As a potential role model, I advocate it.
February 27, 2013 2:44 PM Subscribe
Then Christine stumbled upon a controversial homemade herbal remedy that she credits with enormously improving her dog's quality of life. She's grateful that, in his final year, Sampson weighed in at a robust 106 pounds and lived free of the wracking pain that had haunted him. Whereas before Sampson had been too weak to walk, almost overnight he became a born-again youngster. "He was a puppy again, happy and playful," Christine recalls. "He'd trot around the house with his toys in his mouth, wanting to play fetch!" Legalize medical marijuana for dogs! (Don't miss the great picture of Mason the Vizsla looking very relaxed!)
As attitudes toward marijuana become more liberal in much of the US, more vets are prescribing medical marijuana as palliative care for dogs with cancer and undergoing cancer treatment. It is still illegal to prescribe medical marijuana for dogs. Dr. Doug Kramer, who lost his pal Nikita the Husky to cancer, explains his resolution to prescribe the drug:
As attitudes toward marijuana become more liberal in much of the US, more vets are prescribing medical marijuana as palliative care for dogs with cancer and undergoing cancer treatment. It is still illegal to prescribe medical marijuana for dogs. Dr. Doug Kramer, who lost his pal Nikita the Husky to cancer, explains his resolution to prescribe the drug:
“The decision was an easy one for me to make," he says. "I refuse to condemn my patients to a miserable existence for self preservation or concerns about what may or may not happen to me as a consequence of my actions. My freedom of speech is clearly protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution. This is an issue of animal welfare, plain and simple. Remaining silent would represent a clear violation of the veterinarian’s oath I took when I was admitted into this profession."However, dogs should only take carefully measured doses of the drug -- when they break into their owners' medicine it can be disorienting and unpleasant.
Wow...I was under the impression that marijuana was toxic for doggies.
posted by magstheaxe at 3:00 PM on February 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by magstheaxe at 3:00 PM on February 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
Wow...I was under the impression that marijuana was toxic for doggies.
No, but at human (not to mention long time user) doses, the dogs likely to be passed out, if not at least very wobbly. If the dog ingested via brownies, the chocolate is probably more dangerous than the pot.
posted by doctor_negative at 3:14 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
No, but at human (not to mention long time user) doses, the dogs likely to be passed out, if not at least very wobbly. If the dog ingested via brownies, the chocolate is probably more dangerous than the pot.
posted by doctor_negative at 3:14 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
a bunch of anecdotal hype about a herbal remedy.
I'm fairly sure that the appetite-stimulative and pain relief aspects of marijuana are not in dispute, even among people who believe that it is dangerous for other reasons and should therefore remain illegal.
posted by chimaera at 3:15 PM on February 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
I'm fairly sure that the appetite-stimulative and pain relief aspects of marijuana are not in dispute, even among people who believe that it is dangerous for other reasons and should therefore remain illegal.
posted by chimaera at 3:15 PM on February 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
I'm more than happy to believe that dope may be the bees knees when it comes to treating all kinds of illnesses, human and animal, and I fervently hope that stupid laws that make it impossible to conduct proper double-blinded studies of its effectiveness get repealed. BUT: I am interested at how willing people are to invest in what--unavoidably in the current crazy legal environment--amounts to a bunch of anecdotal hype about a herbal remedy.
It doesn't treat all kinds of illnesses, it treats a few symptoms of many illnesses. This article says the same thing: strains have been developed with an eye toward pain control, nausea relief, and appetite stimulation with minimal reported side effects [in people]." Those aren't outlandish claims, everyone has heard jokes about weed giving people the munchies, and there are tons of studies to back up the pain relieving and nausea relieving effects. Pain in dogs is treated much the same way as pain in humans (as anyone who has had to medicate their pets can attest), so it's really not outlandish to try marijuana for the same reasons.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:15 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
It doesn't treat all kinds of illnesses, it treats a few symptoms of many illnesses. This article says the same thing: strains have been developed with an eye toward pain control, nausea relief, and appetite stimulation with minimal reported side effects [in people]." Those aren't outlandish claims, everyone has heard jokes about weed giving people the munchies, and there are tons of studies to back up the pain relieving and nausea relieving effects. Pain in dogs is treated much the same way as pain in humans (as anyone who has had to medicate their pets can attest), so it's really not outlandish to try marijuana for the same reasons.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:15 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
True story: I moved to Canada maybe three days after our wedding in Atlanta. My new husband and I would have to haul what belongings I hadn't sold/given away and TWO CATS in a car for a three-day drive. I went to my vet, asked her about what I could do to make the trip easier for them since they'd mostly be in the car for eight hour stretches. She recommended and prescribed Xanax. Fair enough. "It should work fine, but sometimes cats have weird reactions to it." Like what? "Mostly hyperactivity, being aggressive." That's fine. I can handle that.
Cut to: three days of one cat being asleep and chill in his crate for the trip and the other screaming HOLY FUCKING TERROR every time the car was in motion. (She only paused and slept when we would leave the car to eat.)
So yeah, if I ever have to do that again, I'd be open to entertaining getting my elderly pissed-off tortie stoned.
posted by Kitteh at 3:28 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Cut to: three days of one cat being asleep and chill in his crate for the trip and the other screaming HOLY FUCKING TERROR every time the car was in motion. (She only paused and slept when we would leave the car to eat.)
So yeah, if I ever have to do that again, I'd be open to entertaining getting my elderly pissed-off tortie stoned.
posted by Kitteh at 3:28 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
If I could lick my own balls I would have no need for drugs.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:28 PM on February 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:28 PM on February 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
I'm fairly sure that the appetite-stimulative and pain relief aspects of marijuana are not in dispute
No, indeed. But that's a long, long way away from "we have determined in a double blinded study that taking X-dose of this drug N-times per day is a more effective and/or safer and/or less prone to causing troubling side-effects treatment than currently available treaments A, B and C." And this is typically what we demand, or should demand, as a minimum before recommending a new drug regime in place of any existing treatments.
Again, I'm not saying "stay away from the debbil weed!!"--personally, I vote "yes" on any legalization referendum that comes my way. All I'm saying is that I find it a little odd how enthusiastically people vest faith in what is largely anecdotal evidence about marijuana--even when they know perfectly well that anecdotal evidence about a drug regimen's usefulness is basically meaningless.
posted by yoink at 3:29 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
No, indeed. But that's a long, long way away from "we have determined in a double blinded study that taking X-dose of this drug N-times per day is a more effective and/or safer and/or less prone to causing troubling side-effects treatment than currently available treaments A, B and C." And this is typically what we demand, or should demand, as a minimum before recommending a new drug regime in place of any existing treatments.
Again, I'm not saying "stay away from the debbil weed!!"--personally, I vote "yes" on any legalization referendum that comes my way. All I'm saying is that I find it a little odd how enthusiastically people vest faith in what is largely anecdotal evidence about marijuana--even when they know perfectly well that anecdotal evidence about a drug regimen's usefulness is basically meaningless.
posted by yoink at 3:29 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
My dog doesn't seem to care for the smell of pot (not just the smoke, but also the buds). He loves beer though, I learned early on not to rest a can of beer on the ground because he'll 'acidentally' knock it over and then dutifully lap up the mess.
My old cat though, holy shit was he a pothead. I shared a balcony with a full-on chronic, once an hour smoker and generally by the time the smell started wafting in my window, I'd notice the cat was missing and find him out on the balcony with his nose stretched out into the trail of smoke. Then he'd come in, run twenty laps of the apt. and pass out for 4 hours. RIP Doktor Zaetz.
posted by mannequito at 3:34 PM on February 27, 2013 [21 favorites]
My old cat though, holy shit was he a pothead. I shared a balcony with a full-on chronic, once an hour smoker and generally by the time the smell started wafting in my window, I'd notice the cat was missing and find him out on the balcony with his nose stretched out into the trail of smoke. Then he'd come in, run twenty laps of the apt. and pass out for 4 hours. RIP Doktor Zaetz.
posted by mannequito at 3:34 PM on February 27, 2013 [21 favorites]
I went to my vet, asked her about what I could do to make the trip easier for them since they'd mostly be in the car for eight hour stretches. She recommended and prescribed Xanax. Fair enough.
Your fundamental mistake here was giving the Xanax to the cats. If you'd taken it yourself, the trip would have been easy peasy.
posted by Daily Alice at 3:44 PM on February 27, 2013 [19 favorites]
Your fundamental mistake here was giving the Xanax to the cats. If you'd taken it yourself, the trip would have been easy peasy.
posted by Daily Alice at 3:44 PM on February 27, 2013 [19 favorites]
I gotta quote Robin Williams in this thread, I can't resist:
"These are the same people who get their pets stoned. This is not a good idea! Your dog is not that high up on the food chain to begin with. He barely just learned to lick his own genitals, leave him alone!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:45 PM on February 27, 2013
"These are the same people who get their pets stoned. This is not a good idea! Your dog is not that high up on the food chain to begin with. He barely just learned to lick his own genitals, leave him alone!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:45 PM on February 27, 2013
It really blew the dog's mind, man. (youtube cheech and chong)
posted by snsranch at 3:49 PM on February 27, 2013
posted by snsranch at 3:49 PM on February 27, 2013
amounts to a bunch of anecdotal hype about a herbal remedy.
If my dad had been treating his back pain with MMJ instead of prescription drugs, he might be alive today. Known deaths directly from marijuana since the beginning of time (not counting getting crushed by a bale): none. Known deaths from prescription drugs: a lot.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:52 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
If my dad had been treating his back pain with MMJ instead of prescription drugs, he might be alive today. Known deaths directly from marijuana since the beginning of time (not counting getting crushed by a bale): none. Known deaths from prescription drugs: a lot.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:52 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Apparently, "stoned dogs" is quite the meme.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:56 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:56 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Known deaths directly from marijuana since the beginning of time (not counting getting crushed by a bale): none.
Are we not counting deaths caused by lung cancer, increased schizophrenia, increased depression, asthma, and car crashes, or what? I agree that marijuana is mostly harmless, but let's not push too far.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:00 PM on February 27, 2013
Are we not counting deaths caused by lung cancer, increased schizophrenia, increased depression, asthma, and car crashes, or what? I agree that marijuana is mostly harmless, but let's not push too far.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:00 PM on February 27, 2013
As someone with cigarette butt-loving lab mix who once lived in Oakland, CA, I can verify that a human dose of weed is not a fun time for doggies. I'd also like to apologize once again for waking up my ER doc neighbor who'd just come off of a shift, only to have to crawl out of bed, examine the freaked-out canine patient, and pronounce his professional opinion that "dude, I'm pretty sure your dog is just stoned."
posted by deludingmyself at 4:03 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by deludingmyself at 4:03 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
People who would usually be really suspicious of the kinds of claims we find in this FPP, for example, were they being advanced about any other Miracle Herb or Wonder Supplement, often seem to just let any critical analysis fall by the wayside when its dope. Because, you know, dope is obviously cool.It's because there is plenty of scientific literature about the positive effects of cannabis and it's been used for thousands of years by billions of people with zero recorded fatal overdoses. Also, anyone with experience of using cannabis to treat humans who are terminally ill are well aware of how much good it does for the patient and their friends and family. It's not a stretch to assume that it has a similar effect on other mammals.
Hell, it's so safe that you could give it a clinical trial for just about any medical condition. Even if it's just more effective than a placebo, cannabis is probably safer than the placebo.
posted by tripping daisy at 4:07 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
There's prettty good evidence for marijuana or marijuana-derived compounds for both pain and nausea relief. The number of studies are limited due to US drug laws, social stigma, and the low potential for pharmaceutical companies to make a bunch of money off it, but the evidence is there.
For example: This study shows that THC:CBD extract is efficacious for relief of pain in patients with advanced cancer pain not fully relieved by strong opioids.
Oral tetrahydrocannabinol has antiemetic properties and is significantly better than a placebo in reducting vomiting caused by chemotherapeutic agents.
We conclude that THC is an effective antiemetic in many patients who receive chemotherapy for cancer and for whom other antiemetics are ineffective..
posted by latkes at 4:07 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
For example: This study shows that THC:CBD extract is efficacious for relief of pain in patients with advanced cancer pain not fully relieved by strong opioids.
Oral tetrahydrocannabinol has antiemetic properties and is significantly better than a placebo in reducting vomiting caused by chemotherapeutic agents.
We conclude that THC is an effective antiemetic in many patients who receive chemotherapy for cancer and for whom other antiemetics are ineffective..
posted by latkes at 4:07 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Are we not counting deaths caused by lung cancer, increased schizophrenia, increased depression, asthma, and car crashes, or what? I agree that marijuana is mostly harmless, but let's not push too far.
That's a ridiculous statement. It's like saying, "Yeah, beers are mostly harmless, but what about alcoholism, depression, car crashes, murders, assaults, diabetes, obesity, and unplanned pregnancy?"
Dose for dose, cannabis is practically the safest drug in existence when it is ingested without smoking. If a pet got into a cannabis stash, the worst thing that would happen is they would go to sleep. If it's almost anything else -- household cleaner, chocolate (for dogs at least), or any drug that comes in a pill form including aspirin and ibuprofen -- they have a greater chance of being dead.
posted by tripping daisy at 4:17 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
That's a ridiculous statement. It's like saying, "Yeah, beers are mostly harmless, but what about alcoholism, depression, car crashes, murders, assaults, diabetes, obesity, and unplanned pregnancy?"
Dose for dose, cannabis is practically the safest drug in existence when it is ingested without smoking. If a pet got into a cannabis stash, the worst thing that would happen is they would go to sleep. If it's almost anything else -- household cleaner, chocolate (for dogs at least), or any drug that comes in a pill form including aspirin and ibuprofen -- they have a greater chance of being dead.
posted by tripping daisy at 4:17 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
If I could lick my own balls I would have no need for drugs.
Everyone says that, until they succeed at the task. At that point you realize all you have is a mouth full of balls, and no one else in the room to appreciate your hard work. Unless you're at a party or something, then I guess it's a fun trick to show off.
posted by FatherDagon at 4:20 PM on February 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
Everyone says that, until they succeed at the task. At that point you realize all you have is a mouth full of balls, and no one else in the room to appreciate your hard work. Unless you're at a party or something, then I guess it's a fun trick to show off.
posted by FatherDagon at 4:20 PM on February 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
I'm just saying that stating something is mostly harmless is sufficient. We don't have to make up a myth that it's perfectly safe, nothing is perfectly safe and it's not a useful statement since at best you are going to have to fight for your credibility.
I've supported medical marijuana legalization for at least 20 years, and have friends who've worked for NORML, but that doesn't mean there's a good reason for inaccurate or hyperbolic statements about it.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:23 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've supported medical marijuana legalization for at least 20 years, and have friends who've worked for NORML, but that doesn't mean there's a good reason for inaccurate or hyperbolic statements about it.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:23 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
If my dad had been treating his back pain with MMJ instead of prescription drugs, he might be alive today. Known deaths directly from marijuana since the beginning of time (not counting getting crushed by a bale): none. Known deaths from prescription drugs: a lot.
You're talking past the post you quote with an unrelated point; there's a reason "safety" and "efficacy" are often recited together but are not treated as synonymous.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 4:24 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
You're talking past the post you quote with an unrelated point; there's a reason "safety" and "efficacy" are often recited together but are not treated as synonymous.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 4:24 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Greg Nog: Also WHY are there no mentions of how it affects CATS
Probably because it makes you giggle uncontrollably at the name "Rum-tum Tugger".
posted by dr_dank at 4:24 PM on February 27, 2013
Probably because it makes you giggle uncontrollably at the name "Rum-tum Tugger".
posted by dr_dank at 4:24 PM on February 27, 2013
For example: This study shows that THC:CBD extract is efficacious for relief of pain in patients with advanced cancer pain not fully relieved by strong opioids.
Oral tetrahydrocannabinol has antiemetic properties and is significantly better than a placebo in reducting vomiting caused by chemotherapeutic agents.
We conclude that THC is an effective antiemetic in many patients who receive chemotherapy for cancer and for whom other antiemetics are ineffective..
These are fine as far as they go, but it's not really all that far. You'll notice, for example, that the second two studies are pretty old; are there more recent medications which have shown similar or greater efficacy as antiemetics that have been brought to the market since then?
More troublingly, though, we have this: the first of those studies is the most recent and, I think, the largest. While it does, indeed, find some analgesic effect from THC:CBD (though not, as it happens, from THC alone) it also finds this:
My point is simply that this has not been adequately studied yet. There are lots of drugs that are used in clinical situations all the time and which it would be trivial to find people touting as "miracle drugs" that "saved their lives" and which subsequent research has shown to be of dubious value. Anecdotes of the kind being brought forward in this thread are simply useless and scattered small-scale studies are not much better. The answer to the question "what is the medical benefit of marijuana" is "we don't really know yet." But an awful lot of people are very heavily invested in believing that it must be a wonder drug.
posted by yoink at 4:28 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oral tetrahydrocannabinol has antiemetic properties and is significantly better than a placebo in reducting vomiting caused by chemotherapeutic agents.
We conclude that THC is an effective antiemetic in many patients who receive chemotherapy for cancer and for whom other antiemetics are ineffective..
These are fine as far as they go, but it's not really all that far. You'll notice, for example, that the second two studies are pretty old; are there more recent medications which have shown similar or greater efficacy as antiemetics that have been brought to the market since then?
More troublingly, though, we have this: the first of those studies is the most recent and, I think, the largest. While it does, indeed, find some analgesic effect from THC:CBD (though not, as it happens, from THC alone) it also finds this:
However, the results from the European Organisation for Research and Treatment of Cancer Quality of Life Cancer Questionnaire showed a worsening in nausea and vomiting with THC:CBD compared with placebo (P = 0.02), whereas THC had no difference (P = 1.0).That is rather less encouraging, don't you think? I mean, if you want us to accept the study's finding as regards pain you also have to accept its other findings, don't you?
My point is simply that this has not been adequately studied yet. There are lots of drugs that are used in clinical situations all the time and which it would be trivial to find people touting as "miracle drugs" that "saved their lives" and which subsequent research has shown to be of dubious value. Anecdotes of the kind being brought forward in this thread are simply useless and scattered small-scale studies are not much better. The answer to the question "what is the medical benefit of marijuana" is "we don't really know yet." But an awful lot of people are very heavily invested in believing that it must be a wonder drug.
posted by yoink at 4:28 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
My mom's cat was a doper! ت it's great for feline arthritis. People in India use mild forms of marijuana to help camels who are in pain.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 4:34 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 4:34 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've supported medical marijuana legalization for at least 20 years, and have friends who've worked for NORML, but that doesn't mean there's a good reason for inaccurate or hyperbolic statements about it.
See, this is the difference between Libs & Cons. If this were a conservative gun blog, do you think one single person would pop up with, a plea for accuracy or restraint in comments in support of the hive mindset?
posted by notreally at 4:37 PM on February 27, 2013
See, this is the difference between Libs & Cons. If this were a conservative gun blog, do you think one single person would pop up with, a plea for accuracy or restraint in comments in support of the hive mindset?
posted by notreally at 4:37 PM on February 27, 2013
I think the main thing to take away from these stories, for now, is that the lack of research around the Cannabis plant is the real problem here.
posted by cell divide at 4:37 PM on February 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by cell divide at 4:37 PM on February 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
This might be a good place to tell the story of my friend who left a moldy pot brownie in the trash where it was scarfed up overnight by the family dog. For a human, it would have been a heroic dose of weed to eat that whole brownie at once. Being a 70-lb dog, she was out of her gourd. When we found her, she was breathing but could hardly be roused from sleep; she was wobbly enough that we had to carry her much of the way to the car and into the vet's office. The treatment they gave her was for the massive dose of chocolate. We were told that the weed may have actually helped; the negative effects of theobromides (the toxin in chocolate) include racing heart, fast and shallow breathing, etc. This dog was completely zonked from the pot, and it took her a good couple of days (of very expensive hospital treatments) before she didn't seem utterly stoned.
Throw away your brownies securely. We learned that baking chocolate has about 10x the level of theobromide as factory-made candy chocolate, so homemade chocolate food is much more dangerous.
posted by lostburner at 4:38 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Throw away your brownies securely. We learned that baking chocolate has about 10x the level of theobromide as factory-made candy chocolate, so homemade chocolate food is much more dangerous.
posted by lostburner at 4:38 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Doesn't weed increase the heart rate too? Sometimes?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 4:41 PM on February 27, 2013
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 4:41 PM on February 27, 2013
The answer to the question "what is the medical benefit of marijuana" is "we don't really know yet." But an awful lot of people are very heavily invested in believing that it must be a wonder drug.
Um, there are so many widely-recognized benefits that there's a substantial market in developing synthetic cannabinoids which mimic marijuana's function, avoid the side-effect of getting stoned, and get around drug laws. The TL;DR is in the conclusion:
Unfortunately, therapeutic doses of both CB1R agonists and antagonists produce unacceptable psychiatric effects, severely limiting future drug discovery. Several strategies to mitigate these side effects are being investigated, including development of CB1R ligands with restricted CNS access, identifying allosteric modulators of CB1Rs, indirect enhancement of CB1R activity by blocking endocannabinoid breakdown, and use of neutral CB1 antagonists.
There's a whole galaxy of medical compounds yet to be found by marijuana researchers. Nobody serious thinks it's a dead end. The question is not "is there a medical benefit" it's just "how do we develop drugs that retain the medical benefit while not getting people stoned."
posted by mek at 4:53 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Um, there are so many widely-recognized benefits that there's a substantial market in developing synthetic cannabinoids which mimic marijuana's function, avoid the side-effect of getting stoned, and get around drug laws. The TL;DR is in the conclusion:
Unfortunately, therapeutic doses of both CB1R agonists and antagonists produce unacceptable psychiatric effects, severely limiting future drug discovery. Several strategies to mitigate these side effects are being investigated, including development of CB1R ligands with restricted CNS access, identifying allosteric modulators of CB1Rs, indirect enhancement of CB1R activity by blocking endocannabinoid breakdown, and use of neutral CB1 antagonists.
There's a whole galaxy of medical compounds yet to be found by marijuana researchers. Nobody serious thinks it's a dead end. The question is not "is there a medical benefit" it's just "how do we develop drugs that retain the medical benefit while not getting people stoned."
posted by mek at 4:53 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Was about to mention that myself. Marinol (synthetic THC) has been FDA-approved since 1985, and has picked up new labeled uses since then (e.g. for the treatment of anorexia). Sativex (a standardized whole-plant marijuana tincture) has been in approved use in the UK (and more recently Canada) for some years. The idea that we "don't know" what the medical benefit of marijuana is requires ignoring decades worth of entirely mainstream science.
posted by mj_sockpuppet at 5:08 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by mj_sockpuppet at 5:08 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
There's a whole galaxy of medical compounds yet to be found by marijuana researchers. Nobody serious thinks it's a dead end. The question is not "is there a medical benefit" it's just "how do we develop drugs that retain the medical benefit while not getting people stoned."
It would be nice if folks who didn't mind that particular side effect had more access.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:09 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
It would be nice if folks who didn't mind that particular side effect had more access.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:09 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
"how do we develop drugs that retain the medical benefit while not getting people stoned."
Considering that many people would takethe drugs even without the medical benefit, if the medical benefit is available now and the patient finds the getting stoned part acceptable, what the fuck is so unacceptable about these side effects? I mean Tylenol fucking kills you if you abuse it and it's OTC.
Oh, somebody might be having fun! Somebody sick even! Well we certainly can't have that. I guess opioids laced with enough Tylenol to kill you if you don't stick to your regimen are far superior.
posted by localroger at 6:13 PM on February 27, 2013 [20 favorites]
Considering that many people would takethe drugs even without the medical benefit, if the medical benefit is available now and the patient finds the getting stoned part acceptable, what the fuck is so unacceptable about these side effects? I mean Tylenol fucking kills you if you abuse it and it's OTC.
Oh, somebody might be having fun! Somebody sick even! Well we certainly can't have that. I guess opioids laced with enough Tylenol to kill you if you don't stick to your regimen are far superior.
posted by localroger at 6:13 PM on February 27, 2013 [20 favorites]
"Also WHY are there no mentions of how it affects CATS"
Most likely the same effect with a lower dosage. The dosage is probably proportional to body weight, so:
Whales > Humans > Dogs > Cats > Parrots > Cockatiels
posted by Kevin Street at 6:18 PM on February 27, 2013
Most likely the same effect with a lower dosage. The dosage is probably proportional to body weight, so:
Whales > Humans > Dogs > Cats > Parrots > Cockatiels
posted by Kevin Street at 6:18 PM on February 27, 2013
I have seen a peach-front conure (just a tad bigger than a cockatiel) get seriously fucking drunk after drinking one drop of Irish Mist. (The owner was used to him begging for a taste, then rejecting alcoholic beverages. The Irish Mist he swallowed though.)
In other news, a drunk parrot is hilarious.
posted by localroger at 6:42 PM on February 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
In other news, a drunk parrot is hilarious.
posted by localroger at 6:42 PM on February 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
yoink: " No, indeed. But that's a long, long way away from "we have determined in a double blinded study that taking X-dose of this drug N-times per day is a more effective and/or safer and/or less prone to causing troubling side-effects treatment than currently available treaments A, B and C." And this is typically what we demand, or should demand, as a minimum before recommending a new drug regime in place of any existing treatments."
It's been effectively illegal until fairly recently to do research on cannabis in the US. Do, please, explicate on how said double-blinded studies would have been conducted?
Information from NORML on Recent Research on Medical Marijuana.
Kevin Street: " Most likely the same effect with a lower dosage. The dosage is probably proportional to body weight, so:
Whales > Humans > Dogs > Cats > Parrots > Cockatiels"
IME bird physiology is weird, and they react to substances as if they're half the mass they really are. On the other hand, I've known parrots who were around pot smoke regularly and never seemed to demonstrate changed behavior.
posted by Lexica at 7:39 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's been effectively illegal until fairly recently to do research on cannabis in the US. Do, please, explicate on how said double-blinded studies would have been conducted?
Information from NORML on Recent Research on Medical Marijuana.
Kevin Street: " Most likely the same effect with a lower dosage. The dosage is probably proportional to body weight, so:
Whales > Humans > Dogs > Cats > Parrots > Cockatiels"
IME bird physiology is weird, and they react to substances as if they're half the mass they really are. On the other hand, I've known parrots who were around pot smoke regularly and never seemed to demonstrate changed behavior.
posted by Lexica at 7:39 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
All right, leave the birds out altogether.
Whales > Elephants > Gorillas > Humans > Dogs > Cats > Ferrets
posted by Kevin Street at 7:47 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Whales > Elephants > Gorillas > Humans > Dogs > Cats > Ferrets
posted by Kevin Street at 7:47 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Let's just ignore body weight and this is about value. Then
Whales > Elephants > Gorillas > Dogs > Humans > Cats > Ferrets
posted by grobstein at 8:14 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Whales > Elephants > Gorillas > Dogs > Humans > Cats > Ferrets
posted by grobstein at 8:14 PM on February 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
When I was a teen, my parents had a dog that fucking LOVED weed. Big, happy, friendly golden retriever. It started out with me blowing it in his ear one day, because I was a stupid fucking kid and thought it'd be fun to get the dog high. Turns out, he fucking loved it! He'd get all frisky and race around the yard and bring me the ball and play fetch for an hour! Pretty soon, whenever I'd toke up -- no, scratch that -- whenever I'd whip out a bag of weed, he'd beg to come out on the porch with me and get all excited. When I'd light up, he would -- I shit you not -- lay down on his belly, put his head between his front paws, TURN HIS HEAD TO THE SIDE so that his ear was facing up, and TWITCH HIS EAR. A few puffs, and he'd be off and running. Dog fucking loved weed.
Cats, from my experience, generally hate it, but I think they just hate the smoke. But I did have a friend whose cat liked it. Big, fat, mellow cat. Think Garfield. When you'd smoke up, he'd always find his way into your lap. Even better, after you dropped the roach into the ashtray, he'd hover around the ashtray. I couldn't actually tell if he was high, because he was such a mellow cat to begin with. But he certainly seemed drawn to it.
posted by Afroblanco at 8:22 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Cats, from my experience, generally hate it, but I think they just hate the smoke. But I did have a friend whose cat liked it. Big, fat, mellow cat. Think Garfield. When you'd smoke up, he'd always find his way into your lap. Even better, after you dropped the roach into the ashtray, he'd hover around the ashtray. I couldn't actually tell if he was high, because he was such a mellow cat to begin with. But he certainly seemed drawn to it.
posted by Afroblanco at 8:22 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Cats have catnip. Some cats seem stoned by catnip, but usually it's a more upbeat reaction. And some cats like marijuana buds and react similarly. They all pretty much hate smoke, of any kind, from what I've seen.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:09 PM on February 27, 2013
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:09 PM on February 27, 2013
My sister's little dog was rescued from a vet clinic after the owner declined to pay the bill. The original owner had turned her back on both the dog, which has no discipline in the least, and her dime-bag, so the dog arrived the vet clinic with a milkbone jones and kept staring at its paw. "Have you ever really looked at your paw?"
After the detox, the dog seems a normal dog, though untrainable and possibly stupid (I have expectations, so I feel those are the same thing). But he's a friendly and affectionate little shit, and perhaps living somewhat in the shadow of the late but exceptionally great yellow lab who was a proper headmistress around my sister's kids. A menace to socks, though, and gives the clothes-dryer some competition.
I forwarded this article to my sister, but five'll get you ten that she doesn't mention a word of it to the dog. Don't want to get his hopes up.
posted by Sunburnt at 9:33 PM on February 27, 2013
After the detox, the dog seems a normal dog, though untrainable and possibly stupid (I have expectations, so I feel those are the same thing). But he's a friendly and affectionate little shit, and perhaps living somewhat in the shadow of the late but exceptionally great yellow lab who was a proper headmistress around my sister's kids. A menace to socks, though, and gives the clothes-dryer some competition.
I forwarded this article to my sister, but five'll get you ten that she doesn't mention a word of it to the dog. Don't want to get his hopes up.
posted by Sunburnt at 9:33 PM on February 27, 2013
It's been effectively illegal until fairly recently to do research on cannabis in the US. Do, please, explicate on how said double-blinded studies would have been conducted?
Maybe in the Netherlands?
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:39 PM on February 27, 2013
Maybe in the Netherlands?
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:39 PM on February 27, 2013
what the fuck is so unacceptable about these side effects?
Well, one of the problems in all pain medication for people who need a lot of it is that the more you take, the more incapacitated you get, the less you can function normally. So if you have the pain relief of dope without the lying on the couch staring at the ceiling aspects, that would be a boon to people who like being pain free, but also want to do something that day.
Anecdotically, my wife started smoking dope regularly once she came over to the Netherlands and it helped her a lot not just with combatting the regular nausea she had, but also with regulating her digestive system, calming it down. She had to smoke so much she didn't really get a noticable buzz from it anymore.
She smoked in hospital as well, which bothered nobody as long as she did it outside of the little smokers shelter, because as the kind security man explained, some people can't stand the smell of dope.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:29 AM on February 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
Well, one of the problems in all pain medication for people who need a lot of it is that the more you take, the more incapacitated you get, the less you can function normally. So if you have the pain relief of dope without the lying on the couch staring at the ceiling aspects, that would be a boon to people who like being pain free, but also want to do something that day.
Anecdotically, my wife started smoking dope regularly once she came over to the Netherlands and it helped her a lot not just with combatting the regular nausea she had, but also with regulating her digestive system, calming it down. She had to smoke so much she didn't really get a noticable buzz from it anymore.
She smoked in hospital as well, which bothered nobody as long as she did it outside of the little smokers shelter, because as the kind security man explained, some people can't stand the smell of dope.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:29 AM on February 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's been effectively illegal until fairly recently to do research on cannabis in the US. Do, please, explicate on how said double-blinded studies would have been conducted?
From my first comment in this thread: "I'm more than happy to believe that dope may be the bees knees when it comes to treating all kinds of illnesses, human and animal, and I fervently hope that stupid laws that make it impossible to conduct proper double-blinded studies of its effectiveness get repealed."
Once again, I am NOT saying that dope may not be a wonder drug. I am saying that we simply do not yet have evidence that it IS, and that otherwise smart and informed people are curiously unwilling to treat the wilder anecdotal claims about dope's effectiveness with appropriate skepticism. As witness this thread right here.
posted by yoink at 1:51 PM on February 28, 2013
From my first comment in this thread: "I'm more than happy to believe that dope may be the bees knees when it comes to treating all kinds of illnesses, human and animal, and I fervently hope that stupid laws that make it impossible to conduct proper double-blinded studies of its effectiveness get repealed."
Once again, I am NOT saying that dope may not be a wonder drug. I am saying that we simply do not yet have evidence that it IS, and that otherwise smart and informed people are curiously unwilling to treat the wilder anecdotal claims about dope's effectiveness with appropriate skepticism. As witness this thread right here.
posted by yoink at 1:51 PM on February 28, 2013
Okay, the Michigam Veterinary Specialists web site has info about dogs and marijuana toxicity, as does VeterinaryPracticeNews, and--of all places--DailyCamera:
Do pets get high?
No. Marijuana exposure in pets causes neurologic toxicity, which is not the same as the "high" that people experience. The symptoms (staggering, agitation, stupor, etc.) that develop in pets do not appear enjoyable for them.
Med pot for pets?
Currently, marijuana is considered a toxin to pets, and there are no recommended uses. Marijuana is a complex substance, and the effects of THC on individual animals are extremely variable. Some animals become highly agitated from marijuana, while others exhibit signs of depression. There have been studies that show THC may have anti-seizure effects, while other studies indicate THC may provoke seizures. Some feel marijuana may reduce nausea, but roughly 1/3 of animals exposed to marijuana will develop signs of nausea and vomiting.
Furthermore, dosing in animals is challenging. The THC content varies in marijuana plants, complicating the ability to control a drug dose. Thus, at this time, there are no generally accepted medical or prescription uses for marijuana in pets.
For more information, visit Poison Control Center information on marijuana: http://aspca.org/Pet-care/poison-control/Plants/marijuana.aspx
posted by magstheaxe at 2:17 PM on February 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
Do pets get high?
No. Marijuana exposure in pets causes neurologic toxicity, which is not the same as the "high" that people experience. The symptoms (staggering, agitation, stupor, etc.) that develop in pets do not appear enjoyable for them.
Med pot for pets?
Currently, marijuana is considered a toxin to pets, and there are no recommended uses. Marijuana is a complex substance, and the effects of THC on individual animals are extremely variable. Some animals become highly agitated from marijuana, while others exhibit signs of depression. There have been studies that show THC may have anti-seizure effects, while other studies indicate THC may provoke seizures. Some feel marijuana may reduce nausea, but roughly 1/3 of animals exposed to marijuana will develop signs of nausea and vomiting.
Furthermore, dosing in animals is challenging. The THC content varies in marijuana plants, complicating the ability to control a drug dose. Thus, at this time, there are no generally accepted medical or prescription uses for marijuana in pets.
For more information, visit Poison Control Center information on marijuana: http://aspca.org/Pet-care/poison-control/Plants/marijuana.aspx
posted by magstheaxe at 2:17 PM on February 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
No. Marijuana exposure in pets causes neurologic toxicity, which is not the same as the "high" that people experience. The symptoms (staggering, agitation, stupor, etc.) that develop in pets do not appear enjoyable for them.
The problem with this is that taking way too much marijuana (especially by mouth) causes similar symptoms in humans. I know several experienced psychonauts who consider too many brownies to be the worst drug experience they've ever had. When you compare the size of a dimebag to the size of a dog, it becomes rather obvious that what's going on here is not necessarily a difference in the way pets experience the drug.
posted by mj_sockpuppet at 4:10 PM on February 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
The problem with this is that taking way too much marijuana (especially by mouth) causes similar symptoms in humans. I know several experienced psychonauts who consider too many brownies to be the worst drug experience they've ever had. When you compare the size of a dimebag to the size of a dog, it becomes rather obvious that what's going on here is not necessarily a difference in the way pets experience the drug.
posted by mj_sockpuppet at 4:10 PM on February 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
« Older Anthropologist denounces militarization | Naming: From Fly-fornication (ok) to ChristIsKing... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by yoink at 2:50 PM on February 27, 2013 [12 favorites]