The Ten Least Powerful People In Comics
November 21, 2012 11:42 PM Subscribe
The Ten Least Influential People in Comics
4. Hardcore Comics Fans
Congratulations. You remade all of show business in your image. Your prize? Near-daily lectures as to why your opinions are not important.
4. Hardcore Comics Fans
Congratulations. You remade all of show business in your image. Your prize? Near-daily lectures as to why your opinions are not important.
you have to actually be Gary Groth to get the Gary Groth joke and even he's a little confused
posted by the theory of revolution at 11:53 PM on November 21, 2012 [13 favorites]
posted by the theory of revolution at 11:53 PM on November 21, 2012 [13 favorites]
So that's what Gary Groth looks like. I imagined a much more grizzled person.
I got the jokes and I'm just a humble reader.
posted by gnuhavenpier at 11:59 PM on November 21, 2012
I got the jokes and I'm just a humble reader.
posted by gnuhavenpier at 11:59 PM on November 21, 2012
"Turned a not-exactly-sure-thing creative relaunch put together at a panicked pace into a sustained sales bonanza yet failed to secure 1/10 the credit afforded management personnel, licensed properties and I believe the weather."
The second sentence of the first entry, and ... what?
posted by lkc at 12:06 AM on November 22, 2012 [6 favorites]
The second sentence of the first entry, and ... what?
posted by lkc at 12:06 AM on November 22, 2012 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry, but that first image seriously disturbed me. NO WAY would any comic guy dive around in his comics. The covers would tear off! Think of the shearing forces!!
It's like Scrooge McDuck using dollars to light his cigar - it goes against everything he stands for. For the picture to work, especially as a Scrooge McDuck homage, those comics have to be protected in robust CGC boxes. With high grade labels, obviously.
That image is definitely NSFW, if you work in a comic shop.
posted by EnterTheStory at 12:12 AM on November 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
It's like Scrooge McDuck using dollars to light his cigar - it goes against everything he stands for. For the picture to work, especially as a Scrooge McDuck homage, those comics have to be protected in robust CGC boxes. With high grade labels, obviously.
That image is definitely NSFW, if you work in a comic shop.
posted by EnterTheStory at 12:12 AM on November 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
I like the top of the page picture, with the Simpsons' Comic Book Guy diving in an Uncle Scroogesque Comics Bin. Specifically, I like the titles: Nothin' But DUCKS, Woman Man, Larva Girl, BRAIN in a JAR, Weasel Woman, etc. There's at least two Carl Barks references: one comic is just the word BARKS, and another is a Scrooge reference: Uncle Tightwad. (There's also Radioactive Man, Itchy & Scratchy, and an unnamed one that's clearly Duffman in there.)
posted by JHarris at 12:19 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 12:19 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
I don't know anything about Comics, but I'd like to see more of these kinds of lists. "The Least Influential"? That's a great category.
Usually at the end of each year there's a general roundup of top ten lists, or lists of the "best of" or the "most memorable" or some kind of shout out to special things that happened that year. 2012 will be no different. Unless we embrace this novel ideal of giving recognition to the least important movers and shakers; the people who made absolutely no difference.
My personal recommendation for Not Person of Year, a man who has had such a negligible impact on all of our lives, a man who will always be forgotten as someone who, when the chips were down, when push came to shove, said those famous words: "Uh, is this the exit?"
That's right. I'm talking about Bobby Smeldov, of 1479 Terrace Way, because he is the man we should all remember to forget in 2013.
posted by twoleftfeet at 12:23 AM on November 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
Usually at the end of each year there's a general roundup of top ten lists, or lists of the "best of" or the "most memorable" or some kind of shout out to special things that happened that year. 2012 will be no different. Unless we embrace this novel ideal of giving recognition to the least important movers and shakers; the people who made absolutely no difference.
My personal recommendation for Not Person of Year, a man who has had such a negligible impact on all of our lives, a man who will always be forgotten as someone who, when the chips were down, when push came to shove, said those famous words: "Uh, is this the exit?"
That's right. I'm talking about Bobby Smeldov, of 1479 Terrace Way, because he is the man we should all remember to forget in 2013.
posted by twoleftfeet at 12:23 AM on November 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
trust me, I'm less important than any of these people. even Alan Moore.
posted by philip-random at 12:28 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 12:28 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Ha, I love this list. There's been a lot of stuff around lately about geek culture and geek culture untouchables and this does a good job of bringing up stuff that is problematic, as well as some smh-fodder in general. Oh Alan Moore.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:38 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 12:38 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
"Turned a not-exactly-sure-thing creative relaunch put together at a panicked pace into a sustained sales bonanza yet failed to secure 1/10 the credit afforded management personnel, licensed properties and I believe the weather."He's talking about the DC 52 relaunch DC went for roughly a ayear ago, where allt heir existing superhero titles got cancelled and replaced by hipper, newer titles, again. That was a serious risk quite a few comics shop owners took a agamble on and partially thanks to their support it became a success, for comics values of succes.
The second sentence of the first entry, and ... what?
posted by MartinWisse at 12:39 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I wasn't sure if that was alan moore or carmen sandiego.
posted by dubold at 2:18 AM on November 22, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by dubold at 2:18 AM on November 22, 2012 [7 favorites]
I gotta say, that "Wimmen's Comics #7" cover is pretty badass.
posted by eurypteris at 2:23 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by eurypteris at 2:23 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Is this something I'd need to not be a virgin to understand?
I keed, I keed.
posted by bardic at 2:25 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
I keed, I keed.
posted by bardic at 2:25 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
2. All Women In The Comics Industry Ever
I don't think I get the joke.
Any of it. This one especially. What about Kate Beaton? Ms Gail S? Er.... I am sure there are more.
posted by Mezentian at 3:20 AM on November 22, 2012
I don't think I get the joke.
Any of it. This one especially. What about Kate Beaton? Ms Gail S? Er.... I am sure there are more.
posted by Mezentian at 3:20 AM on November 22, 2012
I think it's to do with the Moore backlash.
Lost Girls, his more recent LXG comics (ha!) and that Necronomicon one seem to have put more than a few people off side.
That, and I suspect Moore's bitter attitude (whether you think it's valid or not), don't help.
posted by Mezentian at 3:46 AM on November 22, 2012
Lost Girls, his more recent LXG comics (ha!) and that Necronomicon one seem to have put more than a few people off side.
That, and I suspect Moore's bitter attitude (whether you think it's valid or not), don't help.
posted by Mezentian at 3:46 AM on November 22, 2012
Man. That was some impenetrable prose. I keep re-reading it and none of those sentences make any fucking sense. And not just in a "I'm not into comics, so I don't know any of this minutia" way, but mostly "I speak english and I can't make sense of these familiar words put together this way."
posted by Thorzdad at 4:15 AM on November 22, 2012 [11 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 4:15 AM on November 22, 2012 [11 favorites]
Yeah, this is very Inside Baseball. Basically, the recent debut issue of Bleeding Cool magazine had a very silly "Top 100 Power List Of The Comic Book Industry" and this is a jokey riposte to it, gathering up a lot of the recent mini-kerfuffles in the comic industry (fake geek girls, female creators, Alan Moore and Before Watchmen etc) while also spoofing the language of these sort of things (hence the impenetrable prose).
(I like the Tony Wizard, Jr joke)
(It's written by Tom Spurgeon, aka #9 on the list)
posted by Hartster at 4:44 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
(I like the Tony Wizard, Jr joke)
(It's written by Tom Spurgeon, aka #9 on the list)
posted by Hartster at 4:44 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I don't think I get the joke.
Any of it. This one especially. What about Kate Beaton? Ms Gail S? Er.... I am sure there are more.
Not so much in the comics industry. They are not talking about web comics, here, and not even, I suspect, the smaller independent comics publishers.
I have not been involved in selling comics for more than a decade, but it was always really depressing to hear comics industry people (and comic store owners) say "we want women to buy comics," then pretty much ignore everything that women said they wanted in comics, either when they (rarely) were asked or what they bought. You would point at the huge success of Manga in the late 90s and say "women are buying these, apparently because they like the characters and the plots" and the major comics companies would respond by grudgingly finding an artist who could ape the style and keep telling the same stories. Then when they would fail to gain a huge female audience, the comic companies would moan "why don't women want to read our comics," not buying the explanation that, as it turns out, women don't seem to really want to read superhero comics written for teen boys (or older guys who still like stories directed at teen boys).
I know a guy who used to work for TokyoPop, and he'd talk to friends from Marvel and DC, and they would complain about women readership, and he's say "our comics have tons of female readers." And they would look at him blankly, because their real question was "how can we get women to read our comics without changing anything we are doing, our corporate culture, or threatening our core demographic which will always trump everything else."
It's a little like the way that the Black Widow pretty much carried the plot of The Avengers around, but movie reviewers tended to forget she was in the movie. Whew. It's an old complaint, and still infuriating.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:00 AM on November 22, 2012 [26 favorites]
Any of it. This one especially. What about Kate Beaton? Ms Gail S? Er.... I am sure there are more.
Not so much in the comics industry. They are not talking about web comics, here, and not even, I suspect, the smaller independent comics publishers.
I have not been involved in selling comics for more than a decade, but it was always really depressing to hear comics industry people (and comic store owners) say "we want women to buy comics," then pretty much ignore everything that women said they wanted in comics, either when they (rarely) were asked or what they bought. You would point at the huge success of Manga in the late 90s and say "women are buying these, apparently because they like the characters and the plots" and the major comics companies would respond by grudgingly finding an artist who could ape the style and keep telling the same stories. Then when they would fail to gain a huge female audience, the comic companies would moan "why don't women want to read our comics," not buying the explanation that, as it turns out, women don't seem to really want to read superhero comics written for teen boys (or older guys who still like stories directed at teen boys).
I know a guy who used to work for TokyoPop, and he'd talk to friends from Marvel and DC, and they would complain about women readership, and he's say "our comics have tons of female readers." And they would look at him blankly, because their real question was "how can we get women to read our comics without changing anything we are doing, our corporate culture, or threatening our core demographic which will always trump everything else."
It's a little like the way that the Black Widow pretty much carried the plot of The Avengers around, but movie reviewers tended to forget she was in the movie. Whew. It's an old complaint, and still infuriating.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:00 AM on November 22, 2012 [26 favorites]
2. All Women In The Comics Industry Ever
Sorry, dozens of amazing artists, writers, publishers, retailers, journalists, teachers, administrators, institution heads, syndicate editors, and that person running maybe the biggest single-artist-based media empire in comics: there are multiple dudes editing new versions of old superhero books out here.
OH GOOD I WAS WORRIED HAVING A VAGINA WAS FUCKING THINGS UP FOR THE COMICS INDUSTRY
Seriously, fuck that sexist noise.
posted by Kitteh at 5:04 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Sorry, dozens of amazing artists, writers, publishers, retailers, journalists, teachers, administrators, institution heads, syndicate editors, and that person running maybe the biggest single-artist-based media empire in comics: there are multiple dudes editing new versions of old superhero books out here.
OH GOOD I WAS WORRIED HAVING A VAGINA WAS FUCKING THINGS UP FOR THE COMICS INDUSTRY
Seriously, fuck that sexist noise.
posted by Kitteh at 5:04 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Do you mean the sentiment is sexist or the industry? Women are completely marginalized in every single aspect of mainstream comics.
posted by griphus at 5:11 AM on November 22, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by griphus at 5:11 AM on November 22, 2012 [7 favorites]
"No one's defending you, impossibly hot guy faking his geek credentials to impress... okay, I still don't get the original thing this entry is supposed to make fun of."
Okay that is fucking hilarious.
posted by griphus at 5:16 AM on November 22, 2012
Okay that is fucking hilarious.
posted by griphus at 5:16 AM on November 22, 2012
Kitteh: I think Spurgeon's point is actually that there are a ton of women involved in comics, including Diane Nelson (head of DC, hence "biggest single-artist-based media empire in comics") and that they make a huge contribution to the comic industry.
This is a pretty obscure post unless you know Tom Spurgeon, the current comic industry, and Spurgeon's views on the current comic industry.
(griphus: define mainstream. The most mainstream comic shop I know has over 50% female customers; the most mainstream comics I read are written by, for and feature women. If by mainstream you mean: US superhero comics published by Marvel and DC then yeah, they are under-represented, but I also think that's an odd definition of mainstream, which I suspect is part of the point Spurgeon is making above.)
posted by Hartster at 5:17 AM on November 22, 2012
This is a pretty obscure post unless you know Tom Spurgeon, the current comic industry, and Spurgeon's views on the current comic industry.
(griphus: define mainstream. The most mainstream comic shop I know has over 50% female customers; the most mainstream comics I read are written by, for and feature women. If by mainstream you mean: US superhero comics published by Marvel and DC then yeah, they are under-represented, but I also think that's an odd definition of mainstream, which I suspect is part of the point Spurgeon is making above.)
posted by Hartster at 5:17 AM on November 22, 2012
I just asked my girliend, who works in comics, and she says Marvel/DC cape books are something like 85-90% percent of comics sales, but she says it has been a while since she has seen the numbers.
posted by griphus at 5:20 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by griphus at 5:20 AM on November 22, 2012
It seems to me that Alan Moore is extremely influential and widely regarded as one of the coolest people in the world, whereas the people at DC who've gone out of their way to alienate him are basically famous for sucking. But maybe that's just my own opinion, and not a general consensus.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:23 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:23 AM on November 22, 2012
And, er, yeah, "underrepresented" is putting it mildly. I dare anyone here to come up with ten women writers or artists who are making a living in the Marvel/DC cape world that remotely matches the exposure the average male writer has. Here, I will even help:
1. Gail Simone
2.
posted by griphus at 5:27 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
1. Gail Simone
2.
posted by griphus at 5:27 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
griphus: Marvel/DC comics are almost certainly a high percentage of sales in US comic book shops, most of whom are basically super hero comic shops. They're a very low percentage of comic book sales in (say) France or Japan or Korea or Italy. They're also a smaller percentage of sales in book stores or comic shops like (say) Comix Experience, or Gosh, or Page 45 etc.
DC/Marvel books aren't the industry, nor are they the mainstream of comics. It's fine to say "women are marginalised in superhero comics books". I think it's a bit like saying women are underrepresented in pro wrestling myself, but it's a statement that is accurate as far as it goes. It's just less accurate when talking about the "comics industry".
(Also, in terms of working for DC/Marvel at the moment:
2. Kelly-Sue DeConnick
3. Marjorie Liu
4. Amanda Conner
5. Emma Rios
6. Laura Martin
7. Sara Pichelli
8. Kathryn Immonen
9. Fiona Staples
10. Anne Nocenti
Which is without really trying, and I don't really read Marvel/DC. But yeah, they are definitely under-represented in the one section of the industry that is mainly bought by men, and if the superhero industry wants to grow its audience it needs more diversity. I suspect it may be too late in the game however and the temptation is to shore up what little it has)
posted by Hartster at 5:47 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
DC/Marvel books aren't the industry, nor are they the mainstream of comics. It's fine to say "women are marginalised in superhero comics books". I think it's a bit like saying women are underrepresented in pro wrestling myself, but it's a statement that is accurate as far as it goes. It's just less accurate when talking about the "comics industry".
(Also, in terms of working for DC/Marvel at the moment:
2. Kelly-Sue DeConnick
3. Marjorie Liu
4. Amanda Conner
5. Emma Rios
6. Laura Martin
7. Sara Pichelli
8. Kathryn Immonen
9. Fiona Staples
10. Anne Nocenti
Which is without really trying, and I don't really read Marvel/DC. But yeah, they are definitely under-represented in the one section of the industry that is mainly bought by men, and if the superhero industry wants to grow its audience it needs more diversity. I suspect it may be too late in the game however and the temptation is to shore up what little it has)
posted by Hartster at 5:47 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
Hartster, I think you and I may actually be agreeing with one another but working with two very different concepts of the "comics industry."
posted by griphus at 5:55 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by griphus at 5:55 AM on November 22, 2012
My husband and I are friends with Jennifer De Guzman--currently PR/Marketing director for Image--and to hear the shit she has to deal on a TOO-regular basis, is ridiculous. She tweeted about this list last night and smirked at it.
I agree that women make a huge contribution to the comics industry, but putting how they don't matter on a list? That's messed up and needs to stop. Because unless I misread that entry, it essentially says, "Yeah, I know there are a lot of you ladies out there working in this industry, but guess what? A dude is always gonna be more important at this than you are."
posted by Kitteh at 5:56 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I agree that women make a huge contribution to the comics industry, but putting how they don't matter on a list? That's messed up and needs to stop. Because unless I misread that entry, it essentially says, "Yeah, I know there are a lot of you ladies out there working in this industry, but guess what? A dude is always gonna be more important at this than you are."
posted by Kitteh at 5:56 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I recognise Anne Nocenti (didn't se ruin the New Mutants?) and Amanda Conner (... hurhm... Before Watchman?) but, and I don't worry about bleh-feminism-grar so much, I am wondering how come 2000AD lacks much in the way of female "talent".
I hope I am forgetting facts. If 2000AD lacks any women creative types I'm actually going to feel bad, and confused.
posted by Mezentian at 5:59 AM on November 22, 2012
I hope I am forgetting facts. If 2000AD lacks any women creative types I'm actually going to feel bad, and confused.
posted by Mezentian at 5:59 AM on November 22, 2012
"Yeah, I know there are a lot of you ladies out there working in this industry, but guess what? A dude is always gonna be more important at this than you are."
I think you are missing the "this is bullshit and needs to be pointed out more often" subtext. This list is a satirical reaction to every other sort of this list in which womens' contributions are routinely ignored. At this moment, what you said reflects reality.
posted by griphus at 6:00 AM on November 22, 2012 [10 favorites]
I think you are missing the "this is bullshit and needs to be pointed out more often" subtext. This list is a satirical reaction to every other sort of this list in which womens' contributions are routinely ignored. At this moment, what you said reflects reality.
posted by griphus at 6:00 AM on November 22, 2012 [10 favorites]
Yeah, I should really stop being hysterical because I don't get the satire. Stupid ovaries.
posted by Kitteh at 6:07 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by Kitteh at 6:07 AM on November 22, 2012
griphus: yeah, I think we do agree on most things, especially that any aspect of an industry (however you define it) that is losing readers by the year, and that then either explicitly or implicitly excludes women (along with other sizable populations such as young readers) is one that is doing things pretty wrong and will (deservedly) suffer because of it. I do have a very specific concept of the industry, which is undoubtedly shaped by having Page 45 as my local store.
Mezentian: I think you may have just summoned ArtW to the thread...
posted by Hartster at 6:08 AM on November 22, 2012
Mezentian: I think you may have just summoned ArtW to the thread...
posted by Hartster at 6:08 AM on November 22, 2012
I recognise Anne Nocenti (didn't se ruin the New Mutants?)
No, that was Louise Simonson. Nocenti wrote some damn fine Daredevil and was Claremont's editor on much of infamous X-Men run.
Do not talk bad about Anne Nocenti.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:09 AM on November 22, 2012
No, that was Louise Simonson. Nocenti wrote some damn fine Daredevil and was Claremont's editor on much of infamous X-Men run.
Do not talk bad about Anne Nocenti.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:09 AM on November 22, 2012
Yeah, I should really stop being hysterical because I don't get the satire. Stupid ovaries.
It's just not great satire, ovaries or not.
posted by Mezentian at 6:10 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's just not great satire, ovaries or not.
posted by Mezentian at 6:10 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
No, that was Louise Simonson
My mistake.
Mea culpa.
But those were awful comics.
posted by Mezentian at 6:14 AM on November 22, 2012
My mistake.
Mea culpa.
But those were awful comics.
posted by Mezentian at 6:14 AM on November 22, 2012
Kelly-Sue DeConnick is kicking ass and taking names right now.
I hope I am forgetting facts. If 2000AD lacks any women creative types I'm actually going to feel bad, and confused.
Technically they are all robots, working for an alien. As sides from that it's pretty grim.
There's, um, a letterer. There was a writer back in the 90s. Pretty much a total sausage fest really, it's a little shameful.
posted by Artw at 6:15 AM on November 22, 2012
I hope I am forgetting facts. If 2000AD lacks any women creative types I'm actually going to feel bad, and confused.
Technically they are all robots, working for an alien. As sides from that it's pretty grim.
There's, um, a letterer. There was a writer back in the 90s. Pretty much a total sausage fest really, it's a little shameful.
posted by Artw at 6:15 AM on November 22, 2012
Yes, I still remember them after all these years. Oddly enough, her X-Factor writing wasn't that bad.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:16 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:16 AM on November 22, 2012
My husband and I are friends with Jennifer De Guzman--currently PR/Marketing director for Image--and to hear the shit she has to deal on a TOO-regular basis, is ridiculous. She tweeted about this list last night and smirked at it.
I follow her on twitter - she's awesome.
posted by Artw at 6:17 AM on November 22, 2012
I follow her on twitter - she's awesome.
posted by Artw at 6:17 AM on November 22, 2012
My reading of that 2000AD link is that there have been as many people called Jim Campbell write for 2000AD in 35 years as there have been women. That's mildly impressive.
posted by Hartster at 6:20 AM on November 22, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Hartster at 6:20 AM on November 22, 2012 [4 favorites]
It's problematic. 2000ad is pretty meritocratic, they have open submissions and if you write or draw the kind of thing 2000ad publishes and at good there's a pretty direct path to getting in on that alone. But the people trying for that tend to be longtime fans themselves and that's a pool that leans heavily male.
posted by Artw at 6:28 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by Artw at 6:28 AM on November 22, 2012
Oddly enough, her X-Factor writing wasn't that bad.
X-Factor before Peter David came along for the first time was such awful dreck anyway that's not exactly a high bar to clear.
That really was the first clear Marvel title with no reason to exist; even Alpha Flight could boast that it was Canadian.
I think Spurgeon's point is actually that there are a ton of women involved in comics, including Diane Nelson (head of DC, hence "biggest single-artist-based media empire in comics")
Actually, I read that as refering to Kate Beacon. Either that or Jennifer de Guzman.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:32 AM on November 22, 2012
X-Factor before Peter David came along for the first time was such awful dreck anyway that's not exactly a high bar to clear.
That really was the first clear Marvel title with no reason to exist; even Alpha Flight could boast that it was Canadian.
I think Spurgeon's point is actually that there are a ton of women involved in comics, including Diane Nelson (head of DC, hence "biggest single-artist-based media empire in comics")
Actually, I read that as refering to Kate Beacon. Either that or Jennifer de Guzman.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:32 AM on November 22, 2012
I think the point of it was basically "hey, you have those other X Men characters you're not doing anything with, they should be making money too."
posted by Artw at 6:38 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:38 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I love how that line of logic eventually mutated (ha HA!) into "look if you're writing a book with the letter 'X' in the title, Wolverine needs to be in it."
posted by griphus at 6:41 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by griphus at 6:41 AM on November 22, 2012
I know I seem to be plugging it every other thread that involves comics or creators being fucked over or business interests crushing creativity, but seriously Marvel: The Untold story is a GREAT read for the background for that sort of thing, if hugely depressing, likely to make you never want to work in comics and generally take a dim view of humanity in general.
posted by Artw at 6:47 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:47 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I will be getting it soonish; ordering it from thebookdepository.co.uk if they don't fsck up my trial order first.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:52 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by MartinWisse at 6:52 AM on November 22, 2012
Karen Berger maybe? Though Vertigo is very much on the way out and calling it an empire is a bit much.
posted by Artw at 7:10 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by Artw at 7:10 AM on November 22, 2012
Louise Simonson's run on X Factor finally got interesting about 10 issues before Marvel took her off the title. I was always a little meh about Peter David's run but then I've always been a little meh about Peter David in general.
posted by KingEdRa at 7:34 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by KingEdRa at 7:34 AM on November 22, 2012
Congratulations. You remade all of show business in your image. Your prize? Near-daily lectures as to why your opinions are not important.
That would be awesome, actually. What's really happening is that they must make a big show of Respecting Nerds because they know that if they hit a handful of critical motifs, they can sell any old shit to them. "Look, it's a reference to that Spider-Man cover, you fucking pigs!" except well, they only *think* the last part.
posted by mobunited at 7:42 AM on November 22, 2012
That would be awesome, actually. What's really happening is that they must make a big show of Respecting Nerds because they know that if they hit a handful of critical motifs, they can sell any old shit to them. "Look, it's a reference to that Spider-Man cover, you fucking pigs!" except well, they only *think* the last part.
posted by mobunited at 7:42 AM on November 22, 2012
Fake Nerd Execs!
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
The latest Nerdist Writers Panel has a lots of Peter David action.
posted by Artw at 7:49 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by Artw at 7:49 AM on November 22, 2012
I think you are missing the "this is bullshit and needs to be pointed out more often" subtext. This list is a satirical reaction to every other sort of this list in which womens' contributions are routinely ignored. At this moment, what you said reflects reality.
This.
See also #8: The Fake Geek Guy. "No one's defending you, impossibly hot guy faking his geek credentials to impress... okay, I still don't get the original thing this entry is supposed to make fun of."
(Original thing.)
posted by Sys Rq at 7:59 AM on November 22, 2012
This.
See also #8: The Fake Geek Guy. "No one's defending you, impossibly hot guy faking his geek credentials to impress... okay, I still don't get the original thing this entry is supposed to make fun of."
(Original thing.)
posted by Sys Rq at 7:59 AM on November 22, 2012
Because unless I misread that entry, it essentially says, "Yeah, I know there are a lot of you ladies out there working in this industry, but guess what? A dude is always gonna be more important at this than you are."
I understand why the slimness of the entry might lead you to misinterpret his position as you have, but just for the record it would be difficult to find a male comics industry professional, critic or creator, who's done more to respect - and raise the profile of - women in comics than Tom Spurgeon.
Seriously. The guy's been fighting the good fight on that one for decades.
posted by mediareport at 8:11 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
I understand why the slimness of the entry might lead you to misinterpret his position as you have, but just for the record it would be difficult to find a male comics industry professional, critic or creator, who's done more to respect - and raise the profile of - women in comics than Tom Spurgeon.
Seriously. The guy's been fighting the good fight on that one for decades.
posted by mediareport at 8:11 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
but seriously Marvel: The Untold story is a GREAT read for the background for that sort of thing, if hugely depressing
I don't read comics. What's more, I bitch about it every time someone posts a comics post to the front page.
That said, I'm old enough to have grown up during the Silver Age of Comics, and during that period I *did* read Marvel comics -- both as US imports, and in the various Odhams Power Comics. There was a shop in Liverpool that sold back issues of a huge range of US titles for a fraction of what they would have cost as imports -- not just Marvel and DC comics, but US copies of Mad, Cracked, various horror magazines (not really my thing), Charlton comics, the Archie and Jughead stuff, Richie Rich, etc. etc.
What I was told was that they were used as ballast on the ships bringing stuff into the docks, and then sold off for nothing. I know I was picking them up for something like ten for a shilling back in those pre-decimal days, whereas in shops that sold them as imports, you'd pay about a shilling each for them.
And what did I buy and read at the time? Daredevil #1. Silver Surfer #1. Plastic Man #1. Howard The Duck #1. Read them and lashed them. They were ephemeral things at the time. They cost pennies.
Anyway, despite the fact that today, I'm a great big comics whiner with no real interest in the subject, back in the day, I was an obsessive reader of Stan Lee's Bullpen columns, and certainly felt like a member of the Merry Marvel Marching Society -- even if I didn't have an official membership.
So for nostalgia reasons, I recently picked up a copy of Marvel: The Untold Story -- and Artw is absolutely right. If you've got any interest in the area at all, it's a great read.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:18 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
I don't read comics. What's more, I bitch about it every time someone posts a comics post to the front page.
That said, I'm old enough to have grown up during the Silver Age of Comics, and during that period I *did* read Marvel comics -- both as US imports, and in the various Odhams Power Comics. There was a shop in Liverpool that sold back issues of a huge range of US titles for a fraction of what they would have cost as imports -- not just Marvel and DC comics, but US copies of Mad, Cracked, various horror magazines (not really my thing), Charlton comics, the Archie and Jughead stuff, Richie Rich, etc. etc.
What I was told was that they were used as ballast on the ships bringing stuff into the docks, and then sold off for nothing. I know I was picking them up for something like ten for a shilling back in those pre-decimal days, whereas in shops that sold them as imports, you'd pay about a shilling each for them.
And what did I buy and read at the time? Daredevil #1. Silver Surfer #1. Plastic Man #1. Howard The Duck #1. Read them and lashed them. They were ephemeral things at the time. They cost pennies.
Anyway, despite the fact that today, I'm a great big comics whiner with no real interest in the subject, back in the day, I was an obsessive reader of Stan Lee's Bullpen columns, and certainly felt like a member of the Merry Marvel Marching Society -- even if I didn't have an official membership.
So for nostalgia reasons, I recently picked up a copy of Marvel: The Untold Story -- and Artw is absolutely right. If you've got any interest in the area at all, it's a great read.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:18 AM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Wrong thread.
posted by Artw at 8:19 AM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've always had good results from thebookdepository MartinWisse. A bit slow, but reliable.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:22 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:22 AM on November 22, 2012
I knew Alan Moore would be in there before I even looked at the article. God, I love Alan Moore.
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:24 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:24 AM on November 22, 2012
As someone who used to fancy himself a writer and a reader and who now mostly reads comics, the quality of this guy's prose scares the fuck out of me. He's just a poor writer, right? This isn't the obvious result of reading mostly books with pictures, right?
posted by elr at 8:28 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by elr at 8:28 AM on November 22, 2012
A Brief and Probably Wrong Guide To The Ten Least Powerful People in Comics List
10. Comic Shop Owners - Taken for granted by the companies producing and distributing comics; that Kevin Smith show isn't doing them any favors.
09. Tom Spurgeon - Spurgeon often finds himself on the opposite side of choices made by the industry's two biggest publishers. Until recently, he was doing freelance work for Marvel's on-line entity, and I can't remember if he decided not to to continue due to principles or if the decision was made for him due to some critical things he's said about Marvel. I know this is superficial, but frankly, svelt Spurgeon is one damn sexy man.
08. The Fake Geek Guy - A response to the latest round of misogynist bullshit to swirl around the comics bowl.
07. Scott Dunbier - A playful jab at the IDW editor, pretending that their fucking beautiful and damn expensive artist edition books were actually supposed to be flops, a la 'Springtime For Hitler' in The Producers.
06. Lower-Rung Marvel Publishing Employees - See The Cheapskate is Coming From Inside The House of Ideas
05. Tony Wizard, Jr. - Phony namesake of now-cancelled Wizard magazine, seen as many as a symptom/cause of everything wrong with comics since its debut in the early ninties, which in itself was a symptom/cause of everything wrong with comics.
04. Hardcore Comics Fans - That one's fairly self-explanatory. And very funny.
03. Gary Groth - Similar to the Dunbier gag, pretending that the notorious comic-snob publisher and former Spurgeon employer is just at heart, just another nostalgic vulgarian.
02. All Women In The Comics Industry Ever - I would think this one is self-explanatory, but apparently not. Despite great work being done by women cartoonists, their work is often marginalized, dismissed, or ignored by media and suchlike simply because there aren't a lot of them churning out superhero shit. This also ties into the 'Why don't girls read comics?' canard that is thankfully on the decline, and the Fake Geek Girl nonsense mentioned in 08. The 'single-artist empire' thing reads to me like an independent creator, probably Beaton.
01. Alan Moore - Go fuck yourself, Alan Moore.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:36 AM on November 22, 2012 [10 favorites]
10. Comic Shop Owners - Taken for granted by the companies producing and distributing comics; that Kevin Smith show isn't doing them any favors.
09. Tom Spurgeon - Spurgeon often finds himself on the opposite side of choices made by the industry's two biggest publishers. Until recently, he was doing freelance work for Marvel's on-line entity, and I can't remember if he decided not to to continue due to principles or if the decision was made for him due to some critical things he's said about Marvel. I know this is superficial, but frankly, svelt Spurgeon is one damn sexy man.
08. The Fake Geek Guy - A response to the latest round of misogynist bullshit to swirl around the comics bowl.
07. Scott Dunbier - A playful jab at the IDW editor, pretending that their fucking beautiful and damn expensive artist edition books were actually supposed to be flops, a la 'Springtime For Hitler' in The Producers.
06. Lower-Rung Marvel Publishing Employees - See The Cheapskate is Coming From Inside The House of Ideas
05. Tony Wizard, Jr. - Phony namesake of now-cancelled Wizard magazine, seen as many as a symptom/cause of everything wrong with comics since its debut in the early ninties, which in itself was a symptom/cause of everything wrong with comics.
04. Hardcore Comics Fans - That one's fairly self-explanatory. And very funny.
03. Gary Groth - Similar to the Dunbier gag, pretending that the notorious comic-snob publisher and former Spurgeon employer is just at heart, just another nostalgic vulgarian.
02. All Women In The Comics Industry Ever - I would think this one is self-explanatory, but apparently not. Despite great work being done by women cartoonists, their work is often marginalized, dismissed, or ignored by media and suchlike simply because there aren't a lot of them churning out superhero shit. This also ties into the 'Why don't girls read comics?' canard that is thankfully on the decline, and the Fake Geek Girl nonsense mentioned in 08. The 'single-artist empire' thing reads to me like an independent creator, probably Beaton.
01. Alan Moore - Go fuck yourself, Alan Moore.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:36 AM on November 22, 2012 [10 favorites]
How has the comic industry not destroyed itself already?
posted by hellojed at 9:26 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by hellojed at 9:26 AM on November 22, 2012
Mutant healing factor.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:29 AM on November 22, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:29 AM on November 22, 2012 [6 favorites]
I think some of the people here still don't understand that this list is joking off of conventional wisdom in the comics industry more than actually trying to show who has the least power. (Because that person would be me, who isn't even in comics. Can't have much less power than that.)
posted by JHarris at 9:32 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by JHarris at 9:32 AM on November 22, 2012
Actually, I read that as refering to Kate Beacon.
Does Kate Beaton have an "empire", much less the largest single-artist-based empire in comics?
posted by kenko at 9:33 AM on November 22, 2012
Does Kate Beaton have an "empire", much less the largest single-artist-based empire in comics?
posted by kenko at 9:33 AM on November 22, 2012
How has the comic industry not destroyed itself already?
There are two answers to that.
The snarky one is "not for lack of trying."
The real answer is that the parent companies of Marvel and DC (Disney and Time-Warner, specifically) are making a killing on merchandising. The franchises -- Batman, Superman, X-Men, Spider-Man, et. al. -- are worth millions upon millions of dollars in licensing. Avengers and Dark Knight Rises alone broke a lot of standing records. But the only way to keep that value up is to keep putting out comics. The actual comic books are hardly making anyone any money. Like, some of the existing shops are doing okay, but I do not think anyone would want to open a new shop right now unless a new market opens (i.e. a neighborhood gets hip.) But the Machine needs new ideas, and those ideas come from the comics.
posted by griphus at 9:38 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
There are two answers to that.
The snarky one is "not for lack of trying."
The real answer is that the parent companies of Marvel and DC (Disney and Time-Warner, specifically) are making a killing on merchandising. The franchises -- Batman, Superman, X-Men, Spider-Man, et. al. -- are worth millions upon millions of dollars in licensing. Avengers and Dark Knight Rises alone broke a lot of standing records. But the only way to keep that value up is to keep putting out comics. The actual comic books are hardly making anyone any money. Like, some of the existing shops are doing okay, but I do not think anyone would want to open a new shop right now unless a new market opens (i.e. a neighborhood gets hip.) But the Machine needs new ideas, and those ideas come from the comics.
posted by griphus at 9:38 AM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
Does Kate Beaton have an "empire", much less the largest single-artist-based empire in comics?
The "single artist" part there is the kicker. It's a rarity in general and, right now, you could make a strong argument that she's got the highest visibility for a comic both drawn and written by one person, and made with complete editorial independence.
posted by griphus at 9:42 AM on November 22, 2012
The "single artist" part there is the kicker. It's a rarity in general and, right now, you could make a strong argument that she's got the highest visibility for a comic both drawn and written by one person, and made with complete editorial independence.
posted by griphus at 9:42 AM on November 22, 2012
Exactly, that's how I read it.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:08 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by MartinWisse at 10:08 AM on November 22, 2012
I've always had good results from thebookdepository MartinWisse. A bit slow, but reliable.
Indeed. Got home and on on the mat there were the books I'd ordered a couple of weeks back.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:14 AM on November 22, 2012
Indeed. Got home and on on the mat there were the books I'd ordered a couple of weeks back.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:14 AM on November 22, 2012
It's how I buy all my chunky phonebook sized volumes of 2000ad stuff.
posted by Artw at 10:16 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by Artw at 10:16 AM on November 22, 2012
Does Kate Beaton have an "empire", much less the largest single-artist-based empire in comics?
It can't possibly be Kate Beaton. Even if you just stick to women at Drawn & Quarterly, Lynda Barry's empire is bigger, surely. On the other hand, maybe he means Peggy Burns, D&Q's associate publisher? Their empire is certainly made up of "single-artist-based" titles and she's second in command.
posted by looli at 10:40 AM on November 22, 2012
It can't possibly be Kate Beaton. Even if you just stick to women at Drawn & Quarterly, Lynda Barry's empire is bigger, surely. On the other hand, maybe he means Peggy Burns, D&Q's associate publisher? Their empire is certainly made up of "single-artist-based" titles and she's second in command.
posted by looli at 10:40 AM on November 22, 2012
Okay I tweeted at Tom Spurgeon asking him who he was referring to and alerting him to the thread. So hopefully we'll get an answer.
posted by griphus at 10:46 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by griphus at 10:46 AM on November 22, 2012
Heh, I was just about to do the same thing; someone asked here, but no response.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:50 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:50 AM on November 22, 2012
Uh, actually, due to the way protected Tweets work, he's not going to see it (all my Tweets are protected.) So can you go ahead and do it, plz?
posted by griphus at 10:52 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by griphus at 10:52 AM on November 22, 2012
Oh, well, if you're going to get all fact-checky that certainly rains on the speculation parade.
posted by looli at 10:53 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by looli at 10:53 AM on November 22, 2012
As an ex-comic reader the list made sense to me, and I got that it wasn't being mysogynistic. Also, I hated Alan Moore before it was popular.
posted by happyroach at 11:12 AM on November 22, 2012
posted by happyroach at 11:12 AM on November 22, 2012
He just tweeted that he was referring to Jeannie Schulz.
posted by griphus at 12:50 PM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by griphus at 12:50 PM on November 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
And that's why I'm not on the Least Influential People list.
*Tries to cross arms and assume heroic pose, pokes self in eye, collapses*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:42 PM on November 22, 2012
*Tries to cross arms and assume heroic pose, pokes self in eye, collapses*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:42 PM on November 22, 2012
I think some of the people here still don't understand that this list is joking off of conventional wisdom in the comics industry more than actually trying to show who has the least power.
Yeah, exactly. Expressing a bit of ironic disgust with the comics industry as multi-billion dollar industry that does its best to crush every bit of talent and progressivism and genuine good will. More clever than straight-up bitter, which was surprising and delightful.
I do feel like representing women in superhero comics is a bit of a losing battle, but not because it's not worthwhile or because women aren't interested, just because the people with the money don't give a fuck and superhero comics today just seem so bland and diluted and over that, I don't know. I feel like superhero comics as we know them are more likely to go extinct than adapt. I could be very wrong since I have been pretty bored with Marvel/DC since the 90s and have not paid attention in the last decade. But comparing it to pro-wrestling seems a bit of an odd fit to me since there's plenty for men and women to love in a good superhero comic, they're not restricted to theatricality anddeception machismo, there was plenty of stuff I fell in love with back in the day as a girl, but the standard for comics is so very low. I started giving up on superhero comics when I couldn't take the sexist bullshit anymore and felt like I was really boring myself and being dicked around with by publishers anyway. It's also a good point though that women are largely ignored because they don't produce the "money" stuff, even though they do great work and exist throughout every level of the comics industry... you wouldn't think so based on how comics are discussed and represented and promoted.
And the "women being uninfluential" thing reads as clear satire to me, though I could see how if you weren't wise to a lot of the references it would come off as incoherent. But the "fake geek guy" entry was the clincher. Stupid sexy fake geek guys...
posted by stoneandstar at 3:07 PM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, exactly. Expressing a bit of ironic disgust with the comics industry as multi-billion dollar industry that does its best to crush every bit of talent and progressivism and genuine good will. More clever than straight-up bitter, which was surprising and delightful.
I do feel like representing women in superhero comics is a bit of a losing battle, but not because it's not worthwhile or because women aren't interested, just because the people with the money don't give a fuck and superhero comics today just seem so bland and diluted and over that, I don't know. I feel like superhero comics as we know them are more likely to go extinct than adapt. I could be very wrong since I have been pretty bored with Marvel/DC since the 90s and have not paid attention in the last decade. But comparing it to pro-wrestling seems a bit of an odd fit to me since there's plenty for men and women to love in a good superhero comic, they're not restricted to theatricality and
And the "women being uninfluential" thing reads as clear satire to me, though I could see how if you weren't wise to a lot of the references it would come off as incoherent. But the "fake geek guy" entry was the clincher. Stupid sexy fake geek guys...
posted by stoneandstar at 3:07 PM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I just wishlisted Marvel: The Untold Story for buying after Christmas when it won't get lost in the post. Good job, everyone.
I have been pretty bored with Marvel/DC since the 90s and have not paid attention in the last decade.
The good news is that they are trying to win you back! The New 52 and Marvel NOW! are... hey, where are you going? Come back! Marvel has a new crossover, The Age Of Ultron.... it will CHANGE EVERYTHING! .... hey... why is everyone laughing?
posted by Mezentian at 5:11 PM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
I have been pretty bored with Marvel/DC since the 90s and have not paid attention in the last decade.
The good news is that they are trying to win you back! The New 52 and Marvel NOW! are... hey, where are you going? Come back! Marvel has a new crossover, The Age Of Ultron.... it will CHANGE EVERYTHING! .... hey... why is everyone laughing?
posted by Mezentian at 5:11 PM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Marvel actually have an insanely good creative line-up right now, some of the best people in the current generation of writers and artists, but I have a hell of a time trying to follow any of it because you are only ever a couple of months away from the next crossover or issue 1.
posted by Artw at 5:17 PM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:17 PM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
COUNTER ARGUMENT TO ALL THE GLOOM: Q: As part of the online "media", how in the hell do you stay positive about comics? Every other day is a fiasco.
As ever Chris Sims knocks it out of the park with his reply.
posted by Artw at 5:21 PM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
As ever Chris Sims knocks it out of the park with his reply.
posted by Artw at 5:21 PM on November 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
I've been wondering since the early 1990s why they persist with the mega-crossover. No one seems to like them that much: readers, writers or artists. It boggles the mind.
Yes, I am still bitter about the X-tinction Agenda.
As ever Chris Sims knocks it out of the park with his reply.
He does indeed.
posted by Mezentian at 5:26 PM on November 22, 2012
Yes, I am still bitter about the X-tinction Agenda.
As ever Chris Sims knocks it out of the park with his reply.
He does indeed.
posted by Mezentian at 5:26 PM on November 22, 2012
The fucking 90s...
(warning: may cause severe head slapping)
posted by Artw at 5:44 PM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
(warning: may cause severe head slapping)
posted by Artw at 5:44 PM on November 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've been wondering since the early 1990s why they persist with the mega-crossover. No one seems to like them that much: readers, writers or artists. It boggles the mind.
Yes, I am still bitter about the X-tinction Agenda.
Nobody may have liked them, but sales figures proved otherwise. See also.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:24 AM on November 23, 2012
Yes, I am still bitter about the X-tinction Agenda.
Nobody may have liked them, but sales figures proved otherwise. See also.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:24 AM on November 23, 2012
Oh, I remember when Mr Sinister and Apocalypse were good and interesting characters. So much mystery, and potential. And the unresolved Twelve plot was a tempting, tasty treat.
Hell, even Gambit was interesting.
posted by Mezentian at 3:35 AM on November 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
Hell, even Gambit was interesting.
posted by Mezentian at 3:35 AM on November 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm still pretty sure that Magneto is the third Summers brother.
posted by griphus at 5:33 AM on November 23, 2012
posted by griphus at 5:33 AM on November 23, 2012
In Tom Spurgeon-Made List-related news, The Comics Reporter's Black Friday Holiday Shopping Guide 2012 is up!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:08 AM on November 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:08 AM on November 23, 2012 [2 favorites]
There are already three Summers brothers - Cyclops, Havok and the other one? Adam X or Vulcan or something....
But, given his age (before he was de-aged) he'd have to be a grand-uncle or grand-father.
He probably fought Wolverine in WW1 or something too.
posted by Mezentian at 8:52 PM on November 23, 2012
But, given his age (before he was de-aged) he'd have to be a grand-uncle or grand-father.
He probably fought Wolverine in WW1 or something too.
posted by Mezentian at 8:52 PM on November 23, 2012
ADAM THE X-TREME! With the power to be the most 90s bullshit imaginable.
posted by Artw at 12:59 AM on November 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 12:59 AM on November 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
« Older The ++ operator is now illegal | What ever happened to Alice? Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by thecjm at 11:52 PM on November 21, 2012