September 12, 2001
4:59 AM Subscribe
Blair just made an address the the British people where he pledged once again his full support for the US, and also emphasised how almost all muslim groups were shocked and outraged by this tragedy and offered their thoughts and prayers to the US people. I was astonished and saddened yesterday by the BBC, who chose to represent UK muslims by AM, an extremist fundamentalist faction whose representative made comments like this was a perfectly legitimate target under jihad, and all muslims who believe this a tragedy cannot call themselves muslim. Jihad does not allow murder of civilians on pain of death.. This is not the first time the BBC has asked this group to represent us, please call 08700 100 222 to complain to the BBC if you feel as saddened by this as I do..
Qur'ran 005.033:
Qur'ran 008.012: posted by dagny at 5:15 AM on September 12, 2001
Yeah...well if you had actually read the Qu'ran instead of used some search engine you would also have read that it says that there will be no compulsion in religion.
The first verse details how to react to people that wage war on you and spread "...mischief through the land" which makes me think you didn't even read that one.
Do grow up.
posted by jackiemcghee at 5:21 AM on September 12, 2001
The first verse details how to react to people that wage war on you and spread "...mischief through the land" which makes me think you didn't even read that one.
Do grow up.
posted by jackiemcghee at 5:21 AM on September 12, 2001
Come on, dagny. That's not fair. You may be angry, upset, or confused, but quoting out of context gets no one anywhere. I'm half-German; I would hope that people would not blame everyone of German descent for Hitler's crimes against humanity.
King James Version, Exodus 21:20-21:
"And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he [the servant] is his property."
King James Version Deuteronomy 21:18-21:
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city, and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear."
posted by gramcracker at 5:43 AM on September 12, 2001
King James Version, Exodus 21:20-21:
"And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he [the servant] is his property."
King James Version Deuteronomy 21:18-21:
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city, and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear."
posted by gramcracker at 5:43 AM on September 12, 2001
Qu'ran 2.190
These limits can be found in the muslim and bukhari hadith of the prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Sura 8 (the second quote by dagny), refers to, and was revealed at the time of, the battle of Badr, where Allah said this to reassure the massively outnumbered muslim forces when surrounded - the Qu'ran is a record of all of Allahs communications, the background in cases like this is always good..
posted by Mossy at 5:47 AM on September 12, 2001
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
These limits can be found in the muslim and bukhari hadith of the prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Sura 8 (the second quote by dagny), refers to, and was revealed at the time of, the battle of Badr, where Allah said this to reassure the massively outnumbered muslim forces when surrounded - the Qu'ran is a record of all of Allahs communications, the background in cases like this is always good..
posted by Mossy at 5:47 AM on September 12, 2001
I too listened to the interview with that 'representative' on Radio 5. He started by saying that this sort of attack could never be condoned because of the various 'rules' of Jihad. He then went on to say that he did condone it on the basis that the US supported the terrorist state of Israel. The poor chap was very confused by the end of it and I shouldn't think many took his words with anything other than a barrel of salt.
posted by nico at 6:42 AM on September 12, 2001
posted by nico at 6:42 AM on September 12, 2001
I suppose another lesson of yesterday is: Religion remains brain poison. How many more people need to die in the name of God before your murderous invisible magical being is satisfied?
posted by UncleFes at 7:33 AM on September 12, 2001
posted by UncleFes at 7:33 AM on September 12, 2001
They were on TV as well I think.. The muslim world really needs a bit of unity - we all base our beliefs on the same books and beliefs, why can't we get a centralised and recognised leadership? Hmm, then again that would really spook the West..
posted by Mossy at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2001
posted by Mossy at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2001
Hmm, then again that would really spook the West..
I think we're well beyond spooked. We're about 48 hours from full-on revenge mode. The big dog is officially off the porch.
Any Mefis in Kabul or Gaza may want to haul ass. Fair warning.
posted by UncleFes at 7:48 AM on September 12, 2001
I think we're well beyond spooked. We're about 48 hours from full-on revenge mode. The big dog is officially off the porch.
Any Mefis in Kabul or Gaza may want to haul ass. Fair warning.
posted by UncleFes at 7:48 AM on September 12, 2001
No, the west is in shock - the leading nation, the US, has just come under an astounding and unexpected attack - a billion or so muslims forming a worldwide alliance would spook the West..
I very much doubt there is any way in which the Palestinians are involved.. But Kabul does NOT look like the place to be at the mo - I doubt there are any Mefis there tho seeing as the taleban banned the net..
posted by Mossy at 8:05 AM on September 12, 2001
I very much doubt there is any way in which the Palestinians are involved.. But Kabul does NOT look like the place to be at the mo - I doubt there are any Mefis there tho seeing as the taleban banned the net..
posted by Mossy at 8:05 AM on September 12, 2001
I suppose another lesson of yesterday is: Religion remains brain poison. How many more people need to die in the name of God before your murderous invisible magical being is satisfied?
The death of reason precedes (and anticipates) the death of bodies.
posted by rushmc at 8:09 AM on September 12, 2001
The death of reason precedes (and anticipates) the death of bodies.
posted by rushmc at 8:09 AM on September 12, 2001
Mossy - "Centralized and recognized leadership"? Like roman catholicism? That's just so not a step forward.
I've read and agreed with pretty much every post of yours in the last 24 hours, but that one is off the wall. If such leadership did exist, do you think that the leaders would take a phone-vote from muslims worldwide before giving their opinions to CNN?
posted by pascal at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2001
I've read and agreed with pretty much every post of yours in the last 24 hours, but that one is off the wall. If such leadership did exist, do you think that the leaders would take a phone-vote from muslims worldwide before giving their opinions to CNN?
posted by pascal at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2001
The death of reason precedes (and anticipates) the death of bodies.
The most accurate summary of the last 36 hours events as I've seen.
a billion or so muslims forming a worldwide alliance would spook the West..
I wonder if, after yesterday's events, the US would allow such a thing to happen undetered....? I think "spook" is ludicrously pale a word for what would happen. I think we would consider it an act of overt hostility and, if a billion muslims decided to get together and form a country, I think we might just nuke it. Or look the other way when (not if) Israel and India do.
posted by UncleFes at 9:25 AM on September 12, 2001
The most accurate summary of the last 36 hours events as I've seen.
a billion or so muslims forming a worldwide alliance would spook the West..
I wonder if, after yesterday's events, the US would allow such a thing to happen undetered....? I think "spook" is ludicrously pale a word for what would happen. I think we would consider it an act of overt hostility and, if a billion muslims decided to get together and form a country, I think we might just nuke it. Or look the other way when (not if) Israel and India do.
posted by UncleFes at 9:25 AM on September 12, 2001
ok pascal, maybe that wasn't the best of points - how about someone that the press can actually turn to for a good reliable source of information about islam? So you don't get extremist groups like the AM on the BBC representing us? We have the Qu'ran in its original form, and many thousands of scholars on the subject in Islamic institutions around the world. All I want is for one of these to gain a high enough profile so that they can be called upon in times like this to clear up matters..
Unclefes - All Jews in the World belong to the nation known as Israel (not a piece of land, a community). The worldwide nation of muslims is known as the muslim Ummah, but we've lost our sense of brotherhood and unity that the Jews have maintained.. Considering there are 6-7 million muslims in America, and at least a few million in most of the major countries in the world, that would be a lot of nuking to do.. Also, the BBC reckons by 2025 1 in 3 people will be muslim, fastest growing world religion too. Ah well, looks like we're all to disunited and factious to come together though, who knows what the future holds?
Going back to rushmc, lets hope reason is maintained by all..
posted by Mossy at 10:05 AM on September 12, 2001
Unclefes - All Jews in the World belong to the nation known as Israel (not a piece of land, a community). The worldwide nation of muslims is known as the muslim Ummah, but we've lost our sense of brotherhood and unity that the Jews have maintained.. Considering there are 6-7 million muslims in America, and at least a few million in most of the major countries in the world, that would be a lot of nuking to do.. Also, the BBC reckons by 2025 1 in 3 people will be muslim, fastest growing world religion too. Ah well, looks like we're all to disunited and factious to come together though, who knows what the future holds?
Going back to rushmc, lets hope reason is maintained by all..
posted by Mossy at 10:05 AM on September 12, 2001
"if a billion muslims decided to get together and form a country, I think we might just nuke it. "
Umm, why? Because we're all the terrorists and therefore a threat?
posted by Saima at 4:17 AM on September 13, 2001
Umm, why? Because we're all the terrorists and therefore a threat?
posted by Saima at 4:17 AM on September 13, 2001
Because we're all the terrorists and therefore a threat?
No. Because we've just been bombed and we're not acting altogether rationally just lately. Children are throwing stones at mosques here this morning. Our president is sobbing on national television. The Mayor of New York City just asked for 6000 body bags to augment his current stock of 30000. There is no historical precendent for this, and there is no telling what America is going to do. There is a shitstorm coming to Greater Arabia, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. Every veteran of our armed forces in on 24-hour alert. The only planes in our skies are warplanes with orders to shoot down anything they come across. Regardless of guilt, bin Laden and his entire organization are going to be destroyed. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are likely to be destroyed as well. We are going to give up trying to broker peace in Israel, and allow the Israelis license to do whatever they feel is necessary in Gaza. I personally doubt Arafat will be alive in the spring. Afghani complicity in this is taken as fact; We will almost certainly attack Afghanistan with overwhelming military force before year end. Iraq and Egypt are likely to be struck as well, and after the criticism of Bush Senior over leaving Hussein in power in Iraq, it's fairly safe to assume that Bush Junior will not make the same mistake. If there is a land war in Egypt (and there's already been talk of this), I can't imagine they could stand for more than a few weeks. If these actions spread beyond these initial strikes, NATO has asssured us their support, as has the UN. Russia will use this opportunity to move against the Muslim Chechens and Tajiks. In addition, they have already offered military support if we attack Afghanistan - they want to pay the Mujahideen back for bleeding them dry in the 1980s. India may take this opportunity to move against Pakistan, which could set off a nuclear exchange.
The terrorists may have hurt America, but they have set in motion machinery that will brutalize the middle east. If you have family there, get them out as soon as possible.
posted by UncleFes at 9:07 AM on September 13, 2001
No. Because we've just been bombed and we're not acting altogether rationally just lately. Children are throwing stones at mosques here this morning. Our president is sobbing on national television. The Mayor of New York City just asked for 6000 body bags to augment his current stock of 30000. There is no historical precendent for this, and there is no telling what America is going to do. There is a shitstorm coming to Greater Arabia, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. Every veteran of our armed forces in on 24-hour alert. The only planes in our skies are warplanes with orders to shoot down anything they come across. Regardless of guilt, bin Laden and his entire organization are going to be destroyed. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are likely to be destroyed as well. We are going to give up trying to broker peace in Israel, and allow the Israelis license to do whatever they feel is necessary in Gaza. I personally doubt Arafat will be alive in the spring. Afghani complicity in this is taken as fact; We will almost certainly attack Afghanistan with overwhelming military force before year end. Iraq and Egypt are likely to be struck as well, and after the criticism of Bush Senior over leaving Hussein in power in Iraq, it's fairly safe to assume that Bush Junior will not make the same mistake. If there is a land war in Egypt (and there's already been talk of this), I can't imagine they could stand for more than a few weeks. If these actions spread beyond these initial strikes, NATO has asssured us their support, as has the UN. Russia will use this opportunity to move against the Muslim Chechens and Tajiks. In addition, they have already offered military support if we attack Afghanistan - they want to pay the Mujahideen back for bleeding them dry in the 1980s. India may take this opportunity to move against Pakistan, which could set off a nuclear exchange.
The terrorists may have hurt America, but they have set in motion machinery that will brutalize the middle east. If you have family there, get them out as soon as possible.
posted by UncleFes at 9:07 AM on September 13, 2001
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