you would rather have a lexus, some justice, a dream or some substance?

October 17, 2006 8:40 AM

Why I Gave Up On Hip-Hop "Hip-hop was still largely about the break-beat and dance moves and brothers who battled solely on wax. It was Whodini, Eric B. & Rakim, Dana Dane, EPMD, A Tribe Called Quest. And always and forever, Lonnae Loves Cool James. I knew all LL Cool J's b-sides and used to sleep under a poster of him that hung on my wall. I still have a picture of the two of us that was taken one Howard homecoming weekend.

And if, gradually, we noticed a trend, more violence, more misogyny, more materialism, more hostile sexual stereotyping, a general constricting of subject matter, for a very long time we let it slide (.pdf)"
posted by four panels (118 comments total)

Hmm, I always thought it was Ladies Love Cool James. Maybe James and Lonnae had a falling out?
posted by NationalKato at 8:44 AM on October 17, 2006

That was the first hip hop song I really liked. I remember hearing it in middle school, and knew that I would never be able to relate to it, but it was awesome.
posted by QuarterlyProphet at 8:44 AM on October 17, 2006

At least I'm still right about Eric & Parrish Makin' Dollars.
posted by NationalKato at 8:45 AM on October 17, 2006

Are we talking about corporate hip-hop, or hip-hop in general? I'd ask that this author take a listen to current recordings by Common, Dead Prez, Atmosphere, The Roots, before damning hip-hop in general because JayZ or PDiddy likes to rap about bling.

This isn't a digression of hip-hop, but of what ends up on corporate radio playlists.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:49 AM on October 17, 2006

mcstayinskool, the author talks about those hip-hop artists in the article...you just have to read further down.
posted by NationalKato at 8:50 AM on October 17, 2006

Screw that, I went and saw Del the Funky Homosapien this weekend at the cat's cradle in Chapel Hill, while mainstream hip hop might be all of these things the under ground is still alive, and is increasingly becoming the most all inclusive genre of music. Respect for ladies, racism is considered so banal it rarely makes records, and even then only to talk about it in derogatory tones. Finally lots of underground preaches on the benefits of edumacation and some of it even includes instructions on getting your finances and health in check.
posted by sourbrew at 8:52 AM on October 17, 2006

Hmm, I always thought it was Ladies Love Cool James. Maybe James and Lonnae had a falling out?

I was curious about that too, but notice that the author's name is Lonnae.
posted by GeekAnimator at 8:52 AM on October 17, 2006

Please tell me it's "Ladies love Cool James"... don't wanna have to rename the pug.

sourbrew: Officially jealous of you seeing Del. Loved him ever since I discovered him via Gorillaz and then acquired more albums. Mr Dobbalina Mr. Bob Dobbalina...
posted by docgonzo at 8:55 AM on October 17, 2006

"What up?
To all rappers: 'shut up'
And while you're shuttin' up put a shirt on, at least a button up.

Is they rhymers or strippin' males?
Outta work jerks since they shut down Chippendales."
posted by kosem at 8:56 AM on October 17, 2006

Underground hip-hop is stale, recycled and not half as inventive as it was 99 - 2002.
posted by dead_ at 8:56 AM on October 17, 2006

fair enough, NationalKato, and apologies for not reading it more thoroughly (mystery of the universe: how do people read the whole damn article so darn fast? I mean, you had that thing read in like 2 minutes).

In my weak defense, the FPP itself reads like "hip-hop sucks today".
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:57 AM on October 17, 2006

GeekAnimator, how'd I miss that?! Thanks. I'd hate to think my street cred was on a shaky foundation.
posted by NationalKato at 8:57 AM on October 17, 2006

for the record (and to preempt a litany of "but what about") I and many others know and love hip hop: dead prez, cyne, bahamadia, apc, black sheep, del, defari, east flatbush project, edan, five deez, mad lib, lif, styles of beyond, etc. But, this is not on mtv, and not on the radio. It's not linked to by suburban teens' MySpace pages, and its not blasting from the crevices of urban decay.
posted by four panels at 9:00 AM on October 17, 2006 [1 favorite]

My husband, Ralph, and I try to tell Sydney that rap music used to be fun. It used to call girls by prettier names. We were ladies and cuties, honeys and hotties, and we all just felt like one nation under the groove. Sydney, I tell her, I want you to have all the creativity, all the bite, all the rhythms of black rhyme, but I can't let you internalize toxic messages, no matter how cool some millionaire black rappers tell you they are.

Sounds just like a mother who is way out of touch with today's music.
posted by dead_ at 9:00 AM on October 17, 2006

Whatever's on the Clear Channel radio sucks 99% of the time. Big deal.
posted by rxrfrx at 9:01 AM on October 17, 2006

Also after reading her article I am more than a little upset at her own racism.

"And a few weeks ago, watching the Disney Channel cartoon short "Fabulizer," I seethed when the little white character lamented that his "thug pose" wasn't working."

granted I imagine that she is treating thug as only applying to a "gangsta" from a predominately black neighborhood, and was upset because this kid was projecting stereotypes on to the black community. However, hip hop has gone global. It is no longer black or white, in fact lots of awesome new hiphop is being produced by asians. By relating the fact that she was seething about the comment she belies her own racism, this kid commenting on his thug pose doesn't see a thug as a young brother from the hood, he sees a thug as a self affirmed youth who creates opportunity for himself through strength of character, which may come in the form of violence, drug dealing, or misogyny.
posted by sourbrew at 9:07 AM on October 17, 2006

As others have said, there's a whole load of Hip-Hop out there that isn't about violence etc. If she wanted she could go out to a record store and discover that Hip-Hop is an international phenomenon and has been for a few years. If she wanted, but I guess it's just easier to come up with the old staid "It isn't like it used to be" line.
posted by ob at 9:07 AM on October 17, 2006

BTW Lonnae was also on NPR Yesterday
posted by bitdamaged at 9:08 AM on October 17, 2006

What dead_ said.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:09 AM on October 17, 2006

This bit is hilarious:

I listen to the most conscious hip-hop that comes my way: Common, Talib Kweli, the Roots, KOS, Kanye West, who blends the commercial with commentary. I close my eyes to listen as Mos Def says:

My Umi said shine your light on the world.

Doesn't sound like she's listened to much Kanye, nor Kweli, if she thinks they aren't rapping about bitches, hos, chains, etc. Give me a break. Same for Mos Def and Common on his first album.

They're known for being conscious, which is why they are on every "cool" white college student's iPod, but there's materialism and misogyny there, too.
posted by dead_ at 9:10 AM on October 17, 2006

stop listening to the radio, dummy. there's plenty of great rap music out there still.

all these people lamenting the death of hip hop just don't know where to find it anymore.
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 9:10 AM on October 17, 2006

Meh, like four panels said. This is a well worn groove of a MeFi conversation. And she wasn't talking about her daughter going out and picking through Mr Lif records, she's talking about what you can hear on the radio. Which is almost always crap.
posted by everichon at 9:10 AM on October 17, 2006

"Underground hip-hop is stale, recycled and not half as inventive as it was 99 - 2002."

please see mike relm who is doing crazy stuff with dvd scratching.

Dj Shadow who is so prolific he really needs no introduction.

and finally Cee Lo who with the help of Danger Mouse has brought 70's funk and soul back into the mainstream through gnarls barkley
posted by sourbrew at 9:11 AM on October 17, 2006

wow, a love affair with hip-hop turned to contempt. what else is fucking new.
posted by phaedon at 9:11 AM on October 17, 2006

Good discussion of old school here.
posted by caddis at 9:12 AM on October 17, 2006

Hey sourbrew, those are all mainstream artists. I'm talking about the underground.
posted by dead_ at 9:13 AM on October 17, 2006

So it isn't just me. I'm 31 and used to be heavily into underground hip hop, even having a couple of shows on college radio in the early to mid-90s. Since about the late '90s, though, I've really not been impressed by hip hop, and I wasn't sure if it wasn't just me getting older, or if the music really was changing.

I still don't totally discount the "I'm just getting older" factor, but it's very true that the music has gotten too mainstream, past the point of no return. And it's not surprising -- hell, I even predicted in my chats with friends and on the air over 10 years that hip hop would follow the same path that jazz, blues, R&B (to an extent), and rock all did. They'd eventually be "discovered" by "the mainstream" and, well, suck.

Not all once-underground musical forms suffer this fate to the same degree; there's still some good, innovative jazz being made, and there's still blues music with integrity. R&B occasionally gets a shot in the arm like it did in the '70s and (to a much smaller, shorter-lived extent) neo-soul in the last ten years. Reggae never really "mainstreamed" too much, though abortions like dancehall and reggaeton couldn't have helped.

Ultimately, I decided it was time to just lay low, listen to my old stuff, and wait until the next totally new, radical thing comes out of left field, the way hip hop did some 30 years ago. I'll enjoy a good 10-15 years of it, until this new form also becomes "mainstream." And so the cycle continues.

So, when does that new musical form emerge, anyway?
posted by CommonSense at 9:13 AM on October 17, 2006

I like my mysoginy, materialism and violence in the guise of rock 'n' roll!

Saul Williams ftw
posted by slimepuppy at 9:14 AM on October 17, 2006

And also, the new Shadow album, "The Outsider," is only about one third hip hop. The production on it is brilliant, but nothing new--E-40 invented and named it (hyphy!).

I'm sure, though, that E-40 is just too ignorant for most people (like the author of this article) to get down with, even though he has one of the best albums of 2006 with "My Ghetto Report Card."
posted by dead_ at 9:16 AM on October 17, 2006

i think its less important to cite the fact there are many lesser known acts out there that are still doing it like its always been done, and/or delivering the same power and truth that PE brought back in the day, cause anyone that pays attention knows that there are, and that it is more important to note that this is a time when those who grew up on this form of black music, especially those who are black (particularly because there is no better person to reach black youth then black Men), look at the cooption and commercialization that has risen from what was once something completely different and attempt to address that.

you can say, oh he is just old and out of touch but that this is a conversation that is taking place, and least i believe it is, is a great & honest thing
posted by 8 Bit at 9:16 AM on October 17, 2006

also, blackalicious will make anybody happy about hip-hop again.
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 9:17 AM on October 17, 2006

whoops, i guess Lonnae isn't a black man.
posted by 8 Bit at 9:19 AM on October 17, 2006

look at the cooption and commercialization that has risen from what was once something completely different and attempt to address that.

Ever seen the cover of "Paid in Full" ?

Check the chains around their necks and the dollar bill wallpaper background, then get back to me about commercialization and cooption of those sacred ideals that everyone seems to think characterized hip hop from the beginning.

This discussion is tired.
posted by dead_ at 9:20 AM on October 17, 2006

Yes, 99% of everything on ClearChannel and Cox and whatnot is going to suck, as has been pointed out on this thread.

But we're not just talking about shitty music here, when we're talking about hip hop. We're talking about a seriously fucked up world view that is completely inescapable, all over the airwaves everywhere.

So taking on the violence and misogyny common in popular hip hop today is a different, bigger issue than taking on the vapidity of top 40 radio.
posted by ibmcginty at 9:23 AM on October 17, 2006

"this is a time when those who grew up on this form of black music look at the cooption and commercialization that has risen from what was once something completely different and attempt to address that"

Name one genre of music (hell, art in general) where this has not happened before. It's hardly the Death of Hip Hop(TM). Just a bunch of people (bitterly) remembering the good old times and how kids today yadda yadda.

I mean, can anyone still remember a time when R&B stood for Rhythm and Blues? 'cause what I hear on channels like MTV Base has neither.
posted by slimepuppy at 9:23 AM on October 17, 2006

I think she glosses over much of 80s hiphop being really awful. I listened to everything in the 80s and loved it, but I'd roll my eyes every time Kool Moe Dee would go on about how big his dick was and how many women and cars he owned and how big his speakers were, and Ice T's Crime Pays days was much the same. LL Cool J and Big Daddy Kane used to rap about the same crap. Sure, lots of hiphop was innocent and fun, but there was a ton of lame male posturing back then that the Jay Zs and P Diddys of today simply continue.

I think her 80s rap nostalgia misses out on a lot of crap. I recall the first real breakthrough in the 80s was De La Soul's 3 Feet High and Rising. That really ushered in a positive vibe. Public Enemy was the first to bring politics to the forefront of popular 80s hiphop. But much of old rap wasn't nice to women, wasn't about simpler things and was simply the same crap that exists today.

I will agree that the whole gangsta bend in the 90s was a turn for the worst, and while NWA and Eazy E did have something to say, all the other guys just seemed to copy them and try to one-up them and it killed the music.
posted by mathowie at 9:23 AM on October 17, 2006 [1 favorite]

Hip Hop , has become what Rock became in the late 70s, lame, watered down, and generally bullshit. It needs to die and be reborn later.
posted by Liquidwolf at 9:25 AM on October 17, 2006

Ignoring for the moment the 'scene', the failure of the more common Hip-Hop (*not* Rap) is in the music. When I first started hearing it, I liked it a lot. An interesting blend of musical styles, with some nice beats all kind of mixed with Rap. Unfortunately *I* very rarely hear anything that has evolved; quite the opposite, as the music seems to get progressively more homogeneous as time goes on. In more "rap" category, I think there is hope for the masses with people like Kanye doing, IMO, some really great music, even if he does seem overly aware of that fact.

Sure there might be an underground of great Hip-Hop, but there are only so many albums I am willing to buy before giving up on a music form that seems have to to being entirely derivative of itself.
posted by Bovine Love at 9:32 AM on October 17, 2006

Wow, all these "you need to hear" suggestions are the same as they were five years ago. That's gotta tell you something.

Of course there's underground hiphop. There probably will be for another twenty or thirty years at least. That doesn't mean that hiphop overall hasn't sucked since the rise of that whole East Coast/West Coast nonsense. Remember, it used to be that the best hiphop was what everyone was hearing; you didn't need to hunt for it.

And if underground hiphop means that hiphop is still going strong, well hey, then so is Rock'N'Roll, and Jazz, and Classical Music for that matter.
posted by stinkycheese at 9:36 AM on October 17, 2006

Great post. Thank you.
posted by googly at 9:39 AM on October 17, 2006

All these new underground bands you are mentioning are like ten years old.
posted by keswick at 9:42 AM on October 17, 2006

How to handle a hip hop backpacker.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:43 AM on October 17, 2006

I tuned out of hip hop as soon as the thug thing happened but CeeLo Green got me back in. Not so much Gnarls as his two solo CDs.
posted by unSane at 9:45 AM on October 17, 2006

keswick, exactly. What I'm sayin' ... the underground is dead. Nothing inventive.

Yet people are too cool to look at mainstream hip-hop and see the innovation right in front of their faces. Like I mentioned, MCs such as E-40 and Ghostface, the Clipse and the Game have put out a lot of stellar stuff, but are ignored because they don't have hipster status or whatever. Maybe they're too popular or something. Whatever.
posted by dead_ at 9:45 AM on October 17, 2006

Cf. Sarah Jones: Your revolution will not be between these thighs.
posted by enrevanche at 9:53 AM on October 17, 2006

er... "will not HAPPEN between..."

Need more coffee.
posted by enrevanche at 9:55 AM on October 17, 2006

First of all, mainstream producer Timbaland is sonically more "out there" than just about any "underground" artist you can name. In fact, many "indie" (shudder) hip-hopers, through their slavish loyalty to "old-school", are the tired and boring ones. Mainstream hip-hop is weird right now.

Second , a lot of people on this thread sound like Tipper Gore: Oh, I'm not square, I liked rock & roll when it meant something, not like this nasty Prince fellow and all those evil metal bands.

Third, the real hip-hop underground, the kind that gets sold in mix tapes and CDs on the streets of Brooklyn, is mostly about dealing cocaine. This is the culture, just like the narcocorridos of Mexico. If you don't like the culture, stop co-opting it. Nobody gets mad when Johnny Cash kills a man just to watch him die.

Fourth, Abe Simpson: "I used to be 'with it', but then they changed what 'it' was. Now what I'm with isn't 'it', and what's 'it' seems weird and scary."
posted by Bookhouse at 9:55 AM on October 17, 2006 [2 favorites]

I apologize for over-use of sarcastic quotation marks.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:56 AM on October 17, 2006

What Bookhouse said. Perfect. You nailed it. Exactly. Amen.
posted by dead_ at 9:58 AM on October 17, 2006

*sigh* Anyone arguing about whether backpackers are more or less real than commercial hip hop fans should be MAKING MUSIC instead of wasting their time on marketing.
posted by mkb at 9:59 AM on October 17, 2006

Third, the real hip-hop underground, the kind that gets sold in mix tapes and CDs on the streets of Brooklyn, is mostly about dealing cocaine. This is the culture, just like the narcocorridos of Mexico. If you don't like the culture, stop co-opting it.

As they would say on the hip-hop blogs: co-sign.
posted by dead_ at 9:59 AM on October 17, 2006

Maybe the dearth of mainstream non-misogynist rap has a little something to do with the rise of fairly vapid R-n-B music like Beyonce? I mean, there just aren't any good, popular, current female rappers "besides" Missy E, MIA, Peaches, Lil Kim, Lisa LeftEye, Foxy Brown, and mofinn' Fergie of the My HUmps fame? (And sorry, but they're just not selling records; and the American ones among that list are a bit long in the tooth.) It just strikes me that women rappers are less common in USian music than they were 10 years ago.
posted by DenOfSizer at 10:02 AM on October 17, 2006

Den: Look to England. Lady Sovereign signed to Def Jam.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:07 AM on October 17, 2006

Oldschool/Newschool...the whole genre has always sucked.
posted by dsquid at 10:18 AM on October 17, 2006

I'd also like to point out that there seems to have been a de-evolution of Hip Hop that occured when the styles of the south (Crunk, Hyphee (SP??), Whatever) got mixed in with the general zietgiest of the genre. It seems the music has lost a lot of its flow and lyrical charm, fully becomming the mockery of itself that Gangsta rap had begun. I don't mean to suggest that Hip Hop is dead, but mainstream rap has come a long way since even the summer of 2001 when there were plenty of talented artists dropping hits all over the radio. Now you have to dig pretty deep into the vaults of obscurity to come up with some half-decent Hip Hop.
posted by smackwich at 10:19 AM on October 17, 2006

I have three words for y'all:

N*ggas With Attitude.

CRAZY MUTHAFUCKA NAMED ICE-CUBE

Is that the non-violent, glorious hip-hop she's misses?
posted by spicynuts at 10:21 AM on October 17, 2006

for the record (and to preempt a litany of "but what about") I and many others know and love hip hop: dead prez, cyne, bahamadia, apc, black sheep, del, defari, east flatbush project, edan, five deez, mad lib, lif, styles of beyond, etc. But, this is not on mtv, and not on the radio. It's not linked to by suburban teens' MySpace pages, and its not blasting from the crevices of urban decay.

De La Soul is still around too. And I got to see Digible Planets last year. So the problem isn't that hip-hop sucks now. There's clearly lots of great music out there. The problem is that most people are idiots. What's new about that?
posted by mrgrimm at 10:25 AM on October 17, 2006

Every generation complains about the newer generation's music as if their shit was the be-all and end-all of greatness. I am just as guilty of this as the next music snob. However, I hold out hope due to the fact that history has proven that this belief usually turns out wrong. The greatest things are still to come.
posted by afx114 at 10:31 AM on October 17, 2006

Man, I'm out of it. The only guy I really listen to and admire is Michael Franti /Spearhead.
posted by willmize at 10:39 AM on October 17, 2006

Bookhouse: I see your point, it just makes me sad that we can't keep up with our BritSistas! Also, i think it's just sad that it's so fucking segregated.
De La Soul - pah! Nice, but just so ancient.
posted by DenOfSizer at 10:40 AM on October 17, 2006

Check the chains around their necks and the dollar bill wallpaper background, then get back to me about commercialization and cooption of those sacred ideals that everyone seems to think characterized hip hop from the beginning.

And this is different from rock'n'roll ..... how?
posted by blucevalo at 10:49 AM on October 17, 2006

Is that the non-violent, glorious hip-hop she's misses?
posted by spicynuts

No. Many of the artists she mentions were selling records prior to N.W.A.'s Straight Outta Compton.
posted by NationalKato at 11:03 AM on October 17, 2006

I can live with some of the c-rap, most of it makes my head hurt. Then there is the real pain...when my 13y/o daugher and 10y/o son want to go spend (my) money on a movie about a rapper who sold drugs, got shot and lived to "rap" about it. I convinced them to wait for it to come out on cable. May not be different in most people's eyes, it's my little was oy saying, I'll never take money from my pocket and give it to someone like that.
posted by winks007 at 11:03 AM on October 17, 2006

Yes, Timbaland and for that matter The Neptunes have had very nice production, and some of it is - dare I say - avant garde. But those are not new names, and that's production, not rhymes. Can we at least agree that Rap/HipHop is well into its yacht rock phase? Seems to me it's been stuck there for about a decade now. I mean, seriously - 50 Cent?

OTOH I don't believe music needs to be completely new every ten years or so either, so...whatever. I'm all about 1970/71-era Hard Rock right now, myself.

/cranks "Heavy Equipment"
posted by stinkycheese at 11:06 AM on October 17, 2006

Is that the non-violent, glorious hip-hop she's misses?

I don't think NWA his hip-hop, though. That said, I always saw NWA as making social commentary more than they were glorifying acts of misogyny and violence. There were always themes of tragedy and regret fairly eloquently expressed behing NWA's lyrics that you hardly ever hear in the lyrics of 50 cent for example.

I think there's a huge difference.
posted by psmealey at 11:06 AM on October 17, 2006

I don't think NWA his hip-hop, though.

?????
posted by dead_ at 11:20 AM on October 17, 2006

psmealey --

Can you back that up with examples? I'm not being snarky, but the idea of NWA being full of regret?

Ice Cube would like ta say
That I'm a crazy mutha fucka from around the way
Since I was a youth, I smoked weed out
Now I'm the mutha fucka that ya read about
Takin' a life or two
that's what the hell I do, you don't like how I'm livin
well fuck you!

Meanwhile, the chorus from 50 Cent's Ghetto Quran, which is an in-depth oral history of the Queens crack trade (as confirmed in the book Queens Reigns Supreme):

Lord forgive me, for I've sinned
Over and over again, just to stay on top
I recall memories, filled with sin
Over and over again, and again
posted by Bookhouse at 11:25 AM on October 17, 2006

Bookhouse, let's not start exchanging select sections of hip-hop lyrics. Both N.W.A. and 50 Cent have written stupid, empty lyrics and insightful, remorseful lyrics. Or do you not remember Candy Shop?
posted by NationalKato at 11:35 AM on October 17, 2006

How come whenever hip hop is mentioned the fans come to its defense by saying the good stuff's just not on the radio but when fans of rock and every other genre say exactly the same thing they're condemned as indie snob hipsters who should stfu?
posted by dobbs at 11:43 AM on October 17, 2006

stfu, dobbs.
posted by dobbs at 11:43 AM on October 17, 2006 [1 favorite]

And wasn't there some MeFite who was assembling a collection of hip hop mp3s for the neophytes? Coulda sworn I got an email promising something....
posted by dobbs at 11:46 AM on October 17, 2006

I don't think NWA his hip-hop, though.

Sorry, I meant is hip-hop. To explain, I came to believe that the term hip-hop was the umbrella taxonomy to account for all sub hierarchies of gangsta rap, rap, trip-hop, "new" R&B and so on, as well as all clothing and art stylings ascribed thereto.

When I had used this construction in the past (object "gangsta" belongs to class "hip-hop") however, I had been corrected for it, though I'm still not exactly sure why.

Beyond this, there's no question that NWA has many songs in which they posture as chest thumping, misogynistic tough guys, but it always seemed to me that this was a storytelling device rather than authentic boasting or fronting. They too many songs about friends being killed, being used by selfish women who didn't love them, and not having any future to look forward to in order to interpret these as other than cautionary tales.

OTOH, you could be right about 50-cent. Maybe I missed something there.
posted by psmealey at 11:59 AM on October 17, 2006

I'm no expert, but based on the evidence of stuff like this, I have a hard time thinking of NWA as anything but a very good example of talented artists who took pandering for dollars to a whole 'nother level.
posted by you just lost the game at 12:08 PM on October 17, 2006

That link in my last post is probably NSFW (lots of profanity)...
posted by you just lost the game at 12:11 PM on October 17, 2006

That link is not NSFW for the profanity, it's not safe for the freakin pop ups all over the place.
posted by spicynuts at 12:18 PM on October 17, 2006

psmealey-

I mostly agree with that (except for the part about "selfish women who didn't love them" ... I mean, those songs are straight up misogyny). NWA benefited from having one near-genius (Dr. Dre) and one very talented person (Ice Cube) who were able to bring a lot to the table. In most of these discussions, most people (including myself) seem to overlook the fact that about half of Compton is Ice Cube-less, Eazy-E-less unlistenable crap.

My point was that most of what you can say about them, you can say about 50 Cent (including having Dr. Dre around). Not that most of his music isn't still crap.
posted by Bookhouse at 12:20 PM on October 17, 2006

Bookhouse, don't forget about The D.O.C., a member of N.W.A. that did a lot of writing for Dre and Ice Cube. D.O.C. went on to write for Dre after his larynx was severed in a car accident.
posted by NationalKato at 12:28 PM on October 17, 2006

That is, went on to write for Dre during his solo career...
posted by NationalKato at 12:28 PM on October 17, 2006

“who took pandering for dollars to a whole 'nother level.”

I saw the Jay-Z video, with it’s Budweiser commerical tie in, during the Bears game Monday.
THAT’S taking pandering to a whole new level. I’m sitting there thinking: “Is it about who can be the biggest whore?” I mean screw Anna Nichole Smith, that dude can really blow corporate cock. Kurtis Blow who?
(Chuck D - where are you?)
posted by Smedleyman at 12:30 PM on October 17, 2006

Many young black people are not interested in sharing cultural interests with white people. They are not interested in making white people the focus of their cultural interests. How many NBA or NFL jerseys of white athletes do you see young black people wearing? If you know any young black people (not counting people in your college or with a college degree), how many of them do you know that own any cds by someone white?

If young black people listen to some music that they think that white people like or are praising, then they are often inclined to not listen to it. Public Enemy spoke to the young black man in the 80's. So the young black man listened to public enemy. Educated white folks jumped on the bandwagon after a while once they had listened to it. They found that white people were about the only people left on the bandwagon. It's liberal, educated white people now who listen to Public Enemy.

If you go to a concert for LLCoolJ or Public Enemy or Ton Loc, you will see more white people than black people. Back in the day, you would not have. Soon, you will see black people stop showing up at Kanye West concerts.

So don't be too surprised to never see any "acclaimed" artists or "good" hip-hop high on the charts. It won't be there because it is a self-defining genre. Part of the very reason that it is popular hip-hop is because educated white people don't like it.
posted by flarbuse at 12:35 PM on October 17, 2006 [1 favorite]

I have a hard time thinking of NWA as anything but a very good example of talented artists who took pandering for dollars to a whole 'nother level.

Who were they pandering to with that song? Bukkake Ltd.?
posted by NationalKato at 12:35 PM on October 17, 2006

yes, of course EPMD had the dookie chains and talked about golddiggers and Big Daddy Kane had ladies in bikinis drapped around him and Ice T wanted to get butt naked and fuck.

maybe i am interpreting all of this wrong, but i take from it, and from where i have seen other places, is that the vapid materialist misogonist has gained traction and is enlarging as the dominant discourse within the hiphop community, especially with regard to youth. While NWA may have been kicking bitches to the curb and whatever, it was Positive K who was on the radio (i can't think who exactly would have been on the radio, sue me).

There is probably much more good hip hop now than previously, not particularly now, but because we have a history to choose from. However, most of the good is being left out by the hegemony of the radio/bet/mtv.

I'm just saying it is a much bigger issue than someone saying 'back in our day we were all happy and got along.' Yes, for every run dmc there was an above the law (although even ATL was political), but since hip hop is still so young, this would be like rock looking at itself in the 70s and attempting to reposition itself. or maybe this is just what i want to believe.
posted by 8 Bit at 12:39 PM on October 17, 2006

De La Soul - pah! Nice, but just so ancient.

They put out the Impossible Mission mixtape this year. It's pretty good.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:41 PM on October 17, 2006

Flarbuse has a good point. It's very much like the city-living folks who try to tell people who live in the country that the music they listen to isn't real country music (as I said on another thread recently).
posted by Bookhouse at 12:47 PM on October 17, 2006

Flarbuse is dead on. DEAD on.

It's why, when I was in college, I was ridiculed for listening to artists like Young Jeezy, D4L or anything that falls into the category "snap" music. Educated people aren't supposed to like it.
posted by dead_ at 1:02 PM on October 17, 2006

I have had colleagues at school and work, with graduate degrees in scientific fields, who listen to Clear Channel Top 40 Urban Hits or however you'd like to classify the rap that gets played on the radio. These are black men. I don't think they're trying to emulate the uneducated or seem ignorant and somehow fit in by listening to it. I just think they like crappy music. There is violent music about drug-dealing that doesn't get played on the radio. It just doesn't have the characteristics necessary for being played 25 times a day.

I'd like to posit that the violent rappers have blacker audiences than the more positive rappers because it's uncomfortable for a white person to admit that he likes the violent stuff, and play it in his car real loud, and go to shows. It seems inauthentic, because we're used to seeing young black males as misogynist criminals, and if they are big fans of that music, hey, it's totally acceptable. The only rap music that's acceptable for whites to openly subscribe to is A) music by white rappers (e.g. Eminem) and B) music that is either non-violent and inclusive (backpacker stuff), or has lost its edge due to time (e.g. Public Enemy, Doggystyle-era Snoop and Dre, NWA).
posted by rxrfrx at 1:20 PM on October 17, 2006

Uninspiring, lazy "music". Pornography for the ears.

"educated people aren't supposed to like it"

-- a very telling, truly frightening staement.
posted by wfc123 at 1:25 PM on October 17, 2006

Uninspiring, lazy "music". Pornography for the ears.

"educated people aren't supposed to like it"

-- a very telling, truly frightening statement.
posted by wfc123 at 1:25 PM on October 17, 2006

End of the article:

Lean wit' it
Rock wit' it

She snaps her fingers and I just nod. Change is gonna come. Meanwhile, her song is catchy. And there are no bitches!

At least not in the chorus.

First verse of that song:

I bounce in the club so the ho's call me Rocky,
Posted in the cut, and I'm lookin for a blockhead,
Yup in my white tee! I break a bitch back,
And I keep a big bank, oh I think dey like dat!
Before I leave the house, i'm slizzard on a goose,
And i'm higher then a plane, so a nigga really loose,
And I can lean wit it, and I can rock wit it,
And if u gotta friend, she gotta suck a cock wit it!

posted by team lowkey at 2:01 PM on October 17, 2006

Part of the very reason that it is popular hip-hop is because educated white people don't like it.

I don't know how a black person would feel being told they only like something because white people don't like it.

Please, can we take a step back and look at larger American culture? Is it just African-American culture growing more sexualized and materialistic, or do ya think maybe that's part of a larger trend? How many of you will argue about how the decrease in quality of rap is directly opposite to an increase in the quality of country, rock, or pop?

All I mean is, the arguments you're making on the negative influence of rap on African-American youth, are you willing to apply similar arguments to negative trends we see among young women who listen to HillaBritLohansonry? And if you're not, why? Basically, are we seeing a larger cultural effect, or are you saying black people are simply more affected by music?
posted by schroedinger at 2:04 PM on October 17, 2006

I dunno I think everyone tries to over simplify the question including the author of the article. Is rocknroll just one thing?, no it is a hundred different things. I have loved hip hop since high school (mid 80's), had a radio show in the past, met and talked to people like slug of atmoshpere, blah blah. Intellectual rap while techinically brillant is to self aware to be that crunk, southern/top 40 has the stupidest message but it sounds cool. College radio will give you the underground (read white) mind expanding kinda stuff, but Southern radio in places with a large black population will tell you a lot more about the state of hip hop today which is I admit not very progressive but really the content of the music is the same as it was in the early 1900's country blues. You got a hook and you talk about money,sex or what a badass you are or probably all three at once. Howling Wolf in person makes Jay-Z look like a silly kid. These guys were not PC, but that is what gave them outsider edge. The chanting style of southern rap goes way back to jump ups in the field. People who complain about the content of rap being brutish, well it is, have you ever been poor and surrounded by poverty, it is a pretty brutish existance. Where is all this educational/ insightful rock n roll I missed. I hated the radio in the mid 80's and I hate it now. It is all about what gets the pretty girl's asses shakin' and don't you forget it. All that bling in rap is just a sign of the corrupted american dream that is being pushed on all fronts. Don't hate the player, hate the game (but that flavor of love show is f'd). and this discussion is totally played out. Hip-hop is global now, but I doubt that matters to a poor guy looking to get high and kick back, should it? Oh and if black people automatically hate white people shit, explain to me Paul Wall and on the flip side Del.
I also think that both black and white people have got to think that chicken noodle soup song is super annoying, but it is really popular on southern urban radio. Shit ain't suppossed to make sense and it never will.
posted by los pijamas del gato at 2:05 PM on October 17, 2006 [1 favorite]

and man o man do i ever need spell check!
posted by los pijamas del gato at 2:09 PM on October 17, 2006

*Shakes Fist* "Kids these days!"
/ageinghipsterfilter
posted by los pijamas del gato at 2:17 PM on October 17, 2006

Who were they pandering to with that song? Bukkake Ltd.?

Assholes of any race who like getting blow jobs, but hate and fear women.
posted by you just lost the game at 2:39 PM on October 17, 2006

Oh, and...Metafilter: Shit ain't suppossed to make sense and it never will.
posted by you just lost the game at 2:40 PM on October 17, 2006

Rap died the day the original KDAY went off the air.
posted by oncogenesis at 3:40 PM on October 17, 2006

Wow. Usually these types of conversations have a lot of "oh, you're just not listening to the good stuff" followed by a list of backpackers, white/nerdcore guys, and artists from like twenty years ago. And the observation that there is good hip hop out there, you just have to dig deeper for it (true)

At any rate, here's a great interview with KRS-One's brother about the time BDP bum rushed PM Dawn's set after they had made negative comments about the Blastmaster himself. It's a must read if you're at all interested in that era of hip hop. That was back before everybody started beefing with guns the way they do now.

Also, as a bonus, here's the future of hip hop for ya ;)
posted by First Post at 3:58 PM on October 17, 2006

(also, people forget that these are old musical forms now. Hip hop and punk rock came out thirty years ago! Compare the music scene then versus thirty years before that. It's part of the "everything's been done" slowdown that things haven't changed as drastically as they did in the past, but the dissatisfaction with music of today may be pointing to a need for something radically new, or at least different from anything that's been done in a while. It's not just hip hop in particular.)
posted by First Post at 4:02 PM on October 17, 2006

pop != hiphop
posted by 31d1 at 4:43 PM on October 17, 2006

perhaps, but current hiphop = pop
posted by caddis at 5:06 PM on October 17, 2006

the content of the music is the same as it was in the early 1900's country blues.

This is the salient point of this discussion.

Listen to Bessie Smith and tell me that music is positive. Black intellectuals have been against the sexual and visceral music that has primarly come from poor blacks for as long as anyone can remember.

To be frank crunk music excellent for what it does. Providing simple dance moves for people who can't dance to do along with music in order to get hype. That's it. There is damn near no music in this world that can make a party pop faster than crunk and of those that exist none are american.
posted by Rubbstone at 5:32 PM on October 17, 2006

There is damn near no music in this world that can make a party pop faster than crunk and of those that exist none are american.

Which other musics are you thinking of?
posted by dydecker at 5:34 PM on October 17, 2006

There's a spoken word poet / rapper named Sage Francis who got received acclaim in poetry circles with this piece about how rap changed.

Tried to find the mp3 of it, only could come up with the lyrics..."Mullet" from 1998ish.
posted by YaoPau at 5:37 PM on October 17, 2006

Which other musics are you thinking of?
Soca, Dancehall, Some westafrican tradiational and afrocaribean rythyms. I would include Jazz but no really dances anymore so....
Primarily stuff that has a swinging feel. Crunk has a similar sort of musical feel instead of the whole swing it swings and then almost locks.
posted by Rubbstone at 5:50 PM on October 17, 2006

I have hope, but there's still a big part of me that thinks that Midnight Marauders was the high point of hip hop, and while there's been good stuff since, nothing's blown my mind like that record did.

Thanks for that link First Post. I loved reading about "Fire and Earth." No one remembers them now, but Brother J from X Clan was one of the best, if not *the* best, old school MCs out there.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:42 PM on October 17, 2006

Shit Sandwich with a stolen, sampled beat.
posted by dbiedny at 6:47 PM on October 17, 2006

Uninspiring, lazy "music". Pornography for the ears.

This is a thread about Michael Tippet now?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 7:06 PM on October 17, 2006

dbiedny loves himself a shit sandwich
posted by caddis at 7:21 PM on October 17, 2006

Spreadin' da love, caddis. Brown Zune style, you know what I'm sayin?
posted by dbiedny at 7:39 PM on October 17, 2006

so why is there more violence, more misogyny, and more racism in hiphop now? noones really addressed this question.

p.s. hell is other people's music.
posted by Miles Long at 8:11 PM on October 17, 2006

I thought it was "ladies love" Cool J.
posted by delmoi at 9:34 PM on October 17, 2006

I thought it was "ladies love" Cool J.

Nice you could show up to read the thread.
posted by Wolof at 1:08 AM on October 18, 2006

Straight Outta Compton was released in 1988.

Nasty As They Wanna Be was released in 1989.

Gilbert O'Sullivan was granted an injunction against Biz Markie in 1991, and from that point on hip hop became extremely expensive to release legally.

How to cover the high overhead inherent in the genre? The same way the film studios did after the release of Star Wars (1977) and Heaven's Gate (1980): by marketing to 15-year-old boys who can spend their parents' money. Hence lots of macho posturing, make-believe, and fear of girls.

I think it's that simple.
posted by stammer at 1:14 AM on October 18, 2006

so why is there more violence, more misogyny, and more racism in hiphop now?

i don't think there is. There has always been a Kevy Kev waterbed for every Melle Mel Message.

The promotion of gangsterism and violence are a self fulfilling prophesy for the corporate masters of the music business and the money obsessed society that supports them. it doesn't hurt that it reinforces racist stereotypes either, from a divide and rule stand-point.
Which major label is going to promote an artist who says - major labels suck and politics is a sham? PE broke that bone many moons ago and then the whole thing was amputated to avoid another politicized infection of the body corporate.

Yeah ^ making records has become much more difficult from the legal point of view. There will never be another 3 feet high and rising that goes on to global success. Uncleared samples; that's what I want to hear from the underground!

Anyway, if you are limiting your hip hop to english language only, you are missing a world of music. Also, see Australia where is it going off as they used to say. UK represent as well.
posted by asok at 2:09 AM on October 18, 2006

This discussion sucks. Too many white people who don't understand hiphop well enough to make declarative statements making broadly declarative statements. Too many white people who don't understand race and how it affects hiphop making broadly declarative statements about race and hiphop. Anyone who looks at the white underground and sees a non-racist community is beyond oblivious. Underground hiphop has got a huge race problem. Hiphop has gone global? Like Coca-Cola, maybe.
posted by Embryo at 10:59 AM on October 18, 2006

Embryo, I always know when somebody is full of shit when they start whining about how much cred everybody else doesn't have.
posted by dobie at 11:44 AM on October 18, 2006

Why hip-hop sucks in '06
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:17 PM on October 18, 2006

MetaFilter: This discussion sucks. Too many white people
posted by rxrfrx at 6:59 PM on October 18, 2006