Famous in Belgium
December 1, 2011 2:10 AM Subscribe
After a record-breaking year-and-a-half of negotiations to form a Belgian government following the June 2010 general elections [previously], a six-party coalition has finally reached an agreement. While this is noteworthy enough, the character who has finally achieved the seemingly impossible and is set to become Belgium's first Francophone Prime Minister since 1974 is possibly even more interesting: meet Elio di Rupo.
The leader of the Francophone Socialist Party (in Belgium parties are split across linguistic as well as ideological lines) is the seventh child of an immigrant Italian coal miner whose accidental death when Elio was one-year-old left the family in utter destitution, forcing his mother to leave three of his siblings to the care of a nearby orphanage. Young Elio managed nonetheless to study his way to a PhD in chemistry. He then entered politics in the notoriously crooked and fractious Parti Socialiste and, after fighting his way to the top, proceeded to ruthlessly uproot its most notorious local barons. Oh, and he's also openly homosexual. And likes to wear bowties.
The leader of the Francophone Socialist Party (in Belgium parties are split across linguistic as well as ideological lines) is the seventh child of an immigrant Italian coal miner whose accidental death when Elio was one-year-old left the family in utter destitution, forcing his mother to leave three of his siblings to the care of a nearby orphanage. Young Elio managed nonetheless to study his way to a PhD in chemistry. He then entered politics in the notoriously crooked and fractious Parti Socialiste and, after fighting his way to the top, proceeded to ruthlessly uproot its most notorious local barons. Oh, and he's also openly homosexual. And likes to wear bowties.
From the BBC article:
The separate Dutch- and French-speaking wings of the Socialists, Christian Democrats and Liberals completed the last major hurdle, an austerity budget, on Saturday.
No: They are completely separate parties. The Christian Democrats split in the late 60s/early 70s over the Leuven Affair and the Liberals and Socialists soon followed suit. Joëlle Milquet, president of the French-speaking CDH (which has replaced "Christian" with "humanist" in its name) from 1995 to 2011, was often in sustained conflict with Yves Leterme, head of the Flemish CD&V ("Christian Democrat and Flemish) party.
posted by dhens at 2:54 AM on December 1, 2011
The separate Dutch- and French-speaking wings of the Socialists, Christian Democrats and Liberals completed the last major hurdle, an austerity budget, on Saturday.
No: They are completely separate parties. The Christian Democrats split in the late 60s/early 70s over the Leuven Affair and the Liberals and Socialists soon followed suit. Joëlle Milquet, president of the French-speaking CDH (which has replaced "Christian" with "humanist" in its name) from 1995 to 2011, was often in sustained conflict with Yves Leterme, head of the Flemish CD&V ("Christian Democrat and Flemish) party.
posted by dhens at 2:54 AM on December 1, 2011
they keep talking about Belgium as a ideal of bilingualism
I am a huge fan of Belgium, but I don't think they have it all worked out yet.
As a non-Belgium and non-European writing from a big country next-door to Belgium, I see:
- A large number of people who are not functionally bilingual, so they do not move easily between social circles or job opportunities (in my experience the monolinguals seem to be predominantly Francophone, perhaps because France is so close and so large?)
- Strong cultural differences between the French and Flemish speaking communities
- By extension, there is a lot of misunderstanding and dislike, or perhaps rivalry. These sentiments would be best clarified by a local...
I'm not sure the political resolution really says anything about where the linguistic divisions would head, but at least the country may have one national government again. Good thing or not, who am I to say? A lot of Belgians I know (mostly Flemish) were perversely proud of how well their little country was doing without national leadership, citing a growing economy now that those hairy politicians were out of the way!
posted by whatzit at 3:34 AM on December 1, 2011
I am a huge fan of Belgium, but I don't think they have it all worked out yet.
As a non-Belgium and non-European writing from a big country next-door to Belgium, I see:
- A large number of people who are not functionally bilingual, so they do not move easily between social circles or job opportunities (in my experience the monolinguals seem to be predominantly Francophone, perhaps because France is so close and so large?)
- Strong cultural differences between the French and Flemish speaking communities
- By extension, there is a lot of misunderstanding and dislike, or perhaps rivalry. These sentiments would be best clarified by a local...
I'm not sure the political resolution really says anything about where the linguistic divisions would head, but at least the country may have one national government again. Good thing or not, who am I to say? A lot of Belgians I know (mostly Flemish) were perversely proud of how well their little country was doing without national leadership, citing a growing economy now that those hairy politicians were out of the way!
posted by whatzit at 3:34 AM on December 1, 2011
As a Canadian I have always thought about Belgium as having problems similar to Canada and so this sorting out, kinda gives me hope.
Belgium is Europe in small scale. You've got actually three official languages: Flemish (Dutch), French, and German, (and of course anyone who is educated past kindergarten speaks English), but the divide in Belgium is much bigger than that. In a nutshell Belgium is the industrious, prosperous, business-minded, protestant North (Flanders) where people pay taxes, and the agricultural, poor, dole-minded catholic South (Wallonia) where the people live off the government and happen to speak French. Traditionally, the Dutch speakers were considered second-class citizens after the French, but since the Industrial revolution, the balance of political and economic power has shifted mightily to the North.
Anyway, the place is a mess.
The ridiculously long time it took to sort this out is more an indication that Belgium is not in need of its central government than any final sorting is an indication of hope that problems of a divided government can be solved - or need to be solved. Belgium has functioned more or less seamlessly without its central government and the fear amongst the political elite was that the population was beginning to take notice of this.
posted by three blind mice at 4:04 AM on December 1, 2011
Belgium is Europe in small scale. You've got actually three official languages: Flemish (Dutch), French, and German, (and of course anyone who is educated past kindergarten speaks English), but the divide in Belgium is much bigger than that. In a nutshell Belgium is the industrious, prosperous, business-minded, protestant North (Flanders) where people pay taxes, and the agricultural, poor, dole-minded catholic South (Wallonia) where the people live off the government and happen to speak French. Traditionally, the Dutch speakers were considered second-class citizens after the French, but since the Industrial revolution, the balance of political and economic power has shifted mightily to the North.
Anyway, the place is a mess.
The ridiculously long time it took to sort this out is more an indication that Belgium is not in need of its central government than any final sorting is an indication of hope that problems of a divided government can be solved - or need to be solved. Belgium has functioned more or less seamlessly without its central government and the fear amongst the political elite was that the population was beginning to take notice of this.
posted by three blind mice at 4:04 AM on December 1, 2011
@three blinded mice: the North is predominantly Catholic, the South is predominantly socialist (atheist)
posted by NekulturnY at 4:10 AM on December 1, 2011
posted by NekulturnY at 4:10 AM on December 1, 2011
The Flemish are mostly Catholic though. (Hence the mussels, chips, beer - a cultural marker of difference from the Puritanical, protestant Dutch to the North.) Also the Flemish dominance comes from long after the industrial revolution, which concentrated power among a French speaking elite. The collapse of heavy industry was when the Flemish got the upper hand.
posted by Mocata at 4:11 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Mocata at 4:11 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
From Wikipedia: "Religion was one of the differences between the almost solidly Roman Catholic south and the predominantly Protestant north of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands, formed in 1815. The union broke up in 1830 when the south seceded to form the Kingdom of Belgium. Roman Catholicism in Belgium's first century was socially such a binding factor that it prevailed over the important difference in languages (Dutch versus French). The loss in importance of religion as a social marker across late 20th century Western Europe, explains to a large extent the current centrifugal forces in Belgium, with language differences (increasingly reinforced by a positive feedback effect on the media) no longer being kept in check by a religious binding factor."
posted by iviken at 5:05 AM on December 1, 2011
posted by iviken at 5:05 AM on December 1, 2011
in my experience the monolinguals seem to be predominantly Francophone, perhaps because France is so close and so large?
It's rather because French was the language of the upper classes and the administration until the 1960s. As a result, older Flemings tend to be quite fluent in French. On the other hand, those Flemings born after 1970 often tend to struggle with French and be more fluent in English.
The French-speaking region of Wallonia was an industrial powerhouse until the 1960s. The general collapse of heavy industry in the Western world in the 1970s and 80s turned it into a rust belt. To further spoil things, without industry or work, the strong network of trade unions that had quite effectively defended the interests of industrial workers for almost two centuries turned into a clientelist system in which local Socialist barons favoured their supporters with often unnecessary public sector jobs, subsidised housing, rigged public contracts and suchlike. This also bred discontent in Flanders, which saw its tax money (and taxes are painfully high in Belgium) misspent to fuel corruption in the South of the country.
Coming back to di Rupo, his biggest achievement is probably that of tackling that clientelism head on, and giving the Parti Socialiste back some of its original purpose and idealism. I once personally met him in campaign over 20 years ago, when he still was an unknown, and was struck by his drive. He was NOT nice, and he has often demonstrated he has very sharp elbows. But he's decisive and determined, and Europe certainly needs more politicians like him.
(His biggest flaw, however, and quite an important one in Belgium, is that he's useless at languages. His Dutch sucks. So does his English. Even, reportedly, his Italian. And some wags like to add that his French ain't great either...On the other hand, the fact that, despite that huge handicap he's managed to reach the PM's seat shows the strength of his character, and his political guile.)
posted by Skeptic at 5:05 AM on December 1, 2011 [8 favorites]
It's rather because French was the language of the upper classes and the administration until the 1960s. As a result, older Flemings tend to be quite fluent in French. On the other hand, those Flemings born after 1970 often tend to struggle with French and be more fluent in English.
The French-speaking region of Wallonia was an industrial powerhouse until the 1960s. The general collapse of heavy industry in the Western world in the 1970s and 80s turned it into a rust belt. To further spoil things, without industry or work, the strong network of trade unions that had quite effectively defended the interests of industrial workers for almost two centuries turned into a clientelist system in which local Socialist barons favoured their supporters with often unnecessary public sector jobs, subsidised housing, rigged public contracts and suchlike. This also bred discontent in Flanders, which saw its tax money (and taxes are painfully high in Belgium) misspent to fuel corruption in the South of the country.
Coming back to di Rupo, his biggest achievement is probably that of tackling that clientelism head on, and giving the Parti Socialiste back some of its original purpose and idealism. I once personally met him in campaign over 20 years ago, when he still was an unknown, and was struck by his drive. He was NOT nice, and he has often demonstrated he has very sharp elbows. But he's decisive and determined, and Europe certainly needs more politicians like him.
(His biggest flaw, however, and quite an important one in Belgium, is that he's useless at languages. His Dutch sucks. So does his English. Even, reportedly, his Italian. And some wags like to add that his French ain't great either...On the other hand, the fact that, despite that huge handicap he's managed to reach the PM's seat shows the strength of his character, and his political guile.)
posted by Skeptic at 5:05 AM on December 1, 2011 [8 favorites]
I'm sorry but my Belgian heritage compels me to point this out. Belgians in the north don't speak dutch they speak flemish. I don't speak it but mother (who is a native speaker) assures me quite emphatically that dutch is almost completely incomprehensible to her.
Also, Belgians invented french fries, you shouldn't put maple syrup on waffles and they are not a breakfast food. For any Germans who might read this, Belgian beer is better and I can drink you all under the table.
Sorry, my ancestors made me do it.
posted by VTX at 6:01 AM on December 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
Also, Belgians invented french fries, you shouldn't put maple syrup on waffles and they are not a breakfast food. For any Germans who might read this, Belgian beer is better and I can drink you all under the table.
Sorry, my ancestors made me do it.
posted by VTX at 6:01 AM on December 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
Wait, I thought Phillipe Gilbert united Belgium this spring?
posted by entropone at 6:18 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by entropone at 6:18 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
He is widely known to always wear red bow ties.
Except, of course, for the main photo on the page...
But seriously, a six-party coalition? Does anyone really expect that to work? I'm not familiar with the players in this coalition, but I've watched a whole bunch of smaller coalitions disintegrate when one of the parties feels it's not being "treated fairly" (i.e., getting enough handouts) and decides to take their marbles back.
posted by Runes at 6:18 AM on December 1, 2011
Except, of course, for the main photo on the page...
But seriously, a six-party coalition? Does anyone really expect that to work? I'm not familiar with the players in this coalition, but I've watched a whole bunch of smaller coalitions disintegrate when one of the parties feels it's not being "treated fairly" (i.e., getting enough handouts) and decides to take their marbles back.
posted by Runes at 6:18 AM on December 1, 2011
Also while Flemish and Dutch are related, my Dutch-speaking friends say that Flemish is more or less incomprehensible to them.
posted by entropone at 6:19 AM on December 1, 2011
posted by entropone at 6:19 AM on December 1, 2011
VTX: "... dutch is almost completely incomprehensible to her"
Which "Dutch"? There are a number of different - and phonetically quite different - Dutch dialects, including Limburgs, Vlaams and Brabants. I could image that if you're from Westflandern you'd have a hard time understanding someone from Nijmegen - just as I have a hard time understanding people from Northern Jutland even though we nominally both speak Danish.
posted by brokkr at 6:24 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Which "Dutch"? There are a number of different - and phonetically quite different - Dutch dialects, including Limburgs, Vlaams and Brabants. I could image that if you're from Westflandern you'd have a hard time understanding someone from Nijmegen - just as I have a hard time understanding people from Northern Jutland even though we nominally both speak Danish.
posted by brokkr at 6:24 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't know but I would assume it would be either one of the southern dialects or, more likely, all of them.
Point is, there is no "dutch-speaking wing of the socialist party" as the BBC says. It is the Flemish-speaking socialist party. I can't speak for the whole country but all of the Belgians in my family get kind of prickly about it.
posted by VTX at 6:34 AM on December 1, 2011
Point is, there is no "dutch-speaking wing of the socialist party" as the BBC says. It is the Flemish-speaking socialist party. I can't speak for the whole country but all of the Belgians in my family get kind of prickly about it.
posted by VTX at 6:34 AM on December 1, 2011
The ridiculously long time it took to sort this out is more an indication that Belgium is not in need of its central government than any final sorting is an indication of hope that problems of a divided government can be solved - or need to be solved. Belgium has functioned more or less seamlessly without its central government and the fear amongst the political elite was that the population was beginning to take notice of this.
Either that or Belgian bond yields soaring made them do it. The bbc six-party link mentions it.
posted by ersatz at 6:36 AM on December 1, 2011
Either that or Belgian bond yields soaring made them do it. The bbc six-party link mentions it.
posted by ersatz at 6:36 AM on December 1, 2011
Francophone but not Francophile.
posted by blue_beetle at 6:36 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by blue_beetle at 6:36 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
But seriously, a six-party coalition? Does anyone really expect that to work?
Since the parties split along linguistic lines, Belgium has become quite used to such large coalitions. The record stands at eight parties. This one could turn out to be quite solid, for two reasons:
a) the two Green parties, while not directly part of the coalition, are supportive, and could jump in to replace any defectors; and
b) if, after the painful birth of the coalition, any single party was to take its chips home, it would almost certainly be savaged in the next election.
posted by Skeptic at 6:37 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Since the parties split along linguistic lines, Belgium has become quite used to such large coalitions. The record stands at eight parties. This one could turn out to be quite solid, for two reasons:
a) the two Green parties, while not directly part of the coalition, are supportive, and could jump in to replace any defectors; and
b) if, after the painful birth of the coalition, any single party was to take its chips home, it would almost certainly be savaged in the next election.
posted by Skeptic at 6:37 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
threeblindmice: and the agricultural, poor, dole-minded catholic South (Wallonia) where the people live off the government and happen to speak French
Wow, what? That's some bullshit right there.
posted by marginaliana at 6:45 AM on December 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Wow, what? That's some bullshit right there.
posted by marginaliana at 6:45 AM on December 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm really loving this thread. I'm hoping to move to Leuven and Belgian politics has thus far confused the fuck out of me. As a visitor to Belgium, their politics were profoundly weird for me as an American, they seem to all love each other so much in a way we could seriously learn from, but they clearly also resent each other so much for it.
posted by Blasdelb at 6:45 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Blasdelb at 6:45 AM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Re: Dutch/Flemish
Since 1973, the official legal term for what is used in Flanders is Nederlands (Dutch), exactly the same as what is used in the country to the north: indeed, since 1864 (!) government policy has been to use the same spelling as in the Netherlands for the (rare at the time) official documents in "Flemish." It's true that there are many dialects, and indeed before World War II, the use of standard Dutch was not very strong among Flemings. This was often used as an argument for the continued predominance of the French in Flanders ("We should learn Flemish? Which Flemish!?"). Nowadays, when I speak standard Dutch (a second language for me) to people in Flanders, they respond in kind. However, when some of my Flemish friends would get together with people from their own region, they would typically speak in dialect which was more or less incomprehensible to me.
Re:Three Blind Mice's comment
It's a mix of old clichés (Flemish are hard-working, Walloons are lazy) with some wildly inaccurate statements: Flanders is traditionally Catholic, not Protestant; Wallonia is stereotypically "freethinking," not Catholic (though most Walloons were and still are nominally Catholic in that they were baptized). Flanders seen was long agricultural and "poor" until the 1960s, and Wallonia has never been stereotyped as agricultural; indeed it was the first area on the continent to industrialize in the early 1800s -- thereby suffering the problems of early adopters as much of its physical plant became obsolete earlier than others'.
posted by dhens at 7:09 AM on December 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
Since 1973, the official legal term for what is used in Flanders is Nederlands (Dutch), exactly the same as what is used in the country to the north: indeed, since 1864 (!) government policy has been to use the same spelling as in the Netherlands for the (rare at the time) official documents in "Flemish." It's true that there are many dialects, and indeed before World War II, the use of standard Dutch was not very strong among Flemings. This was often used as an argument for the continued predominance of the French in Flanders ("We should learn Flemish? Which Flemish!?"). Nowadays, when I speak standard Dutch (a second language for me) to people in Flanders, they respond in kind. However, when some of my Flemish friends would get together with people from their own region, they would typically speak in dialect which was more or less incomprehensible to me.
Re:Three Blind Mice's comment
It's a mix of old clichés (Flemish are hard-working, Walloons are lazy) with some wildly inaccurate statements: Flanders is traditionally Catholic, not Protestant; Wallonia is stereotypically "freethinking," not Catholic (though most Walloons were and still are nominally Catholic in that they were baptized). Flanders seen was long agricultural and "poor" until the 1960s, and Wallonia has never been stereotyped as agricultural; indeed it was the first area on the continent to industrialize in the early 1800s -- thereby suffering the problems of early adopters as much of its physical plant became obsolete earlier than others'.
posted by dhens at 7:09 AM on December 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
It's a mix of old clichés (Flemish are hard-working, Walloons are lazy) with some wildly inaccurate statements
Indeed. A more appropriate analogy would be England, with the North-South relation inversed: both the rise and fall of Wallonia paralleled those of the North of England (Charleroi and Liège being almost sister cities to the likes of Newcastle and Sheffield), whereas Flanders has based its rise on pretty much the same sectors as the Southeast England (logistics, pharma, high tech and finance).
posted by Skeptic at 7:37 AM on December 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Indeed. A more appropriate analogy would be England, with the North-South relation inversed: both the rise and fall of Wallonia paralleled those of the North of England (Charleroi and Liège being almost sister cities to the likes of Newcastle and Sheffield), whereas Flanders has based its rise on pretty much the same sectors as the Southeast England (logistics, pharma, high tech and finance).
posted by Skeptic at 7:37 AM on December 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Flemish guy here. Trust me, the Dutch and the Flemish all speak standard Dutch. We also both have regional dialects that can make the local variant incomprehensible to someone living in the next town over, let alone in the next country, but we speak and write the same language. Flemish is just Dutch with a slightly different pronunciation and certain words and expressions used more or less often than the Dutch in the Netherlands. Anything else is a regional dialect - and the variety of those is quite amazing.
posted by LucVdB at 9:53 AM on December 1, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by LucVdB at 9:53 AM on December 1, 2011 [9 favorites]
Hmmm, LucVdB, I can favorite your post, but I can't "idd" it. What's up with that?
posted by entropone at 2:13 PM on December 1, 2011
posted by entropone at 2:13 PM on December 1, 2011
What? Bowties are cool.
posted by jaduncan at 2:59 PM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by jaduncan at 2:59 PM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Di Rupo posed for a publicity campaign for Oxfam Fair Trade stores a few years, featuring him in a bathtub wearing his trademark bow tie. The French version (which I have not been able to find in a large version online) has him saying "Je crois à l'effet papillon" ("I believe in the butterfly effect"), a play on words with "nœud papillon" ("butterfly knot," the French term for a bow tie).
Di Rupo, like many Belgian politicians, holds several political offices simultaneously. He is not only a member of the lower chamber of the Belgian parliament but also the bourgmestre (essentially mayor) of the city of Mons. When they opened a new pool in town earlier this year, he was there to inaugurate it, raising a few eyebrows.
posted by dhens at 3:37 PM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Di Rupo, like many Belgian politicians, holds several political offices simultaneously. He is not only a member of the lower chamber of the Belgian parliament but also the bourgmestre (essentially mayor) of the city of Mons. When they opened a new pool in town earlier this year, he was there to inaugurate it, raising a few eyebrows.
posted by dhens at 3:37 PM on December 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I would like to point out, in Walloonia, it is illegal to wear loose trunks in a swimming pool. Speedos are required, by law. Honest! It blew my mind. I had to buy a speedo to go to the water park (Aqualibi, by Brussels). I thought it was because some perv ran the park, and then learned it was law. The claim is that people would wear loose "trunks" around the house and doing gardening, then bring contamination into the pool. Speedos wouldn't be abused that way.
There is a custom in the Belgian military that when 2 officers talk with each other, they use the language of the lower-ranking officer. This works out well enough until the general is French-speaking, then it often breaks down.
Dutch is a difficult language, of limited use (ask any Dutch-speaking professor that wants to publish). French not so much, and is far more useful. But what winds my partner up (and he not being a Flemish nationalist) is going to Brussels, and everyone always using French. Brussels is a Flemish city. It's simple as that.
posted by Goofyy at 11:47 PM on December 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
There is a custom in the Belgian military that when 2 officers talk with each other, they use the language of the lower-ranking officer. This works out well enough until the general is French-speaking, then it often breaks down.
Dutch is a difficult language, of limited use (ask any Dutch-speaking professor that wants to publish). French not so much, and is far more useful. But what winds my partner up (and he not being a Flemish nationalist) is going to Brussels, and everyone always using French. Brussels is a Flemish city. It's simple as that.
posted by Goofyy at 11:47 PM on December 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Heh, I lived in Wallonia for a year but never went swimming, so I never came across that limitation.
I actually find Dutch to be rather easy, certainly much easier than German. Nevertheless, that's not the point: if you move to/live in Flanders you should learn the language.
Regarding Brussels (where I also lived for a year), I agree that Flemings should have the right to Dutch services in Brussels. The sandwhich shop ran by Armenian immigrants next door to my office was very good about serving customers in Dutch and French. But, calling Brussels, where well over half the population speaks French at home (and many of the immigrants, for better or worse, use French in public) (PDF, link is from a professor at the Dutch-speaking Vrije Universiteit in Brussels) is a bit too nostalgic-minded for my taste. The joke about Brussels is that it's Flemish during the day (with all of the commuters) and Francophone at night.
posted by dhens at 4:04 PM on December 3, 2011
I actually find Dutch to be rather easy, certainly much easier than German. Nevertheless, that's not the point: if you move to/live in Flanders you should learn the language.
Regarding Brussels (where I also lived for a year), I agree that Flemings should have the right to Dutch services in Brussels. The sandwhich shop ran by Armenian immigrants next door to my office was very good about serving customers in Dutch and French. But, calling Brussels, where well over half the population speaks French at home (and many of the immigrants, for better or worse, use French in public) (PDF, link is from a professor at the Dutch-speaking Vrije Universiteit in Brussels) is a bit too nostalgic-minded for my taste. The joke about Brussels is that it's Flemish during the day (with all of the commuters) and Francophone at night.
posted by dhens at 4:04 PM on December 3, 2011
^^^ calling Brussels a "Flemish city"... is a bit too nostalgic for my taste. [I forgot some words in the previous post.]
posted by dhens at 5:50 PM on December 3, 2011
posted by dhens at 5:50 PM on December 3, 2011
Flemish paid for it. Flemish built it. It's Flemish. The convention that makes it the capital of Belgium is a convention. The historical fact remains the fact. It's like who built Montezuma's Castle? The French tour guide said Montezuma, but that didn't make it fact.
posted by Goofyy at 3:44 AM on December 4, 2011
posted by Goofyy at 3:44 AM on December 4, 2011
Goofyy, I think that, unless there is a breakup of the Belgian state, the question of whether or not Brussels is a "Flemish" city is more or less academic, so long as the right of Flemings to service in Dutch in Brussels (which, it is true, could use some improvement) is guaranteed.
posted by dhens at 9:42 AM on December 4, 2011
posted by dhens at 9:42 AM on December 4, 2011
Goofyy: "Flemish paid for it. Flemish built it. It's Flemish."
"We bought it, we paid for it, it's ours, and we're going to keep it."
posted by Chrysostom at 11:23 AM on December 29, 2011
"We bought it, we paid for it, it's ours, and we're going to keep it."
posted by Chrysostom at 11:23 AM on December 29, 2011
"Flemish paid for it. Flemish built it. It's Flemish. The convention that makes it the capital of Belgium is a convention. The historical fact remains the fact. It's like who built Montezuma's Castle? The French tour guide said Montezuma, but that didn't make it fact."
This is nonsense, the Flemish didn't build Brussels and Walloons didn't either, the Congolese did.
I'm moving to Leuven this summer so this has been a very educational thread for me to read, thank you all!
posted by Blasdelb at 1:56 PM on December 29, 2011
This is nonsense, the Flemish didn't build Brussels and Walloons didn't either, the Congolese did.
I'm moving to Leuven this summer so this has been a very educational thread for me to read, thank you all!
posted by Blasdelb at 1:56 PM on December 29, 2011
Sorry, Blasdelb, you're mistaken. Brussels is far older than 19th century imperialism. And the royal house of Belgium is neither Walloon nor Flemish, but Hapsburg. They just grabbed a spare noble and created Belgium as a new kingdom, in the aftermath of war.
posted by Goofyy at 2:59 AM on December 30, 2011
posted by Goofyy at 2:59 AM on December 30, 2011
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