Saudi Royal Wealth: Where do they get all that money?
March 1, 2011 8:14 AM Subscribe
Reuters Special Report: U.S. cables detail Saudi royal welfare program "The cables, obtained by WikiLeaks and reviewed by Reuters, provide remarkable insight into how much the vast royal welfare program has cost the country -- not just financially but in terms of undermining social cohesion.
Besides the huge monthly stipends that every Saudi royal receives, the cables detail various money-making schemes some royals have used to finance their lavish lifestyles over the years."
They may be corrupt, hateful despots, but they're currently OUR corrupt, hateful despots (despite their citizens flying planes into our buildings), so I expect this will be met with a "Eh, what can you do?" from Washington.
posted by Legomancer at 8:35 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Legomancer at 8:35 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I fully support pay cuts for public school teachers to fund this.
posted by chasing at 8:36 AM on March 1, 2011 [24 favorites]
posted by chasing at 8:36 AM on March 1, 2011 [24 favorites]
Amway is a money-making scheme. Siphoning money off of government project, charging fees from foreign workers, and stealing money directly from banks? That's just plain old corruption.
posted by KGMoney at 8:37 AM on March 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by KGMoney at 8:37 AM on March 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
Is Al Jazeera covering it?
posted by empath at 8:38 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 8:38 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think that we should fire more teachers to balance the budget.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 8:38 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Threeway Handshake at 8:38 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Bonus payments are available for marriage and palace building," according to the cableAn enlightened social policy if a nation wants to lead the world in number of palaces.
posted by acb at 8:40 AM on March 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
They may be corrupt, hateful despots, but they're currently OUR corrupt, hateful despots (despite their citizens flying planes into our buildings), so I expect this will be met with a "Eh, what can you do?" from Washington.
If I've learned anything over the last few weeks, its that Washington is not the opinion that matters.
posted by Big_B at 8:40 AM on March 1, 2011 [21 favorites]
If I've learned anything over the last few weeks, its that Washington is not the opinion that matters.
posted by Big_B at 8:40 AM on March 1, 2011 [21 favorites]
If you want to change the government there it may well involve deposing or killing hundreds or thousands of so-called royalty.
What's it called when we just let the locals do that? Oh yeah: civil war.
posted by General Tonic at 8:41 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
What's it called when we just let the locals do that? Oh yeah: civil war.
posted by General Tonic at 8:41 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
they're currently OUR corrupt, hateful despots
I know an old guy in Egypt who can tell you how brief "currently" can be.
posted by Joe Beese at 8:42 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I know an old guy in Egypt who can tell you how brief "currently" can be.
posted by Joe Beese at 8:42 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Thank you again, Wikileaks
posted by Hoopo at 8:42 AM on March 1, 2011 [20 favorites]
posted by Hoopo at 8:42 AM on March 1, 2011 [20 favorites]
If I've learned anything over the last few weeks, its that Washington is not the opinion that matters.
"A Middle Eastern despot now knows for sure when his time in power is well and truly up. He knows it when his bankers in Zurich or Geneva cease accepting his transfers and responding to his confidential communications and instead begin the process of "freezing" his assets and disclosing their extent and their whereabouts to investigators in his long-exploited country. And, at precisely that moment, the U.S. government also announces that it no longer recognizes the said depositor as the duly constituted head of state."
posted by acb at 8:43 AM on March 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
"A Middle Eastern despot now knows for sure when his time in power is well and truly up. He knows it when his bankers in Zurich or Geneva cease accepting his transfers and responding to his confidential communications and instead begin the process of "freezing" his assets and disclosing their extent and their whereabouts to investigators in his long-exploited country. And, at precisely that moment, the U.S. government also announces that it no longer recognizes the said depositor as the duly constituted head of state."
posted by acb at 8:43 AM on March 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
Legomancer: it's not just that. There's no government on the planet as thoroughly in bed with the US as the Saudis. We take their oil, and build their cities, and they largely invest their proceeds back into the US stock market. They don't just play ball. The modern Saudi state, with all its repression and utter lack of human rights and equality, is in large part our creation.
This is the kind of society that the US (now transnational) oil corporations want. It's not coincidence, not even a little bit, that most countries with large petrochemical deposits and heavy US corporate presence are exceedingly horrible.
posted by Malor at 8:43 AM on March 1, 2011 [16 favorites]
This is the kind of society that the US (now transnational) oil corporations want. It's not coincidence, not even a little bit, that most countries with large petrochemical deposits and heavy US corporate presence are exceedingly horrible.
posted by Malor at 8:43 AM on March 1, 2011 [16 favorites]
Thank you Bradley Manning, thank you Julian Assange®.
posted by lemuring at 8:45 AM on March 1, 2011 [22 favorites]
posted by lemuring at 8:45 AM on March 1, 2011 [22 favorites]
They may be corrupt, hateful despots, but they're currently OUR corrupt, hateful despots
Saudi Arabia is the Arab world's leading democracy. They have diplomatic relations with the US, don't threaten to vaporise Israel and they keep us in affordable oil and buy our bonds, therefore they're a democracy.
Sure, there was the 9/11 thing, but that only happened once, and anyone can make a mistake once.
Hamburger.
posted by acb at 8:47 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Saudi Arabia is the Arab world's leading democracy. They have diplomatic relations with the US, don't threaten to vaporise Israel and they keep us in affordable oil and buy our bonds, therefore they're a democracy.
Sure, there was the 9/11 thing, but that only happened once, and anyone can make a mistake once.
Hamburger.
posted by acb at 8:47 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
You should thank Bob Baer, his two books make this wikileak stuff look a shopping list.
and build their cities,
Cite.
posted by clavdivs at 8:50 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
and build their cities,
Cite.
posted by clavdivs at 8:50 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
As long ago as 1996, U.S. officials noted that such unrestrained behavior could fuel a backlash against the Saudi elite. In the assessment of the U.S. embassy in Riyadh in a cable from that year, "of the priority issues the country faces, getting a grip on royal family excesses is at the top."Ahoy there, Captain Kettle, It looks like your ship is listing! Yes, it's your boat and the horizon, but the Freedom Express couldn't possibly be in danger...
posted by notion at 8:52 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Cables in 1996 stated that the public was already fed up with the corruption of Saudi royals. 15 years is a long time for discontent to build, and according to the CIA World Factbook, 38% of the country is under 14 years old. That's a whole lot of people coming of age knowing nothing but mistrust of their government.
posted by KGMoney at 8:53 AM on March 1, 2011
posted by KGMoney at 8:53 AM on March 1, 2011
Saudis may not be massing on the streets like others in the Middle East, but their petitions and complaints are momentous. The most recent being “A Declaration of National Reform”.
posted by adamvasco at 8:57 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 8:57 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
"They may be corrupt, hateful despots, but they 're currently OUR corrupt, hateful despot currently control the price of oil and can crush the world's economy pretty much at whim."
FTFY. HTH. HAND.
posted by eriko at 9:09 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
FTFY. HTH. HAND.
posted by eriko at 9:09 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
If novels and movies have taught us anything, it is that a band of freedom fighters, wearing water-recycling clothing and riding giant worms, are the House of Saud's biggest threat.
posted by zippy at 9:13 AM on March 1, 2011 [18 favorites]
posted by zippy at 9:13 AM on March 1, 2011 [18 favorites]
The best part from the linked article:
Then there was the apparently common practice for royals to borrow money from commercial banks and simply not repay their loans. As a result, the 12 commercial banks in the country were "generally leary of lending to royals.
Meanwhile in Belgium: "Belgium's Prince Laurent, stripped of his driving licence last week, came in for the wrath of parliament Thursday for grabbing a business-class seat with an economy-class ticket."
posted by iviken at 9:14 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Then there was the apparently common practice for royals to borrow money from commercial banks and simply not repay their loans. As a result, the 12 commercial banks in the country were "generally leary of lending to royals.
Meanwhile in Belgium: "Belgium's Prince Laurent, stripped of his driving licence last week, came in for the wrath of parliament Thursday for grabbing a business-class seat with an economy-class ticket."
posted by iviken at 9:14 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Saudi royal family corruption runs deeper than ever thought?
Deeper than ever thought by who? I knew that the House of Saud is a wholly-owned US client government, and I'm just some guy on the internet. I assumed it was general knowledge. If the Saudi people rise up against the House of Saud, shit will really hit the fan here in the US.
posted by rusty at 9:16 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Deeper than ever thought by who? I knew that the House of Saud is a wholly-owned US client government, and I'm just some guy on the internet. I assumed it was general knowledge. If the Saudi people rise up against the House of Saud, shit will really hit the fan here in the US.
posted by rusty at 9:16 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Cite.
Part of the whole "sweetheart deal" arrangement with the Saudis was that, in exchange for extracting their oil, that US companies like Halliburton would build their cities to modern standards. Now, they did a good job, no doubt about that; the quality of the construction is excellent. But the whole arrangement, top to bottom, was oriented around using American companies to provide as many services as possible. We extracted their oil, we provided financial services, we did their construction, we absorbed their investment money into Wall Street. Saudi Arabia, more than any other country in the world, is the creation of the US oil elite.
I didn't read about this on the Web, so I don't have a direct link for you. My primary source is Tales of an Economic Hitman, which was an amazing book. Conservatives hate it, and savage it mercilessly, but I've done my own research on many of his claims, and I found excellent backing for his belief that we have, by and large, used debt as a weapon to assimilate poor countries worldwide.
In country after country throughout the world, we promised too much economic growth, and overbuilt their infrastructure, knowingly putting them into debt that their economies couldn't service. This eventually destroyed their middle class, throwing most of the population into permanent poverty, and putting a hyper-elite into permanent power. This gives us immense leverage over these countries; in exchange for some debt relief, we can get amazing rates on new resource deals. Further, we can also get them to do nearly anything we want, including voting the way we wish in the U.N.
When you look at resource-rich countries all over the world, if the US has been deeply involved there, it's very rare for the population to be doing at all well. There will almost always be a hyper-wealthy, corrupt elite, and a huge population of, essentially, chattel.
The Saudis, being so much richer than the other resource countries, couldn't be put into debt the same way, but we nonetheless arranged things so that a very few people had direct control over the immense oil revenues, and the typical corruption and nepotism took over there as it has almost everywhere else.
This is part of why I'm so terrified of what's happening with the national budget in this country; I believe that the same primary weapon (lack of understanding of the toxicity of long-term government debt) is being turned by the same corporations that benefited in the third world against the American people that birthed them.
Read Tales of an Economic Hitman, and do your own research. I think you'll find it holds up exceedingly well.
posted by Malor at 9:19 AM on March 1, 2011 [40 favorites]
Part of the whole "sweetheart deal" arrangement with the Saudis was that, in exchange for extracting their oil, that US companies like Halliburton would build their cities to modern standards. Now, they did a good job, no doubt about that; the quality of the construction is excellent. But the whole arrangement, top to bottom, was oriented around using American companies to provide as many services as possible. We extracted their oil, we provided financial services, we did their construction, we absorbed their investment money into Wall Street. Saudi Arabia, more than any other country in the world, is the creation of the US oil elite.
I didn't read about this on the Web, so I don't have a direct link for you. My primary source is Tales of an Economic Hitman, which was an amazing book. Conservatives hate it, and savage it mercilessly, but I've done my own research on many of his claims, and I found excellent backing for his belief that we have, by and large, used debt as a weapon to assimilate poor countries worldwide.
In country after country throughout the world, we promised too much economic growth, and overbuilt their infrastructure, knowingly putting them into debt that their economies couldn't service. This eventually destroyed their middle class, throwing most of the population into permanent poverty, and putting a hyper-elite into permanent power. This gives us immense leverage over these countries; in exchange for some debt relief, we can get amazing rates on new resource deals. Further, we can also get them to do nearly anything we want, including voting the way we wish in the U.N.
When you look at resource-rich countries all over the world, if the US has been deeply involved there, it's very rare for the population to be doing at all well. There will almost always be a hyper-wealthy, corrupt elite, and a huge population of, essentially, chattel.
The Saudis, being so much richer than the other resource countries, couldn't be put into debt the same way, but we nonetheless arranged things so that a very few people had direct control over the immense oil revenues, and the typical corruption and nepotism took over there as it has almost everywhere else.
This is part of why I'm so terrified of what's happening with the national budget in this country; I believe that the same primary weapon (lack of understanding of the toxicity of long-term government debt) is being turned by the same corporations that benefited in the third world against the American people that birthed them.
Read Tales of an Economic Hitman, and do your own research. I think you'll find it holds up exceedingly well.
posted by Malor at 9:19 AM on March 1, 2011 [40 favorites]
It's nice to have this little window into European society functioned during the 15th century.
posted by dry white toast at 9:22 AM on March 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by dry white toast at 9:22 AM on March 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
into how European society functioned...
I need lunch.
posted by dry white toast at 9:23 AM on March 1, 2011
I need lunch.
posted by dry white toast at 9:23 AM on March 1, 2011
It's nice to have this little window into European society functioned during the 15th century.
Or, in some ways, the US in the 1865-1893 period.
posted by eriko at 9:26 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Or, in some ways, the US in the 1865-1893 period.
posted by eriko at 9:26 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Saudi Arabia is indeed wealthy, but most of its young population cannot find jobs in either the public or private sector. The expansion of its $430 billion economy has benefited a substantial section of the entrepreneurial elite -- particularly those well connected with the ruling family -- but has failed to produce jobs for thousands of college graduates every year. This same elite has resisted employing expensive Saudis and contributed to the rise in local unemployment by hiring foreign labor."
And regarding Oman next door:
"Half the population of less than three million is less than 21 years old. Unemployment is rife - especially among the youth carrying a useless diploma. Of a total of up to 40,000 high school graduates a year, only a few find a job. (...)
The protesters are basically complaining about miserable wages, compared to relentless, rising inflation; and that most jobs go to foreigners (employed by foreign corporations) or to Omanis from the capital Muscat."
posted by iviken at 9:28 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
And regarding Oman next door:
"Half the population of less than three million is less than 21 years old. Unemployment is rife - especially among the youth carrying a useless diploma. Of a total of up to 40,000 high school graduates a year, only a few find a job. (...)
The protesters are basically complaining about miserable wages, compared to relentless, rising inflation; and that most jobs go to foreigners (employed by foreign corporations) or to Omanis from the capital Muscat."
posted by iviken at 9:28 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Ozymandias
© Percy Bysshe Shelley, Riyadh Revolutionary Press, 2015
posted by MuffinMan at 9:30 AM on March 1, 2011
© Percy Bysshe Shelley, Riyadh Revolutionary Press, 2015
posted by MuffinMan at 9:30 AM on March 1, 2011
In related news, Secretary of State Clinton is currently speaking to the House Committee on Foreign Affaris (live stream).
posted by HLD at 9:34 AM on March 1, 2011
posted by HLD at 9:34 AM on March 1, 2011
Meanwhile in Belgium: "Belgium's Prince Laurent, stripped of his driving licence last week, came in for the wrath of parliament Thursday for grabbing a business-class seat with an economy-class ticket."
I call satire. Belgium doesn't have a working parliament.
posted by acb at 9:36 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I call satire. Belgium doesn't have a working parliament.
posted by acb at 9:36 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I knew that the House of Saud is a wholly-owned US client government, and I'm just some guy on the internet.
I don't think this is entirely accurate. They are surely entwined with our government, but I wouldn't call them clients.
posted by empath at 9:38 AM on March 1, 2011
I don't think this is entirely accurate. They are surely entwined with our government, but I wouldn't call them clients.
posted by empath at 9:38 AM on March 1, 2011
Read Tales of an Economic Hitman
It's "Confessions of an Economic Hitman," and it's a James Frey-level work of fiction.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:39 AM on March 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
It's "Confessions of an Economic Hitman," and it's a James Frey-level work of fiction.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:39 AM on March 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
I don't think this is entirely accurate. They are surely entwined with our government, but I wouldn't call them clients.
Don't they own 6% of the US economy? (Possibly more now.) Not to mention the second largest slice of News Corp.
posted by acb at 9:40 AM on March 1, 2011
Don't they own 6% of the US economy? (Possibly more now.) Not to mention the second largest slice of News Corp.
posted by acb at 9:40 AM on March 1, 2011
There was this report on NPR the other day which I found enlightening. 44% unemployment among male college graduates in the Kingdom. Of course there's unrest.
Apparently the colleges in Saudi Arabia are no good for training folks for professional-type jobs - engineers, lawyers, scientists. So those pursuing those degrees are shipped off to better schools in the rest of the world, and then have no jobs to come home to.
posted by backseatpilot at 9:43 AM on March 1, 2011
Apparently the colleges in Saudi Arabia are no good for training folks for professional-type jobs - engineers, lawyers, scientists. So those pursuing those degrees are shipped off to better schools in the rest of the world, and then have no jobs to come home to.
posted by backseatpilot at 9:43 AM on March 1, 2011
Hmm, how are those alternative energy sources coming along...
posted by misterG at 9:44 AM on March 1, 2011
posted by misterG at 9:44 AM on March 1, 2011
Don't they own 6% of the US economy? (Possibly more now.) Not to mention the second largest slice of News Corp.
It's considered polite these days to refer to News Corp as "the Australian problem."
posted by MuffinMan at 9:50 AM on March 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
It's considered polite these days to refer to News Corp as "the Australian problem."
posted by MuffinMan at 9:50 AM on March 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
It's "Confessions of an Economic Hitman," and it's a James Frey-level work of fiction.
Though for what it's worth, Bob Baer seems to think Perkins is legit.
posted by homunculus at 9:55 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Though for what it's worth, Bob Baer seems to think Perkins is legit.
posted by homunculus at 9:55 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
and it's a James Frey-level work of fiction.
It isn't, CPB. Read it carefully, and do your own research. You will find that it matches the real-world known facts essentially perfectly.
The major criticism I've seen raised, repeatedly, is that the author's initial trainer was a beautiful woman that he was attracted to... the conservatives harp on that point endlessly, saying it proves that the whole thing is bullshit. But they never really address the central issues raised by the book, choosing instead to assert loudly that the government couldn't employ attractive people. After all, everyone knows Valerie Plame couldn't possibly have been a CIA agent, right?
I looked into this pretty thoroughly when I first read it, and the criticisms were always vague and full of innuendo and slander, rather than being substantive. As I looked into the claims it makes, I believe the lack of true, substantive criticism because he's right.
posted by Malor at 9:57 AM on March 1, 2011
It isn't, CPB. Read it carefully, and do your own research. You will find that it matches the real-world known facts essentially perfectly.
The major criticism I've seen raised, repeatedly, is that the author's initial trainer was a beautiful woman that he was attracted to... the conservatives harp on that point endlessly, saying it proves that the whole thing is bullshit. But they never really address the central issues raised by the book, choosing instead to assert loudly that the government couldn't employ attractive people. After all, everyone knows Valerie Plame couldn't possibly have been a CIA agent, right?
I looked into this pretty thoroughly when I first read it, and the criticisms were always vague and full of innuendo and slander, rather than being substantive. As I looked into the claims it makes, I believe the lack of true, substantive criticism because he's right.
posted by Malor at 9:57 AM on March 1, 2011
It's considered polite these days to refer to News Corp as "the Australian problem."
Given that Murdoch renounced his Australian nationality and moved the headquarters to New York to be allowed to expand his US holdings, we wash our hands of him. He's all yours now*.
* Except in China, where he's a patriotic member of the Communist Party hierarchy (via his wife).
posted by acb at 10:12 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Given that Murdoch renounced his Australian nationality and moved the headquarters to New York to be allowed to expand his US holdings, we wash our hands of him. He's all yours now*.
* Except in China, where he's a patriotic member of the Communist Party hierarchy (via his wife).
posted by acb at 10:12 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, in Equatorial Guinea, the dictator's son had plans drawn up for a superyacht costing three times the country's combined health and education budgets.
posted by acb at 10:14 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by acb at 10:14 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
The tone Perkins' writing takes in Confessions of an Economic Hitman doesn't lend itself to credibility and certainly put me off too, CPB, but I honestly have no idea whether Perkins sexing up of the narrative to make it more readable involved any outright fabrications or not. I only got partway through it though because I didn't like his narrative persona.
posted by Hoopo at 10:18 AM on March 1, 2011
posted by Hoopo at 10:18 AM on March 1, 2011
I don't know if Confessions of an Economic Hitman is true or not (I couldn't get more than a dozen pages into it because I found the narrative voice to be sickening; it is now the book I use to prop up the back of my laptop so the fan can cool it easier) but what Malor is describing is pretty much the Milton Friedman playbook described by Naomi Kleim over and over in The Shock Doctrine.
posted by Legomancer at 10:19 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Legomancer at 10:19 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Apparently the colleges in Saudi Arabia are no good for training folks for professional-type jobs - engineers, lawyers, scientists.
I haven't seen the numbers in a few years, but there was a time not too long ago that the KSA colleges were cranking out vast numbers of Religious Studies grads.
This same elite has resisted employing expensive Saudis and contributed to the rise in local unemployment by hiring foreign labor.
True. I used to live there. Interesting issue. In some cases, Saudis lack the experience and training, but plenty of people can and do hire people from India, the Philippines, Pakistan, etc., because they are willing to take far less than Saudis, really low wages that a reasonable Saudi would find ludicrous.
Salaries aside, the politically incorrect aspect is that--and some Saudis are acknowledging this in newspaper columns, etc.--the tendency is that the work ethic among citizens of the land of sand is something less than intense.
There's a joke in the Kingdom that an American, a German and a Saudi are talking about whether or not it is work for a man to give sexual pleasure to his wife. The American says it's a pleasure to physically express his love and to please her. The German says its work and requires careful planning and execution to ensure the best result. The Saudi says, "Of course it's pleasure! If it was work I'd hire an Indian to do it."
Oh by the way, something crazy like 94 percent of the country's citizens are employed by the gov't. (Couldn't find a number for the USA, read that it's about 24 percent for the UK.)
posted by ambient2 at 10:22 AM on March 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Thanks Papa Cool Bell and correct as usual. Wow, the NSA huh. I have read that book and do see some of the "I will build you a power plant today for your crops and minerals tomorrow" scheme. Nasty business practices creep everywhere. Bob reviewed a different book then 'CEHM'. It is no secret that this overselling occured, it occurs today and even with-in our own system of buying (for 2$ more you can get 30 bars of soap instead of 20)
I have no doubt that Perkins is shedding some light, I think he jazzed up his bio to sell books IMO.
In 'Hoodwinked', he does give some good advice towards the end.
King Khalid military city was a partial U.S. project-oh there were a few big ones.
Top 12 Saudi Arabian construction contractors.
posted by clavdivs at 10:27 AM on March 1, 2011
I have no doubt that Perkins is shedding some light, I think he jazzed up his bio to sell books IMO.
In 'Hoodwinked', he does give some good advice towards the end.
King Khalid military city was a partial U.S. project-oh there were a few big ones.
Top 12 Saudi Arabian construction contractors.
posted by clavdivs at 10:27 AM on March 1, 2011
> Or, in some ways, the US in the 1865- 1893 2001 period.
FTFY. Y'know, I don't have a penny in the pot of US policy during most of that period, but that comment both sears and stings. Kudos, eriko!
posted by vhsiv at 10:27 AM on March 1, 2011
FTFY. Y'know, I don't have a penny in the pot of US policy during most of that period, but that comment both sears and stings. Kudos, eriko!
posted by vhsiv at 10:27 AM on March 1, 2011
I will never forget this story of the Saudi moral police preventing 15 girls from escaping a burning school. They all died.
posted by jcruelty at 10:38 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by jcruelty at 10:38 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I predict in the near future conservatives are going to take credit for these revolutions claiming that these countries were inspired by the freeing of Iraq.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:42 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:42 AM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Er... actually it does, as the mass murder was committed by the Saudi religious police who are sanctioned by the state.
posted by jcruelty at 10:44 AM on March 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by jcruelty at 10:44 AM on March 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that was certainly a tragedy, but it really bears no real useful mention here anymore than mentioning a mass murder in the USA when discussing high-level American politics, does it?
Except that mass murder in the US is neither government policy nor the law of the land.
posted by acb at 10:47 AM on March 1, 2011
Except that mass murder in the US is neither government policy nor the law of the land.
posted by acb at 10:47 AM on March 1, 2011
Indirectly, the deaths at the school do relate some; the whole thing was so horrendous that newspaper editors there published a lot of information about it and absolutely scathing comments. It was something of a watershed moment for the country's media.
People might be surprised by how much criticism the Saudi press relates about official doings, shortcomings there. That said, there ain't no criticizing the king, other guys at the very top.
posted by ambient2 at 10:49 AM on March 1, 2011
People might be surprised by how much criticism the Saudi press relates about official doings, shortcomings there. That said, there ain't no criticizing the king, other guys at the very top.
posted by ambient2 at 10:49 AM on March 1, 2011
The mutawwa are tolerated by the Saudis. There is significant backlash privately and publicly to that event and to them in general. It's very simplistic to trot out a tragic incident like that when trying to discuss things.
Then again, public opinion doesn't count for much there, at least in deciding how things are to be run.
posted by acb at 10:50 AM on March 1, 2011
Then again, public opinion doesn't count for much there, at least in deciding how things are to be run.
posted by acb at 10:50 AM on March 1, 2011
This is the kind of society that the US (now transnational) oil corporations want. It's not coincidence, not even a little bit, that most countries with large petrochemical deposits and heavy US corporate presence are exceedingly horrible.
Hey, stop talking about Canada like that!
posted by blue_beetle at 11:00 AM on March 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
Hey, stop talking about Canada like that!
posted by blue_beetle at 11:00 AM on March 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
There is a not-trivial number of Saudis who support the muttawah, officially known as The Commission to Promote Virtue and Prevent Vice.
That aside, it is at least somewhat relevant to the question of Saudi domestic spending. The rulers there more or less cut a deal with the religious conservatives, pay for the CPVPV salaries, offices, vehicles.
posted by ambient2 at 11:06 AM on March 1, 2011
That aside, it is at least somewhat relevant to the question of Saudi domestic spending. The rulers there more or less cut a deal with the religious conservatives, pay for the CPVPV salaries, offices, vehicles.
posted by ambient2 at 11:06 AM on March 1, 2011
I predict in the near future conservatives are going to take credit for these revolutions claiming that these countries were inspired by the freeing of Iraq.
I predict the opposite if they create true representative democracies things won't go so well for Western Oil interests that depend on thoroughly screwing the local population out of resource wealth.
But given they have the west's oil under their sand and Israel as a neighbour the odds of real democracy being allowed to break out anywhere in the middle east is about the same as GW finding Osama or OJ finding the killer.
posted by srboisvert at 11:08 AM on March 1, 2011
I predict the opposite if they create true representative democracies things won't go so well for Western Oil interests that depend on thoroughly screwing the local population out of resource wealth.
But given they have the west's oil under their sand and Israel as a neighbour the odds of real democracy being allowed to break out anywhere in the middle east is about the same as GW finding Osama or OJ finding the killer.
posted by srboisvert at 11:08 AM on March 1, 2011
Lets cut the bullshit about "cash reform" concerning the pasts possible future.
"It is not beyond guessing that this is the work of criminal American imperialism and international Zionism."
posted by clavdivs at 11:16 AM on March 1, 2011
"It is not beyond guessing that this is the work of criminal American imperialism and international Zionism."
posted by clavdivs at 11:16 AM on March 1, 2011
Hey, stop talking about Canada like that!
The House of Syncrude will not allow it!
posted by Hoopo at 11:24 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
The House of Syncrude will not allow it!
posted by Hoopo at 11:24 AM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I fully support pay cuts for public school teachers to fund this.
oooo! oooo! and $7/gallon gasoline!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:30 AM on March 1, 2011
oooo! oooo! and $7/gallon gasoline!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:30 AM on March 1, 2011
Um, ok.
posted by Burhanistan
Hit a nerve did I?
Forgot this event? No analogous relevance concerning social unrest with-in Saudi Arabia. Is religion not a factor today as was then? More specific, will the Grand Mosque again be made a focus/outlet for protest/violence?
I have questions.
posted by clavdivs at 11:56 AM on March 1, 2011
posted by Burhanistan
Hit a nerve did I?
Forgot this event? No analogous relevance concerning social unrest with-in Saudi Arabia. Is religion not a factor today as was then? More specific, will the Grand Mosque again be made a focus/outlet for protest/violence?
I have questions.
posted by clavdivs at 11:56 AM on March 1, 2011
I predict in the near future conservatives are going to take credit for these revolutions claiming that these countries were inspired by the freeing of Iraq.
It's already started.
posted by rusty at 12:49 PM on March 1, 2011
It's already started.
posted by rusty at 12:49 PM on March 1, 2011
They may be corrupt, hateful despots, but they're currently OUR corrupt, hatefusoftwoods...so I expect this will be met with a "Eh, what can you do?" from Washington.
I've never quite understood what people do expect the US government to do about this stuff, concretely. We could certainly cease supplying them with arms and establish much frostier diplomatic relations, and engage in more public critical. This would be morally satisfying. It would not, however, prevent the Saudi government from arming itself or spending its oil billions however it damn well pleases, or alter the fact that they are the only oil producing nation with sufficient spare capacity to sway markets, and can thus have tremendous sway over the global economy.
Sigh. I'm sorry, I probably sound like a tool. I just get so tired of these threads where people make snide jabs about our failure to live up to our ideals with seemingly little comprehension of the true costs of moral purity and the limits of our power. There is much the US fails in that I think we could do better, and certainly there are some costs we ought to be willing to pay. But it's not like the only reason evil bastards exist is because we fail to make an effort; evil bastards quite often have independent sources of power that we should find it quite difficult to defeat, even if we tried our damnedest. And sometimes the bastards aren't even evil; they're just against us for their own reasons....
posted by Diablevert at 12:49 PM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
I've never quite understood what people do expect the US government to do about this stuff, concretely. We could certainly cease supplying them with arms and establish much frostier diplomatic relations, and engage in more public critical. This would be morally satisfying. It would not, however, prevent the Saudi government from arming itself or spending its oil billions however it damn well pleases, or alter the fact that they are the only oil producing nation with sufficient spare capacity to sway markets, and can thus have tremendous sway over the global economy.
Sigh. I'm sorry, I probably sound like a tool. I just get so tired of these threads where people make snide jabs about our failure to live up to our ideals with seemingly little comprehension of the true costs of moral purity and the limits of our power. There is much the US fails in that I think we could do better, and certainly there are some costs we ought to be willing to pay. But it's not like the only reason evil bastards exist is because we fail to make an effort; evil bastards quite often have independent sources of power that we should find it quite difficult to defeat, even if we tried our damnedest. And sometimes the bastards aren't even evil; they're just against us for their own reasons....
posted by Diablevert at 12:49 PM on March 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Diablevert: While that's often true, the gist of this particular article is that the US government gives cash to all the members of the Saudi royal family, directly. Not that we support them by buying their oil. We literally dump cash on them. I mean, on top of all the other sweetheart deals and all the buying the oil.
Also, most (I'm pretty sure I can say "most." I'd guess it's over 50%) of the world's right-wing and nationalist dictators since WWII were either directly put in place by the US, or propped up and supported with our weapons and our money. The charge is not "failing to make an effort" to oppose them. The charge is putting them in power, mainly because our government believed they had to to combat the spread of communism. Usually this involved financing them, arming them, training their personal troops, and fighting or assassinating their enemies until there was no power left in the country strong enough to oppose them. Basically your view of American foreign policy is completely wrong, and is leading you to misunderstand what has brought the world to the configuration in which we find it today.
posted by rusty at 12:57 PM on March 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
Also, most (I'm pretty sure I can say "most." I'd guess it's over 50%) of the world's right-wing and nationalist dictators since WWII were either directly put in place by the US, or propped up and supported with our weapons and our money. The charge is not "failing to make an effort" to oppose them. The charge is putting them in power, mainly because our government believed they had to to combat the spread of communism. Usually this involved financing them, arming them, training their personal troops, and fighting or assassinating their enemies until there was no power left in the country strong enough to oppose them. Basically your view of American foreign policy is completely wrong, and is leading you to misunderstand what has brought the world to the configuration in which we find it today.
posted by rusty at 12:57 PM on March 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
While that's often true, the gist of this particular article is that the US government gives cash to all the members of the Saudi royal family, directly. Not that we support them by buying their oil.
Perhaps I have missed a crucial detail somewhere and you can correct me, but the main source of wealth for the royal family that the article discusses seems to be a Saudi government welfare fund which provides direct cash stipends to royals, which is administered by the Saudi Ministry of Finance? The US diplomatic cables describe how the fund works, but it's a part of the Saudi government.
posted by Diablevert at 1:19 PM on March 1, 2011
Perhaps I have missed a crucial detail somewhere and you can correct me, but the main source of wealth for the royal family that the article discusses seems to be a Saudi government welfare fund which provides direct cash stipends to royals, which is administered by the Saudi Ministry of Finance? The US diplomatic cables describe how the fund works, but it's a part of the Saudi government.
posted by Diablevert at 1:19 PM on March 1, 2011
not just financially but in terms of undermining social cohesion.
The religious police operate with an uneasy balance against the ruling sons of Saud.
Following the attack, the Saudi state implemented stricter enforcement of Islamic code.[3]
The House of Saud created the religious police and use it for thier protection. What is so obtuse about that.
posted by clavdivs at 1:19 PM on March 1, 2011
The religious police operate with an uneasy balance against the ruling sons of Saud.
Following the attack, the Saudi state implemented stricter enforcement of Islamic code.[3]
The House of Saud created the religious police and use it for thier protection. What is so obtuse about that.
posted by clavdivs at 1:19 PM on March 1, 2011
I predict in the near future conservatives are going to take credit for these revolutions claiming that these countries were inspired by the freeing of Iraq.
It's already started.
Another perspective: Some have linked the emergence of a strong human rights agenda in the Arab world with the policies of the last American president. In a way they are right: post-9/11 abuses overseen by the Bush administration were the tragedy that brought to light the urgency of claiming rights.
posted by homunculus at 1:21 PM on March 1, 2011
It's already started.
Another perspective: Some have linked the emergence of a strong human rights agenda in the Arab world with the policies of the last American president. In a way they are right: post-9/11 abuses overseen by the Bush administration were the tragedy that brought to light the urgency of claiming rights.
posted by homunculus at 1:21 PM on March 1, 2011
the gist of this particular article is that the US government gives cash to all the members of the Saudi royal family, directly.
Did I miss something? We (and others) buy their oil. They do as they see fit with the money.
In terms of other U.S. sources of income/corruption-based money, I can believe it's not 100-percent enforced or enforceable, but there are efforts made to address corruption/kickbacks/etc., in deals for arms, construction, etc.
Speaking of, BAE and Prince Bandar.
posted by ambient2 at 1:22 PM on March 1, 2011
Did I miss something? We (and others) buy their oil. They do as they see fit with the money.
In terms of other U.S. sources of income/corruption-based money, I can believe it's not 100-percent enforced or enforceable, but there are efforts made to address corruption/kickbacks/etc., in deals for arms, construction, etc.
Speaking of, BAE and Prince Bandar.
posted by ambient2 at 1:22 PM on March 1, 2011
The House of Saud created the religious police and use it for thier protection.
Incorrect. It has its own military force for that.
Religious police are something entirely different.
posted by ambient2 at 1:25 PM on March 1, 2011
Incorrect. It has its own military force for that.
Religious police are something entirely different.
posted by ambient2 at 1:25 PM on March 1, 2011
It's already started.
Written by Elliott Abrams, he of El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran-Contra, and the 2002 coup in Venezuela. What a shameless, detestable excuse for a man.
posted by Hoopo at 1:26 PM on March 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Written by Elliott Abrams, he of El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran-Contra, and the 2002 coup in Venezuela. What a shameless, detestable excuse for a man.
posted by Hoopo at 1:26 PM on March 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Gadhafi blames al-Qaida for manipulating clashes in Libya
Yemeni President blames unrest on US and Israel
Iran blames West for provoking unrest.
posted by clavdivs at 1:33 PM on March 1, 2011
Yemeni President blames unrest on US and Israel
Iran blames West for provoking unrest.
posted by clavdivs at 1:33 PM on March 1, 2011
Diablevert: I am stupid. You're right about the article. How embarrassing. Sorry about that.
I think the second part of my comment is still true, but I'm less certain now that I know how stupid I'm capable of being.
posted by rusty at 1:33 PM on March 1, 2011
I think the second part of my comment is still true, but I'm less certain now that I know how stupid I'm capable of being.
posted by rusty at 1:33 PM on March 1, 2011
Basically your view of American foreign policy is completely wrong, and is leading you to misunderstand what has brought the world to the configuration in which we find it today.
My comment was aimed more at current policy; whether the containment policy first posited by Kenan in the X letter was the correct course for the US to steer during the Cold War, and the merits of the individual tactical and strategic decisions which were made in support of this policy is an interesting subject for debate and I'd be happy to take it up in memail, but it seems like it might be a fairly big derail for a thread on the Saudi royal family.
posted by Diablevert at 1:34 PM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
My comment was aimed more at current policy; whether the containment policy first posited by Kenan in the X letter was the correct course for the US to steer during the Cold War, and the merits of the individual tactical and strategic decisions which were made in support of this policy is an interesting subject for debate and I'd be happy to take it up in memail, but it seems like it might be a fairly big derail for a thread on the Saudi royal family.
posted by Diablevert at 1:34 PM on March 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Incorrect. It has its own military force for that.
The religious police are really just military police?
There is no distinction?
Also, refer to Saudi response and Pakistani advise given during the 1979 Seige.
posted by clavdivs at 1:37 PM on March 1, 2011
The religious police are really just military police?
There is no distinction?
Also, refer to Saudi response and Pakistani advise given during the 1979 Seige.
posted by clavdivs at 1:37 PM on March 1, 2011
Why bring Joyce into this. The bullshit is masking these payouts as reformation.
posted by clavdivs at 1:39 PM on March 1, 2011
posted by clavdivs at 1:39 PM on March 1, 2011
So the "white robed kefiyah wearing gruff force of bastards set loose all over KSA ensuring Wahhabi standards of morality" have no role in protecting the Sauds' interest?
posted by clavdivs at 1:44 PM on March 1, 2011
posted by clavdivs at 1:44 PM on March 1, 2011
Man what an epic thread derail going on right now.
Does anyone have a link to the actual cable, titled "Saudi Royal Wealth: Where do they get all that money?"? I like primary sources.
posted by asymptotic at 1:46 PM on March 1, 2011
Does anyone have a link to the actual cable, titled "Saudi Royal Wealth: Where do they get all that money?"? I like primary sources.
posted by asymptotic at 1:46 PM on March 1, 2011
"Saudi Royal Wealth: Where do they get all that money?"
Common knowledge says oil.
posted by clavdivs at 1:48 PM on March 1, 2011
Common knowledge says oil.
posted by clavdivs at 1:48 PM on March 1, 2011
and some "land reform"
I cannot find the orginal cable perhaps Reuters has not released the primary document.
posted by clavdivs at 1:52 PM on March 1, 2011
I cannot find the orginal cable perhaps Reuters has not released the primary document.
posted by clavdivs at 1:52 PM on March 1, 2011
Among them: [...] simply, "borrowing from the banks, and not paying them back."
Hey, we have that here, too!
posted by Afroblanco at 1:54 PM on March 1, 2011
Hey, we have that here, too!
posted by Afroblanco at 1:54 PM on March 1, 2011
one mechanisms is called "reverse collection". Arms sales commissions, bribes on construction projects. Sales of liquor, visas, cocaine. My favorite is Azouzis historical theme park-4.6 billion$
so care to actully add some information to the thread Burchanistan?
posted by clavdivs at 2:29 PM on March 1, 2011
so care to actully add some information to the thread Burchanistan?
posted by clavdivs at 2:29 PM on March 1, 2011
Meanwhile in Belgium: "Belgium's Prince Laurent, stripped of his driving licence last week, came in for the wrath of parliament Thursday for grabbing a business-class seat with an economy-class ticket."
I call satire. Belgium doesn't have a working parliament.
Source: de Morgen, and the Belga News Agency.
In English:
"Belgium's Prince Laurent, stripped of his driving licence last week, came in for the wrath of parliament Thursday for grabbing a business-class seat with an economy-class ticket.
Asked by parliament to comment on the unprincely conduct, Prime Minister Yves Leterme called it "incorrect" and said he was "distancing myself" from the 47-year-old, a notorious traffic offender, Belga news agency said."
"Belgium's Prince Laurent has been blasted by his country's Prime Minister after taking up a business class seat when he had only paid for an economy fare."
"Apparently he likes to purchase economy class tickets when ever he travels, but once he is one the plane he demands that he be seated in Business Class (aka an upgrade) because he is a royal."
"Prince Laurent grumbled and called the crew "unprofessional." He also refused to pay for drinks, "leading Swedish passengers to do do the same.""
And: the Belgian Prince was caught speeding in a small Fiat: "Police stopped the prince after a speed camera captured his high performance Fiat Punto Abarth hurtling at 82 kilometres per hour (51mph) in a 50kph (31mph) urban speed zone."
This is what happens when you don't give unlimited cash stipends to royals: they have to travel economy class and drive subcompact cars.
posted by iviken at 1:18 AM on March 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
I call satire. Belgium doesn't have a working parliament.
Source: de Morgen, and the Belga News Agency.
In English:
"Belgium's Prince Laurent, stripped of his driving licence last week, came in for the wrath of parliament Thursday for grabbing a business-class seat with an economy-class ticket.
Asked by parliament to comment on the unprincely conduct, Prime Minister Yves Leterme called it "incorrect" and said he was "distancing myself" from the 47-year-old, a notorious traffic offender, Belga news agency said."
"Belgium's Prince Laurent has been blasted by his country's Prime Minister after taking up a business class seat when he had only paid for an economy fare."
"Apparently he likes to purchase economy class tickets when ever he travels, but once he is one the plane he demands that he be seated in Business Class (aka an upgrade) because he is a royal."
"Prince Laurent grumbled and called the crew "unprofessional." He also refused to pay for drinks, "leading Swedish passengers to do do the same.""
And: the Belgian Prince was caught speeding in a small Fiat: "Police stopped the prince after a speed camera captured his high performance Fiat Punto Abarth hurtling at 82 kilometres per hour (51mph) in a 50kph (31mph) urban speed zone."
This is what happens when you don't give unlimited cash stipends to royals: they have to travel economy class and drive subcompact cars.
posted by iviken at 1:18 AM on March 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is the kind of society that the US (now transnational) oil corporations want. It's not coincidence, not even a little bit, that most countries with large petrochemical deposits and heavy US corporate presence are exceedingly horrible.
Hey, stop talking aboutCanada Norway like that!
posted by iviken at 1:26 AM on March 2, 2011
Hey, stop talking about
posted by iviken at 1:26 AM on March 2, 2011
This is the kind of society that the US (now transnational) oil corporations want. It's not coincidence, not even a little bit, that most countries with large petrochemical deposits and heavy US corporate presence are exceedingly horrible.
Hey, stop talking aboutCanada Norway Texas like that!
posted by zippy at 7:15 PM on March 2, 2011
Hey, stop talking about
posted by zippy at 7:15 PM on March 2, 2011
Saudis mobilise thousands of troops to quell growing revolt.
posted by adamvasco at 11:29 AM on March 5, 2011
posted by adamvasco at 11:29 AM on March 5, 2011
Saudi Arabia frees Shia cleric ahead of 'day of rage'
posted by homunculus at 4:32 PM on March 7, 2011
posted by homunculus at 4:32 PM on March 7, 2011
Saudi Arabian security forces quell 'day of rage' protests
posted by homunculus at 1:40 PM on March 11, 2011
posted by homunculus at 1:40 PM on March 11, 2011
"Yesterday, police opened fire on protesters in the Eastern Province city of Qatif.
Here is why that location may be significant: In 2003, Robert Baer, a former CIA officer with twenty-one years service in the Middle East..."
posted by clavdivs at 2:06 PM on March 11, 2011
Here is why that location may be significant: In 2003, Robert Baer, a former CIA officer with twenty-one years service in the Middle East..."
posted by clavdivs at 2:06 PM on March 11, 2011
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posted by blucevalo at 8:28 AM on March 1, 2011