10 Conversations On Racism I’m Sick Of Having With White People
November 7, 2012 5:28 AM Subscribe
The following are 10 conversations that I would be happy never to have with white people ever, ever, ever again. While there are countless others, these are at least 10 that I’m forced to endure far too often.
A MESSAGE FROM AN EDITOR TO RACIST WHITES with regard to the comments section of this article.
1) Racism Is Bad
2) You Should Stay And Fight For Change
3) I Don’t SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Race!!!!!
4) Being Expected To Take It
5) Conflating Racism For ClassismOn what happens when white folks think they've achieved Speshul White Person status6) Erasing Racism From Racial IssuesShall We Talk About Privilege7) Prove It To Me
8) I’m Really Not The Angry Militant POC You Think I Am
9) Self-Esteem Negates All Racism
10) Racism Is Not Happening In A Vacuum
A MESSAGE FROM AN EDITOR TO RACIST WHITES with regard to the comments section of this article.
This post was deleted for the following reason: This is something that might be good in a more comprehensive post, but as a single-link angry post seems mostly grar bait that generates a lot of nitpicking, accusation slinging and anger. Maybe try it again in a framework that offers more to discuss? -- taz
"What, no links to the full scientific study?"
Well if you insist, here is a particularly interesting one on a distantly related but timely topic.
The Impact of Anti-Black Racism on Approval of Barack Obama’s Job Performance and on Voting in the 2012 Presidential Election (PDF)
Executive Summary
Anti-Black attitudes became slightly more common between 2008 and 2012. Sizable proportions of both Democrats and Republicans manifested anti-Black attitudes, though anti-Black attitudes were more common among Republicans than among Democrats. People who identified themselves as Republicans in 2012 expressed anti-Black attitudes more often than did Republican identifiers in 2008. People with more negative attitudes toward Blacks were less likely to approve of President Obama’s job performance. The influence of racial attitudes on approval of Mr. Obama’s job performance decreased between 2010 and 2012. If anti-Black attitudes had been converted to be neutral, about 2 to 3 percentage points more people would have approved of President Obama’s job performance in 2010 and 2012. If both anti-Black and pro-Black attitudes had been converted to be neutral, the proportion of Americans disapproving of President Obama’s job performance would have been 1 to 3 percentage points lower in both 2010 and 2012. In 2012, holding negative attitudes toward Blacks increased the likelihoods of voting for Mr. Romney and not voting at all and decreased the likelihood of voting for Mr. Obama. Neutralizing anti-Black attitudes led to a projected increase in Mr. Obama’s 2012 vote share of 4 percentage points and a projected decrease in Mr. Romney’s 2012 vote share of 5 percentage points. Converting both anti-Black and pro-Black attitudes to neutral led to a projected increase in Mr. Obama’s 2012 vote share of 2 percentage points and a projected decrease in Mr. Romney’s 2012 vote share of 3 percentage points.
I had considered making it a post over the last week or so but figured the mods would be happier if I didn't.
posted by Blasdelb at 5:44 AM on November 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
Well if you insist, here is a particularly interesting one on a distantly related but timely topic.
The Impact of Anti-Black Racism on Approval of Barack Obama’s Job Performance and on Voting in the 2012 Presidential Election (PDF)
Executive Summary
I had considered making it a post over the last week or so but figured the mods would be happier if I didn't.
posted by Blasdelb at 5:44 AM on November 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
Number 5) Conflating Racism For Classism really drives me up the wall as a white, socialist bloke, as there are so many vulgar internet marxists who pull that trick to reject concerns of racism or sexism.
posted by MartinWisse at 5:47 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by MartinWisse at 5:47 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
This is probably a sub-category of one of the topics: We Can't Be Racist, We Just Elected A Black Man As President. Again!
posted by rtha at 5:51 AM on November 7, 2012
posted by rtha at 5:51 AM on November 7, 2012
Sincere question to the author about 1) , from a lily-white as they come chick - I do understand that you'd prefer that I talk to other white folks about racism being shitty. And I do that. So how would you prefer I respond to YOU when YOU are talking to ME about it? I understand that you feel an expression of sympathy sounds condescending, and I am clear that you want me to go tell other white people it's bad, but I'm not quite clear how you'd prefer I respond to YOU.
Unless you're asking me to actually walk away from our conversation for a moment and go find another white guy and say "hey! listen to what happened to this person, racism sucks!" and then come back over and keep talking to you, because that just seems weird.
....Okay, I'm being a little facetious. But speaking for this one white person, sometimes I fall back on "wow, that sucks" because I sincerely don't know what the fuck else to say and I just feel so damn helpless and my heart is breaking that you have to go through this. That's what say when anyone I care about is hurting about anything and they've vented to me but the person who hurt them isn't there.
Yeah, it sounds condescending, but sometimes we just don't know what the fuck else to say because the world is so shitty.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:56 AM on November 7, 2012 [4 favorites]
Unless you're asking me to actually walk away from our conversation for a moment and go find another white guy and say "hey! listen to what happened to this person, racism sucks!" and then come back over and keep talking to you, because that just seems weird.
....Okay, I'm being a little facetious. But speaking for this one white person, sometimes I fall back on "wow, that sucks" because I sincerely don't know what the fuck else to say and I just feel so damn helpless and my heart is breaking that you have to go through this. That's what say when anyone I care about is hurting about anything and they've vented to me but the person who hurt them isn't there.
Yeah, it sounds condescending, but sometimes we just don't know what the fuck else to say because the world is so shitty.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:56 AM on November 7, 2012 [4 favorites]
"Wow, that sucks" has always worked for me when I've heard it from a friend who's not queer (for instance) and I tell a story about some homophobic thing that's happened to me; ditto when recounting a racist incident.
Mostly, it's just a "don't nitpick/try to analyze/fix the thing I'm telling you about while I'm telling you about it", you know? For me, at least.
posted by rtha at 6:09 AM on November 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
Mostly, it's just a "don't nitpick/try to analyze/fix the thing I'm telling you about while I'm telling you about it", you know? For me, at least.
posted by rtha at 6:09 AM on November 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
how would you prefer I respond to YOU when YOU are talking to ME about it?
Let's say someone just told you their mother died. Which is a better response?
"That sucks, I'm really sorry," or
"I know jut how you feel -- my cat died last week."
I think what the author is saying is that when they tell you about their experience with racism you should just listen and acknowledge, rather than debate them on it.
Another example -- when we have our monthly "this is the bullshit women have to deal with" thread, what do you want men to say?
posted by modernserf at 6:11 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Let's say someone just told you their mother died. Which is a better response?
"That sucks, I'm really sorry," or
"I know jut how you feel -- my cat died last week."
I think what the author is saying is that when they tell you about their experience with racism you should just listen and acknowledge, rather than debate them on it.
Another example -- when we have our monthly "this is the bullshit women have to deal with" thread, what do you want men to say?
posted by modernserf at 6:11 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
I really enjoyed the closer, the conversations he'd love to have. A friend of mine who's a screenwriter has initiated that last one before; I remember thinking it was great.
posted by ifjuly at 6:13 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by ifjuly at 6:13 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Funny. That's also a list of 10 conversations I'd be happy never to have with a black person again.
posted by planet at 6:13 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by planet at 6:13 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't "wow, that sucks" violate Argument #1? Seems like it.
Outragefilter is tingling...
posted by ShutterBun at 6:14 AM on November 7, 2012
Outragefilter is tingling...
posted by ShutterBun at 6:14 AM on November 7, 2012
Funny. That's also a list of 10 conversations I'd be happy never to have with a black person again.
If you've got nothing but racist shit to post, maybe rethink posting.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:19 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
If you've got nothing but racist shit to post, maybe rethink posting.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:19 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
Modernserf, that's why I'm confused - you are implying that "wow that sucks" IS the preferred response, but the author of the article is saying that "wow that sucks" sounds condescending.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:19 AM on November 7, 2012
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:19 AM on November 7, 2012
If the conversation does turn to race, this list does seem to approach a collectively exhaustive set.
posted by randomkeystrike at 6:22 AM on November 7, 2012
posted by randomkeystrike at 6:22 AM on November 7, 2012
modernserf: "I think what the author is saying is that when they tell you about their experience with racism you should just listen and acknowledge, rather than debate them on it. "
No, the author is pretty explicitly saying that he/she is tired of people listening and acknowledging, because he/she considers saying "yeah, racism sucks" to be shallow, patronizing, and obvious.
All the others are pretty good points, but when you add this one into the mix, it starts sounding a little less like "here are specific conversations on racism I'm sick of having with white people" and more like "I'm actually sick of having any conversation about racism whatsoever with white people".
posted by Bugbread at 6:23 AM on November 7, 2012
No, the author is pretty explicitly saying that he/she is tired of people listening and acknowledging, because he/she considers saying "yeah, racism sucks" to be shallow, patronizing, and obvious.
All the others are pretty good points, but when you add this one into the mix, it starts sounding a little less like "here are specific conversations on racism I'm sick of having with white people" and more like "I'm actually sick of having any conversation about racism whatsoever with white people".
posted by Bugbread at 6:23 AM on November 7, 2012
I think what the author is saying is that when they tell you about their experience with racism you should just listen and acknowledge, rather than debate them on it.
I would change that to "listen, acknowledge, and make normal conversation." Because that's what we do in other hard and emotional conversation topics: Oh, your mom just died? That's terrible. How are you feeling? Is there anything I can do? How's your brother handling things?
In other words, apply some basic sensitivity, part of which is being aware that the person has probably had variations of this conversation a million times and that there are both positive and negative patterns that the conversation can fall into, and that you have some control as to whether the conversation is great or terrible.
posted by Forktine at 6:25 AM on November 7, 2012
I would change that to "listen, acknowledge, and make normal conversation." Because that's what we do in other hard and emotional conversation topics: Oh, your mom just died? That's terrible. How are you feeling? Is there anything I can do? How's your brother handling things?
In other words, apply some basic sensitivity, part of which is being aware that the person has probably had variations of this conversation a million times and that there are both positive and negative patterns that the conversation can fall into, and that you have some control as to whether the conversation is great or terrible.
posted by Forktine at 6:25 AM on November 7, 2012
Does it make me a bad person that I was relieved to find that I don't do the things on the list?
Racism is bad.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:26 AM on November 7, 2012
Racism is bad.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:26 AM on November 7, 2012
I raised the argument, so let me also say a defense - I do get that it is condescending. Hell, even I think it's condescending. "Man, it sucks" is such a weak response.
However, if you know the person you're talking to, it's kind of easy to tell whether that "Man that sucks" is coming from a place of blithe "sucks to be you, bro" indifference, or an impotent "I wish to God the world was a better place for you" sympathy. All we can keep doing is working on getting to know each other as people, and that will help us come up with better expressions of commiseration.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 AM on November 7, 2012
However, if you know the person you're talking to, it's kind of easy to tell whether that "Man that sucks" is coming from a place of blithe "sucks to be you, bro" indifference, or an impotent "I wish to God the world was a better place for you" sympathy. All we can keep doing is working on getting to know each other as people, and that will help us come up with better expressions of commiseration.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 AM on November 7, 2012
I got the impression that #1 meant that she was sick of white people complaining to her about racism, not that she doesn't want them to acknowledge what she is saying.
posted by modernserf at 6:28 AM on November 7, 2012
posted by modernserf at 6:28 AM on November 7, 2012
Wouldn't "wow, that sucks" violate Argument #1? Seems like it.
Well, I'm not the author of the linked piece, and I was speaking only for myself. And since it's been years and years since I had people in my life who were condescending when they said shit like that, I feel pretty safe saying that - again, for me - if a friend of mine says "Wow, that sucks", I know they mean just that, and not some pat-on-the-head bullshit thing.
posted by rtha at 6:29 AM on November 7, 2012
Well, I'm not the author of the linked piece, and I was speaking only for myself. And since it's been years and years since I had people in my life who were condescending when they said shit like that, I feel pretty safe saying that - again, for me - if a friend of mine says "Wow, that sucks", I know they mean just that, and not some pat-on-the-head bullshit thing.
posted by rtha at 6:29 AM on November 7, 2012
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Joshin' you. Off to read links now.
posted by rtha at 5:40 AM on November 7, 2012 [1 favorite]