Cornerstone of Israeli Nationalism
May 8, 2007 9:31 PM Subscribe
In Jerusalem, archaeology is political.
Haaretz story on a recent discovery. Other ongoing excavations in the Old City of Jerusalem.
Conflict resolution which considers the needs of the different parties.
[more inside]
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request -- cortex
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posted by acro at 9:32 PM on May 8, 2007
Is there going to be an abridged version of this post? Not that I'm pseudo-intellectual, or anything.
posted by stavrogin at 10:00 PM on May 8, 2007
posted by stavrogin at 10:00 PM on May 8, 2007
This is not just an "I/P" (Israel/Palestine) post. It's ALL the I/P posts in one!!!
posted by wendell at 10:04 PM on May 8, 2007
posted by wendell at 10:04 PM on May 8, 2007
The abridgment, as near as I can tell: The FPP is a bit inaccurate, in that it talks about two different things. The first, the Tomb of Herod, is in Herodium, which is not in Jerusalem at all, but rather in the West Bank, south of Bethlehem, there seems to be no controversy about it. The other links refer to construction near the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif, which was built by Herod, but is unrelated to the recent discovery. The work caused some controversy a couple months back, with Arabs claiming it was an effort to undermine the Temple Mount, and the Israelis claiming it was needed repair work. The links the poster gave are a bit old, in the end UNESCO said that the dig was not harming the Temple Mount and was needed repairs, but said that Israel should be more transparent in carrying out archaelogical digs in Jersusalem
As far as I can tell, the other links are a random hodgepodge of sites, representing a wide variety of views from more or less dubious sources on many different issues.
posted by blahblahblah at 10:04 PM on May 8, 2007
As far as I can tell, the other links are a random hodgepodge of sites, representing a wide variety of views from more or less dubious sources on many different issues.
posted by blahblahblah at 10:04 PM on May 8, 2007
Good god amighty, thassa lotta links!
Sure do hope that "Old City Initiative" (or something like it) can ultimately lead (or at least help lead) Israelis and Palestinians to some sort of fair and equitable sharing of that incredible, beautiful place, Jerusalem.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:09 PM on May 8, 2007
Sure do hope that "Old City Initiative" (or something like it) can ultimately lead (or at least help lead) Israelis and Palestinians to some sort of fair and equitable sharing of that incredible, beautiful place, Jerusalem.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:09 PM on May 8, 2007
Oh, and for those REALLY interested in the controversy, here is the live webcam that the Israeli Antiquities Authority set up to try to defuse tensions at the Temple Mount repairs.
Incidentally, what is the Cornerstone of Israeli Nationalism referred to in the title?
posted by blahblahblah at 10:12 PM on May 8, 2007
Incidentally, what is the Cornerstone of Israeli Nationalism referred to in the title?
posted by blahblahblah at 10:12 PM on May 8, 2007
Granted its not well formatted, I'll work on that, but I disagree -- archaeology is not controvertial, instrumental in establishing modern i.e. post 1967 Israeli nationalism? Which sites referenced are so dubious in your view blahblahblah?
posted by acro at 10:16 PM on May 8, 2007
posted by acro at 10:16 PM on May 8, 2007
flapjax, check out the editorials written by the head of the Old City Project, former Canadian ambassador to Israel, Egypt, Syria... the Globe and Mail has a paywall, but if you can access them through your library, I highly recommend them.
posted by acro at 10:27 PM on May 8, 2007
posted by acro at 10:27 PM on May 8, 2007
Which sites referenced are so dubious in your view blahblahblah?
Its not about personal politics, but instead the random assortment of links from all sides - your first link is to a book that is not online, you include links to both Finklestein AND Dershowitz, an IMDB entry about a movie and a Wikipedia link, multiple links to the same sources, and so on. There isn't really any way to separate out wheat from chaff, or to understand the context that informs the various viewpoints, or even a clear overview of the issues from a (relatively) neutral source. And almost none of it is focused on archaeology, or even Jerusalem, just the I/P conflict in general, mostly, a recipe for MeFi trouble.
archaeology is not controvertial, instrumental in establishing modern i.e. post 1967 Israeli nationalism?
And of course archeology in Israel can be controversial, but is it instrumental to Israeli nationalism? I am not sure why you would believe this to be the case, anymore than archeology is key to Palestinian nationalism. First of all, nationalism is a really unclear term in this context. If you mean Zionism in its original sense of believing in a Jewish homeland in Palestine, whether socialist, pacifist, or religious, then no, archeology had little to do with it, the historical/religious connection to the area did (remember, Zionism was a secular movement originally). If you mean Israeli nationalism from a far right-wing, settler perspective, then their nationalism is based on religion, not the sort of thing that gets shaken by actual archeology. As much as both sides might want it, neither is going to delegitimize the other (or legitimize themselves) through archeology.
In any case, archeology is just another tool in the conflict by both sides, from your BBC link, the first in the FPP:
posted by blahblahblah at 10:48 PM on May 8, 2007
Its not about personal politics, but instead the random assortment of links from all sides - your first link is to a book that is not online, you include links to both Finklestein AND Dershowitz, an IMDB entry about a movie and a Wikipedia link, multiple links to the same sources, and so on. There isn't really any way to separate out wheat from chaff, or to understand the context that informs the various viewpoints, or even a clear overview of the issues from a (relatively) neutral source. And almost none of it is focused on archaeology, or even Jerusalem, just the I/P conflict in general, mostly, a recipe for MeFi trouble.
archaeology is not controvertial, instrumental in establishing modern i.e. post 1967 Israeli nationalism?
And of course archeology in Israel can be controversial, but is it instrumental to Israeli nationalism? I am not sure why you would believe this to be the case, anymore than archeology is key to Palestinian nationalism. First of all, nationalism is a really unclear term in this context. If you mean Zionism in its original sense of believing in a Jewish homeland in Palestine, whether socialist, pacifist, or religious, then no, archeology had little to do with it, the historical/religious connection to the area did (remember, Zionism was a secular movement originally). If you mean Israeli nationalism from a far right-wing, settler perspective, then their nationalism is based on religion, not the sort of thing that gets shaken by actual archeology. As much as both sides might want it, neither is going to delegitimize the other (or legitimize themselves) through archeology.
In any case, archeology is just another tool in the conflict by both sides, from your BBC link, the first in the FPP:
The reason for the protest does not really have much to do with archaeology in fact. It is a protest about presence. The Palestinians and the wider Muslim world have an objection to anything the Israelis do that touches on the Haram.On the side of hope, MIT's Jerusalem 2050 Project is very interesting.
Such work is seen as symbolising a threat to Palestinian and Muslim identity and a rallying point for Palestinians to express their desire for their own space, their own state.
In this atmosphere, the arguments of the archaeological academics do not carry much force.
posted by blahblahblah at 10:48 PM on May 8, 2007
Thanks for the link to the MIT project. From Science, archaeology has been very important to the ideology behind the modern (again, post 1967) Israeli state.
posted by acro at 11:03 PM on May 8, 2007
posted by acro at 11:03 PM on May 8, 2007
This looks like, "I just saw a news article and wanted to post it, but I'm afraid that it'll be deleted if that's all I post. So I'll google for certain likely terms and dump every link I locate into the post as well, so the mods will leave me alone."
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 11:15 PM on May 8, 2007
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 11:15 PM on May 8, 2007
Post 1967, the period Alan Arian called the 'second Israeli Republic'
posted by acro at 11:18 PM on May 8, 2007
posted by acro at 11:18 PM on May 8, 2007
From Arian's book:While the identity issue seems resolved for most Israeli Jews, the system is faced with three crucial issues. The first is the meaning of a Jewish state; the second is the role of the State of Israel for Jews who do not live in Israel. The third is the relation to the state of non-Jews living in Israel. What does it mean to have a Jewish state? Is Israel a country of Jews or a country with Jewish content?
If there is a conversation about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, archaeology is as good as any a starting point... no? Establishing a national identity by 'proving' a mythology by the science of archaeology: it's a mix of the ancient and the modern, and I think seen in the American evolution debate, not to mention the broader Muslim world's struggle between what some call 'Islamist' politics and liberal democratic ideologies.
posted by acro at 11:33 PM on May 8, 2007
If there is a conversation about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, archaeology is as good as any a starting point... no? Establishing a national identity by 'proving' a mythology by the science of archaeology: it's a mix of the ancient and the modern, and I think seen in the American evolution debate, not to mention the broader Muslim world's struggle between what some call 'Islamist' politics and liberal democratic ideologies.
posted by acro at 11:33 PM on May 8, 2007
What, do you think those Arabs would have done something with that land as awesome as an archaeological dig? They'd probably plant farms or something. Utilitarianism, friends! The world is a better, more efficient place with native people being kicked off the land they were born on.
I continue to maintain they should have a single state called Canaan. Yay, Canaanites!
posted by Wataki at 11:42 PM on May 8, 2007
I continue to maintain they should have a single state called Canaan. Yay, Canaanites!
posted by Wataki at 11:42 PM on May 8, 2007
What, do you think those Arabs would have done something with that land as awesome as an archaeological dig? They'd probably plant farms or something.
What, sort of like those fancy Gaza greenhouses that are now being used for rocket attacks and scrap metal?
posted by Krrrlson at 12:00 AM on May 9, 2007
What, sort of like those fancy Gaza greenhouses that are now being used for rocket attacks and scrap metal?
posted by Krrrlson at 12:00 AM on May 9, 2007
Excavation on the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif has been controversial for some time. In 363, the Emperor Julian ordered that the foundations of the ruined temple be exposed and removed in order that the Temple might perhaps be rebuilt. In the construction trenches, however, there were reports of underground fireballs, which ultimately led to the abandonment of work at the site. Nothing new under the sun, as they say.
posted by hydatius at 12:23 AM on May 9, 2007
posted by hydatius at 12:23 AM on May 9, 2007
those fancy Gaza greenhouses
their land, they do what they want with it. I know it hurts, but it's theirs.
posted by matteo at 12:31 AM on May 9, 2007
their land, they do what they want with it. I know it hurts, but it's theirs.
posted by matteo at 12:31 AM on May 9, 2007
Control of the archaeological remains means control of the narrative, and legitimate debate:
"Bishop Hagop marched me to the Damascus Gate, past a picket of heavily armed Israeli conscripts, and over the road. There he stopped and asked me what I could see.posted by acro at 12:38 AM on May 9, 2007
"Well," I ventured, mystified. "A bus shelter?"
"Anything else?"
"A couple of manholes?"
"Exactly. A bus shelter and a set of manholes. But nothing else."
"No," I agreed. "So what?"
"That manhole is all that marks the site of what was once the greatest Armenian monastery in the Middle East," explained the bishop. "Beside it, over by that new filling station, were the monastic buildings of St Stephen's, the largest Byzantine monastery in Jerusalem."
Please keep up Steven. One link newsfilter already deleted.
posted by adamvasco at 1:03 AM on May 9, 2007
posted by adamvasco at 1:03 AM on May 9, 2007
Archaeology may not be the single most important factor in the establishment of israeli nationalism, but it certainly had a lot to do with it. The excavations at Masada were conducted with the goal of verifying the story that Jewish fighters held off the Romans there for as long as they could in a heroic last stand, even though the contemporary source on Masada does not mention a protracted battle. Stories about ancient Jews fighting valiantly against an enemy who surrounded them on all sides obviously had/have a lot of value, and archaeology is a good tool for connecting a people to such an (imagined) past. So blahblahblah, i think you may be being too dismissive.
posted by solobrus at 1:14 AM on May 9, 2007
posted by solobrus at 1:14 AM on May 9, 2007
Why did you make this post? Israel/Palestine threads need a lot of care in their presentation, lest things descend immediately into nastiness. From this schizophrenic core-dump, I can't even really tell what it is you're trying to say. It's as if you've wanted to post about astrophysics but have only discussed Time-Cube, the Raelians and Scientology. Good for a giggle, but minimally informative.
I'll just echo what people have said above: archaeology in Israel is extremely politicized, on both the right and the left, and from the Palestinian and Israeli sides. I posted last year about one, significantly more important excavation in the City of David. Eilat Mazar's dig, though it grabs fewer headlines, is arguably much more important in the long term, since it is being used, both practically (through expropriation of Palestinian land) and ideologically to strengthen Israeli control over territory in Arab east Jerusalem. On the other side, the small Palestinian archaeological establishment is equally invested in attempting to disprove the historical link between the Jewish people and the land of Israel.
But so what? Every discipline has its fringe elements. At the same time, there are legions of serious archaeologists, Israeli, Palestinan, European and American, who are attempting to broaden our knowledge of the material history of the region in an atmosphere free from overt bias or crass politicization. Unfortunately, these people never grab the quick headlines.
Good scholarship moves slowly, cautiously and through a process of continual disciplinary self-correction. A lot of this ideologically driven crap scholarship will flare out quickly and be cast on the rubbish heap in a decade. But in the meantime, it will serve it's real purpose, which is not to advance the frontiers of human knowledge, but to influence contemporary political debates. Congratulations, acro, for making yourself a small cog in that infernal machine.
posted by felix betachat at 1:22 AM on May 9, 2007 [2 favorites]
I'll just echo what people have said above: archaeology in Israel is extremely politicized, on both the right and the left, and from the Palestinian and Israeli sides. I posted last year about one, significantly more important excavation in the City of David. Eilat Mazar's dig, though it grabs fewer headlines, is arguably much more important in the long term, since it is being used, both practically (through expropriation of Palestinian land) and ideologically to strengthen Israeli control over territory in Arab east Jerusalem. On the other side, the small Palestinian archaeological establishment is equally invested in attempting to disprove the historical link between the Jewish people and the land of Israel.
But so what? Every discipline has its fringe elements. At the same time, there are legions of serious archaeologists, Israeli, Palestinan, European and American, who are attempting to broaden our knowledge of the material history of the region in an atmosphere free from overt bias or crass politicization. Unfortunately, these people never grab the quick headlines.
Good scholarship moves slowly, cautiously and through a process of continual disciplinary self-correction. A lot of this ideologically driven crap scholarship will flare out quickly and be cast on the rubbish heap in a decade. But in the meantime, it will serve it's real purpose, which is not to advance the frontiers of human knowledge, but to influence contemporary political debates. Congratulations, acro, for making yourself a small cog in that infernal machine.
posted by felix betachat at 1:22 AM on May 9, 2007 [2 favorites]
By the way, for anybody seriously interested in the intersection between archaeology and the formation of the Israeli state, I recommend Raz Kletter's excellent book: Just Past? The Making of Israeli Archaeology.
posted by felix betachat at 1:28 AM on May 9, 2007
posted by felix betachat at 1:28 AM on May 9, 2007
fb, thanks for the link.
Timecube. Right. OK. Maybe this is what you're talking about.
posted by acro at 1:59 AM on May 9, 2007
Timecube. Right. OK. Maybe this is what you're talking about.
posted by acro at 1:59 AM on May 9, 2007
"Mearsheimer and Walt are both better academics than that report reflects..."
posted by acro at 2:11 AM on May 9, 2007
posted by acro at 2:11 AM on May 9, 2007
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posted by acro at 9:32 PM on May 8, 2007