Today's Hall-Of-Famer?
October 4, 2012 12:41 PM Subscribe
After years of fans complaining about their omission (including, quite frequently, fans here on the blue), Rush is finally on the list of nominees for entry into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Better yet -- this year, fans can vote on who gets in.
Rolling Stone is holding an election for a special "fan's ballot," which will count alongside the 600 other ballots from Hall of Fame members.
This year's lucky nominees:
Albert King
Chic
Deep Purple (previously)
Donna Summer (previously, a plea for her hall of fame entry also previously)
Heart
Joan Jett and the Blackhearts
Krafatwerk (previously)
the Marvelettes
the Meters
N.W.A.
Paul Butterfield Blues Band
Procol Harum
Public Enemy (previously)
Randy Newman (previously)
...and finally, Rush. (previously)
Rolling Stone is holding an election for a special "fan's ballot," which will count alongside the 600 other ballots from Hall of Fame members.
This year's lucky nominees:
Albert King
Chic
Deep Purple (previously)
Heart
Joan Jett and the Blackhearts
Krafatwerk (previously)
the Marvelettes
the Meters
N.W.A.
Paul Butterfield Blues Band
Procol Harum
Public Enemy (previously)
Randy Newman (previously)
...and finally, Rush. (previously)
German fat jokes?
posted by boo_radley at 12:47 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by boo_radley at 12:47 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
My top three votes (isn't that what the R&R HOF takes) go to other bands on that list rather than to Rush.
Sorry, your favorite band sucks. Mine probably does too.
posted by caddis at 12:47 PM on October 4, 2012
Sorry, your favorite band sucks. Mine probably does too.
posted by caddis at 12:47 PM on October 4, 2012
If this means we get to hear an awards-night jam session with Rush backing up P.E. on "Bring the Noise," I'm all for it.
posted by Mothlight at 12:48 PM on October 4, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by Mothlight at 12:48 PM on October 4, 2012 [8 favorites]
I think it is weird and maybe sad that Deep Purple is on any kind of list with the likes of Rush.
posted by Lutoslawski at 12:50 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Lutoslawski at 12:50 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Still no nomination for Big Star? Alex Chilton don't get no respect, y'all.
posted by scody at 12:51 PM on October 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by scody at 12:51 PM on October 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
Bring the Noise
away from here
Turn it up, again!
posted by Mister_A at 12:54 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
away from here
Turn it up, again!
posted by Mister_A at 12:54 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
If this means we get to hear an awards-night jam session with Rush backing up P.E. on "Bring the Noise," I'm all for it.
They should do 911 Is A Joke in 9/11 time.
posted by mannequito at 12:54 PM on October 4, 2012 [13 favorites]
They should do 911 Is A Joke in 9/11 time.
posted by mannequito at 12:54 PM on October 4, 2012 [13 favorites]
Isn't Todd Rundgren not in the hall of fame either? It doesn't seem to me like this organization is particularly respect-worthy.
posted by MattMangels at 12:55 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by MattMangels at 12:55 PM on October 4, 2012
What about Digital Underground? In 60+ years of rock and roll, how many other groups have given the world a chance to do the Hump?
posted by PlusDistance at 12:56 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by PlusDistance at 12:56 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
From now until December 3rd, you can vote right here for the nominees you'd like to see inducted. Pick up to five acts – the top five vote-getters will comprise a "fan's ballot" that will count as one of the more than 600 ballots that determine the Class of 2013.
The poll results count for 1/600 of the total vote. Which is more than zero, but not by much.
posted by thecjm at 12:56 PM on October 4, 2012
The poll results count for 1/600 of the total vote. Which is more than zero, but not by much.
posted by thecjm at 12:56 PM on October 4, 2012
The Replacements haven't been inducted? Well, colour me aggrieved.
posted by One Hand Slowclapping at 12:56 PM on October 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by One Hand Slowclapping at 12:56 PM on October 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
It's not like I follow this scene closely, so maybe I've missed something, but is there some political reason why Rush isn't already in the Hall of Fame?
From my perspective, that's like having the Religious Leader Hall of Fame, and forgetting to include Jesus.
posted by Malor at 12:58 PM on October 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
From my perspective, that's like having the Religious Leader Hall of Fame, and forgetting to include Jesus.
posted by Malor at 12:58 PM on October 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
NBC.com has its own "unofficial" poll on its site now -- I am amused to note that the results show that Rush already has more votes than all the others COMBINED.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:59 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:59 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
The local classic rock radio DJ went off on a rant recently about Beastie Boys getting into RRHF while somebody else was continually overlooked (could have been Rush, I can't remember) basically arguing that they weren't rock n roll. Possibly my favorite non-internet Get Off My Lawn! moment ever.
posted by mannequito at 12:59 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by mannequito at 12:59 PM on October 4, 2012
So how many make it in a year? Seems like some years there's a bunch and the other years only a couple. Is there a vote threshold a nominee has to pass in order to make it into The Hall?
posted by KingEdRa at 12:59 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by KingEdRa at 12:59 PM on October 4, 2012
Picking five from this list is tough. Starting/dominating/influencing and entire genre is really important, so Kraftwerk and Donna Summer are in. Rush too if you want to count them as the kings of pop prog. Then you get these either/or decisions - Joan Jett or Heart? NWA or Public Enemy? Both?
posted by thecjm at 1:01 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by thecjm at 1:01 PM on October 4, 2012
The mission statement of the museum says: "The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. is the nonprofit organization that exists to educate visitors, fans and scholars from around the world about the history and continuing significance of rock and roll music. "
I'm a fan of Public Enemy, a big fan of Kraftwerk. By what conceivable stretch of the imagination are either of these groups "rock and roll"?
This place should really be called "The Museum of Pop Musicians Who Appeal To Americans."
> but is there some political reason why Rush isn't already in the Hall of Fame?
Because there are a huge number of amazing rock bands and there are only so many they can induct each year? For example, you might argue Rush, someone else Sonic Youth, someone else King Crimson, yet another Joy Division, yet another T. Rex.
Heck, Rush is a fine band, but can you really argue that they were as important/influential as Joy Division or T. Rex?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 1:03 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm a fan of Public Enemy, a big fan of Kraftwerk. By what conceivable stretch of the imagination are either of these groups "rock and roll"?
This place should really be called "The Museum of Pop Musicians Who Appeal To Americans."
> but is there some political reason why Rush isn't already in the Hall of Fame?
Because there are a huge number of amazing rock bands and there are only so many they can induct each year? For example, you might argue Rush, someone else Sonic Youth, someone else King Crimson, yet another Joy Division, yet another T. Rex.
Heck, Rush is a fine band, but can you really argue that they were as important/influential as Joy Division or T. Rex?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 1:03 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think the Hall of Fame was just waiting for Rush to really suck before they could be inducted. But with the release of their latest album this year Rush has now achieved a solid, unbroken decade of suck, dating from Vapor Trails in 2002, and that kind of consistency warrants recognition.
posted by cribcage at 1:04 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by cribcage at 1:04 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
It's not like I follow this scene closely, so maybe I've missed something, but is there some political reason why Rush isn't already in the Hall of Fame?
From my perspective, that's like having the Religious Leader Hall of Fame, and forgetting to include Jesus.
It's cool to hate on Rush within most musical circles. They're probably the most polarizing rock band I can think of. And of course, they're the greatest rock band of all time, and anybody who doesn't think so is a big dumb dummy who doesn't understand Peart's lyrics.
posted by jbickers at 1:05 PM on October 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
From my perspective, that's like having the Religious Leader Hall of Fame, and forgetting to include Jesus.
It's cool to hate on Rush within most musical circles. They're probably the most polarizing rock band I can think of. And of course, they're the greatest rock band of all time, and anybody who doesn't think so is a big dumb dummy who doesn't understand Peart's lyrics.
posted by jbickers at 1:05 PM on October 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
My favorite thing about the Official Fan Vote Thingie is that if you click anywhere but the check boxes, you get taken to a very tiny picture of one of the nominees. It's the Heart postage stamp that never was.
posted by Copronymus at 1:07 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 1:07 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
and anybody who doesn't think so is a big dumb dummy who doesn't understand Peart's lyrics.
Wouldn't that be Peart's fault?
Also the guy's kit is ridiculous.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:08 PM on October 4, 2012
Wouldn't that be Peart's fault?
Also the guy's kit is ridiculous.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:08 PM on October 4, 2012
is there some political reason why Rush isn't already in the Hall of Fame?
They are prog rock. Many people think prog rock sucked, and that it dissed regular rock. More here.
posted by caddis at 1:10 PM on October 4, 2012
They are prog rock. Many people think prog rock sucked, and that it dissed regular rock. More here.
posted by caddis at 1:10 PM on October 4, 2012
Sorry, the artificial scarcity is bullshit. It's high school superlatives for music.
There's no good reason to limit the number of honorees. Doing so invites pointless arguments over who is more deserving, when everybody on that list has produced something that has advanced music as a whole.
posted by disconnect at 1:12 PM on October 4, 2012
There's no good reason to limit the number of honorees. Doing so invites pointless arguments over who is more deserving, when everybody on that list has produced something that has advanced music as a whole.
posted by disconnect at 1:12 PM on October 4, 2012
NBC.com has its own "unofficial" poll on its site now -- I am amused to note that the results show that Rush already has more votes than all the others COMBINED.
[Visits site just to see whether the vote count is 2112.]
posted by O Blitiri at 1:15 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
[Visits site just to see whether the vote count is 2112.]
posted by O Blitiri at 1:15 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Randy Newman and Chic. You've got to be shitting me.
I look forward to next year's inclusion of Tiny Tim and Hot Chocolate.
posted by Palindromedary at 1:18 PM on October 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
I look forward to next year's inclusion of Tiny Tim and Hot Chocolate.
posted by Palindromedary at 1:18 PM on October 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
With fans like these [YouTube, dirty words] Rush is a shoe in.
posted by nowhere man at 1:20 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by nowhere man at 1:20 PM on October 4, 2012
Wenner and Dave Marsh have been the taste-makers for the RnRHoF ever since its inception and their tastes are still set in that late 60s critics mindset of hating all prog, art rock, hard rock, metal, and even when an act does fit into their narrow paradigm, it can still get ignored: i.e. the Replacements. There are some cases where a couple acts that defied the rigid tastes of those two got in: Sabbath, Zep.
posted by Ber at 1:21 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by Ber at 1:21 PM on October 4, 2012
If Marsh has that much pull, why aren't the MC5 in?
posted by AJaffe at 1:21 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by AJaffe at 1:21 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
I understand that Rush has a great many fans and they've even done some decent work over the decades but on balance they don't really seem to be that awesome of a band. Somewhat influential, definitely talented, and they've had significant longevity but honestly should you just put in every band that manages to survive for decades and has some very vocal fans?
I'm generally in favor of a more exclusive HoF than the Rock and Roll HoF generally has followed and have some doubts on whether any of the nominated should be inducted. But given the record of previous inductees I suspect Rush will eventually get inducted. Maybe Peart's ridiculous kit will be on display decades from now for future musicians to mock.
posted by vuron at 1:23 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm generally in favor of a more exclusive HoF than the Rock and Roll HoF generally has followed and have some doubts on whether any of the nominated should be inducted. But given the record of previous inductees I suspect Rush will eventually get inducted. Maybe Peart's ridiculous kit will be on display decades from now for future musicians to mock.
posted by vuron at 1:23 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
> There's no good reason to limit the number of honorees.
Here's a list of a lot of acts who are eligible. Can you imagine how dull it'd be if you inducted any fraction them at one time - say, even 5% of those on the list? They'd get, like, 10 seconds each to talk.
The whole thing is bogus - but the limited number of honorees is not a particularly bogus part of this generally bogus operation.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 1:24 PM on October 4, 2012
Here's a list of a lot of acts who are eligible. Can you imagine how dull it'd be if you inducted any fraction them at one time - say, even 5% of those on the list? They'd get, like, 10 seconds each to talk.
The whole thing is bogus - but the limited number of honorees is not a particularly bogus part of this generally bogus operation.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 1:24 PM on October 4, 2012
I think Chic mainly keeps getting nominated on the strength of Nile Rodgers relationships in the industry Palindromedary.
posted by vuron at 1:24 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by vuron at 1:24 PM on October 4, 2012
Honestly, this was my introduction to Rush, and I'll be damned if it wasn't a good one.
posted by phaedon at 1:30 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by phaedon at 1:30 PM on October 4, 2012
I understand that Rush has a great many fans and they've even done some decent work over the decades but on balance they don't really seem to be that awesome of a band.
I personally don't know much about them (I mean, I've heard the song "Tom Sawyer", but that's about it); I'm just amused that every year I can remember, each and every announcement of the new Hall of Fame nominees is met with a great cry of "What about Rush?" and now, finally, that cry may be appeased.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:32 PM on October 4, 2012
I personally don't know much about them (I mean, I've heard the song "Tom Sawyer", but that's about it); I'm just amused that every year I can remember, each and every announcement of the new Hall of Fame nominees is met with a great cry of "What about Rush?" and now, finally, that cry may be appeased.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:32 PM on October 4, 2012
Don't know much about Rush? Here's your chance: the entire Beyond The Lighted Stage documentary [1h46m], which spans their career up through 2009, or thereabouts. Possibly one of the best rock documentaries I've seen, and I'd say that even if I weren't a Rush fan. It's just a great film.
posted by hippybear at 1:50 PM on October 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:50 PM on October 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
The Meters, Albert King, and the rest of 'em can fight for third place, although I may be contractually obligated to vote for Heart*
*Jeeves! What does my pre-nup say under the section titled Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame Nominees?
posted by Doleful Creature at 1:51 PM on October 4, 2012
*Jeeves! What does my pre-nup say under the section titled Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame Nominees?
posted by Doleful Creature at 1:51 PM on October 4, 2012
1. Joan Jett is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
2. Joan Jett does not need the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
3. Seriously.
posted by jammy at 1:53 PM on October 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
2. Joan Jett does not need the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
3. Seriously.
posted by jammy at 1:53 PM on October 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
It is about time that Rush was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. For one thing, they only took really off after a radio station in Cleveland started playing Working Man. (the Cleveland bit starts at 18:40, but that is a fantastic documentary even if you don't like Rush)
posted by Flashman at 1:55 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by Flashman at 1:55 PM on October 4, 2012
As much as I love Public Enemy, maybe we should broaden our 'what classifies as Rock and Roll' horizons a little: Why not induct Hershey's Bars? Or faux-leather coasters? And the failure to recognize that white-out correction tape stuff is a slap in the face to real lovers of rock and roll.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:55 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 1:55 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Also, if on the fluke chance you're unfamiliar with Rush, you can change that! Rush Radio - Only Rush, all day and all night.
posted by spinifex23 at 2:02 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by spinifex23 at 2:02 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
The whole process echoes with the sound of salesmen.
posted by Senator at 2:03 PM on October 4, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by Senator at 2:03 PM on October 4, 2012 [8 favorites]
Any world where Rush might get into a hall-of-fame and not Albert King is a sad and clueless world. And, apparently, it listens to shitty, overwrought dreck.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:04 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 2:04 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
1. Joan Jett is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Wait, The Runaways aren't in the hall? What kind of nonsense is that?
posted by ndfine at 2:08 PM on October 4, 2012
Wait, The Runaways aren't in the hall? What kind of nonsense is that?
posted by ndfine at 2:08 PM on October 4, 2012
"Neil Peart couldn't drum his way out of a paper bag." -- Harold, Freaks and Geeks
(Harold was played by Joe Flaherty, who was in SCTV with Rick Moranis, who went to elementary school with Geddy Lee.)
posted by Sys Rq at 2:11 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
(Harold was played by Joe Flaherty, who was in SCTV with Rick Moranis, who went to elementary school with Geddy Lee.)
posted by Sys Rq at 2:11 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Rush broke a LOT of new ground and was hugely influential in rock music. They've since been overrun by newer, more progressive bands, but in their day they were fairly mind-blowing. It's a crime they aren't in the RNR Hall of Fame already.
posted by LordSludge at 2:15 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by LordSludge at 2:15 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
NBC.com has its own "unofficial" poll on its site now -- I am amused to note that the results show that Rush already has more votes than all the others COMBINED.
Take it from a militant Buffy geek - that just means geeks bombed an internet poll.
posted by williampratt at 2:18 PM on October 4, 2012
Take it from a militant Buffy geek - that just means geeks bombed an internet poll.
posted by williampratt at 2:18 PM on October 4, 2012
I've been an on-and-off fan of Rush since I got a cassette version of the first album for my birthday in 1983, and Signals a few months later for Christmas. I stopped following them after Hold Your Fire, but I've always had an affection for the band and the music. The fact that so many people hate them so passionately only makes me love the music more. (That may be a related reason as to why I hung out in the punk rock scene for so many years. Ostrasization breeds camaraderie, I suppose.)
And no matter what anyone says about Peart's lyrics, I still believe that "Subdivisions" is the best description of suburban anomie ever written.
I have tickets to see them at the Toronto ACC on the 16th. This will be my first time ever seeing them live, and I'm looking forward to it.
posted by spoobnooble II: electric bugaboo at 2:26 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
And no matter what anyone says about Peart's lyrics, I still believe that "Subdivisions" is the best description of suburban anomie ever written.
I have tickets to see them at the Toronto ACC on the 16th. This will be my first time ever seeing them live, and I'm looking forward to it.
posted by spoobnooble II: electric bugaboo at 2:26 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
There are a ton of acts that have been eligible for ages that haven't ever gotten a nomination, many of which were probably more notable for a longer period of time.
Moody Blues 23 years no nominations
Emerson, Lake, Palmer 17 years no nominations
ELO 16 years no nominations
Cat Stevens 21 years 1 nomination
Peter Gabriel 10 years no nominations
There are tons of pretty famous artists that will probably never make it in for a variety of reasons.
posted by vuron at 2:29 PM on October 4, 2012
Moody Blues 23 years no nominations
Emerson, Lake, Palmer 17 years no nominations
ELO 16 years no nominations
Cat Stevens 21 years 1 nomination
Peter Gabriel 10 years no nominations
There are tons of pretty famous artists that will probably never make it in for a variety of reasons.
posted by vuron at 2:29 PM on October 4, 2012
I can't think of many things less rock'n'roll than being in the Hall Of Fame.
Here is the start of the list of things that are more rock'n'roll than being in the Rock'n'Roll Hall'o'Fame, but will never be in the Rock'n'Roll Hall'o'Fame:
Junior Mints
cigarettes
funky shoe laces
Kristin Schaal is a horse
The Rite of Spring
bubble gum
2 a.m.
chipped nail polish
Feel free to add your things that are very very rock'n'roll.
posted by benito.strauss at 2:32 PM on October 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
Here is the start of the list of things that are more rock'n'roll than being in the Rock'n'Roll Hall'o'Fame, but will never be in the Rock'n'Roll Hall'o'Fame:
Junior Mints
cigarettes
funky shoe laces
Kristin Schaal is a horse
The Rite of Spring
bubble gum
2 a.m.
chipped nail polish
Feel free to add your things that are very very rock'n'roll.
posted by benito.strauss at 2:32 PM on October 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
You know what else bugs me? It's not a hall. It's a whole damn building!
posted by srboisvert at 2:42 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by srboisvert at 2:42 PM on October 4, 2012
It's a recognition of sales, people.
in my opinion, which is probably correct
posted by scratch at 2:43 PM on October 4, 2012
in my opinion, which is probably correct
posted by scratch at 2:43 PM on October 4, 2012
I have tickets to see them at the Toronto ACC on the 16th. This will be my first time ever seeing them live, and I'm looking forward to it.
I envy you. First for being able to catch them on this tour (I'm unable to get the time off work to drive the nearly 300 miles to see them on a weeknight when they're closest to me this time around), and for this being your first time seeing them.
If you haven't already familiarized yourself with their latest album Clockwork Angels, I suggest you do so. I gather it's a centerpiece of this tour.
posted by hippybear at 2:46 PM on October 4, 2012
I envy you. First for being able to catch them on this tour (I'm unable to get the time off work to drive the nearly 300 miles to see them on a weeknight when they're closest to me this time around), and for this being your first time seeing them.
If you haven't already familiarized yourself with their latest album Clockwork Angels, I suggest you do so. I gather it's a centerpiece of this tour.
posted by hippybear at 2:46 PM on October 4, 2012
I think the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame lost relevance when James Taylor was inducted. I'm not speaking to the quality of Taylor's music, but he is, to my mind, about as anti-rock as you can get without being Peter Cetera. It's purposefully inoffensive chardonnay-and-ferns light pop music. Rock, it is not.
By inducting him, the Hall basically admitted that it was an anachronism. Here, they are saying, these are some musicians with a solid fan base and who have sold albums reasonably well. And for these qualities that everyone knows about them, we are going to say, "Yes! These are indeed musicians with a solid fan base who have sold albums reasonably well" and add them to the pantheon which grows more nebulous and meaningless every year.
Also, totally voting for Heart.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:46 PM on October 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
By inducting him, the Hall basically admitted that it was an anachronism. Here, they are saying, these are some musicians with a solid fan base and who have sold albums reasonably well. And for these qualities that everyone knows about them, we are going to say, "Yes! These are indeed musicians with a solid fan base who have sold albums reasonably well" and add them to the pantheon which grows more nebulous and meaningless every year.
Also, totally voting for Heart.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:46 PM on October 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
Any world where Rush might get into a hall-of-fame and not Albert King is a sad and clueless world.
Absolutely. Or more precisely the fact that this is even in contention proves that the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame is and has always been completely irrelevant.
Look, if you want to build a real Rock'n'Roll hall of fame, here's what you do: research and find the names and photographs/descriptions of every early blues musician up to about 195-- wait, scratch that. If you wanted to do a real honest-to-god Rock'n'Roll hall of fame the following cannot be overstated:
1. Find every single black person in America who ever held ever sang a note or beat a drum or played an instrument, from the first slave all the way down to the first time Elvis sang the blues. DO NOT REST until you know all of their names, all of their faces. When you do, make life sized bronze statues or Every. Single. One.
2. Put a big-ass sign next to all the statues. Print, in huge fucking glowing letters, letters so big and so bright planes will have to fly around the sign lest the incredible electric output interfere their delicate equipment, and make those letters state:
WITHOUT THESE MUSICIANS THERE WOULD BE NO ROCK'N'ROLL.
After you have done this feel free to start voting for others, to be placed in a small museum behind the statues
posted by Doleful Creature at 2:57 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Absolutely. Or more precisely the fact that this is even in contention proves that the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame is and has always been completely irrelevant.
Look, if you want to build a real Rock'n'Roll hall of fame, here's what you do: research and find the names and photographs/descriptions of every early blues musician up to about 195-- wait, scratch that. If you wanted to do a real honest-to-god Rock'n'Roll hall of fame the following cannot be overstated:
1. Find every single black person in America who ever held ever sang a note or beat a drum or played an instrument, from the first slave all the way down to the first time Elvis sang the blues. DO NOT REST until you know all of their names, all of their faces. When you do, make life sized bronze statues or Every. Single. One.
2. Put a big-ass sign next to all the statues. Print, in huge fucking glowing letters, letters so big and so bright planes will have to fly around the sign lest the incredible electric output interfere their delicate equipment, and make those letters state:
WITHOUT THESE MUSICIANS THERE WOULD BE NO ROCK'N'ROLL.
After you have done this feel free to start voting for others, to be placed in a small museum behind the statues
posted by Doleful Creature at 2:57 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Ditto Albert King. And you know what? Pete Rose, too! Limiting subject matter is just artifice, man, and that ain't what rock is about. If Pete Rose can't get his due in Cleveland then to hell with Rush.
posted by cribcage at 3:18 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by cribcage at 3:18 PM on October 4, 2012
When I saw that Rush was up for it I figured they must have run out of actually worthwhile candidates. So, I thought, why induct anyone at all... just to have someone to induct? Then I looked at the list of honorees and saw some conspicuous absences like The Talking Heads, The Bryds, Gram Parsons and Annie Lennox. Then there’s Little Feat, but I’m not holding out any hope for that one.
posted by Huplescat at 3:27 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Huplescat at 3:27 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Rush broke a LOT of new ground and was hugely influential in rock music.
Rush was/is a decent enough prog rock band and one of the few from the American continent actually in shouting distance of the great British prog bands like Yes or King Crimson or Pink Floyd. Hugely influential? Not so much.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:27 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Rush was/is a decent enough prog rock band and one of the few from the American continent actually in shouting distance of the great British prog bands like Yes or King Crimson or Pink Floyd. Hugely influential? Not so much.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:27 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Rush is nominated? Dude! Nick Andopolis will be SO PUMPED.
posted by pxe2000 at 4:11 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by pxe2000 at 4:11 PM on October 4, 2012
ELO 16 years no nominations
Jeff Lynne's magnificent drooping afro alone should have gotten him inducted years ago, even aside from his work as a songwriter and producer.
posted by scody at 4:13 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Jeff Lynne's magnificent drooping afro alone should have gotten him inducted years ago, even aside from his work as a songwriter and producer.
posted by scody at 4:13 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
1. Joan Jett is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
2. Joan Jett does not need the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
3. Seriously.
posted by jammy at 1:53 PM on October 4 [2 favorites +] [!]
That's "Joan FUCKING Jett" to you.
posted by mudpuppie at 4:23 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
2. Joan Jett does not need the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
3. Seriously.
posted by jammy at 1:53 PM on October 4 [2 favorites +] [!]
That's "Joan FUCKING Jett" to you.
posted by mudpuppie at 4:23 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Yes are rock and roll. this institution is absurd.
posted by philip-random at 4:32 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by philip-random at 4:32 PM on October 4, 2012
Then I looked at the list of honorees and saw some conspicuous absences like The Talking Heads, The Bryds, Gram Parsons and Annie Lennox.
Buh? Talking Heads were inducted in 2002 and The Byrds were inducted in 1991.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:34 PM on October 4, 2012
Buh? Talking Heads were inducted in 2002 and The Byrds were inducted in 1991.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:34 PM on October 4, 2012
If I'm handicapping this race:
Albert King - likely: no AK, no SRV; also ticks the roots/blues/African-American boxes
Chic - not likely: R&RHoF still feeling bilious backlash from ABBA induction
Deep Purple (previously): likely: hugely popular actual hard rock band that doesn't have much competition this year
Donna Summer (previously): see Chic
Heart - possible: p.r. need to have women in the R&RHoF, and there just aren't that many female-led mainstream bands
Joan Jett and the Blackhearts - not likely: "I Love Rock'n'Roll" only goes so far
Kraftwerk (previously) - possible: hard to ignore influence; MoMA shows still fresh in voters' minds; Julian Cope death threats need to be taken seriously
the Marvelettes - possible: in the absence of any other legacy soul nominees
the Meters - possible: influential + NoLa shout-out + African-American
N.W.A. - unlikely: "Fuck Tha Police" has them on the strident side of verismo rap
Paul Butterfield Blues Band - unikely: obscure white blues band; won't get in before Albert King
Procol Harum - unlikely: good band with two FM staples; no constituency
Public Enemy (previously) - likely: influential critical fave, and the Beasties' 2012 induction means that the Hall has to restore balance with Black rap inductee
Randy Newman (previously) - possible: his soundtrack work is popular, and his early work is respectable
Rush - unlikely: fan favorite, but there are a lot of fan faves not in the Hall.
posted by the sobsister at 4:50 PM on October 4, 2012
Albert King - likely: no AK, no SRV; also ticks the roots/blues/African-American boxes
Chic - not likely: R&RHoF still feeling bilious backlash from ABBA induction
Deep Purple (previously): likely: hugely popular actual hard rock band that doesn't have much competition this year
Donna Summer (previously): see Chic
Heart - possible: p.r. need to have women in the R&RHoF, and there just aren't that many female-led mainstream bands
Joan Jett and the Blackhearts - not likely: "I Love Rock'n'Roll" only goes so far
Kraftwerk (previously) - possible: hard to ignore influence; MoMA shows still fresh in voters' minds; Julian Cope death threats need to be taken seriously
the Marvelettes - possible: in the absence of any other legacy soul nominees
the Meters - possible: influential + NoLa shout-out + African-American
N.W.A. - unlikely: "Fuck Tha Police" has them on the strident side of verismo rap
Paul Butterfield Blues Band - unikely: obscure white blues band; won't get in before Albert King
Procol Harum - unlikely: good band with two FM staples; no constituency
Public Enemy (previously) - likely: influential critical fave, and the Beasties' 2012 induction means that the Hall has to restore balance with Black rap inductee
Randy Newman (previously) - possible: his soundtrack work is popular, and his early work is respectable
Rush - unlikely: fan favorite, but there are a lot of fan faves not in the Hall.
posted by the sobsister at 4:50 PM on October 4, 2012
Lol, RNRHOF is as relevant as the hard rock cafes are hard rock.
posted by ersatz at 5:01 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by ersatz at 5:01 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
I am not a fan of Rush. I am not a fan of The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. However, It would at least be entertaining for all of the years nominees to have to battle it out, perhaps in a cage, the winner getting to be inducted. MAKE THIS SO!
posted by evilDoug at 5:10 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by evilDoug at 5:10 PM on October 4, 2012
Given who we're talking about, I think it might be more entertaining to watch them compete in a general-knowledge trivia contest.
posted by cribcage at 5:13 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by cribcage at 5:13 PM on October 4, 2012
Oh, come on, Rush deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. I haven't listened to them since Presto (so, it's been at least 20 years) but they've had a huge influence on music, from Primus to Radiohead.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:17 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by KokuRyu at 5:17 PM on October 4, 2012
"How many time do you hear it? It goes on all day long. Everyone knows everything, and no one's ever wrong. Until later."
I likes me some Rush. I worked at a store called Hemispheres for a guy whose dog was named Geddy. His brother-in-law was co-owner and a huge Sabbath fan. I liked Yes, the later years. Pink Floyd was our common meeting ground, but often, I'd be subjected to Iron Man if my Rush-loving-buddy was out. I'd counter with some U2 or, if I really wanted to get his goat, Enigma. But the store was named Hemispheres, after all, so prog rock ruled the day.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:30 PM on October 4, 2012
I likes me some Rush. I worked at a store called Hemispheres for a guy whose dog was named Geddy. His brother-in-law was co-owner and a huge Sabbath fan. I liked Yes, the later years. Pink Floyd was our common meeting ground, but often, I'd be subjected to Iron Man if my Rush-loving-buddy was out. I'd counter with some U2 or, if I really wanted to get his goat, Enigma. But the store was named Hemispheres, after all, so prog rock ruled the day.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:30 PM on October 4, 2012
I haven't paid attention to Rush (in terms of new output) since "Roll the Bones" (still love that song, even the goofy rap part), but man, when I was into them I was into them. I saw them live 3 times within a year and even went out of my way to go to one of those midnight laser shows at the local planetarium specifically because they were going to be playing Rush music for the night.
This was during the same time period when I was dropping acid pretty regularly. Don't know if there is any correlation.
posted by The Gooch at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
This was during the same time period when I was dropping acid pretty regularly. Don't know if there is any correlation.
posted by The Gooch at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
I always felt like Rush were running to get away from their former selves. Whatever the new Rush album at the time is I usually like a bit, but they never seem to hold up over the decades. Their constant reinvention never struck me so much as a natural progression as much as repeated bids to stay hip in the face of their back catalog seeming trite by the time their albums were a few years old. They've had their moments, but some of their stuff is downright cringeworthy in a Styx way, too.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:56 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:56 PM on October 4, 2012
I hope Rush gets in just for "Subdivisions". But, I don't know, I just can't get into Clockwork Angels. I'll keep trying, but so far it's not working for me.
posted by wintermind at 5:58 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by wintermind at 5:58 PM on October 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
A generation of white boy rockers like me learned to count and play in odd time signatures thanks to that band. Seemed deep to me then. Leaves me cold now, however. But they play their asses off, for sure.
Is Cheap Trick already in?
It's not like there's limited space in Cleveland. The fact that it exists makes me a little sad, even though I think there should be a rock hall of fame. Somewhere. With beer.
posted by spitbull at 5:58 PM on October 4, 2012
Is Cheap Trick already in?
It's not like there's limited space in Cleveland. The fact that it exists makes me a little sad, even though I think there should be a rock hall of fame. Somewhere. With beer.
posted by spitbull at 5:58 PM on October 4, 2012
And seriously, Joan Jett outlasts her era surprisingly well. Yeah, crush.
posted by spitbull at 6:00 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by spitbull at 6:00 PM on October 4, 2012
I'm not caring too much about the R'n'R Hall'o'Fame, but in my personal opinion, Nile Rodgers did transcend rhythm guitar into an art-form in itself, so he gets a little shrine in my tape deck.
posted by ovvl at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by ovvl at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2012
Many people think prog rock sucked
Think? Know.
posted by stp123 at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Think? Know.
posted by stp123 at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Glad to know we're finally taking prog rock seriously.
posted by deathpanels at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by deathpanels at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2012
Mrs A loves "Tom Sawyer" and for the intro to that song alone, I think they qualify.
posted by arcticseal at 7:46 PM on October 4, 2012
posted by arcticseal at 7:46 PM on October 4, 2012
The whole idea of a "rock n' roll hall of fame" is on par with miniature golf courses and Rush is one of the most lovably dorky rock bands ever, so of course they belong in it!
*air guitars "Spirit of Radio" riff*
posted by octobersurprise at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
*air guitars "Spirit of Radio" riff*
posted by octobersurprise at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Of course Cheap Trick isn't in. Tribute bands have to wait until after the band they're aping is inducted, and as we've noted, Big Star isn't in yet.
I hate Rush, but they deserve to be in, based on long-sleeved t-shirt sales alone.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 8:10 PM on October 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
I hate Rush, but they deserve to be in, based on long-sleeved t-shirt sales alone.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 8:10 PM on October 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
they deserve to be in, based on long-sleeved t-shirt sales alone.
ICE BURN.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:20 PM on October 4, 2012
ICE BURN.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:20 PM on October 4, 2012
It's a recognition of sales, people.
OH SALES, PEOPLE!
AAAAAHHHHH SALES, PEOPLE!
woodly woodly woodlly woodly
posted by stevil at 9:01 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
OH SALES, PEOPLE!
AAAAAHHHHH SALES, PEOPLE!
woodly woodly woodlly woodly
posted by stevil at 9:01 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Of course Cheap Trick isn't in. Tribute bands have to wait until after the band they're aping is inducted, and as we've noted, Big Star isn't in yet.
Puh-leaze, Kangaroo is a great song but it doesn’t warrant that.
Public Enemy is way more Rock than a lot of the groups in there.
Joan Jett might bring TOO much rock in, I’m not sure it would be safe.
posted by bongo_x at 10:16 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Puh-leaze, Kangaroo is a great song but it doesn’t warrant that.
Public Enemy is way more Rock than a lot of the groups in there.
Joan Jett might bring TOO much rock in, I’m not sure it would be safe.
posted by bongo_x at 10:16 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
*air guitars "Spirit of Radio" riff*
Since 1990, I listen to this album on January 1 of every new decade.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:42 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Since 1990, I listen to this album on January 1 of every new decade.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:42 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Who can it be knocking
One two
at my door
Eins zwei
Go away
Ich ni
Don't come round here no more
Uno due tres quatro
Kraft at Werk
Next up, the latest from Herren ohne tirolerhuts.
posted by zippy at 12:06 AM on October 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
One two
at my door
Eins zwei
Go away
Ich ni
Don't come round here no more
Uno due tres quatro
Kraft at Werk
Next up, the latest from Herren ohne tirolerhuts.
posted by zippy at 12:06 AM on October 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I just can't get into Clockwork Angels. I'll keep trying, but so far it's not working for me.
Frankly, I'm right there with you. There are maybe 3 songs which I think stand out, but none of them enough that I could even tell you the titles of them.
Snakes And Arrows, on the other hand, may be one of the best albums they've ever recorded. Those in this thread who say they haven't paid attention to Rush for 20 years or so should give that album a listen. Some of their strongest material ever, and the albums works great both as a whole and as individual tracks.
posted by hippybear at 1:36 AM on October 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Frankly, I'm right there with you. There are maybe 3 songs which I think stand out, but none of them enough that I could even tell you the titles of them.
Snakes And Arrows, on the other hand, may be one of the best albums they've ever recorded. Those in this thread who say they haven't paid attention to Rush for 20 years or so should give that album a listen. Some of their strongest material ever, and the albums works great both as a whole and as individual tracks.
posted by hippybear at 1:36 AM on October 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
This Is Just To Say
I love rock
and roll
and that
you should probably
put another dime
in the jukebox, baby
I love rock n' roll
So come
and take your time
and dance with me
posted by knile at 5:27 AM on October 5, 2012
I love rock
and roll
and that
you should probably
put another dime
in the jukebox, baby
I love rock n' roll
So come
and take your time
and dance with me
posted by knile at 5:27 AM on October 5, 2012
People actually care about who gets inducted to the Hall of Fame?
posted by crazy_yeti at 5:49 AM on October 5, 2012
posted by crazy_yeti at 5:49 AM on October 5, 2012
Count me in with the "Clockwork Angels is really disappointing" crowd. Everything else with the exceptions of the really early stuff and Vapor Trails has been pretty good by me, but man, Clockwork Angels is just a mess.
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:07 AM on October 5, 2012
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:07 AM on October 5, 2012
Snakes And Arrows, on the other hand, may be one of the best albums they've ever recorded.
It sounds fucking horrible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you about the material—I can't, because I haven't heard all of it. I couldn't listen to the whole album. It's entirely possible that if you give it a chance it contains some brilliant compositions and lyrics and I'd be blown away. But the production and mastering is offensively bad.
I fully admit that I might be in a minority for caring about that. To take a different example, while I love discovering "bootlegged" (not really) live recordings from my favorite artists, usually I only pay attention if they are soundboards or radio broadcasts. I might really love a band but I can't attend all of their shows and I'm at peace with that, and being at peace with that means that I'm okay with missing out on what some guy in the twelfth row recorded with his pocket microphone.
Snakes & Arrows may indeed contain some strong writing. I tried listening to it and I'm okay with not finishing the album. It'd be like forcing myself to choke down some disgusting concoction by a drunken culinary-school dropout just so I could learn what some brilliant farmer's free-range chicken tasted like. No thanks.
posted by cribcage at 8:32 AM on October 5, 2012
It sounds fucking horrible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you about the material—I can't, because I haven't heard all of it. I couldn't listen to the whole album. It's entirely possible that if you give it a chance it contains some brilliant compositions and lyrics and I'd be blown away. But the production and mastering is offensively bad.
I fully admit that I might be in a minority for caring about that. To take a different example, while I love discovering "bootlegged" (not really) live recordings from my favorite artists, usually I only pay attention if they are soundboards or radio broadcasts. I might really love a band but I can't attend all of their shows and I'm at peace with that, and being at peace with that means that I'm okay with missing out on what some guy in the twelfth row recorded with his pocket microphone.
Snakes & Arrows may indeed contain some strong writing. I tried listening to it and I'm okay with not finishing the album. It'd be like forcing myself to choke down some disgusting concoction by a drunken culinary-school dropout just so I could learn what some brilliant farmer's free-range chicken tasted like. No thanks.
posted by cribcage at 8:32 AM on October 5, 2012
cribcage: are you sure you're not talking about Vapor Trails? That has all kinds of production problems. But Snakes And Arrows is incredibly cleanly recorded, with a lot of care taken in the studio to prevent the problems they had with Vapor Trails. The 5.1 mix is even better than the stereo mix.
posted by hippybear at 10:39 AM on October 5, 2012
posted by hippybear at 10:39 AM on October 5, 2012
Indeed, the CD Vapor Trails is the sonic atrocity. The two subsequent CDs were not nearly as brickwalled and distorted.
posted by Ber at 11:32 AM on October 5, 2012
posted by Ber at 11:32 AM on October 5, 2012
So my sons, 16 and 19, are big Rush fans (one is particularly devoted). Me, I'm into Mozart and Stravinsky. Nearest concert on this Rush tour is 300 km away on a Sunday night and we've all got to be at school/work the next morning. Kids want to go, but older son is a pretty new driver and the highway, at night, when he has to work the next morning doesn't seem like a good idea. I offer to drive them up. But, Mum, they ask, what will you do for five hours while we're at the concert? I manage to get the seat next to theirs and we all go, and get home about 03:00. They assure me they owe me, but big.
It was cool. I mostly enjoyed my kids' reaction as much as the music, but it was a great concert. Spoobnooble, I think you'll enjoy them on the 16th.
posted by angiep at 1:29 PM on October 5, 2012
It was cool. I mostly enjoyed my kids' reaction as much as the music, but it was a great concert. Spoobnooble, I think you'll enjoy them on the 16th.
posted by angiep at 1:29 PM on October 5, 2012
I saw Rush a pile back at what many seem to think was their peak -- Hemispheres, Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures. Obviously, I was into them.
But I'd be lying if I said I LOVED them. I didn't. Mostly, it was all just timing. The bands I really cared about (Yes-Genesis-Jethro Tull) were either changing their spots, or just losing their edge. So Rush were kind of the substitute, adequate soundtrack and visuals for the marijuana I was smoking.
This was during the same time period when I was dropping acid pretty regularly. Don't know if there is any correlation.
This is so not me. In fact, acid is what pretty much killed prog rock for me. Up until 1980/81, I was strictly a dope smoker. But once the lysergic got into me, I just couldn't invest myself in prog any more. All the long songs and crazy solos and wicked lights and absurdly dense arrangements -- they just weren't cutting it. Whereas something like the Clash was -- particularly as they got deeper and deeper into dub. And Bauhaus, and New Order, and the early Simple Minds, Echo + the Bunnymen, U2 even. The common denominator wasn't any particular sound or intent. I think it was just that it was all fresh, completely concerned with what was happening right now, right here. Whereas prog (the best of it) was in retrograde, past its sell-by, old.
Which isn't to say that I don't think Rush should be celebrated. Because they should be. They're unique. They did it their way. Sold a pile records without ever really compromising, and no doubt changed a whole pile of lives for the better. If the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame won't have them, then fuck it, start something else up. Maybe get Roger Dean to design the building.
posted by philip-random at 11:10 PM on October 5, 2012
But I'd be lying if I said I LOVED them. I didn't. Mostly, it was all just timing. The bands I really cared about (Yes-Genesis-Jethro Tull) were either changing their spots, or just losing their edge. So Rush were kind of the substitute, adequate soundtrack and visuals for the marijuana I was smoking.
This was during the same time period when I was dropping acid pretty regularly. Don't know if there is any correlation.
This is so not me. In fact, acid is what pretty much killed prog rock for me. Up until 1980/81, I was strictly a dope smoker. But once the lysergic got into me, I just couldn't invest myself in prog any more. All the long songs and crazy solos and wicked lights and absurdly dense arrangements -- they just weren't cutting it. Whereas something like the Clash was -- particularly as they got deeper and deeper into dub. And Bauhaus, and New Order, and the early Simple Minds, Echo + the Bunnymen, U2 even. The common denominator wasn't any particular sound or intent. I think it was just that it was all fresh, completely concerned with what was happening right now, right here. Whereas prog (the best of it) was in retrograde, past its sell-by, old.
Which isn't to say that I don't think Rush should be celebrated. Because they should be. They're unique. They did it their way. Sold a pile records without ever really compromising, and no doubt changed a whole pile of lives for the better. If the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame won't have them, then fuck it, start something else up. Maybe get Roger Dean to design the building.
posted by philip-random at 11:10 PM on October 5, 2012
« Older De Palm's incineration | Alan Dean Who? Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Mister_A at 12:42 PM on October 4, 2012 [1 favorite]