between the lighter-skinned and darker-skinned members of the same community
October 27, 2012 10:15 AM Subscribe
A glance at shade-ism [video], skin 'lightening', and personal impact [video] for those who vary from cultural preference across the world.
"to darken us"
I don't want to be a jerk, but that "us" is kind of exclusive.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:43 AM on October 27, 2012 [10 favorites]
I don't want to be a jerk, but that "us" is kind of exclusive.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:43 AM on October 27, 2012 [10 favorites]
I don't want to be a jerk, but that "us" is kind of exclusive.
... to aspiring oompa-loompas?
posted by mhoye at 10:48 AM on October 27, 2012
... to aspiring oompa-loompas?
posted by mhoye at 10:48 AM on October 27, 2012
Wow, what a useless fucking map in the last link, as if skin color respected national borders. You're telling me that Libyans are significantly lighter than Egyptians?
posted by desjardins at 10:50 AM on October 27, 2012
posted by desjardins at 10:50 AM on October 27, 2012
I wonder if the standard of beauty is always outside the norm.
More seriously, the standard of beauty in this case seems to be "people who can afford not to work"; places where the labor is mostly outside praise pallor, places where it's mostly inside praise suntans.
Which is to say, "outside the norm" is certainly the case, but there's a profound element of classism to fashion that shouldn't be ignored.
posted by mhoye at 10:51 AM on October 27, 2012 [13 favorites]
More seriously, the standard of beauty in this case seems to be "people who can afford not to work"; places where the labor is mostly outside praise pallor, places where it's mostly inside praise suntans.
Which is to say, "outside the norm" is certainly the case, but there's a profound element of classism to fashion that shouldn't be ignored.
posted by mhoye at 10:51 AM on October 27, 2012 [13 favorites]
... to aspiring oompa-loompas?
To people in the US who were born with dark skin, and who come from communities where the use of skin lightening creams is not uncommon or foreign?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:55 AM on October 27, 2012 [8 favorites]
To people in the US who were born with dark skin, and who come from communities where the use of skin lightening creams is not uncommon or foreign?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:55 AM on October 27, 2012 [8 favorites]
Project Implicit (housed at Harvard), a series of self-tests that have already been taken by millions of people, clearly reinforce the message that "Dark Girls" so clearly gets across. *Anyone* who thinks that they don't have a color-related, prejudicial bone in their body should take one, or all, of the following tests: Skin-tone ('Light Skin - Dark Skin' IAT) or Race ('Black - White' IAT). These tests are VERY hard to fool. Don't try to fool them; take 15-20 minutes and see what happens.
This Google search lists additional studies, confirming skin color bias in ways - that if acted on (and they often are - causes real human harm, and injustice.
What's even more striking are studies (PDF download) that indicate that very small children - even children who are reared in families that strive toward inter-racial harmony - develop prjudices based on skin color (although those prejudices are not highly differentiated at an early age, they set the groundwork for increased skin-color biases, as children age).
Thus, I think it's really, really important to keep pointing out the facts of skin color bias out - over and over again. If we don't do that, it's too easy for us to fall into the trap of thinking that skin-color bias is "going away"; it's not. (as well as other kinds of bias that appear to be set up from an early age (even though they are not differentiated into explicit, definable, harmful prejudices until further reinforcement occurs).
Skin color bias is somehow related to cognitive, pattern-making abilities in our brains. We are wired to notice difference, making it all to easy to deploy those cognitiions in harmful ways if they become associated with negative qualities. Thus, it's our human, civilized, burden to keep reminding ourselves of this built-in cognitive, and human, weakness - and do whatever we can to diminish its impact..
posted by Vibrissae at 10:57 AM on October 27, 2012 [19 favorites]
This Google search lists additional studies, confirming skin color bias in ways - that if acted on (and they often are - causes real human harm, and injustice.
What's even more striking are studies (PDF download) that indicate that very small children - even children who are reared in families that strive toward inter-racial harmony - develop prjudices based on skin color (although those prejudices are not highly differentiated at an early age, they set the groundwork for increased skin-color biases, as children age).
Thus, I think it's really, really important to keep pointing out the facts of skin color bias out - over and over again. If we don't do that, it's too easy for us to fall into the trap of thinking that skin-color bias is "going away"; it's not. (as well as other kinds of bias that appear to be set up from an early age (even though they are not differentiated into explicit, definable, harmful prejudices until further reinforcement occurs).
Skin color bias is somehow related to cognitive, pattern-making abilities in our brains. We are wired to notice difference, making it all to easy to deploy those cognitiions in harmful ways if they become associated with negative qualities. Thus, it's our human, civilized, burden to keep reminding ourselves of this built-in cognitive, and human, weakness - and do whatever we can to diminish its impact..
posted by Vibrissae at 10:57 AM on October 27, 2012 [19 favorites]
It's interesting that the links about South and East Asia both note that shadeism predates colonialism, though I'm sure colonial racism (esp in South Asia) didn't help. I wonder if there was pre colonial shadeism in sub-Saharan Africa as well?
I have a somewhat torn relationship with shadeism, myself. I deplore it and - as a white person - feel guilty for it at the same time. I can't help but have pasty skin that falls firmly in the most acceptable range. (Even if it is blotchy and blemish-prone to such a degree that I'm sure no darker woman would actually want my skin). I want to help fight shadeism, but I'm so on the outside.
posted by jb at 11:44 AM on October 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I have a somewhat torn relationship with shadeism, myself. I deplore it and - as a white person - feel guilty for it at the same time. I can't help but have pasty skin that falls firmly in the most acceptable range. (Even if it is blotchy and blemish-prone to such a degree that I'm sure no darker woman would actually want my skin). I want to help fight shadeism, but I'm so on the outside.
posted by jb at 11:44 AM on October 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I don't want to be a jerk, but that "us" is kind of exclusive.
Whups, wasn't thinking. You're are absolutely correct and I apologize.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:08 PM on October 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
Whups, wasn't thinking. You're are absolutely correct and I apologize.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:08 PM on October 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
That Project Implicit test says I have a slight preference for the type of person that I am not, which is interesting. I'd be interested in taking the same test with women and men rather than white or black.
posted by davejay at 12:14 PM on October 27, 2012
posted by davejay at 12:14 PM on October 27, 2012
Re: the map. I went back and forth on that. The political boundaries plus visual effect of population densities make not the best representation, but I thought it was interesting enough to link.
posted by zennie at 12:15 PM on October 27, 2012
posted by zennie at 12:15 PM on October 27, 2012
It was interesting to notice while watching the US Presidential debates that Obama and Romney have roughly the same light-dark value, skin-wise.
And it's not Obama who's faking it.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:46 PM on October 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
And it's not Obama who's faking it.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:46 PM on October 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
mhoye: "More seriously, the standard of beauty in this case seems to be "people who can afford not to work"
I've always thought the same thing about long fingernails. You can't do real physical work with long nails.
posted by workerant at 1:04 PM on October 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've always thought the same thing about long fingernails. You can't do real physical work with long nails.
posted by workerant at 1:04 PM on October 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Skin-tone ('Light Skin - Dark Skin' IAT) : "Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between Light Skin and Dark Skin."
Hooray!
posted by HopperFan at 1:19 PM on October 27, 2012
Hooray!
posted by HopperFan at 1:19 PM on October 27, 2012
That Project Implicit test, on the iPad at least, conditions you to associate white/left with good and black/right with bad, then switches it on you. Of course you're going to be slower and make more mistakes when they switch it. I would be curious to see if they had the same results if they did not include the racial factor (i.e. purely a test of automatic preference between right and left side) or if instead of pictures of white and black people they used random blocks of color (e.g. Green/pink preference).
posted by pravit at 2:35 PM on October 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by pravit at 2:35 PM on October 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
Coco Chanel started a trend in the 20s for tanning--proof that you had the funds and the time to loll about on the beach or on a yacht.
posted by Ideefixe at 5:17 PM on October 27, 2012
posted by Ideefixe at 5:17 PM on October 27, 2012
Coco Chanel started a trend in the 20s for tanning--proof that you had the funds and the time to loll about on the beach or on a yacht.
Or on a farm.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:20 PM on October 27, 2012
Or on a farm.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:20 PM on October 27, 2012
Thanks zennie for the post on this topic.
When I grew up for 4 years in Jamaica, West Indies, I was painfully aware of my parents' gross racism but enjoyed my school being completely mixed with every variation of color/culture combo, including Chigros (Chinese-Negro) and outside of home did not experience such intense racism.
In NYC from 1962 to 1970 it was miserable experiencing the overt racism/bigotry of the day. All the groups seemed to loathe and despise each other, based on color but also on religion, country, accent, everything. However, if a person developed a thick enough skin to insults, there was opportunity for anybody to make money, to succeed in any number of ways, politically, socially, in Hollywood, in publishing, in music, at any level of society, whatever their color, creed or country.
In Europe from 1970 to 1975, I experienced less overt racism but there was, in my observation, dramatically less opportunity for people to succeed financially or socially outside the white group with entrenched power/money/breeding.
When I hitch hiked from Europe to India overland in 1975 and went into local shops to browse in Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, there would always be a whole variety of skin lightening face creams. Typically, the most popular one was Afghan Snow and others, supposedly with crushed pearls as an ingredient, to make the skin "snowlike", presumably white as snow or white as a pearl. In the Indian marriage ads a main topic was about skin color, "wheatish" being the color most preferred. I felt dismayed, rushes of schadenfruede and fremdschämen. It seemed in these countries, which had much less of a racial mix than the West, people were biased about skin color among themselves, shamelessly so. The people in the marriage ads spoke about themselves as compassionate, educated, humble but most definitely wanted a "wheatish" complected spouse.
Then I learned about the complex topic of the caste system in India. It seems the color bias in India went back to at least 1500 BC, when the Aryans were thought to have invaded India.
One of the things that amused me in India was that my Caucasian skin color was liked but my blonde hair color was perceived as something I should have dyed black, as it was experienced by both Indians and Tibetans as undesirably like yellowed paper or an old person and my blue eyes were not much enjoyed as blue is often the color of blind eyes or old ones with cataracts. My Caucasian teeth were not as white as Asian teeth. I wear glasses and many Asian woman do not. It was just my skin color that was liked and then I had to ruin it by loving to lie in the sun and get tanned, lol
Returning to NYC at the end of 1985 I was deeply glad Spike Lee opened up the topic of intra-racial color bias in his brave School Daze and happy that NYC was by then so complex culturally that the force of the racial/color hate between any one group against another had much less impact than it had in the 60's and 70's.
Still, Oprah wore Caucasian hairstyle wigs and contact lenses to change her eye color and Michael Jackson self-mutilated with plastic surgeries and the skin dyeing thing. That felt like such a let down, cowardice and soul selling. I wish Oprah, particularly, could have been herself, naturally. Especially now she's globally admired and a mega-millionaire. It would be a brave thing to do, be natural.
An article I enjoyed about colorism.
I'm grateful Obama has a wife who has darker skin than he does. I think that's an important example for others who are color biased.
posted by nickyskye at 5:54 PM on October 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
When I grew up for 4 years in Jamaica, West Indies, I was painfully aware of my parents' gross racism but enjoyed my school being completely mixed with every variation of color/culture combo, including Chigros (Chinese-Negro) and outside of home did not experience such intense racism.
In NYC from 1962 to 1970 it was miserable experiencing the overt racism/bigotry of the day. All the groups seemed to loathe and despise each other, based on color but also on religion, country, accent, everything. However, if a person developed a thick enough skin to insults, there was opportunity for anybody to make money, to succeed in any number of ways, politically, socially, in Hollywood, in publishing, in music, at any level of society, whatever their color, creed or country.
In Europe from 1970 to 1975, I experienced less overt racism but there was, in my observation, dramatically less opportunity for people to succeed financially or socially outside the white group with entrenched power/money/breeding.
When I hitch hiked from Europe to India overland in 1975 and went into local shops to browse in Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, there would always be a whole variety of skin lightening face creams. Typically, the most popular one was Afghan Snow and others, supposedly with crushed pearls as an ingredient, to make the skin "snowlike", presumably white as snow or white as a pearl. In the Indian marriage ads a main topic was about skin color, "wheatish" being the color most preferred. I felt dismayed, rushes of schadenfruede and fremdschämen. It seemed in these countries, which had much less of a racial mix than the West, people were biased about skin color among themselves, shamelessly so. The people in the marriage ads spoke about themselves as compassionate, educated, humble but most definitely wanted a "wheatish" complected spouse.
Then I learned about the complex topic of the caste system in India. It seems the color bias in India went back to at least 1500 BC, when the Aryans were thought to have invaded India.
One of the things that amused me in India was that my Caucasian skin color was liked but my blonde hair color was perceived as something I should have dyed black, as it was experienced by both Indians and Tibetans as undesirably like yellowed paper or an old person and my blue eyes were not much enjoyed as blue is often the color of blind eyes or old ones with cataracts. My Caucasian teeth were not as white as Asian teeth. I wear glasses and many Asian woman do not. It was just my skin color that was liked and then I had to ruin it by loving to lie in the sun and get tanned, lol
Returning to NYC at the end of 1985 I was deeply glad Spike Lee opened up the topic of intra-racial color bias in his brave School Daze and happy that NYC was by then so complex culturally that the force of the racial/color hate between any one group against another had much less impact than it had in the 60's and 70's.
Still, Oprah wore Caucasian hairstyle wigs and contact lenses to change her eye color and Michael Jackson self-mutilated with plastic surgeries and the skin dyeing thing. That felt like such a let down, cowardice and soul selling. I wish Oprah, particularly, could have been herself, naturally. Especially now she's globally admired and a mega-millionaire. It would be a brave thing to do, be natural.
An article I enjoyed about colorism.
I'm grateful Obama has a wife who has darker skin than he does. I think that's an important example for others who are color biased.
posted by nickyskye at 5:54 PM on October 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
That Project Implicit test, on the iPad at least, conditions you to associate white/left with good and black/right with bad, then switches it on you.
The researchers address this in their FAQ, which says individual results may show an effect, but it will be very small. Aggregate results are not affected. One gets the sense they are being pretty rigorous with their methodology.
It is taking all of my willpower to post this without including a snarky remark.
posted by sudama at 7:07 PM on October 27, 2012
The researchers address this in their FAQ, which says individual results may show an effect, but it will be very small. Aggregate results are not affected. One gets the sense they are being pretty rigorous with their methodology.
It is taking all of my willpower to post this without including a snarky remark.
posted by sudama at 7:07 PM on October 27, 2012
What is a wheatish complexion, anyway? A Google image search brings up a range of skin tones, from this relatively pale woman to this darker skinned man to this woman in between the two, whose skin is described in the caption as "dusky."
posted by desjardins at 7:33 PM on October 27, 2012
posted by desjardins at 7:33 PM on October 27, 2012
I know a Cape Verdean who is a very sweet girl, but hates, absolutely hates, latinos, especially those of Columbian descent. We are very close to having the "You know, I'm white, and let me tell you how I see you, and how anyone else who's my shade of pale sees you" conversation. I had to have it once before with a friend who was of Sicilian descent who really, really didn't like black people.
I have had similar conversations with darker hued Indian colleagues who thought being lighter was better... no. Buddy, depending on where you are in the country, we don't even consider Swedes, Irish or Poles white.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:01 PM on October 27, 2012
I have had similar conversations with darker hued Indian colleagues who thought being lighter was better... no. Buddy, depending on where you are in the country, we don't even consider Swedes, Irish or Poles white.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:01 PM on October 27, 2012
I'm grateful Obama has a wife who has darker skin than he does. I think that's an important example for others who are color biased.
You make it sound like a cynical ploy. I'm 99% sure I heard their marriage being spun this way by some lunatic truther, that the marriage was formulated to ensure his bona fides among African American voters.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:24 PM on October 27, 2012
You make it sound like a cynical ploy. I'm 99% sure I heard their marriage being spun this way by some lunatic truther, that the marriage was formulated to ensure his bona fides among African American voters.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:24 PM on October 27, 2012
a cynical ploy
Say wha???!!! No way. I'm sincere in what I said, nothing remotely cynical about it.
posted by nickyskye at 9:09 PM on October 27, 2012
Say wha???!!! No way. I'm sincere in what I said, nothing remotely cynical about it.
posted by nickyskye at 9:09 PM on October 27, 2012
I know a Cape Verdean who is a very sweet girl, but hates, absolutely hates, latinos, especially those of Columbian descent. We are very close to having the "You know, I'm white, and let me tell you how I see you, and how anyone else who's my shade of pale sees you" conversation. I had to have it once before with a friend who was of Sicilian descent who really, really didn't like black people.
I have had similar conversations with darker hued Indian colleagues who thought being lighter was better... no. Buddy, depending on where you are in the country, we don't even consider Swedes, Irish or Poles white.
What? You really lecture people about their racial feelings and biases from a " You know, I'm white, and let me tell you how I see you" perspective?
Also, I can't speak for Cape Verde or Columbians, but I'm of Indian origin and the "lighter is better" cultural bias, while it sucks, is not about passing as white.
posted by sweetkid at 10:32 PM on October 27, 2012
desjardins, wheatish is exactly what you depicted in those photographs, a range, from white bread to whole wheat.
posted by nickyskye at 7:04 AM on October 28, 2012
posted by nickyskye at 7:04 AM on October 28, 2012
Say wha???!!! No way. I'm sincere in what I said, nothing remotely cynical about it.
I didn't think you were cynical. It still kind of weirds me out, though, because you weren't. Kind of like saying, "Your marriage has great symbolic merit for the world", never mind the value it has to the people actually married, who may have been drawn together by a mutual love, respect and commitment, for whom skin color may never have been a cause. Had Obama married a lighter skinned woman, or heaven forbid, a blond haired blue eyed white girl, would it be reason to think he'd done a disservice to us all by his example? Make him unworthy of respect? Or office? It kind of bothers me to think that the President's (or my) marriage has value in a way which may have no significance to the people married. Or even be offensive to/at odds with the persons involved. I view this as a way racism poisons us even when we are well intentioned.
I have a feeling the President didn't get married for my approval. I'm sure he rests well at night knowing that he got it all the same, right?
posted by 2N2222 at 1:46 AM on October 30, 2012
I didn't think you were cynical. It still kind of weirds me out, though, because you weren't. Kind of like saying, "Your marriage has great symbolic merit for the world", never mind the value it has to the people actually married, who may have been drawn together by a mutual love, respect and commitment, for whom skin color may never have been a cause. Had Obama married a lighter skinned woman, or heaven forbid, a blond haired blue eyed white girl, would it be reason to think he'd done a disservice to us all by his example? Make him unworthy of respect? Or office? It kind of bothers me to think that the President's (or my) marriage has value in a way which may have no significance to the people married. Or even be offensive to/at odds with the persons involved. I view this as a way racism poisons us even when we are well intentioned.
I have a feeling the President didn't get married for my approval. I'm sure he rests well at night knowing that he got it all the same, right?
posted by 2N2222 at 1:46 AM on October 30, 2012
Vibrissae: "*Anyone* who thinks that they don't have a color-related, prejudicial bone in their body should take one, or all, of the following tests"
Booyah! "Your data suggest little to no difference in implicit preference between Black People and White People. "
posted by Bugbread at 11:09 PM on October 31, 2012
Booyah! "Your data suggest little to no difference in implicit preference between Black People and White People. "
posted by Bugbread at 11:09 PM on October 31, 2012
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I wonder if the standard of beauty is always outside the norm.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:23 AM on October 27, 2012 [1 favorite]