On John Lennon and Yoko Ono
December 6, 2011 6:06 AM Subscribe
Yeah, this was interesting, but the idea idyll of John and May was kind of undone by the descriptions of John's failed time in LA with May.
posted by OmieWise at 6:20 AM on December 6, 2011
posted by OmieWise at 6:20 AM on December 6, 2011
Yoko's solo work in the 70s and 80s as a musician was much more difficult, ambitious, and interesting than the adolescent play acting that John was doing--and John's most interesting work (Cold Turkey, Mother) seems to pretty inspired by Yoko.
posted by PinkMoose at 6:22 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by PinkMoose at 6:22 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Doesn't seem like a whole lot of new information, much of it (all?) covered in May's Wikipedia page
posted by victors at 6:22 AM on December 6, 2011
posted by victors at 6:22 AM on December 6, 2011
What's the deal with those mp3s at the end of the article?
posted by orme at 6:47 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by orme at 6:47 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Left by his mother at a young age and raised by his domineering Aunt Mimi, young John was constantly torn between longing for a hippie and a tyrant.
This is technically true but not really the whole story. John's dad wasn't around much when he was growing up (he was in the navy) and at one point when John was five years old his father tried to kidnap him and move to New Zealand with him, and John's mom caught wind and confronted him and John's dad made five-year-old John choose which parent he wanted to live with. John picked his dad, and his mom started to leave, but then John burst into tears and ran and grabbed his mother's leg and didn't want her to leave so then he didn't see his dad again for another twenty years (at which point he was a Beatle, and his dad wanted some money).
But John's mom was pissed that he'd initially chosen his dad, so she had him live with her sister Mimi. His mom lived a couple blocks away and visited a lot and Mimi decided she was spoiling John so she would sometimes lock the door and not let Julia in the house. Julia said that she was unfit to raise John, and then at some point started living with another man and had two kids with him. Meanwhile John lived with Mimi. One day Julia came over to visit John but he wasn't there, so she chatted briefly with Mimi and then walked to the bus stop and crossed the street and was hit by a police car and died.
Then John had difficulty with women.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:00 AM on December 6, 2011 [32 favorites]
This is technically true but not really the whole story. John's dad wasn't around much when he was growing up (he was in the navy) and at one point when John was five years old his father tried to kidnap him and move to New Zealand with him, and John's mom caught wind and confronted him and John's dad made five-year-old John choose which parent he wanted to live with. John picked his dad, and his mom started to leave, but then John burst into tears and ran and grabbed his mother's leg and didn't want her to leave so then he didn't see his dad again for another twenty years (at which point he was a Beatle, and his dad wanted some money).
But John's mom was pissed that he'd initially chosen his dad, so she had him live with her sister Mimi. His mom lived a couple blocks away and visited a lot and Mimi decided she was spoiling John so she would sometimes lock the door and not let Julia in the house. Julia said that she was unfit to raise John, and then at some point started living with another man and had two kids with him. Meanwhile John lived with Mimi. One day Julia came over to visit John but he wasn't there, so she chatted briefly with Mimi and then walked to the bus stop and crossed the street and was hit by a police car and died.
Then John had difficulty with women.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:00 AM on December 6, 2011 [32 favorites]
Yoko's solo work in the 70s and 80s as a musician was much more difficult, ambitious, and interesting
Perhaps, but it also sounded like total ass. Yoko made academic/art music, where the form, intent of the work, and post-structural subtexts were as important—perhaps more important—than the actual content of the piece. John made music that makes you want to sing.
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:09 AM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
Perhaps, but it also sounded like total ass. Yoko made academic/art music, where the form, intent of the work, and post-structural subtexts were as important—perhaps more important—than the actual content of the piece. John made music that makes you want to sing.
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:09 AM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
Wow, I feel like I've fallen into a Murakami-style parallel universe, with a different fundamental parameter (e.g. the number of moons) and you can't really even ask anybody about it without looking like a lunatic. I mean, I'm the right age, I grew up with Beatles music, and I like to think I pay attention, but I hadn't heard any of this about John & Yoko.
If this isn't just experimental / speculative historical fiction, I've got some readin' to do...
posted by spacewrench at 7:22 AM on December 6, 2011
If this isn't just experimental / speculative historical fiction, I've got some readin' to do...
posted by spacewrench at 7:22 AM on December 6, 2011
Poignantly well said, shakespeherian.
Seconding that it felt invasive reading this article. It is sloppy writing and lowbrow analysis but I was still curious, debasing myself by soaking up the gory and, most likely, incorrect details.
Lennon talking on Dick Cavett re Woman is the Nigger of the World, then singing it with Yoko.
His song, Mother | Julia.
Jealous Guy | Instant Karma | Beautiful Boy |
I'm grateful for his Imagine.
Sad to think it is the 31st anniversary of his murder the day after tomorrow, though he does live on in his wonderful, emotionally brave songs.
posted by nickyskye at 7:31 AM on December 6, 2011 [6 favorites]
Seconding that it felt invasive reading this article. It is sloppy writing and lowbrow analysis but I was still curious, debasing myself by soaking up the gory and, most likely, incorrect details.
Lennon talking on Dick Cavett re Woman is the Nigger of the World, then singing it with Yoko.
His song, Mother | Julia.
Jealous Guy | Instant Karma | Beautiful Boy |
I'm grateful for his Imagine.
Sad to think it is the 31st anniversary of his murder the day after tomorrow, though he does live on in his wonderful, emotionally brave songs.
posted by nickyskye at 7:31 AM on December 6, 2011 [6 favorites]
Yeah, this period has always been an odd one for me, along with his weird brief flirtation with Scientology (I think?) and the other stuff that happened to him, particularly later on.
Suffice it to say: the Beatles turned out to be severely messed up people. In many ways it's miraculous that they made music that was as good as all that. It is not lying, however, to say that fame harmed them deeply and irreparably; and as shakespeherian points out, it's not like they weren't in need of healing even before they got famous. It's really not hard to see why, after all this, John loathed "the Beatles" and everything that name stood for.
posted by koeselitz at 7:34 AM on December 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Suffice it to say: the Beatles turned out to be severely messed up people. In many ways it's miraculous that they made music that was as good as all that. It is not lying, however, to say that fame harmed them deeply and irreparably; and as shakespeherian points out, it's not like they weren't in need of healing even before they got famous. It's really not hard to see why, after all this, John loathed "the Beatles" and everything that name stood for.
posted by koeselitz at 7:34 AM on December 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
I still listen to more Yoko than John, and Walking on Thin Ice is completely singable.
posted by PinkMoose at 7:35 AM on December 6, 2011
posted by PinkMoose at 7:35 AM on December 6, 2011
PS May Pang seems like a marvelous name for a mistress.
posted by nickyskye at 7:37 AM on December 6, 2011
posted by nickyskye at 7:37 AM on December 6, 2011
It is not lying, however, to say that fame harmed them deeply and irreparably; and as shakespeherian points out, it's not like they weren't in need of healing even before they got famous.
Hmm, you know what would help? Let's try heroin, how 'bout!
posted by shakespeherian at 7:43 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hmm, you know what would help? Let's try heroin, how 'bout!
posted by shakespeherian at 7:43 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
It is not lying, however, to say that fame harmed them deeply and irreparably; and as shakespeherian points out, it's not like they weren't in need of healing even before they got famous.
That level of fame harms most people who experience it deeply and irreparably, I would imagine. Or if harm is too strong a word, it certainly doesn't leave them unscathed. Listening to "Fame" (which Bowie supposedly wrote based on a conversation he had with Lennon about the subject) -- or pretending to listen to it as though you were hearing it for the first time instead of the millionth -- you can hear the anger and pain beneath the icy sarcasm, and it's not buried or submerged.
posted by blucevalo at 7:56 AM on December 6, 2011
That level of fame harms most people who experience it deeply and irreparably, I would imagine. Or if harm is too strong a word, it certainly doesn't leave them unscathed. Listening to "Fame" (which Bowie supposedly wrote based on a conversation he had with Lennon about the subject) -- or pretending to listen to it as though you were hearing it for the first time instead of the millionth -- you can hear the anger and pain beneath the icy sarcasm, and it's not buried or submerged.
posted by blucevalo at 7:56 AM on December 6, 2011
Yeah, this was interesting, but the idea idyll of John and May was kind of undone by the descriptions of John's failed time in LA with May.
Right. Including the time he drunkenly strangled her.
I love John Lennon as an artist, but pretending any of his relationships had even the potential to be some sort of romantic ideal is . . . well, creepy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:00 AM on December 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
Right. Including the time he drunkenly strangled her.
I love John Lennon as an artist, but pretending any of his relationships had even the potential to be some sort of romantic ideal is . . . well, creepy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:00 AM on December 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
John Lennon, sent away by Yoko Ono, starts his "lost weekend" [18 months] of drinking and drugging in Los Angeles, carousing and getting into trouble with Harry Nilsson. In one famous scene, a drunken Lennon--who is wearing a tampon taped to his head--asks a waitress who he's been harassing at a bar, "Don't you know how I am?" "You're an asshole with a tampon on his head," she replies.posted by kirkaracha at 8:30 AM on December 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think "fame --> damage" is not a simple cause-effect relationship, either. In some people, life experiences (traumatic or otherwise) uniquely equip people to want to pursue such activities as undertaking continuous creative work, performing in public, sacrificing privacy and some of the more conventional comforts and routines of life, and portraying a persona. Fame, or the pursuit of it through public performance anyway, can be an attempt at fulfilling unmet needs as well as simply a result of talent naturally being rewarded with attention.
That life is not for everyone - I've known so very many incredibly talented musicians and artists in my time, and not all of them were willing to do the things it would take to get more famous, because they didn't have the required drive. Sometimes that drive is caused by pure ambition or love of the art form, but sometimes the drive might also be cause by internal pressures with their roots in early experience.
posted by Miko at 8:43 AM on December 6, 2011
That life is not for everyone - I've known so very many incredibly talented musicians and artists in my time, and not all of them were willing to do the things it would take to get more famous, because they didn't have the required drive. Sometimes that drive is caused by pure ambition or love of the art form, but sometimes the drive might also be cause by internal pressures with their roots in early experience.
posted by Miko at 8:43 AM on December 6, 2011
Up to about age 18 I idolized John Lennon. Then as I learned more about his personal relationship with women and Julian...and I as I began to have deeper relationships myself...I had to say, well..."I don't believe in Lennon." This is particularly true now that I have two sons. His song "Beautiful Boy" has a particular duality about it to me.
Here endeth the lesson.
posted by punkfloyd at 8:50 AM on December 6, 2011
Here endeth the lesson.
posted by punkfloyd at 8:50 AM on December 6, 2011
Up to about age 18 I idolized John Lennon. Then as I learned more about his personal relationship with women and Julian...and I as I began to have deeper relationships myself...I had to say, well..."I don't believe in Lennon." This is particularly true now that I have two sons. His song "Beautiful Boy" has a particular duality about it to me.
I think it's pretty common. I really do admire him, think he was a brilliant, but troubled person . . . but I get tired of the romanticism. The girls who say they wish they were Cynthia Lennon and who wear "Working Class Hero" shirts, that kind of thing. It was understandable in people my mother's age, back in the 60s, though still a little weird when even then he was singing stuff like "run for your life." But now, I don't know.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:54 AM on December 6, 2011
I think it's pretty common. I really do admire him, think he was a brilliant, but troubled person . . . but I get tired of the romanticism. The girls who say they wish they were Cynthia Lennon and who wear "Working Class Hero" shirts, that kind of thing. It was understandable in people my mother's age, back in the 60s, though still a little weird when even then he was singing stuff like "run for your life." But now, I don't know.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:54 AM on December 6, 2011
My read on this piece isn't that Lennon's time with May Pang was necessarily idyllic or blissful, but that his relationship with May allowed him to be John Lennon, with the monumental creativity and monumental douchiness that came with being John Lennon. Choosing Yoko meant sacrificing some of that fire in exchange for the pleasures of domesticity and escape from being "John Lennon." It might be a simplistic take, but then again, there's so much we can't know about him and the people closest to him, so maybe the broadest strokes are the most accurate. Who knows.
The author seems to lament the choice Lennon made. Then again, she wasn't one of his friends or family. Perhaps John Lennon the artist was a great thing for human culture in general, but John Lennon the husband and father was a better thing for the actual humans in his life.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 8:59 AM on December 6, 2011
The author seems to lament the choice Lennon made. Then again, she wasn't one of his friends or family. Perhaps John Lennon the artist was a great thing for human culture in general, but John Lennon the husband and father was a better thing for the actual humans in his life.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 8:59 AM on December 6, 2011
still a little weird when even then he was singing stuff like "run for your life."
Yeah. I love the Beatles, but that song has always creeped me out - it's just a murder threat.
Perhaps John Lennon the artist was a great thing for human culture in general, but John Lennon the husband and father was a better thing for the actual humans in his life.
I honestly don't find the work of his solo career, beyond a couple songs, to be any great shakes. I think the best thing he worked on post-Beatles was Double Fantasy, which was not only meaningfully collaborative but also pretty much about that reunion with Yoko and reconciling himself with family commitment (however illusory and sadly short-term). To me, it's the only album he made which doesn't sound dated today and can still offer satisfaction to a mature listener, not just a youthful idealistic fan.
posted by Miko at 9:03 AM on December 6, 2011
Yeah. I love the Beatles, but that song has always creeped me out - it's just a murder threat.
Perhaps John Lennon the artist was a great thing for human culture in general, but John Lennon the husband and father was a better thing for the actual humans in his life.
I honestly don't find the work of his solo career, beyond a couple songs, to be any great shakes. I think the best thing he worked on post-Beatles was Double Fantasy, which was not only meaningfully collaborative but also pretty much about that reunion with Yoko and reconciling himself with family commitment (however illusory and sadly short-term). To me, it's the only album he made which doesn't sound dated today and can still offer satisfaction to a mature listener, not just a youthful idealistic fan.
posted by Miko at 9:03 AM on December 6, 2011
I think one needs to make a pretty clear distinction between "the work" and "the man/woman" when it comes to most artists. John Lennon wrote a lot of great songs and was obviously a remarkably intelligent guy. He was obviously also a deeply troubled guy who went through periods of taking his troubles out on those around him.
You can substitute the names of an awful lot of great writers, composers, artists etc into the above paragraph. Mostly we either don't know or don't care. Every so often the personality of the artist seems somehow inextricably entwined with the nature of the work. But in the end I think we should always be able to recognize that that is more or less part of the artistic process too. That is, there's no reason why one should not remain enamored of the "John Lennon" that John Lennon was able to create in his music while remaining reasonably clear-eyed about the shortcomings of the real John Lennon. As, of course, the real John Lennon himself was.
posted by yoink at 9:05 AM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
You can substitute the names of an awful lot of great writers, composers, artists etc into the above paragraph. Mostly we either don't know or don't care. Every so often the personality of the artist seems somehow inextricably entwined with the nature of the work. But in the end I think we should always be able to recognize that that is more or less part of the artistic process too. That is, there's no reason why one should not remain enamored of the "John Lennon" that John Lennon was able to create in his music while remaining reasonably clear-eyed about the shortcomings of the real John Lennon. As, of course, the real John Lennon himself was.
posted by yoink at 9:05 AM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
Yeah. I love the Beatles, but that song has always creeped me out - it's just a murder threat.
It's not just that one. There's "Getting Better"--"I used to be cruel to my woman. I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved"--and "Jealous Guy," too. He was surprisingly honest in his music about this stuff, even as he was crooning about how all we need is love.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:09 AM on December 6, 2011
It's not just that one. There's "Getting Better"--"I used to be cruel to my woman. I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved"--and "Jealous Guy," too. He was surprisingly honest in his music about this stuff, even as he was crooning about how all we need is love.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:09 AM on December 6, 2011
'Getting Better' is Paul's song, though.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:21 AM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 9:21 AM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
May Pang also wrote a tell-all book about her time with Lennon, Loving John.
posted by jonp72 at 9:24 AM on December 6, 2011
posted by jonp72 at 9:24 AM on December 6, 2011
As for "Run For Your Life"--John Lennon pretty much disowned the song in later years, calling it his "least favorite Beatles song" and saying that he'd "always hated" it. The line in the song "I'd rather see you dead, little girl, than to be with another man" is actually a direct quote from an Elvis Presley song, "Baby, Let's Play House."
I do find the assumption that we're to read every single Beatles song as a direct first-person confession a pretty odd one, though. There's nothing wrong with writing a song in the persona of a fucked-up person.
posted by yoink at 9:40 AM on December 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
I do find the assumption that we're to read every single Beatles song as a direct first-person confession a pretty odd one, though. There's nothing wrong with writing a song in the persona of a fucked-up person.
posted by yoink at 9:40 AM on December 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
I was kind of disappointed that this fell into the same-old Yoko Ono bashing (with a twist that it's looking at Lennon post-Beatles and blaming Ono for everything, vs. looking at Lennon during the Beatles breakup... and blaming Ono for everything). Ono was a human being just like the rest of us, and I don't expect articles to treat her like a golden angel or anything, but allegations like
TL;DR: Ono was a domineering wicked puppet master, but we should also blame Lennon for giving in to her domineering wicked puppet mastery. How is this a different narrative?
posted by muddgirl at 9:42 AM on December 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yoko wanted to stay in the Dakota. She developed a shopping habit, regularly spending thousands every time she went to Henri Bendel’s, taking limousines everywhere she went. She was recording and performing as a solo artist. She was Yoko Ono, and she no longer had much use for John Lennon.are a huge, jarring non-sequitor (and that's just the start. Ono brainwashes Lennon! Ono stifles his creativity!)
TL;DR: Ono was a domineering wicked puppet master, but we should also blame Lennon for giving in to her domineering wicked puppet mastery. How is this a different narrative?
posted by muddgirl at 9:42 AM on December 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
'Getting Better' is Paul's song, though.
Paul sings it, but the lyrics were a collaboration. The "Lennon-McCartney" thing wasn't actually a pure fiction as people often seem to like to think. Both Lennon and McCartney tended to stress the separateness of their compositions in the bitter wake of the Beatles break-up, but in fact they did actually collaborate quite significantly.
posted by yoink at 9:43 AM on December 6, 2011
Paul sings it, but the lyrics were a collaboration. The "Lennon-McCartney" thing wasn't actually a pure fiction as people often seem to like to think. Both Lennon and McCartney tended to stress the separateness of their compositions in the bitter wake of the Beatles break-up, but in fact they did actually collaborate quite significantly.
posted by yoink at 9:43 AM on December 6, 2011
Now I want to hear more about Joni and her trophies.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:47 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:47 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
The line about beating "his woman" in "Getting Better" was a John addition (and, like most John additions, was sung by him) (Source).
As for "Run for your Life," whether or not John later disavowed the song, the rest of it reiterates the themes already present in the Elvis Song (which was generally far milder), and these themes are later repeated in Lennon songs like "Jealous Guy":
Well you know that I'm a wicked guy
And I was born with a jealous mind
And I can't spend my whole life
Trying just to make you toe the line
You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl
Let this be a sermon
I mean everything I've said
Baby, I'm determined
And I'd rather see you dead
Not to mention the fact that people involved with John, and John himself, confirmed that he was, actually, a jealous, abusive guy. It doesn't make much sense to me to read these as fictions. Not to say that the Beatles didn't sometimes write fictional songs, but John often mined biographical experiences, such as in "In My Life." It seems weird to only embrace those biographical elements when they're positive, rather than cathartic.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:53 AM on December 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
As for "Run for your Life," whether or not John later disavowed the song, the rest of it reiterates the themes already present in the Elvis Song (which was generally far milder), and these themes are later repeated in Lennon songs like "Jealous Guy":
Well you know that I'm a wicked guy
And I was born with a jealous mind
And I can't spend my whole life
Trying just to make you toe the line
You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl
Let this be a sermon
I mean everything I've said
Baby, I'm determined
And I'd rather see you dead
Not to mention the fact that people involved with John, and John himself, confirmed that he was, actually, a jealous, abusive guy. It doesn't make much sense to me to read these as fictions. Not to say that the Beatles didn't sometimes write fictional songs, but John often mined biographical experiences, such as in "In My Life." It seems weird to only embrace those biographical elements when they're positive, rather than cathartic.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:53 AM on December 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
(Actually, in relistening, they both sing along. But Hard Day's Write does say that the verses, along with the line "it couldn't get much worse!" were John lines. And I believe it--they sure sound like it.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:56 AM on December 6, 2011
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:56 AM on December 6, 2011
To me, [Double Fantasy is] the only album he made which doesn't sound dated today and can still offer satisfaction to a mature listener, not just a youthful idealistic fan.
To me, Double Fantasy sounds dated, overproduced, and a little complacent, and Plastic Ono Band is the only (solo) album he made which doesn't sound dated today and can still offer satisfaction to a mature listener. That and "Instant Karma." It's all so raw, so personal--almost embarrassingly so at times. The guy's begging his mother not to leave him on an album, for chrissakes.
I've always felt like Plastic Ono Band was brilliant, and Klaus Voorman and Ringo made it perfect. That was just as much a "band" record as any Beatles record, the way the three of them fit together.
posted by epilnivek at 10:02 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
To me, Double Fantasy sounds dated, overproduced, and a little complacent, and Plastic Ono Band is the only (solo) album he made which doesn't sound dated today and can still offer satisfaction to a mature listener. That and "Instant Karma." It's all so raw, so personal--almost embarrassingly so at times. The guy's begging his mother not to leave him on an album, for chrissakes.
I've always felt like Plastic Ono Band was brilliant, and Klaus Voorman and Ringo made it perfect. That was just as much a "band" record as any Beatles record, the way the three of them fit together.
posted by epilnivek at 10:02 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think one needs to make a pretty clear distinction between "the work" and "the man/woman" when it comes to most artists
Agreed.
To me, Double Fantasy sounds dated, overproduced, and a little complacent, and Plastic Ono Band is the only (solo) album he made which doesn't sound dated today and can still offer satisfaction to a mature listener.
De gustibus...
posted by Miko at 10:16 AM on December 6, 2011
Agreed.
To me, Double Fantasy sounds dated, overproduced, and a little complacent, and Plastic Ono Band is the only (solo) album he made which doesn't sound dated today and can still offer satisfaction to a mature listener.
De gustibus...
posted by Miko at 10:16 AM on December 6, 2011
I've always felt like Plastic Ono Band was brilliant, and Klaus Voorman and Ringo made it perfect. That was just as much a "band" record as any Beatles record, the way the three of them fit together.
Yeah, POB is my pick for best solo Lennon album, too. But there's a lot of good and some great stuff on Imagine too. And both Mind Games and Walls and Bridges are worth the occasional re-listen. If that discography weren't by OMG ex-Beatle John Lennon we'd regard it as one of the great minor treasures of the 70s.
It seems weird to only embrace those biographical elements when they're positive, rather than cathartic.
Except that if you read what I'm saying you'll see that I'm arguing against "embracing...biographical elements" in any straightforwardly "window to the soul" way at all--positive or negative. I think it's a misunderstanding of the creative process to look at some song lyrics and say "yes, this is uncomplicatedly and straightforwardly a transcription of the mind of the writer." The fact that the darkest, most troubling part of "Run for your Life"--the part that has people in this thread going "OMG, he's threatening to KILL someone!!!"-- is a direct quotation from an Elvis song written by a guy noone here knows or cares a hoot about (Cy Coben, who doesn't seem to have been an angry wife-beater) shows how inadequate any such a reading is.
Now, of course we can engage (if we're interested) in a more nuanced discussion about whether the line interested Lennon because he wanted to think about his own violent tendencies and whether he wrote the song to parody/exorcise/exult or whatever in those tendencies. But in judging the song itself I don't see that we have to go through the process of either judging Lennon or excusing Lennon. The song works or doesn't work on its own terms. Just as Jealous Guy works or doesn't work on its own terms. Lots of people have sung the song and it's effective whether or not they happen to be jealous, angry men who have struggled to overcome their demons.
posted by yoink at 10:25 AM on December 6, 2011
Yeah, POB is my pick for best solo Lennon album, too. But there's a lot of good and some great stuff on Imagine too. And both Mind Games and Walls and Bridges are worth the occasional re-listen. If that discography weren't by OMG ex-Beatle John Lennon we'd regard it as one of the great minor treasures of the 70s.
It seems weird to only embrace those biographical elements when they're positive, rather than cathartic.
Except that if you read what I'm saying you'll see that I'm arguing against "embracing...biographical elements" in any straightforwardly "window to the soul" way at all--positive or negative. I think it's a misunderstanding of the creative process to look at some song lyrics and say "yes, this is uncomplicatedly and straightforwardly a transcription of the mind of the writer." The fact that the darkest, most troubling part of "Run for your Life"--the part that has people in this thread going "OMG, he's threatening to KILL someone!!!"-- is a direct quotation from an Elvis song written by a guy noone here knows or cares a hoot about (Cy Coben, who doesn't seem to have been an angry wife-beater) shows how inadequate any such a reading is.
Now, of course we can engage (if we're interested) in a more nuanced discussion about whether the line interested Lennon because he wanted to think about his own violent tendencies and whether he wrote the song to parody/exorcise/exult or whatever in those tendencies. But in judging the song itself I don't see that we have to go through the process of either judging Lennon or excusing Lennon. The song works or doesn't work on its own terms. Just as Jealous Guy works or doesn't work on its own terms. Lots of people have sung the song and it's effective whether or not they happen to be jealous, angry men who have struggled to overcome their demons.
posted by yoink at 10:25 AM on December 6, 2011
The line about beating "his woman" in "Getting Better" was a John addition (and, like most John additions, was sung by him)
Yeah, after the pushback I went and looked it up and was about to come in here and write a mea culpa. Twas John, indeed.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:26 AM on December 6, 2011
Yeah, after the pushback I went and looked it up and was about to come in here and write a mea culpa. Twas John, indeed.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:26 AM on December 6, 2011
John went to the dark side a lot in his lyrics; I admire his honesty. There's also this one: "It's the second time I caught you talking to him / Do I have to tell you one more time? / I think it's a sin... So please listen to me if you wanna stay mine / I can't help my feelings, I'll go out of my mind... I told you before: You can't do that."
posted by Zerowensboring at 10:32 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Zerowensboring at 10:32 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
But in judging the song itself I don't see that we have to go through the process of either judging Lennon or excusing Lennon
I wasn't judging the song itself. I was judging based on what I know about John Lennon from reading biographies and interviews by him and those he was close to. Of "Getting Better" specifically, John said:
PLAYBOY: "Getting Better."
LENNON: It is a diary form of writing. All that "I used to be cruel to my woman, I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved" was me. I used to be cruel to my woman, and physically -- any woman. I was a hitter. I couldn't express myself and I hit. I fought men and I hit women. That is why I am always on about peace, you see. It is the most violent people who go for love and peace. Everything's the opposite. But I sincerely believe in love and peace. I am not violent man who has learned not to be violent and regrets his violence. I will have to be a lot older before I can face in public how I treated women as a youngster.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:44 AM on December 6, 2011
I wasn't judging the song itself. I was judging based on what I know about John Lennon from reading biographies and interviews by him and those he was close to. Of "Getting Better" specifically, John said:
PLAYBOY: "Getting Better."
LENNON: It is a diary form of writing. All that "I used to be cruel to my woman, I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved" was me. I used to be cruel to my woman, and physically -- any woman. I was a hitter. I couldn't express myself and I hit. I fought men and I hit women. That is why I am always on about peace, you see. It is the most violent people who go for love and peace. Everything's the opposite. But I sincerely believe in love and peace. I am not violent man who has learned not to be violent and regrets his violence. I will have to be a lot older before I can face in public how I treated women as a youngster.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:44 AM on December 6, 2011
(As for whether I was "judging" him, I don't know. My father was abusive toward my mother for many years. I understand that interpersonal relationships are complex, that people are thorny and sometimes ugly even when they're also sometimes good. I would not, however, hold up their relationship as a romantic ideal, and that's why I find it disturbing when people do so with Lennon and the women he was involved with.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:47 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:47 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
PhoBWanKenobi--I don't seem to be expressing myself very clearly. I'm not, in any way, disagreeing that John Lennon used to be an abusive jerk. In my very first post in this thread I say "He was obviously also a deeply troubled guy who went through periods of taking his troubles out on those around him." O.K.?
But the song "Getting Better" works or fails to work on its own terms. It's an interesting fact about its composition and about John Lennon's biography that he used his own experience quite directly in writing one line of the song--but it would be a grossly inadequate reading of the song to say "this song is about John Lennon's past history of spousal abuse." For one thing, he is incorporating lines into a song that is mostly written by Paul McCartney--that, right there, tells us that we cannot read the song uncomplicatedly as the transcription of some real individual person's essence. The song is what it is an a coherent work of art--and it is that regardless of the underlying biographical facts that its authors happened to draw on it writing it.
We don't know if Shakespeare was a violent, jealous husband or not. It would not change the meaning of Othello if we happened to know that fact--one way or the other.
I would not, however, hold up their relationship as a romantic ideal, and that's why I find it disturbing when people do so with Lennon and the women he was involved with.
I can't argue with that, but on the other hand I've never known anyone who did hold his relationships with women up as a "romantic ideal." It's not as if he was reticent about what a shit he could be.
posted by yoink at 11:04 AM on December 6, 2011
But the song "Getting Better" works or fails to work on its own terms. It's an interesting fact about its composition and about John Lennon's biography that he used his own experience quite directly in writing one line of the song--but it would be a grossly inadequate reading of the song to say "this song is about John Lennon's past history of spousal abuse." For one thing, he is incorporating lines into a song that is mostly written by Paul McCartney--that, right there, tells us that we cannot read the song uncomplicatedly as the transcription of some real individual person's essence. The song is what it is an a coherent work of art--and it is that regardless of the underlying biographical facts that its authors happened to draw on it writing it.
We don't know if Shakespeare was a violent, jealous husband or not. It would not change the meaning of Othello if we happened to know that fact--one way or the other.
I would not, however, hold up their relationship as a romantic ideal, and that's why I find it disturbing when people do so with Lennon and the women he was involved with.
I can't argue with that, but on the other hand I've never known anyone who did hold his relationships with women up as a "romantic ideal." It's not as if he was reticent about what a shit he could be.
posted by yoink at 11:04 AM on December 6, 2011
"as a coherent work of art" not "an a coherent work of art."
posted by yoink at 11:05 AM on December 6, 2011
posted by yoink at 11:05 AM on December 6, 2011
I feel like you're having an argument different than the one I'm having, yoink. I'm not talking about a work of art's "failure" or "success." I'm merely commenting that strands about abuse are proliferate in Lennon's work, and that accounts by those who loved him, as well as his very own words, confirm that these strands had a biographical source. That has nothing to do with a work's value, and I'm not trying to derive "some real individual person's essence."
I do, however, find it hard to find someone who sang about beating chicks up sexycakes, in songs that were admittedly autobiographical, and it weirds me out when other people don't have those difficulties.
I can't argue with that, but on the other hand I've never known anyone who did hold his relationships with women up as a "romantic ideal."
You obviously haven't hung out on Beatles communities on livejournal.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:12 AM on December 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
I do, however, find it hard to find someone who sang about beating chicks up sexycakes, in songs that were admittedly autobiographical, and it weirds me out when other people don't have those difficulties.
I can't argue with that, but on the other hand I've never known anyone who did hold his relationships with women up as a "romantic ideal."
You obviously haven't hung out on Beatles communities on livejournal.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:12 AM on December 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
that these strands had a biographical source
Has anyone claimed otherwise?
posted by yoink at 12:24 PM on December 6, 2011
Has anyone claimed otherwise?
posted by yoink at 12:24 PM on December 6, 2011
I feel like you guys are arguing about whether you're fighting or not.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:27 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by shakespeherian at 12:27 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I have no idea. I'm not making any claims about your claims. I'm not making judgments about value of either John Lennon the man or John Lennon's work. I'm just saying he sang about hitting people, that's all.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:32 PM on December 6, 2011
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:32 PM on December 6, 2011
Some of John's best post-1971 or so solo work was the arrangement and guitar on Yoko's "Walking on Thin Ice," which sounds like he finally found a way forward. It's a shame they didn't work together (instead of recording for the same album but not actually collaborating because one or the other of them felt insecure) more often. But then I like a lot of Yoko's music: "Mind Train" and "Don't Worry Kyoko" (for Yoko's daughter, spirited off to a Christian cult by an ex after she hooked up with John) if you like the Can-like avant-garde stuff; real melodies in "Mrs. Lennon" (which Alex Chilton ripped off for "Holocaust"), "I Felt Like Smashing My Face Through a Clear Glass Window" (which is a pop song with horns), Revelations (with Cat Power); and the amazing and awkward and harrowing grief song "No No No" (warning: graphic album cover). I don't know how you can listen to that last one and talk about her like she was only after him for the money. I don't remember what you promised, but I know you didn't keep it.
It's true that she wanted to be famous too, and that she was at least as manipulative as John was (although he tended to be more passive-aggressive about it). But maybe something to be aware of, something that would have fit into an article like this if it had any room for sympathy for Yoko, is what John did to her that sort of broke their marriage: he had loud drunk sex with another woman in the next room while they were at a party. "Death of Samantha" is about this.
posted by Adventurer at 12:49 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's true that she wanted to be famous too, and that she was at least as manipulative as John was (although he tended to be more passive-aggressive about it). But maybe something to be aware of, something that would have fit into an article like this if it had any room for sympathy for Yoko, is what John did to her that sort of broke their marriage: he had loud drunk sex with another woman in the next room while they were at a party. "Death of Samantha" is about this.
posted by Adventurer at 12:49 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm not making any claims about your claims.
I'm puzzled that you seemed to need to keep quoting my posts in that case. Still, I guess we'll just have to agree to not differ.
posted by yoink at 12:52 PM on December 6, 2011
I'm puzzled that you seemed to need to keep quoting my posts in that case. Still, I guess we'll just have to agree to not differ.
posted by yoink at 12:52 PM on December 6, 2011
Sigh.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:54 PM on December 6, 2011
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:54 PM on December 6, 2011
I do wonder if this reworking of Pang as someone who let's Lennon be Lennon has a connection to a kind of fear of the avant garde/racism/misogyny that is centered around Yoko. I mean the most significant album out of the LA Years is Rock and Roll, a (pretty fantastic) album of rock covers done almost entirely by men.
posted by PinkMoose at 12:59 PM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 12:59 PM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
That's interesting, PinkMoose. I think generally there's a tendency to set up good/evil dichotomies around the women in John's life in biographies and biopics: Julia/Mimi, Cynthia/Yoko. It makes sense, in a perverse way, to shoehorn May Pang into that--and because she's, like Yoko, an Asian woman, it doesn't seem intrinsically as nasty on first glance.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:13 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:13 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
that's my instinct, but both Yoko and May were pretty skillful at working their public personaes for sympathy. May's friendship with Cynthia being part of that.
posted by PinkMoose at 1:19 PM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 1:19 PM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
Something else this article overlooks is John's desire, after spending most of his adult and part of his teenage life in a band with somebody who could both share the psychic load and give him somebody to compete against, for a strong collaborator. In LA he turned to Nilsson, who was more of a protege, and to Spector, who was a strong personality but was falling apart. May Pang, meanwhile, was 22, at which age John had not yet recorded "Please Please Me," and didn't make music. Didn't make art. In one way she wasn't the kind of partner he needed at all. Not a Paul McCartney, not a Stuart Sutcliffe.
Not that getting back together with Yoko saved him artistically. He already had a case of writer's block coming on by the time he got to LA, and didn't get out of it for years. But one thing this article does that seems to maybe misjudge who John had become is to posit an ideal relationship for him in which he would be the rock star and the other person would be his support system, and not a kind of a star herself.
posted by Adventurer at 1:49 PM on December 6, 2011
Not that getting back together with Yoko saved him artistically. He already had a case of writer's block coming on by the time he got to LA, and didn't get out of it for years. But one thing this article does that seems to maybe misjudge who John had become is to posit an ideal relationship for him in which he would be the rock star and the other person would be his support system, and not a kind of a star herself.
posted by Adventurer at 1:49 PM on December 6, 2011
...still a little weird when even then he was singing stuff like "run for your life."
It is my least favorite Beatle song as well.
By the way,, to be further nuanced, note that the Elvis song, was written and sung first by one Arthur Gunter. Elvis's rhythm'n blues songs on Sun were covers of recent hits by southern blues artists -- Junior Parker for Mystery Train, Arthur Crudup for That's Alright, Mama and Gunter for Baby, Let's Play House. Recent hits save for Kokomo Arnold's Milkcow Blues, which had a myriad of covers long before Elvis cut his version but that's a whole 'nother story.
posted by y2karl at 9:25 AM on December 8, 2011
It is my least favorite Beatle song as well.
By the way,, to be further nuanced, note that the Elvis song, was written and sung first by one Arthur Gunter. Elvis's rhythm'n blues songs on Sun were covers of recent hits by southern blues artists -- Junior Parker for Mystery Train, Arthur Crudup for That's Alright, Mama and Gunter for Baby, Let's Play House. Recent hits save for Kokomo Arnold's Milkcow Blues, which had a myriad of covers long before Elvis cut his version but that's a whole 'nother story.
posted by y2karl at 9:25 AM on December 8, 2011
Yoko using John's money and name to get a career of her own? Imagine that.
posted by stormpooper at 10:33 AM on December 8, 2011
posted by stormpooper at 10:33 AM on December 8, 2011
Yoko using John's money and name to get a career of her own? Imagine that.
Yoko was from a wealthy Japanese family who had her committed for essentially slumming it after she enrolled in Sarah Lawrence. By the time she met John, she was already a successful avant garde artist and had performed at Carnegie Hall. I really doubt she needed either John's name or money to "get" a career.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:44 PM on December 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yoko was from a wealthy Japanese family who had her committed for essentially slumming it after she enrolled in Sarah Lawrence. By the time she met John, she was already a successful avant garde artist and had performed at Carnegie Hall. I really doubt she needed either John's name or money to "get" a career.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:44 PM on December 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
« Older Depressives unite! | Ríu Ríu Chíu Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Interesting reading, anyway, though I felt a little invasive just reading it. There are facts here but also a lot of interpretation and I'm not sure the lay psychological analysis is any good.
posted by Miko at 6:18 AM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]