Sahar told a visitor she was from the Dora district of Baghdad but had left “because of the troubles.” Now, she said she would leave the club with him for $200.
May 29, 2007 9:59 PM Subscribe
Back home in Iraq, Umm Hiba’s daughter was a devout schoolgirl, modest in her dress and serious about her studies. Hiba, who is now 16, wore the hijab, or Islamic head scarf, and rose early each day to say the dawn prayer before classes.On 9/11, 15 Saudi Arabian "tourists" came to America to get 72 virgins, by way of the Pentagon, the Twin Towers, and religious "martyrdom". In response, America attacked Iraq. One consequence: now Saudi sex-tourists need only make a day trip to neighboring Syria, where teenaged Iraqi prostitutes are pimped out by their mothers and aunts. An Iraqi prostitute explains why: "If they go back to Iraq they’ll be slaughtered, and this is the only work available."
This post was deleted for the following reason: outragefilter -- jessamyn
Where has there ever been a place where there was no prostitution?
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 10:21 PM on May 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 10:21 PM on May 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
Typically, the Saudi customers prefer the girls with biggest bombs.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:21 PM on May 29, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:21 PM on May 29, 2007
I don't think this will go well. Let me drop another bomb, a la Steven's method - maybe this means there'll be fewer Saudis hanging out at the clubs in Morocco. [goes off to get popcorn]
posted by Liosliath at 10:26 PM on May 29, 2007
posted by Liosliath at 10:26 PM on May 29, 2007
You could have saved yourself so much typing by referring directly to your blog, LOLMUSLIMS, THE BLOGGERING.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 10:28 PM on May 29, 2007
posted by thehmsbeagle at 10:28 PM on May 29, 2007
now Saudi sex-tourists need only make a day trip to neighboring Syria
Well, that's always been the case. When I was in Syria not long ago, it was crawling with Russian prostitutes.
To be honest, orthoggo, trying to squeeze terrorists/sex tourists & celestial virgins/whores into some sort of tenuous parallel revolving around 9/11 & iraq was clumsy at best, if not completely trivialising both issues.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:31 PM on May 29, 2007
Well, that's always been the case. When I was in Syria not long ago, it was crawling with Russian prostitutes.
To be honest, orthoggo, trying to squeeze terrorists/sex tourists & celestial virgins/whores into some sort of tenuous parallel revolving around 9/11 & iraq was clumsy at best, if not completely trivialising both issues.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:31 PM on May 29, 2007
UbuRoivas writes "To be honest, orthoggo, trying to squeeze terrorists/sex tourists & celestial virgins/whores into some sort of tenuous parallel "
Actually, I don't think so. Old men everywhere use sex-repressing patriarchal religion as an instrument of control; by suppressing sex, one gets angry frustrated young men, whose anger can be directed to war. War, in its earliest manifestation, was simply an excuse for rape. (Read the Bible, where God commands the Israelites to rape the women of conquered trbies and Kng David uses war to take Uriah's wife, or recall Rome's founding in Rape of the Sabine Women, or Achilles's anger in the Illiad when Agamemnon steals his literal war trophy, the enslaved woman Briseis.)
Religiously repressed men find their outlet in war (or terrorism), where normal societal constraints are loosened; war leads to subjugation of women and the implicit allowing of that, so long as its in the war zone, outside "normal" society and its normal constraints.
Nothing "tenuous" about it. It's an age-old pattern, known to patriarchs everywhere.
posted by orthogonality at 10:51 PM on May 29, 2007
Actually, I don't think so. Old men everywhere use sex-repressing patriarchal religion as an instrument of control; by suppressing sex, one gets angry frustrated young men, whose anger can be directed to war. War, in its earliest manifestation, was simply an excuse for rape. (Read the Bible, where God commands the Israelites to rape the women of conquered trbies and Kng David uses war to take Uriah's wife, or recall Rome's founding in Rape of the Sabine Women, or Achilles's anger in the Illiad when Agamemnon steals his literal war trophy, the enslaved woman Briseis.)
Religiously repressed men find their outlet in war (or terrorism), where normal societal constraints are loosened; war leads to subjugation of women and the implicit allowing of that, so long as its in the war zone, outside "normal" society and its normal constraints.
Nothing "tenuous" about it. It's an age-old pattern, known to patriarchs everywhere.
posted by orthogonality at 10:51 PM on May 29, 2007
Where has there ever been a place where there was no prostitution?
I find this comment particularly callous.
About 10,000 Iraqis cross into Syria every month, swelling their ranks to 1.4 million in their host country.
While the Syrian government tolerates their presence, these Iraqis cannot legally work in Syria, so how else are people going to make ends meet?
What a sick situation. Thank you GW. Thank you Tony Blair.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:59 PM on May 29, 2007
I find this comment particularly callous.
About 10,000 Iraqis cross into Syria every month, swelling their ranks to 1.4 million in their host country.
While the Syrian government tolerates their presence, these Iraqis cannot legally work in Syria, so how else are people going to make ends meet?
What a sick situation. Thank you GW. Thank you Tony Blair.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:59 PM on May 29, 2007
orthogonality: Fair enough up to a point. Women have traditionally been one of the spoils of war, and it could be argued that repressed sexuality can be sublimated into religious or patriotic zeal, which can be enlisted in the cause of war.
Where your argument falls over is in the implicit assumption that prostitutes weren't available to the Saudis prior to 9/11 & Iraq. I can verify that in 2001 the streets of Aleppo & Damascus were crawling with Russian working girls.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:12 PM on May 29, 2007
Where your argument falls over is in the implicit assumption that prostitutes weren't available to the Saudis prior to 9/11 & Iraq. I can verify that in 2001 the streets of Aleppo & Damascus were crawling with Russian working girls.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:12 PM on May 29, 2007
Oh, Steven. Let's try this one:
"Terrorism has always existed in every society. Why was 9/11 such a big deal?"
posted by bardic at 11:12 PM on May 29, 2007 [5 favorites]
"Terrorism has always existed in every society. Why was 9/11 such a big deal?"
posted by bardic at 11:12 PM on May 29, 2007 [5 favorites]
bardic - that's piss-easy: because it happened in america.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:21 PM on May 29, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:21 PM on May 29, 2007 [2 favorites]
This is a genuine question, not a snark: In the article, what was the connection between 9/11 and these prostitutes? Was there one? If so I probably overlooked it.
However, if there is no such connection in the article, this comes off as more than a little Axe-Grindy.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 11:23 PM on May 29, 2007
However, if there is no such connection in the article, this comes off as more than a little Axe-Grindy.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 11:23 PM on May 29, 2007
"War has always existed in every society. Why was Iraq such a big deal?"
posted by Krrrlson at 11:27 PM on May 29, 2007
posted by Krrrlson at 11:27 PM on May 29, 2007
There's never been a war in Australia. We just get enlisted to fight our imperial masters' wars.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:31 PM on May 29, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:31 PM on May 29, 2007
Bardic, the only problem with your rephrasing is that yours is false.
I believe you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying that we should ignore the problem of involuntary prostitution. I'm saying that I'm tired of people who only get outraged by issues like this if they can figure out a way to blame it on America.
There are tens of thousands of unwilling prostitutes in the world. Many of them are little better than slaves, sold by their parents into bondage. Life expectancy is poor; life before they're dead is hellish.
Bangkok is notorious for that kind of thing.
But a more recent and far more egregious example of that has been UN Peacekeepers in parts of Africa. The soldiers are responsible for distributing food aid to refugees there, and they've been forcing young women and girls to have sex with them in exchange for food.
But America can't plausibly be blamed for most of this.
Everywhere there's poverty, everywhere there are refugees, everywhere there's ever been a war, there have been prostitutes. Most of them did it because they had no other way to stay alive. Thus has it always been, and thus shall it always be. It's one more aspect of the horror of war.
This war is no different. Why, exactly, is anyone surprised by this?
This sounds more like "I'm shocked, SHOCKED, to discover that gambling is going on here." Oh, look! America is somewhere near a bad thing that's happening! Everyone get upset and scream about it!
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 11:31 PM on May 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
I believe you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying that we should ignore the problem of involuntary prostitution. I'm saying that I'm tired of people who only get outraged by issues like this if they can figure out a way to blame it on America.
There are tens of thousands of unwilling prostitutes in the world. Many of them are little better than slaves, sold by their parents into bondage. Life expectancy is poor; life before they're dead is hellish.
Bangkok is notorious for that kind of thing.
But a more recent and far more egregious example of that has been UN Peacekeepers in parts of Africa. The soldiers are responsible for distributing food aid to refugees there, and they've been forcing young women and girls to have sex with them in exchange for food.
But America can't plausibly be blamed for most of this.
Everywhere there's poverty, everywhere there are refugees, everywhere there's ever been a war, there have been prostitutes. Most of them did it because they had no other way to stay alive. Thus has it always been, and thus shall it always be. It's one more aspect of the horror of war.
This war is no different. Why, exactly, is anyone surprised by this?
This sounds more like "I'm shocked, SHOCKED, to discover that gambling is going on here." Oh, look! America is somewhere near a bad thing that's happening! Everyone get upset and scream about it!
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 11:31 PM on May 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
UbuRoivas writes "Where your argument falls over is in the implicit assumption that prostitutes weren't available to the Saudis prior to 9/11 & Iraq. I can verify that in 2001 the streets of Aleppo & Damascus were crawling with Russian working girls."
A fair point. Maybe it's not the case for Saudis, but surely in the US, there's a special thrill about "the girl next door": note the popularity of Playboy and "Girls Gone Wild", the "nice girl" who's "gone bad", the juxtaposition of Madonna and Whore. It's a guess on my part, but do you think some Saudis find it more thrilling, for a taste of forbidden fruit, to get a 16 year old Muslim girl who until a few years ago wore a hijab and went to religious school, than Western women they think are inherently "sinful" and depraved?
(I also recall a friend's father, an "self-hating" German Jew who fled Nazi Germany as a boy. (His family was so German, so assimilated, having served in the Kaiser's army, etc., that the uncle preferred death in the camps to leaving his homeland, even as he facilitated the flight of his relatives.) That boy after the war became as a young man a US administrator in Occupied Germany, and found a special thrill in his easy sexual access to German women afforded him by the ruined Germany economy, and his American wages and cigarettes.)
posted by orthogonality at 11:34 PM on May 29, 2007
A fair point. Maybe it's not the case for Saudis, but surely in the US, there's a special thrill about "the girl next door": note the popularity of Playboy and "Girls Gone Wild", the "nice girl" who's "gone bad", the juxtaposition of Madonna and Whore. It's a guess on my part, but do you think some Saudis find it more thrilling, for a taste of forbidden fruit, to get a 16 year old Muslim girl who until a few years ago wore a hijab and went to religious school, than Western women they think are inherently "sinful" and depraved?
(I also recall a friend's father, an "self-hating" German Jew who fled Nazi Germany as a boy. (His family was so German, so assimilated, having served in the Kaiser's army, etc., that the uncle preferred death in the camps to leaving his homeland, even as he facilitated the flight of his relatives.) That boy after the war became as a young man a US administrator in Occupied Germany, and found a special thrill in his easy sexual access to German women afforded him by the ruined Germany economy, and his American wages and cigarettes.)
posted by orthogonality at 11:34 PM on May 29, 2007
"Actually, I don't think so."
Of course not. But to demonstrate that, you have to have something better than the dorm-room narrative of why, like, sex and war are the same thing, y'know.
posted by klangklangston at 11:43 PM on May 29, 2007
Of course not. But to demonstrate that, you have to have something better than the dorm-room narrative of why, like, sex and war are the same thing, y'know.
posted by klangklangston at 11:43 PM on May 29, 2007
Iraq beginning to export fighters to nearby countries - and beyond
posted by homunculus at 11:43 PM on May 29, 2007
posted by homunculus at 11:43 PM on May 29, 2007
Steven C. Den Beste writes "I'm saying that I'm tired of people who only get outraged by issues like this if they can figure out a way to blame it on America."
Steven, call me a jingoist if yiu must, but as an American, I do hold America to a higher standard than the rest of the world.
Steven C. Den Beste continues "Oh, look! America is somewhere near a bad thing that's happening!"
American policy and American ineptness caused this. The policy of going to war, and the ineptness of believing it would be an easy, short, low-cost war. I mean, look, I'll accept that one consequence of this war is that Saddam is dead and his rape rooms closed, and those are great things. But you can't trumpet the profits of the war without totally the balance sheet. America isn't just "somewhere near a bad thing" -- we're the cause of the bad thing.
Now maybe you'll still argue that this war was, on balance, a good thing. That's your right. But you can't be intellectually honest if you claim the good fruits of this war and then pretend that the bad didn't also originate in what we as a nation have done. Or that no one could predict that a prolonged civil war has disastrous consequences for a population, most especially for the most vulnerable, women and children. Come on, Steven, you're a student of history: what did you expect war would bring? Democracy and women's rights?
If you're gonna play the jaded cynicism of realpolitik -- Steven C. Den Beste writes "Where has there ever been a place where there was no prostitution?" -- be honest and apply that to same cynicism to "what happens when we destabilize the despotic strongman whose tyrannical boot prevented internecine sectarian and tribal warfare among his subjugated people?"
posted by orthogonality at 11:53 PM on May 29, 2007 [4 favorites]
Steven, call me a jingoist if yiu must, but as an American, I do hold America to a higher standard than the rest of the world.
Steven C. Den Beste continues "Oh, look! America is somewhere near a bad thing that's happening!"
American policy and American ineptness caused this. The policy of going to war, and the ineptness of believing it would be an easy, short, low-cost war. I mean, look, I'll accept that one consequence of this war is that Saddam is dead and his rape rooms closed, and those are great things. But you can't trumpet the profits of the war without totally the balance sheet. America isn't just "somewhere near a bad thing" -- we're the cause of the bad thing.
Now maybe you'll still argue that this war was, on balance, a good thing. That's your right. But you can't be intellectually honest if you claim the good fruits of this war and then pretend that the bad didn't also originate in what we as a nation have done. Or that no one could predict that a prolonged civil war has disastrous consequences for a population, most especially for the most vulnerable, women and children. Come on, Steven, you're a student of history: what did you expect war would bring? Democracy and women's rights?
If you're gonna play the jaded cynicism of realpolitik -- Steven C. Den Beste writes "Where has there ever been a place where there was no prostitution?" -- be honest and apply that to same cynicism to "what happens when we destabilize the despotic strongman whose tyrannical boot prevented internecine sectarian and tribal warfare among his subjugated people?"
posted by orthogonality at 11:53 PM on May 29, 2007 [4 favorites]
Oh, look! America is somewhere near a bad thing that's happening!
Why must you destroy your own credibility so, when you were halfway through a good argument?
Yes, drat that coincidental proximity.
posted by dreamsign at 11:57 PM on May 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
Why must you destroy your own credibility so, when you were halfway through a good argument?
Yes, drat that coincidental proximity.
posted by dreamsign at 11:57 PM on May 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
orthogonality: yes, there could be a kink factor in Saudis using good-turned-bad Muslim girls, but that doesn't mean that being supposedly deprived of them caused the Magnificent 19 to commit the terror attacks in America.
SCDB: sure, there are refugees & prostitutes all over the place. This might be more relevant to Americans (Metafilter's majority member base, I assume) than other situations because Iraq just happens to be a war that America pushed so hard to wage. It seems appropriate for Americans to understand the consequences of their (leaders') choices.
Burhanistan: oversimplification, indeed. You also assume that these trade agreements you speak of are either desired or good, or would not have come about anyway, as long as the countries are producing goodies that the other countries are wanting or needing.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:01 AM on May 30, 2007
SCDB: sure, there are refugees & prostitutes all over the place. This might be more relevant to Americans (Metafilter's majority member base, I assume) than other situations because Iraq just happens to be a war that America pushed so hard to wage. It seems appropriate for Americans to understand the consequences of their (leaders') choices.
Burhanistan: oversimplification, indeed. You also assume that these trade agreements you speak of are either desired or good, or would not have come about anyway, as long as the countries are producing goodies that the other countries are wanting or needing.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:01 AM on May 30, 2007
>But America can't plausibly be blamed for most of this.
The Iraq mess is most definitely our fault. We decided to start a war with Iraq even though they had nothing to do with 9/11 or WMDs.
>everywhere there's ever been a war, there have been prostitutes. Most of them did it because they had no other way to stay alive. Thus has it always been, and thus shall it always be. It's one more aspect of the horror of war.
By that line of reasoning, we can be blamed for this because we started a war, with the inevitable horrors you listed above.
This is all the more galling because, under Saddam's comparatively secular rule, Iraqi women had some of the best prospects in the region. We've taken that away from them by removing Saddam and plunging the region into unchecked religious sectarian violence. Saddam was an evil man, but our ill-concieved methods of removing him have done no good for the Iraqi people.
>Why, exactly, is anyone surprised by this?
Hey, no one here has said they were "surprised" or shocked except you. Besides, world-weary jaded apathy is not a license to dodge responsibility.
/ whether or not this is a good FPP is another matter.
posted by PsychoKick at 12:07 AM on May 30, 2007 [3 favorites]
The Iraq mess is most definitely our fault. We decided to start a war with Iraq even though they had nothing to do with 9/11 or WMDs.
>everywhere there's ever been a war, there have been prostitutes. Most of them did it because they had no other way to stay alive. Thus has it always been, and thus shall it always be. It's one more aspect of the horror of war.
By that line of reasoning, we can be blamed for this because we started a war, with the inevitable horrors you listed above.
This is all the more galling because, under Saddam's comparatively secular rule, Iraqi women had some of the best prospects in the region. We've taken that away from them by removing Saddam and plunging the region into unchecked religious sectarian violence. Saddam was an evil man, but our ill-concieved methods of removing him have done no good for the Iraqi people.
>Why, exactly, is anyone surprised by this?
Hey, no one here has said they were "surprised" or shocked except you. Besides, world-weary jaded apathy is not a license to dodge responsibility.
/ whether or not this is a good FPP is another matter.
posted by PsychoKick at 12:07 AM on May 30, 2007 [3 favorites]
The larger point is this -- the American occupation of Iraq has made much of the Iraqi populace long for the days of Saddam's much reviled dictatorship.
You do realize that that's a bit of a pickle we've created with our dimwitted foreign policy, don't you Steven?
posted by bardic at 12:07 AM on May 30, 2007 [2 favorites]
You do realize that that's a bit of a pickle we've created with our dimwitted foreign policy, don't you Steven?
posted by bardic at 12:07 AM on May 30, 2007 [2 favorites]
Orthogonality: Steven, call me a jingoist if yiu must, but as an American, I do hold America to a higher standard than the rest of the world.
In other words, what you're saying is that there are things that you think are perfectly acceptable when they're done by anyone who isn't an American. Those things are evil and despicable -- but only when Americans do them.
Wrong. Hold America to high standards. That part's fine. But hold everyone else to the same standards. And target your loudest criticism at those who do the worst things.
To do otherwise is not jingoism, but hypocrisy. If something is wrong, it's wrong no matter who does it.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:13 AM on May 30, 2007
In other words, what you're saying is that there are things that you think are perfectly acceptable when they're done by anyone who isn't an American. Those things are evil and despicable -- but only when Americans do them.
Wrong. Hold America to high standards. That part's fine. But hold everyone else to the same standards. And target your loudest criticism at those who do the worst things.
To do otherwise is not jingoism, but hypocrisy. If something is wrong, it's wrong no matter who does it.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:13 AM on May 30, 2007
Wrong. Hold America to high standards. That part's fine. But hold everyone else to the same standards. And target your loudest criticism at those who do the worst things.
To do otherwise is not jingoism, but hypocrisy. If something is wrong, it's wrong no matter who does it.
Like torture & extrajudicial kidnappings & incarceration?
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:17 AM on May 30, 2007 [3 favorites]
To do otherwise is not jingoism, but hypocrisy. If something is wrong, it's wrong no matter who does it.
Like torture & extrajudicial kidnappings & incarceration?
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:17 AM on May 30, 2007 [3 favorites]
UbuRoivas: Like torture & extrajudicial kidnappings & incarceration?
You betcha. That's a perfect example.
[And this will be my last post on this thread.]
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:21 AM on May 30, 2007
You betcha. That's a perfect example.
[And this will be my last post on this thread.]
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:21 AM on May 30, 2007
And target your loudest criticism at those who do the worst things.
If one believes that great power entails great responsibility, then it can be perfectly rational to direct the loudest criticism at America, arguably the world's sole superpower. Though they both be wrong, abuse of great power is worse than abuse of little power.
posted by PsychoKick at 12:22 AM on May 30, 2007
If one believes that great power entails great responsibility, then it can be perfectly rational to direct the loudest criticism at America, arguably the world's sole superpower. Though they both be wrong, abuse of great power is worse than abuse of little power.
posted by PsychoKick at 12:22 AM on May 30, 2007
Steven Concern Troll Den Beste.
posted by dhartung at 12:24 AM on May 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by dhartung at 12:24 AM on May 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
Steven, it's considered good form to hold one's own kin and countrymen to a higher ethical standard. It's called "not being a hypocrite." And it's also closely related to: "taking responsibility for the things you've done." Your neocon sophistry aside, these things still matter to a lot of people.
posted by felix betachat at 12:25 AM on May 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by felix betachat at 12:25 AM on May 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
ROFLMAO!
An article in the Daily Terror, from Fox News?
For those who don't know their Aussie papers, the Daily Terror is a Murdoch mouthpiece, full of shiteful Fox-type journalism that doesn't even pretend to hide its bias.
On Murdoch, Iraq & the Daily Terror.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:29 AM on May 30, 2007
An article in the Daily Terror, from Fox News?
For those who don't know their Aussie papers, the Daily Terror is a Murdoch mouthpiece, full of shiteful Fox-type journalism that doesn't even pretend to hide its bias.
On Murdoch, Iraq & the Daily Terror.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:29 AM on May 30, 2007
(that was in response to SCDB's links, only the latter of which worked for me)
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:30 AM on May 30, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:30 AM on May 30, 2007
But America can't plausibly be blamed for most of this.
Are you fucking kidding?
The sole reason this kid has to prostitute is because Americans decided to invade Iraq. No invasion = no way she'd be in Syria being raped.
Idiot.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:17 AM on May 30, 2007
Are you fucking kidding?
The sole reason this kid has to prostitute is because Americans decided to invade Iraq. No invasion = no way she'd be in Syria being raped.
Idiot.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:17 AM on May 30, 2007
(didn't you notice? he's gone home & taken his ball with him)
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:49 AM on May 30, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:49 AM on May 30, 2007
Steven C. Den Beste writes "Where has there ever been a place where there was no prostitution?"
Las Vegas, before the "developement" (read idiot industry)
posted by elpapacito at 2:53 AM on May 30, 2007
Las Vegas, before the "developement" (read idiot industry)
posted by elpapacito at 2:53 AM on May 30, 2007
Steven, realizing he is losing an argument to most of metafilter, flees in haste. Good move.
posted by tehloki at 3:57 AM on May 30, 2007
posted by tehloki at 3:57 AM on May 30, 2007
The 101st Fighting Keyboarders can't even finish a real verbal fight.
Good thing Mr. Den Beste isn't on the ground in Iraq, no?
posted by Malor at 4:04 AM on May 30, 2007
Good thing Mr. Den Beste isn't on the ground in Iraq, no?
posted by Malor at 4:04 AM on May 30, 2007
To be honest, orthoggo, trying to squeeze terrorists/sex tourists & celestial virgins/whores into some sort of tenuous parallel revolving around 9/11 & iraq was clumsy at best, if not completely trivializing both issues.
I agree. Seriously fucked up post man. Obviously there are plenty of Christian prostitutes and plenty Christian fundies who would burn 'em at the stake.
posted by delmoi at 4:32 AM on May 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
I agree. Seriously fucked up post man. Obviously there are plenty of Christian prostitutes and plenty Christian fundies who would burn 'em at the stake.
We can't know, of course, if Hiba's grandfather would have, in better days, sanctioned stoning Hiba to death in an honor killing for an illicit romance.WTF is this? You're essentially suggesting the guy is a brutal blood thirsty savage simply because of his religion.
But clearly, in this culture women and their sexuality are a commodity.Well, either that or perhaps they don't all have the exact same "culture". I mean are you trying to say it's somehow worse for a Muslim to be a prostitute then, say, a Thai teenager? This FPP is just dripping with incredibly offensive "islamophobia". (which is a word that irritates me, but I think it's the most appropriate here)
posted by delmoi at 4:32 AM on May 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
That's a lot of build up for a single link post. Why not just post "Teenage Iraqi prostitutes are pimped out by their mothers and aunts in Syria"?
And all the not so subtle Muslim bashing was a nice touch.
posted by chunking express at 5:57 AM on May 30, 2007
And all the not so subtle Muslim bashing was a nice touch.
posted by chunking express at 5:57 AM on May 30, 2007
Yes, women are exploited around the world. It's awful. It even happens in Damascus. One might expect to find the "world's oldest profession" in the "world's oldest city" however. To those that know even a little about the Arab world, Damascus is a far different place than, say, Jeddah.
Syria, as a secular state, does not enforce Wahabist versions of Islamic law. The country is also a mixture of Shia, Sunni, Druze and Christian and it is just as common to see a woman's bare midriff as a woman in a full, black chador. I actually saw three teenaged girls walking hand-in-hand, giggling down the street one day coming from school; one in full Western, midriff bearing, Brittany style clothing complete with make-up overkill, one in modest, but stylish muslim dress with a decorative silk scarf for a hejab and one in a head-to-toe black sack that exposed nothing and made her look like a Jawa from Star Wars. Many Syrian fathers I spoke with hoped that their daughters would not choose to wear a hejab as their mother had when they hit puberty, though they would respect their daughter's decision.
Incidentally, the article makes me wonder, why is the club serving alcohol and organ meat? Ah, yes, it's in Maraba, in the heavily Christian part of Syria. A town named for the ancient Nestorian rulers that translated ancient Greek works into Arabic, and therby saved the knowledge from being lost to time. The club is a Christian club that appears to be frequented by Muslim men if we can draw that conclusion from Saudi licence plates anyway.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:05 AM on May 30, 2007
Syria, as a secular state, does not enforce Wahabist versions of Islamic law. The country is also a mixture of Shia, Sunni, Druze and Christian and it is just as common to see a woman's bare midriff as a woman in a full, black chador. I actually saw three teenaged girls walking hand-in-hand, giggling down the street one day coming from school; one in full Western, midriff bearing, Brittany style clothing complete with make-up overkill, one in modest, but stylish muslim dress with a decorative silk scarf for a hejab and one in a head-to-toe black sack that exposed nothing and made her look like a Jawa from Star Wars. Many Syrian fathers I spoke with hoped that their daughters would not choose to wear a hejab as their mother had when they hit puberty, though they would respect their daughter's decision.
Incidentally, the article makes me wonder, why is the club serving alcohol and organ meat? Ah, yes, it's in Maraba, in the heavily Christian part of Syria. A town named for the ancient Nestorian rulers that translated ancient Greek works into Arabic, and therby saved the knowledge from being lost to time. The club is a Christian club that appears to be frequented by Muslim men if we can draw that conclusion from Saudi licence plates anyway.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:05 AM on May 30, 2007
I agree with Burhanistan (and others): the attempt to cram virgins and Saudi Arabia into an otherwise good post is seriously misguided. Oh well, such is life on MeFi.
I just read this last night (in Orlando Figes's excellent A People's Tragedy; Gorky is writing to his wife Ekaterina in November 1915):
posted by languagehat at 6:25 AM on May 30, 2007 [2 favorites]
I just read this last night (in Orlando Figes's excellent A People's Tragedy; Gorky is writing to his wife Ekaterina in November 1915):
We will soon have a famine. I advise you to buy ten pounds of bread and hide it. In the suburbs of Petrograd you can see well-dressed women begging on the streets. It is very cold. People have nothing to burn in their stoves. Here and there, at night, they tear down the wooden fences. What has happened to the Twentieth Century! What has happened to Civilization! The number of child prostitutes is shocking. On your way somewhere at night you see them shuffling along the sidewalks, just like cockroaches, blue with cold and hungry. Last Tuesday I talked to one of them. I put some money into her hand and hurried away, in tears, in such a state of sadness that I felt like banging my head against a wall. Oh, to hell with it all, how hard it has become to live.What has happened to the Twenty-First Century! What has happened to Civilization!
posted by languagehat at 6:25 AM on May 30, 2007 [2 favorites]
Yeah, the Muslim-bashing's a bit much. Can't y'all just bash Christians as is the norm on MeFi? :o)
This is the latest in a long string of sad and horrific unintended consequences, and what bugs me is, the architects of the triggering events are probably shielded from knowing what they've ultimately perpetrated. When folks are fleeing a country or nostalgic for the good old days of when it was a brutally repressive police state, that's FUBAR.
posted by pax digita at 6:39 AM on May 30, 2007
This is the latest in a long string of sad and horrific unintended consequences, and what bugs me is, the architects of the triggering events are probably shielded from knowing what they've ultimately perpetrated. When folks are fleeing a country or nostalgic for the good old days of when it was a brutally repressive police state, that's FUBAR.
posted by pax digita at 6:39 AM on May 30, 2007
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But clearly, in this culture women and their sexuality are a commodity. In some circumstances, honor killing protects a family's reputation for not marketing a commodity that's become "damaged goods". In less favorable circumstances, instead of selling a daughter's virginity for a profitable marriage, apparently it's acceptable to to rent her out piecemeal.
Well, if we couldn't export Democracy, at least capitalism is flourishing. Mission Accomplished?
posted by orthogonality at 10:02 PM on May 29, 2007 [5 favorites]