at 6:30 AM on December 12, 2004


That is, a person who chooses to avoid major brands and instead "shops indie" is just supporting different brands, and is therefore pretty much self-contradictory. The Amish, however, support no brands, and there is no self-contradiction there.

Bingo.
posted by Ryvar at 6:35 AM on December 12, 2004


Bugbread, Yes, in terms of the thesis of the article, you're right - Fight Club doesn't seem to support it. If anyone comes across the book and can illuminate the authors' position for us, it would be appreciated. But as far as this thread is concerned, I was really more expanding on the ideas brought up here.

Ryvar, we may not be agreeing about things (in fact, I don't really personally have much of a position on this whole thing - I just find it all intriguing), but what you've said did actually port some ideas for me, so it's all good.
posted by taz at 6:38 AM on December 12, 2004


I find it amusing, maybe supremely ironic that he makes a reference to the Trench Coat Mafia. Columbine was a horrible, horrible event -- but the kids in that particular group had absolutely nothing to do with it; they didn't like the two of 'em either. That didn't keep 'em from getting kicked out of school anyway, of course...

Why ironic? Because it's quite a powerful brand, this Mafia, and even Google has trouble finding anyone else who's aware that it's a completely false bogeyman.
posted by effugas at 6:38 AM on December 12, 2004


Some luxury cars have pretty nice navigation systems and noise cancellation on the car audio. I could live with that. I could give a damn if it's a luxury brand, though.

In fact, it seems like there may be a contradiction in there, Ryvar. What if a luxury car provides you the features you want, and other cars don't? Would you avoid it because it's a "luxury car"?
posted by bugbread at 6:40 AM on December 12, 2004


Why ironic? Because it's quite a powerful brand, this Mafia, and even Google has trouble finding anyone else who's aware that it's a completely false bogeyman.

I think you're overextending the word "brand" by quite a bit. Until there are official, licensed Trenchcoat Mafia goods owned by a single person or company, it isn't a brand.
posted by bugbread at 6:41 AM on December 12, 2004


Some luxury cars have pretty nice navigation systems and noise cancellation on the car audio. I could live with that. I could give a damn if it's a luxury brand, though.

In fact, it seems like there may be a contradiction in there, Ryvar. What if a luxury car provides you the features you want, and other cars don't? Would you avoid it because it's a "luxury car"?


No, and I was kicking myself over this as I reread my post. Some amendment is in order to clarify my meaning:

"My approach is, and you nailed it, that of a 'spendthrift who is so self absorbed and dismissive of anyone else's opinion that they would never, ever buy an item simply based on its brand value or cachet.'"

Tack on a sentence at the end: "Nor would I avoid an item simply based on its brand value or cachet."
posted by Ryvar at 6:45 AM on December 12, 2004


sangermaine: His point is that if you hold yourself to be "against consumerism" or "fighting the Man", and consume accordingly, you are merely following along with the consumerism you are claiming to hate.

Well, that depends on what you mean by "consume accordingly"; it's quite possible to consume accordingly and genuinely subvert (or at least, oppose) consumer culture. As we contirbute to consumer culture by "buying indie", so we can influence consumer culture by buying rationally: Choosing our clothing for usefulness and durability, cooking from scratch, cleaning with simple products, finding joy in spending time on activities and people we care about rather than on things or on paid activities, etc. It's not an all or nothing proposition.

Regarding the Amish, it's worth pointing out that their current way of life is heavily dependent on American consumer culture. You don't need to spend much time in Amish regions to figure that out.

Regarding Fight Club, I find it difficult to understand why thinking, discerning people think that the movie is a critique of consumerism in any really penetrating way. I'd invoke a corrolary of Truffaut's Maxim ("It's impossible to make an anti-war movie because movies will always make war seem exciting"). It's probably impossible (and at least, very difficult) to make a commercially successful anti-consumerist movie, because movies will inherently make consumerism seem glamorous. It would be a bit like getting off crack by switching to powdered blow that's been tinted with food coloring.

Fight club the film is a brand, much as Chuck Palahniuk has become a brand: If someone tells me they "really love Chuck Palahniuk", it gives me a really big clue about that person. It tells me that they probably define themselves -- at least in part, and in proportion to their enthusiasm for the Fight Club or the Palahniuk brand -- in terms of their opposition to something they'd describe as "consumer culture." (Aside: It's interesting to me that that "consumerism" has come to so neatly mask Fight Club's "maculinist" / "male-isolationist" ethos...)

Here's the thing: If you define yourself by opposition to something, then you are defining yourself in the terms of that thing.

As a kid, I was very, very skeptical about civil disobedience, for exacly that reason: I felt that disobedience, per se, was a decision to do something against something else, which meant that you were still defining that you did by what you opposed. I used to say that the highest form of civil disobedience would be to ignore the law. I no longer think it's anywhere near that simple, but I still think it's and important thing to remember.
posted by lodurr at 6:57 AM on December 12, 2004


But, Ryvar - and I'm really, really not trying to start anything personal with you on this - you keep presenting what you do as an argument, as opposed to ideas about the whole question. I'm pretty sure I could beat you out in any consumerblind evaluation, especially since I've been living in a country where, unless I pay special attention and try to parse all the ads, they just pretty much completely bypass me anyway, and even in my previous life I was never a brand consumer at all). But what I do or don't do has little to do with the subject, really, and it would be silly for me to present my habits as an antidote or an argument. It would really be more like bragging that I am not guilty of this one particular sin.
posted by taz at 7:03 AM on December 12, 2004


Ryvar writes: My personal belief is that my own lifestyle - that of brand/counter-brand immunity - is possessed of something far more revolutionary than the Naomi Kleins of the world could ever hope to lay claim to. I do not care what my choice of computers, media, or clothing say about me because I hate my fellow humans far too much to bother considering their opinions. I just go with what gets me the most of what it is I want with my dollar and there are no other considerations.

Nobody said that choosing what you consume based on the opinion it will cause other people to form about you is the only basis of consumerism. You also write that

I consume because if I were to stop consuming I would die or commit suicide due to boredom. I, again, don't really care what that makes people think about me.

Being convinced that you'd be overcome by boredom if you stopped consuming (or rather, consumed a lot less) seems to reflect the success of a pretty ordinary, modern consumer capitalism. Perhaps in a certain "Rebel Sell" demographic this kind of statement will make you unpopular - though I'm not so sure about that - but that's beside the point. Brands and anti-brands are means used to get people to consume, not an end in themselves. The point isn't whether you buy X or Y because of what it makes people think of you - it's just that you keep buying. You may not be the rebel consumer, but you're still a consumer - the more the better.

Nobody's said much about the central conclusion of these authors that individual consumer choices are not the solution for problems created by consumerism - political choices are. Strikes me, for one, as very plausible.
posted by paul! at 7:03 AM on December 12, 2004


even the Grateful Dead sang the praises of four-wheel drive.

That's bullshit... but the rest of the article isn't markedly different than what people like myself have been saying for years. Adbusters exists in order to sell magazines. To see them launch a line of sneakers is cynical beyond belief not because it's unexpected, but because it's so goddamned transparent.

Whether you do something because "it's the in thing" or out of opposition for "the in thing", you're still letting "the in thing" control your behaviour.
posted by clevershark at 7:06 AM on December 12, 2004


I think the consumerism in Fight Club is the audience purchasing a wish fulfillment fantasy of radical masculine identity. That's what Adbusters is selling - a new cooler self.

On preview - what lodurr said.
posted by fleetmouse at 7:07 AM on December 12, 2004


Oh, and to make this whole thing completely circular, "Rebel Sell" is published so that many copies will be sold :-) although it seems like an interesting and fairly well-written book, and that I might get a copy myself.
posted by clevershark at 7:10 AM on December 12, 2004


BTW, Ryvar, you seem to be awfully proud of your transcendence of the petty brand/anti-brand dichotomy. Maybe you're the forerunner of a new truly emancipated class of meta-rebel consumers. You'll change the world by not caring what people think about which brand you buy. Vive la revolution!
posted by paul! at 7:13 AM on December 12, 2004


I'm new here - do I fit in by offering Ryvar a kick to the head while everyone else is doing it?
posted by fleetmouse at 7:16 AM on December 12, 2004


... do I fit in by offering Ryvar a kick to the head ...

No, but you will annoy some people (not me) by pointing out an incipient pile-on...

I actually think that if the (consumerist) world is to be changed, it will be changed largely by not caring what people thinkg about which brand we buy. But we're only human, so that's probably a pretty long slog off.
posted by lodurr at 7:21 AM on December 12, 2004


I hope I'm not being interpreted as kicking Ryvar in the head, because I found a lot of what he's said here very useful seed for thought; if I've challenged him, it's only because he's someone that I think something of, otherwise I really wouldn't have engaged him.
posted by taz at 7:25 AM on December 12, 2004


lodurr I think you might have answered your own question:

Regarding Fight Club, I find it difficult to understand why thinking, discerning people think that the movie is a critique of consumerism in any really penetrating way

It's probably impossible (and at least, very difficult) to make a commercially successful anti-consumerist movie, because movies will inherently make consumerism seem glamorous.

People may have liked Fight Club for its ability to make anarchist, urban-Amish, violently anti-consumer living seem glamorous. I think it had more to say about the perils of taking nihilism beyond a certain point than it does about consumerism - but as garbage out of Hollywood goes, it was probably a good deal better than we humans really deserve.

paul! wrote: Brands and anti-brands are means used to get people to consume, not an end in themselves. The point isn't whether you buy X or Y because of what it makes people think of you - it's just that you keep buying. You may not be the rebel consumer, but you're still a consumer - the more the better.

This is wildly inaccurate. Brands and anti-brands are a means not to the ends of 'keep buying', they're a means to the ends of 'keep buying us.' I hope you can spot how crucial a difference that is. As to the charge that I'm still a consumer - hell yes. I certainly never claimed otherwise. I am the very model of a free-market capitalist consumer, doing his best to resist the mental pathogens that are marketing, branding, and counter-branding.
posted by Ryvar at 7:29 AM on December 12, 2004


To those still hung up on the Fight Club analogy, how are "Fight Club" (in the story context) and "Project Mayhem" not brands in and of themselves?
posted by clevershark at 7:32 AM on December 12, 2004


They have no products for purchase.
posted by bugbread at 7:34 AM on December 12, 2004


bugbread: Is The Catholic Church a brand? How about The Republican Party? How about al Qaeda? As far as I'm concerned, they're all brands, and they all have something "for sale."

"Brand" is really an idea -- a way of understanding these consumable complexes of ideas that we've previously understood as "products" and "services"; a relatively new way. It's a way of packaging different consumptive behaviors together into a (theoretically) mutually-reinforcing complex: If you buy the Nike brand, you're buying a complex of Nike products, all suitably swooshed; you identify with sports figures who are sponsored by Nike; you feel friendlier toward other people who display the swoosh; etc. That's the theory, at least; obviously it's truer for some brands than others, and not as true for any commercial brand as the brandmeisters would like -- Nikeism isn't a religion or even a [sub]culture, and probably never will be. But Catholicism is. Googleism can be. Republicanism can be.
posted by lodurr at 7:45 AM on December 12, 2004


Eh, his definition of "consumerism" is a bit off. This notion that all acts of consumption are a mechanism for defining one self is either trivially true (humans have been after distinction since our cave-dwelling days) or almost always false (most acts of consumption are not conscious or rational acts--and this has always been true).

What is really going on when people pay exorbitant amounts for a specific brand is the process behind Plato's "noble lie." Advertising doesn't work because it fools people into believing Corporation Y's product X is cool--it works because people believe that Corporation Y has the authority to decide what is and what isn't cool. Consumerism, then, is not giving in to "false desires" but rather elevating consumption from the realm of pure choice into a mechanism for recognizing the authority of others. The problem with consumerist societies isn't that they prey on the human need distinction but rather their distinctly repressive nature.

(Think back to the 70's and 80's when people were encouraged to buy "American" cars. This is the real nature of consumerism, IMO, not what MTV or The Gap does when they try to sell a lifestyle to people. And in this sense consumerism very much is an ideology. People too often forget what the first "brands" really were--the coat-of-arms of kings and tribal leaders.)

Even his analysis of "American Beauty" is a bit off. Purchasing the car, for example, might be construed as a way for the protagonist to distinguish himself but it is most definitely not an act of obedience.
posted by nixerman at 7:47 AM on December 12, 2004


BTW, Ryvar, you seem to be awfully proud of your transcendence of the petty brand/anti-brand dichotomy. Maybe you're the forerunner of a new truly emancipated class of meta-rebel consumers. You'll change the world by not caring what people think about which brand you buy.

I'll ignore the jibe and point out that before marketing really swung into high gear over the course of the last century nearly everybody behaved as I do now. My problem is not with the fact that there are shirts on sale - hell, that's life, and I'm glad that there are. My problem is that there are people who will change their opinion of you based on whether you shop at Target or Hot Topic. We as a species have been brainwashed by the lowest form of life on earth: marketing executives.

I hope I'm not being interpreted as kicking Ryvar in the head, because I found a lot of what he's said here very useful seed for thought;

Not at all. I've enjoyed debating with you and everyone else here - the only person who seems to be commenting in bad faith is paul!, and given my attitude towards people I'm not especially concerned about this fact.
posted by Ryvar at 7:49 AM on December 12, 2004


(I do enjoy arguing purely for the sake of arguing, however)
posted by Ryvar at 7:52 AM on December 12, 2004


Lodurr:

The Catholic Church is not a brand. The Republican Party is (as far as I know) not a brand (not sure about that, as I don't know if they have official products or not). Al Qaeda is not a brand. They don't have anything (to my knowledge) for sale. I can't get official Catholic Church candles, or official Republican Party bumperstickers, or official al Qaeda...well, anything, really.

Sure, if you want to make the words "brand", "idea", "concept", "organization", and "meme" mean pretty much the same thing, go to town with it. But that expansion of the meaning of the word means that whenever I talk with you, I'm going to have to adjust everything I say to match your personal definition, which is kinda unwieldy. And then make up a new word to replace the old word, which is also unwieldy.

But, considering the word "brand" the way you phrase it, then: Brands can be very good things, and overall I am in support of them.
posted by bugbread at 7:59 AM on December 12, 2004


To those still hung up on the Fight Club analogy, how are "Fight Club" (in the story context) and "Project Mayhem" not brands in and of themselves?

clevershark that's the basic misunderstanding. Brands are not symbols. There's a big difference between the symbol of the Christian cross and the Nike brand "swoosh." Brands are fundamentally a way of conferring legitimacy (they are about power) while symbols are meant to contribute meaning (they are metaphysical shorthand). You could ask what a symbol means (eg the American flag and the fifty stars) but only what a brand conveys. Another way to look at it: brands are almost an end in themselves (you aren't supposed to look beyond the brand) while that is not true for most symbols.

This probably doesn't make much sense but I'd recommend doing a bit of investigation into the philosophy of propaganda which is very closely related to brands.
posted by nixerman at 8:06 AM on December 12, 2004


Maybe I'm just hopelessly, optimistically myopic, but I happen to enjoy Adbusters in both a casual and philosophical sense, but never thought, at least until the latest issue, which prompts this comment, that the "point" was to not buy anything. Some above have mentioned this, that the actual point is to reinforce a socially constructive economy based on more than Advertising Cool. I take it as a testament against a philosophically cold, heartless economy reinfored, yes, by our actions, and yes, a part of which ironically are the magazines and books themselves. Does that invalidate their content? I think not. Can it mean different things to different people? Sure. Did I just take a cue from Rumsfeld without thinking about it? Maybe so.
posted by odinsdream at 8:10 AM on December 12, 2004


Some luxury cars have pretty nice navigation systems...
My 50 year old car (with peeling bondo and a view of the road through the rust holes in floor) also has GPS and mapping displayed on a 15" LCD (also good for DVDs). That is, when I bring my laptop and gps.
posted by 445supermag at 8:12 AM on December 12, 2004


As Mark Edmundson of the Univ of Virginia said last week on Book Notes: the best piece of writing on living with simplicity is still Thoreau's Walden Pond.
posted by Postroad at 8:13 AM on December 12, 2004


This mefi® thread was a pleasure to spend a bit of Sunday Morning consuming. Thanks gang.
posted by srboisvert at 8:13 AM on December 12, 2004


While we're thanking people - nixerman, those were some beautiful posts.
posted by Ryvar at 8:17 AM on December 12, 2004


bugbread: The Catholic Church is not a brand. The Republican Party is (as far as I know) not a brand...

I would have to disagree, insofar as these are organization that want to sell you something. Even if it's an ideology instead of a T-shirt, they still spend a lot of money and effort in selling you, plus it's not hard to picture the logos (sorry nixerman - they still seem like logos to me) that they use in pursuit of their goal. They are marketing to influence you, just like almost everybody else.
posted by taz at 8:20 AM on December 12, 2004


bugbread - cults are certainly brands - the way Scientology defends its brand is not much different than the way Disney defends its brand - unendingly and litigiously.

Cults like Catholicism, Scientology and the Republican party are, much like Project Mayhem and Fight Club, selling new selves (souls?) to people shopping for identities.
posted by fleetmouse at 8:22 AM on December 12, 2004


most acts of consumption are not conscious or rational acts--and this has always been true

Wha?
posted by trharlan at 8:24 AM on December 12, 2004


bugbread: But that expansion of the meaning of the word means that whenever I talk with you, I'm going to have to adjust everything I say to match your personal definition, which is kinda unwieldy.

No, not really: I'm using the term "brand" in the way that branding professionals use it. To them, al Qaeda is a brand, and so is the Republican Party. I've heard branding folks and other marketing professionalsuse the term that way many times. (That they don't say the same of the Democratic Party is regarded as a failure on the DNC's part.) It's a term of art in advertising and marketing.

That's what I mean when I say that "brand" is a modern idea. It's a modern way of understanding these things, that's suited to capitalist ethos. The Catholic Church is a culture complex, yes, a religion, yes, but it can also be understood as a brand. That understanding would be profoundly incomplete, it's true; and that's the key problem with brands. The only parts of our lives that brands can capture and understand are the parts that are economic; to that end, brand-meisters want to drive emotional attachment to brands -- so-called "lifestyle branding" -- to extend the reach of the brands. Ironically, this works most effectively with anti-brands, like that big national natural food chain that everyone talks about and people swear by but that I can't remember the name of.... [irony /]
posted by lodurr at 8:28 AM on December 12, 2004


Ryvar, thanks.

And again, I'd just like to point that insisting the only "real" way to be anti-consumerist is not to consume is simplistic and wrong. (And of course it doesn't actually resolve the contradiction. I could easily insist even those who consume nothing like the Amish are still consumers because they are letting their (non)consumption define who they are. I guess everybody is a consumer even those who don't consume anything!).

The real problem with omnipresent adverising, brands, and consumerism in general is not the selling of "distinction" and "identity" (this is a means, not an end) but the emphasis on blind obedience. It is ultimately about ideology, legitimacy, authority and power.
posted by nixerman at 8:29 AM on December 12, 2004


... the best piece of writing on living with simplicity is still Thoreau's Walden

pre-emptive snark/anti-snark: Yes, Thoreau could only afford to do it because somebody paid for it. That doesn't mean it's devoid of insight.
posted by lodurr at 8:32 AM on December 12, 2004


I thought the Trenchcoat Mafia bit way overly cutesy, and contributed to the idea that the guy's at least sort of a hack at heart. It's an interesting article, and it was good to post it, but the Trenchcoat Mafia reference makes him a variation on David Brooks, who also likes to throw out references to classic sociology and org theory along with the pop culture talk.
posted by raysmj at 8:39 AM on December 12, 2004


You can buy Amish-made products on the Internet from practically any part of the planet, at any time of day.
posted by raysmj at 8:42 AM on December 12, 2004


I actually think that if the (consumerist) world is to be changed, it will be changed largely by not caring what people thinkg about which brand we buy.

If I get you right, you believe that the social prestige of brands is not just a device used to sell products, but actually the very basis of consumerism itself. If this factor were to become less important, people wouldn't consume so much, or so badly. But social prestige is only one of many devices used to convince people to buy a certain brand, and brands are just one of many devices used to convince people to buy, period.

Me: Brands and anti-brands are means used to get people to consume, not an end in themselves. The point isn't whether you buy X or Y because of what it makes people think of you - it's just that you keep buying. You may not be the rebel consumer, but you're still a consumer - the more the better.

Ryvar: This is wildly inaccurate. Brands and anti-brands are a means not to the ends of 'keep buying', they're a means to the ends of 'keep buying us.' I hope you can spot how crucial a difference that is.


Of course brands are part of a way of getting you to buy a specific product, and not just to buy things in general. What capitalist is going to waste resources on trying to convince people to buy stuff in general, even from competitors? That's not the point.

We started out discussing how people who see their consumer choices as opposed to the excesses of consumerism can end up just getting co-opted. The issue remains: if you actually believe that a culture of excessive and careless consumption is a problem, what do you do about it? Ignoring brands when you buy products is a way of sapping the power of brands themselves, but will it lead to a solution to these broader problems about consumption? I'd lean toward the conclusion reached by the authors of the book: it's just another individual consumer choice solution, and it will never work to resolve the problem of mass overconsumption.

(I'm not really sure, though, from what you say, that you even care about this issue. That's no insult, it's just genuine uncertainty.)
posted by paul! at 8:43 AM on December 12, 2004


Subcultures based on the rejection of mainstream branding (or criteria of coolness) identities form their own systems of brand identity (or criteria of coolness). News at 11.

Really, who didn't know that?

I would think that being utterly brand-agnostic would work as anti- or at least non-consumerist, if you could find a place where the multitude of brands were all arrayed before you--otherwise simply where you went would determine what was available. You would then be forced to choose based on your (subculturally influenced, probably to a strong degree) preferences. But it wouldn't be for a particular brand.
posted by kenko at 8:46 AM on December 12, 2004


those who consume nothing like the Amish are still consumers because they are letting their (non)consumption define who they are. I guess everybody is a consumer even those who don't consume anything!).
nixerman,
the Amish are consumers because they buy things. They tend to buy less toys than the rest of society, but they make money and spend it (a lot goes to buying land, each son needs a farm of his own when he grows up). You seem to be implying that having a philosophy makes you a consumer, I don't think that word means what you think it means.
It is ultimately about ideology, legitimacy, authority and power
What the hell are you trying to communicate here?
What is it? Consumerism? Legitimacy of what? Nice statement unless you think about it.
posted by 445supermag at 8:47 AM on December 12, 2004


Something that's lost in a lot of this thread is that many of the the "high concept-end" (e.g., AdBusters) are former (or current) advertising industry creatives. They have lived, slept, eaten and breathed "brand culture" at a deeper and more profound level than most of us can understand, for a significant portion of their lives. The visual design creatives are probably the most strongly inculcated, since so much of visual design training these days is pop-cultural, and also since they start younger (most of the writing creatives and accounts people I know fell into the business after realizing that they weren't "qualified" for much else).

I don't say this to condemn them, but to provide one explanation for the approach: They are attacking consumerism in the terms of consumerism because those are the weapons they understand. Whether they are effective or not is a separate issue; I think the bulk of them believe in what they're doing, and I think some of them actually have a negative impact on the reach and scope of consumer culture.

As for the fight "against" consumerism, I think that's probably mistaken, as long as the fighters believe they'll actually defeat anything. I don't think we can literally defeat it any more than we could literally adopt Marxism. (Or Libertarianism.) But people fighting against it may be the only way that it gets moderated. Aesthetically, I would prefer individual brand agnosticism, but realistically I don't think that's a practical path to moderating the affect of consumerism in our society.
posted by lodurr at 8:53 AM on December 12, 2004


hmph, I'm so cool I'm having deja vu.
posted by TheSpook at 8:57 AM on December 12, 2004


bugbread - cults are certainly brands - the way Scientology defends its brand is not much different than the way Disney defends its brand - unendingly and litigiously.

Ok. Point taken, and I concede that the Republican Party and the Catholic Church may well be brands, in that a goodly portion of their efforts go into raising/receiving money based on their particular image.

much like Project Mayhem and Fight Club, selling new selves (souls?) to people shopping for identities.

Here, unfortunately, I'm lost again, as I certainly cannot accept the use of the word "sell" to mean "promote" or "provide". I may be out in left field on this, but that seems far too much of a stretch of the word "sell".

Speaking of big stretches:
I could easily insist even those who consume nothing like the Amish are still consumers because they are letting their (non)consumption define who they are. I guess everybody is a consumer even those who don't consume anything!

Er...um...no. A consumer is someone who consumes (or, in the case of humans, a person who purchases). It is not a person who makes decisions based on consumption. A person who does not consume is not a consumer, any more than a herbivore is a carnivore in that they let their non-carnivorous nature define who they are. If that logic were allowed, depressed people would be happy, atheists would be theists, and darkness would be light, in that they define themselves in terms of their opposition.

445supermag is on the money in pointing out that the reasons the Amish are consumers is that they consume, not because they make decisions based on consumption.

Regardless, I think we're starting to flounder here. Unless everyone is actually thinking in terms of absolute and total self-reliance, everyone will consume, and hence be a consumer. The more interesting issue is the core issue of "consumer culture", which is defined partly by advertising, branding, etc., than consumption itself.
posted by bugbread at 8:58 AM on December 12, 2004


Consumers are people who consume. Consumer culture is one in which people define themselves by their consumption. Most people won't be able to get very far in a modern society without being consumers, but opting out of a consumerist culture is still possible.
posted by kenko at 9:03 AM on December 12, 2004


Nixerman, wow (name recognition, branding), very clear writing. Western Europe is massively consumeristic, by the way. One of the stores I shop at (actually the world's largest retailer after W-mart) has employees sporting "How can I help you better consume?" shirts. But we don't take the game as seriously, I think. Store openings, hours and products are all closely regulated, even parking and checking-out are way different (bag your own groceries, buy the bags). I think people here just feel lucky to be able to sometimes buy good products for low prices (not groceries, but stuff like heating irons, furniture, textiles, furnishings, electronic equipment, sporting goods). Perhaps somehow we're less wary and grown-up (but rapidly catching up) about these branding games. The kids here haven't quite yet developed the cynicism that some of us back in the States have after seeing Coke and Pepsi fight over funding their highschools.
posted by faux ami at 9:05 AM on December 12, 2004


I don't get all this brand agnosticism business. Is there any difference between expecting individual indifference to brands to change anything important and expecting individual consumer choices against brands to do so?

To my mind, if there is such a difference, it runs in favour of the argument for conscious, anti-brand consumption: at least in that case people's choices are theoretically oriented toward using consumer power to promote less harmful business practices.

But does anybody here besides me take seriously the authors' case that political action is the only realistic way that the problems with overconsumption might be addressed, and that individual consumer choices will never do it?

As for the fight "against" consumerism, I think that's probably mistaken, as long as the fighters believe they'll actually defeat anything.

How about the fight against ever-increasing, reckless, destructive, pointless mass overconsumption?
posted by paul! at 9:11 AM on December 12, 2004


paul!: I wouldn't so far as to say social prestige is the basis for all of consumerism - but I'd say that in our modern world it is a very, very big factor. My problem is that emphasis on social prestige or counter-culture's definition of social prestige (as an inevitable backlash to the mainstream definition) when making a purchasing decision has lead to people making purchasing decisions that are not necessarily in their own best interests.

My argument is not whether or not consumerism is a major concern, but rather that my purchasing decisions should be solely based on my own self-interest, and not take into account Nike's - or anybody else's - thoughts on the matter.

Of course brands are part of a way of getting you to buy a specific product, and not just to buy things in general. What capitalist is going to waste resources on trying to convince people to buy stuff in general, even from competitors? That's not the point.

You'll have to excuse me, I thought you were making a Brave New World-style argument when I initially read your post. Sorry.

As to the rest, I'm not really convinced that there even is a reasonable solution in a larger sense. All I can do is act in a way that, if everybody else were to do it, would bring the system crashing down to its knees. I'm content with being a drop in what I see as being the "right" bucket, because delusions of being anything more than that are best saved for movies like Fight Club.

on preview, lodurr wrote: I don't think we can literally defeat it any more than we could literally adopt Marxism.

My personal grudge is against marketing and branding, but that sentiment applies. I can't defeat it, but I can live in a way that, adopted en masse, would.
posted by Ryvar at 9:12 AM on December 12, 2004


But does anybody here besides me take seriously the authors' case that political action is the only realistic way that the problems with overconsumption might be addressed, and that individual consumer choices will never do it?

I don't, and let me explain why:

Once an organism has reached a certain level of sophistication and stocked up enough resource it expend energy and time learning to modify its environment in ways that help it earn orders of magnitude more resource per unit of effort expended. When humans do this we call it farming. When corporations do this we call it bribing congressmen.

My point is that overconsumption is good for the corporations of America, and they have a much firmer grip on America's politics than the body politic does (remember Senator Hollings of the successor to the DMCA and how his top three contributors were media companies?). The odds of any constituency managing to change the rules in ways that prohibit, prevent, or even provide incentives against overconsumption within the United States are effectively zero.
posted by Ryvar at 9:24 AM on December 12, 2004


Paul! wrote:

I don't get all this brand agnosticism business. Is there any difference between expecting individual indifference to brands to change anything important and expecting individual consumer choices against brands to do so?

To my mind, if there is such a difference, it runs in favour of the argument for conscious, anti-brand consumption: at least in that case people's choices are theoretically oriented toward using consumer power to promote less harmful business practices.


I think the reason you don't get the agnosticism is that you're looking at the issue from the point of promoting less harmful business practices. Agnosticism will, true, not affect that at all.

I think the standpoint of agnosticism is more in letting needs and product strengths stand on their own, without the baggage of brand image or cachet. I suppose in an amazingly idealistic way, if everyone were totally brand agnostic, there would be far far less advertising in this world (as it would be a big waste o' money). However, I doubt many brand agnostics really think that their approach will completely pervade society.

Instead, I think it's more like the idea of being in a river. Some people get swept down the river. Some people fight against the current. Brand agnostics just say, "fuck this", and get out of the river. It's not going to change the course of the river, but that isn't their goal.
posted by bugbread at 9:28 AM on December 12, 2004


To my mind, if there is such a difference, it runs in favour of the argument for conscious, anti-brand consumption: at least in that case people's choices are theoretically oriented toward using consumer power to promote less harmful business practices.

The difference is roughly that between opposing bad practices, and promoting good ones. That's the key point of the lead article, as I see it: Opposing bad practices does not necessarily promote good ones, because "OppositionTM" can (and will tend to) be branded.

Brand agnosticism, as an approach, seeks to reward the producers of goods or services by buying their products. It's actually a market-rationalist idea (I like it anyway), inasmuch as it is based on the idea that market forces will tend to eliminate useless expenditures, and that the promoters products and services which succeed based on value will no longer need to spend money and effort on branding.

Here, I think "brand agnosticism" has gotten conflated with the idea of moderating consumption. They're not the same, you're right. Brand agnosticism doesn't really imply that branding is wrong -- just that we don't trust it. So it doesn't inherently do anything to curb consumerism. I know a lot of people who are just as consumerist as they always have been, but now instead of flaunting their brands, they brag about how cheap they got their stuff (whether at Walmart, KMart, or Tar-jay).

I remain convinced that lasting improvements to our overconsumption problem can't come from "anti-branding"; they have to come from fairly fundamental changes in our way of life. Consumerism is deeply intertwined with modern capitalism: One can't survive without the other. Consumerism won't die, or even change, easily, and if it's changed by opposition, chances are it will just pop up elsewhere in a new form -- such as an anti-brand.
posted by lodurr at 9:30 AM on December 12, 2004


bugbread nails it.
posted by Ryvar at 9:31 AM on December 12, 2004


The odds of any constituency managing to change the rules in ways that prohibit, prevent, or even provide incentives against overconsumption within the United States are effectively zero.

Sadly. But still....
posted by lodurr at 9:33 AM on December 12, 2004


In a "friendly" fascist culture, by definition, there is no useful distinction between (state) propaganda and (corporate) marketing. The American Taliban's crucifix may as well have a trademark. The American flag may as well have a trademark (and when a flag-burning amendment is passed, it could be adjudicated on the basis of brand dilution).
posted by AlexReynolds at 9:45 AM on December 12, 2004


I think I would have a much easier time digesting anything that Ryvar was saying if it didn't all come out sounding like angsty teenage 'rebellion' in it's purest, most confused form.

Basing your life-direction on the idea that humans are worthless is ridiculous, immature, and totally unproductive. If you truly believe that why not just off yourself, and get it over with? I hope you don't really believe it.

And I can't for the life of me understand what is revolutionary about simply 'not giving a shit' about what people think about what you buy. Keeping informed options in mind for your cash (which we all spend, as we all need to survive, and that's the wonderful thing about capitalism- living ain't free.) is probably one of the few ways that you can actually justify your spending habits in a positive way. realizing that the money you spend goes to larger causes is important, as I'm sure a lot of you know. Buying indie may be trendy, and this author has some good points, but I can't see the relevance of totally discounting people's efforts. I would rather see someone make class-conscious decisions, and consumer-culture-conscious purchase for reasons of fashion than see someone continue to shovel money into the mouth of bad business for any reason. I think in this case the ends do justify the means.

I also wish that all the people who consider themselves to be 'revolutionaries' would fucking drop the whole holier than thou bit. What I'm especially sick of is the separation of me versus they. That's useless, and it does nothing to help our situation. Especially lumping people in under canopies of weight and appearance. Referring to the 'worthless masses' as fat, money spending slobs, and slovenly wal-mart patrons, does absolutely nothing for us. It perpetuates only one kind of thinking and if you think about it, it's one that's already fairly well marketed. Equating capitalism with 'fat capitalists' and consumerism with 'fat slobs' is not working toward any kind of revolution, it's drawing lines between people, and looking out only for those that look physically similar to you. That's fucked up.

Bottom line: If there's to be any hope, community is important. And realizing that we're all human is important, and once we've realized that, then we'll hopefully stop using such divisive language. And people can write as many books as they want decreeing that anti-consumer culture is just as much a branding as Nike or McDonalds, and in many ways they would be right.. but where would they be leading us? If the end goal is "buying whatever the fuck I want, for the best price I can get it, and not giving a crap about what anyone else thinks, ever, because they're stupid, and I'm not." then I have no use for them.

We could all use a little humility, and spend less time talking about the wonderful choices we've made in life, and more participating with those around us to actively make things better for ourselves, and everyone else.
posted by paultron at 9:47 AM on December 12, 2004


Me: much like Project Mayhem and Fight Club, selling new selves (souls?) to people shopping for identities.

bugbread: Here, unfortunately, I'm lost again, as I certainly cannot accept the use of the word "sell" to mean "promote" or "provide". I may be out in left field on this, but that seems far too much of a stretch of the word "sell".

A cult works by providing an identity in exchange for obedience and conformity (or money, or both in many cases). That's how Project Mayhem worked.

Then Fight Club the movie sells the new identity to the audience by proxy in exchange for money for admission to the theater or copies of the DVD.

Sure it's a stretch but there ya go - the audience is consuming product to live out an anti-consumerist fantasy lifestyle, which is the whole point of the original article.
posted by fleetmouse at 9:48 AM on December 12, 2004


I agree with others who have said that the author's conclusion - changing the tax code - is not the greatest answer to the dilemma of a rampant consumerism.

The most powerful critiques of consumerism will probably always be religious. Money is the root of all evil, etc. Like it or not, a figure like Osama Bin Laden probably offers the most compelling, authentic, and truly effective oppositional force against an unfettered consumerism, which, ultimately is what America represents to much of the world. As Osama said in his most recent dispatch from hell:

Meaning that every dollar of al-Qaida defeated a million dollars by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs.....As for the size of the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars

(Interesting not only in the economic damage he claims to have created, but also the economic damage he points out Bush has created...Is Bush the ultimate anti-consumerist?)

As the evil and nihilism of Osama is an end result of anti-consumerism run amock (not far from the Fight Club's conclusions) it does make sense that an intelligent consumerism as others have outlined in the thread is perhaps the sanest response to the dilemma of wanting to oppose a consumerism that many feel has gone too far.

Also, remember that consumerism is the mother of invention that ultimately brings much good to the world as well.

Metafilter is a beautiful place without a consumerist ethos, and Mathowie a saint for letting me join for a simple $5.00 fee, but one could surely not discount the consumerist underpinnings of the whole system....i.e. we could not be writing to one another without the Apple computers and the millions of other brands and companies that allow the internet to exist in this advanced state
posted by extrabox at 9:53 AM on December 12, 2004


I can't defeat it, but I can live in a way that, adopted en masse, would.
Actually, the article saying the opposite. What tends to happen when any demographic is substantially large, even if that demographic is anti-consumer, they become an attractive market to advertisers. Any market that reaches a critical mass is an opportunity.
Instead, I think it's more like the idea of being in a river. Some people get swept down the river. Some people fight against the current. Brand agnostics just say, "fuck this", and get out of the river. It's not going to change the course of the river, but that isn't their goal.
Except, you can't get out of the river entirely. Consumption is a necessary evil unless you personally produce everything you consume. The criteria you use to decide which products to buy, whether it is price, brand or corporate politics, defines where in the river you are. In other words, you have limited direct control over where you are in the river without changing your, but still participating in, consumption. If you are reading this, no matter how anti-consumer you think you are, it is likely that you are still in the top several percentile of consumption in the world.
posted by sequential at 9:53 AM on December 12, 2004


I think you guys have gotten rather too hung up on arguing the toss over the movie references made in the first linked article. Which probably means they were a bad idea on the part of the authors - but I do think it's worth having a read of the Q&A on the authors' site, which I found to be a lot more interesting reading when I first came across this a few months back. I think they make an interesting case, but this is definitely one of those things that wingnuts will love to selectively quote from.

BTW, a few people said things along these lines...

rebellion's been co-opted to make money for decades

The authors' thesis is that "co-optation" doesn't exist...

In our view, there is no such thing as co-optation. What countercultural rebels call co-optation is in fact just competitive consumption, instigated and exacerbated by the rebels themselves. This is why rebellion of this sort has become one of the major forces driving consumer capitalism in the past 40 years.
posted by pascal at 9:56 AM on December 12, 2004


Well, I'm sort of snickering now, mostly at myself, after reading faux ami's comment. When I first moved to Greece, I was moved to outrage on almost a daily basis at how lazy and dismissive everyone was - if you went to the bank to try to make any transaction, they seemed completely bored with the whole venture, and tried to convince you that either it couldn't be done, or that maybe it could... if you came back at another time. If you tried to buy something from any store, it seemed like the main impulse of the person "serving" you was to prove that you were really just a huge pain in the butt... and maybe you should come back at another time. This was quite a culture shock for an American used to everybody kissing and otherwise tenderly moisturizing their ass for a 50-cent s