Sweet Truths with Kristine Holmgren
February 13, 2013 3:15 AM Subscribe
I told them to take a hike. I can't work where feminism is not celebrated. I'm proud to call myself a feminist. - Pastor and playwright Kristine Holmgren responds to being asked not use the word feminism in the title of her blog on a faith based site.
"But our readers are offended by feminism. And we can't risk offending our readers."
I truly cannot comprehend why someone would be offended by feminism. Feminism is not a personal attack or insult. It cannot yell degrading phrases about your mother or kick your dog, so what is so offensive about it?
posted by cyml at 3:34 AM on February 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
I truly cannot comprehend why someone would be offended by feminism. Feminism is not a personal attack or insult. It cannot yell degrading phrases about your mother or kick your dog, so what is so offensive about it?
posted by cyml at 3:34 AM on February 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
I had no idea that Beliefnet's readership skewed toward ignorant, uptight, ditto-heads.
posted by hwestiii at 3:42 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by hwestiii at 3:42 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Feminism has been very, very successfully reframed as the method by which misandrist women are emasculating and disenfranchising men, and taking advantage of a system bent in their favor. Been to Reddit lately?
posted by to sir with millipedes at 4:01 AM on February 13, 2013 [24 favorites]
posted by to sir with millipedes at 4:01 AM on February 13, 2013 [24 favorites]
>It cannot yell degrading phrases about your mother or kick your dog, so what is so offensive about it?
I believe the reason is something like "because it is an attempt to subvert the natural male & female roles, as instituted by God".
posted by kcds at 4:01 AM on February 13, 2013
I believe the reason is something like "because it is an attempt to subvert the natural male & female roles, as instituted by God".
posted by kcds at 4:01 AM on February 13, 2013
I truly cannot comprehend why someone would be offended by feminism.
It's change that is upsetting the status quo. Of course people are going to be offended and threatened by it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:22 AM on February 13, 2013
It's change that is upsetting the status quo. Of course people are going to be offended and threatened by it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:22 AM on February 13, 2013
Hm, according to Wikipedia Beliefnet is owned by something called BN media, which bought it from Fox/Newscorp.
Apparently BN media also owns a company called Affinity4, which raises funds for organisations including Promise Keepers ("NOW alleges that the group encourages inequality within marriages and teaches a doctrine of male superiority"), The American Center for Law & Justice ("founded in 1990 by attorney and evangelical minister Pat Robertson, generally pursues Constitutional issues and conservative Christian ideals in courts of law"..."has also filed lawsuits against Planned Parenthood of Los Angeles") and Feed the Children ("Based on the rating criteria of the American Institute of Philanthropy, Feed The Children receives an "F" rating for financial efficiency for spending only 21-23 percent of its cash budget on charitable programs").
"Sweet Truths with Kristine Holmgren" is pretty funny, though.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 4:29 AM on February 13, 2013 [15 favorites]
Apparently BN media also owns a company called Affinity4, which raises funds for organisations including Promise Keepers ("NOW alleges that the group encourages inequality within marriages and teaches a doctrine of male superiority"), The American Center for Law & Justice ("founded in 1990 by attorney and evangelical minister Pat Robertson, generally pursues Constitutional issues and conservative Christian ideals in courts of law"..."has also filed lawsuits against Planned Parenthood of Los Angeles") and Feed the Children ("Based on the rating criteria of the American Institute of Philanthropy, Feed The Children receives an "F" rating for financial efficiency for spending only 21-23 percent of its cash budget on charitable programs").
"Sweet Truths with Kristine Holmgren" is pretty funny, though.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 4:29 AM on February 13, 2013 [15 favorites]
Oh yeah, it looks like I left out Focus on the Family and the NRA.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 4:42 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 4:42 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
So, I had a college English professor who sort of re-purposed our required freshman English class. I remember we read "The Chalice and the Blade," which is sort of a matriarchal revisionist history of the western world (my history professor tactfully implied that we shouldn't take it too seriously.) And we watched Thelma and Louise, and spent ninety minutes the next class period discussing the way the camera sexualizes Brad Pitt in traditionally feminine ways. We read a one-act play about the Salem Witch Trials and short stories about abused and murdered women. We discussed the differences between the writing styles of male and female authors and the merits of the "m-dash," and the opressive and arbitrary nature of traditional grammarians' prohibition against run-on sentences.
I gave in to my "Devil's Advocate" tendencies a few times and argued with her -- she did not respond with academic detachment, but seemed personally offended. She gave me a lower grade than I felt I deserved on a short story, which, admittedly, was about a sincerely believing nun.
Now, I am a feminist. I'm a working PhD physicist and a mother of two girls, and prickly as hell about being told I can't do something (anything) because I'm a woman, or that my daughters can't do whatever they want.
But, giving in to my Devil's advocate tendencies again here... I kind of understand the negative reactions by some people to the word "feminist." There is or was a strain of feminism (especially in academia, I think) which I am tempted to call "fundamentalist feminism," because of the fervor with which its adherents profess it, their feelings of persecution and martyrdom in a fallen world, and the lack of respect for traditional scholarship. It is off-putting in the same way that being told by a religious fundamentalist that you are going to hell is off-putting. A lot of times talking to people like that professor makes you feel like they are calling you sexist however good your intentions might be, because you happen to like some of that terribly terribly sexist culture they are condemning. (Should I reject Heinlein and Asimov and all their works, for instance? I mean, I know they were both hilariously sexist in their own ways, but does buying their books make me Part of the Problem?)
I tend to think that people like that professor give "feminism" its negative connotation, in the same way as, say, Pat Robertson gives "Evangelical" a negative connotation for me. I'm not totally shocked when people don't want to be associated with that label. But I'm glad people like Holmgren and, say, Caitlin Moran are working to reclaim it.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:54 AM on February 13, 2013 [10 favorites]
I gave in to my "Devil's Advocate" tendencies a few times and argued with her -- she did not respond with academic detachment, but seemed personally offended. She gave me a lower grade than I felt I deserved on a short story, which, admittedly, was about a sincerely believing nun.
Now, I am a feminist. I'm a working PhD physicist and a mother of two girls, and prickly as hell about being told I can't do something (anything) because I'm a woman, or that my daughters can't do whatever they want.
But, giving in to my Devil's advocate tendencies again here... I kind of understand the negative reactions by some people to the word "feminist." There is or was a strain of feminism (especially in academia, I think) which I am tempted to call "fundamentalist feminism," because of the fervor with which its adherents profess it, their feelings of persecution and martyrdom in a fallen world, and the lack of respect for traditional scholarship. It is off-putting in the same way that being told by a religious fundamentalist that you are going to hell is off-putting. A lot of times talking to people like that professor makes you feel like they are calling you sexist however good your intentions might be, because you happen to like some of that terribly terribly sexist culture they are condemning. (Should I reject Heinlein and Asimov and all their works, for instance? I mean, I know they were both hilariously sexist in their own ways, but does buying their books make me Part of the Problem?)
I tend to think that people like that professor give "feminism" its negative connotation, in the same way as, say, Pat Robertson gives "Evangelical" a negative connotation for me. I'm not totally shocked when people don't want to be associated with that label. But I'm glad people like Holmgren and, say, Caitlin Moran are working to reclaim it.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:54 AM on February 13, 2013 [10 favorites]
our readers are offended by feminism.
Fred Clark at Slacktivist has a long-running series of posts on the Evangelical addiction to umbrage. On offendedness:
"Offendedness is a pale, watery substitute for anger. Anger, that beautiful daughter of hope, demands action. Anger changes things. It seeks to correct the injustice that offendedness merely wants to savor."
Let's not be offended that we can't even label ourselves accurately without self-righteous posturing from smug bigots. Let's get angry.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:56 AM on February 13, 2013 [20 favorites]
Fred Clark at Slacktivist has a long-running series of posts on the Evangelical addiction to umbrage. On offendedness:
"Offendedness is a pale, watery substitute for anger. Anger, that beautiful daughter of hope, demands action. Anger changes things. It seeks to correct the injustice that offendedness merely wants to savor."
Let's not be offended that we can't even label ourselves accurately without self-righteous posturing from smug bigots. Let's get angry.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:56 AM on February 13, 2013 [20 favorites]
The other side to this coin is that the symbols and icons of feminism that the moderate left foists upon us are upper-echelon white women who are successful at their work and really just desire some amount of workplace feminism. Not that there's anything wrong with this but Dissent's most recent quarterly had this article by Sarah Jaffe that argues that if you focus on the glass ceiling, you end up undercutting a vast swath of women in underpaid, overworked care work and other lower level jobs. If feminism is pushing for the equality and rights of all women then only turning to white, liberalish sources for their white, liberalish icons turns a blind eye to the other issues.
posted by dubusadus at 5:02 AM on February 13, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by dubusadus at 5:02 AM on February 13, 2013 [9 favorites]
It's change that is upsetting the status quo. Of course people are going to be offended and threatened by it.
I understand this but I don't think anyone can legitimately claim change is offensive to them, especially if it does not really affect them negatively. Feminism is a lot of things, but it is inherently about equality for everyone. I don't see how that hurts anyone at all so calling it offensive is merely an easy way out. When someone uses the word offensive in contexts like this, they are refusing to talk about it by accusing the other side of being rude.
Being offended is one thing - being scared is another and I think if these people are scared of feminism, they should straight up say it, instead of hiding behind this shield of 'this hurts my feelings so let's not talk about it anymore.'
posted by cyml at 5:13 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
I understand this but I don't think anyone can legitimately claim change is offensive to them, especially if it does not really affect them negatively. Feminism is a lot of things, but it is inherently about equality for everyone. I don't see how that hurts anyone at all so calling it offensive is merely an easy way out. When someone uses the word offensive in contexts like this, they are refusing to talk about it by accusing the other side of being rude.
Being offended is one thing - being scared is another and I think if these people are scared of feminism, they should straight up say it, instead of hiding behind this shield of 'this hurts my feelings so let's not talk about it anymore.'
posted by cyml at 5:13 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
It is off-putting in the same way that being told by a religious fundamentalist that you are going to hell is off-putting.
Not quite, but is off-putting to be told that there is only one acceptable way to live your life.
And I remember when all girls were expected to find a good guy, marry after high school, take their husbands' names, get pregnant and disappear. But my generation of women had other plans for our futures. We were not about to march, lockstep, into motherhood. Nor would we settle for the dead-end, low-paying jobs our older sisters hated and suffered.
There is no room at the feminist inn for women who choose this way of life. At best, feminism dismisses them, at worst it derides them as losers marching lockstep. If you are not pursing a career like a man, then you are nothing.
Feminism is as modern as bell-bottom pants. The new fashion is gender equality and it's one size fits all. In a gender neutral world, men share the responsibility for raising children and keeping house so all those other inequalities that arise from the burden of family can sort themselves out.
posted by three blind mice at 5:14 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not quite, but is off-putting to be told that there is only one acceptable way to live your life.
And I remember when all girls were expected to find a good guy, marry after high school, take their husbands' names, get pregnant and disappear. But my generation of women had other plans for our futures. We were not about to march, lockstep, into motherhood. Nor would we settle for the dead-end, low-paying jobs our older sisters hated and suffered.
There is no room at the feminist inn for women who choose this way of life. At best, feminism dismisses them, at worst it derides them as losers marching lockstep. If you are not pursing a career like a man, then you are nothing.
Feminism is as modern as bell-bottom pants. The new fashion is gender equality and it's one size fits all. In a gender neutral world, men share the responsibility for raising children and keeping house so all those other inequalities that arise from the burden of family can sort themselves out.
posted by three blind mice at 5:14 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
At best, feminism dismisses them, at worst it derides them as losers marching lockstep. If you are not pursing a career like a man, then you are nothing.
A straw woman does the same job as a straw man, but for less pay.
posted by dubold at 5:34 AM on February 13, 2013 [78 favorites]
A straw woman does the same job as a straw man, but for less pay.
posted by dubold at 5:34 AM on February 13, 2013 [78 favorites]
Beliefnet used to be a pretty decent site, but these days it's mostly dieting tips with a thin veneer of either generic spirituality or conservative Christianity depending on where exactly on the site you are.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:35 AM on February 13, 2013
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:35 AM on February 13, 2013
I understand this but I don't think anyone can legitimately claim change is offensive to them, especially if it does not really affect them negatively.
Hey, no one said all of this had to make sense!
Perception is reality, so if they feel offended, they are offended. Doesn't mean they're objectively right, though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:35 AM on February 13, 2013
Hey, no one said all of this had to make sense!
Perception is reality, so if they feel offended, they are offended. Doesn't mean they're objectively right, though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:35 AM on February 13, 2013
Like "atheist," "welfare," "union," "urban," "liberal," and even "Unitarian," the conservative movement has managed to poison "feminism" with negative connotations in the minds of most Americans. You can either keep using the word and accept that it will conjure up hordes of unshaven hippy girls on the minds of your readers, or switch to a new word like "gender equality." It's not a good thing but it's not the fault of some random web site.
posted by miyabo at 5:49 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by miyabo at 5:49 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
There is no room at the feminist inn for women who choose this way of life. At best, feminism dismisses them, at worst it derides them as losers marching lockstep. If you are not pursing a career like a man, then you are nothing.
Speaking as a feminist, let me tell you that you couldn't be more wrong about that assumption.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:50 AM on February 13, 2013 [28 favorites]
Speaking as a feminist, let me tell you that you couldn't be more wrong about that assumption.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:50 AM on February 13, 2013 [28 favorites]
Heh, to be fair, it's not like most Americans of the conservative bent will go for "gender equality" either.
posted by Kitteh at 5:51 AM on February 13, 2013
posted by Kitteh at 5:51 AM on February 13, 2013
threeblindmice, have you actually talked to any feminists in the last 20-30 years? Or visited any feminist forum. blogs, websites? My guess is you've been listening to the same outside sources that have made "feminism" a bad word. Try taking a listen to what we are really saying, and not what our enemies are saying about us.
posted by pbrim at 5:58 AM on February 13, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by pbrim at 5:58 AM on February 13, 2013 [10 favorites]
I don't think anyone can legitimately claim change is offensive to them
It's important to realize that they're LARPing. They want to think of themselves as brave heroes standing against the forces of evil. That fantasy justifies feeling righteous indignation,and righteous indignation is fun. It's a rush. It's addictive.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 6:00 AM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
It's important to realize that they're LARPing. They want to think of themselves as brave heroes standing against the forces of evil. That fantasy justifies feeling righteous indignation,and righteous indignation is fun. It's a rush. It's addictive.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 6:00 AM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
There is no room at the feminist inn for women who choose this way of life.
I think you're thinking of the straw feminist inn.
posted by clavicle at 6:10 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
I think you're thinking of the straw feminist inn.
posted by clavicle at 6:10 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
threeblindmice, have you actually talked to any feminists in the last 20-30 years? Or visited any feminist forum. blogs, websites? My guess is you've been listening to the same outside sources that have made "feminism" a bad word.
Better yet, there was always support of "traditionally women's stuff" among feminists even during the 60's and 70's. Yes, you did have the people who were indeed doing the whole "fuck this I don't want to be anyone's mommy" thing, but then you also had a strong argument that this "traditional" women's work shouldn't be shunned or considered "lesser" just because it was women's work. You know - "dammit, my quilts are just as much a form of artistic expression as Mondrian's paintings, and the only reason you think otherwise is because it's 'women's work' and that's bullshit." There has always been a feminist perspective that motherhood and traditionally-womens-work should be supported.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:11 AM on February 13, 2013 [17 favorites]
Better yet, there was always support of "traditionally women's stuff" among feminists even during the 60's and 70's. Yes, you did have the people who were indeed doing the whole "fuck this I don't want to be anyone's mommy" thing, but then you also had a strong argument that this "traditional" women's work shouldn't be shunned or considered "lesser" just because it was women's work. You know - "dammit, my quilts are just as much a form of artistic expression as Mondrian's paintings, and the only reason you think otherwise is because it's 'women's work' and that's bullshit." There has always been a feminist perspective that motherhood and traditionally-womens-work should be supported.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:11 AM on February 13, 2013 [17 favorites]
People, the drive-by is complete. You're arguing with dust.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 6:15 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 6:15 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
People, the drive-by is complete. You're arguing with dust.
But the silent bystanders are hearing this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 AM on February 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
But the silent bystanders are hearing this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 AM on February 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
Feminism is gender equality.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:47 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 6:47 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
have you actually talked to any feminists in the last 20-30 years? Or visited any feminist forum. blogs, websites?
God, no, don't do this. Feminist internet spaces can be just as full of terrible people using their anonymity to say whatever ridiculous and abhorrent thing crosses their mind as non-feminist internet spaces. The last thing I'd do to give someone an accurate, healthy view of feminism is send them to feminist blogs and forums.
Get off the internet -- it'll give you fucked up and skewed ideas about everything. Talking to smart, compassionate feminists in real life is the key (per the first part of your comment).
posted by Amanojaku at 6:51 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
God, no, don't do this. Feminist internet spaces can be just as full of terrible people using their anonymity to say whatever ridiculous and abhorrent thing crosses their mind as non-feminist internet spaces. The last thing I'd do to give someone an accurate, healthy view of feminism is send them to feminist blogs and forums.
Get off the internet -- it'll give you fucked up and skewed ideas about everything. Talking to smart, compassionate feminists in real life is the key (per the first part of your comment).
posted by Amanojaku at 6:51 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
Liked the article. Still shocked in this day and age that people can say honestly they aren't feminists. It stuns me to find out when people don't believe in my equality to a man.
posted by agregoli at 7:11 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 7:11 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
I thought the article was good too. I'm glad she told them to take a hike. I found their comment, "(We're) concerned about the negative connotation that our readers may associate with the word. We'll want this blog to focus more on Christianity/spirituality as opposed to issues related to feminism" rather interesting.
Why couldn't there be an intersection of the two? They seem to only want to tell their readers what they want to hear instead of sharing other perspectives and viewpoints, in which case, what's the point. But also, aren't they already familiar with her work given that they invited her to blog for them? Fearing the word 'feminist' makes them look ridiculous and pretty ignorant.
posted by shoesietart at 7:45 AM on February 13, 2013
Why couldn't there be an intersection of the two? They seem to only want to tell their readers what they want to hear instead of sharing other perspectives and viewpoints, in which case, what's the point. But also, aren't they already familiar with her work given that they invited her to blog for them? Fearing the word 'feminist' makes them look ridiculous and pretty ignorant.
posted by shoesietart at 7:45 AM on February 13, 2013
It's interesting that they've managed to make "feminism" a bad word, but consider that they've done the same with "humanism". Humanism in the West arose directly out of the Christian tradition. The teachings of Jesus are, by and large, humanist, and stress the value of other people. That's not to say that Christianity is uniformly humanist (especially the original sin bits...) but it is easy to see how humanism could arise naturally out of Christianity.
And yet, many modern Christian cannot say "humanist" without spitting. Many Christians are genuinely opposed to (their straw man view of) "humanism" which is they describe as some sort of man-worship. But in a sense, it is just their own religion, distilled. Bizarre indeed. They can take any good concept, whether humanism, feminism, pacifism, and no matter how compatible it is with their own religion, twist it into something to despise.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 8:08 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
And yet, many modern Christian cannot say "humanist" without spitting. Many Christians are genuinely opposed to (their straw man view of) "humanism" which is they describe as some sort of man-worship. But in a sense, it is just their own religion, distilled. Bizarre indeed. They can take any good concept, whether humanism, feminism, pacifism, and no matter how compatible it is with their own religion, twist it into something to despise.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 8:08 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
God, no, don't do this. Feminist internet spaces can be just as full of terrible people using their anonymity to say whatever ridiculous and abhorrent thing crosses their mind as non-feminist internet spaces. The last thing I'd do to give someone an accurate, healthy view of feminism is send them to feminist blogs and forums.
Get off the internet -- it'll give you fucked up and skewed ideas about everything. Talking to smart, compassionate feminists in real life is the key (per the first part of your comment).
Aren't we talking about a feminist blog, by Ps. Holmgren? If we should dismiss all feminist blogs as useless, then should we not dismiss hers? But that seems silly. Would you unilaterally dismiss Holmgren's blog as a source for anything feminist? It seems to me instead that there are sources, blogs, books and news, which can help and sources, blogs, books and news, which can hurt enormously, and choosing among them is not a trivial task.
Is is not also possible to meet someone like OnceUponATime's old professor in real life, smart as hell but uncompassionate (according to OnceUponATime's telling)? Of course, there are smart, compassionate feminists in real life, but finding smart, compassionate people in general is not a trivial task. Many people live in states of isolation because they can't find smart, compassionate people in any way.
So imagine the humbled men's rights activist, who realizes the foolishness and misdirected anger at the center of men's rights construed as the destruction of feminism. What does he do to get information? I don't think it's a trivial task.
posted by curuinor at 8:44 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Get off the internet -- it'll give you fucked up and skewed ideas about everything. Talking to smart, compassionate feminists in real life is the key (per the first part of your comment).
Aren't we talking about a feminist blog, by Ps. Holmgren? If we should dismiss all feminist blogs as useless, then should we not dismiss hers? But that seems silly. Would you unilaterally dismiss Holmgren's blog as a source for anything feminist? It seems to me instead that there are sources, blogs, books and news, which can help and sources, blogs, books and news, which can hurt enormously, and choosing among them is not a trivial task.
Is is not also possible to meet someone like OnceUponATime's old professor in real life, smart as hell but uncompassionate (according to OnceUponATime's telling)? Of course, there are smart, compassionate feminists in real life, but finding smart, compassionate people in general is not a trivial task. Many people live in states of isolation because they can't find smart, compassionate people in any way.
So imagine the humbled men's rights activist, who realizes the foolishness and misdirected anger at the center of men's rights construed as the destruction of feminism. What does he do to get information? I don't think it's a trivial task.
posted by curuinor at 8:44 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
What does he do to get information?
He could, say, do a web search for "feminism 101."
posted by asperity at 9:35 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
He could, say, do a web search for "feminism 101."
posted by asperity at 9:35 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
So imagine the humbled men's rights activist, who realizes the foolishness and misdirected anger at the center of men's rights construed as the destruction of feminism. What does he do to get information?
"Hey [sister/girlfriend/good friend/mother/cousin/grandma/classmate/friendly person], are you a feminist? I don't know much about it, but I'd like hear your thoughts. Maybe later I'll go to a librarian or a professor or a women's center and ask for some recommendations for things to read, but right now I'd just like to hear your thoughts and the thoughts of other feminists. Thanks for your time!"
posted by librarylis at 9:51 AM on February 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
"Hey [sister/girlfriend/good friend/mother/cousin/grandma/classmate/friendly person], are you a feminist? I don't know much about it, but I'd like hear your thoughts. Maybe later I'll go to a librarian or a professor or a women's center and ask for some recommendations for things to read, but right now I'd just like to hear your thoughts and the thoughts of other feminists. Thanks for your time!"
posted by librarylis at 9:51 AM on February 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
> There is no room at the feminist inn for women who choose this way of life. At best, feminism dismisses them, at worst it derides them as losers marching lockstep. If you are not pursing a career like a man, then you are nothing.
Do you not understand what "lockstep" means? It's the opposite of choice. It is being forced to walk at a designated pace in a single-file path which is kept as narrowly as physically possible. Generally enforced by metal shackles.
She's not objecting to choosing marriage and motherhood and jobs that are not financially lucrative.
The objection is that women have been socially and legally compelled to narrow their own expectations for their lives into a narrowly-defined pathway -- solely based on the fact of their sex -- regardless of their own interests, abilities, and even financial means.
And I don't know what you mean by "pursuing a career like a man."
posted by desuetude at 11:08 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
Do you not understand what "lockstep" means? It's the opposite of choice. It is being forced to walk at a designated pace in a single-file path which is kept as narrowly as physically possible. Generally enforced by metal shackles.
She's not objecting to choosing marriage and motherhood and jobs that are not financially lucrative.
The objection is that women have been socially and legally compelled to narrow their own expectations for their lives into a narrowly-defined pathway -- solely based on the fact of their sex -- regardless of their own interests, abilities, and even financial means.
And I don't know what you mean by "pursuing a career like a man."
posted by desuetude at 11:08 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
Here's someone who wanted to be an honest broker and talk about feminism in her role as an ordained minister, and who was denied that opportunity.
dubusadus makes the good point that there are some communities that reject the term "feminism" because of an accurate (it seems to me) perception that academic feminism and some large feminist activist groups have, in North America at least, done poorly at intersectionality and have overemphasized the importance of high-achieving, privileged women breaking "glass ceilings".
However, that isn't why the Reverend Ms. Holmgren wasn't allowed to use the word "feminism" at Beliefnet. I appreciate her sharing that experience.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:22 PM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
dubusadus makes the good point that there are some communities that reject the term "feminism" because of an accurate (it seems to me) perception that academic feminism and some large feminist activist groups have, in North America at least, done poorly at intersectionality and have overemphasized the importance of high-achieving, privileged women breaking "glass ceilings".
However, that isn't why the Reverend Ms. Holmgren wasn't allowed to use the word "feminism" at Beliefnet. I appreciate her sharing that experience.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:22 PM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
Feminism has been very, very successfully reframed as the method by which misandrist women are emasculating and disenfranchising men, and taking advantage of a system bent in their favor.
Reframed? That's been the hackneyed stance of people hostile to women's press for equality since Lizzie C. Stanton's days. Let's not give credit for original thought where none is due.
Somewhat related: there was a huge flap on Twitter yesterday with regard to what was for a while a top trending hashtag, #tellafeministthankyou. It was started in sincerity but ended up drawing 3 trollish factions: 1) "make me a sandwich" jokesters seeking to offend, 2) MRA sorts blaming feminists for their perceived lack of freedoms and 3) people saying they were "for equal rights" but rejecting the term "feminist," with no understanding of the dialogue about those terms. It was a sad moment but one in which I realized that there are very few, if any, new ideas in the world of antifeminism. Just gotta keep on keeping on.
posted by Miko at 1:26 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Reframed? That's been the hackneyed stance of people hostile to women's press for equality since Lizzie C. Stanton's days. Let's not give credit for original thought where none is due.
Somewhat related: there was a huge flap on Twitter yesterday with regard to what was for a while a top trending hashtag, #tellafeministthankyou. It was started in sincerity but ended up drawing 3 trollish factions: 1) "make me a sandwich" jokesters seeking to offend, 2) MRA sorts blaming feminists for their perceived lack of freedoms and 3) people saying they were "for equal rights" but rejecting the term "feminist," with no understanding of the dialogue about those terms. It was a sad moment but one in which I realized that there are very few, if any, new ideas in the world of antifeminism. Just gotta keep on keeping on.
posted by Miko at 1:26 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
From the other side, however, I think it is permissible to wonder whether any religion built upon bedrock of a Holy Trinity consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, where the Holy Ghost is simply indistinguishable from the Father's semen, in that it enters Mary and gives rise to the Son with no contribution from Her beyond that she, miraculously, fails to pollute Him, clearly as a faintly ludicrous substitute (an attempt is made to compensate for the absurdity by naming blasphemy against the Holy Ghost the only unforgivable sin) for the reasonable, obvious and really unavoidable trinity of Mother, Child, and Father, can ever, by any means, be made compatible with any but the weakest of excuses for feminism.
posted by jamjam at 1:39 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 1:39 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Good for her.
I have heard nothing but bad about the management of Beliefnet, and all the blogs I read on there, well....the posters have left in droves, and total disgust.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:40 PM on February 13, 2013
I have heard nothing but bad about the management of Beliefnet, and all the blogs I read on there, well....the posters have left in droves, and total disgust.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:40 PM on February 13, 2013
It used to have a lot of promise, Beliefnet, back in the early days.
posted by Miko at 2:47 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 2:47 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
people saying they were "for equal rights" but rejecting the term "feminist," with no understanding of the dialogue about those terms.
Interestingly, I hear this A LOT from young people these days. They are 100% behind equal pay for equal work, women having the same opportunities as men, and women choosing what to do with their bodies, but they will tell you, very strongly and with a shudder, that they aren't feminists.
I know that academic feminist activists may find their rejecting the term feminist laughable, or dismiss them as not being educated because of this.
I really think, though, that a better approach would be to try to determine why the word feminist has such a negative connotation with people outside the feminist bastions, in the population at large, and work on that. There is very much a disconnect, and it isn't all insecure old white guys threatened by strong women, or make-me-a-sandwich bros. Those are just convenient strawmen.
There are young women and young men turning away from feminism because they see the movement as polarizing rather than inclusive, an "us against them" rather than an "all for one and one for all" platform. You can just dismiss them--but standing on that platform and looking down on them while insisting that everything they feel is wrong and that they need to be educated in "Feminism 101" is just pushing your would-be allies further away.
That "no understanding of the dialogue about those terms" goes both ways, is all I am saying.
posted by misha at 4:36 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Interestingly, I hear this A LOT from young people these days. They are 100% behind equal pay for equal work, women having the same opportunities as men, and women choosing what to do with their bodies, but they will tell you, very strongly and with a shudder, that they aren't feminists.
I know that academic feminist activists may find their rejecting the term feminist laughable, or dismiss them as not being educated because of this.
I really think, though, that a better approach would be to try to determine why the word feminist has such a negative connotation with people outside the feminist bastions, in the population at large, and work on that. There is very much a disconnect, and it isn't all insecure old white guys threatened by strong women, or make-me-a-sandwich bros. Those are just convenient strawmen.
There are young women and young men turning away from feminism because they see the movement as polarizing rather than inclusive, an "us against them" rather than an "all for one and one for all" platform. You can just dismiss them--but standing on that platform and looking down on them while insisting that everything they feel is wrong and that they need to be educated in "Feminism 101" is just pushing your would-be allies further away.
That "no understanding of the dialogue about those terms" goes both ways, is all I am saying.
posted by misha at 4:36 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
I really think, though, that a better approach would be to try to determine why the word feminist has such a negative connotation with people outside the feminist bastions
Rush Limbaugh has a lot to do with it.
posted by shakespeherian at 4:46 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Rush Limbaugh has a lot to do with it.
posted by shakespeherian at 4:46 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
There's nothing much new about that, either. 20ish years ago when I was in college, feminists were voicing concern about the number of young women that didn't want to identify with the term. It was a lively part of the discussion that demarcated the 2nd wave/3rd wave line.
posted by Miko at 5:12 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 5:12 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
"Gender equality" and "egalitarianism, not feminism" are the phrasings preferred by Men's Rights activists and others of their ilk.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:25 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:25 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
the Holy Ghost is simply indistinguishable from the Father's semen
Splendidly nasty, but not the way I usually read it.
The book of Proverbs introduces us to a female character who is the personification of wisdom. She describes herself to us in the first person. This character Wisdom tells us that she is eternal and that she was present before creation, with a suggestion that creation was only possible because she was present. She describes herself as being together with God "as one brought up with him." YHWH's sister?
Many people identify Wisdom and the Holy Spirit, which would mean that the Holy Spirit is female. That's not me trying to put a nice feminist spin on things. If the being described in Proverbs 8 is not the Holy Spirit then it would seem that the Trinity has a fourth member.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:10 PM on February 13, 2013
Splendidly nasty, but not the way I usually read it.
The book of Proverbs introduces us to a female character who is the personification of wisdom. She describes herself to us in the first person. This character Wisdom tells us that she is eternal and that she was present before creation, with a suggestion that creation was only possible because she was present. She describes herself as being together with God "as one brought up with him." YHWH's sister?
Many people identify Wisdom and the Holy Spirit, which would mean that the Holy Spirit is female. That's not me trying to put a nice feminist spin on things. If the being described in Proverbs 8 is not the Holy Spirit then it would seem that the Trinity has a fourth member.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:10 PM on February 13, 2013
It’s time for women to take back the word ‘feminism’
posted by homunculus at 5:13 PM on February 14, 2013
posted by homunculus at 5:13 PM on February 14, 2013
Personally, I find the term "Sweet Truths" far more gag-inducing than feminism, FWIW.
shakes, Rush Limbaugh has done a lot of harm with his feminazi bs, but Miko's right, the conflict over feminism as a movement has been ongoing pretty much since the term was coined.
In my experience, though, 3rd wave feminism (those are also non-intrusive terms, the various waves of feminism we all cite) is especially alienating. Some prominent minority women complain that 3rd wave feminism seems more geared to "white, middle-class women's issues," though I doubt white feminists would agree with that assessment.
For myself, I think the problem is more one of public perception, or misperception, as I've noticed with the college crowd I mentioned above.
Generally, the public at large mostly hears from/about feminists when they are opposing or criticizing something. When what's being criticized is clearly offensive, like 'legitimate rape', righteous outrage spreads like wildfire. But even the majority taking up the call don't consider themselves feminists.
I feel this is at least partly attributable to the prevailing "all or nothing" slant to the feminist debate; if you don't agree with all the tenets, then you are not a feminist and need to be educated in Feminism 101, etc.
When I was a kid, we all knew the feverishly impassioned, fanatically fervent people you could get a heated response from simply by poking fun at their latest cause celebre. I never engaged in the baiting myself, but I'd always groan inwardly as, no matter how transparently absurd the provocation, they'd always rise to the bait. These days, those are the people that trolls love to prey on--and those people are rarely taken any more seriously than the trolls themselves, no matter how worthy their cause may be.
Nit-picking and bitterness by a select few who seem more concerned with stirring up controversy, picking fights and getting revenge for past wrongs (many of which they haven't even endured themselves!) frustrates me. I see these interactions driving away would-be allies and drowning out the voices of the feminists I want to hear from, on significant issues we can all get behind, like reproductive rights and equal protections under the law.
Feminism, of course, is much more than just critical essays on women's blogs and academic debates. Encouragement and support for women all over the world (including legal and financial help, STEM scholarships, even women mentoring other women in the workplace)--these are all crucial to the feminist movement, and they are not nearly as well publicized to the public at large than the inflammatory rhetoric, because they don't garner high ratings or generate page views.
Unfortunately, as we've seen, when an attempt is made to change public perception, like the Twitter #thankafeminist drive, the haters come out full force.
It's frustrating.
posted by misha at 12:34 PM on February 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
shakes, Rush Limbaugh has done a lot of harm with his feminazi bs, but Miko's right, the conflict over feminism as a movement has been ongoing pretty much since the term was coined.
In my experience, though, 3rd wave feminism (those are also non-intrusive terms, the various waves of feminism we all cite) is especially alienating. Some prominent minority women complain that 3rd wave feminism seems more geared to "white, middle-class women's issues," though I doubt white feminists would agree with that assessment.
For myself, I think the problem is more one of public perception, or misperception, as I've noticed with the college crowd I mentioned above.
Generally, the public at large mostly hears from/about feminists when they are opposing or criticizing something. When what's being criticized is clearly offensive, like 'legitimate rape', righteous outrage spreads like wildfire. But even the majority taking up the call don't consider themselves feminists.
I feel this is at least partly attributable to the prevailing "all or nothing" slant to the feminist debate; if you don't agree with all the tenets, then you are not a feminist and need to be educated in Feminism 101, etc.
When I was a kid, we all knew the feverishly impassioned, fanatically fervent people you could get a heated response from simply by poking fun at their latest cause celebre. I never engaged in the baiting myself, but I'd always groan inwardly as, no matter how transparently absurd the provocation, they'd always rise to the bait. These days, those are the people that trolls love to prey on--and those people are rarely taken any more seriously than the trolls themselves, no matter how worthy their cause may be.
Nit-picking and bitterness by a select few who seem more concerned with stirring up controversy, picking fights and getting revenge for past wrongs (many of which they haven't even endured themselves!) frustrates me. I see these interactions driving away would-be allies and drowning out the voices of the feminists I want to hear from, on significant issues we can all get behind, like reproductive rights and equal protections under the law.
Feminism, of course, is much more than just critical essays on women's blogs and academic debates. Encouragement and support for women all over the world (including legal and financial help, STEM scholarships, even women mentoring other women in the workplace)--these are all crucial to the feminist movement, and they are not nearly as well publicized to the public at large than the inflammatory rhetoric, because they don't garner high ratings or generate page views.
Unfortunately, as we've seen, when an attempt is made to change public perception, like the Twitter #thankafeminist drive, the haters come out full force.
It's frustrating.
posted by misha at 12:34 PM on February 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
if you don't agree with all the tenets, then you are not a feminist and need to be educated in Feminism 101, etc.
Since you've mentioned this twice, I should clarify that the Finally, Feminism 101 site I linked does offer a sampling of different feminist viewpoints and is explicitly intended as an inclusive introductory resource that would be suitable for the hypothetical men's rights activist looking for information.
From the site: "The sincerely curious can satisfy their quest for knowledge, and the ideologically antagonistic can at least learn which of their beliefs about feminism are well-founded and which are mere myths."
Admittedly, I haven't been through the site in all that much detail, so maybe it isn't what they say it is, but I am pretty sure they're at least not intending to tell potential allies that "everything they feel is wrong." Unless, of course, how they feel is that women aren't people, in which case they can go jump in a lake. A really cold lake, with lots of eels.
posted by asperity at 2:40 PM on February 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Since you've mentioned this twice, I should clarify that the Finally, Feminism 101 site I linked does offer a sampling of different feminist viewpoints and is explicitly intended as an inclusive introductory resource that would be suitable for the hypothetical men's rights activist looking for information.
From the site: "The sincerely curious can satisfy their quest for knowledge, and the ideologically antagonistic can at least learn which of their beliefs about feminism are well-founded and which are mere myths."
Admittedly, I haven't been through the site in all that much detail, so maybe it isn't what they say it is, but I am pretty sure they're at least not intending to tell potential allies that "everything they feel is wrong." Unless, of course, how they feel is that women aren't people, in which case they can go jump in a lake. A really cold lake, with lots of eels.
posted by asperity at 2:40 PM on February 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Get off the internet -- it'll give you fucked up and skewed ideas about everything.
what if reality is fucked up and skewed and the internet is just what the truth looks like when you see it head on
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 11:58 PM on February 15, 2013
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posted by shiu mai baby at 3:34 AM on February 13, 2013