The Other 11 Doctors
February 9, 2013 12:52 PM Subscribe
Oh God--Miriam Margolyes would have made one of the GREAT Doctors! Still would.
posted by yoink at 1:01 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by yoink at 1:01 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
I want to live in this alternate universe. Fantastic choices. Sue Perkins FTW.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:02 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:02 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
Weird that Mary Tamm and Lala Ward aren't on this list. Because surely if The Doctor were female, for the show to work, a lot of the companions would have been male; there'd have been a "Romano" male junior Time Lord companion.
I'd love a "Romana" spin-off, though obviously it'd have to be with a new actress in the role.
posted by eustacescrubb at 1:04 PM on February 9, 2013
I'd love a "Romana" spin-off, though obviously it'd have to be with a new actress in the role.
posted by eustacescrubb at 1:04 PM on February 9, 2013
This is an excellent list. Joanna Lumley or Miriam Margolyes would make/have made amazing Doctors.
posted by sbutler at 1:11 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by sbutler at 1:11 PM on February 9, 2013
But who would be the female Derek Jacobi?
posted by lumpenprole at 1:13 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by lumpenprole at 1:13 PM on February 9, 2013
Joanna Lumley or Miriam Margolyes would make/have made amazing Doctors.
Joanna Lumley did make an amazing Doctor, albeit briefly and non-canonically, in "The Curse of the Fatal Death".
But who would be the female Derek Jacobi?
Siân Phillips, of course.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:18 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Joanna Lumley did make an amazing Doctor, albeit briefly and non-canonically, in "The Curse of the Fatal Death".
But who would be the female Derek Jacobi?
Siân Phillips, of course.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:18 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Dame Judi Dench. For those who read the article.
posted by zoo at 1:20 PM on February 9, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by zoo at 1:20 PM on February 9, 2013 [7 favorites]
Dame Judi Dench. For those who read the article.
Dammit. Missed that part, sorry.
posted by lumpenprole at 1:21 PM on February 9, 2013
Dammit. Missed that part, sorry.
posted by lumpenprole at 1:21 PM on February 9, 2013
The only name I recognized was Honor Blackman. This list is super British! As it should be, I guess.
The pictures match up quite well.
posted by painquale at 1:38 PM on February 9, 2013
The pictures match up quite well.
posted by painquale at 1:38 PM on February 9, 2013
I liked Peter Davison all right but Joanna Lumley >>>> Davison. (And I loved Honor Blackman for Jon Pertwee. Yes!)
posted by immlass at 1:59 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by immlass at 1:59 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Honor Blackman from the early B&W Avengers, Joanna Lumley from the 'New Avengers' rehash... it opens up wide the possibility of Doctor Diana Rigg, or at least Linda Thorson (give her a chance to redeem herself from the charge of killing the original show... but with her luck, she'd be Doctor #7)
But since most of my BBC watching has been 'Brit-Coms', I can't avoid imagining Dawn "Vicar of Dibley" French or Wendy "Butterflies" Craig (of course, Geoffrey Palmer would've been a wonderfully curmudgeonly companion), and you can't do a total gender-flipping without Patricia "Hyacinth" Routledge as Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart.
Then again, why didn't they consider any of this universe's better Companions for that universe's Doctor? Elizabeth "Sarah Jane" Sladen FOR THE WIN.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:08 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
But since most of my BBC watching has been 'Brit-Coms', I can't avoid imagining Dawn "Vicar of Dibley" French or Wendy "Butterflies" Craig (of course, Geoffrey Palmer would've been a wonderfully curmudgeonly companion), and you can't do a total gender-flipping without Patricia "Hyacinth" Routledge as Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart.
Then again, why didn't they consider any of this universe's better Companions for that universe's Doctor? Elizabeth "Sarah Jane" Sladen FOR THE WIN.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:08 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
I know it's not one of the choices listed but I'd love to see Shirley Henderson in the role. Everyone's okay with just forgetting about "Love & Monsters," right?
posted by Navelgazer at 2:14 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by Navelgazer at 2:14 PM on February 9, 2013
If A) money were indeed no object, and B) Tilda Swinton turned it down, would anybody object to Emma Thompson? I would most certainly not.
posted by TheDorkReport at 2:19 PM on February 9, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by TheDorkReport at 2:19 PM on February 9, 2013 [4 favorites]
I don't know much about any of the actors presented, but the Sue Perkins Doctor sounds like she could be my Doctor. Queer Doctors FTW!
posted by divabat at 2:22 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by divabat at 2:22 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
Honor Blackman is a great choice. Miranda Hart... not so much.
posted by afx237vi at 2:33 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by afx237vi at 2:33 PM on February 9, 2013
I love Love & Monsters, and never understand all the hate that one gets.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:26 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:26 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hattie Jacques as the second Doctor is amazingly brilliant.
posted by Spatch at 3:26 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Spatch at 3:26 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
GOD THIS IS SO GOOD.
I love Joyce Grenfell. There's some fantastic observational humour and great characterisation in her work, so I'm sure she could switch from whimsy to cold dark steel in a moment.
Second Emma Thompson, oh my yes. She'd be perfect.
posted by alasdair at 3:41 PM on February 9, 2013
I love Joyce Grenfell. There's some fantastic observational humour and great characterisation in her work, so I'm sure she could switch from whimsy to cold dark steel in a moment.
Second Emma Thompson, oh my yes. She'd be perfect.
posted by alasdair at 3:41 PM on February 9, 2013
would anybody object to Emma Thompson?
I was about to say she's a bit old, at 53. And then I thought, Helen Mirren! Wait, she's even older than Emma. So, screw age. They'd both be great.
But let's bring it back down to earth. Someone good, but cheaper, right? And someone who's played both daffy and scary? Maybe even someone that's worked with Steven Moffat in the past?
I give you Gina Bellman.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:43 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
I was about to say she's a bit old, at 53. And then I thought, Helen Mirren! Wait, she's even older than Emma. So, screw age. They'd both be great.
But let's bring it back down to earth. Someone good, but cheaper, right? And someone who's played both daffy and scary? Maybe even someone that's worked with Steven Moffat in the past?
I give you Gina Bellman.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:43 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
And yes, it's eponysterical.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:45 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:45 PM on February 9, 2013
I want to live in this alternate universe. Fantastic choices. Sue Perkins FTW.
With Susan Calman as her perky Scottish companion, alternately gawking at the wonders of the Universe and then wanting to go home to visit her cats.
posted by jb at 3:51 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
With Susan Calman as her perky Scottish companion, alternately gawking at the wonders of the Universe and then wanting to go home to visit her cats.
posted by jb at 3:51 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
I love Love & Monsters, and never understand all the hate that one gets.
I thought it was a great episode, too -- my only hate (sadness, really) is for the very bitter bittersweet ending (not helped by the fact that I'm also a big fan of Shirley Henderson).
posted by jb at 3:55 PM on February 9, 2013
I thought it was a great episode, too -- my only hate (sadness, really) is for the very bitter bittersweet ending (not helped by the fact that I'm also a big fan of Shirley Henderson).
posted by jb at 3:55 PM on February 9, 2013
and yet just like the original 11, no people of colour :(
posted by kuppajava at 4:03 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by kuppajava at 4:03 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Tamsin Greig!
posted by whuppy at 4:13 PM on February 9, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 4:13 PM on February 9, 2013 [12 favorites]
Oh please, please one day may we have a differently gendered doctor? I would actually watch the show again if that happened.
[Sobbing gently] ... please?
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:15 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
[Sobbing gently] ... please?
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:15 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
Tamsin Greig!
That has long been my non-Swinton choice. I've been rewatching S1 of nuWho and had totally forgotten she has a small role in one episode ("The Long Game").
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
That has long been my non-Swinton choice. I've been rewatching S1 of nuWho and had totally forgotten she has a small role in one episode ("The Long Game").
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
The 1st Doctor should have been Jacqueline Hill. She played Barbara Wright, one of the original companions, and the character she created was more like all subsequent incarnations of the Doctor than Hartnell's portrayal. If I really wanted to beanplate it I'd claim that Barbara was the original Doctor.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:21 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:21 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Would have liked to see Hattie Hayridge (Holly 2 from Red Dwarf) in there somewhere. She'd have made a great alternate-reality 9th Doctor, but we'd have to move Suranne Jones somewhere. 13?
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:49 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:49 PM on February 9, 2013
(Come to think of it, we should merge the universes and Suranne Jones can be the 12th Doctor in both of them.)
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:52 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:52 PM on February 9, 2013
Oh please, please one day may we have a differently gendered doctor? I would actually watch the show again if that happened.
[Sobbing gently] ... please?
That’s what’s keeping you from watching the show?
I was really disappointed in the latest companion choice though. Another cute young feisty woman. They could really use a little more variety in the characters. What do I know? I liked Donna Noble.
posted by bongo_x at 6:26 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
[Sobbing gently] ... please?
That’s what’s keeping you from watching the show?
I was really disappointed in the latest companion choice though. Another cute young feisty woman. They could really use a little more variety in the characters. What do I know? I liked Donna Noble.
posted by bongo_x at 6:26 PM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
I should just file the numbers off and make a Space Tilda Swinton comic.
posted by Artw at 6:35 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:35 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
What do I know? I liked Donna Noble.
I liked Martha Jones.
"Doctor, when do we get to DO anything?"
"Did I ever tell you about Rose? Oh... Rose... Perfect, perfect Rose. "
"Fuck this, I'm off. "
posted by Artw at 6:37 PM on February 9, 2013 [9 favorites]
I liked Martha Jones.
"Doctor, when do we get to DO anything?"
"Did I ever tell you about Rose? Oh... Rose... Perfect, perfect Rose. "
"Fuck this, I'm off. "
posted by Artw at 6:37 PM on February 9, 2013 [9 favorites]
They need to return to that Leela dynamic, only more so. A companion who's a trained killer and the Doctor's always having to hold her back from slaying adversaries or anyone who's just annoying.
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:40 PM on February 9, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:40 PM on February 9, 2013 [10 favorites]
They need to return to that Leela dynamic, only more so. A companion who's a trained killer and the Doctor's always having to hold her back from slaying adversaries or anyone who's just annoying.
You have been reading Grant Morrison's recent Batman comics, yeah?
posted by Shepherd at 6:44 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
You have been reading Grant Morrison's recent Batman comics, yeah?
posted by Shepherd at 6:44 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sue Perkins as The Doctor is, like, the thing I never knew I always wanted.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:58 PM on February 9, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 6:58 PM on February 9, 2013 [10 favorites]
"Helen Mirren going on record as saying she’d love the role."
If she can do Prospero, she can do the Doctor. Moffat is a fool if he doesn't offer her a Christmas episode, at least.
posted by homunculus at 8:27 PM on February 9, 2013
If she can do Prospero, she can do the Doctor. Moffat is a fool if he doesn't offer her a Christmas episode, at least.
posted by homunculus at 8:27 PM on February 9, 2013
Donna Noble was the best companion - someone needs to not take the Doctor seriously.
Me, I'm still holding out for the Silurian Victorian Detective and her wife to get their own series.
posted by jb at 9:07 PM on February 9, 2013 [6 favorites]
Me, I'm still holding out for the Silurian Victorian Detective and her wife to get their own series.
posted by jb at 9:07 PM on February 9, 2013 [6 favorites]
I want to endorse jb's comments.
I'm of the old, grumpy school that wants the Doctor to always be a while, UK male.
Because: TRADITION.
Not that I would stop watching, and since seeing The Doctor's Wife I'm more open to the alternatives. And I will accept any changes as long as there is no hanky-panky on the TARDIS. Or in it. Or near it.
So, is it the end of March yet?
posted by Mezentian at 9:27 PM on February 9, 2013
I'm of the old, grumpy school that wants the Doctor to always be a while, UK male.
Because: TRADITION.
Not that I would stop watching, and since seeing The Doctor's Wife I'm more open to the alternatives. And I will accept any changes as long as there is no hanky-panky on the TARDIS. Or in it. Or near it.
So, is it the end of March yet?
posted by Mezentian at 9:27 PM on February 9, 2013
They need to stop doing the same "beat the bad guys by having these two people love each other/really believe in something" schtick they've been doing since the Tinkerbell Jesus episode.
It totally undermines what Dr. Who was all about for me.
posted by dunkadunc at 9:40 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
It totally undermines what Dr. Who was all about for me.
posted by dunkadunc at 9:40 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
I love Love & Monsters, and never understand all the hate that one gets.
Oh I do too, for most of it, but the ending of "well, she still gets to live an eternity as a living fucktoy" struck me as a particularly egregious piece of RTD suckage, and Shirley Henderson deserves better than that.
I'm really not a fan of RTD, but that's only because his writing was so awful so often.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:21 PM on February 9, 2013
Oh I do too, for most of it, but the ending of "well, she still gets to live an eternity as a living fucktoy" struck me as a particularly egregious piece of RTD suckage, and Shirley Henderson deserves better than that.
I'm really not a fan of RTD, but that's only because his writing was so awful so often.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:21 PM on February 9, 2013
Navelgazer: "I'm really not a fan of RTD, but that's only because his writing was so awful so often."
That is pretty much THE reason not to be a fan of Russell T. Davies.
posted by dunkadunc at 10:51 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
That is pretty much THE reason not to be a fan of Russell T. Davies.
posted by dunkadunc at 10:51 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Where's the petition? I'll start watching Dr. Who again if they get Sue Perkins to play the role.
posted by mmoncur at 10:59 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by mmoncur at 10:59 PM on February 9, 2013
but the ending of "well, she still gets to live an eternity as a living fucktoy" struck me as a particularly egregious piece of RTD suckage,
I'm still gobsmacked that that made it onto the screen.
And no one said: "Hey, waitaminute.... Does Doctor Who really need Advanced Fleshlight Techology?"
posted by Mezentian at 11:10 PM on February 9, 2013
I'm still gobsmacked that that made it onto the screen.
And no one said: "Hey, waitaminute.... Does Doctor Who really need Advanced Fleshlight Techology?"
posted by Mezentian at 11:10 PM on February 9, 2013
Having read RTDs account of scripting Who, the Writers Tale he strikes me as someone with immense drive and vision who just doesn't care about details. There are loads of examples of his scripts that are rushed or are unedited first draughts and a few scripts from other writers hobbled by the makeovers he gave to them.
I've a lot of respect for Russell, without him there wouldn't be modern Doctor Who at all, but I think he pretty much ran out of interesting ideas after the Eccleston year. One of the problems of NuWho is the show runner model of making television as it has been adopted by the BBC. Being exec producer and script editor and main writer is too much for anyone really. (Especially for two shows Moffat!)
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:52 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
I've a lot of respect for Russell, without him there wouldn't be modern Doctor Who at all, but I think he pretty much ran out of interesting ideas after the Eccleston year. One of the problems of NuWho is the show runner model of making television as it has been adopted by the BBC. Being exec producer and script editor and main writer is too much for anyone really. (Especially for two shows Moffat!)
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:52 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
I was a bit disappinted to find that The Writers Tale focused on one season and a late season at that - I was mostly interested in how he managed to bring Who back as a show that works and has mass appeal, and though it gives some insight into that it's not the main focus - the main focus is the RTD writing process and it is pretty much exactly as you would imagine it. He very much doesnt give a shit about well constructed science fiction plots and very much does care about the Doctor/Rose romance as the primary driver of all things - even in season 4 when she's been gone for a season already. The bits where a RTD detractor might think he's totally winging it totally are bits where he's winging it. That season actually contains two of his best scripts, Midnight and Right Turn, and he's noticably down on them compared with the big melodramatic barely-making-sense stuff.
And yet I did come out of reading it liking the gig a lot more and with more of an appreciation of what he was doing with the show. Other people have written vastly better episodes but I think the choices he's made setting the tone of the show have largely been good ones that have paid off.
(it helps that the book stops before the awful specials and neverendimg ego-wank goodbye episodes, of course.)
Also, as I say, I've been rewatching S1, and boy does it have some wonky moments - I'd say the show Has actually gotten a lot better as it's gone along.
posted by Artw at 3:12 AM on February 10, 2013
And yet I did come out of reading it liking the gig a lot more and with more of an appreciation of what he was doing with the show. Other people have written vastly better episodes but I think the choices he's made setting the tone of the show have largely been good ones that have paid off.
(it helps that the book stops before the awful specials and neverendimg ego-wank goodbye episodes, of course.)
Also, as I say, I've been rewatching S1, and boy does it have some wonky moments - I'd say the show Has actually gotten a lot better as it's gone along.
posted by Artw at 3:12 AM on February 10, 2013
Hattie Jacques? Come on. Fenella Fielding.
And Oregon and Vod from Fresh Meat can be the Doctor and companion. Either way round.
posted by Summer at 3:18 AM on February 10, 2013
And Oregon and Vod from Fresh Meat can be the Doctor and companion. Either way round.
posted by Summer at 3:18 AM on February 10, 2013
Did nobody else think it was a little unrealistic for the 4th Doctor to be simultaneously starring in another big show? I went and looked up Tom Baker to see if he'd actually done it, but I don't think he did - seems like an odd idea for them to put in.
posted by jacalata at 3:20 AM on February 10, 2013
posted by jacalata at 3:20 AM on February 10, 2013
The mere notion of Miranda Hart as the Doctor made it necessary for me to lie down with a cool damp towel across my forehead. Oh my.
Which is to say I harbor an unnatural fixation on Hart.
posted by sonascope at 3:28 AM on February 10, 2013
Which is to say I harbor an unnatural fixation on Hart.
posted by sonascope at 3:28 AM on February 10, 2013
I must confess that I tend to think that The Doctor is an almost unique role model with particular value to boys, particularly in the way that his heroism is couched in playfulness and eccentricity (the latter quality is one that is being mercilessly expunged from the modern world, often to be replaced with things like Aspergersness, which isn't so much a personality trait as a medical condition).
For me, growing up and (a little bit) even now, The Doctor represents a rare example of ways it is possible to aspire to being a better male person without necessarily shooting someone, being chisel-jawed and muscular and whilst retaining (and being a bit proud of) one's eccentricity. Swapping the gender would at best be saying that that aspiration was foolish and wrong.
Also, the people who are most enthusiastic about gender swapping the character are those who are building such high expectations that they will inevitably be disappointed.
The actors who have played the character have generally been of a certain type - recognisable character actors, or (recently) younger actors with a lot of buzz but not famous yet. Well-known, perhaps, but not famous. This is largely because the filming has always taken up so much time they had to give themselves over to it completely for a few years (the outlier is Christopher Eccleston, who only did one season with the regeneration an integral part of its denouement). It's simply not a job that Tilda Swinton is going to do.
And whilst I realise that this is just boring logistics, the history of the programme is equally that of the stories it tells and the often convoluted logistical and budgetary contortions that it has had to make, even in recent years as the BBC's number one show.
posted by Grangousier at 3:34 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
For me, growing up and (a little bit) even now, The Doctor represents a rare example of ways it is possible to aspire to being a better male person without necessarily shooting someone, being chisel-jawed and muscular and whilst retaining (and being a bit proud of) one's eccentricity. Swapping the gender would at best be saying that that aspiration was foolish and wrong.
Also, the people who are most enthusiastic about gender swapping the character are those who are building such high expectations that they will inevitably be disappointed.
The actors who have played the character have generally been of a certain type - recognisable character actors, or (recently) younger actors with a lot of buzz but not famous yet. Well-known, perhaps, but not famous. This is largely because the filming has always taken up so much time they had to give themselves over to it completely for a few years (the outlier is Christopher Eccleston, who only did one season with the regeneration an integral part of its denouement). It's simply not a job that Tilda Swinton is going to do.
And whilst I realise that this is just boring logistics, the history of the programme is equally that of the stories it tells and the often convoluted logistical and budgetary contortions that it has had to make, even in recent years as the BBC's number one show.
posted by Grangousier at 3:34 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's simply not a job that Tilda Swinton is going to do.
Heh. Well I never said that was a realistic pick...
posted by Artw at 3:40 AM on February 10, 2013
Heh. Well I never said that was a realistic pick...
posted by Artw at 3:40 AM on February 10, 2013
I was a bit disappinted to find that The Writers Tale focused on one season and a late season at that -
Because it was RTD flirts with a Pretty Young Thing.
I read TWT and I expected to hate it, but I didn't mind it, except for the fact that it was The TV Writer Stripped Bare.
I read TWT (Revised) expecting to hate it, and it did show some light on the compromises needed to get the show on the air, and why some decisions (The Doctor's mother, FOR FUCK'S SAKE) made no sense but were there.
Love Comes To Everyone ... I respect Jonathan Morris. He's done some good work with Big Finish (as I recall, I try to avoid the credits to go in blind), and some good novels. I have no idea why he hasn't written (or plotted) a TV script yet.
posted by Mezentian at 3:42 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Because it was RTD flirts with a Pretty Young Thing.
I read TWT and I expected to hate it, but I didn't mind it, except for the fact that it was The TV Writer Stripped Bare.
I read TWT (Revised) expecting to hate it, and it did show some light on the compromises needed to get the show on the air, and why some decisions (The Doctor's mother, FOR FUCK'S SAKE) made no sense but were there.
Love Comes To Everyone ... I respect Jonathan Morris. He's done some good work with Big Finish (as I recall, I try to avoid the credits to go in blind), and some good novels. I have no idea why he hasn't written (or plotted) a TV script yet.
posted by Mezentian at 3:42 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Swapping the gender would at best be saying that that aspiration was foolish and wrong.
Why?
posted by Summer at 3:47 AM on February 10, 2013
Why?
posted by Summer at 3:47 AM on February 10, 2013
I have no idea why he hasn't written (or plotted) a TV script yet.
...mutter mutter... If it meant one less Chibnall one... mutter mutter
posted by Artw at 3:53 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
...mutter mutter... If it meant one less Chibnall one... mutter mutter
posted by Artw at 3:53 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Chibnall hasn't written anything non-Torchwood that was "Fear Her" awful, and I suspect Fear Her was awful because it was a replacement script.
And the problem with Torchwood as is so clear is that they have no idea what to do with it.
Miracle Day was, for example, Chibnall-free.
posted by Mezentian at 4:25 AM on February 10, 2013
And the problem with Torchwood as is so clear is that they have no idea what to do with it.
Miracle Day was, for example, Chibnall-free.
posted by Mezentian at 4:25 AM on February 10, 2013
Swapping the gender would at best be saying that that aspiration was foolish and wrong.As Grangousier says "The Doctor represents a rare example of ways it is possible to aspire to being a better male person without necessarily shooting someone, being chisel-jawed and muscular and whilst retaining (and being a bit proud of) one's eccentricity."
Why?
I've just realised why I'm having difficulty explaining this and it's because my overriding emotion is "because it's ours goddamit" which is spectacularly dumb considering we are discussing a way of being a better male person. Privilege sucks.
Grangousier is right, us "different" boys need our Tom Baker and it would be a shame to have that taken away, although not as much of a shame as not having a Tom Baker to start with I assume.
Fuck it, let's join forces and make Tilda Swinton 007 instead.
posted by fullerine at 4:41 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
"Oh I do too, for most of it, but the ending of 'well, she still gets to live an eternity as a living fucktoy' struck me as a particularly egregious piece of RTD suckage"
I think that's an incredibly cynical interpretation of the ending. Yes, she was an immobile stone slab, and yes, as she made clear, they still had a love life, but I don't think it's fair to say that he was exploiting her in any way. She was a stone slab, and they still loved each other, so they continued to have (some sort of) sex as part of their couplehood. I definitely don't think their situation was intended as any sort of sex fantasy wish-fulfillment thing. (I think even the statue fetishists might draw the line at a big stone slab with a face on it.) Their romance would be bizarre and very un-sexy to most of us, but they were happy together and that was what mattered. He loved her, truly, for her mind, and it was a "love conquers all" ending.
I think I've written about this before on Metafilter, but the thing that made the ending really powerful to me (and the thing I feel like a lot of people missed) is that his little speech at the end is basically about being queer. All that stuff Ben says about how there's so much more to life than school-work-marriage-and-kids, his love for this girl who isn't a girl in the conventional sense and is instead made of hard, masculine stone (and the strong implication that they're enjoying oral sex,) it all seemed like pretty clear symbolism. RTD came up with a lovely little allegory for the potentials of queer life, how there's a whole other world out there, and it can be just as rich, if not richer, than the "normal" life society tells you you're supposed to want. (My girlfriend saw it as being about geekdom, and I suppose that works too, but I'd be kind of amazed if RTD didn't mean it as a queer thing.)
The Jesus Tinkerbell stuff was awesome too, with the sky ripping open and a gazillion little death robots raining down over the globe as the Master's wife is grooving to Rogue Traders. Davies always went all out, god love that strange little man.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:52 AM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think that's an incredibly cynical interpretation of the ending. Yes, she was an immobile stone slab, and yes, as she made clear, they still had a love life, but I don't think it's fair to say that he was exploiting her in any way. She was a stone slab, and they still loved each other, so they continued to have (some sort of) sex as part of their couplehood. I definitely don't think their situation was intended as any sort of sex fantasy wish-fulfillment thing. (I think even the statue fetishists might draw the line at a big stone slab with a face on it.) Their romance would be bizarre and very un-sexy to most of us, but they were happy together and that was what mattered. He loved her, truly, for her mind, and it was a "love conquers all" ending.
I think I've written about this before on Metafilter, but the thing that made the ending really powerful to me (and the thing I feel like a lot of people missed) is that his little speech at the end is basically about being queer. All that stuff Ben says about how there's so much more to life than school-work-marriage-and-kids, his love for this girl who isn't a girl in the conventional sense and is instead made of hard, masculine stone (and the strong implication that they're enjoying oral sex,) it all seemed like pretty clear symbolism. RTD came up with a lovely little allegory for the potentials of queer life, how there's a whole other world out there, and it can be just as rich, if not richer, than the "normal" life society tells you you're supposed to want. (My girlfriend saw it as being about geekdom, and I suppose that works too, but I'd be kind of amazed if RTD didn't mean it as a queer thing.)
The Jesus Tinkerbell stuff was awesome too, with the sky ripping open and a gazillion little death robots raining down over the globe as the Master's wife is grooving to Rogue Traders. Davies always went all out, god love that strange little man.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:52 AM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
(and the thing I feel like a lot of people missed) is that his little speech at the end is basically about being queer.
I think you may have missed the missed the Gay Agenda Wars.
(Also see the Moffatt-Hates-Gays Wars).
The Jesus Tinkerbell stuff was awesome too,
I am sure you are a nice person, and we might get on well, but you are so wrong (from my perspective).
Metafilter: a gazillion little death robots raining down over the globe as the Master's wife is grooving to Rogue Traders.
posted by Mezentian at 5:05 AM on February 10, 2013
I think you may have missed the missed the Gay Agenda Wars.
(Also see the Moffatt-Hates-Gays Wars).
The Jesus Tinkerbell stuff was awesome too,
I am sure you are a nice person, and we might get on well, but you are so wrong (from my perspective).
Metafilter: a gazillion little death robots raining down over the globe as the Master's wife is grooving to Rogue Traders.
posted by Mezentian at 5:05 AM on February 10, 2013
For me, growing up and (a little bit) even now, The Doctor represents a rare example of ways it is possible to aspire to being a better male person without necessarily shooting someone, being chisel-jawed and muscular and whilst retaining (and being a bit proud of) one's eccentricity. Swapping the gender would at best be saying that that aspiration was foolish and wrong.
No, it isn't -- it's saying that those of us with ovaries would have also have liked to see aspirational figures who used their brains and celebrated their eccentricity rather than figures who's purpose was often simply to look pretty and be the reward for the hero at the end.
Yes, I understand about the need for geeky male heros. And I don't know about the 60s, but the 70s and 80s were filled with them. Not only was there Spock in reruns (and Kirk usually saves the day with diplomacy not punches), but I grew up on Hawkeye being a witty pacifist, Macguyver saving the world with bubble gum and the whole ST:TNG set of Picard, Data, Geordi, etc being diplomats and scientists saving the universe. And how many female figures can you name like that from before 1990?
You actually got your aspirational geek heros. Let us imagine what it might have been like to just any female ones.
posted by jb at 6:51 AM on February 10, 2013 [12 favorites]
No, it isn't -- it's saying that those of us with ovaries would have also have liked to see aspirational figures who used their brains and celebrated their eccentricity rather than figures who's purpose was often simply to look pretty and be the reward for the hero at the end.
Yes, I understand about the need for geeky male heros. And I don't know about the 60s, but the 70s and 80s were filled with them. Not only was there Spock in reruns (and Kirk usually saves the day with diplomacy not punches), but I grew up on Hawkeye being a witty pacifist, Macguyver saving the world with bubble gum and the whole ST:TNG set of Picard, Data, Geordi, etc being diplomats and scientists saving the universe. And how many female figures can you name like that from before 1990?
You actually got your aspirational geek heros. Let us imagine what it might have been like to just any female ones.
posted by jb at 6:51 AM on February 10, 2013 [12 favorites]
my overriding emotion is "because it's ours goddamit"
Why is it yours exactly? Dr Who is one of the few sci fi series that I imagine has as many female fans as male, and as jb says we want something more than companions running round making doe eyes at the Doctor. Thanks.
posted by Summer at 7:17 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Why is it yours exactly? Dr Who is one of the few sci fi series that I imagine has as many female fans as male, and as jb says we want something more than companions running round making doe eyes at the Doctor. Thanks.
posted by Summer at 7:17 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Dr Who is one of the few sci fi series that I imagine has as many female fans as male
Now. That was not always the case.
There were dark, dark times.
I wonder if the BBC took gender soundings in its ratings back in the day, or if it was a case of Saturday Tea Time, dad calls the shots?
, and as jb says we want something more than companions running round making doe eyes at the Doctor. Thanks.
I am down with this.
posted by Mezentian at 7:33 AM on February 10, 2013
Now. That was not always the case.
There were dark, dark times.
I wonder if the BBC took gender soundings in its ratings back in the day, or if it was a case of Saturday Tea Time, dad calls the shots?
, and as jb says we want something more than companions running round making doe eyes at the Doctor. Thanks.
I am down with this.
posted by Mezentian at 7:33 AM on February 10, 2013
Now. That was not always the case.
There were dark, dark times.
I watched Dr Who from Patrick Troughton to Peter Davidson and it was always a tea time program for all kids. And even if it wasn't, 'it's ours' is still really out of order. It's as much 'mine' as it is 'yours'.
posted by Summer at 7:49 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
There were dark, dark times.
I watched Dr Who from Patrick Troughton to Peter Davidson and it was always a tea time program for all kids. And even if it wasn't, 'it's ours' is still really out of order. It's as much 'mine' as it is 'yours'.
posted by Summer at 7:49 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Watching NuWho with gender politics in mind actually frequently makes me long for Classic Who. When Four openly rags on Sarah Jane because she's a girl and can't get things done, it's to make her mad enough to stop being freaked out about being stuck in an air shaft and get herself out. The open sexism was there, but especially in the 70s, it was being kicked at.
We're now apparently theoretically living in a post-sexist period, but the Who girls are girls again, not women. Even if they're spunky and don't always scream, they're there in large part in reference to openly romantic relations with the Doctor, which is the worst single thing RTD did to the show IMO.
(And as a female fan from childhood, back in the days when the show drove PBS affiliates' fundraising, I don't really want a woman Doctor, but I sure would love a show about a Time Lady.)
posted by immlass at 7:57 AM on February 10, 2013
We're now apparently theoretically living in a post-sexist period, but the Who girls are girls again, not women. Even if they're spunky and don't always scream, they're there in large part in reference to openly romantic relations with the Doctor, which is the worst single thing RTD did to the show IMO.
(And as a female fan from childhood, back in the days when the show drove PBS affiliates' fundraising, I don't really want a woman Doctor, but I sure would love a show about a Time Lady.)
posted by immlass at 7:57 AM on February 10, 2013
Theoretically the sky ripping open and releasing millions of little deathbots, deathbots that are the horrific remnants of humanity from the end of time, should be metal as fuck and awesome. That is the sort of thing I am looking for, personally speaking. Tinkerbell Doctor and resolutions relying on the power of love much less so.
Also, re:my complaint earlier, the resolution to that one also relies on Martha getting to do a bunch of stuff but that's not important so we don't really see it.
posted by Artw at 9:17 AM on February 10, 2013
Also, re:my complaint earlier, the resolution to that one also relies on Martha getting to do a bunch of stuff but that's not important so we don't really see it.
posted by Artw at 9:17 AM on February 10, 2013
A change of show runner and Doctor is being predicted after the 50th anniversary. But when isn't it being predicted?
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on February 10, 2013
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on February 10, 2013
For Adventures in Time and Space Jessica Raine has been cast as Verity Lambert - someone who should be a hero to anyone who likes Who.
(My youngest is not named Verity purely because of her, but it didn't hurt.)
posted by Artw at 10:06 AM on February 10, 2013
(My youngest is not named Verity purely because of her, but it didn't hurt.)
posted by Artw at 10:06 AM on February 10, 2013
As Grangousier says "The Doctor represents a rare example of ways it is possible to aspire to being a better male person without necessarily shooting someone, being chisel-jawed and muscular and whilst retaining (and being a bit proud of) one's eccentricity."
But it isn't rare at all. British TV is historically loaded with such characters. When it comes to detectives for example, the shooty punchy type is very much in the minority. They're nearly always eccentric in some way and there's rarely a gun to be found.
What persuades me that a female Doctor would be entirely in order is those few minutes of the Comic Relief special The Curse of Fatal Death with Joanna Lumley. Comedy or no, you can't watch that and think it doesn't work.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:53 AM on February 10, 2013
But it isn't rare at all. British TV is historically loaded with such characters. When it comes to detectives for example, the shooty punchy type is very much in the minority. They're nearly always eccentric in some way and there's rarely a gun to be found.
What persuades me that a female Doctor would be entirely in order is those few minutes of the Comic Relief special The Curse of Fatal Death with Joanna Lumley. Comedy or no, you can't watch that and think it doesn't work.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:53 AM on February 10, 2013
Fuck it, let's join forces and make Tilda Swinton 007 instead.
Now I'm sitting here, having spit up all this fine beer I was drinking and I can't seem to make my mouth work again because of the sheer awesome power of this single idea.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:40 PM on February 10, 2013
Now I'm sitting here, having spit up all this fine beer I was drinking and I can't seem to make my mouth work again because of the sheer awesome power of this single idea.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:40 PM on February 10, 2013
Because we all know by now, right, that James Bond is a not a man, it's a code name.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:41 PM on February 10, 2013
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:41 PM on February 10, 2013
Fuck it, let's join forces and make Tilda Swinton 007 instead.
I don’t really know much about her, but that’s hard to see. She’s 6 years older than Daniel Craig who just did a movie about how James Bond is getting too old for the job and how he’s losing it.
posted by bongo_x at 6:04 PM on February 10, 2013
I don’t really know much about her, but that’s hard to see. She’s 6 years older than Daniel Craig who just did a movie about how James Bond is getting too old for the job and how he’s losing it.
posted by bongo_x at 6:04 PM on February 10, 2013
You have been reading Grant Morrison's recent Batman comics, yeah?
No, but I realize now that the Doctor's companion should be X-23. Mind you, the episodes would be pretty short, particularly once we discover that Dalek armor won't stop adamantium blades.
"EX-TER-MI-NATE!"
*snikt*
"EX-TER---GURK!"
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:09 PM on February 10, 2013
No, but I realize now that the Doctor's companion should be X-23. Mind you, the episodes would be pretty short, particularly once we discover that Dalek armor won't stop adamantium blades.
"EX-TER-MI-NATE!"
*snikt*
"EX-TER---GURK!"
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:09 PM on February 10, 2013
immlass: "they're there in large part in reference to openly romantic relations with the Doctor, which is the worst single thing RTD did to the show IMO."
That's my big criticism of RTD's Doctor Who episodes. In Torchwood it devolved into outright fucking. This wouldn't have been a show-killer on its own- Lexx had lots of sex in episodes, albeit largely for humorous effect- but hobbled by RTD's writing, it comes across as gross and prurient.
posted by dunkadunc at 7:19 PM on February 10, 2013
That's my big criticism of RTD's Doctor Who episodes. In Torchwood it devolved into outright fucking. This wouldn't have been a show-killer on its own- Lexx had lots of sex in episodes, albeit largely for humorous effect- but hobbled by RTD's writing, it comes across as gross and prurient.
posted by dunkadunc at 7:19 PM on February 10, 2013
You have been reading Grant Morrison's recent Batman comics, yeah?
No, but I realize now that the Doctor's companion should be X-23. Mind you, the episodes would be pretty short, particularly once we discover that Dalek armor won't stop adamantium blades.
Technically the Doctor IS part of the Marvel universe via Death's Head.
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
No, but I realize now that the Doctor's companion should be X-23. Mind you, the episodes would be pretty short, particularly once we discover that Dalek armor won't stop adamantium blades.
Technically the Doctor IS part of the Marvel universe via Death's Head.
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
I've never seen Toby Whithouse's Being Human, but he seems like a good choice.
posted by Mezentian at 3:45 AM on February 11, 2013
posted by Mezentian at 3:45 AM on February 11, 2013
Hrrm... The Doctor Who 50th anniversary will be in 3D and movie theaters, too
posted by Artw at 9:03 PM on February 11, 2013
posted by Artw at 9:03 PM on February 11, 2013
I'm with Team: What A Waste Of Money on that one.
I'd not see it at the flicks. If it made it here it's be a one off full of kids and the fandom menace.
But, you missed ICE WARRIORS. Straight outta 1970s.
posted by Mezentian at 3:09 AM on February 12, 2013
I'd not see it at the flicks. If it made it here it's be a one off full of kids and the fandom menace.
But, you missed ICE WARRIORS. Straight outta 1970s.
posted by Mezentian at 3:09 AM on February 12, 2013
I can think of no worse hell than watching a Moffat Who in a cinema full of yank Who fans, all given the opportunity to complain that it's not like the good old days of 2009 in real time.
posted by Artw at 7:35 AM on February 12, 2013
posted by Artw at 7:35 AM on February 12, 2013
Penelope Keith would have been brilliant - but I think Felicity Kendal would have been brilliant, too, and if the timing was right, perhaps it could have led to a few Tom Stoppard-penned guest scripts.
posted by kristi at 8:04 PM on February 12, 2013
posted by kristi at 8:04 PM on February 12, 2013
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posted by Artw at 12:55 PM on February 9, 2013 [22 favorites]