Plan 241
March 24, 2011 4:03 PM Subscribe
Five Alaskans have been arrested and charged with plotting to kill judges and State Troopers. At the time of their arrests, they had obtained illegal guns, grenades, and silencers. Schaefer Cox, the leader of the group, identifies himself with the Sovereign Citizen Movement and is a member of the Alaska Citizens Militia. The militia—one of hundreds of active “Patriot” Groups in the United States—maintains a website with pictures of bears, videos, and a list of Acts of War, which include “mandatory medical anything” and “involuntary involvement in anything.”
“Supply sergeant” William Fulton went missing five days after the arrests in Fairbanks. Until March 15th, he owned Drop Zone, an Anchorage military surplus store, bail bond agency, and security services firm. Drop Zone provided security for Tea Party candidate Joe Miller’s campaign events during the 2010 senate campaign, and detained and handcuffed a journalist covering an event at a public school (previously). Miller was criticized for his ties to the militia during the election. On March 12, he issued a statement denying connections to the group.
“Supply sergeant” William Fulton went missing five days after the arrests in Fairbanks. Until March 15th, he owned Drop Zone, an Anchorage military surplus store, bail bond agency, and security services firm. Drop Zone provided security for Tea Party candidate Joe Miller’s campaign events during the 2010 senate campaign, and detained and handcuffed a journalist covering an event at a public school (previously). Miller was criticized for his ties to the militia during the election. On March 12, he issued a statement denying connections to the group.
> involuntary involvement in anything
When I was seven years old I considered that an Act of War, too.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:11 PM on March 24, 2011 [53 favorites]
When I was seven years old I considered that an Act of War, too.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:11 PM on March 24, 2011 [53 favorites]
Miller was criticized for his ties to the militia during the election. On March 12, he issued a statement denying connections to the group.
How do you deny connections with a group that you basically outsourced your security to?
I deny any connections with Metafilter. I don't know any of you people and I'm not here right now. None of this is even happening.
posted by Avenger at 4:12 PM on March 24, 2011 [13 favorites]
How do you deny connections with a group that you basically outsourced your security to?
I deny any connections with Metafilter. I don't know any of you people and I'm not here right now. None of this is even happening.
posted by Avenger at 4:12 PM on March 24, 2011 [13 favorites]
“mandatory medical anything"
So now can we indict the Republicans for hate speech-levels of lying about healthcare reform?
posted by DU at 4:13 PM on March 24, 2011 [10 favorites]
So now can we indict the Republicans for hate speech-levels of lying about healthcare reform?
posted by DU at 4:13 PM on March 24, 2011 [10 favorites]
Just another isolated incident. Nothing to see here.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 4:14 PM on March 24, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by OverlappingElvis at 4:14 PM on March 24, 2011 [12 favorites]
I just popped in here to say "Mama Grizzly"
posted by KokuRyu at 4:19 PM on March 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 4:19 PM on March 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
I presume they're not cashing their dividend checks from the Alaskan Permanent Fund out of principle...?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:21 PM on March 24, 2011 [21 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:21 PM on March 24, 2011 [21 favorites]
Do you know how glad I am that this post opened with "Five Alaskans"?
I'm going to ask the Legislature to approve a new state motto: "Texas: Still Not as Crazy as Alaska".
posted by pineapple at 4:22 PM on March 24, 2011 [19 favorites]
I'm going to ask the Legislature to approve a new state motto: "Texas: Still Not as Crazy as Alaska".
posted by pineapple at 4:22 PM on March 24, 2011 [19 favorites]
Which pro-secessionist group was it that the ex-gov had direct ties to?
posted by edgeways at 4:25 PM on March 24, 2011
posted by edgeways at 4:25 PM on March 24, 2011
Which pro-secessionist group was it that the ex-gov had direct ties to?
The Alaska Independence Party. Slightly less crazy.
posted by charmcityblues at 4:26 PM on March 24, 2011
The Alaska Independence Party. Slightly less crazy.
posted by charmcityblues at 4:26 PM on March 24, 2011
"Granny is a domestic terrorist" could be a Warren Zevon song lyric.
posted by JaredSeth at 4:30 PM on March 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by JaredSeth at 4:30 PM on March 24, 2011 [11 favorites]
Lolaska.
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:31 PM on March 24, 2011 [13 favorites]
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:31 PM on March 24, 2011 [13 favorites]
Dumb question: isn't "sovereign citizen" kind of a contradiction in terms? How can you declare yourself sovereign and still be a "Patriot"? Or am I conflating unrelated information from the FPP?
posted by Hoopo at 4:31 PM on March 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Hoopo at 4:31 PM on March 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
Also why would they buy silencers? Don't silencers basically not work?
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:33 PM on March 24, 2011
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:33 PM on March 24, 2011
Hoopo, if you're looking for consistent, logical thought processes, the Sovereign Citizen Movement is probably not the organization you want to start with.
posted by lekvar at 4:34 PM on March 24, 2011 [17 favorites]
posted by lekvar at 4:34 PM on March 24, 2011 [17 favorites]
Lolaska.
Easier to laugh, perhaps, with them in the rearview mirror.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:34 PM on March 24, 2011
Easier to laugh, perhaps, with them in the rearview mirror.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:34 PM on March 24, 2011
They're patriots of a country that only exists in their minds.
posted by GuyZero at 4:34 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 4:34 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I imagine Alaska's Grizzly Bears appreciate being used yet again as the symbol of some wingnut's agenda.
posted by steamynachos at 4:35 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by steamynachos at 4:35 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Don't silencers basically not work
Silencers can reduce the noise made from subsonic ammo. They don't work if your bullet is going at supersonic speeds.
posted by wildcrdj at 4:35 PM on March 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Silencers can reduce the noise made from subsonic ammo. They don't work if your bullet is going at supersonic speeds.
posted by wildcrdj at 4:35 PM on March 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Sovereign Patriot Citizen costs less to put on a business card than Unreasonably Terrified Self-Centered Idiot Who Hates Everyone But Especially Blacks And Gays.
posted by dantsea at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011 [17 favorites]
posted by dantsea at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011 [17 favorites]
.22LR, for example, is readily available with subsonic loads. Put a silencer on a 22LR pistol and you'd have a fairly quiet gun, obviously not "silent" though.
posted by wildcrdj at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011
posted by wildcrdj at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011
So, wait, are the pictures of bears symbolic or are they war bears that they'll ride to fight big government?
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
Dumb question: isn't "sovereign citizen" kind of a contradiction in terms? How can you declare yourself sovereign and still be a "Patriot"? Or am I conflating unrelated information from the FPP?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011
World English DictionaryAs in (one presumes) "The (As Yet Theoretical) Sovereign State of Alaska"
sovereign (ˈsɒvrɪn)
— n
1. a person exercising supreme authority, esp a monarch
2. a former British gold coin worth one pound sterling
— adj
3. supreme in rank or authority: a sovereign lord
4. excellent or outstanding: a sovereign remedy
5. of, relating to, or characteristic of a sovereign
6. independent of outside authority: a sovereign state
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011
Easier to laugh, perhaps, with them in the rearview mirror.
Oh I don't think the situation is particularly funny, "Lolaska" just works really well.
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011
Oh I don't think the situation is particularly funny, "Lolaska" just works really well.
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:37 PM on March 24, 2011
LOLIDIOTS, more like.
posted by vidur at 4:40 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by vidur at 4:40 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
I presume they're not cashing their dividend checks from the Alaskan Permanent Fund out of principle...?
I seem to recall Sarah Palin bragging how she negotiated with the oil companies so that Alaskans got a bigger pay-out from the fund. Citizens maintaining ownership of natural resources has always been a core Republican principle, hasn't it?
Oh, wait, no, that's more a Hugo Chavez kind of thing.
posted by benito.strauss at 4:44 PM on March 24, 2011 [20 favorites]
I seem to recall Sarah Palin bragging how she negotiated with the oil companies so that Alaskans got a bigger pay-out from the fund. Citizens maintaining ownership of natural resources has always been a core Republican principle, hasn't it?
Oh, wait, no, that's more a Hugo Chavez kind of thing.
posted by benito.strauss at 4:44 PM on March 24, 2011 [20 favorites]
involuntary involvement in anything.
Well, by birth they were involuntarily given basic human rights, can we revoke those, too?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 4:44 PM on March 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Well, by birth they were involuntarily given basic human rights, can we revoke those, too?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 4:44 PM on March 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Previously and previously-er on the "Sovereign Citizen" movement.
posted by indubitable at 4:44 PM on March 24, 2011
posted by indubitable at 4:44 PM on March 24, 2011
Whenever I hear about subsonic bullets, I cannot help but think of this wonderful passage in that wonderful book by Richard Brautigan, A Confederate General From Big Sur:
"Yeah, Jesse," Lee Mellon said. "I know. But we got a pregnant woman down there in the cabin. My wife, that's my wife down there, and I love her. She's ready to have a baby at any time. She's two weeks over. We'd come up here, get in the truck to take her to Monterey so she could have a doctor and a nice clean hospital, and then there wouldn't be any gas in the truck and the baby would die.
"No, Jesse, no - no, no," Lee Mellon said. "For killing my baby son, I think I'd better shoot them now. Hell, I can make them put their heads together and use just one bullet. I got a slow one here. Take about five minutes to go through their heads. Hurt like hell."
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:46 PM on March 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
"Yeah, Jesse," Lee Mellon said. "I know. But we got a pregnant woman down there in the cabin. My wife, that's my wife down there, and I love her. She's ready to have a baby at any time. She's two weeks over. We'd come up here, get in the truck to take her to Monterey so she could have a doctor and a nice clean hospital, and then there wouldn't be any gas in the truck and the baby would die.
"No, Jesse, no - no, no," Lee Mellon said. "For killing my baby son, I think I'd better shoot them now. Hell, I can make them put their heads together and use just one bullet. I got a slow one here. Take about five minutes to go through their heads. Hurt like hell."
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:46 PM on March 24, 2011 [5 favorites]
No doubt they're some of those union thugs we've been hearing so much about.
posted by scody at 4:49 PM on March 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by scody at 4:49 PM on March 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
Dumb question: isn't "sovereign citizen" kind of a contradiction in terms? How can you declare yourself sovereign and still be a "Patriot"? Or am I conflating unrelated information from the FPP?
It's actually the name of a larger political movement where people think they can escape the jurisdiction of the courts based on a crackpot legal theory.
It's the bastard stepchild of the Posse Comitatus movement.
posted by clarknova at 4:52 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's actually the name of a larger political movement where people think they can escape the jurisdiction of the courts based on a crackpot legal theory.
It's the bastard stepchild of the Posse Comitatus movement.
posted by clarknova at 4:52 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
No pattern here at all. Just a bunch of lone wolves. [pdf warning] And don't you say otherwise or you're a liberal communist sympathizer too.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:54 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:54 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm going to ask the Legislature to approve a new state motto: "Texas: Still Not as Crazy as Alaska".
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that is already the proud state motto of Alaska.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:55 PM on March 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that is already the proud state motto of Alaska.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:55 PM on March 24, 2011 [6 favorites]
§ 1481. Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions
Go ahead. We won't miss you.
posted by swift at 4:59 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Go ahead. We won't miss you.
posted by swift at 4:59 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Never fear, sovereign citizen! Don't retreat, reload!
posted by nevercalm at 5:04 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by nevercalm at 5:04 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Can we call it "Terrorism" yet? Or are they still the wrong color and religion?
posted by quin at 5:12 PM on March 24, 2011 [28 favorites]
posted by quin at 5:12 PM on March 24, 2011 [28 favorites]
Needs more Todd Palin.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:21 PM on March 24, 2011
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:21 PM on March 24, 2011
The closing scene of The Bourne Identity, where Chris Cooper gets shot, is a really accurate silencer sound.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:23 PM on March 24, 2011
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:23 PM on March 24, 2011
The closing scene of The Bourne Identity, where Chris Cooper gets shot, is a really accurate silencer sound.
Here you go
posted by Ryvar at 5:37 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Here you go
posted by Ryvar at 5:37 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just another isolated incident. Nothing to see here.
Can we call it "Terrorism" yet? Or are they still the wrong color and religion?
Upper Peninsula man arrested for package left at Detroit Federal building.
And then there was the package at an MLK Day parade in Washington state.
But remember, the Muslims and the Left are worse.
posted by NorthernLite at 5:38 PM on March 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
Can we call it "Terrorism" yet? Or are they still the wrong color and religion?
Upper Peninsula man arrested for package left at Detroit Federal building.
And then there was the package at an MLK Day parade in Washington state.
But remember, the Muslims and the Left are worse.
posted by NorthernLite at 5:38 PM on March 24, 2011 [7 favorites]
Beat me by seconds, Ryvar. *dies*
posted by BeerFilter at 5:39 PM on March 24, 2011
posted by BeerFilter at 5:39 PM on March 24, 2011
I just want to know which imam was responsible for radicalizing them.
posted by uosuaq at 5:47 PM on March 24, 2011 [19 favorites]
posted by uosuaq at 5:47 PM on March 24, 2011 [19 favorites]
Here you go
Thanks. I was typing on the bus earlier ... what I wanted to point out about that shot from Bourne was that the sound effect guys had captured something that most people forget -- the sound of the slide on an automatic. The metal slide and the pistol's spring racking back and forth make lots of noise, regardless of what doohickey you place over the barrel to capture the gases.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:54 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Thanks. I was typing on the bus earlier ... what I wanted to point out about that shot from Bourne was that the sound effect guys had captured something that most people forget -- the sound of the slide on an automatic. The metal slide and the pistol's spring racking back and forth make lots of noise, regardless of what doohickey you place over the barrel to capture the gases.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:54 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Wow, they were going to make wanted posters with state troopers on them? Man I love people whose stupidity pretty much guarantees their impotence.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:14 PM on March 24, 2011
posted by oneirodynia at 6:14 PM on March 24, 2011
They're patriots of a country that only exists in their minds.
What, Timecube has an army now?
posted by KingEdRa at 6:33 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
What, Timecube has an army now?
posted by KingEdRa at 6:33 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, they're inalienable, which could be read as irrevocable.
I suspect their right to liberty will be revoked in the near future. That might impact their pursuit of happiness as well.
posted by TedW at 6:39 PM on March 24, 2011
I suspect their right to liberty will be revoked in the near future. That might impact their pursuit of happiness as well.
posted by TedW at 6:39 PM on March 24, 2011
Upper Peninsula man arrested for package left at Detroit Federal building.
See, it says "left". Can't trust them libruls.
posted by ambulocetus at 6:42 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
See, it says "left". Can't trust them libruls.
posted by ambulocetus at 6:42 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
I just realized: these people are going to try to use their own fruitcake tactics when they stand trial. I hope the judge allows cameras because this is going to be hilarious.
posted by clarknova at 6:47 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by clarknova at 6:47 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
The closing scene of The Bourne Identity, where Chris Cooper gets shot, is a really accurate silencer sound.
The guy didn't police his rounds, though. Pretty sloppy for a super-spy.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:57 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
maintains a website with pictures of bears
Dammit. If you're going to promise me pictures of bears, you'd better deliver!
posted by hippybear at 6:58 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Dammit. If you're going to promise me pictures of bears, you'd better deliver!
posted by hippybear at 6:58 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
What are the odds of the House of Representatives holding hearings on the danger posed by radicalized right-wing militias?
posted by EarBucket at 7:08 PM on March 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by EarBucket at 7:08 PM on March 24, 2011 [3 favorites]
General comments make these guys out to be stupid and therefore a non threat.
They might be stupid, but there's enough of them that they'll slip through the safety nets once or twice a year. God help anyone who happens to be around them when they do fall through.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:10 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
They might be stupid, but there's enough of them that they'll slip through the safety nets once or twice a year. God help anyone who happens to be around them when they do fall through.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:10 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
"involuntary involvement in anything."
Good. Get off my fuckin' socialist roads. Use your magic Galtcopter to get from place to place.
posted by notsnot at 7:13 PM on March 24, 2011 [27 favorites]
Good. Get off my fuckin' socialist roads. Use your magic Galtcopter to get from place to place.
posted by notsnot at 7:13 PM on March 24, 2011 [27 favorites]
>What are the odds of the House of Representatives holding hearings on the danger posed by radicalized right-wing militias?
I'm afraid they've already spoken on that particular issue
posted by Slackermagee at 7:14 PM on March 24, 2011
I'm afraid they've already spoken on that particular issue
posted by Slackermagee at 7:14 PM on March 24, 2011
The closing scene of The Bourne Identity, where Chris Cooper gets shot, is a really accurate silencer sound.
For a supersonic or subsonic round?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:26 PM on March 24, 2011
For a supersonic or subsonic round?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:26 PM on March 24, 2011
Handgun rounds are often subsonic. Relatively low power, fired from a short barrel usually = subsonic. The sound from The Bourne Identity sounds about right.
I got to shoot a full auto .45 MAC10 once with a silencer. It was quiet enough that it could be shot sans ear protection, without fear of hearing damage. Regardless, it was not particularly stealthy. The cycling of the bolt makes a lot of CLACKCLACKCLACK noise. And the bullets hitting the target downrange was also surprisingly loud.
It was an interesting experience. Nothing like that typical thoop sound effect often used in movies and tv shows. Long guns with silencers are another matter. I guess they might be quiet enough that one could get away without hearing protection. But supersonic bullets typical of long guns make a fairly distinctive crack sound. Persons unfamiliar with the sound might not recognize it. But it is a telltale sound.
posted by 2N2222 at 7:42 PM on March 24, 2011
I got to shoot a full auto .45 MAC10 once with a silencer. It was quiet enough that it could be shot sans ear protection, without fear of hearing damage. Regardless, it was not particularly stealthy. The cycling of the bolt makes a lot of CLACKCLACKCLACK noise. And the bullets hitting the target downrange was also surprisingly loud.
It was an interesting experience. Nothing like that typical thoop sound effect often used in movies and tv shows. Long guns with silencers are another matter. I guess they might be quiet enough that one could get away without hearing protection. But supersonic bullets typical of long guns make a fairly distinctive crack sound. Persons unfamiliar with the sound might not recognize it. But it is a telltale sound.
posted by 2N2222 at 7:42 PM on March 24, 2011
Bears, people. Bears
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:55 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:55 PM on March 24, 2011 [2 favorites]
Can I just ask how many Liberty Dollars they were holding at the time of their arrest?
posted by newdaddy at 8:02 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by newdaddy at 8:02 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh, hey, are these guys terrorists? Because if they are, they don't have any right to a speedy trial (think geologic timescales) or to know what they're charged with, or to hear the evidence against them, or heck, even to hear Miranda. Because of, you know, terrorism.
posted by newdaddy at 8:08 PM on March 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by newdaddy at 8:08 PM on March 24, 2011 [4 favorites]
Its been added to this long list.
Wow- there are some pretty shocking items on that (very long) list- thanks for linking it!
Most shocking item that I read:
February 22, 2011—A participant at a town hall meeting hosted by U.S. Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA) asks the Congressman, "Who is going to shoot Obama?" After a great deal of laughter, another man in the audience states, "We all want to." There is more laughter. After the laughter dies down, Rep. Broun then responds, "Next question." There is more laughter. The Congressman offers no additional comments on the question.
posted by ianhattwick at 8:22 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Wow- there are some pretty shocking items on that (very long) list- thanks for linking it!
Most shocking item that I read:
February 22, 2011—A participant at a town hall meeting hosted by U.S. Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA) asks the Congressman, "Who is going to shoot Obama?" After a great deal of laughter, another man in the audience states, "We all want to." There is more laughter. After the laughter dies down, Rep. Broun then responds, "Next question." There is more laughter. The Congressman offers no additional comments on the question.
posted by ianhattwick at 8:22 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
You know people are going around saying "when will people relaize that the fundies in the Republican Party do not have their best interests at heart?"
In Alaska? About now... The comments are comedy gold.
posted by fshgrl at 9:11 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
In Alaska? About now... The comments are comedy gold.
posted by fshgrl at 9:11 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
The guy didn't police his rounds, though.
Google's got nothing - what does this mean?
posted by Meatbomb at 9:58 PM on March 24, 2011
Google's got nothing - what does this mean?
posted by Meatbomb at 9:58 PM on March 24, 2011
If this keeps up, Fark is going to need an Alaska category to go with the Florida one.
posted by happyroach at 9:59 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by happyroach at 9:59 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Meatbomb, "The guy didn't police his rounds" means that he didn't pick up the empty shells that got ejected from his pistol. A sophisticated assassin would not leave such evidence lying around at the scene of the shooting.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 10:18 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 10:18 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
The threat of America's nativist far right; While Peter King holds hearings on homegrown jihadists, the growing menace of white supremacist terror goes unremarked.
Outing dominiomism
posted by adamvasco at 12:46 AM on March 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Outing dominiomism
posted by adamvasco at 12:46 AM on March 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Re: the silencer issue: Here in Norway (and in Germany and probably other European states) silencers on firearms are about as controversial as silencers on cars, and for excactly the same reasons: They save your hearing and reduce noise pollution.
Many, if not most, of the younger generation of hunters here in Norway use silenced or supressed weapons to save on their hearing.
Here's a link to a Norwegian web shop selling rifle supressors. Don't order here if you're a US citizen, as you'll be in deep trouble with the ATF!
I suspect that US lawmakers based their decision to heavily control silencers on evidence gathered by watching Hollywood movies...
posted by Harald74 at 2:14 AM on March 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Many, if not most, of the younger generation of hunters here in Norway use silenced or supressed weapons to save on their hearing.
Here's a link to a Norwegian web shop selling rifle supressors. Don't order here if you're a US citizen, as you'll be in deep trouble with the ATF!
I suspect that US lawmakers based their decision to heavily control silencers on evidence gathered by watching Hollywood movies...
posted by Harald74 at 2:14 AM on March 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Total firearms derail - the weapon in The Bourne Identity is a Beretta 92FS w/Gemtech suppressor firing subsonic rounds and this is what it sounds like IRL. Also - you don't police the casings (not the rounds - they are in someone!) because a) it takes too long to find them - they fly a long way and it's dark and you just shot somebody on a public street and b) you will toss the gun down a drain or in a dumpster so it's not in your possession as soon as possible. The last thing you want is to have a firearm in your possession that matches the ballistics of one used in a homicide. Did you learn nothing from watching Chris and Snoop in The Wire?
posted by longbaugh at 3:27 AM on March 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 3:27 AM on March 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
So it seems website design is not considered a survivalist priority.
posted by the noob at 4:58 AM on March 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by the noob at 4:58 AM on March 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
These folks make the rest of us anarchists look bad...
posted by AndrewKemendo at 5:20 AM on March 25, 2011
posted by AndrewKemendo at 5:20 AM on March 25, 2011
Yay for crazy! I'm headed home in three weeks!
posted by Belle O'Cosity at 6:30 AM on March 25, 2011
posted by Belle O'Cosity at 6:30 AM on March 25, 2011
longbaugh- that's amazing. Unless there is some audio magic going on, that's no louder than someone beating a rug with a corn broom. You can clearly hear the clink of the casings.
posted by gjc at 6:59 AM on March 25, 2011
posted by gjc at 6:59 AM on March 25, 2011
What are the odds of the House of Representatives holding hearings on the danger posed by radicalized right-wing militias?
I'm afraid they've already spoken on that particular issue
And they're doing what about it, exactly? Oh wait, I forgot. Labor unions and healthcare are scarier than a bunch of homegrown TERRORISTS with guns.
I cannot, will not take "homeland security" seriously until they start treating these people as nastily as they would someone like, say, Peter Watts (remember that particular bit of insanity?).
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:21 AM on March 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm afraid they've already spoken on that particular issue
And they're doing what about it, exactly? Oh wait, I forgot. Labor unions and healthcare are scarier than a bunch of homegrown TERRORISTS with guns.
I cannot, will not take "homeland security" seriously until they start treating these people as nastily as they would someone like, say, Peter Watts (remember that particular bit of insanity?).
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:21 AM on March 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Jurisdictionally, it's an FBI problem. Homeland security has virtually nothing to do with terrorist crimes.
Based on the amount of recordings they've got, it will be even sillier when the identity of the informant or undercover agent comes out. If this goes like a lot of other cases, the inside man will have provided most of the half-wit ideas these clowns acted out. I'd hazard a guess that the FBI had informants from early on and the investigation was underway long before the firearms charge.
The FBI keeps close tabs on these sort of bozos because it would be very bad press for serious crimes to happen after investigative reports were filed. Hence when it comes to prosecution, they have a ton of recordings, etc. Once the FBI sees violent potential, they work pretty damn hard to make sure the militialoons don't get anybody hurt.
It's the lone wolves (like the recent Spokane bomber) or the very small and secretive groups (like the Phineas Priests) that get out of control.
The result is that the accused in most terrorism prevention cases look like complete idiots.
Ties to local right-wing politicians is the norm, rather than the exception. This is one of the reasons why there aren't hearings on these goons. There would be far to many red faces in the Republican party. I mean, for crissake, look at Tod Palin for an exemplar of nutcase.
Damn near every militia bust has some elected wingnuts soiling themselves.
posted by warbaby at 7:38 AM on March 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Based on the amount of recordings they've got, it will be even sillier when the identity of the informant or undercover agent comes out. If this goes like a lot of other cases, the inside man will have provided most of the half-wit ideas these clowns acted out. I'd hazard a guess that the FBI had informants from early on and the investigation was underway long before the firearms charge.
The FBI keeps close tabs on these sort of bozos because it would be very bad press for serious crimes to happen after investigative reports were filed. Hence when it comes to prosecution, they have a ton of recordings, etc. Once the FBI sees violent potential, they work pretty damn hard to make sure the militialoons don't get anybody hurt.
It's the lone wolves (like the recent Spokane bomber) or the very small and secretive groups (like the Phineas Priests) that get out of control.
The result is that the accused in most terrorism prevention cases look like complete idiots.
Ties to local right-wing politicians is the norm, rather than the exception. This is one of the reasons why there aren't hearings on these goons. There would be far to many red faces in the Republican party. I mean, for crissake, look at Tod Palin for an exemplar of nutcase.
Damn near every militia bust has some elected wingnuts soiling themselves.
posted by warbaby at 7:38 AM on March 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
The only way I can make sense of the mindset is to imagine multiple personalities...:
Personality 1: I love America!
Personality 2: Let's kill some Americans!
Personality 3: lolwut?
posted by LordSludge at 7:44 AM on March 25, 2011
Personality 1: I love America!
Personality 2: Let's kill some Americans!
Personality 3: lolwut?
posted by LordSludge at 7:44 AM on March 25, 2011
The indictment is really humiliating.
Evidently, the feds thought so little of these clowns, they tossed them back to the Alaskans to prosecute. Talk about adding insult to injury.
posted by warbaby at 7:59 AM on March 25, 2011
Evidently, the feds thought so little of these clowns, they tossed them back to the Alaskans to prosecute. Talk about adding insult to injury.
posted by warbaby at 7:59 AM on March 25, 2011
The federal indictments are mentioned in this DoJ press release (PDF), but I haven't been able to find them online.
The federal charges are conspiracy and possession. The conspiracy charges are, as usual, iffy at trial, but the possession is a slam dunk. All they have to do is introduce the contraband in evidence and that's it.
I'm a little puzzled by the overlap between the state and federal charges. I guess the state charges are a fallback if some or all of the federal charges don't lead to a conviction.
The gummint is very very unhappy with these sovereigns.
It also looks like the "unnamed Anchorage weapons source" who sold them some of the contraband is very likely one of the informants/undercover agents.
posted by warbaby at 8:15 AM on March 25, 2011
The federal charges are conspiracy and possession. The conspiracy charges are, as usual, iffy at trial, but the possession is a slam dunk. All they have to do is introduce the contraband in evidence and that's it.
I'm a little puzzled by the overlap between the state and federal charges. I guess the state charges are a fallback if some or all of the federal charges don't lead to a conviction.
The gummint is very very unhappy with these sovereigns.
It also looks like the "unnamed Anchorage weapons source" who sold them some of the contraband is very likely one of the informants/undercover agents.
posted by warbaby at 8:15 AM on March 25, 2011
Per a military guy I know, silencers (he prefers the term "suppressors") can be quite useful in that they muffle the noise of a gunshot and make it more difficult to to guess where the shooter is based on the sound. He says this is pretty handy in some situations.
He also says that anyone who thinks a suppressor will cut it down to that little "pffft" noise you see in the movies is in for a big surprise. I suspect that the idiots were probably hoping for a little "pfft" noise.
As for the morons in question, I think they'll be shocked when the Judge in their case does not throw it out when they pull their secret legal weapon and state that the court can't possibly have jurisdiction over them because because the flag in the courtroom has gold fringe.
I'm not stupid enough to hope that this will hurt the crazy governor at all.
posted by sotonohito at 8:18 AM on March 25, 2011
He also says that anyone who thinks a suppressor will cut it down to that little "pffft" noise you see in the movies is in for a big surprise. I suspect that the idiots were probably hoping for a little "pfft" noise.
As for the morons in question, I think they'll be shocked when the Judge in their case does not throw it out when they pull their secret legal weapon and state that the court can't possibly have jurisdiction over them because because the flag in the courtroom has gold fringe.
I'm not stupid enough to hope that this will hurt the crazy governor at all.
posted by sotonohito at 8:18 AM on March 25, 2011
Can we use these guys as pawns? Throw them into GitMo, build up some Tea Party resentment to "unlawful detainment" etc., get them to shoot down the OMGTERRIST argument themselves, and, finally, cave to conservative pressure to close down GitMo. Ta dah!
posted by LordSludge at 8:23 AM on March 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by LordSludge at 8:23 AM on March 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Further silencer/suppressor derail - iirc in that video the fellow us using 147-grain 9x19mm Parabellum subsonic rounds (the normal weight of a 9mm para round is around 124 grains) and the suppressor is dry. Gemtech are a well respected manufacturer of QD (Quick-Detach) suppressors. With a well made suppressor you can probably knock ~20-30dB off the noise of a gunshot (depending on whether it was initially a supersonic or subsonic round obviously).
A wet suppressor, as opposed to the dry suppressor used in the video use oil, grease or some other fluid to further abate the sound by cooling and thus reducing the noise generated by supersonic gasses contained between the baffles of the suppressor. It also drips out the end of the suppressor and reduces dust kickup if you're shooting prone which is all good.
The best suppressed weapons are those designed from the get go to be that way - the Sterling L34A1 and H&K MP5SD series used to be amongst the best. Several modern long and short arms use mechanical hold-open devices to prevent the sound of the action "clacking" open and closed when loading or ejecting (the S&W Mark 22 Mod 0 "Hush Puppy" and the H&K Mark 23 Mod 0 are good examples of this). This then requires manual cycling of the action, essentially re-cocking the weapon after each shot is fired.
Other weapons have introduced further adjustments such as adjustable gas vents that reduces ordinary rounds to subsonic velocity regardless of whether a suppressor was mounted. To my knowledge the prototype H&K MP2000 was the first to do so but other specialist firearms are now introducing this feature. Older suppressors used to have extremely short lifetimes. The Mark 22 Mod 0 suppressor could fire less than 10 standard 9mm rounds before the baffles were knacked. Modern suppressors are "maintenance free*" and have lives of 10,000 rounds or more.
I'll recommend the wiki article on suppressors which is surprisingly good and mostly free of bs. I'll "silence" myself right now because this derail is probably really annoying and my knowledge isn't current at all.
*nothing firearms related is maintenance free. Not unless you want something bad to happen...
posted by longbaugh at 8:39 AM on March 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
A wet suppressor, as opposed to the dry suppressor used in the video use oil, grease or some other fluid to further abate the sound by cooling and thus reducing the noise generated by supersonic gasses contained between the baffles of the suppressor. It also drips out the end of the suppressor and reduces dust kickup if you're shooting prone which is all good.
The best suppressed weapons are those designed from the get go to be that way - the Sterling L34A1 and H&K MP5SD series used to be amongst the best. Several modern long and short arms use mechanical hold-open devices to prevent the sound of the action "clacking" open and closed when loading or ejecting (the S&W Mark 22 Mod 0 "Hush Puppy" and the H&K Mark 23 Mod 0 are good examples of this). This then requires manual cycling of the action, essentially re-cocking the weapon after each shot is fired.
Other weapons have introduced further adjustments such as adjustable gas vents that reduces ordinary rounds to subsonic velocity regardless of whether a suppressor was mounted. To my knowledge the prototype H&K MP2000 was the first to do so but other specialist firearms are now introducing this feature. Older suppressors used to have extremely short lifetimes. The Mark 22 Mod 0 suppressor could fire less than 10 standard 9mm rounds before the baffles were knacked. Modern suppressors are "maintenance free*" and have lives of 10,000 rounds or more.
I'll recommend the wiki article on suppressors which is surprisingly good and mostly free of bs. I'll "silence" myself right now because this derail is probably really annoying and my knowledge isn't current at all.
*nothing firearms related is maintenance free. Not unless you want something bad to happen...
posted by longbaugh at 8:39 AM on March 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm going to ask the Legislature to approve a new state motto: "Texas: Still Not as Crazy as Alaska or Arizona."
FTFY.
(I'd sign that petition.)
posted by threeturtles at 9:49 AM on March 25, 2011
FTFY.
(I'd sign that petition.)
posted by threeturtles at 9:49 AM on March 25, 2011
We're not all bat shit insane around here, you know. Well, maybe we are, but some of us are bat shit insane on the other end of the political spectrum. Unless the spectrum is circular, in which case I'm not that different from these dudes. One day I will live again amongst the sane...
posted by madred at 1:31 PM on March 25, 2011
posted by madred at 1:31 PM on March 25, 2011
These folks make the rest of us anarchists look bad...
Impossible! Black is always in style.
posted by Hoopo at 1:43 AM on March 26, 2011
Impossible! Black is always in style.
posted by Hoopo at 1:43 AM on March 26, 2011
« Older Lying prosecutors in Indiana | Conviction Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Artw at 4:11 PM on March 24, 2011 [1 favorite]