I'm a Dungeon Master! I deserve this promotion!
October 16, 2012 9:32 AM Subscribe
Can playing Dungeons & Dragons make you a more confident and successful person? The PBS Idea Channel posits that playing pen-and-paper role-playing games helps to develop valuable life skills such as problem solving, people management, and abstract thinking.
I wonder if anyone with a working knowledge of what D&D involves could actually deny this premise. It's one of those "can comic books advance literacy?" or "could video games teach problem solving?" questions. If you have no idea of what's going on then, yes, there is a question to be answered. Otherwise, the answer is inherent in the activity itself.
Also, my new 3.5 DM screen arrived in the mail, literally, fifteen minutes ago.
posted by griphus at 9:41 AM on October 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
Also, my new 3.5 DM screen arrived in the mail, literally, fifteen minutes ago.
posted by griphus at 9:41 AM on October 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
playing pen-and-paper role-playing games helps to develop valuable life skills such as problem solving, people management, and abstract thinking.
Unless you play Chaotic Neutral, in which case fuck you.
posted by R. Schlock at 9:41 AM on October 16, 2012 [29 favorites]
Unless you play Chaotic Neutral, in which case fuck you.
posted by R. Schlock at 9:41 AM on October 16, 2012 [29 favorites]
My people management skill include a flaming sword and weighted 20 sided die.
posted by doctor_negative at 9:42 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by doctor_negative at 9:42 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
From the youtube comments,
"I'm a teacher, and I've done a D&D-like role-laying game with kids after school for years.posted by Blasdelb at 9:44 AM on October 16, 2012 [11 favorites]
A parent once stopped me at a store and said, "Did you know your game taught my son how to read?"
So for that kid, it certainly made him a more successful person!"
Chelly Wood
"While I was applying for a promotion, one of the questions on the application was "have you ever organized and run a meeting of at least 4 people?" At first I thought I would have to answer no, but then I thought "wait a second, I'm a DM. I do that every week!" I got the promotion."
petery999
Any dice or card driven game takes "courage" because you are playing against random results. It's gambling basically, though not pure gambling, more like poker, where you weigh the odds of the cards and other players. Nothing new there, people have been playing random-based games for a long time. Chess, that is pure skill. Maybe there are diceless RPGs, never played one. Dice to me always seemed a necessary evil since it resolved the DM from having to be in total control of the narrative which is nearly impossible.
posted by stbalbach at 9:46 AM on October 16, 2012
posted by stbalbach at 9:46 AM on October 16, 2012
Roleplay scenarios are one of the most useful activities for language teaching. And GMing in Mandarin taught me a lot.
posted by jiawen at 9:48 AM on October 16, 2012
posted by jiawen at 9:48 AM on October 16, 2012
All those clips, and he didn't even use the opening to E.T. or anything from this Dexter's Lab episode. Thought for sure at least one of those would show up.
posted by radwolf76 at 9:50 AM on October 16, 2012
posted by radwolf76 at 9:50 AM on October 16, 2012
I'm actually setting up a Call of Cthulhu campaign right now. Confidence and success are the last things I want to inspire in my player-characters.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:50 AM on October 16, 2012 [12 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:50 AM on October 16, 2012 [12 favorites]
I always felt like the dice rules in White Wolf games were there just to keep people from immediately writing off the game. Everyone I know who is really into WW ends up LARPing instead of playing tabletop. Everyone I know who enjoys WW but not enough to LARP spends most of their RP time playing other systems.
posted by griphus at 9:50 AM on October 16, 2012
posted by griphus at 9:50 AM on October 16, 2012
Blasdelb - That YouTube comment about the promotion is actually what inspired the title of this post.
posted by asnider at 9:51 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by asnider at 9:51 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Maybe it was just the way my friends and I used to play 2E but I think I learned budgeting more than anything else. We took those equipment-cost tables REALLY seriously (along with arguments about what the hell was the difference between a Medium War Horse and a Heavy War Horse).
posted by theodolite at 9:51 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by theodolite at 9:51 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Can playing Call of Cthulhu make you a more neurotic and damaged person? The PBS Idea Channel posits that playing Lovecraftian pen-and-paper role-playing games helps to develop valuable life skills such as cowering in fear, gibbering maniacally, and slowly rocking back and forth, back and forth, back and forth with your arms wrapped tightly around your legs.
posted by kyrademon at 9:53 AM on October 16, 2012 [18 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 9:53 AM on October 16, 2012 [18 favorites]
I don't know if it was D&D that made me the confident and successful person I am today, or if it was the Satan-worshipping cult that it ineluctably drew me into. DM'ing for a group of baby-eating capriform demons every second Friday teaches assertiveness and management skills.
posted by Kandarp Von Bontee at 9:56 AM on October 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by Kandarp Von Bontee at 9:56 AM on October 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
Depends on what kind of DM you have. I guess if they try to break you and fail, then you come out stronger. But you might never trust anyone in management again. "Sure, this assignment sounds benign, but I wonder if it's like the campaign in '02, where the townfolk all seemed nice enough, but they were all plotting against us from the moment we walked in their town. I'm sure this stakeholder meeting could be just like that."
posted by filthy light thief at 9:56 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 9:56 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
My own experience playing pretty hard core between say 12 and 16 (1982 t0 1986) is that D&D could help develop those skills for careers in which you don't have to collaborate or deal with other people. Maybe it was just my friends, but the sheer inability to understand collaboration, cooperation and compromise, critical skills for not having a mental breakdown in nearly any career, are not the strong points of D&D players. Man..the drama...
posted by spicynuts at 9:56 AM on October 16, 2012
posted by spicynuts at 9:56 AM on October 16, 2012
Painfully, the "Satanic Panic" about D&D still exists. Even in this day and age.
Even as a kid playing the game, I understood how it expanded my reading skills, my writing (both in style and stamina) and got me to constantly reinforce my basic math skills. Now that I'm a teacher, I'm even more impressed with just how good this game is for people... and that's just the measurable academic stuff, to say nothing of the building of interpersonal skills.
Had I a regular classroom rather than working as a sub as I do, the first thing I'd do would be to establish a once-a-week game day in my classroom after school. Maybe more than once a week.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:57 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Even as a kid playing the game, I understood how it expanded my reading skills, my writing (both in style and stamina) and got me to constantly reinforce my basic math skills. Now that I'm a teacher, I'm even more impressed with just how good this game is for people... and that's just the measurable academic stuff, to say nothing of the building of interpersonal skills.
Had I a regular classroom rather than working as a sub as I do, the first thing I'd do would be to establish a once-a-week game day in my classroom after school. Maybe more than once a week.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:57 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Clearly these people need to study me. I am the walking, talking counterexample to their hypothesis.
posted by laconic skeuomorph at 9:57 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by laconic skeuomorph at 9:57 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it's all fun and games now, but wait until you go and finally ask for that promotion, only to watch your boss break out a mad d20 and ask you what your initiative score is.
posted by Blue_Villain at 9:58 AM on October 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by Blue_Villain at 9:58 AM on October 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
But you might never trust anyone in management again.
Being and having been raised by immigrants from the Soviet Union, this was considered the most important life skill of all.
posted by griphus at 10:04 AM on October 16, 2012 [10 favorites]
Being and having been raised by immigrants from the Soviet Union, this was considered the most important life skill of all.
posted by griphus at 10:04 AM on October 16, 2012 [10 favorites]
Maybe there are diceless RPGs, never played one.
Yes, there are quite a few. Amber is fairly popular, as is Nobilis, I think.
posted by adamdschneider at 10:04 AM on October 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
Yes, there are quite a few. Amber is fairly popular, as is Nobilis, I think.
posted by adamdschneider at 10:04 AM on October 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
I wonder if anyone with a working knowledge of what D&D involves could actually deny this premise.
Yeah, it seems the RPG equivalent of headlines declaring, "comic books aren't just for kids anymore."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:10 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it seems the RPG equivalent of headlines declaring, "comic books aren't just for kids anymore."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:10 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
The PBS Idea Channel posits that playing Lovecraftian pen-and-paper role-playing games helps to develop valuable life skills such as cowering in fear, gibbering maniacally, and slowly rocking back and forth, back and forth, back and forth with your arms wrapped tightly around your legs.
I'm working more towards 'hearing strange and wonderful music in the distance,' 'seeing vague shapes out of the corner of one's eye,' 'hearing words which don't match up with the movements of a speaker's mouth,' and 'being devoured.'
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:11 AM on October 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
I'm working more towards 'hearing strange and wonderful music in the distance,' 'seeing vague shapes out of the corner of one's eye,' 'hearing words which don't match up with the movements of a speaker's mouth,' and 'being devoured.'
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:11 AM on October 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
I can see how D&D would prepare one for the world of federal contracting, in which you learn how to follow a technically convoluted process in order to pursue an imaginary goal.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:13 AM on October 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:13 AM on October 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
One by-product would be an enhanced ability to think quickly in a dangerous situation.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:14 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:14 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Everyone I know who is really into WW ends up LARPing instead of playing tabletop.
WW LARPing prepares you for flame-wars, backstabbing and metagaming. Also known as office politics.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:19 AM on October 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
WW LARPing prepares you for flame-wars, backstabbing and metagaming. Also known as office politics.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:19 AM on October 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
I can't speak for the benefits of playing, but running 4-hour tabletop games at (gaming) conventions is enough like making short presentations at (business) events that the skills carry over. For that matter, the 40-person LARP I ran was certainly an exercise in money management, event hosting, database management, web design, writing...
posted by Karmakaze at 10:20 AM on October 16, 2012
posted by Karmakaze at 10:20 AM on October 16, 2012
"One by-product would be an enhanced ability to think quickly in a dangerous situation."
Much as I love Phil & Dixie, the actual by-product is the ability to spend a full half-hour boring the hell out of everyone else by obsessively debating the merits of two or three possible options with yourself when everyone already knows you're going to do the exact same thing you ALWAYS DO ANYWAY.
A ROUND IS SIX SECONDS LONG PEOPLE PICK YOUR DAMN ACTION
posted by kyrademon at 10:20 AM on October 16, 2012 [10 favorites]
Much as I love Phil & Dixie, the actual by-product is the ability to spend a full half-hour boring the hell out of everyone else by obsessively debating the merits of two or three possible options with yourself when everyone already knows you're going to do the exact same thing you ALWAYS DO ANYWAY.
A ROUND IS SIX SECONDS LONG PEOPLE PICK YOUR DAMN ACTION
posted by kyrademon at 10:20 AM on October 16, 2012 [10 favorites]
I'm working more towards 'hearing strange and wonderful music in the distance,' 'seeing vague shapes out of the corner of one's eye,' 'hearing words which don't match up with the movements of a speaker's mouth,' and 'being devoured.'
So... Government job then? 'Cause that's definitely what mine's like.
posted by mrgoat at 10:23 AM on October 16, 2012
So... Government job then? 'Cause that's definitely what mine's like.
posted by mrgoat at 10:23 AM on October 16, 2012
"I attempt to disbelieve my boss's bullshit."
"Make your saving throw."
"Okay....17. Did that do it?"
"Yep. Your boss has not convinced you in the slightest."
"Great! Then I--"
"But you still have to do what he says."
"Fuck."
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 10:23 AM on October 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
"Make your saving throw."
"Okay....17. Did that do it?"
"Yep. Your boss has not convinced you in the slightest."
"Great! Then I--"
"But you still have to do what he says."
"Fuck."
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 10:23 AM on October 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
I'm not sure what this is on about. D&D hasn't bled into my identity elsewhere at all.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:24 AM on October 16, 2012 [13 favorites]
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:24 AM on October 16, 2012 [13 favorites]
Maybe there are diceless RPGs, never played one.
The best diceless mechanic I've ever seen is in Dread. It's a Jenga tower. Knock it over, and your character dies.
Dread is rarely used as a system for campaign games.
posted by howfar at 10:34 AM on October 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
The best diceless mechanic I've ever seen is in Dread. It's a Jenga tower. Knock it over, and your character dies.
Dread is rarely used as a system for campaign games.
posted by howfar at 10:34 AM on October 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
adamdschneider: "Yes, there are quite a few. Amber is fairly popular, as is Nobilis, I think."
And Polaris, and (therefore) Thou Art But A Warrior, and (effectively, almost) Fiasco, and (I think) Happy Birthday, Robot!, and Lost Days of Memories and Madness (if my recollection is right), and the just-mentioned Dread, and others.
posted by jiawen at 10:41 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
And Polaris, and (therefore) Thou Art But A Warrior, and (effectively, almost) Fiasco, and (I think) Happy Birthday, Robot!, and Lost Days of Memories and Madness (if my recollection is right), and the just-mentioned Dread, and others.
posted by jiawen at 10:41 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
One way this can go in reverse:
I have a D20 that I keep in my desk at work. On crunch periods, I put up a small flipsheet with an "interruption difficulty check" written across the top with numbers going from 1 to 20. If the Interruption DC sheet is in effect, and if you need to come over and interrupt what I'm doing, then roll the D20 and if your number beats the DC then I will give you five minutes of my time. If your roll fails, then send me an email, and I will respond to you when it suits my schedule. If you choose not to roll the D20 and just send me an email then I might respond to you more promptly.
posted by bl1nk at 10:52 AM on October 16, 2012 [15 favorites]
I have a D20 that I keep in my desk at work. On crunch periods, I put up a small flipsheet with an "interruption difficulty check" written across the top with numbers going from 1 to 20. If the Interruption DC sheet is in effect, and if you need to come over and interrupt what I'm doing, then roll the D20 and if your number beats the DC then I will give you five minutes of my time. If your roll fails, then send me an email, and I will respond to you when it suits my schedule. If you choose not to roll the D20 and just send me an email then I might respond to you more promptly.
posted by bl1nk at 10:52 AM on October 16, 2012 [15 favorites]
Boozehammer of Galen: "I'm immune to cold, fire, and edged weapons."
Dep. Williams: "Are you immune to mace?" *spray* "County, prep a cell for one minor Deity."
posted by entropicamericana at 10:56 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Dep. Williams: "Are you immune to mace?" *spray* "County, prep a cell for one minor Deity."
posted by entropicamericana at 10:56 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Large-game management skills are pretty much like any other management skills, she said, having run a giant PBEM for a long damned time.
Also, Amber DRPG is the grandaddy of diceless games, speaking of backstabbing and politics.
posted by immlass at 10:59 AM on October 16, 2012
Also, Amber DRPG is the grandaddy of diceless games, speaking of backstabbing and politics.
posted by immlass at 10:59 AM on October 16, 2012
I noticed my husband used the same skills litigating as he did in RPGs (tabletop or computer): mastering a complex set of pretty arbitrary rules that bound the available reality, and then maneuvering within those rules to achieve the best outcome for your particular character (client) in the particular story (case).
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:17 AM on October 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:17 AM on October 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
I've even investigated groups on Meetup, but the thought of playing with a bunch of strangers when I'm rusty as all-hell (I haven't played a serious campaign since I was a teenager, though I have played a few nights here and there) is an intimidating and not very enticing one.
If you're playing with Grown Adults, most of them will have exactly one goal in mind: have fun playing D&D. I've tabletop gamed plenty, and I don't think I have even once came across a group of players who were upset that someone didn't know the rules well enough. The fact that you might have to ask "what's flat-footed AC mean?" or "hang on, I'm not sure which skill to roll" is insignificant if you show up ready, willing and able to get into the spirit of things.
posted by griphus at 11:26 AM on October 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
If you're playing with Grown Adults, most of them will have exactly one goal in mind: have fun playing D&D. I've tabletop gamed plenty, and I don't think I have even once came across a group of players who were upset that someone didn't know the rules well enough. The fact that you might have to ask "what's flat-footed AC mean?" or "hang on, I'm not sure which skill to roll" is insignificant if you show up ready, willing and able to get into the spirit of things.
posted by griphus at 11:26 AM on October 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
I learned which dragons not to pet, and which demons are the sexiest, from D&D.
posted by Mister_A at 11:29 AM on October 16, 2012
posted by Mister_A at 11:29 AM on October 16, 2012
My son told me he found the rules Of D&D helped him learn to do taxes quickly. This was a useful job skill.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:31 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:31 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Can playing Dungeons & Dragons make you a more confident and successful person?
Compared to what? If the alternative activity is sitting quietly in the dark then, yes, it probably has positive effects. But if the alternative is engaging in other social recreation activities then there's probably little or no advantage.
posted by rocket88 at 11:31 AM on October 16, 2012
Compared to what? If the alternative activity is sitting quietly in the dark then, yes, it probably has positive effects. But if the alternative is engaging in other social recreation activities then there's probably little or no advantage.
posted by rocket88 at 11:31 AM on October 16, 2012
Compared to what? If the alternative activity is sitting quietly in the dark then, yes, it probably has positive effects. But if the alternative is engaging in other social recreation activities then there's probably little or no advantage.
Compared to not playing D&D. The main thrust of the video is that tabletop RPGs require the use and development of certain skills that you wouldn't gain from playing soccer, for example. Both are forms of social recreation, and both can potentially provide valuable skills, but the skills that each cultivates are not necessarily the same.
For example, with regard to fairly high-level abstract thinking, I think RPGs provide (and, indeed, require) this skill far more than any other forms of social recreation. You're creating an entire world in your imagination (perhaps more so as the GM/DM than as someone playing a single character). This requires abstract thinking and improvisation in ways that playing soccer or going to the pub with your friends don't.
That isn't to say that these skills can't be developed elsewhere, just that playing tabletop RPGs is a good way to it.
posted by asnider at 11:39 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Compared to not playing D&D. The main thrust of the video is that tabletop RPGs require the use and development of certain skills that you wouldn't gain from playing soccer, for example. Both are forms of social recreation, and both can potentially provide valuable skills, but the skills that each cultivates are not necessarily the same.
For example, with regard to fairly high-level abstract thinking, I think RPGs provide (and, indeed, require) this skill far more than any other forms of social recreation. You're creating an entire world in your imagination (perhaps more so as the GM/DM than as someone playing a single character). This requires abstract thinking and improvisation in ways that playing soccer or going to the pub with your friends don't.
That isn't to say that these skills can't be developed elsewhere, just that playing tabletop RPGs is a good way to it.
posted by asnider at 11:39 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Given that tabletop RPGs evolved from wargames, which were themselves used to train military officers, I'm not that surprised people have picked up useful skills from them.
(Citation, also a plug for a friend's book on the early history of D&D.)
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:43 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
(Citation, also a plug for a friend's book on the early history of D&D.)
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:43 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I don't think I have even once came across a group of players who were upset that someone didn't know the rules well enoughNot even in jest? I was getting ready to mock you for not upgrading from 3.5 to Pathfinder, but now I'd just feel guilty afterwards...
(coincidentally, my Pathfinder Beginner Box arrives today, ordered primarily because the tome-ness of the Core Rulebook is discouraging my nieces from upgrading from HeroQuest)
posted by roystgnr at 11:52 AM on October 16, 2012
To be fair, Hero Quest (if you are talking about the Milton Bradley/Games Workshop board game) is amazing and fun and simple. Pathfinder is simple compared to 3.5, but still kind of complicated.
Also, Pathfinder = D&D these days, IMHO, whatever branding powers Hasbro possesses be damned.
posted by absalom at 12:03 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Also, Pathfinder = D&D these days, IMHO, whatever branding powers Hasbro possesses be damned.
posted by absalom at 12:03 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Well, I mean genuinely upset. I think the only time not knowing the rules was a serious impediment to the game was when we played with a dude who spent all of his other free time on WoW and steadfastly refused to acknowledge that D&D has different mechanics. Arguing with the DM over rule interpretation is one thing, arguing with black-and-white letters on a page was ridiculous. Much to everyone's relief, he quit and his character became an NPC that met a gory demise at the hands of the party.
posted by griphus at 12:13 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by griphus at 12:13 PM on October 16, 2012
Also I think everyone would love to switch to Pathfinder -- the seams are really starting to show after a decade of 3.5 -- but that would require a critical mass of players absorbing the ruleset (not everyone, but at least 2-3 people) and no one has the time.
posted by griphus at 12:14 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by griphus at 12:14 PM on October 16, 2012
I've been itching to play D&D (or any pen & paper RPG, really) so so badly lately, but none of my friends give a fuck. This makes me sadder than it probably should.
Your local game store might host D&D Encounters, a casual drop-in event designed mostly to introduce new players to the game. Although most of the people I've played with at various locations were veterans; following on to griphus' comment, the introductory format -- you don't even need to bring a pencil, as long as someone will lend you a set of dice -- leads people (in my experience) to being cool with newbies, though party composition can change from week to week, requiring some additional suspension of disbelief.
posted by Gelatin at 12:30 PM on October 16, 2012
Your local game store might host D&D Encounters, a casual drop-in event designed mostly to introduce new players to the game. Although most of the people I've played with at various locations were veterans; following on to griphus' comment, the introductory format -- you don't even need to bring a pencil, as long as someone will lend you a set of dice -- leads people (in my experience) to being cool with newbies, though party composition can change from week to week, requiring some additional suspension of disbelief.
posted by Gelatin at 12:30 PM on October 16, 2012
Speaking as someone with almost 20 years of tabletop RPG experience:
*Some* people, especially awkward tween and teenagers, can and do benefit from the social element of D&D, helping them to break through anxieties and shyness to become better able to interact with the world at large. These seem to be the people the video envisions.
*Other* people remain awkward in mainstream circles, but use the shared knowledge and common experiences of tabletop gaming as the cachet necessary to belong to the gaming subculture that exists across the net and at cons. As gaming has become less marginal, these people have become harder to distinguish from the first group, but they *are* distinct.
*Still others* rely on strict adherence to the rules and conventions of the game as a crutch, and never adapt to the nebulous pseudo-rules of normal social interaction. These are the players who "give the game a bad name," and although they are more the exception than the rule, they absolutely do exist. A big part of why Knights of the Dinner Table is so funny is because it is inspired by reality, and anyone who has gamed for a while has met some of those people.
In my (admittedly biased) view, everyone with a sense of creativity and adventure can enjoy tabletop gaming. That said, D&D (as it currently exists) may not be ideal, given the complexity of its rules. A better introduction is Lady Blackbird, which is very lightweight (in the best sense of the word) and is designed to be playable by a relative novice with zero preparation.
posted by belarius at 1:25 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
*Some* people, especially awkward tween and teenagers, can and do benefit from the social element of D&D, helping them to break through anxieties and shyness to become better able to interact with the world at large. These seem to be the people the video envisions.
*Other* people remain awkward in mainstream circles, but use the shared knowledge and common experiences of tabletop gaming as the cachet necessary to belong to the gaming subculture that exists across the net and at cons. As gaming has become less marginal, these people have become harder to distinguish from the first group, but they *are* distinct.
*Still others* rely on strict adherence to the rules and conventions of the game as a crutch, and never adapt to the nebulous pseudo-rules of normal social interaction. These are the players who "give the game a bad name," and although they are more the exception than the rule, they absolutely do exist. A big part of why Knights of the Dinner Table is so funny is because it is inspired by reality, and anyone who has gamed for a while has met some of those people.
In my (admittedly biased) view, everyone with a sense of creativity and adventure can enjoy tabletop gaming. That said, D&D (as it currently exists) may not be ideal, given the complexity of its rules. A better introduction is Lady Blackbird, which is very lightweight (in the best sense of the word) and is designed to be playable by a relative novice with zero preparation.
posted by belarius at 1:25 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Chiming in on what belarius is saying, I've had some success with using D&D (not "role playing" generically, either) as a tool for working with troubled teens, though it didn't work well for everyone.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 1:27 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 1:27 PM on October 16, 2012
It's been a while since I've seen a Chick tract, bukvich.
I'm totally going to find a way to work a "dungeon of bondage" into my current Shadowrun campaign. It shouldn't be difficult. Maybe my players are going to be hired to blackmail a certain politician by getting compromising photos of him at his favourite after-hours hangout.
posted by asnider at 1:29 PM on October 16, 2012
I'm totally going to find a way to work a "dungeon of bondage" into my current Shadowrun campaign. It shouldn't be difficult. Maybe my players are going to be hired to blackmail a certain politician by getting compromising photos of him at his favourite after-hours hangout.
posted by asnider at 1:29 PM on October 16, 2012
Also I think everyone would love to switch to Pathfinder -- the seams are really starting to show after a decade of 3.5 -- but that would require a critical mass of players absorbing the ruleset (not everyone, but at least 2-3 people) and no one has the time.
Aww, it's not that hard. Here's a brief rundown of the changes from 3.5 to Pathfinder, which the DM should get comfortable with and everyone else can figure out pretty quickly.. well, in less time than it takes to figure out how a grapple resolves in 3.5. There's also a free conversion guide on the Paizo website for updating characters from 3.5. The biggest changes are for spellcasters, who will be well served by actually reading the descriptions of their spells, as some core elements have changed.
Initially it looks like all the PCs get way more powerful compared to their 3.5 equivalents, until you find that the opposition is just as enhanced and even more capable of whipping asses all day long. The actual effect is that everything becomes a lot more dynamic; trying new things is more encouraged, and the battlefields become much more fluid as people actually do more than just stand in front of monsters and slap them over and over again. Basically, Pathfinder is the tits, jump on in.
posted by FatherDagon at 1:33 PM on October 16, 2012
Aww, it's not that hard. Here's a brief rundown of the changes from 3.5 to Pathfinder, which the DM should get comfortable with and everyone else can figure out pretty quickly.. well, in less time than it takes to figure out how a grapple resolves in 3.5. There's also a free conversion guide on the Paizo website for updating characters from 3.5. The biggest changes are for spellcasters, who will be well served by actually reading the descriptions of their spells, as some core elements have changed.
Initially it looks like all the PCs get way more powerful compared to their 3.5 equivalents, until you find that the opposition is just as enhanced and even more capable of whipping asses all day long. The actual effect is that everything becomes a lot more dynamic; trying new things is more encouraged, and the battlefields become much more fluid as people actually do more than just stand in front of monsters and slap them over and over again. Basically, Pathfinder is the tits, jump on in.
posted by FatherDagon at 1:33 PM on October 16, 2012
Having played a lot of both, Pathfinder > 3.5, and the adjustment tends to be a lot of, "Wait, that rule kind of makes *sense* now?" moments.
posted by kyrademon at 1:40 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by kyrademon at 1:40 PM on October 16, 2012
I will perhaps get a copy of the Pathfinder tome as a Christmas gift for my friend who is most likely to read a sourcebook.
posted by griphus at 1:48 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by griphus at 1:48 PM on October 16, 2012
It's true: Girlfriends can be really distracting.
posted by LordSludge at 2:28 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by LordSludge at 2:28 PM on October 16, 2012
item: "but the thought of playing with a bunch of strangers when I'm rusty as all-hell (I haven't played a serious campaign since I was a teenager, though I have played a few nights here and there) is an intimidating and not very enticing one. Gah."
There are a lot of ways to scratch that itch without entering into a campaign: try online play, play in convention games, go to a game store's demo games, etc. Let me know if you'd like more pointers.
posted by jiawen at 2:35 PM on October 16, 2012
There are a lot of ways to scratch that itch without entering into a campaign: try online play, play in convention games, go to a game store's demo games, etc. Let me know if you'd like more pointers.
posted by jiawen at 2:35 PM on October 16, 2012
Countless games of Paranoia have led to my current status as a happy, healthy worker for Friend Computer.
I have no concerns about life, no questions about The Outdoors, and am perfectly provided for by Friend Computer.
My days pass quickly and without trouble. I have colleagues who also work with me, who have clearances for the same corridors, and they, too, love Friend Computer.
I hear whispers about Communists, but I know Friend Computer keeps me safe. I trust Friend Computer.
Thank you, Friend Computer!
posted by subbes at 2:37 PM on October 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
I have no concerns about life, no questions about The Outdoors, and am perfectly provided for by Friend Computer.
My days pass quickly and without trouble. I have colleagues who also work with me, who have clearances for the same corridors, and they, too, love Friend Computer.
I hear whispers about Communists, but I know Friend Computer keeps me safe. I trust Friend Computer.
Thank you, Friend Computer!
posted by subbes at 2:37 PM on October 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
jiawen Fantasy Grounds II is pretty good for a lot on non-d20 stuff these days, btw. I've mainly played Savage Worlds with it, for instance.
posted by howfar at 2:39 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by howfar at 2:39 PM on October 16, 2012
I've just gotten back into RPing properly after a break of many many years - and it is so much better than when I was a teen. Seriously. I play with my husband, his brother and one of our friends and it's great. The guys tend to get a little rulesy (I don't caaaaaaare that I can get extra skill points if I dump them in X and Y and blaaaaaaaaaaaah) but I still really enjoy it. It's made me happier and more at ease socialising with them (even though I tend to be quiet ingame since I am not going to shout over the top of three dudes). We use HARP and something else I think and it's fun.
I'm also writing up the campaign which is it's whole own level of nerd. But that's been really good for my writing skills - like a bridge between original work and fanfic. I have the framework but making it make sense internally and externally and making it sound good has been an exercise in sideways thinking. Also the GM is a total snake so it's been good for me as a writer to get that push to be sneaky, be mean and be underhanded.
At the same time, I get a little nervous about analyses like these that posit only ever positive outcomes from engagement with things. Like books should never have age limits because 'kids gloss over what they can't understand' and 'books made me a better person' but not engaging with the fact that if there's a positive effect there can probably be a negative one (which is seen in a lot of feminist analyses of children's media). It's a difficult line to walk because who wants to be a douche and censor stuff? But there are the kids for whom it's a crutch that doesn't improve their skills in whatever. GMs that are actually bad, run a bad game and you don't get problem solving, or abstract thinking.
And as always, you can end up part of a social group that reinforces their own behaviour as normal and when you do get into the 'real world' it turns out that those behaviours are actually not normal/acceptable.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:53 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm also writing up the campaign which is it's whole own level of nerd. But that's been really good for my writing skills - like a bridge between original work and fanfic. I have the framework but making it make sense internally and externally and making it sound good has been an exercise in sideways thinking. Also the GM is a total snake so it's been good for me as a writer to get that push to be sneaky, be mean and be underhanded.
At the same time, I get a little nervous about analyses like these that posit only ever positive outcomes from engagement with things. Like books should never have age limits because 'kids gloss over what they can't understand' and 'books made me a better person' but not engaging with the fact that if there's a positive effect there can probably be a negative one (which is seen in a lot of feminist analyses of children's media). It's a difficult line to walk because who wants to be a douche and censor stuff? But there are the kids for whom it's a crutch that doesn't improve their skills in whatever. GMs that are actually bad, run a bad game and you don't get problem solving, or abstract thinking.
And as always, you can end up part of a social group that reinforces their own behaviour as normal and when you do get into the 'real world' it turns out that those behaviours are actually not normal/acceptable.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:53 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm running AD&D (deliberately, as a kind of ongoing experiment, instead of newer versions or retroclones) in 7 minutes. I'll let you know if I'm even more awesome after that.
posted by mobunited at 3:24 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by mobunited at 3:24 PM on October 16, 2012
WW LARPing prepares you for flame-wars, backstabbing and metagaming. Also known as office politics.
I knew a guy who was really really good at the backstabbery and manipulation aspects of live-action Vampire. Then he stopped showing up to game, and word came that he really, really didn't like what that said about him.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:51 PM on October 16, 2012
I knew a guy who was really really good at the backstabbery and manipulation aspects of live-action Vampire. Then he stopped showing up to game, and word came that he really, really didn't like what that said about him.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:51 PM on October 16, 2012
I've just gotten back into RPing properly after a break of many many years - and it is so much better than when I was a teen.
Except for the part where grown-ups have grown-up responsibilities and flake out on games all the time. not bitter.
posted by Zed at 3:53 PM on October 16, 2012
Except for the part where grown-ups have grown-up responsibilities and flake out on games all the time. not bitter.
posted by Zed at 3:53 PM on October 16, 2012
I can't speak for the benefits of playing, but running 4-hour tabletop games at (gaming) conventions is enough like making short presentations at (business) events that the skills carry over. For that matter, the 40-person LARP I ran was certainly an exercise in money management, event hosting, database management, web design, writing...
When I was in undergrad I heard about this new game called "Humans vs Zombies" that people were playing out at Goucher and a few other colleges, and decided that it was supercool, so I started up a game at my college. It's basically a massive game of tag with nerf guns that inspires a lot of working together and roleplaying and community building. I ran my ass off planning it- drawing up a ruleset, meeting with campus officials, creating and deploying advertising materials (ever walked to literally every building and bulletin board and a generous selection of lamp posts on a college campus with 250 fliers, a stapler, and a roll of packing tape?), meeting with campus officials, meeting with campus police, running lead-up events, and eventually burning through a week of my life actually running the damned thing. I learned so fucking much building that game from the ground up, planning out missions and the plot, balancing my desires for the rules against the needs and desires of the university authorities, and just generally acting in a leadership role.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:57 PM on October 16, 2012
When I was in undergrad I heard about this new game called "Humans vs Zombies" that people were playing out at Goucher and a few other colleges, and decided that it was supercool, so I started up a game at my college. It's basically a massive game of tag with nerf guns that inspires a lot of working together and roleplaying and community building. I ran my ass off planning it- drawing up a ruleset, meeting with campus officials, creating and deploying advertising materials (ever walked to literally every building and bulletin board and a generous selection of lamp posts on a college campus with 250 fliers, a stapler, and a roll of packing tape?), meeting with campus officials, meeting with campus police, running lead-up events, and eventually burning through a week of my life actually running the damned thing. I learned so fucking much building that game from the ground up, planning out missions and the plot, balancing my desires for the rules against the needs and desires of the university authorities, and just generally acting in a leadership role.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:57 PM on October 16, 2012
It's like that, but in our case we had 500 people, so it was more like the kind of roaming gank squads you see in PVP MMOs sometimes. All over campus. For a week.
I am still immensely proud of that. :D
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:27 PM on October 16, 2012
I am still immensely proud of that. :D
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:27 PM on October 16, 2012
howfar, thanks for the update! I'll add it to my page eventually.
posted by jiawen at 7:05 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by jiawen at 7:05 PM on October 16, 2012
OK, ran the session I was about to start a few posts back. A new character joined. He was an illusionist who promptly insulted the thieves guild, but managed to win the amused interest of the PCs, who had come in to meet the party treasurer.
Said treasurer was at the thieves' hangout to find a way to evade the heavy taxes normally levied on "miners" who harvest valuables from ruins freelance. His contact suggested cornering real estate in the north end because soldiers were pouring in for the new war (Against . . . the Giants!) and the officers don't want to live in tents.
The party suggested the illusionist use his spells to make some lousy properties look more inviting. Thus, our badass level 6-8 veterans of the Hill Giant Steading have commenced their next quest: real estate fraud linked to lucrative government contracts.
Maybe D&D is making us better people but man, I don't know if it's making us *good* people.
posted by mobunited at 7:16 PM on October 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
Said treasurer was at the thieves' hangout to find a way to evade the heavy taxes normally levied on "miners" who harvest valuables from ruins freelance. His contact suggested cornering real estate in the north end because soldiers were pouring in for the new war (Against . . . the Giants!) and the officers don't want to live in tents.
The party suggested the illusionist use his spells to make some lousy properties look more inviting. Thus, our badass level 6-8 veterans of the Hill Giant Steading have commenced their next quest: real estate fraud linked to lucrative government contracts.
Maybe D&D is making us better people but man, I don't know if it's making us *good* people.
posted by mobunited at 7:16 PM on October 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
i doubt it
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 11:56 PM on October 16, 2012
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 11:56 PM on October 16, 2012
+20 Companionship: A D10 Die Engagement Ring
posted by homunculus at 1:05 AM on October 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 1:05 AM on October 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
Whenever I succeed really well at things, I think "NATURAL 20, WHAAAT‽"
posted by exlotuseater at 10:06 PM on October 25, 2012
posted by exlotuseater at 10:06 PM on October 25, 2012
+20 Companionship: A D10 Die Engagement Ring
Cooler: dice rings
posted by Zed at 9:08 AM on October 26, 2012
Cooler: dice rings
posted by Zed at 9:08 AM on October 26, 2012
12-year-old uses Dungeons and Dragons to help scientist dad with his research
posted by homunculus at 3:26 PM on October 31, 2012
posted by homunculus at 3:26 PM on October 31, 2012
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posted by justkevin at 9:37 AM on October 16, 2012 [23 favorites]