RIP
January 6, 2006 6:02 PM Subscribe
Hugh Thompson Jr., dies at 62.
My Lai. (NSFW photo) "'We had conspired with the government of South Vietnam to literally destroy the hopes, aspirations and emotional stability of thirteen thousand human beings....This was not war it is genocide....'."
"Thompson landed his chopper between the troops and the shelter, then jumped out and confronted the lieutenant in charge of the chase...Furious, Thompson announced he was taking the civilians out. He went back to Colburn and Andreotta and told them if the Americans fired, to shoot them."
My Lai. (NSFW photo) "'We had conspired with the government of South Vietnam to literally destroy the hopes, aspirations and emotional stability of thirteen thousand human beings....This was not war it is genocide....'."
"Thompson landed his chopper between the troops and the shelter, then jumped out and confronted the lieutenant in charge of the chase...Furious, Thompson announced he was taking the civilians out. He went back to Colburn and Andreotta and told them if the Americans fired, to shoot them."
Hugh Thompson put his life on the line to represent the best in American values. If only wish his example were more often followed in America.
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posted by orthogonality at 6:12 PM on January 6, 2006
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posted by orthogonality at 6:12 PM on January 6, 2006
More links:
"The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed."
The My Lai Courts-Martial
My Lai gets thrown around quite a bit. Too often Thompson, Ridenhour and others get lost from the story.
The Soldier's Medal, which was awarded to Thompson, is on par with the Distinguished Service Cross - just under the Medal of Honor. He deserved it for this exchange alone:
" Thompson: Let's get these people out of this bunker and get 'em out of here.
Brooks: We'll get 'em out with hand grenades.
Thompson: I can do better than that. Keep your people in place. My guns are on you. "
Rest in peace brother.
posted by Smedleyman at 6:15 PM on January 6, 2006
"The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed."
The My Lai Courts-Martial
My Lai gets thrown around quite a bit. Too often Thompson, Ridenhour and others get lost from the story.
The Soldier's Medal, which was awarded to Thompson, is on par with the Distinguished Service Cross - just under the Medal of Honor. He deserved it for this exchange alone:
" Thompson: Let's get these people out of this bunker and get 'em out of here.
Brooks: We'll get 'em out with hand grenades.
Thompson: I can do better than that. Keep your people in place. My guns are on you. "
Rest in peace brother.
posted by Smedleyman at 6:15 PM on January 6, 2006
What an account. What a desperate situation innocent people found themselves in, and how somebody tried to help them. All the while, this was entirely preventable.
posted by FieldingGoodney at 6:16 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by FieldingGoodney at 6:16 PM on January 6, 2006
First I've ever heard of this man. True courage. Just, wow...
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posted by C.Batt at 6:17 PM on January 6, 2006
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posted by C.Batt at 6:17 PM on January 6, 2006
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I hope there is a heaven, because this guy deserves one.
posted by maryh at 6:18 PM on January 6, 2006
I hope there is a heaven, because this guy deserves one.
posted by maryh at 6:18 PM on January 6, 2006
Lawrence Colburn's story. (He was the helicopter gunner)
As American soldiers fight a war in Central Asia where boundaries and enemies can be similarly unclear, Colburn, now 52, offers this advice to young soldiers: "Beware of peer pressure that moves you in the wrong direction."
posted by Smedleyman at 6:35 PM on January 6, 2006
As American soldiers fight a war in Central Asia where boundaries and enemies can be similarly unclear, Colburn, now 52, offers this advice to young soldiers: "Beware of peer pressure that moves you in the wrong direction."
posted by Smedleyman at 6:35 PM on January 6, 2006
From my inadvertent double post above--
The names of helicopter pilot Thompson, his crewmates Larry Colburn and Glenn Andreotta, along with Ron Ridenour, who was responsible for breaking the sotry of the massacre, are alone covered in glory rather than infamy for their parts in My Lai. Here is Ridenour's orignal letter that led to the investigation of the massacre at My Lai.
David Egan, a Clemson University professor who had served in a French village where Nazis killed scores of innocents in World War II, campaigned for Thompson to receive the Soldier's Medal from the Army. Thompson accepted the medal on the condition it be awarded as well to his crewmates Colburn and the late Andreotta, who died in combat a month after the massacre, in a public ceremony.
The US military has now incorporated accounts of Thompson's integrity, grace under fire and courageous deeds into cadet ethics courses at the US Air Force Academy.
posted by y2karl at 6:38 PM on January 6, 2006
The names of helicopter pilot Thompson, his crewmates Larry Colburn and Glenn Andreotta, along with Ron Ridenour, who was responsible for breaking the sotry of the massacre, are alone covered in glory rather than infamy for their parts in My Lai. Here is Ridenour's orignal letter that led to the investigation of the massacre at My Lai.
David Egan, a Clemson University professor who had served in a French village where Nazis killed scores of innocents in World War II, campaigned for Thompson to receive the Soldier's Medal from the Army. Thompson accepted the medal on the condition it be awarded as well to his crewmates Colburn and the late Andreotta, who died in combat a month after the massacre, in a public ceremony.
The US military has now incorporated accounts of Thompson's integrity, grace under fire and courageous deeds into cadet ethics courses at the US Air Force Academy.
posted by y2karl at 6:38 PM on January 6, 2006
That's when Mr. Thompson, we all, started trying to figure out what happened. The last thing we wanted to admit to ourselves was that it was our own men.The account of Larry Colburn, the now sole survivor of Thompson's crew, from The Choices Made.
People had been herded up systematically, made to get down in this irrigation ditch, and they were executed. We started marking some of the bodies that were still alive with green smoke, (dropping smoke grenades from the helicopter) so the medics on the ground could help them. We marked this one woman who had chest wounds. She was moving one arm, feebly, asking for help, so we marked her. Mr. Thompson backed up 20, 30 feet and hovered there 10 feet off the ground because he saw a soldier coming over to her. That was (Capt. Ernest) Medina. We pointed down to her. He kicked her, stepped back and blew her away right in front of us. That's when we simultaneously said something like: "You son of a bitch." Then we knew. The mystery was solved. It was people from Charlie Company.
Mr. Thompson was determined to stop this. He landed and said to one of the soldiers standing by the ditch, "What can we do to help these people out?"
The fellow said, "We can help them out of their misery."
Hugh said, "C'mon man."
As we lifted off, we heard automatic weapons fire. Glenn said, "My God, he's firing into the ditch again." Wounded people were climbing out of the ditch and they were shooting them. We checked other people we'd marked and sure enough, they'd been finished off. It felt like by marking these bodies, we were indirectly killing them ourselves.
They raped the women with M16s, bayonets. They sodomized children. They decapitated people. They killed a monk, threw him down a well with hand grenades. It was so obscene. They did everything but eat the people.
I didn't join the Army to do that sort of thing, even if they were sympathizers.
And God bless the men on the ground. We would have given our lives on any day, any moment for them. Glenn did three weeks later; he was shot in the head on a mission.
Of Andreotta, Thoompson said, If there was ahero that day, it was Glenn.
posted by y2karl at 6:44 PM on January 6, 2006
I think the US Army could use a few more Thompsons in its ranks. Especially at, say, Abu Ghraib.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:00 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 7:00 PM on January 6, 2006
These people were tortured by this. They, they were kids, eighteen, nineteen years old. Most of them had never been away from home before they went to the service, and they end up in Vietnam, and in a moment, in a moment, following orders in a context in which they'd been trained, prepared to follow orders, they do what they're told and they shouldn't have, and they look back a day later and realize that they probably made the biggest mistake of their life. There are only a few people who were in those circumstances, who had the presence of mind and the strength of their own character that would see them through that circumstance. Most people didn't, and for most of them, even people that I, I personally just were stunned to discover that they had made the wrong choice, they did, and they had to live with it. They have to live with it, and so do I. So do we all.from the Remember My Lai Frontline Program transcripts. Haberle took the now famous pictures of the My Lai massacre as it was happening.
Ron Haberle, Former U.S. Army Photographer
posted by y2karl at 7:03 PM on January 6, 2006
Hugh Thompson is one of my all-time heroes. It's a damn shame more people don't know about him.
posted by Anonymous at 7:17 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by Anonymous at 7:17 PM on January 6, 2006
The Massacre at Mylai
from LIFE Vol. 67 No. 23; December 5, 1969
posted by y2karl at 7:20 PM on January 6, 2006
from LIFE Vol. 67 No. 23; December 5, 1969
posted by y2karl at 7:20 PM on January 6, 2006
The US military has now incorporated accounts of Thompson's integrity, grace under fire and courageous deeds into cadet ethics courses at the US Air Force Academy.
I hope the cadets are taking it to heart. Because if something like this happened today, everyone from the president on down to Limbaugh, Coulter et. al. would line up to denounce Thompson's actions.
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posted by PlusDistance at 7:25 PM on January 6, 2006
I hope the cadets are taking it to heart. Because if something like this happened today, everyone from the president on down to Limbaugh, Coulter et. al. would line up to denounce Thompson's actions.
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posted by PlusDistance at 7:25 PM on January 6, 2006
I think about this a lot- what it takes to make a man or woman do something so heinous as murdering a child, raping a woman, something that they would abhor should they be asked to do it at home, not at war. How men's minds get to the place where they can coldly execute a monk, a child, because they are part of the "enemy." My Dad was in Vietnam (retired after 30 years in the Army), but he won't talk about it. I brought it up [him being in Nam, not executing women or children or anything] for maybe the second time in my adult life last month after we saw Jarhead together, but he just changed the subject. Hell, I wonder all the time how they just get to the point where they can shoot at ANYONE else, soldiers of the opposing force.
Is there something inherent in most people that just lies dormant waiting for an opportunity, some sort of coldness or apathy towards fellow men, or are that many people just capable of so much suggestion and rigorous discipline and training that they will cease to question orders?
In any case, rest in peace, Hugh. You were a hero.
posted by Meredith at 7:25 PM on January 6, 2006
Is there something inherent in most people that just lies dormant waiting for an opportunity, some sort of coldness or apathy towards fellow men, or are that many people just capable of so much suggestion and rigorous discipline and training that they will cease to question orders?
In any case, rest in peace, Hugh. You were a hero.
posted by Meredith at 7:25 PM on January 6, 2006
Is there something inherent in most people that just lies dormant waiting for an opportunity, some sort of coldness or apathy towards fellow men, or are that many people just capable of so much suggestion and rigorous discipline and training that they will cease to question orders?
I've wondered that myself. I don't know if it lies waiting so much that there is a switch that either turns it on or turns off the compassion that keeps one man from doing these kinds of horrific things to another man.
posted by Anonymous at 7:32 PM on January 6, 2006
You can observe similar behavior whether the humans are trained soldiers or not. Some kind of killing hive-mind. Take the Nyarubuye massacre--a mass of mainly civilians who brutally murdered their fellow countrymen.
It's like that phenomenon where someone in distress is less likely to get help from a crowd than if only one or two people are around. The greater the number of people doing something, the more likely it is an individual will join them. It can open up dark places in the human mind that wouldn't exist otherwise.
That's probably why it took someone outside of the "killing mind" or whatever to stop the massacre. Thompson, Colburn, and Andreotta were outside the groupthink and were therefore able to bring clarity to the situation.
But it's worth mentioning that war crimes don't arise spontaneously. I mean, it requires some nudging to prime a crowd for horrific acts--like the stress of participating in a dirty war and losing fellow soldiers (C-Company had seen heavy action in the weeks leading up to My Lai) or a constant wave of propaganda and exhortations to kill a particular group (like the RTLM broadcasts).
posted by Anonymous at 7:45 PM on January 6, 2006
It's like that phenomenon where someone in distress is less likely to get help from a crowd than if only one or two people are around. The greater the number of people doing something, the more likely it is an individual will join them. It can open up dark places in the human mind that wouldn't exist otherwise.
That's probably why it took someone outside of the "killing mind" or whatever to stop the massacre. Thompson, Colburn, and Andreotta were outside the groupthink and were therefore able to bring clarity to the situation.
But it's worth mentioning that war crimes don't arise spontaneously. I mean, it requires some nudging to prime a crowd for horrific acts--like the stress of participating in a dirty war and losing fellow soldiers (C-Company had seen heavy action in the weeks leading up to My Lai) or a constant wave of propaganda and exhortations to kill a particular group (like the RTLM broadcasts).
posted by Anonymous at 7:45 PM on January 6, 2006
True courage. I recently saw "Good Night and Good Luck" the movie about how Robert R. Murrow took on Joe McCarthy at great personal risk. Another true hero. The Russian general who refused to launch the nukes when his computers told him that the Americans had attacked, hero. We all would like to think that in such a situation we would be so courageous. The paucity of such incidents indicates otherwise and shows how impressive their courage was. It was, of course, important to save us all from ourselves. God bless you Mr. Thompson.
posted by caddis at 7:46 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by caddis at 7:46 PM on January 6, 2006
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posted by Mr Bluesky at 8:16 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by Mr Bluesky at 8:16 PM on January 6, 2006
I did not know of these men and their courage until today.
Thank you, smedleyman, and everyone else, for the links and the thoughts.
We should not forget them.
posted by docgonzo at 8:23 PM on January 6, 2006
Thank you, smedleyman, and everyone else, for the links and the thoughts.
We should not forget them.
posted by docgonzo at 8:23 PM on January 6, 2006
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posted by ryanshepard at 8:24 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by ryanshepard at 8:24 PM on January 6, 2006
I too was ignorant of the truly awesome integrity and bravery of these men until today. It's a shame Hugh Thompson was not more publicly honored in life. May he truly rest in peace.
posted by jann at 8:41 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by jann at 8:41 PM on January 6, 2006
I met Thompson, and heard him speak. He was a realtor here in Lafayette, and spoke at the Petroleum Club for lunch a year before he won the medal.
He stammered out the story in earnest, near tears, while the audience sat, embarrassed and respectfull, then applauded. I got the feeling most of them didn't know the story very well. I knew it... I did a paper on My Lai for ROTC, and discovered Thompson was living here. He was a nice guy.
I came face to face with Calley, also, outside Fort Benning. He runs a jewelry store in Columbus, Georgia. He is a pudgy man with thinning hair, entirely unremarkable. I was wearing my uniform, and he did get a watchful look in his eye. I expect he gets visitors like me from time to time.
A couple of things: Calley's unit (the Americal Division) was in trouble from the very start. They were sent to a 'pacified' area at first, and apparently committed some atrocities there. Calley was by far the worst individual, though.
Also, on the same day as the My Lai massacre, but across a river, another unit committed an atrocity at least as large. They weren't prosecuted, though, because they clammed up.
Calley's unit did well in training, had high morale at first, but were worn down by constant encounters with booby traps left by an unseen enemy. Sound familiar?
posted by atchafalaya at 8:42 PM on January 6, 2006
He stammered out the story in earnest, near tears, while the audience sat, embarrassed and respectfull, then applauded. I got the feeling most of them didn't know the story very well. I knew it... I did a paper on My Lai for ROTC, and discovered Thompson was living here. He was a nice guy.
I came face to face with Calley, also, outside Fort Benning. He runs a jewelry store in Columbus, Georgia. He is a pudgy man with thinning hair, entirely unremarkable. I was wearing my uniform, and he did get a watchful look in his eye. I expect he gets visitors like me from time to time.
A couple of things: Calley's unit (the Americal Division) was in trouble from the very start. They were sent to a 'pacified' area at first, and apparently committed some atrocities there. Calley was by far the worst individual, though.
Also, on the same day as the My Lai massacre, but across a river, another unit committed an atrocity at least as large. They weren't prosecuted, though, because they clammed up.
Calley's unit did well in training, had high morale at first, but were worn down by constant encounters with booby traps left by an unseen enemy. Sound familiar?
posted by atchafalaya at 8:42 PM on January 6, 2006
I didn't know the story either, and am truly saddened that it took this hero's death for me to learn it.
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posted by pruner at 8:45 PM on January 6, 2006
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posted by pruner at 8:45 PM on January 6, 2006
One wonders what Colin "Invertebrate" Powell, was thinking about when he heard about Thompson's passing?
"Me, lie? Well, misspoke perhaps ..."
posted by rob511 at 8:48 PM on January 6, 2006
"Me, lie? Well, misspoke perhaps ..."
posted by rob511 at 8:48 PM on January 6, 2006
I've wondered that myself. I don't know if it lies waiting so much that there is a switch that either turns it on or turns off the compassion that keeps one man from doing these kinds of horrific things to another man.
One thing to keep in mind is that the perpetrators didn't just step off the plane and then go massacre this hamlet.
They'd been operating in this area, which was heavily infiltrated & to some extent controlled by VC, for months. Just like in Iraq, they were taking a steady drumbeat of casualties from IEDs and snipers, and wrt the IEDs, they thought (right or not) that the civilians knew where they were.
And for reasons I won't go into here a lot of the SVN people in this area were VC, or had VC sympathies... well, suffice it to say that they felt more attachment to HCM and the revolutionary nationalist VC than the Catholic carpetbaggers and the absentee landlords in Saigon.
IMV /any US soldier could engage in this obscene war crime in this context, given the 6-8 months of slogging through tropical jungles and paddies, fighting a shadowy enemy that was hiding in the hamlets and countryside, and the piss-poor morale the unit in question (the "Americal" Div) had fallen into due to poor leadership.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 8:55 PM on January 6, 2006
One thing to keep in mind is that the perpetrators didn't just step off the plane and then go massacre this hamlet.
They'd been operating in this area, which was heavily infiltrated & to some extent controlled by VC, for months. Just like in Iraq, they were taking a steady drumbeat of casualties from IEDs and snipers, and wrt the IEDs, they thought (right or not) that the civilians knew where they were.
And for reasons I won't go into here a lot of the SVN people in this area were VC, or had VC sympathies... well, suffice it to say that they felt more attachment to HCM and the revolutionary nationalist VC than the Catholic carpetbaggers and the absentee landlords in Saigon.
IMV /any US soldier could engage in this obscene war crime in this context, given the 6-8 months of slogging through tropical jungles and paddies, fighting a shadowy enemy that was hiding in the hamlets and countryside, and the piss-poor morale the unit in question (the "Americal" Div) had fallen into due to poor leadership.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 8:55 PM on January 6, 2006
Oh, well I guess it's justified through frustration, right Heywood?
posted by Balisong at 9:01 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by Balisong at 9:01 PM on January 6, 2006
Right. That's possibly the worst part about these things, that anyone could do it in that position. Is it possible to detect when that last shred of humanity is being stripped away, and is there a way to nail it back on before it's too late?
atchafalaya, thank you for your story. How did you not punch Calley in the face? Though I know that war crimes are committed by humans as ordinary as you or I, when I first learned of My Lai I was so enraged at Calley's light sentence I tracked down his address and considered sending him anniversary letters. Your self-control is admirable.
posted by Anonymous at 9:02 PM on January 6, 2006
atchafalaya, thank you for your story. How did you not punch Calley in the face? Though I know that war crimes are committed by humans as ordinary as you or I, when I first learned of My Lai I was so enraged at Calley's light sentence I tracked down his address and considered sending him anniversary letters. Your self-control is admirable.
posted by Anonymous at 9:02 PM on January 6, 2006
Sorry for the double-post.
Balisong, outlining the roots of the situation doesn't equate to justifying the actions. It doesn't do any good to just punish the bastards and go on our merry way--only by understanding the conditions that lead to the killing mindset can we prevent future My Lais.
posted by Anonymous at 9:05 PM on January 6, 2006
Balisong, outlining the roots of the situation doesn't equate to justifying the actions. It doesn't do any good to just punish the bastards and go on our merry way--only by understanding the conditions that lead to the killing mindset can we prevent future My Lais.
posted by Anonymous at 9:05 PM on January 6, 2006
Just a lot of references to Colin Powell and the My Lai cover up. Let the chips fall where they may. . . Colin, how could you?
posted by mk1gti at 9:35 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by mk1gti at 9:35 PM on January 6, 2006
I guess it's justified through frustration, right Heywood?
No. The true measure of a man is how he maintains his morality under stress. Many people in the Americal Division, Colin Powell on down, failed that test. Thompson did not.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 9:36 PM on January 6, 2006
No. The true measure of a man is how he maintains his morality under stress. Many people in the Americal Division, Colin Powell on down, failed that test. Thompson did not.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 9:36 PM on January 6, 2006
Sorry, I sometimes get all bristly when I get outraged, and poke at everything around me.
I didn't mean it towards you. I know there are plenty of atrocities to go around, to where we can all have our favorites.
I can just picture a very similar situation happening in my own neighborhood after the civil war starts, and my insurgency begins to frustrate the military Dominion Forces.
But it's something that I've trained all my life for, and I should just callous myself to the fact that many of those around me will be killed frivilously. I guess I'll just let it harden my resolve to the cause.
posted by Balisong at 9:45 PM on January 6, 2006
I didn't mean it towards you. I know there are plenty of atrocities to go around, to where we can all have our favorites.
I can just picture a very similar situation happening in my own neighborhood after the civil war starts, and my insurgency begins to frustrate the military Dominion Forces.
But it's something that I've trained all my life for, and I should just callous myself to the fact that many of those around me will be killed frivilously. I guess I'll just let it harden my resolve to the cause.
posted by Balisong at 9:45 PM on January 6, 2006
I hope the cadets are taking it to heart. Because if something like this happened today, everyone from the president on down to Limbaugh, Coulter et. al. would line up to denounce Thompson's actions.
See Joseph Darby, although he was just a whistleblower -- he didn't have to pull a gun on another soldier.
Also, compare Bob Kerrey. The implication is that similar incidents were rife, but largely failed to attract attention.
posted by dhartung at 10:06 PM on January 6, 2006
See Joseph Darby, although he was just a whistleblower -- he didn't have to pull a gun on another soldier.
Also, compare Bob Kerrey. The implication is that similar incidents were rife, but largely failed to attract attention.
posted by dhartung at 10:06 PM on January 6, 2006
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And I've said it before, Colin Powell was never anything but someone who knew what to say to get to where he wanted and never bothered to count the bodies of the dead along the way.
posted by allen.spaulding at 10:10 PM on January 6, 2006
And I've said it before, Colin Powell was never anything but someone who knew what to say to get to where he wanted and never bothered to count the bodies of the dead along the way.
posted by allen.spaulding at 10:10 PM on January 6, 2006
Thanks for the excellent post, Smedleyman. Even though I remember My Lai, I did not know the story of this man, or the others with him - how courageous they were! What an inspirational story amid all the horror.
Joseph Darby, the whistleblower of Abu Ghraib, is cut from the same cloth. While he's had accolades from some quarters, he and his family were forced into hiding by the rancor from other quarters.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:18 PM on January 6, 2006
Joseph Darby, the whistleblower of Abu Ghraib, is cut from the same cloth. While he's had accolades from some quarters, he and his family were forced into hiding by the rancor from other quarters.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:18 PM on January 6, 2006
Just like in Iraq, they were taking a steady drumbeat of casualties from IEDs and snipers, and wrt the IEDs, they thought (right or not) that the civilians knew where they were.
If Vietnam and Iraq are comparable wars, then for fucks' sake, why isn't there a loud uproar about it across the nation? Where are the marches? The protests? The creation of such a public commotion that the government must finally bend to the will of the people, and do the right thing?
What has happened to America? Are you a beaten people?
posted by five fresh fish at 11:06 PM on January 6, 2006
If Vietnam and Iraq are comparable wars, then for fucks' sake, why isn't there a loud uproar about it across the nation? Where are the marches? The protests? The creation of such a public commotion that the government must finally bend to the will of the people, and do the right thing?
What has happened to America? Are you a beaten people?
posted by five fresh fish at 11:06 PM on January 6, 2006
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posted by foozleface at 11:32 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by foozleface at 11:32 PM on January 6, 2006
If Vietnam and Iraq are comparable wars, then for fucks' sake, why isn't there a loud uproar about it across the nation? Where are the marches? The protests? The creation of such a public commotion that the government must finally bend to the will of the people, and do the right thing?
For someone who was alive at the time of Vietnam, one of the saddest parts of this is to see those we once quaintly referred to as members of the free press become lickspittles, pawns and enablers of folly.
posted by y2karl at 12:07 AM on January 7, 2006
For someone who was alive at the time of Vietnam, one of the saddest parts of this is to see those we once quaintly referred to as members of the free press become lickspittles, pawns and enablers of folly.
posted by y2karl at 12:07 AM on January 7, 2006
If Vietnam and Iraq are comparable wars, then for fucks' sake, why isn't there a loud uproar about it across the nation?
They're not that comparable. Basically in Vietnam just one division, ~20,000 troops, on a good day, was taking that 1-2 KIA/day that currently 130,000 troops are taking now in Iraq.
The battle that turned America against the war in Vietnam was "Hamburger Hill", where in 10 days one division lost 46 KIA and several hundred wounded.
The only thing close to that with the insurgency was the post-election Fallujah offensive (funny how they timed that, huh?).
Basically Vietnam was a Fallujah or three every month.
fwiw, I think every 1,000 KIA peels off ~20% of popular support for the Iraq intervention, eg.
0 KIA: ~70% support
1000 KIA: 55% support
2000 KIA: 45%
3000 KIA: will see 35% support
Additionally, in Vietnam we were drafting the cannon fodder. In 1969, 80% of the 11B-10 (basic combat rifleman) KIA had been drafted. Overall, in 1969 the Army saw 4200 draftee KIA vs. 3035 non-draftee KIA. The non-draftee includes ~1000 helicopter pilots and officers, so in the enlisted ranks the draftees took ~66% of the casualties.
This is how foreign adventures get unpopular, fast.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 12:10 AM on January 7, 2006
They're not that comparable. Basically in Vietnam just one division, ~20,000 troops, on a good day, was taking that 1-2 KIA/day that currently 130,000 troops are taking now in Iraq.
The battle that turned America against the war in Vietnam was "Hamburger Hill", where in 10 days one division lost 46 KIA and several hundred wounded.
The only thing close to that with the insurgency was the post-election Fallujah offensive (funny how they timed that, huh?).
Basically Vietnam was a Fallujah or three every month.
fwiw, I think every 1,000 KIA peels off ~20% of popular support for the Iraq intervention, eg.
0 KIA: ~70% support
1000 KIA: 55% support
2000 KIA: 45%
3000 KIA: will see 35% support
Additionally, in Vietnam we were drafting the cannon fodder. In 1969, 80% of the 11B-10 (basic combat rifleman) KIA had been drafted. Overall, in 1969 the Army saw 4200 draftee KIA vs. 3035 non-draftee KIA. The non-draftee includes ~1000 helicopter pilots and officers, so in the enlisted ranks the draftees took ~66% of the casualties.
This is how foreign adventures get unpopular, fast.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 12:10 AM on January 7, 2006
The implication is that similar incidents were rife, but largely failed to attract attention.
See also The Winter Soldier Investigation.
There was the 1972 film Winter Soldier--but that was rarely screened in America. It had a far wider release in Europe. It has been timely re-released and reviewed this time around. It may well be given another rare screening this time around in a theater near you. As to who will go see it, well...
posted by y2karl at 12:31 AM on January 7, 2006
See also The Winter Soldier Investigation.
There was the 1972 film Winter Soldier--but that was rarely screened in America. It had a far wider release in Europe. It has been timely re-released and reviewed this time around. It may well be given another rare screening this time around in a theater near you. As to who will go see it, well...
posted by y2karl at 12:31 AM on January 7, 2006
This is how foreign adventures get unpopular, fast.
It didn't help that you had a real press entrenched with the soldiers showing real combat footage. These days the only reality you'll ever see is on ogrish.com.
Good luck finding a big enough plot of land to fit the balls of a man like Hugh Thompson.
.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:54 AM on January 7, 2006
It didn't help that you had a real press entrenched with the soldiers showing real combat footage. These days the only reality you'll ever see is on ogrish.com.
Good luck finding a big enough plot of land to fit the balls of a man like Hugh Thompson.
.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:54 AM on January 7, 2006
Good luck finding a big enough plot of land to fit the balls of a man like Hugh Thompson.
Not to mention how one whole half of the human race considers the concept, we are more than balls. To have one's brains in one's balls is a pejorative. And no one has ever spoken speaks of one's hearts being in one's balls.
Great evil can be and is done with with balls, far far more often is done great good. Our souls, by most cultures' reckoning, are not found in the organs of procreation.
It was not necessarily from macho, nor what, in the words of Muddy Water's makes a tomcat fight all night that Thompson, Colburn and Andreotta saved the people they did. Kindness, compassion and the recognition of a common humanity--all these are not derived from the contents of scrotums.
And what of Ron Ridenour, without whom, neither the massacre at My Lai the story of Hugh Thompson would ever be known ? What did balls have to do with why he had to do the right thing. let alone how he knew what the right thing to do was ? From thier own words, linked and wuoted herein, I suspect that none of these men has never spoken of nor would ever speak of doing what they did as being a matter of having balls. Caring about what is right, knowing what is right and doing what is right can not be reduced to a matter of testosterone nor testicles.
posted by y2karl at 2:33 AM on January 7, 2006
Not to mention how one whole half of the human race considers the concept, we are more than balls. To have one's brains in one's balls is a pejorative. And no one has ever spoken speaks of one's hearts being in one's balls.
Great evil can be and is done with with balls, far far more often is done great good. Our souls, by most cultures' reckoning, are not found in the organs of procreation.
It was not necessarily from macho, nor what, in the words of Muddy Water's makes a tomcat fight all night that Thompson, Colburn and Andreotta saved the people they did. Kindness, compassion and the recognition of a common humanity--all these are not derived from the contents of scrotums.
And what of Ron Ridenour, without whom, neither the massacre at My Lai the story of Hugh Thompson would ever be known ? What did balls have to do with why he had to do the right thing. let alone how he knew what the right thing to do was ? From thier own words, linked and wuoted herein, I suspect that none of these men has never spoken of nor would ever speak of doing what they did as being a matter of having balls. Caring about what is right, knowing what is right and doing what is right can not be reduced to a matter of testosterone nor testicles.
posted by y2karl at 2:33 AM on January 7, 2006
Another way to put it is this:
It took a lot of balls for Mohammed Atta to fly an airplane into the World Trade Center.
From the common understanding of what having balls is, that is a true statement. What Atta did was not an act of cowardice.
To speak of Thompson's act in terms of mere balls diminishes his deed.
posted by y2karl at 2:47 AM on January 7, 2006
It took a lot of balls for Mohammed Atta to fly an airplane into the World Trade Center.
From the common understanding of what having balls is, that is a true statement. What Atta did was not an act of cowardice.
To speak of Thompson's act in terms of mere balls diminishes his deed.
posted by y2karl at 2:47 AM on January 7, 2006
Is there something inherent in most people that just lies dormant waiting for an opportunity, some sort of coldness or apathy towards fellow men, or are that many people just capable of so much suggestion and rigorous discipline and training that they will cease to question orders?
Perhaps, but you should also realize that most people will not kill others without some sort of brainwashing. Military indoctrination is now almost 100% effective at creating shooters but it wasn't always. I remember seeing numbers as low as 50% of soldiers firing during WWII firefights. If I recall correctly the Vietnam numbers were in the 70% area.
Modern day soldiers are trapped in a horrible dilemma where they are supposed to do the inhumane humanely. I am always amazed at at the outrage when soldiers display bizarre behavious (british royal marine naked gladiator games or cdn airborne hazing) when as a society we ask them to train to do the worst crime possible. We fuck them up and then act shocked when they are fucked up.
Men like Thompson are heroes for resisting indoctrination. Why are there no heroes like that now? Indoctrination has gotten much better.
posted by srboisvert at 4:26 AM on January 7, 2006
Perhaps, but you should also realize that most people will not kill others without some sort of brainwashing. Military indoctrination is now almost 100% effective at creating shooters but it wasn't always. I remember seeing numbers as low as 50% of soldiers firing during WWII firefights. If I recall correctly the Vietnam numbers were in the 70% area.
Modern day soldiers are trapped in a horrible dilemma where they are supposed to do the inhumane humanely. I am always amazed at at the outrage when soldiers display bizarre behavious (british royal marine naked gladiator games or cdn airborne hazing) when as a society we ask them to train to do the worst crime possible. We fuck them up and then act shocked when they are fucked up.
Men like Thompson are heroes for resisting indoctrination. Why are there no heroes like that now? Indoctrination has gotten much better.
posted by srboisvert at 4:26 AM on January 7, 2006
I remember seeing numbers as low as 50% of soldiers firing during WWII firefights. If I recall correctly the Vietnam numbers were in the 70% area.
Can you source that? Most soldiers deployed to a combat zone won't fire their weapon because a hefty majority of them are in support positions for the relatively few who actually do the shooting. But I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that WWII grunts didn't shoot because of some moral dilemma, which is how I'm reading your comment (and could be wrong. Please correct me if that is the case.)
posted by Cyrano at 9:08 AM on January 7, 2006
Can you source that? Most soldiers deployed to a combat zone won't fire their weapon because a hefty majority of them are in support positions for the relatively few who actually do the shooting. But I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that WWII grunts didn't shoot because of some moral dilemma, which is how I'm reading your comment (and could be wrong. Please correct me if that is the case.)
posted by Cyrano at 9:08 AM on January 7, 2006
. A brave man.
Those who were under Calley's command and refused to obey were also very brave.
posted by storybored at 9:15 AM on January 7, 2006
Those who were under Calley's command and refused to obey were also very brave.
posted by storybored at 9:15 AM on January 7, 2006
.
And what plusdistance said. What do you think Cheney would say about a guy like this if something comparable happened today?
posted by bardic at 9:25 AM on January 7, 2006
And what plusdistance said. What do you think Cheney would say about a guy like this if something comparable happened today?
posted by bardic at 9:25 AM on January 7, 2006
madamejujujive - an excellent article on Darby. Wow... the way we treat our heroes...
posted by moonbird at 9:34 AM on January 7, 2006
posted by moonbird at 9:34 AM on January 7, 2006
Kindness, compassion and the recognition of a common humanity--all these are not derived from the contents of scrotums.
Unfortunately, kindness and compassion will get you to throw your spare change into the Unicef tin passed 'round. Balls will get you to stand up to a military junta holding said starving people hostage.
Plenty of people have compassion, and plenty of people do nothing about it. How many of our soldiers have witnessed atrocities in Iraq and stood by thinking, "Gee, that's a shame..." Now, how many have actually stood up, pulled a gun on their fellow officers and said, "You're not going to do this any more."
It's not enough to have nice thoughts in your head if you can't manifest them somehow in action, and actions--particularly ones that put your neck on the line--come from the scrotum.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:47 AM on January 7, 2006
Unfortunately, kindness and compassion will get you to throw your spare change into the Unicef tin passed 'round. Balls will get you to stand up to a military junta holding said starving people hostage.
Plenty of people have compassion, and plenty of people do nothing about it. How many of our soldiers have witnessed atrocities in Iraq and stood by thinking, "Gee, that's a shame..." Now, how many have actually stood up, pulled a gun on their fellow officers and said, "You're not going to do this any more."
It's not enough to have nice thoughts in your head if you can't manifest them somehow in action, and actions--particularly ones that put your neck on the line--come from the scrotum.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:47 AM on January 7, 2006
...and actions--particularly ones that put your neck on the line--come from the scrotum.
As in Mohammed Atta's actions.
posted by y2karl at 10:34 AM on January 7, 2006
As in Mohammed Atta's actions.
posted by y2karl at 10:34 AM on January 7, 2006
.
And yes, the rate of soldiers who will fire on the enemy is something that has been studied for decades now, and as a result of altering soildiers' training, that rate has steadily increased.
See Gwynne Dyer's new edition of "War" for more, if interested.
posted by stinkycheese at 10:47 AM on January 7, 2006
And yes, the rate of soldiers who will fire on the enemy is something that has been studied for decades now, and as a result of altering soildiers' training, that rate has steadily increased.
See Gwynne Dyer's new edition of "War" for more, if interested.
posted by stinkycheese at 10:47 AM on January 7, 2006
actions--particularly ones that put your neck on the line--come from the scrotum.
courage comes from the heart :(
Actually this is a stupid argument because real courage comes from a person's character, essentially the moral judgements they stick to when the chips are down.
It's easy being honest in a world of locks:
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Private Pyle, if there is one thing in this world that I hate, it is an unlocked footlocker! You know that don't you?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, yes, sir.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: If it wasn't for dickheads like you, there wouldn't be any thievery in this world, would there?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, no, sir.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: GET DOWN!
Atta wasn't really ~that~ courageous, if he really believed the poppycock about the virgins and whatnot.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 11:48 AM on January 7, 2006
courage comes from the heart :(
Actually this is a stupid argument because real courage comes from a person's character, essentially the moral judgements they stick to when the chips are down.
It's easy being honest in a world of locks:
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Private Pyle, if there is one thing in this world that I hate, it is an unlocked footlocker! You know that don't you?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, yes, sir.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: If it wasn't for dickheads like you, there wouldn't be any thievery in this world, would there?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, no, sir.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: GET DOWN!
Atta wasn't really ~that~ courageous, if he really believed the poppycock about the virgins and whatnot.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 11:48 AM on January 7, 2006
Not to mention how one whole half of the human race considers the concept, we are more than balls. To have one's brains in one's balls is a pejorative. And no one has ever spoken speaks of one's hearts being in one's balls.
You are being intentionally blind to the poster's meaning. Is the thread not contentious enough for you?
posted by thirteen at 12:16 PM on January 7, 2006
You are being intentionally blind to the poster's meaning. Is the thread not contentious enough for you?
posted by thirteen at 12:16 PM on January 7, 2006
It's not enough to have nice thoughts in your head if you can't manifest them somehow in action, and actions--particularly ones that put your neck on the line--come from the scrotum. -posted by Civil_Disobedient
y2karl and I have had discussions about this on e-mail. Since apparently my explainations weren't good enough, I'll reiterated some of that for clarity here.
I agree with Heywood Mogroot that this is a stupid argument, because it's semantics. (Which I had explained in the e-mail).
Wherever one define's real courage and moral fortitude and acting on those comes from - terms may vary.
I'm part Sicillian and we use the term "balls" or coglioni or palle to mean someone with fortitude, courage, guts, as opposed to fracicone which means fake guts, big talk and the like.
I've never thought of those virtues as something separate from my intrinsic nature or my physical self. Whereas "heart" to me is something more nebulous.
I agree with Civil_Disobedient - there are differences between men who have compassion, but have no will to take action.
And to I agree with y2karl that will alone is not a sign of virtue. But that is not - and I think obviously not - how I meant it.
The way I grew up bravery for me is not divorced from humanity. Or kindness for that matter. The virtue is in the act and is one with the act. On the Sicillian flag is the Triskelion, one of the meanings of the symbol is that it will stand no matter where you throw it.
I was taught that those virtues one espouses must be backed by action or they are no virtues. Like the triskelion they do not change with the environment.
One stands for truth, justice, compassion and honor as a matter of course, since there is no reason to literally physically stand otherwise.
My good blade carves the casques of men,
My tough lance thrusteth sure,
My strength is as the strength of ten,
Because my heart is pure.
The courage comes from the virtue and is expressed through acts, not the other way around. You do what you can, but if you don't do it - you don't have it - is how I grew up. Culturally there is a very serious and in this case physically expressive way to say that: you have real balls.
That it's been altered by the greater English speaking culture in hackney'd Mafia films doesn't change how I mean it.
From my posts in this thread alone it should be clear that's what I meant by having testicles.
I don't agree with Bill Maher that the 9/11 hijackers had courage. Madness isn't courage. But I took him at his meaning and I agree with the sentiment that Joe SixPack isn't fanatic or dedicated or - in Maher's terms "courageous" enough to do what they did. I get it. I get what y2karl is saying.
But I think "amoral courage" is more than an oxymoron, that it's an impossibility. I disagree with Webster's definition of courage as a "quality of mind or spirit that enables a person to face difficulty, danger, pain, etc., without fear." It's the not giving in to fear. Furthermore - I don't see it as a separate quality.
Courage for me stems from morality and it's as much an intrinsic part of me as my skin is. It's just a matter of how much. Where I'm from if a person has a great deal than they're said to have big balls. Or simply balls.
Whatever terms we use to denote the qualities we prize most highly in humans, I think we can all agree they were shown by Thompson, Ridenour, Andreotta, and others.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:35 PM on January 7, 2006
y2karl and I have had discussions about this on e-mail. Since apparently my explainations weren't good enough, I'll reiterated some of that for clarity here.
I agree with Heywood Mogroot that this is a stupid argument, because it's semantics. (Which I had explained in the e-mail).
Wherever one define's real courage and moral fortitude and acting on those comes from - terms may vary.
I'm part Sicillian and we use the term "balls" or coglioni or palle to mean someone with fortitude, courage, guts, as opposed to fracicone which means fake guts, big talk and the like.
I've never thought of those virtues as something separate from my intrinsic nature or my physical self. Whereas "heart" to me is something more nebulous.
I agree with Civil_Disobedient - there are differences between men who have compassion, but have no will to take action.
And to I agree with y2karl that will alone is not a sign of virtue. But that is not - and I think obviously not - how I meant it.
The way I grew up bravery for me is not divorced from humanity. Or kindness for that matter. The virtue is in the act and is one with the act. On the Sicillian flag is the Triskelion, one of the meanings of the symbol is that it will stand no matter where you throw it.
I was taught that those virtues one espouses must be backed by action or they are no virtues. Like the triskelion they do not change with the environment.
One stands for truth, justice, compassion and honor as a matter of course, since there is no reason to literally physically stand otherwise.
My good blade carves the casques of men,
My tough lance thrusteth sure,
My strength is as the strength of ten,
Because my heart is pure.
The courage comes from the virtue and is expressed through acts, not the other way around. You do what you can, but if you don't do it - you don't have it - is how I grew up. Culturally there is a very serious and in this case physically expressive way to say that: you have real balls.
That it's been altered by the greater English speaking culture in hackney'd Mafia films doesn't change how I mean it.
From my posts in this thread alone it should be clear that's what I meant by having testicles.
I don't agree with Bill Maher that the 9/11 hijackers had courage. Madness isn't courage. But I took him at his meaning and I agree with the sentiment that Joe SixPack isn't fanatic or dedicated or - in Maher's terms "courageous" enough to do what they did. I get it. I get what y2karl is saying.
But I think "amoral courage" is more than an oxymoron, that it's an impossibility. I disagree with Webster's definition of courage as a "quality of mind or spirit that enables a person to face difficulty, danger, pain, etc., without fear." It's the not giving in to fear. Furthermore - I don't see it as a separate quality.
Courage for me stems from morality and it's as much an intrinsic part of me as my skin is. It's just a matter of how much. Where I'm from if a person has a great deal than they're said to have big balls. Or simply balls.
Whatever terms we use to denote the qualities we prize most highly in humans, I think we can all agree they were shown by Thompson, Ridenour, Andreotta, and others.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:35 PM on January 7, 2006
*pats self on back for not mentioning "political correctness"*
posted by Smedleyman at 12:37 PM on January 7, 2006
posted by Smedleyman at 12:37 PM on January 7, 2006
*takes points off for not being as succinct and clear as thirteen*
posted by Smedleyman at 12:40 PM on January 7, 2006
posted by Smedleyman at 12:40 PM on January 7, 2006
Whatever terms we use to denote the qualities we prize most highly in humans, I think we can all agree they were shown by Thompson, Ridenour, Andreotta, and others.
In this we do agree. Unfortunately, the words have an entirely different meaning to me and I reacted in heat at seeing them. And in reacting in heat, I was speaking of what matters most to me, as were you. So, I wasn't being the best listener, or reader in this case. No personal insult was meant in my emotional reaction. I get, from your description, what you mean when you use the expression testicles and balls. The unfortunate thing is the expression is loaded with so much extra baggage and can mean different things to different people.
Nonetheless, I have respect for what you describe what you meant when you used them and, although they are not the words I would choose, I heartily endorse the underlying concept as you describe it. So, perhaps we need something something akin to one of those universal translators on Startrek.
You made this post to honor the same person who I made a similar post to honor the same man. Whatever words or expressions we use to describe Thompson's acts and what they reveal about his character, we have common perception of the man, his bravery and morality. In that we are on the same page,
It is unfortunate that some words can come so semantically loaded. I am sorry I reacted so heatedly and missed what you meant. For that reason, I must apologize for the derail.
posted by y2karl at 9:23 PM on January 7, 2006
In this we do agree. Unfortunately, the words have an entirely different meaning to me and I reacted in heat at seeing them. And in reacting in heat, I was speaking of what matters most to me, as were you. So, I wasn't being the best listener, or reader in this case. No personal insult was meant in my emotional reaction. I get, from your description, what you mean when you use the expression testicles and balls. The unfortunate thing is the expression is loaded with so much extra baggage and can mean different things to different people.
Nonetheless, I have respect for what you describe what you meant when you used them and, although they are not the words I would choose, I heartily endorse the underlying concept as you describe it. So, perhaps we need something something akin to one of those universal translators on Startrek.
You made this post to honor the same person who I made a similar post to honor the same man. Whatever words or expressions we use to describe Thompson's acts and what they reveal about his character, we have common perception of the man, his bravery and morality. In that we are on the same page,
It is unfortunate that some words can come so semantically loaded. I am sorry I reacted so heatedly and missed what you meant. For that reason, I must apologize for the derail.
posted by y2karl at 9:23 PM on January 7, 2006
To your credit y2karl, that was a very thoughtful and reasonable apology and explaination and to my mind certainly proves that you are not a careless reader or commenter.
I showed a bit of anger myself and I would hope you contribute any harsh words on my part to the assumption of that fact. I would have been less upset with and less inclined to respond reasonably to someone who was not capable of that understanding or depth of feeling.
Whatever words you may have had to apologize your sentiments are obviously not superficial and I respect the integrity and importance you place on the issues we related here. I think we both hold these ideals close to our hearts and that passion can often overwhelm any reason. And I offer my apologies for any disrespect I’ve shown to them and to you.
posted by Smedleyman at 8:33 AM on January 9, 2006
I showed a bit of anger myself and I would hope you contribute any harsh words on my part to the assumption of that fact. I would have been less upset with and less inclined to respond reasonably to someone who was not capable of that understanding or depth of feeling.
Whatever words you may have had to apologize your sentiments are obviously not superficial and I respect the integrity and importance you place on the issues we related here. I think we both hold these ideals close to our hearts and that passion can often overwhelm any reason. And I offer my apologies for any disrespect I’ve shown to them and to you.
posted by Smedleyman at 8:33 AM on January 9, 2006
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posted by A189Nut at 6:05 PM on January 6, 2006