Worst since Columbine

March 21, 2005 9:16 PM

School shootings in Red Lake Minnesota leave ten dead.
posted by Demogorgon (117 comments total)

I hate you.
posted by prak at 9:18 PM on March 21, 2005

You know that if you had linked to CNN's front page, you could even watch the death toll rise in real time as the reports get updated? Why it's still at "one dead, 14+ others injured" on Fark!
posted by DaShiv at 9:25 PM on March 21, 2005

On behalf of other fivebuckmefites, I apologize for the woeful lack of anything worthwhile coming from my comrades.
posted by nightchrome at 9:29 PM on March 21, 2005

I blame it on the video games.
posted by Witty at 9:36 PM on March 21, 2005

How awful.
posted by mediareport at 9:37 PM on March 21, 2005

*sigh*
posted by everichon at 9:39 PM on March 21, 2005

Culture of Life! Culture of Life! Save Terry Schiavo, stop Gun Control, execute the school shooter!
posted by orthogonality at 9:40 PM on March 21, 2005

I read the news today oh boy
About a lucky man who made the grade
posted by Nelson at 9:45 PM on March 21, 2005

Oh God. We're going to find out he played Doom or Grand Theft Auto like millions of other teenage boys his age and then it's all going down the shitter.

In advance I would like to offer my sympathies to the families of the victims for the inevitable trivialization of their loved ones' deaths.
posted by schroedinger at 9:49 PM on March 21, 2005

I just don't get it. Marilyn Manson isn't even popular anymore...
posted by santiagogo at 9:49 PM on March 21, 2005

Lovely. Time to imprison all our children!
posted by furiousthought at 9:54 PM on March 21, 2005

... and this is what happens when there are way too many guns in the hands of way too many people. (As if we needed anymore proof!)

Also, I think we should find out what kind of music he was listening to and then ban those artists and make them pay damages to the victims. (You shoulda thought of that before Green Day and Eminem!)
posted by sour cream at 9:56 PM on March 21, 2005

So that was half sarcasm, half not... sour cream?
posted by Witty at 9:58 PM on March 21, 2005

Insane Clown Posse, Halo, and South Park first; mental problems, family upbringing, and peer ridicule second.
posted by Mach3avelli at 10:00 PM on March 21, 2005

Maybe is was half NOT and half sarcasm... I dunno.
posted by Witty at 10:08 PM on March 21, 2005

Adding some context to this slim post:

2000 Census says 97.69% of the 1,430 folks in Red Lake are Native American.
From Yahoo! News' school violence page, a December Christian Science Monitor article, "Why school violence is declining."
Timeline of School violence around the world, updated Nov. 2004.
posted by mediareport at 10:17 PM on March 21, 2005

If only this young boy was allowed to see Janet Jackson's boob during the Super Bowl, none of this...

No, Wait!!

If all the teachers in every school had been issued pistols to keep their classrooms safe, the kid wouldn't have..

Or Howabout..

I blame Kerry!!

/Terrrible terrible thing.. Scapegoating will be done.
posted by Balisong at 10:17 PM on March 21, 2005

$10 says this gets news for a day and falls off the radar. Red Lake ain't a rich white Colorado suburb. Now had it happened in Edina...
posted by DonnieSticks at 10:26 PM on March 21, 2005

Goth kids these days. In my youth we just did a lot of cheap drugs and had meaningless awkward sex whilst listening to Current 93. The closest we ever got to self-mortification was hot candlewax on the nipples, let alone a fucking 12-gauge.
I can understand self-destruction as a means of dealing with angst, but christ at least the kid ought to have FUN while he's doing it. Furthermore, I got back at my enemies by writing horrible poetry, and in retrospect that's a better form of karmic justice than shooting them in the head. I'm sure Eddie Harbison would've preferred the gunshot to sitting through my recital of "Ribbons of Blood". In French.

Anyway, time to disseminate this amazing Warren Ellis comic again.
posted by xthlc at 10:34 PM on March 21, 2005

$10 says this gets news for a day and falls off the radar. Red Lake ain't a rich white Colorado suburb.

$100 says one brain-dead Schiavo in a red state gets more airtime and legal attention than fourteen dead non-Cauc's somewhere in a blue state.
posted by AlexReynolds at 10:43 PM on March 21, 2005

This is absolutely chilling. [cached nazi forum] Note the comment re: 20/4 - Hitlers birthday.
posted by tellurian at 11:00 PM on March 21, 2005

No, it will get a lot of attention because of the body count, followed by several days of "human interest" media coverage on the plight of the Indians living in poverty (80% at that reservation). It will make a good sob story for the liberals, and the righties are going to get their righteous indignity, because when they say he shot his grandparents, I can basically guarantee you that they were raising him, that his father has never been around, and his mother is controlled by booze, drugs, or both.
posted by MillMan at 11:01 PM on March 21, 2005

$100 says one brain-dead Schiavo in a red state gets more airtime and legal attention than fourteen dead non-Cauc's somewhere in a blue state.

Imagine if they were gay too.
posted by Witty at 11:01 PM on March 21, 2005

Just to make it clear. Demogorgon's link identifies Jeff Weise as the killer. Todesenge introduces himself: My name is Jeff Weise, a Native American from the Red Lake "Indian" reservation in Minnesota. Looks like he had been planning for at least a year.
posted by tellurian at 11:13 PM on March 21, 2005

$10 says this gets news for a day and falls off the radar. Red Lake ain't a rich white Colorado suburb.

It's so wrong that you are so right.


.
posted by caddis at 11:14 PM on March 21, 2005

Imagine if they were gay too.

Nah, 'cause if they were gay, Repubs heads would explode everywhere with sheer delight. It's not every week you'd get to pretend you're God by saving vegetables, then wallow in God's Glory over a child exacting holy revenge on dirty sinners. You guys already got your pound of flesh this week, sorry. Maybe next time.
posted by AlexReynolds at 11:25 PM on March 21, 2005

I almost feel sorry for you Alex.
posted by Witty at 11:42 PM on March 21, 2005

Save your pity. You'll need it for the next group you'll be belittling.
posted by AlexReynolds at 11:53 PM on March 21, 2005

tellurian, where did you find that link? That is chilling.

Also, here's more info about the Red Lake Reservation.
posted by mediareport at 11:54 PM on March 21, 2005

You'll need it for the next group you'll be belittling.

Nahh... I'll stick with angry, bitter homosexuals.
posted by Witty at 11:57 PM on March 21, 2005

There's probably going to be a huge fit about this now, and people will freak out and try to ban guns or video games. Stupid rules will be enacted, moronic zero-tolerance policies will be enforced. It'll be a pain in the ass for students everywhere. Meanwhile, it'll take at most a couple of weeks for drunk drivers to mow down more kids than this guy did.
posted by Mitrovarr at 12:00 AM on March 22, 2005

Nahh... I'll stick with angry, bitter homosexuals.

Don't change your name, it suits you.
posted by AlexReynolds at 12:01 AM on March 22, 2005

You can stop any time, guys.
posted by mediareport at 12:07 AM on March 22, 2005

In Tolitarian America, Wit suits YOU!
posted by Balisong at 12:09 AM on March 22, 2005

from mediareports' link:

That is why tribal leaders decided to join with two other tribal bands in Gov. Tim Pawlenty's proposal for a joint state-tribal casino in the Twin Cities area, a proposal that is pending before the Legislature.

*sigh*
posted by milnak at 12:10 AM on March 22, 2005

AlexReynolds : " Nah, 'cause if they were gay, Repubs heads would explode everywhere with sheer delight. It's not every week you'd get to pretend you're God by saving vegetables, then wallow in God's Glory over a child exacting holy revenge on dirty sinners. You guys already got your pound of flesh this week, sorry. Maybe next time."

Well, we can only hope that none of the kids who were killed had ever had a same-sex sexual experience, or soon we'll be hearing about "Bob Smith, the courageous gay hero who died in the school massacre, and 9 other folks of less important sexual orientation who also appear to have been killed."
posted by bugbread at 3:58 AM on March 22, 2005

Just for reference, no, I don't really believe that. I just figured a hyperbolic, hypothetical, charicature-based snark should be met with a hyperbolic, hypothetical, charicature-based snark. Call it "fighting fire with fire", or "yin and yang".
posted by bugbread at 4:07 AM on March 22, 2005

Note to future school shooters: You've got to shoot up a white, suburban school to make the news.
posted by wfrgms at 4:12 AM on March 22, 2005

tellurian: you scooped it. how very, very sad for that kid to have so much disdain.
posted by moonbird at 4:40 AM on March 22, 2005

wfrgms : " Note to future school shooters: You've got to shoot up a white, suburban school to make the news."

You don't consider being on the front page of CNN to be "making the news"?

Man, it's like a convention of Bush Republicans in here: Faith over Reality. This is making the news. Front page of CNN.com, front page of Google News, front page of New York Times.com, front page of Los Angeles Times.com, front page of MSNBC.com, etc.

If reality doesn't match your preconceptions, then you should not choose to ignore reality, you should change your preconceptions.
posted by bugbread at 4:45 AM on March 22, 2005

.
posted by sciurus at 5:04 AM on March 22, 2005

That was an interesting link, tellurian. I'd not seen a discussion between Nazis and Native Americans before. Pretty weird stuff.

Something tells me there ain't too many Jews in that particular corner of Minnesota...
posted by ph00dz at 5:05 AM on March 22, 2005

This is making the news.

Remember Columbine? There was wall-to-wall cable coverage. I have yet to see pictures of this.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:00 AM on March 22, 2005

bugbread, in a more rational moment in the life of your nation this massacre would have wiped the "will they feed Schiavo's corpse or not" story off the media. as CL said, Columbine coverage was wall-to-wall. funnily enough, the fifth day of the Schiavo saga seems to have been deemed more newsworthy by the lib'rul media than a simple school massacre.

but maybe you're right, Schiavo will start speaking any moment now and play chess with Tom DeLay (well I guess she'll have to teach him how to play first), so who cares about kids bringing shotguns at school and exercising their Second Amendment Rights. let's all follow this Schiavo story instead.
posted by matteo at 8:07 AM on March 22, 2005

In the New York Times this morning it did make the front page, but not above the fold. It was tucked down into the lower right hand corner. CNN is not featuring it as the main story, and does not even mention all the disturbing Nazi connections (if anything keeps this in the news it will be that).
posted by caddis at 8:08 AM on March 22, 2005

Remember Columbine? There was wall-to-wall cable coverage. I have yet to see pictures of this.

This was mentioned on the news. Due to the remote location of the school, the scene wasn't as accessible to the camera crews.
posted by unreason at 8:11 AM on March 22, 2005

yeah, i watched the network news this morning... no coverage of this, but i did catch a segment on the coolest new gadgets for your home...
posted by cusack at 8:29 AM on March 22, 2005

BESIDES, 9/11 CHANGED EVARYTHING!!!11!!!
posted by quonsar at 8:30 AM on March 22, 2005

I got a little chill when I read the shooter post "Once I commit myself to something, I stay until the end..." Brrrrrr. Thanks for the link, tellurian.
posted by MegoSteve at 8:35 AM on March 22, 2005

Racism is probably at play here, but the remoteness is probably a bigger factor. Columbine was covered live shortly after the shootings began. This is also an enclosed, isolated community of People Not Like Us. We paid attention to Columbine because They Were People Just Like Us And It Could Be Us Next.

Everything - everything - is controlled by the proximity to the TV camera. If it's not live, it matters less. That's the way news works.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 8:37 AM on March 22, 2005

This is the stupidest thread in living memory. Maybe I should expect this, but I didn't; I thought maybe, given that a lot of people died here and all, everybody might let go of their idiotic political bitternesses and talk about what actually happened.

So can anybody tell me why exactly this thread turned into a thread about Terry Sciavo and Republicans? Even if this story were about them, I sincerely doubt we'd get anywhere rehashing stuff we all already know.

nightchrome: "On behalf of other fivebuckmefites, I apologize for the woeful lack of anything worthwhile coming from my comrades."

*sigh...* That goes triple for me.
posted by koeselitz at 8:44 AM on March 22, 2005

thought maybe, given that a lot of people died here and all, everybody might let go of their idiotic political bitternesses and talk about what actually happened

"To dream the Impossible dream....."

koeselitz, I imagine everybody had their 5 seconds of shock and sadness, then immediately turned their energy to spinning the incident to better reflect their own worldview.
posted by jonmc at 8:47 AM on March 22, 2005

Comparing this story and the Schiavo story, in many ways I can see why there might be a focus on the latter. It has potential implications for many of the population and is practically 'new' in the sense that much of what has gone on is precedent setting, which sadly cannot be said for the school massacre to a significant extent. The debate over violence in schools will only be a rehash of the stories that have gone before.
posted by biffa at 8:55 AM on March 22, 2005

Similar article to what mediareport posted above, with some additional information about the reservation. Article from the Saint Paul Pioneer Press about the gunman (reg. req.)
posted by Arch Stanton at 8:56 AM on March 22, 2005

Native American Nazis? So next we'll be seeing Gay Jewish Nazis? Talk about "unclear on the concept".
posted by davy at 9:02 AM on March 22, 2005

Native American Nazis? So next we'll be seeing Gay Jewish Nazis? Talk about "unclear on the concept".

I don't know. Perhaps the urge to divide the planet up into "pure," ethnic tribes ruled by fascistic thugs crosses racial lines.
posted by jonmc at 9:04 AM on March 22, 2005

I've seen some camera footage, not much. There just aren't any news 9 choppers flying around.

I don't understand some of you people. Tim Russert and Chris Matthews were right last night (@ 6:00 min into the video). Gone are the days when people can disagree and still be respectful about it. /OT
posted by tomplus2 at 9:10 AM on March 22, 2005

If you want info on Red Lake.....go to Red Lake.

The distinctive thing about Red Lake, if I remember correctly, is that the lands were never subject to "allotment", so the whole reservation is still in native hands (unlike White Earth, where big chunks of land labelled "reservation" on the maps are actually owned by whites, because allotments were sold off over the years).

I've known a couple of people from Red Lake over the years...nice folks. I don't have any experience myself of what it's like to live on the "rez", though.
posted by gimonca at 9:17 AM on March 22, 2005

Er, in one of the articles it said a couple of reporters were driven off the reservation. Does anyone know if this is widespread? If camera crews are being denied access the media leeches can't do their thing.

If you read the guy's Nazi comments, it seems less of a "white power" thing than a "keep the Native American race pure" thing. The white power movement naturally has ties to racial purity folks, but I maybe they're a subset rather than the whole? I doubt the teenager has put as much thought into beyond "kip teh blud cleen omgomg".
posted by schroedinger at 9:18 AM on March 22, 2005

I doubt the teenager has put as much thought into beyond "kip teh blud cleen omgomg".

While the connections and similarities between racial separitists of all kinds is interesting, my general feeling on this is that this kid was full of general anger at the world and wanted to fuck shit up, then went looking for an ideology to hang his rage on.
posted by jonmc at 9:20 AM on March 22, 2005

I think jonmc has it right.
posted by caddis at 9:23 AM on March 22, 2005

everybody might let go of their idiotic political bitternesses and talk about what actually happened.

I'd like to, if the US lib'rul media actually gave me more info about these massacre than about Schiavo's "culture of life" supporters. that's the whole point koeselitz. you don't like the analysis of the US media coverage? fine. provide some of your own. I'll be happy to read it.
posted by matteo at 9:24 AM on March 22, 2005

matteo, I see your point, but for the love of God, please stop using the word "lib'rul," it's a cliche, it's insulting and it stopped being funny about the 4,000,000,000th time it was used.

*deep breath*

thanks.
posted by jonmc at 9:28 AM on March 22, 2005

Gone are the days when people can disagree and still be respectful about it.

Really?! Just when exactly WERE those days again? ;-P
posted by mischief at 9:35 AM on March 22, 2005

Racist extremists of different colors get along better than you'd think. The talk is always about purity and pride, and each assumes his own race to be the True Master Race, but they're willing to deal with each other to defeat their imaginary mutual threats.
There are maps drawn up with the continents divided among various races. For some reason, America is usually reserved for white people, not natives.
posted by sonofsamiam at 9:36 AM on March 22, 2005

There are maps drawn up with the continents divided among various races. For some reason, America is usually reserved for white people, not natives.

Racist extremists of different colors get along better than you'd think.

I liken it to Mafia families dividing up territory, actually.
posted by jonmc at 9:41 AM on March 22, 2005

*hands jonmc some chamomile tea*
posted by matteo at 9:43 AM on March 22, 2005

matteo: "I'd like to, if the US lib'rul media actually gave me more info about these massacre than about Schiavo's "culture of life" supporters. that's the whole point koeselitz. you don't like the analysis of the US media coverage? fine. provide some of your own. I'll be happy to read it."

So far as I can tell, this news story hasn't even been pushed off the front page and replaced yet; we're only speculating that it will. This doesn't amount to "analysis of the US media coverage;" it amounts to angry predictions about what the US media will or will not cover. (And the three comments I linked above weren't even that, really.) While I don't doubt that this will happen, and you're right, it's horrible, talking about it on and on like this only brings it about. This is now apparently a thread about Terry Schiavo. Isn't that what you wanted to avoid?

This is how modern partisanship works. The parties like it that they're viewed as the only two poles in a complex world. When we hasten to take sides and draw snap judgements, it's because they've taught us to be dogmatic in this way. The solution isn't to complain loudly about the fact that Republicans do this (I agree, they do, and it's stupid) but to show the correct way by ignoring the party hacks and talking about reality rather than "the reaction of the US media," which is secondary or tertiary at best.
posted by koeselitz at 9:45 AM on March 22, 2005

*hands jonmc some chamomile tea*

*pours generous belt of Jamesons in, sips calmly*
posted by jonmc at 9:46 AM on March 22, 2005

The forum post is signed "Todesengel," which is German for "death angel."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:55 AM on March 22, 2005

All of the media I saw this morning covered the shooting, and they covered it from the same angle I viewed it: tragic. I thought when I clicked this thread that it would be a bunch of periods or mournful comments. Instead, I was surprised to see the instant politicalization and snarkiness. Its almost as if the effect of these dead people and their families are irrelevant to some of you; some of you see this more as a political issue and are concerned with which side can score political points. And pardon my outrage, but I find that despicable. The irony appears to be lost on people whose first reaction is "the Other will politicize this event or not give it its due because it isn't politically appealing."

My advice to some of you, and one person in particular: if you can't engage this story without viewing it through your political lense.... if you can't react to this story without thinking to yourself is this good/bad for Democrats/Republicans.... then you need to get your ass away from the internet and your poliblogs and get some damned perspective in this world. Such people have obviously become too myopic due to an insular obsession with certain politics.

This is tragedy, for pete's sake. I don't how the hell you people turned this into a gay issue or racist issue or media issue or about Schiavo.
posted by dios at 10:11 AM on March 22, 2005

"I don't how the hell you people turned this into a gay issue or racist issue or media issue or about Schiavo."

Perhaps you just need to open your mind a bit more. You know, think outside the box. A little flexibility never hurt anyone. ;-P
posted by mischief at 10:18 AM on March 22, 2005

koeselitz, ok.

*pours generous belt of Jamesons in, sips calmly*

jon, did you know that Jenna chose her porn name as a hommage to her favorite alcoholic beverage?
posted by matteo at 10:18 AM on March 22, 2005

I've always been more of Danni Ashe man, matteo, but I suppose we can be thankful Jenna didn't drink this stuff.
posted by jonmc at 10:22 AM on March 22, 2005

Its almost as if the effect of these dead people and their families are irrelevant to some of you; some of you see this more as a political issue and are concerned with which side can score political points.

dios, didn't Matt ban you? anyway, welcome back.

reading your comment, one thinks you're talking about the tsunami or another natural disaster. not the case.
this is another appalling, classic case of American gun violence.
you know, if people here really wanted to politicize this massacre, they could have mentioned the NRA power to destroy all kinds of rational legislation re guns, the many NRA servants all over Capitol Hill, the shameful conditions of way too many American poor, etc.

or, you know, we could have mentioned how not too many Columbine-style slaughters happen in non-USian schools, even though kids all over the world listen to Marilyn Manson.

see? NRA. gun violence. America's gun fetish. metal detectors in schools.
care to discuss that? I would, but I'm reluctant to take good taste lessons from you. I'd rather discuss porn names with my friend jon.
posted by matteo at 10:28 AM on March 22, 2005

they covered it from the same angle I viewed it: tragic. I thought when I clicked this thread that it would be a bunch of periods or mournful comments. [...] Its almost as if the effect of these dead people and their families are irrelevant to some of you; some of you see this more as a political issue and are concerned with which side can score political points. And pardon my outrage, but I find that despicable.

It's no more tragic than, say, the thousands dying daily from AIDS-related complications in Africa. (Some might argue that on a purely numerical and preventability basis it's considerably less tragic, but I don't think "tragedy" is subject to simple arithmetic.) What I see as relevant to thread are (a) why this is newsworthy to the global community (or not), and (b) why this is "best of the web" (or not). Personally, my own answers are yes to (a) and no to (b), and with the same reason for both: because of CNN and their ilk.

I also object to your implication that anything related to "death" or "tragedy" must be spoken of in reverential tones. There's so much death in the news and in the world that we'd never get over our own attempts to be more pious-than-thou. I've yet to find any recent tragedies that haven't been politicized one way or another, so I hope you have enough outrage left to go around.
posted by DaShiv at 10:31 AM on March 22, 2005

I can imagine that outsiders might not be welcome in Red Lake today. These people are legitimately traumatized by the violent actions of one of their own, and Indians still feel stigmatized by their neighbors as violent and backward.

I know Red Lake well. I worked on another reservation closer to the North Dakota border-- an extremely nice and accepting place-- but I drove through Red Lake many times. It is very poor by Minnesota standards, but I certainly never felt unwelcome or unsafe.

People in the rural Midwest can be a little stand-offish and clannish, particularly when they feel that outsiders are looking down on them. Race relations could be better in Minnesota, but racial extremists aren't the norm. Alienated people of any stripe look for reasons to feel alienated.

I'm holding out on making any judgements until the smoke has cleared. It's a very sad day for this community. I suspect that this has as much to do with violence in American culture today as it does with radical Native American politics.

Sorry if this is rambling. I really like this part of the country, and a lot of the Chippewa I met there.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 10:41 AM on March 22, 2005

Er, in one of the articles it said a couple of reporters were driven off the reservation. Does anyone know if this is widespread? If camera crews are being denied access the media leeches can't do their thing.

Red Lake is a "closed" reservation, meaning that the tribe (while on the rez) are not subject to Minnesota state law, but only federal law:

"The tribal government has full sovereignty over the reservation, subject only to federal legislation specifically intended to deal with Red Lake, which makes it a "closed" reservation. The Tribe has the right to limit who can visit or live on the reservation. It has never been subject to State law. The Red Lake tribe withdrew in 1918 from the General Council for the Chippewa, intended to bring all Ojibwe into one tribal structure, and continued to maintain its own identity separate from the MCT. There are many legal and program differences between Red Lake and the other state reservations. The Tribe has its own constitution providing for elected officials representing the four reservation areas and a participating council of hereditary chiefs. While the federal government is responsible for major criminal matters, as specified in federal law, the Tribe has jurisdiction in all other criminal matters. Its court has full jurisdiction over civil and family court matters."

There are only a few closed reservations left.
posted by Juicylicious at 10:43 AM on March 22, 2005

indianz.com has great coverage.

This is so sad...he was a kid, he killed kids and parents and his own grandparents...why?

I am glad the tribe kept the gawkers out!

And shame on those of you who can't even bring yourselves to admit that this was horrible, no matter the reason.

This is a sad thing that happened.
posted by gminks at 11:03 AM on March 22, 2005

In other cases, I'd buy the anti-gun angle, but apparently he stole the weapon from his grandfather, who was a cop. Tougher gun laws wouldn't have done much in this instance.
posted by jonmc at 11:08 AM on March 22, 2005

Juicylicious, I know that the reservation has the right to keep reporters off, I was wondering if the beating-back had happened to more than the two previously mentioned.
posted by schroedinger at 11:08 AM on March 22, 2005

re: tragedy - doesn't a tragedy imply that there was a valiant struggle, followed by defeat? It always bothered me that 9/11 was always termed a tragedy. People died, they didn't struggle valiantly against the jetliners.

From the Yahoo/AP report I read this morning, apparently the grandfather is a veteran 1st nations police officer and the source of the guns. Also, the school already had in place stringent controls against violence and had metal detectors installed. The first person killed was the guard at the metal detector.

Guns aren't the problem, zero-tolerance isn't a solution. I seriously believe that more effort placed into school counceling services would serve to deter these situations than firearms regulation or lockdowns at schools.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 11:17 AM on March 22, 2005

Embers snapping in the darkness.
posted by daq at 11:18 AM on March 22, 2005

whoops, jonmc beat me to it on the gun angle - cheers man
posted by PurplePorpoise at 11:18 AM on March 22, 2005

And shame on those of you who can't even bring yourselves to admit that this was horrible, no matter the reason.

Let's keep this is perspective. Nobody here was saying this wasn't a shame: they were commenting on the lack of attention in the media. It's some kind of fucked up how little attention is paid to school violence, particularly when minorities are the victims. I say this as someone who witnessed school violence first hand, and as someone who knows this area.

On a completely unrelated note, If the reservation is closing itself off, it's a reaction to this terrible event. It's not normally a xenophobic or a dangerous place.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 11:22 AM on March 22, 2005

gesamtkunstwerk, I have to wonder how much you know about ndn people if you don't see this as a normal reaction to what happened.
posted by gminks at 11:45 AM on March 22, 2005

Racist extremists of different colors get along better than you'd think. The talk is always about purity and pride, and each assumes his own race to be the True Master Race, but they're willing to deal with each other to defeat their imaginary mutual threats.

I get it: then there'll be "racially pure" Chippewa fighting "racially pure" American-Born Chinese, or something, over something or other, and each will have other "racially pure" bunches sympathizing with 'em. What a silly idea. And weren't most of the people he shot the same "race" as him?

I don't know what that has to do with the shooting, except to point out that he was stupid and nuts -- and didn't have many friends nearby for some reason. "Maybe the Nazis will like me!" If so it's too bad nobody told him about MetaFilter; this is a fine place for friend-making, eh?
posted by davy at 12:02 PM on March 22, 2005

Said Vernon Bellecourt, brother of Clyde Bellecourt, a founder of AIM: "No one would ever think that that type of violence would visit itself in our communities, it's not part of our culture and our traditions, so we're kind of puzzled by it all." [From NYT.]

Going violently batshit on people of your own tribe, no. You're supposed to do that against the next tribe over, and they do it back, for eons. One reason the Cherokee lost out to the whites over here is they were too focused on continuing their age-old feud with the Creeks instead. And, I might add, when you're facing a "racial enemy" there are no fouls, as opposed to the inticate code covering in-group relations.

But anyway.
posted by davy at 12:12 PM on March 22, 2005

"Meanwhile, it'll take at most a couple of weeks for drunk drivers to mow down more kids than this guy did." - Mitrovarr

Considering the U.S.A. alone, more like 5 hours. Approximately 47 people were killed in drunk driving accidents each day in 2001 according to these numbers.
posted by nTeleKy at 12:23 PM on March 22, 2005

I'm surprised that none of you have found his livejournal. Heh.
posted by blacklite at 1:17 PM on March 22, 2005

Such people have obviously become too myopic due to an insular obsession with certain politics.

You're cute, dios; don't ever change.
posted by AlexReynolds at 2:12 PM on March 22, 2005

That livejournal is just plain creepy, and then all the people commenting in it . . .
posted by caddis at 3:35 PM on March 22, 2005

Considering the U.S.A. alone, more like 5 hours. Approximately 47 people were killed in drunk driving accidents each day in 2001 according to these numbers.

Well, yeah, but something like 80% of those who die are the drunk drivers themselves. I know whenever a drunk kills someone else they always seem to survive, but I think mostly they hit stationary obstacles or roll their vehicles. Most of the 20% will be in other age groups. So probably a couple weeks before you get 10 non-drinkers in the right age groups.

As for why this is getting less coverage than Columbine, I think the answer is simple; Columbine was first, and it was a huge shock to everyone. Now that Columbine has already happened, we're desensitized a little and won't react so strongly, even to an equivalent event.
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:40 PM on March 22, 2005

I'm surprised that none of you have found his livejournal. Heh.

I'm nothin' but your average Native American stoner.

Well, now we know what we'll be hearing about for the next couple weeks.
posted by kickingtheground at 3:46 PM on March 22, 2005

Well, now we know what we'll be hearing about for the next couple weeks.

Just saw NBC news and they played up the Nazi angle, with screen shots of those web site comments. They didn't even mention his father's suicide, or his mother's brain injury.

Something happened in the past few months that set him off, and there was no support system in place to help him. From his journal linked to above (date 1/27/04):

I sacrifice no more for others, part of me has fucking died and I hate this shit.

I'm living every mans nightmare and that single fact alone is kicking my ass, I really must be fucking worthless. This place never changes, it never will. Fuck it all
posted by Bort at 4:09 PM on March 22, 2005

Reefer Madness is as dangerous now as it was in the 1940's, apparently. those damn hemp products will make you kill your grampa!
posted by matteo at 4:10 PM on March 22, 2005

gesamtkunstwerk, I have to wonder how much you know about ndn people if you don't see this as a normal reaction to what happened.

??? I have to wonder how closely you read. I never said it was abnormal to close yourself off after a shooting. I just said if they were turning away reporters, it was a reaction to an event, not an habitual dislike of outsiders.

I didn't like the insinuations that Red Lake is some exotic, racially xenophobic place. It doesn't seem that way at all.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 4:15 PM on March 22, 2005

I'm finding it hard to believe that this kid killed nine people, and some of the people now posting comments to his livejournal did not.
posted by halcyon_daze at 4:22 PM on March 22, 2005

As for why this is getting less coverage than Columbine, I think the answer is simple; Columbine was first, and it was a huge shock to everyone. Now that Columbine has already happened, we're desensitized a little and won't react so strongly, even to an equivalent event.

Columbine was far from the first event of its kind, and far from the last. I sincerely doubt it would have gotten as much play if the kids weren't upper-middle class.

Your analogy with drunk drivers is bizarre. People pay quite a bit of attention to drunk driving. There are powerful lobby groups pressing for tightened laws-- ever town has a MADD chapter. The same can't really be said for school violence.

I don't understand how you can get world weary over things like this. I don't want to get holier than thou, but Christ, these were innocent people: a police officer, a teacher and children for god's sake.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 6:04 PM on March 22, 2005

Columbine was far from the first event of its kind, and far from the last. I sincerely doubt it would have gotten as much play if the kids weren't upper-middle class.

Well, it was the most spectacular, for lack of a better word.
posted by jonmc at 6:23 PM on March 22, 2005

I don't understand how you can get world weary over things like this. I don't want to get holier than thou, but Christ, these were innocent people: a police officer, a teacher and children for god's sake.

I don't know if "world weary" is the correct term, gesamtkunstwerk. I think "numb," might be more accurate. We're bombarded by horror on a daily basis by the media, if we didn't anesthetize ourselves somewhat, we'd probably go insane. Dosen't mean we lack compassion, just that people have different ways of coping.
posted by jonmc at 6:52 PM on March 22, 2005

Mitrovarr : " As for why this is getting less coverage than Columbine, I think the answer is simple; Columbine was first, and it was a huge shock to everyone. Now that Columbine has already happened, we're desensitized a little and won't react so strongly, even to an equivalent event."

I agree. I'm surprised that people are arguing "hey, this isn't getting as much coverage as Columbine! It must be because the victims weren't white!" It seems a lot more likely that it isn't getting as much coverage because it was less unprecedented, fewer people were killed, it was more remote and hard to cover, and less dramatic (one kid killing a bunch of people is generally less dramatic than multiple kids killing a lot of people).

gesamtkunstwerk : " Columbine was far from the first event of its kind, and far from the last. I sincerely doubt it would have gotten as much play if the kids weren't upper-middle class."

We disagree. Columbine hit me pretty hard when it happened, not because a bunch of white kids got killed, but because a bunch of kids got killed, because they were killed by two kids, not a lone attacker, because they used handmade bombs, because there were fears of boobytrapping bodies. It was an entirely different beast than school murders before it. And it wasn't because of media saturation: being in Japan, I had to actively look for information; it wasn't just on whenever I turned on the TV.

In this case, it's a single angry kid with a gun. It is, unfortunately, just plain less interesting and less shocking. It's just as sad/unfortunate/tragic, but sad/unfortunate/tragic is not the only barometer for getting press coverage.
posted by bugbread at 7:50 PM on March 22, 2005

We're bombarded by horror on a daily basis by the media, if we didn't anesthetize ourselves somewhat, we'd probably go insane. -johnmc

"See honey, another reason I should drink more!"

(TM,YDWTK.)
posted by davy at 8:29 PM on March 22, 2005

matteo:I'd like to, if the US lib'rul media actually gave me more info about these massacre than about Schiavo's "culture of life" supporters.
Well it's been at least two days and the Minnesota shooting story is still in the Top Stories slot on news.google.com (along with the Schiavo case). Any ignorance on the matter seems to be purely your own and not the media's.

Another reason why the Columbine shooting received a lot of attention was the fact that there were two shooters. I think every single other school shooting had been an individual shooter. It adds a lot of angles to the story.
posted by PenDevil at 11:40 PM on March 22, 2005

The Minneapolis Star Tribune website has updated with some good information about the shootings including a chronology of events inside the school.
posted by Arch Stanton at 11:56 PM on March 22, 2005

tellurian's link and the LiveJournal one by blacklite gave me goosebumps.
posted by slf at 12:14 AM on March 23, 2005

Well it's been at least two days and the Minnesota shooting story is still in the Top Stories slot on news.google.com (along with the Schiavo case). Any ignorance on the matter seems to be purely your own and not the media's.

Looks like the lib'rul media has put Schiavo back on the front burner, her tearful mother in full spread.
posted by AlexReynolds at 1:07 AM on March 23, 2005

I was very confused as to whether this guy was an American Indian* or a Nazi. The reality that he was both is hard to reconcile... it's like an Amish videogame, it just doesn't make sense.

I definitely think that people have been desensitized after Columbine. I read about this and just thought "Oh, again?"

* the term I am told they prefer. Information comes from a good friend who worked on a reservation in South Dakota for years.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:25 AM on March 23, 2005

Looks like the lib'rul media has put Schiavo back on the front burner, her tearful mother in full spread.

Yep looks like it.
posted by PenDevil at 4:49 AM on March 23, 2005

I don't know if "world weary" is the correct term, gesamtkunstwerk. I think "numb," might be more accurate.

I have issues around these things, and in the light of day I can see that I was being confrontational. And no, I don't think anyone is being a cold bastard. I guess I think in terms of kids affected by school violence, not the people who commit it.

Grapefruitmoom, I've noticed the same thing about the term Native American, but it seems to vary from place to place. The aboriginal people I grew up around in Wisconsin identified as Indians. Here in Canada the term Indian just doesn't exist anymore: you say the name of a tribe or refer to first nations. The word Eskimo is just foreign.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 6:58 AM on March 23, 2005

by the way, the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party was posted about on memepool in 2003.
posted by knapah at 8:18 AM on March 23, 2005

I've received an email requesting donations for Red Lake families that need to get from the Cities to Red Lake. It's totally legit. If anyone's interested in donating, please email me and I'll forward the info.

If I've posted this in the wrong place, I apologize.
posted by Juicylicious at 9:03 AM on March 23, 2005

AlexReynolds: "Looks like the lib'rul media has put Schiavo back on the front burner, her tearful mother in full spread."

Mr. Reynolds, here's the memo, since I guess you didn't get it. Read it? Good. These are our operating procedures from here on out.
posted by koeselitz at 9:57 AM on March 23, 2005

Koeselitz, I don't think it is inappropriate to reclaim a term from right-wingers who've abused it. Sorry, but "lib'rul" will remain in my Semi-Official Vocabulary of Irony for the time being.
posted by AlexReynolds at 12:03 PM on March 23, 2005

The thing, Alex, is you're not exactly "reclaiming the term." You're making fun of people for having a drawl.

And I'll have you know that most of the intelligent people I've met in my lifetime spoke with a drawl. What's more, a lot of them were liberal. So you're getting nowhere with this.

I understand that it's fun to imagine anyone who disagrees with you as a huge, hairy neandrethal from Texas who "cain't tawk rite." But it's offensive, and it's gotten very, very old. I agree that "liberal" isn't a dirty word. But incessantly typing "lib'rul," like incessantly typing "why do you hate america," is only turning you into what you hate.
posted by koeselitz at 1:09 PM on March 23, 2005

Huh...goes to show you what being outside the US media sphere does: the only people I've ever heard say "lib'rul" are the liberals on Mefi. I thought it was just a way to make fun of right-wingers, I didn't realize it was reclaiming anything.
posted by bugbread at 9:51 PM on March 23, 2005

Back on topic:

The Smoking Gun has a flash short that Weise made. [NSFW]
posted by deborah at 8:58 AM on March 24, 2005