Talking VR with John Carmack
June 7, 2012 5:23 AM Subscribe
Talking VR with John Carmack. John Carmack (previously) talks about the state of head-mounted VR displays. Includes details about how he used software from his aerospace company to make current commercial products better and homebrew kits that outperform anything commercially released so far.
Eurogamer has a writeup of an appointment with Carmack as well.
Eurogamer has a writeup of an appointment with Carmack as well.
I could listen to John Carmack talk about latency all day, I only hope hardware engineers are listening too.
posted by helicomatic at 6:00 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by helicomatic at 6:00 AM on June 7, 2012
Some more interview footage from PC Gamer. I love the bemused looks of the journalists & Carmack's infectious enthusiasm.
posted by ianso at 6:05 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by ianso at 6:05 AM on June 7, 2012
High end audio systems would have sync problems too but I'm sure you can set a delay to sync it up.
The Guitar Hero games (and I assume Rock Band too) had a screen to configure display lag compensation, what with their reliance on tight synchronisation between audio, display, and input. Of course that's pretty easy to do when your game engine is essentially playing out a predetermined data stream.
Aside from that, with a laggy display you're out of luck - I think some of the tournament-level SF/VF/Tekken players stick to CRTs for this reason.
posted by phl at 6:16 AM on June 7, 2012
The Guitar Hero games (and I assume Rock Band too) had a screen to configure display lag compensation, what with their reliance on tight synchronisation between audio, display, and input. Of course that's pretty easy to do when your game engine is essentially playing out a predetermined data stream.
Aside from that, with a laggy display you're out of luck - I think some of the tournament-level SF/VF/Tekken players stick to CRTs for this reason.
posted by phl at 6:16 AM on June 7, 2012
Don't LED displays have low latency?
posted by LogicalDash at 6:22 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by LogicalDash at 6:22 AM on June 7, 2012
Don't LED displays have low latency?Yes, but while the display panels themselves have low latency, the pixel pipes (deblocking, scan conversion, etc) behind them, which are almost always daisy-chained, do not -- so you go from a panel which can swich a pixel in microseconds to a display which lags 60ms to actually display a frame. At 60Hz, it also takes 15ms to draw a whole frame.
posted by LogicalDash at 1:22 AM on June 8 [+] [!]
posted by nonspecialist at 6:26 AM on June 7, 2012
The panels may have low latency but all the stupid extra hardware between the signal and the screen does.
posted by TheJoven at 6:27 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by TheJoven at 6:27 AM on June 7, 2012
It revives my faith in the games business to see this interview after the horrible press conferences from the big manufacturers. Carmack's still geeking out, all's right with the world.
posted by demiurge at 7:02 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by demiurge at 7:02 AM on June 7, 2012
Er, why do you need to deblock or convert anything if you're using a digital interface? I mean I presume the sort of person who'd shell out for an LED monitor would prefer DVI.
posted by LogicalDash at 7:27 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by LogicalDash at 7:27 AM on June 7, 2012
Carmack and Sweeney are two of the smartest motherfuckers when it comes to game programming (and Sweeney does a lot of non-game programming geekery (I believe he posts at Lambda: The Ultimate quite a bit regarding programming languages - which made me respect him a hell of a lot)).
posted by symbioid at 7:30 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by symbioid at 7:30 AM on June 7, 2012
man, why are people like this working on heads up displays, and not clean energy, human rights, or ecological technologies that will allow humans to keep living on the planet?
posted by eustatic at 7:37 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by eustatic at 7:37 AM on June 7, 2012
man, why are people like this working on heads up displays, and not clean energy, human rights, or ecological technologies that will allow humans to keep living on the planet?
Because they use their intellectual gifts to pursue things that interest them, instead of what you want them to be interested in.
posted by kbanas at 7:41 AM on June 7, 2012 [8 favorites]
Because they use their intellectual gifts to pursue things that interest them, instead of what you want them to be interested in.
posted by kbanas at 7:41 AM on June 7, 2012 [8 favorites]
The panels may have low latency but all the stupid extra hardware between the signal and the screen does.
A lot of modern TVs postprocess the video streams to quote-improve-unquote them, sometimes adding as much as a full second of delay. It's almost totally irrelevant for straight consuming-video uses, and it can make almost all video games totally unplayable.
If you're a gamer on the market for a new screen, you'd do well to make sure that your next purchase has a "gaming mode", or something comparably named, that lets you turn all that shit off.
posted by mhoye at 7:58 AM on June 7, 2012
A lot of modern TVs postprocess the video streams to quote-improve-unquote them, sometimes adding as much as a full second of delay. It's almost totally irrelevant for straight consuming-video uses, and it can make almost all video games totally unplayable.
If you're a gamer on the market for a new screen, you'd do well to make sure that your next purchase has a "gaming mode", or something comparably named, that lets you turn all that shit off.
posted by mhoye at 7:58 AM on June 7, 2012
man, why are people like this working on heads up displays, and not clean energy, human rights, or ecological technologies
Because people aren't fungible. Why aren't you an astronaut, a PhD specializing central African botany and an NBA power forward?
I see this all the time, and it's a very weird outlook. Why does this person with a deep understanding of, and passion for, this societal niche work on some other societal niches I arbitrarily decided are more important? Well, because they don't have a deep understanding of them or passion for them. Maybe if you actually looked over there, though, you'd see a comparably dedicated and smart group of people that are working on that stuff. And curing cancer, and designing cheaper clean power supplies, and lots of other stuff.
Just not these specific people.
posted by mhoye at 8:09 AM on June 7, 2012 [7 favorites]
Because people aren't fungible. Why aren't you an astronaut, a PhD specializing central African botany and an NBA power forward?
I see this all the time, and it's a very weird outlook. Why does this person with a deep understanding of, and passion for, this societal niche work on some other societal niches I arbitrarily decided are more important? Well, because they don't have a deep understanding of them or passion for them. Maybe if you actually looked over there, though, you'd see a comparably dedicated and smart group of people that are working on that stuff. And curing cancer, and designing cheaper clean power supplies, and lots of other stuff.
Just not these specific people.
posted by mhoye at 8:09 AM on June 7, 2012 [7 favorites]
Yeah, it's the Jerry Pournelle "if only we'd spent all the money the US spends on lipstick on a moonbase instead" fallacy.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:41 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by MartinWisse at 8:41 AM on June 7, 2012
Besides, the evolution of technologies are so intertwined, you can't really tell what contributes to the other and not. And besides, Carmack already has his private space program.
posted by rowancluster at 8:57 AM on June 7, 2012
posted by rowancluster at 8:57 AM on June 7, 2012
Er, why do you need to deblock or convert anything if you're using a digital interface? I mean I presume the sort of person who'd shell out for an LED monitor would prefer DVI.You don't. That's the whole point! You don't have to do it but it happens anyway, and as a result, displays are lagy even thought they don't have to be.
Carmack actually measured it with a high speed camera and it turns out that it takes less time for a TCP packet to get to the other side of the world then it does for a pixel to change color on your screen!
Also, John Carmackis Ayn rand loving objectivist libertarian. So there's a good chance he's not working on clean energy or human rights because he doesn't give a shit. He also doesn't get very involved in politics, and given his ideological leanings I'd really prefer he not start.man, why are people like this working on heads up displays, and not clean energy, human rights, or ecological technologiesBecause people aren't fungible. Why aren't you an astronaut, a PhD specializing central African botany and an NBA power forward?
posted by delmoi at 9:07 AM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
The other irony with lag: Back in the CRT days you knew exactly where the beam was at any second, and early video game systems actually drew sprites by timing where the beam was in the scanline and generating the signal for the sprite as the bean was sweeping over where the sprite should be. If you changed something ahead of the beam, you wouldn't even have to wait for the next frame for it to render.
This was done in hardware, obviously, but in early video games the hardware was an integral part of the game anyway. And nowadays people do do that kind of thing is software, the only difference is those signals are probably being buffered somewhere and extra lag is being added since they are getting converted to digital and then sent to an LCD panel.
posted by delmoi at 9:13 AM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
This was done in hardware, obviously, but in early video games the hardware was an integral part of the game anyway. And nowadays people do do that kind of thing is software, the only difference is those signals are probably being buffered somewhere and extra lag is being added since they are getting converted to digital and then sent to an LCD panel.
posted by delmoi at 9:13 AM on June 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
One can mak the argument that satisfying people's acquisitive instincts with virtual rather than real goods does help the environment.
posted by empath at 10:12 AM on June 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by empath at 10:12 AM on June 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
He also doesn't get very involved in politics, and given his ideological leanings I'd really prefer he not start.
Yeah, no kidding. I wasn't aware of this until recently, when he mentioned on Twitter that he doesn't find John Derbyshire's recent antics that offensive, so I suppose you can safely add "pretty darn racist" to the list.
I still respect the hell out of the man as a technologist and an artist, and thinking about it a fair number of my personal heroes have been pretty far into the American right-libertarian scene, but it's still kind of jarring to go oh hey look, this guy really smart guy I've admired since I was a kid believes some really heinous bullshit.
posted by brennen at 4:57 PM on June 7, 2012
Yeah, no kidding. I wasn't aware of this until recently, when he mentioned on Twitter that he doesn't find John Derbyshire's recent antics that offensive, so I suppose you can safely add "pretty darn racist" to the list.
I still respect the hell out of the man as a technologist and an artist, and thinking about it a fair number of my personal heroes have been pretty far into the American right-libertarian scene, but it's still kind of jarring to go oh hey look, this guy really smart guy I've admired since I was a kid believes some really heinous bullshit.
posted by brennen at 4:57 PM on June 7, 2012
Ya, that was awesome. Meanwhile, I need a nice CRT for Quake playing..
posted by Chuckles at 6:51 PM on June 7, 2012
posted by Chuckles at 6:51 PM on June 7, 2012
man, why are people like this working on heads up displays, and not clean energy, human rights, or ecological technologies that will allow humans to keep living on the planet?
He also put a significant amount of money and effort into developing commercial space flight. Space based solar power and habitats are our most likely hope for avoiding a massive ecological catastrophe in the next couple centuries.
Also, go easy on Carmack. I don't know what it is about Dallas, but when I was growing up as a programmer out there it seemed that Randism pervaded everything.
posted by heathkit at 11:09 PM on June 7, 2012
He also put a significant amount of money and effort into developing commercial space flight. Space based solar power and habitats are our most likely hope for avoiding a massive ecological catastrophe in the next couple centuries.
Also, go easy on Carmack. I don't know what it is about Dallas, but when I was growing up as a programmer out there it seemed that Randism pervaded everything.
posted by heathkit at 11:09 PM on June 7, 2012
As regards Carmack's politics, I think that How to be a fan of problematic things extends to people as well as things. The other way madness lies - ask Solzhenitsyn or Shostakovich what it's like to live in a culture where your output is judged on your politics.
As regards VR as a technology and the political turn of this thread, it recalled to mind Wallace Shawn's 'Why I Call Myself a Socialist', in which he explains, to paraphrase poorly, that as an actor, whose profession is to 'be' different people all the time, he sees too much though different perspectives to regard his own POV as more than an accident of birth. Given that virtual reality is literally the experience of a perspective other than one's own, it's possible that the cultural impact of Carmack's innovations could be quite contrary to his politics :-)
posted by ianso at 1:28 AM on June 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
As regards VR as a technology and the political turn of this thread, it recalled to mind Wallace Shawn's 'Why I Call Myself a Socialist', in which he explains, to paraphrase poorly, that as an actor, whose profession is to 'be' different people all the time, he sees too much though different perspectives to regard his own POV as more than an accident of birth. Given that virtual reality is literally the experience of a perspective other than one's own, it's possible that the cultural impact of Carmack's innovations could be quite contrary to his politics :-)
posted by ianso at 1:28 AM on June 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
Here's a comparison of LCD input lag from TFT Central's review of the HP ZR2440w. (This kind of chart is not unique to this review, only a handy example.) These are mid-range 24" and 27" displays, and it's clear that latency is just not a priority.
posted by Rhomboid at 10:38 AM on June 8, 2012
posted by Rhomboid at 10:38 AM on June 8, 2012
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posted by TheJoven at 5:59 AM on June 7, 2012