"Prosecco's basically the same thing," he said dismissively.
September 23, 2012 3:26 PM Subscribe
Wait... you mean there's a part of this world that isn't dark?
posted by valkyryn at 3:56 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by valkyryn at 3:56 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
This is "dark"?
This seemed mainly pathetic to me. Don't people have to be at least a little scary to be "dark"?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:58 PM on September 23, 2012 [10 favorites]
This seemed mainly pathetic to me. Don't people have to be at least a little scary to be "dark"?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:58 PM on September 23, 2012 [10 favorites]
Man, I wish she had interviewed women who actually do this for real, rather than pretending to be one of them. This doesn't tell us anything about what this 'world' is actually like. It seems a little lazy, to be honest.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:00 PM on September 23, 2012 [60 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:00 PM on September 23, 2012 [60 favorites]
Wait... you mean there's a part of this world that isn't dark?
Payday.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:02 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Payday.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:02 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
OK, now some guy has to write the article where he pays the $2,400, then is broke, then poses as a sugar daddy.
posted by steinsaltz at 4:04 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by steinsaltz at 4:04 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Why is it always sugar and daddies? I would rather be known as an online umami uncle.
posted by michaelh at 4:04 PM on September 23, 2012 [54 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 4:04 PM on September 23, 2012 [54 favorites]
Why is it always sugar and daddies? I would rather be known as an online umami
uncle.
You can get OVAs for Online Umami Uncle, it's actually not bad.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:10 PM on September 23, 2012 [27 favorites]
uncle.
You can get OVAs for Online Umami Uncle, it's actually not bad.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:10 PM on September 23, 2012 [27 favorites]
...men seeking escorts place me in an entirely different category. That category was “disposable,” and “transient,” and “just for fun.” The men I met during this experiment are masters of compartmentalization. The one box they just never wanted to touch was emotional commitment. It's amazing how much the money allowed them to keep that at bay.
Isn't that the whole point of the service? This piece strikes incredibly judgey and condescending, especially for someone who has spent so little time in the community she is writing about.
It's like if she were to go to great lengths to make a costume and attend an anime convention, spend the entire convention being buddy-buddy with other cosplayers, and then go home and write about how how childish/immature/socially awkward/etc. the people in the cosplay community are. (Not to equate cosplayers with the johns discussed in the article.)
Showbiz_liz has is right. This is just lazy.
posted by Kevtaro at 4:15 PM on September 23, 2012 [8 favorites]
Isn't that the whole point of the service? This piece strikes incredibly judgey and condescending, especially for someone who has spent so little time in the community she is writing about.
It's like if she were to go to great lengths to make a costume and attend an anime convention, spend the entire convention being buddy-buddy with other cosplayers, and then go home and write about how how childish/immature/socially awkward/etc. the people in the cosplay community are. (Not to equate cosplayers with the johns discussed in the article.)
Showbiz_liz has is right. This is just lazy.
posted by Kevtaro at 4:15 PM on September 23, 2012 [8 favorites]
She wrote a conclusive article based on three meetings? Why lady, you're a regular Seymour Hersh.
posted by jaduncan at 4:17 PM on September 23, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 4:17 PM on September 23, 2012 [8 favorites]
Rather than escorts, which has been a "thing" for pretty much forever, I was hoping this article would focus on *actual* online Sugar Daddies. What I mean are the guys who buy gifts for their female Facebook friends. Either by culling someone's news feed: "gee, I really wish I could afford this..." or by looking at their "Amazon wish list" (a concept I find deplorable, really) they are able to provide just the right gift, with little being said about recompense.
I have several female friends who have announced that they've received gifts, often anonymously, from "friends" on Facebook. A pair of headphones for a DJ, a video camera for a cosplayer, books and DVDs for others, etc. Their reactions range from "this is creepy, there's no way I'm keeping this" to "OMG! So stoked! THANK YOU!"
It's cringe-inducing for me to see this happening, because I *have* to suspect there are strings (or at least expectations) attached to such gifts ("How about sending me a sexy video on that camera I just bought you? etc.) but at the same time I don't want to rain all over somebody's windfall.
THAT is the article that really needs to be written, I think.
posted by ShutterBun at 4:18 PM on September 23, 2012 [6 favorites]
I have several female friends who have announced that they've received gifts, often anonymously, from "friends" on Facebook. A pair of headphones for a DJ, a video camera for a cosplayer, books and DVDs for others, etc. Their reactions range from "this is creepy, there's no way I'm keeping this" to "OMG! So stoked! THANK YOU!"
It's cringe-inducing for me to see this happening, because I *have* to suspect there are strings (or at least expectations) attached to such gifts ("How about sending me a sexy video on that camera I just bought you? etc.) but at the same time I don't want to rain all over somebody's windfall.
THAT is the article that really needs to be written, I think.
posted by ShutterBun at 4:18 PM on September 23, 2012 [6 favorites]
I have no where near the money or inclination to participate in being a Sugar Daddy, but every time I, as someone using online dating services read another article by someone faking it my heart dies a little.
posted by bswinburn at 4:20 PM on September 23, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by bswinburn at 4:20 PM on September 23, 2012 [8 favorites]
but at the same time I don't want to rain all over somebody's windfall.
That's the sugar daddy's role...
I've gotten unexpected Amazon gifts from complete strangers; it's nothing like this though.
posted by MartinWisse at 4:26 PM on September 23, 2012
That's the sugar daddy's role...
I've gotten unexpected Amazon gifts from complete strangers; it's nothing like this though.
posted by MartinWisse at 4:26 PM on September 23, 2012
re: someone faking it
I would imagine that there's some lower levels of fraud going on there somewhere, and if I were a paying customer of one of those types of online dating sites I'd imagine I'd be asking for some sort of remuneration.
Either the individuals have knowingly misrepresented themselves by creating a fake profile, and/or the company is knowingly allowing people to misrepresent themselves. Either way the customer is paying for a service that is not actually being provided.
posted by Blue_Villain at 4:28 PM on September 23, 2012
I would imagine that there's some lower levels of fraud going on there somewhere, and if I were a paying customer of one of those types of online dating sites I'd imagine I'd be asking for some sort of remuneration.
Either the individuals have knowingly misrepresented themselves by creating a fake profile, and/or the company is knowingly allowing people to misrepresent themselves. Either way the customer is paying for a service that is not actually being provided.
posted by Blue_Villain at 4:28 PM on September 23, 2012
I have several female friends who have announced that they've received gifts, often anonymously, from "friends" on Facebook. A pair of headphones for a DJ, a video camera for a cosplayer, books and DVDs for others, etc. Their reactions range from "this is creepy, there's no way I'm keeping this" to "OMG! So stoked! THANK YOU!"
I wonder what percentage of people who receive such gifts for being pretty young women aren't really pretty young women? Perhaps there's a community of hustlers (of variable ages and sexes and irrelevant physical appearance) who run coquettish online personae in order to rake in the gifts, and also an ecosystem of people laundering valuable vaguely feminine-looking consumer goods on eBay for them? Also, another community of attractive-looking women who make their money posing for photos, in various wigs and costumes, to provide props for these scams?
posted by acb at 4:29 PM on September 23, 2012 [5 favorites]
I wonder what percentage of people who receive such gifts for being pretty young women aren't really pretty young women? Perhaps there's a community of hustlers (of variable ages and sexes and irrelevant physical appearance) who run coquettish online personae in order to rake in the gifts, and also an ecosystem of people laundering valuable vaguely feminine-looking consumer goods on eBay for them? Also, another community of attractive-looking women who make their money posing for photos, in various wigs and costumes, to provide props for these scams?
posted by acb at 4:29 PM on September 23, 2012 [5 favorites]
Among the people I've seen it happen to, all are at least good-looking enough IRL to warrant such attention from strangers/stalkers. But then there are even a few who will go so far as to post a cute picture and give a little "hint-hint, I've added something to my wish list" or something along those lines.
I haven't yet correlated the data on how often these are the same people who complain about getting "creepy messages from pervs" on a regular basis.
posted by ShutterBun at 4:35 PM on September 23, 2012
I haven't yet correlated the data on how often these are the same people who complain about getting "creepy messages from pervs" on a regular basis.
posted by ShutterBun at 4:35 PM on September 23, 2012
it's nothing like this though .
posted by MartinWisse
Is there a "tl;dw" description for that video available?
posted by ShutterBun at 4:36 PM on September 23, 2012
posted by MartinWisse
Is there a "tl;dw" description for that video available?
posted by ShutterBun at 4:36 PM on September 23, 2012
I would imagine that there's some lower levels of fraud going on there somewhere
I don't get it. Isn't prostitution, outside of Vegas, already illegal? Isn't this already operating outside the parameters of the law?
posted by stroke_count at 4:44 PM on September 23, 2012
I don't get it. Isn't prostitution, outside of Vegas, already illegal? Isn't this already operating outside the parameters of the law?
posted by stroke_count at 4:44 PM on September 23, 2012
I don't think online dating counts as prostitution.
posted by Blue_Villain at 4:51 PM on September 23, 2012
posted by Blue_Villain at 4:51 PM on September 23, 2012
I've wondered about the legality before. I'm not allowed to pay $20 for sex, but I am pretty sure I would be legit to pay someone's rent and expenses and if they happened to want to sleep with me, well, we are consenting adults...
But I totally agree with the criticisms of the article as facile and lazy. There are interesting things to be said on this topic, but this piece wasn't it.
posted by Forktine at 5:05 PM on September 23, 2012 [5 favorites]
But I totally agree with the criticisms of the article as facile and lazy. There are interesting things to be said on this topic, but this piece wasn't it.
posted by Forktine at 5:05 PM on September 23, 2012 [5 favorites]
You can get OVAs for Online Umami Uncle, it's actually not bad.
Ya know, I realize this is probably a joke, but then I remembered there's anime about magical girl personifications of World War II fighter jets, and now I'm wondering.
posted by JHarris at 5:06 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Ya know, I realize this is probably a joke, but then I remembered there's anime about magical girl personifications of World War II fighter jets, and now I'm wondering.
posted by JHarris at 5:06 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Man, I wish she had interviewed women who actually do this for real, rather than pretending to be one of them.
The fifth paragraph points to an odd little piece that she refers to as an "interview" but appears to be a first person account from someone who does this for a living.
It seems a little lazy, to be honest.
Yeah, deeply unimpressive showing by the author here. I almost hate to see it on Metafilter in that it will only encourage further lightweight articles to be written.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:09 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
The fifth paragraph points to an odd little piece that she refers to as an "interview" but appears to be a first person account from someone who does this for a living.
It seems a little lazy, to be honest.
Yeah, deeply unimpressive showing by the author here. I almost hate to see it on Metafilter in that it will only encourage further lightweight articles to be written.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:09 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
I have talked to people who people describe dating in general as if it consisted primarily of men giving money or gifts to women in return for grudgingly provided sexual favors. This attitude came with an unhidden contempt for a man who did not bribe a woman with cash or gifts or a woman who wanted sex for its own sake. Emotional concerns other than jealousy and lust seemed entirely alien to this whole schema. This is more commonly seen when you get further away from white middle class social mores. And then of course there is the Anarcho-Feminist critique which frames all sexual commitment as romanticized prostitution (at least within heterosexual relationships, as long as gender inequality exists).
What strikes me in reading this article is that everyone is trying to have some ownership of their sexuality and gender identity without feeling dirty, and generally doing a pretty bad job of it the way the story is told at least. It shouldn't surprise to see that people trying to get their emotional and physical needs met are insecure and needy for reassurance or approval - or projecting the "filthyness" of the situation onto others (whether a john describing another john having a foot fetish as if it were scandalous or the author intrigued enough to want to meet and describe these men but incapable of describing them without shaming them for expressing their needs or describing them with a condescending pity / contempt).
Maybe the problem here is that what these people are attempting is a poor match for their own enculturation - they can't get what they want without also being ashamed of it. The proper rituals are not being observed, or they are being done wrong or out of order in some way. From a global and historical perspective our modern concept of dating and attraction; things like not putting out until the third date, a focus on a "unique" attraction (that can exist sequentially with other "unique" attractions if there is not too fast a turnover time, but never in parallel) etc. etc. is far from universal. And is it any wonder that the specific rituals we require in courtship here and now could be a bad match for some people's needs, at least as much as arranged marriages or ritualized abduction was often a bad match in our not so distant past?
posted by idiopath at 5:10 PM on September 23, 2012 [19 favorites]
What strikes me in reading this article is that everyone is trying to have some ownership of their sexuality and gender identity without feeling dirty, and generally doing a pretty bad job of it the way the story is told at least. It shouldn't surprise to see that people trying to get their emotional and physical needs met are insecure and needy for reassurance or approval - or projecting the "filthyness" of the situation onto others (whether a john describing another john having a foot fetish as if it were scandalous or the author intrigued enough to want to meet and describe these men but incapable of describing them without shaming them for expressing their needs or describing them with a condescending pity / contempt).
Maybe the problem here is that what these people are attempting is a poor match for their own enculturation - they can't get what they want without also being ashamed of it. The proper rituals are not being observed, or they are being done wrong or out of order in some way. From a global and historical perspective our modern concept of dating and attraction; things like not putting out until the third date, a focus on a "unique" attraction (that can exist sequentially with other "unique" attractions if there is not too fast a turnover time, but never in parallel) etc. etc. is far from universal. And is it any wonder that the specific rituals we require in courtship here and now could be a bad match for some people's needs, at least as much as arranged marriages or ritualized abduction was often a bad match in our not so distant past?
posted by idiopath at 5:10 PM on September 23, 2012 [19 favorites]
I have several female friends who have announced that they've received gifts, often anonymously, from "friends" on Facebook. A pair of headphones for a DJ, a video camera for a cosplayer, books and DVDs for others, etc. Their reactions range from "this is creepy, there's no way I'm keeping this" to "OMG! So stoked! THANK YOU!"
It's cringe-inducing for me to see this happening, because I *have* to suspect there are strings (or at least expectations) attached to such gifts ("How about sending me a sexy video on that camera I just bought you? etc.) but at the same time I don't want to rain all over somebody's windfall.
I'm not sure to what extent this is what you think it is.
I can't speak for anyone other than myself, and I'm sure there are quid-pro-quo types out there, but I've done this with no strings and no expectations (or more accurately, actual expectation that I don't get anything out of it). Just to brighten the day of someone I like.
I consider them IRL friends - people I've hung out with (and would be if not for distance, hence facebook), and it might prompt the kind of facebook thank you that creeps you out. But facebooking that sort of thing is something not everyone does.
Recipient is not always female, not always pretty, but I imagine that when someone who isn't pretty says "OMG!", it doesn't get vividly remembered because it's not assumed to be creepy.
I don't give as much as I should to charity, but I like to help people I know.
Go do something nice for someone, no strings attached, and make the world a less creepy place :-)
posted by anonymisc at 5:11 PM on September 23, 2012 [13 favorites]
It's cringe-inducing for me to see this happening, because I *have* to suspect there are strings (or at least expectations) attached to such gifts ("How about sending me a sexy video on that camera I just bought you? etc.) but at the same time I don't want to rain all over somebody's windfall.
I'm not sure to what extent this is what you think it is.
I can't speak for anyone other than myself, and I'm sure there are quid-pro-quo types out there, but I've done this with no strings and no expectations (or more accurately, actual expectation that I don't get anything out of it). Just to brighten the day of someone I like.
I consider them IRL friends - people I've hung out with (and would be if not for distance, hence facebook), and it might prompt the kind of facebook thank you that creeps you out. But facebooking that sort of thing is something not everyone does.
Recipient is not always female, not always pretty, but I imagine that when someone who isn't pretty says "OMG!", it doesn't get vividly remembered because it's not assumed to be creepy.
I don't give as much as I should to charity, but I like to help people I know.
Go do something nice for someone, no strings attached, and make the world a less creepy place :-)
posted by anonymisc at 5:11 PM on September 23, 2012 [13 favorites]
I've seen the online gift thing be non-sexual (in other words, I bought stuff for a friend of mine from her wishlist and I have no sexual desire there) (I do only know her online though). A friend of mine gets the occasional gift or game or something as well and the public reaction is not always the real one and even the real one isn't always clearcut. You can be stoked that you got a new game and someone was thoughtful enough to buy it AND creeped out a little.
There was a huge culture of buying memberships for people on livejournal and dreamwidth for a while. I haven't seen it happen quite as much recently but it was pretty endemic for a while.
I can see where it would overlap with sugar daddy stuff but I do think it has a wider uptake than just pretty girls getting stuff from dudes.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:15 PM on September 23, 2012
There was a huge culture of buying memberships for people on livejournal and dreamwidth for a while. I haven't seen it happen quite as much recently but it was pretty endemic for a while.
I can see where it would overlap with sugar daddy stuff but I do think it has a wider uptake than just pretty girls getting stuff from dudes.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:15 PM on September 23, 2012
Attempting to form or solidify bonds by sharing resources is so basic that every social animal does it. I mean even ants and bees form their colonies this way. Yeah can be about sex. But it's also about all the other things we want other human animals for (safety, familiarity, comfort...).
posted by idiopath at 5:30 PM on September 23, 2012
posted by idiopath at 5:30 PM on September 23, 2012
Oh my god. Is this what Amazon's Wishlist is for? Have people been thinking I'm trolling for a Sugar Daddy? I thought it was just to bookmark products you were interested in for later research. Or payday.
posted by sourwookie at 5:33 PM on September 23, 2012 [13 favorites]
posted by sourwookie at 5:33 PM on September 23, 2012 [13 favorites]
Given some different and more desperate choices in my life, I could totally see myself being one of the men described in the article. Earn enough money, and you begin to believe that's what you're valued for. Earning a great deal of money or wanting more creates the same behavior: prices for every object floating in mental space like a a real-life Fight Club. Combine that with poor self-esteem and the desire to be - or be rescued by - the mythical white knight, and you have all the makings of the dysfunctional relationships portrayed in the article.
The saddest part is that they often want it both ways: the full "girlfriend experience" but with the contracted disposability of a commercial lease. Commitment with distance.
We're all so desperate to be liked for ourselves, and so cautious of being hurt, that we're convinced we must bring every artifice into play just to be treated well.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 5:33 PM on September 23, 2012 [12 favorites]
The saddest part is that they often want it both ways: the full "girlfriend experience" but with the contracted disposability of a commercial lease. Commitment with distance.
We're all so desperate to be liked for ourselves, and so cautious of being hurt, that we're convinced we must bring every artifice into play just to be treated well.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 5:33 PM on September 23, 2012 [12 favorites]
Oh my god. Is this what Amazon's Wishlist is for? Have people been thinking I'm trolling for a Sugar Daddy? I thought it was just to bookmark products you were interested in for later research. Or payday.
Amazon has a separate, private list for your purpose, called "Shopping List".
You've totally been trolling for a Sugar Daddy.
(Actually, the Wish List is mostly used for christmas shopping or birthdays. And yeah, probably even more commonly used as a shopping list for possible future purchases :-)
posted by anonymisc at 5:43 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Amazon has a separate, private list for your purpose, called "Shopping List".
You've totally been trolling for a Sugar Daddy.
(Actually, the Wish List is mostly used for christmas shopping or birthdays. And yeah, probably even more commonly used as a shopping list for possible future purchases :-)
posted by anonymisc at 5:43 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Oh my god. Is this what Amazon's Wishlist is for? Have people been thinking I'm trolling for a Sugar Daddy?
OMG right back! You had better return that set of diamond earrings right damn now.
posted by jaduncan at 5:48 PM on September 23, 2012 [6 favorites]
OMG right back! You had better return that set of diamond earrings right damn now.
posted by jaduncan at 5:48 PM on September 23, 2012 [6 favorites]
Attempting to form or solidify bonds by sharing resources is so basic that every social animal does it.
Though, my observation is that it's culturally less of a thing in the USA. I spent many formative years in a place where there was was a lot of "we're in this together" spirit, but here in the USA have found that the country runs on this principle a lot less. (And when sharing for common cause does occur, there is enough stigma involved as to often cause counter-productive behaviors that defeat the point.)
posted by anonymisc at 5:59 PM on September 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
Though, my observation is that it's culturally less of a thing in the USA. I spent many formative years in a place where there was was a lot of "we're in this together" spirit, but here in the USA have found that the country runs on this principle a lot less. (And when sharing for common cause does occur, there is enough stigma involved as to often cause counter-productive behaviors that defeat the point.)
posted by anonymisc at 5:59 PM on September 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
The more money you make, the less important are the things it can actually get you (to a certain degree, anyway). MeFi's Own cstross and jscalzi write about it a bit.
Ol' Don Juan Financial Wizard will never be able to buy enough class to be able to control his urge to extol the virtues of Prosecco over his date's wishes. Nice Guy Paul will never be able to buy the author's love, even though she was tempted to sell him a bunch of other "stuff." White knights will never be able to purchase an end to the heroin addictions of their favorite escorts, no matter how many times they pay for bail or suboxone.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:08 PM on September 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
Ol' Don Juan Financial Wizard will never be able to buy enough class to be able to control his urge to extol the virtues of Prosecco over his date's wishes. Nice Guy Paul will never be able to buy the author's love, even though she was tempted to sell him a bunch of other "stuff." White knights will never be able to purchase an end to the heroin addictions of their favorite escorts, no matter how many times they pay for bail or suboxone.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:08 PM on September 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
stroke_count: Isn't prostitution, outside of Vegas, already illegal?
To someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet for a moment: There are parts of Nevada where prostitution is legal, but Vegas isn't one of them.
posted by baf at 6:23 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
To someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet for a moment: There are parts of Nevada where prostitution is legal, but Vegas isn't one of them.
posted by baf at 6:23 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Brothels are legal in every county in Nevada except Washoe (AKA Reno) and Clark (AKA Vegas). Prostitution of the streetwalker variety is illegal everywhere in Nevada. Not that it doesn't occur, of course, but it's technically illegal. So, there you go.........
posted by but no cigar at 6:33 PM on September 23, 2012
posted by but no cigar at 6:33 PM on September 23, 2012
Oh my god. Is this what Amazon's Wishlist is for? Have people been thinking I'm trolling for a Sugar Daddy? I thought it was just to bookmark products you were interested in for later research. Or payday.
My husband's favorite username for MMOs is "Camwhore Wishlist." It's a joke he's been making since at least 2003. So yeah.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:15 PM on September 23, 2012
My husband's favorite username for MMOs is "Camwhore Wishlist." It's a joke he's been making since at least 2003. So yeah.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:15 PM on September 23, 2012
I'll admit it: If I had the money and traveled on business I'd be tempted to be a "sugar daddy."
I'm not sure I'd even care about sex; I'm in a sexless marriage which is otherwise comfortable, and can get by without. My wife and I care for each other, but there is absolutely no passion. I've never been in a passionate relationship, one where both partners are excited and enthusiastic about being with each other, whether it's dinner or conversation or sex or whatever.
I'm a schlub, have always been one one, always will be one. I'm balding and paunchy and shy and not conventionally handsome. I would love to experience, even once, someone who I find smart and attractive being interested in me. When I was young, I thought it might happen at some point, but I recognize now the only way I can ever get close is to pay someone to pretend. If they were a good enough actor, I wouldn't give a shit. Afterwards I'd probably feel a bit crappy, but at least there would be a memorable few hours, a few times per year.
It's pathetic and shallow and you know what? I don't care. Imagine waking up in your late 40s and realizing that being the focus of someone's passion is a thing which is never going to be part of your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, wah, wah, wah. Still hurts like a motherfucker.
posted by quid pro quo at 7:18 PM on September 23, 2012 [41 favorites]
I'm not sure I'd even care about sex; I'm in a sexless marriage which is otherwise comfortable, and can get by without. My wife and I care for each other, but there is absolutely no passion. I've never been in a passionate relationship, one where both partners are excited and enthusiastic about being with each other, whether it's dinner or conversation or sex or whatever.
I'm a schlub, have always been one one, always will be one. I'm balding and paunchy and shy and not conventionally handsome. I would love to experience, even once, someone who I find smart and attractive being interested in me. When I was young, I thought it might happen at some point, but I recognize now the only way I can ever get close is to pay someone to pretend. If they were a good enough actor, I wouldn't give a shit. Afterwards I'd probably feel a bit crappy, but at least there would be a memorable few hours, a few times per year.
It's pathetic and shallow and you know what? I don't care. Imagine waking up in your late 40s and realizing that being the focus of someone's passion is a thing which is never going to be part of your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, wah, wah, wah. Still hurts like a motherfucker.
posted by quid pro quo at 7:18 PM on September 23, 2012 [41 favorites]
She wrote a conclusive article based on three meetings? Why lady, you're a regular Seymour Hersh.
She claims to have met some others: "All the men I met-- this is just a sample..." And yet she didn't manage to work in any other anecdotes, just three suspiciously archetypal characters: the sleaze, the type-a mover and the pathetic, sad guy who's taken advantage of. I'm calling Monkey Fishing.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:21 PM on September 23, 2012
She claims to have met some others: "All the men I met-- this is just a sample..." And yet she didn't manage to work in any other anecdotes, just three suspiciously archetypal characters: the sleaze, the type-a mover and the pathetic, sad guy who's taken advantage of. I'm calling Monkey Fishing.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:21 PM on September 23, 2012
My checkbook says there is no possibility that I'm a "sugar daddy". However, if you like long walks on a beach, etc.....
posted by Mojojojo at 7:22 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Mojojojo at 7:22 PM on September 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
And pina coladas...
Guess, I needed to add that And getting caught in the rain
posted by Mojojojo at 7:39 PM on September 23, 2012
Guess, I needed to add that And getting caught in the rain
posted by Mojojojo at 7:39 PM on September 23, 2012
long walks on a beach
And pina coladas....
...so my plan is we order a few pina coladas then not pay the bill and run really far down the beach so they can't catch us. After that we should probably keep walking, just in case they've called the police.
Call me.
posted by jaduncan at 7:39 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
And pina coladas....
...so my plan is we order a few pina coladas then not pay the bill and run really far down the beach so they can't catch us. After that we should probably keep walking, just in case they've called the police.
Call me.
posted by jaduncan at 7:39 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
and run really far down the beach so they can't catch us
I know the perfect place...
In the dunes on the Cape
posted by Mojojojo at 7:42 PM on September 23, 2012
I know the perfect place...
In the dunes on the Cape
posted by Mojojojo at 7:42 PM on September 23, 2012
"Call me." Maybe
posted by HuronBob at 7:46 PM on September 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by HuronBob at 7:46 PM on September 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
For those of you looking for the thoughts of someone who has actually done this, I found this series of interviews with a "sugar baby" really, really interesting:
Portrait of a Sugar Baby (Part 1 and Part 2)
A Sugar Baby Leaves the Business
posted by lunasol at 8:12 PM on September 23, 2012 [11 favorites]
Portrait of a Sugar Baby (Part 1 and Part 2)
A Sugar Baby Leaves the Business
posted by lunasol at 8:12 PM on September 23, 2012 [11 favorites]
I found the reasons that the Sugar Baby left the business interesting. In particular her sense of guilt regarding emotions that clients were expressing. Overall that story makes it seem like she had inappropriate boundaries for that line of work (not talking about price, ambiguity for the clients about whether it was an emotional situation or not).
posted by idiopath at 8:58 PM on September 23, 2012
posted by idiopath at 8:58 PM on September 23, 2012
I don't get it. Isn't prostitution, outside of Vegas, already illegal?
Sugar daddies aren't paying for sex per se, they are paying for a woman's time. Her exclusive sexual and romantic attention during her prime getting-hitched and making babies years, with the explicit arrangement they are not going to marry her, acknowledge any babies or support her in any way once the arrangement is over. Men expect fidelity from their mistresses if they fully support them, less so if they don't and a lot of those arrangements have traditionally ended fairly amicably when the woman meets a guy who will marry her, a guy of lower status than the sugar daddy natch.
With the advent of birth control, feminism and the accompanying relaxing of sexual and social mores obvs this arrangement isn't as common as it once was, but it was once very, very common. And it still makes sense for some people apparently.
posted by fshgrl at 9:14 PM on September 23, 2012 [6 favorites]
Sugar daddies aren't paying for sex per se, they are paying for a woman's time. Her exclusive sexual and romantic attention during her prime getting-hitched and making babies years, with the explicit arrangement they are not going to marry her, acknowledge any babies or support her in any way once the arrangement is over. Men expect fidelity from their mistresses if they fully support them, less so if they don't and a lot of those arrangements have traditionally ended fairly amicably when the woman meets a guy who will marry her, a guy of lower status than the sugar daddy natch.
With the advent of birth control, feminism and the accompanying relaxing of sexual and social mores obvs this arrangement isn't as common as it once was, but it was once very, very common. And it still makes sense for some people apparently.
posted by fshgrl at 9:14 PM on September 23, 2012 [6 favorites]
Sugar daddies aren't paying for sex per se, they are paying for a woman's time.
Put another way, they are paying for a courtesan.
posted by jaduncan at 9:19 PM on September 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
Put another way, they are paying for a courtesan.
posted by jaduncan at 9:19 PM on September 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
Portrait of a Sugar Baby (Part 1 and Part 2)
A Sugar Baby Leaves the Business
Yeah jaduncan. And the articles linked above sound more like straight up prostitution. The girls I knew in college with sugar daddies were basically just dating older guys that paid their rent/ car payment and were upfront about not wanting marraige. They didn't have monthly rates or multiple guys, in fact the two I'm thinking of had probably only had one, maybe two boyfriends before meeting the older man. They guys were pretty normal and they met them at bars or work, not through agencies, met each others friends to an extent, stayed over etc. It was more Shop Girl than Pretty Woman.
posted by fshgrl at 9:27 PM on September 23, 2012
A Sugar Baby Leaves the Business
Yeah jaduncan. And the articles linked above sound more like straight up prostitution. The girls I knew in college with sugar daddies were basically just dating older guys that paid their rent/ car payment and were upfront about not wanting marraige. They didn't have monthly rates or multiple guys, in fact the two I'm thinking of had probably only had one, maybe two boyfriends before meeting the older man. They guys were pretty normal and they met them at bars or work, not through agencies, met each others friends to an extent, stayed over etc. It was more Shop Girl than Pretty Woman.
posted by fshgrl at 9:27 PM on September 23, 2012
Yeah jaduncan.
I know about this; I did work similar to it when I was 18 and needed the gold pieces.
I was a bit more formal about the relationship being commercial, but there was lots of massaging egos (paid for) and a lot less massaging bodies (let's face it, when you're 18 and women in their 20s and 30s are offering you're occasionally going to give in to wooing).
posted by jaduncan at 9:35 PM on September 23, 2012
I know about this; I did work similar to it when I was 18 and needed the gold pieces.
I was a bit more formal about the relationship being commercial, but there was lots of massaging egos (paid for) and a lot less massaging bodies (let's face it, when you're 18 and women in their 20s and 30s are offering you're occasionally going to give in to wooing).
posted by jaduncan at 9:35 PM on September 23, 2012
Inside the dark world of unprincipled journalists who waste ordinary peoples' time and money and leak their personal information.
posted by w0mbat at 9:51 PM on September 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by w0mbat at 9:51 PM on September 23, 2012 [4 favorites]
If they were a good enough actor, I wouldn't give a shit. Afterwards I'd probably feel a bit crappy, but at least there would be a memorable few hours, a few times per year.
I think you'd feel worse after replaying the memory and knowing in your heart, she didn't want you and that at its most genuine, it's driven by pity (which she had to focus on after cash was in hand to be a "good enough" actress.)
posted by discopolo at 10:12 PM on September 23, 2012
I think you'd feel worse after replaying the memory and knowing in your heart, she didn't want you and that at its most genuine, it's driven by pity (which she had to focus on after cash was in hand to be a "good enough" actress.)
posted by discopolo at 10:12 PM on September 23, 2012
I think you'd feel worse after replaying the memory and knowing in your heart, she didn't want you and that at its most genuine, it's driven by pity
Sadly, that describes a few real relationships I know of.
In any case it seems to me that if your boundaries are good you can enjoy the fantasy of something even while you know it's not real. If your boundaries are poor however, it sounds like a recipe for misery.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:20 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Sadly, that describes a few real relationships I know of.
In any case it seems to me that if your boundaries are good you can enjoy the fantasy of something even while you know it's not real. If your boundaries are poor however, it sounds like a recipe for misery.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:20 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think you'd feel worse after replaying the memory and knowing in your heart
If you dream of flying a 777 and never will, is paying to spend a few hours in a flight simulator a good enough proxy to feel like you know what that would be like (and maybe give you some contentment), or would it feel hollow, false or worse?
I could see it going either way.
When I said I'd be tempted if I had the cash, it's not from an ethical standpoint that I hesitate--it's from not being sure what the answer to the above question is, and whether the potential downside outweighs the potential upside.
I recognize my metaphor is a bit facile.
posted by quid pro quo at 11:20 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
If you dream of flying a 777 and never will, is paying to spend a few hours in a flight simulator a good enough proxy to feel like you know what that would be like (and maybe give you some contentment), or would it feel hollow, false or worse?
I could see it going either way.
When I said I'd be tempted if I had the cash, it's not from an ethical standpoint that I hesitate--it's from not being sure what the answer to the above question is, and whether the potential downside outweighs the potential upside.
I recognize my metaphor is a bit facile.
posted by quid pro quo at 11:20 PM on September 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think qpq should just go ahead and hire an actual prostitute, and not worry about the moralists and their clucking tongues. You only live once, and then you're dead. If you spend your life in a sexless marriage, you wasted your one shot at life on a sexless marriage.
posted by Sloop John B at 11:55 PM on September 23, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by Sloop John B at 11:55 PM on September 23, 2012 [5 favorites]
I think qpq shared a lot and we should be kind, and refrain from speculating on what was not shared and what they should do about it.
posted by CautionToTheWind at 2:51 AM on September 24, 2012 [14 favorites]
posted by CautionToTheWind at 2:51 AM on September 24, 2012 [14 favorites]
I find this entire discussion amazingly sexist, entirely focused on 'sugard daddies' and women, ignoring the very idea of 'sugar mommies', or that either one could be interested in either gender.
But, you know, I guess you might think that sort of thing never happens amongst GLBTQ folks.
Except if you're beautiful and nice, you might find some older gay gentlemen can be highly generous, just for the sake of your company. Some find status in the beauty of those with whom they keep company.
posted by Goofyy at 4:57 AM on September 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
But, you know, I guess you might think that sort of thing never happens amongst GLBTQ folks.
Except if you're beautiful and nice, you might find some older gay gentlemen can be highly generous, just for the sake of your company. Some find status in the beauty of those with whom they keep company.
posted by Goofyy at 4:57 AM on September 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
"Except if you're beautiful and nice, you might find some older gay gentlemen can be highly generous, just for the sake of your company. Some find status in the beauty of those with whom they keep company."
posted by availablelight at 5:21 AM on September 24, 2012
posted by availablelight at 5:21 AM on September 24, 2012
But, you know, I guess you might think that sort of thing never happens amongst GLBTQ folks.
If the article was meant as an overview of the phenomenon, then yeah, it missed this big time. If it was more just "hey, let me tell you a few anecdotes about my odd 'experiment'," then I don't think it was such an oversight, though I think it is still a big part of the context.
In the US, almost all the people I've known in sugar daddy situations have been gay. I'm not sure if there's something unusual about the people I've known, or if it is really is way more common, but thinking about it I am struck by how many I've known. When I was young I knew young gay guys being supported; now that I'm getting to be an old fart I know some guys who are taking on the supporter role, some of whom had been the supported when they were younger. And for whatever an anecdote is worth, they have all been happier and far less pathetic situations than the descriptions of this author's interactions with the guys.
posted by Forktine at 5:57 AM on September 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
If the article was meant as an overview of the phenomenon, then yeah, it missed this big time. If it was more just "hey, let me tell you a few anecdotes about my odd 'experiment'," then I don't think it was such an oversight, though I think it is still a big part of the context.
In the US, almost all the people I've known in sugar daddy situations have been gay. I'm not sure if there's something unusual about the people I've known, or if it is really is way more common, but thinking about it I am struck by how many I've known. When I was young I knew young gay guys being supported; now that I'm getting to be an old fart I know some guys who are taking on the supporter role, some of whom had been the supported when they were younger. And for whatever an anecdote is worth, they have all been happier and far less pathetic situations than the descriptions of this author's interactions with the guys.
posted by Forktine at 5:57 AM on September 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
Day was when such arrangements were considered win-win and a part of gay culture. But that was when it was tragically more common for young guys to be shunned by their families, if it was discovered they were gay. Adversity strengthened the community.
posted by Goofyy at 6:45 AM on September 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Goofyy at 6:45 AM on September 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
If you spend your life in a sexless marriage, you wasted your one shot at life on a sexless marriage.
Or you could convert to Hinduism and start believing in reincarnation. (I was raised Hindu and whenever I made a "you only live once" comment, my sister would say,"I don't know what religion you'repracticing but..." Man, she used to be a super funny kid.)
posted by discopolo at 7:12 AM on September 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
Or you could convert to Hinduism and start believing in reincarnation. (I was raised Hindu and whenever I made a "you only live once" comment, my sister would say,"I don't know what religion you'repracticing but..." Man, she used to be a super funny kid.)
posted by discopolo at 7:12 AM on September 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
Re sugar mommies: I investigated it for a while and found this to be exceedingly rare. Rare enough in hetero contexts; super rare in queer circles. I think a large part of it is due to the stigma against women paying for anything resembling sex.
There's also financial domination, which is similar, but the power dynamics are subtly different.
posted by divabat at 9:34 AM on September 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
There's also financial domination, which is similar, but the power dynamics are subtly different.
posted by divabat at 9:34 AM on September 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
but every time I, as someone using online dating services read another article by someone faking it my heart dies a little.
Yeah, pissing in the communal pool FOR SCIENCE!/journalism and hurting legitimate users of both genders. At least it can still work: I closed my account on a (regular) dating site today after meeting someone there.
posted by ersatz at 10:14 AM on September 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yeah, pissing in the communal pool FOR SCIENCE!/journalism and hurting legitimate users of both genders. At least it can still work: I closed my account on a (regular) dating site today after meeting someone there.
posted by ersatz at 10:14 AM on September 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
If you dream of flying a 777 and never will, is paying to spend a few hours in a flight simulator a good enough proxy to feel like you know what that would be like (and maybe give you some contentment), or would it feel hollow, false or worse?
Speaking only for myself and my paltry 20 hours logged in a Cessna, my experience with a Boeing 737 simulator was about the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on.
And I parked the sucker at LaGuardia.
posted by Gelatin at 10:29 AM on September 24, 2012
Speaking only for myself and my paltry 20 hours logged in a Cessna, my experience with a Boeing 737 simulator was about the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on.
And I parked the sucker at LaGuardia.
posted by Gelatin at 10:29 AM on September 24, 2012
I am not sure how this is quantitatively different from the people who get married for security. I agree that it's a lazy article, though.
posted by corb at 10:56 AM on September 24, 2012
posted by corb at 10:56 AM on September 24, 2012
Voice Actress Tara Strong asked me to be her sugar daddy earlier this month.
True story. (Even if she was just trolling.)
posted by radwolf76 at 10:56 AM on September 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
True story. (Even if she was just trolling.)
posted by radwolf76 at 10:56 AM on September 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Except if you're beautiful and nice, you might find some older gay gentlemen can be highly generous, just for the sake of your company.
I must sheepishly admit that it never occurred to me to discuss this because I find it so perfectly normal as to be unremarkable.
That's some deeply held sexism I've got going there.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:13 AM on September 24, 2012
I must sheepishly admit that it never occurred to me to discuss this because I find it so perfectly normal as to be unremarkable.
That's some deeply held sexism I've got going there.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:13 AM on September 24, 2012
For reading first-hand accounts of the life of an escort and why men use their services, a good blog is nightmare brunette.
posted by palbo at 11:59 AM on September 24, 2012
posted by palbo at 11:59 AM on September 24, 2012
I expected this to be an in-depth article based on interviews from Sugar Daddies. Saying that, I know I'm not the only person who decided to 'update' their Amazon Wishlist after reading this.
posted by joboe at 2:32 PM on September 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by joboe at 2:32 PM on September 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, in the GLBT---okay, really just the G---community, "rent boy" was a pretty common thing once, and is still not unheard of. I never appreciated quite what that meant until I moved to NYC and grasped just how hot you have to be for someone to pay West Village rent!
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 3:25 PM on September 24, 2012
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 3:25 PM on September 24, 2012
radwolf76: Voice Actress Tara Strong asked me to be her sugar daddy earlier this month.
And with those words, a thousand mefites start speculating about the exact terms of Celestia's sponsorship of Twilight Sparkle.
posted by baf at 8:09 PM on September 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
And with those words, a thousand mefites start speculating about the exact terms of Celestia's sponsorship of Twilight Sparkle.
posted by baf at 8:09 PM on September 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
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Moral reservations aside, I can see how this would be appealing to young women.
..And older men with money.
posted by flippant at 3:39 PM on September 23, 2012