Be Wary, very very wary.
February 4, 2009 11:24 PM Subscribe
If you've ever thought of coming to India--you can forget the idea of "kissing in public"--even if it is your wife. Look at what happened to "Richard Gere", even though he was just kissing a local starlet. And we're supposed to be a country that more than "loves" this sort of thing. Also, there was this "guy" who went kind of overboard....
This post was deleted for the following reason: this is a mix of editorializing, bad formatting and the sort of "omg other cultures!" post that goes badly on MetaFilter. -- jessamyn
Yes, PDA (Public Displays of Affection) are very much frowned upon.
Male friends can - and do - saunter down the road hand in hand, or with arms around each others' shoulders or waists, but between even married couples, it's strictly no touching. Certainly, no kissing - something that has been carried across to Bollywood, where (with very few exceptions) kisses are only hinted at.
Salman Rushdie parodied this wonderfully in Midnight's Children, where a couple indulged in a virtual kiss, by sipping from a glass from the same spot on the rim.
But back to PDAs...I was amazed to see couples canoodling in Safdarjang's Tomb in Delhi. Apparently, this was a kind of makeout spot. They'd be sprawled about on the lawn or leaning against trees, with the womens' shawls discreetly wrapped around them. It reminded me a little of slugs mating.
Elsewhere, the police have been known to take potshots from their rifles at such atrocious behaviour. I forget where that happened; maybe Lucknow.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:33 AM on February 5, 2009
Male friends can - and do - saunter down the road hand in hand, or with arms around each others' shoulders or waists, but between even married couples, it's strictly no touching. Certainly, no kissing - something that has been carried across to Bollywood, where (with very few exceptions) kisses are only hinted at.
Salman Rushdie parodied this wonderfully in Midnight's Children, where a couple indulged in a virtual kiss, by sipping from a glass from the same spot on the rim.
But back to PDAs...I was amazed to see couples canoodling in Safdarjang's Tomb in Delhi. Apparently, this was a kind of makeout spot. They'd be sprawled about on the lawn or leaning against trees, with the womens' shawls discreetly wrapped around them. It reminded me a little of slugs mating.
Elsewhere, the police have been known to take potshots from their rifles at such atrocious behaviour. I forget where that happened; maybe Lucknow.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:33 AM on February 5, 2009
Are we talking about the so-called "Richard Gere" or the actual Richard Gere?
Richard Gere is a Buddhist. He knows there is no "actual" Richard Gere.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:34 AM on February 5, 2009 [13 favorites]
Richard Gere is a Buddhist. He knows there is no "actual" Richard Gere.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:34 AM on February 5, 2009 [13 favorites]
A new take on arranged marriages:
"Those guys and girls exhibiting public display of affection on Valentine’s Day, beware. At a meeting on Wednesday, chaired by Sri Rama Sene leader Pramod Mutalik, Sene decided to arrange marriage between dating couples. For that, it has formed five teams. They will roam around Bangalore with a video camera and turmeric stub. If they find young couples dating, they will force them to wed on the spot. “The couples will be taken to a sub-registrar’s office to solemnise the marriage,’’ T S Vasanth Kumar Bhavani, Sene’s Bangalore city president, told TOI."
posted by Gyan at 12:47 AM on February 5, 2009
"Those guys and girls exhibiting public display of affection on Valentine’s Day, beware. At a meeting on Wednesday, chaired by Sri Rama Sene leader Pramod Mutalik, Sene decided to arrange marriage between dating couples. For that, it has formed five teams. They will roam around Bangalore with a video camera and turmeric stub. If they find young couples dating, they will force them to wed on the spot. “The couples will be taken to a sub-registrar’s office to solemnise the marriage,’’ T S Vasanth Kumar Bhavani, Sene’s Bangalore city president, told TOI."
posted by Gyan at 12:47 AM on February 5, 2009
How am I supposed to interpret those quotation marks?
My fault. I had written the post on Google and saved it, and totally forgot to remove the quotation mars when I put it here.
I was waiting for the time-laps of twenty-four hours to finish before I made the post.
Again, my fault--sorry!
posted by hadjiboy at 1:06 AM on February 5, 2009
My fault. I had written the post on Google and saved it, and totally forgot to remove the quotation mars when I put it here.
I was waiting for the time-laps of twenty-four hours to finish before I made the post.
Again, my fault--sorry!
posted by hadjiboy at 1:06 AM on February 5, 2009
marks--dammit!
Will I ever get the hang of this...
Also want to apologize to anyone I might have offended in yesterday's Tamil Tigers post; I know more than my share of Tamilians, and just didn't like the vibe of the reactions I was getting, but that was my fault too.
What can I say--I'm recovering, I think.
posted by hadjiboy at 1:14 AM on February 5, 2009
Will I ever get the hang of this...
Also want to apologize to anyone I might have offended in yesterday's Tamil Tigers post; I know more than my share of Tamilians, and just didn't like the vibe of the reactions I was getting, but that was my fault too.
What can I say--I'm recovering, I think.
posted by hadjiboy at 1:14 AM on February 5, 2009
"Richard Gere" is an anagram of RICH RED RAGE.
The letters don't lie. Kissing in public? Immoral and unscientific.
posted by twoleftfeet at 1:42 AM on February 5, 2009
The letters don't lie. Kissing in public? Immoral and unscientific.
posted by twoleftfeet at 1:42 AM on February 5, 2009
The guy, I think, was an Indian, or worked in India, where he did a show there.
posted by hadjiboy at 1:46 AM on February 5, 2009
posted by hadjiboy at 1:46 AM on February 5, 2009
How did kissing become an obscene act in India? Generally one would associate obscenity with things that are viscerally disgusting; goatse, tubgirl, two girls one cup, sure. Those things might make the unprepared viewer feeling disgusted. Kissing though? What's so obscene about affection, other than perhaps jealousy on the part of the viewer?
posted by mullingitover at 2:28 AM on February 5, 2009
posted by mullingitover at 2:28 AM on February 5, 2009
Your favorite cultural taboo sucks.
posted by Richard Daly at 2:33 AM on February 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Richard Daly at 2:33 AM on February 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
I grew up with a bunch of first-generation Indians, and was pretty shocked at their parents attitude towards what we tend to think of as very casual affection. I mean, they're worse than Catholics, which is pretty impressive. Not, like, 15th century Catholics mind you. But still.
he police have been known to take potshots from their rifles at such atrocious behaviour
They only get away with this because, sadly, these views are shared by a lot of people.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:39 AM on February 5, 2009
he police have been known to take potshots from their rifles at such atrocious behaviour
They only get away with this because, sadly, these views are shared by a lot of people.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:39 AM on February 5, 2009
Mental note: Don't kiss Richard Gere in India.
Am thinking that one wont be a problem for me.
posted by asok at 4:05 AM on February 5, 2009
Am thinking that one wont be a problem for me.
posted by asok at 4:05 AM on February 5, 2009
Don't kiss Richard Gere in India.
and especially not in Cumbum.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:23 AM on February 5, 2009
and especially not in Cumbum.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:23 AM on February 5, 2009
Clearly Indians are very much against sexual realtions. That's why there are so few of them.
posted by Pollomacho at 4:32 AM on February 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Pollomacho at 4:32 AM on February 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also, there was this "guy" who went kind of overboard....
To emphasize, that was in Dubai. India has no laws against cross-dressing _or_ kissing in public, merely against obscenity in public.
How did kissing become an obscene act in India?
Actually, it isn't; that's exactly what the high-court ruled. That was a local policeman looking for some quick hafta; kudos to the couple for taking it to the High Court and actually getting a judicial ruling on this. Most people I know simply spread some monetary love around when they are interrupted by khaki-walas; then again, they go to specific places in the town (Safdarjung's Tomb in Delhi as Ubu said, BandStand in Bombay, not that either has ever been totally safe) to get some action. Until that recent attack by the Rama Sene goons in Mangalore, a much safer place to make-out were couples-only pubs.
At a meeting on Wednesday, chaired by Sri Rama Sene leader Pramod Mutalik, Sene decided to arrange marriage between dating couples.
Seriously, this Sri Rama Sene group is wrong on so many levels, it's even silly to use our neurons discussing these neanderthals. All I'll say is this:- India is a grossly under-policed country with one of the lowest policeman-to-citizen ratios in the world. Increase this ratio, de-couple the local police from the local state government, and goons like the Sri Rama Sene will vanish overnight.
I grew up with a bunch of first-generation Indians, and was pretty shocked at their parents attitude towards what we tend to think of as very casual affection. I mean, they're worse than Catholics, which is pretty impressive.
Actually, a lot of 20-something Indians are also pretty shocked at their parents' generation's attitude towards things. The clear difference here is that we Indians harbour no residual guilt, unless one of us is an Indian Catholic. :-)
They only get away with this because, sadly, these views are shared by a lot of people.
Responses to modernization are one thing, and while there's understandable, shall we say, mixed feelings about it all, shooting people is quite another. You'll be surprised how unpopular police are when they shoot at citizens.
posted by the cydonian at 4:33 AM on February 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
To emphasize, that was in Dubai. India has no laws against cross-dressing _or_ kissing in public, merely against obscenity in public.
How did kissing become an obscene act in India?
Actually, it isn't; that's exactly what the high-court ruled. That was a local policeman looking for some quick hafta; kudos to the couple for taking it to the High Court and actually getting a judicial ruling on this. Most people I know simply spread some monetary love around when they are interrupted by khaki-walas; then again, they go to specific places in the town (Safdarjung's Tomb in Delhi as Ubu said, BandStand in Bombay, not that either has ever been totally safe) to get some action. Until that recent attack by the Rama Sene goons in Mangalore, a much safer place to make-out were couples-only pubs.
At a meeting on Wednesday, chaired by Sri Rama Sene leader Pramod Mutalik, Sene decided to arrange marriage between dating couples.
Seriously, this Sri Rama Sene group is wrong on so many levels, it's even silly to use our neurons discussing these neanderthals. All I'll say is this:- India is a grossly under-policed country with one of the lowest policeman-to-citizen ratios in the world. Increase this ratio, de-couple the local police from the local state government, and goons like the Sri Rama Sene will vanish overnight.
I grew up with a bunch of first-generation Indians, and was pretty shocked at their parents attitude towards what we tend to think of as very casual affection. I mean, they're worse than Catholics, which is pretty impressive.
Actually, a lot of 20-something Indians are also pretty shocked at their parents' generation's attitude towards things. The clear difference here is that we Indians harbour no residual guilt, unless one of us is an Indian Catholic. :-)
They only get away with this because, sadly, these views are shared by a lot of people.
Responses to modernization are one thing, and while there's understandable, shall we say, mixed feelings about it all, shooting people is quite another. You'll be surprised how unpopular police are when they shoot at citizens.
posted by the cydonian at 4:33 AM on February 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
One of the things that always bothered me, well, one of the many things, is that these social codes are often enforced by roving gangs of teenage boys who decide to become enforces of conservative morality. So if you are sitting on Chowpatty beach with your squeeze, a group of young men might approach and ask you what you're doing. If you tell them that you're unmarried, you're likely to be beaten and if you tell them that you're marreid, they insist on walking you back to your parents house - the absence of which is likely to cause a beating. Maybe a raping too, for the odd kind of cultural consistency that punishes minor acts of sexuality with rape.
Not only is having your own place pretty much out of the question for all but the uberwealthy, it doesn't really solve much, especially for women. If a strange boy comes up alone, even for a short period of time and doesn't spend the night, well, you're a whore so you're pretty much fair game for any would-be rapist to force his way into your room. Often the doorman will collude in this process, making sure that everyone knows exactly who you are.
Compared to acid attacks and eve teasing, this is just a fairly smart part of subcontinental sexual politics that needs to be changed and quick. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
posted by allen.spaulding at 4:37 AM on February 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Not only is having your own place pretty much out of the question for all but the uberwealthy, it doesn't really solve much, especially for women. If a strange boy comes up alone, even for a short period of time and doesn't spend the night, well, you're a whore so you're pretty much fair game for any would-be rapist to force his way into your room. Often the doorman will collude in this process, making sure that everyone knows exactly who you are.
Compared to acid attacks and eve teasing, this is just a fairly smart part of subcontinental sexual politics that needs to be changed and quick. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
posted by allen.spaulding at 4:37 AM on February 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Ah, Sri Cydonianji reinstalls some maturity into the discussion.
I'm quite amused that Rupert Murdoch cannot land (Kissinger-style) in India, because of a court ruling that his Star TV network is guilty of broadcasting obscenity into India from its satellite network.
The culprit? Baywatch.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:37 AM on February 5, 2009
I'm quite amused that Rupert Murdoch cannot land (Kissinger-style) in India, because of a court ruling that his Star TV network is guilty of broadcasting obscenity into India from its satellite network.
The culprit? Baywatch.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:37 AM on February 5, 2009
Compared to acid attacks and eve teasing, this is just a fairly smart part of subcontinental sexual politics that needs to be changed and quick.
While they're at it, those domestic kerosene stoves could do with a redesign. The number of women who manage to burn themselves to death in kitchen accidents is just beyond the pale.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:41 AM on February 5, 2009
While they're at it, those domestic kerosene stoves could do with a redesign. The number of women who manage to burn themselves to death in kitchen accidents is just beyond the pale.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:41 AM on February 5, 2009
those domestic kerosene stoves could do with a redesign
That one is not so restricted to India. ou'd think with the billions of people using them and all the engeneering might of China, India, Iran, Russia, Eastern Europe, Africa, and Latin America combined someone would have come up with something better by now, or at least they'd just have adopted what the billion or so Western European/North American/NZ/Aussie minority use.
posted by Pollomacho at 4:56 AM on February 5, 2009
That one is not so restricted to India. ou'd think with the billions of people using them and all the engeneering might of China, India, Iran, Russia, Eastern Europe, Africa, and Latin America combined someone would have come up with something better by now, or at least they'd just have adopted what the billion or so Western European/North American/NZ/Aussie minority use.
posted by Pollomacho at 4:56 AM on February 5, 2009
Thanks for stopping by cydonian! I knew that about cross-dressing with all the Hijra's in town, but I didn't know that it was not against the law to kiss. That's a surprise; good thing those two took this to the courts, where it belongs.
posted by hadjiboy at 5:01 AM on February 5, 2009
posted by hadjiboy at 5:01 AM on February 5, 2009
For some reason they frown on whipping your dick out on stage too. (nsfw)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:03 AM on February 5, 2009
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:03 AM on February 5, 2009
my culture is pretty dumb but lord it is not nearly this dumb
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:13 AM on February 5, 2009
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:13 AM on February 5, 2009
my culture is pretty dumb but lord it is not nearly this dumb
Don't call my culture dumb. It's offensive to me.
When I lived in London, I had to watch pimply-faced teenagers French kissing on the Tube platform all of the time. Ugh. There would be like fifty couples at it, all of them so gross.
It was disgusting. So I'm fine with no public displays of affection.
posted by anniecat at 6:35 AM on February 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Don't call my culture dumb. It's offensive to me.
When I lived in London, I had to watch pimply-faced teenagers French kissing on the Tube platform all of the time. Ugh. There would be like fifty couples at it, all of them so gross.
It was disgusting. So I'm fine with no public displays of affection.
posted by anniecat at 6:35 AM on February 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
So if you are sitting on Chowpatty beach with your squeeze, a group of young men might approach and ask you what you're doing. If you tell them that you're unmarried, you're likely to be beaten and if you tell them that you're marreid, they insist on walking you back to your parents house - the absence of which is likely to cause a beating. Maybe a raping too, for the odd kind of cultural consistency that punishes minor acts of sexuality with rape.
Never happened in my experience and I grew up there. Never even heard of such a thing until now.
posted by anniecat at 6:39 AM on February 5, 2009
Never happened in my experience and I grew up there. Never even heard of such a thing until now.
posted by anniecat at 6:39 AM on February 5, 2009
This is what I *hate* about cultural values. Most are illogical, overwrought and have no basis in reality. Whatever prudish, medical or religious "necessity" brought them into being died out decades ago.
Sorry - biological imperative trumps annoying historic cultural values when it comes to PDA's - it's kinda hard to fight a few million years of evolution. And why fight it?
If it isn't logical, then it isn't worth being embedded in ANY "culture".
This goes for any culture - I'm not singling anyone out here, there is plenty of crazy legacy crap in my own "culture".
posted by jkaczor at 6:54 AM on February 5, 2009
Sorry - biological imperative trumps annoying historic cultural values when it comes to PDA's - it's kinda hard to fight a few million years of evolution. And why fight it?
If it isn't logical, then it isn't worth being embedded in ANY "culture".
This goes for any culture - I'm not singling anyone out here, there is plenty of crazy legacy crap in my own "culture".
posted by jkaczor at 6:54 AM on February 5, 2009
I "love" this psot.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:58 AM on February 5, 2009
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:58 AM on February 5, 2009
Salman Rushdie parodied this wonderfully in Midnight's Children, where a couple indulged in a virtual kiss, by sipping from a glass from the same spot on the rim.
I thought this was pretty common in Bollywood movies.
posted by electroboy at 6:58 AM on February 5, 2009
I thought this was pretty common in Bollywood movies.
posted by electroboy at 6:58 AM on February 5, 2009
Isn't it possible to deplore and expose the overzealous and violent aspects of another culture without being disdainful towards its people and the mores that are simply different from your own? I guess not. Well then, it says a lot about New York that you prefer intolerance and snotty put-downs to understanding and dialogue.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:10 AM on February 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:10 AM on February 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
A place where I can walk hand in hand with my male partner, and where HETEROSEXUAL couples can finally know what it's like to experience the threat (and reality) of physical assault merely for being affectionate, in public?
Sounds like nirvana.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 7:18 AM on February 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sounds like nirvana.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 7:18 AM on February 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
where a couple indulged in a virtual kiss, by sipping from a glass from the same spot on the rim...
Oh, yeah! The "indirect kiss"! But I thought the image was that one person kissed an apple and passed it to the other to kiss as well?
posted by kittyprecious at 7:18 AM on February 5, 2009
Oh, yeah! The "indirect kiss"! But I thought the image was that one person kissed an apple and passed it to the other to kiss as well?
posted by kittyprecious at 7:18 AM on February 5, 2009
I mean, they're worse than Catholics, which is pretty impressive.
Wh-what? In context context today are Catholics known for being especially abstemious with affection?
And seriously, why are so many people here begging for a MeTa callout?
posted by kittyprecious at 7:23 AM on February 5, 2009
Wh-what? In context context today are Catholics known for being especially abstemious with affection?
And seriously, why are so many people here begging for a MeTa callout?
posted by kittyprecious at 7:23 AM on February 5, 2009
I couldn't even count the number of times girlfriends of mine have had their boobies grabbed by sexually repressed young Indian men. Having said that, chasing them down and publicly humiliating them is a grand ol' time.
posted by gman at 7:25 AM on February 5, 2009
posted by gman at 7:25 AM on February 5, 2009
Well then, it says a lot about New York that you prefer intolerance and snotty put-downs to understanding and dialogue.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:10 AM on February 5
To be fair to New York, i was like this long before I moved here. And I maintain that my "snotty put-down" is essentially correct. What kind of twisted person sees two people kissing and thinks "they should be arrested and thrown in jail"?
I have seen beautiful people kissing, ugly people kissing, old people kissing, teenagers kissing, all in public, and not once did I think holy shit these monsters must be stopped! Now, I don't want to psychoanalyze someone whom I've never met, but I posit that if one's first reaction to basic PDA is "ban it and throw violators in prison" then you are either lonely and bitter and have given up entirely or you come from a background which sees human affection as an enemy of the state or of god.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:30 AM on February 5, 2009
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:10 AM on February 5
To be fair to New York, i was like this long before I moved here. And I maintain that my "snotty put-down" is essentially correct. What kind of twisted person sees two people kissing and thinks "they should be arrested and thrown in jail"?
I have seen beautiful people kissing, ugly people kissing, old people kissing, teenagers kissing, all in public, and not once did I think holy shit these monsters must be stopped! Now, I don't want to psychoanalyze someone whom I've never met, but I posit that if one's first reaction to basic PDA is "ban it and throw violators in prison" then you are either lonely and bitter and have given up entirely or you come from a background which sees human affection as an enemy of the state or of god.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:30 AM on February 5, 2009
In France they kiss on Main Street. But what do you get when you kiss a guy? You get enough germs to catch pneumonia. Hey!! Stay away from da kiss of love.
posted by Phanx at 7:33 AM on February 5, 2009
posted by Phanx at 7:33 AM on February 5, 2009
Other cultures have different sets of things they think are deplorable. You would freak out if you saw someone smacking the shit out their kid on the street too but that is standard in many cultures. They could ask "What kind of twisted freak sees someone discipling their own child and and gets their western underpants all bunchy?" I'm no relativist, to me putting people in jail for smooching and beating kids are both objectively immoral, but I don't think it makes cultures or people "dumb" for believing differently. I know this is just internet and it's fun to be pithy, but in the space between objecting to a behavior or set of laws and elevating your own culture above another is the leap to xenophobia.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:45 AM on February 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:45 AM on February 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
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posted by pracowity at 12:17 AM on February 5, 2009