They deny being neo-Nazis.
March 6, 2013 11:35 AM Subscribe
A Golden Dawn candidate for parliament threatens the extermination of immigrants on camera (alt) (NSFW). There is also an interview with the filmmaker.
The film - which was broadcast on Channel 4 News on 5 March - was shot by Konstantinos Georgousis, with the full knowledge of the members, after spending a month filming far-right Golden Dawn party on the streets of Athens.
In the film, Alexandros Plomaritis, a 44-year-old who ran for parliament for the party in last year's election, said: "We are ready to open the ovens. We will turn them into soap ... to wash cars and pavements. We will make lamps from their skin."
The spokesperson of the party claimed party members were filmed with a hidden camera and that they were joking, but
an investigation was opened after the Greek anti-racist crime unit referred the news report to the criminal prosecutor. Previously.
The alt page is in Greek, but it hosts the videos in English.
The film - which was broadcast on Channel 4 News on 5 March - was shot by Konstantinos Georgousis, with the full knowledge of the members, after spending a month filming far-right Golden Dawn party on the streets of Athens.
In the film, Alexandros Plomaritis, a 44-year-old who ran for parliament for the party in last year's election, said: "We are ready to open the ovens. We will turn them into soap ... to wash cars and pavements. We will make lamps from their skin."
The spokesperson of the party claimed party members were filmed with a hidden camera and that they were joking, but
an investigation was opened after the Greek anti-racist crime unit referred the news report to the criminal prosecutor. Previously.
The alt page is in Greek, but it hosts the videos in English.
Jesus Christ.
posted by dismas at 11:45 AM on March 6, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by dismas at 11:45 AM on March 6, 2013 [6 favorites]
We are ready to open the ovens. We will turn them into soap ... to wash cars and pavements. We will make lamps from their skin.
And I bet he also claims that the Holocaust is a myth.
posted by yoink at 11:52 AM on March 6, 2013 [30 favorites]
And I bet he also claims that the Holocaust is a myth.
posted by yoink at 11:52 AM on March 6, 2013 [30 favorites]
Well, it certainly saves the opposition parties from needing to go to the trouble of calling them Nazis.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:53 AM on March 6, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:53 AM on March 6, 2013 [9 favorites]
I wish there were a God to electrocute these brutes where they stand.
I think I read it here that some branch of Reddit has been discussing the formation of a modern Lincoln Brigade to fight Golden Dawn. I should have followed up on that story.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:55 AM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think I read it here that some branch of Reddit has been discussing the formation of a modern Lincoln Brigade to fight Golden Dawn. I should have followed up on that story.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:55 AM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
We are ready to open the ovens. We will turn them into soap ... to wash cars and pavements. We will make lamps from their skin.
WE WILL MAKE THEM DRINK RETSINA!
posted by three blind mice at 11:58 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
WE WILL MAKE THEM DRINK RETSINA!
posted by three blind mice at 11:58 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Never trust an occult right winger.
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
Appalling, and yet not at all surprising. Fuck.
posted by rtha at 11:58 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by rtha at 11:58 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Some version of this is happening in almost every European country, even the most progressive ones.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:01 PM on March 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:01 PM on March 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
In the film, Alexandros Plomaritis, a 44-year-old who ran for parliament for the party in last year's election, said: "We are ready to open the ovens. We will turn them into soap ... to wash cars and pavements. We will make lamps from their skin."Can't we just firebomb them now and save ourselves the heartache? The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.
posted by Jehan at 12:01 PM on March 6, 2013 [6 favorites]
Can't we just firebomb them now and save ourselves the heartache? The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.
At least gather some friends and attack them with a proper club and boot.
posted by uraniumwilly at 12:04 PM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
At least gather some friends and attack them with a proper club and boot.
posted by uraniumwilly at 12:04 PM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think I read it here that some branch of Reddit has been discussing the formation of a modern Lincoln Brigade to fight Golden Dawn.
Maybe just figure out a way to give jobs to and improve the quality of life of the majority of Greek citizens would be enough to neutralize these creeps.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:08 PM on March 6, 2013 [16 favorites]
Maybe just figure out a way to give jobs to and improve the quality of life of the majority of Greek citizens would be enough to neutralize these creeps.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:08 PM on March 6, 2013 [16 favorites]
Maybe just figure out a way to give jobs to and improve the quality of life of the majority of Greek citizens would be enough to neutralize these creeps.
Agreed. I don't think anything will come of the Reddit Brigade.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:11 PM on March 6, 2013
Agreed. I don't think anything will come of the Reddit Brigade.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:11 PM on March 6, 2013
Foci for Analysis: "Some version of this is happening in almost every European country, even the most progressive ones."Yes. However, the number of European countries where Nazi fucks like these have 6% of the seats in the national assembly is quite a lot smaller.
posted by brokkr at 12:16 PM on March 6, 2013
There is an interesting bit where an old man wants to be convinced that the salute of the GD is different from the Nazi salute. For context, unemployment is 26%.
posted by ersatz at 12:23 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by ersatz at 12:23 PM on March 6, 2013
WTH Greece? What happened to being one of the beacons of civilisation?
posted by arcticseal at 12:27 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by arcticseal at 12:27 PM on March 6, 2013
Hopefully the ghost of Aleister Crowley will rise from his infernal slumber and crush them all.
And now, here's a statement from the EU about the gathering steam of this movement:
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:27 PM on March 6, 2013 [9 favorites]
And now, here's a statement from the EU about the gathering steam of this movement:
" "Hm! Intriguing.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:27 PM on March 6, 2013 [9 favorites]
WTH Greece? What happened to being one of the beacons of civilisation?
With all due respect to the people of Greece, the days of it being a particular "beacon of civilization" - as opposed to "Just another European country" with all the awkward mix of democracy, plutocracy, populism, totalitarianism, awfulness, and wonderfulness you can imagine - is thousands of years past. Greece-as-beacon-of-civilization is no more currently-meainingful than "Ireland as beacon of civilization" or "Germany as beacon of civilization" or any of the other countries that have done a turn as Being Particularly Good at Creating and Maintaining Western Civilization For a Bit.
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:34 PM on March 6, 2013 [14 favorites]
With all due respect to the people of Greece, the days of it being a particular "beacon of civilization" - as opposed to "Just another European country" with all the awkward mix of democracy, plutocracy, populism, totalitarianism, awfulness, and wonderfulness you can imagine - is thousands of years past. Greece-as-beacon-of-civilization is no more currently-meainingful than "Ireland as beacon of civilization" or "Germany as beacon of civilization" or any of the other countries that have done a turn as Being Particularly Good at Creating and Maintaining Western Civilization For a Bit.
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:34 PM on March 6, 2013 [14 favorites]
Being Particularly Good at Creating and Maintaining Western Civilization For a Bit.
I like the capitalization and the possible book title.
posted by uraniumwilly at 12:37 PM on March 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
I like the capitalization and the possible book title.
posted by uraniumwilly at 12:37 PM on March 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
Ack. Every time I see their name I briefly assume it's something about these guys, then I realize that no, it's those Nazi assholes again. Bleh.
posted by homunculus at 12:40 PM on March 6, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 12:40 PM on March 6, 2013 [8 favorites]
Some version of this is happening in almost every European country, even the most progressive ones.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:01 PM on March 6
[citation needed]
posted by Decani at 12:42 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:01 PM on March 6
[citation needed]
posted by Decani at 12:42 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
While watching the video, I was honestly terrified for that Bangladeshi family they got to pose for them -- just waiting for them to do something horrible. I don't even know what to say.
posted by sldownard at 12:44 PM on March 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by sldownard at 12:44 PM on March 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
Might I note that if one believes the results of the Milgram and Stanford Prison experiments, ~ 65% of a normal population has the capacity to become a "Nazi" if the correct set of conditions exist. Before becoming too judgmental I might want to examine what stresses the European economic turmoil have placed on Greek society. Perhaps solving the Greek economic woes = relief of societal stress = Golden Dawn/ Nazis diminishing the below the background political noise level.
posted by area45 at 12:46 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by area45 at 12:46 PM on March 6, 2013
Rustic Etruscan: "I think I read it here that some branch of Reddit has been discussing the formation of a modern Lincoln Brigade to fight Golden Dawn."
That would require civil war, and, most importantly, an organized, militarized opposition to Golden Dawn. A bunch of foreigners just going to Greece and fighting a Greek political party (however heinous) in the streets is unlikely to elicit much sympathy from common Greeks, and might well give ammunition to Golden Dawn itself.
So, not very well thought out.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:51 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
That would require civil war, and, most importantly, an organized, militarized opposition to Golden Dawn. A bunch of foreigners just going to Greece and fighting a Greek political party (however heinous) in the streets is unlikely to elicit much sympathy from common Greeks, and might well give ammunition to Golden Dawn itself.
So, not very well thought out.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:51 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
~ 65% of a normal population has the capacity to become a "Nazi" if the correct set of conditions exist
That little?
posted by IndigoJones at 12:57 PM on March 6, 2013
That little?
posted by IndigoJones at 12:57 PM on March 6, 2013
Some version of this is happening in almost every European countryhaha, yes, "European"
:(
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 12:59 PM on March 6, 2013
It's pretty amazing how they can't stop from outing themselves for even 5 minutes. When comparing salutes: "No, no, we're not Nazis. *This* is how we do it, but *this* is how the Nazis do it. Oh, and *this* is how the Jews do it. Did I mention that we're not Nazis?"
posted by benito.strauss at 12:59 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by benito.strauss at 12:59 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
They deny being neo-Nazis.
Well, yeah. There's nothing particularly "neo" about it.
posted by Etrigan at 1:00 PM on March 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
Well, yeah. There's nothing particularly "neo" about it.
posted by Etrigan at 1:00 PM on March 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
European television is the worst.
It's a bummer unless you're on an Italian station.
posted by uraniumwilly at 1:03 PM on March 6, 2013
It's a bummer unless you're on an Italian station.
posted by uraniumwilly at 1:03 PM on March 6, 2013
WTH Greece? What happened to being one of the beacons of civilisation?
Nah, I think Xerxes shoulda won. The Persians were way more civilized than those Spartans.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:03 PM on March 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
Nah, I think Xerxes shoulda won. The Persians were way more civilized than those Spartans.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:03 PM on March 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
"We were just kidding" doesn't work very well as a defense if the statements aren't, you know, funny.
posted by 1adam12 at 1:06 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by 1adam12 at 1:06 PM on March 6, 2013
Laurie Penny and Molly Crabapple spent six days in Athens this summer, lots of interviews with people about the Golden Dawn and the situation on the ground there.
posted by The Whelk at 1:06 PM on March 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 1:06 PM on March 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'll be honest: I got about three minutes into this and had to stop. I'll have to opt to read the information gleaned from within the film, because right off the bat comes some of the ugliest, most hateful racist and homophobic spew I've heard in a really long time. It's pretty striking. But kudos nonetheless to the bravery of the film-maker for shining such a white-hot beam on this.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:07 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:07 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Given the Greek economy, I wonder how many immigrants will either stay there or want to move there. What is happening in Europe, and of course in the US, though perhaps not as bad, is that as economies get better, the job opportunities do not, so that we will have increasingly many young unemployed people in various countries, and they will blame "The Other" for their troubles.
Over 15 years ago E.O. Wilson said in a book that the two biggest issues we would confront in our immediate future would be many (1)immigrants leaving home countries in search of better opportunities for their families; and (2)wars for drinkable water.
posted by Postroad at 1:10 PM on March 6, 2013
Over 15 years ago E.O. Wilson said in a book that the two biggest issues we would confront in our immediate future would be many (1)immigrants leaving home countries in search of better opportunities for their families; and (2)wars for drinkable water.
posted by Postroad at 1:10 PM on March 6, 2013
Given the Greek economy, I wonder how many immigrants will either stay there or want to move there.
Refugees, both entering and being sent out of Europe, don't have much of a choice in Greece but to stay put until processed. Immigrants themselves are sending less money home, and are likely trying to get the hell out, provided that's even an economically viable option for them.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:17 PM on March 6, 2013
Refugees, both entering and being sent out of Europe, don't have much of a choice in Greece but to stay put until processed. Immigrants themselves are sending less money home, and are likely trying to get the hell out, provided that's even an economically viable option for them.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:17 PM on March 6, 2013
The Myth of Greek Ethnic 'Purity'
Not very relevant to this thread, but the site linked is not without an agenda.
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:28 PM on March 6, 2013
Not very relevant to this thread, but the site linked is not without an agenda.
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:28 PM on March 6, 2013
(But the question itsself is somewhat irrelevant - ethnic purity, real or imagined, is no excuse for being a racist asshole anyway)
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:32 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:32 PM on March 6, 2013
> Being Particularly Good at Creating and Maintaining Western Civilization For a Bit.
I like the capitalization and the possible book title.
Excuse me while I go update my LinkedIn profile.
posted by Brak at 1:40 PM on March 6, 2013
I like the capitalization and the possible book title.
Excuse me while I go update my LinkedIn profile.
posted by Brak at 1:40 PM on March 6, 2013
Just to clarify, it appears that the Grecian political party Golden Dawn (formed 1980) has little or nothing to do with the occultist organization The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (formed 1887). Also, judging by the Greek GD iconography, they are Nazi as a motherfuck.
posted by FatherDagon at 2:03 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by FatherDagon at 2:03 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hopefully the ghost of Aleister Crowley will rise from his infernal slumber and crush them all.
And now, here's a statement from the EU about the gathering steam of this movement:
Yeah, what the hell? Don't these assholes know that the name Golden Dawn has been done already?
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:19 PM on March 6, 2013
And now, here's a statement from the EU about the gathering steam of this movement:
Yeah, what the hell? Don't these assholes know that the name Golden Dawn has been done already?
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:19 PM on March 6, 2013
Yeah, what the hell? Don't these assholes know that the name Golden Dawn has been done already?
That was back in the good ol' days when all one had to worry about with them was their capes and cosmic foo foo.
posted by uraniumwilly at 3:12 PM on March 6, 2013
That was back in the good ol' days when all one had to worry about with them was their capes and cosmic foo foo.
posted by uraniumwilly at 3:12 PM on March 6, 2013
Fascists, neo-fascists, the occult and these guys are a constant matter of discussion at the Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff podcast. tl;dl historically there's been a lot of crossover.
posted by Artw at 3:20 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by Artw at 3:20 PM on March 6, 2013
That was back in the good ol' days when all one had to worry about with them was their capes and cosmic foo foo.
But lest we forget, Yeats, who was all about the capes and the cosmic foo foo, later wrote songs for the Blueshirts and said he admired Mussolini.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 3:32 PM on March 6, 2013
But lest we forget, Yeats, who was all about the capes and the cosmic foo foo, later wrote songs for the Blueshirts and said he admired Mussolini.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 3:32 PM on March 6, 2013
Pretty much the entire architecture of modern new age woo was laid down by William Dudley Pelley, who also founded the Silver Legion of America.
posted by Artw at 3:40 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 3:40 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
That said, the chances that Golden Dawn only have a vague idea what they are alluding to are pretty high.
posted by Artw at 3:41 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by Artw at 3:41 PM on March 6, 2013
I'm half-kidding, but I wonder if any Rosicrucian organization or maybe the corporate version of the (Hermetic Order of the) Golden Dawn (which is a US based non-profit) would have any standing to hassle the (Greek Fascist) Golden Dawn under the EU's IP protections should it try to disseminate its materials outside of Greece.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:03 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:03 PM on March 6, 2013
Pretty certain they were the subject of similar litigation themselves.
posted by Artw at 4:05 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by Artw at 4:05 PM on March 6, 2013
I would agree with a couple of the above comments that this is a symptom of European countries, in general. At least, that is my experience living in Germany, which is as progressive as they come in the EU! Not all people show this sentiment, of course, but there is definitely a backlash against immigration (especially Muslims and Eastern Europeans).
I was SHOCKED during the last election here at some of the signage from the NPD, Germany's resident right-wing extremist party. I was completely horrified to see signs like this: http://img5.imagebanana.com/img/3etff0d/npdPlakat.PNG which translates as something like "have a good flight home!". Caricatures of foreigners on a flying carpet. Ugh. Shit like that would be totally illegal in North America as being hate propaganda.
Ironically, in Germany people bitch about countries who don't "deserve" to be in the EU, like Greece.
posted by exquisite_deluxe at 4:05 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
I was SHOCKED during the last election here at some of the signage from the NPD, Germany's resident right-wing extremist party. I was completely horrified to see signs like this: http://img5.imagebanana.com/img/3etff0d/npdPlakat.PNG which translates as something like "have a good flight home!". Caricatures of foreigners on a flying carpet. Ugh. Shit like that would be totally illegal in North America as being hate propaganda.
Ironically, in Germany people bitch about countries who don't "deserve" to be in the EU, like Greece.
posted by exquisite_deluxe at 4:05 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Greece has to be in the EU if only for inventing the word Europe, but I can't exactly say it looks like inviting them was a good idea in retrospect.
posted by Artw at 4:07 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by Artw at 4:07 PM on March 6, 2013
Pretty certain they were the subject of similar litigation themselves.
Who was, the HoGC, Inc? Even if they were, they seem to have their mark registered with the USPTO; and although this is far beyond my area of familiarity my vague understanding is that provides some protection in the EU through WIPO.
There's also this one, which is also out of Florida, from 2011.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:17 PM on March 6, 2013
Who was, the HoGC, Inc? Even if they were, they seem to have their mark registered with the USPTO; and although this is far beyond my area of familiarity my vague understanding is that provides some protection in the EU through WIPO.
There's also this one, which is also out of Florida, from 2011.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:17 PM on March 6, 2013
Probably the same people, although if so apparently reorganized as a DBA. Artw, I think it's correct that someone ("The Supreme Grand Lodge of the Ancient and Mystical Order Rosae Crucis, Inc") is contesting the Florida HoGD's marks (or vice versa), but the status information is a little opaque to me.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:24 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:24 PM on March 6, 2013
Shit like that would be totally illegal in North America as being hate propaganda.
Bit of a derail, but at least in the southern part of North America (also known as the U.S.), shit like that would probably not be declared "illegal" by Federal or State governments. Private organizations or schools would be allowed to forbid its display on their campus/buildings, and private organizations that receive public money/grants might find their funding under threat if they distributed it. But at the core, hate propaganda is not illegal in the United States.
(Oh, checked your profile, you're Canadian. I don't mean to argue over who gets to set the standards for "North America".)
posted by benito.strauss at 4:39 PM on March 6, 2013
Bit of a derail, but at least in the southern part of North America (also known as the U.S.), shit like that would probably not be declared "illegal" by Federal or State governments. Private organizations or schools would be allowed to forbid its display on their campus/buildings, and private organizations that receive public money/grants might find their funding under threat if they distributed it. But at the core, hate propaganda is not illegal in the United States.
(Oh, checked your profile, you're Canadian. I don't mean to argue over who gets to set the standards for "North America".)
posted by benito.strauss at 4:39 PM on March 6, 2013
Might I note that if one believes the results of the Milgram and Stanford Prison experiments, ~ 65% of a normal population has the capacity to become a "Nazi" if the correct set of conditions exist.
Milgram's study tested (American) people's obedience to nominal authority, and the Stanford Prison study looked at abuse of authority. Neither of them had anything to do with ideology, and because they were social psychology studies, they're not generalizable to people outside of their original cultural context (the US a few decades ago). They're not relevant here because they weren't studying contemporary Greeks, and neither of the studies looked at political ideology at all.
The state of the Greek economy is probably very relevant to Greek's attitudes about immigrants, though. We don't need American social psych studies to understand that.
posted by nangar at 5:21 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Milgram's study tested (American) people's obedience to nominal authority, and the Stanford Prison study looked at abuse of authority. Neither of them had anything to do with ideology, and because they were social psychology studies, they're not generalizable to people outside of their original cultural context (the US a few decades ago). They're not relevant here because they weren't studying contemporary Greeks, and neither of the studies looked at political ideology at all.
The state of the Greek economy is probably very relevant to Greek's attitudes about immigrants, though. We don't need American social psych studies to understand that.
posted by nangar at 5:21 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Any idea what percentage of the economy in Greece is based on tourism? I wonder if tourist boycotts of countries that give lunatics like these this much power would do anything. More than likely, though, they'd probably be thrilled that they didn't have as many dirty foreigners coming through their pristine country.
I doubt it would accomplish anything. That, and if I decided to follow that sort of guideline (not visiting a country based on the racist assholes holding seats in the government), I wonder how many countries I'd have to cross off the list.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:50 PM on March 6, 2013
I doubt it would accomplish anything. That, and if I decided to follow that sort of guideline (not visiting a country based on the racist assholes holding seats in the government), I wonder how many countries I'd have to cross off the list.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:50 PM on March 6, 2013
Can't we just firebomb them now and save ourselves the heartache?
Reminds me of Manhattan:
Isaac Davis: Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Ya know? I read it in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, ya know, get some bricks and baseball bats, and really explain things to 'em.
Party Guest: There was this devastating satirical piece on that on the op-ed page of the Times, just devastating.
Isaac Davis: Whoa, whoa. A satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point of it.
Party Guest Helen: Oh, but really biting satire is always better than physical force.
Isaac Davis: No, physical force is always better with Nazis.
posted by Smedleyman at 6:36 PM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
Reminds me of Manhattan:
Isaac Davis: Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Ya know? I read it in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, ya know, get some bricks and baseball bats, and really explain things to 'em.
Party Guest: There was this devastating satirical piece on that on the op-ed page of the Times, just devastating.
Isaac Davis: Whoa, whoa. A satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point of it.
Party Guest Helen: Oh, but really biting satire is always better than physical force.
Isaac Davis: No, physical force is always better with Nazis.
posted by Smedleyman at 6:36 PM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
What is wrong with people?
posted by newdaddy at 7:48 PM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by newdaddy at 7:48 PM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
? I wonder if tourist boycotts of countries that give lunatics like these this much power would do anything.
Tourism in Greece allready so far down there would be no point, plus the GD-aligned police force keeps beating up tourists who look like immigrants.
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 PM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
Tourism in Greece allready so far down there would be no point, plus the GD-aligned police force keeps beating up tourists who look like immigrants.
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 PM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm seeing a lot of 'call to arms' posts (which I agree with wholeheartedly), does anyone have an idea of how Greece will get out of this crisis of morals and social fabric tearing without bloodshed?
posted by Slackermagee at 9:20 PM on March 6, 2013
posted by Slackermagee at 9:20 PM on March 6, 2013
This is the wages of austerity. In fact, this is the exact same cause as the rise of the Nazi party. Austerity forced on Germany to pay reparations for WWI
There is also a major anarchist movement, some of whom recently bombed a mall. So I think if you wanted to travel to Greece to fight fascists, you could probably find some locals interested in working with you. Provided the facists doesn't get to you first.
The eurozone was a terrible idea, and Greece is paying the price.
---
posted by delmoi at 11:26 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe just figure out a way to give jobs to and improve the quality of life of the majority of Greek citizens would be enough to neutralize these creeps.Good luck starting a company when you have to pay a 23% VAT on every transaction. And of course, that money doesn't go to help Greek citizens, it goes to pay back banks in larger European countries.
That would require civil war, and, most importantly, an organized, militarized opposition to Golden Dawn. A bunch of foreigners just going to Greece and fighting a Greek political party (however heinous) in the streets is unlikely to elicit much sympathy from common Greeks, and might well give ammunition to Golden Dawn itself.The interesting thing about Greece is that there are also major radical leftist groups as well, (The coalition of the left actually includes the Communist Organization of Greece for example). Presumably these groups would be willing to take on forigen activists, since these ideologies tend to support internationalism - but of course I have no idea.
There is also a major anarchist movement, some of whom recently bombed a mall. So I think if you wanted to travel to Greece to fight fascists, you could probably find some locals interested in working with you. Provided the facists doesn't get to you first.
Ironically, in Germany people bitch about countries who don't "deserve" to be in the EU, like Greece.It's because Greece is in the Eurozone, and can't print it's own currency and doesn't have it's own central bank that it's having all these problems.
(Turkey would be a good replacement)Only if they're interested in joining a continent wide suicide pact. Compare their GDP growth to other European countries, including the UK which has it's own currency but pushes austerity anyway. They're seeing 8, 9% GDP over the past couple years while Eurozone countries are stagnant or declining.
The eurozone was a terrible idea, and Greece is paying the price.
Milgram's study ... they're not generalizable to people outside of their original cultural context (the US a few decades ago).The Milgram experiment has been replicated various times and places. When I learned about it in school I remember hearing that it had been replicated around the world, but I can't find many references to it happening outside of the west.
---
Over 15 years ago E.O. Wilson said in a book that the two biggest issues we would confront in our immediate future would be many (1)immigrants leaving home countries in search of better opportunities for their families; and (2)wars for drinkable water.You know you can, like, recycle water right? What is it about all these people who claim wars will be fought over something that can be infinitely reused?
posted by delmoi at 11:26 PM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Good luck starting a company when you have to pay a 23% VAT on every transaction.
What? VAT doesn't work like that. It's basically a sales tax, where only the consumer, the last link in the chain, is paying the 23%.
And all other countries in Europe have VAT, including the Nordic countries with VAT up to 25%. I doubt that high VAT in itself contributes to the difficulties of starting a company.
posted by Harald74 at 12:24 AM on March 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
What? VAT doesn't work like that. It's basically a sales tax, where only the consumer, the last link in the chain, is paying the 23%.
And all other countries in Europe have VAT, including the Nordic countries with VAT up to 25%. I doubt that high VAT in itself contributes to the difficulties of starting a company.
posted by Harald74 at 12:24 AM on March 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
There is also a major anarchist movement,
The Greek Anarchist/Autonomist movement has a long history of anti-fascism, for instance staging anti-fascist motorcycle demo's (a little more context here. See also).
It is really worth bearing in mind Greece's experience under the Rule of the Colonels and the history of the Civil War (not to mention America's role in all that) to get some context.
posted by tallus at 1:14 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Greek Anarchist/Autonomist movement has a long history of anti-fascism, for instance staging anti-fascist motorcycle demo's (a little more context here. See also).
It is really worth bearing in mind Greece's experience under the Rule of the Colonels and the history of the Civil War (not to mention America's role in all that) to get some context.
posted by tallus at 1:14 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
What? VAT doesn't work like that. It's basically a sales tax, where only the consumer, the last link in the chain, is paying the 23%.The Value Added tax is supposed to apply at each link in the chain, to the increase in value added at that stage. It's not just tacked on at the store, like a sales tax.
posted by delmoi at 1:35 AM on March 7, 2013
The Value Added tax is supposed to apply at each link in the chain, to the increase in value added at that stage. It's not just tacked on at the store, like a sales tax.
Not quite true, or at least not true in the UK. VAT-registered businesses are required to add VAT where they sell goods and services that qualify for VAT (if you don't sell VAT qualifying stuff you don't bother registering, if you do sell VAT stuff you must register).
VAT is charged by VAT-registered businesses through the chain, but businesses claim back VAT they've paid against VAT they've added on goods/services they've sold.
posted by MuffinMan at 1:45 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not quite true, or at least not true in the UK. VAT-registered businesses are required to add VAT where they sell goods and services that qualify for VAT (if you don't sell VAT qualifying stuff you don't bother registering, if you do sell VAT stuff you must register).
VAT is charged by VAT-registered businesses through the chain, but businesses claim back VAT they've paid against VAT they've added on goods/services they've sold.
posted by MuffinMan at 1:45 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
What? VAT doesn't work like that. It's basically a sales tax, where only the consumer, the last link in the chain, is paying the 23%.
As you might imagine, this works wonders for sales.
posted by Dr Dracator at 3:05 AM on March 7, 2013
As you might imagine, this works wonders for sales.
posted by Dr Dracator at 3:05 AM on March 7, 2013
A handful of rabble-rousers shouting at each other in a cafe. What possible harm can come from them ?
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 3:05 AM on March 7, 2013
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 3:05 AM on March 7, 2013
As you might imagine, this works wonders for sales.
I wouldn't know, other than to observe that retail is still alive and kicking in northern Europe, despite high VAT.
posted by Harald74 at 3:28 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't know, other than to observe that retail is still alive and kicking in northern Europe, despite high VAT.
posted by Harald74 at 3:28 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
delmoi: "The Value Added tax is supposed to apply at each link in the chain, to the increase in value added at that stage."As MuffinMan says, this ends up not encumbering the business itself (as long as they can shift their inventory). If I, in my native country, need to buy €10 worth of goods from you to build a widget, I need to pay €2.50 VAT. I then sell my widget for €20, of which €4 is the VAT paid by the widget customer. I now have a positive VAT account of €1.50, which I need to settle with the tax authorities at the end of the fiscal year or something like that.
It's only if I can't sell my widget that my company ends up having to pay VAT by itself. (And even so, it would be offset by the fact that I can probably write off my losses.)
posted by brokkr at 3:30 AM on March 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
exquisite_deluxe: "Shit like that would be totally illegal in North America as being hate propaganda."To be fair to the Germans, a lot of people are working hard to get the NPD outlawed. Meanwhile, they put up their shit posters when an election is coming - but they make sure to mount them as high as possible (5-6 meters) on the lamp posts, because they know that otherwise they will be defaced in 5 seconds.
At the last local election here, one of the leftist parties then put up posters that simply said "liars have long ladders". Touché.
posted by brokkr at 3:41 AM on March 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Some version of this is happening in almost every European country, even the most progressive ones.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:01 PM on March 6
[citation needed]
posted by Decani
Decani, try reading some newspapers from the last 10 years, you'll find all the citations you need. If you're out of touch, that's your own failure. What part of "almost every" are you contesting? Beyond maybe a bit of hyperbole, it's not especially exaggerated.
At this point in time, isn't nazi regalia really just a way for people to scream 'HELP!'? Is it really what it's dressed up to be, or is it a way of saying, "We're desperate here!"?
I'm dumbfounded, but that's not a surprise. I don't comprehend the people that so quickly cleave to hate, and act like we've never had this problem before, we've never learned lessons and sworn "Never again!". It's a completely new and good idea to campaign in favor of hatred and racism. I can't comprehend this.
posted by Goofyy at 4:18 AM on March 7, 2013
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:01 PM on March 6
[citation needed]
posted by Decani
Decani, try reading some newspapers from the last 10 years, you'll find all the citations you need. If you're out of touch, that's your own failure. What part of "almost every" are you contesting? Beyond maybe a bit of hyperbole, it's not especially exaggerated.
At this point in time, isn't nazi regalia really just a way for people to scream 'HELP!'? Is it really what it's dressed up to be, or is it a way of saying, "We're desperate here!"?
I'm dumbfounded, but that's not a surprise. I don't comprehend the people that so quickly cleave to hate, and act like we've never had this problem before, we've never learned lessons and sworn "Never again!". It's a completely new and good idea to campaign in favor of hatred and racism. I can't comprehend this.
posted by Goofyy at 4:18 AM on March 7, 2013
A handful of rabble-rousers shouting at each other in a cafe. What possible harm can come from them ?
None.
It's when they hit the beer halls you have to worry.
posted by Mezentian at 5:27 AM on March 7, 2013
None.
It's when they hit the beer halls you have to worry.
posted by Mezentian at 5:27 AM on March 7, 2013
Given the Greek economy, I wonder how many immigrants will either stay there or want to move there.
Many recent immigrants ended up in Greece trying to reach other European countries with better economies and get stranded there due to the Dublin regulation. The regulation has been critisised to bits and some countries have suspended sending immigrants back to Greece because conditions are awful, but the regulation still stands. Some of the immigrants moved to Greece due to war e.g. a significant part of the Afghan community AFAIK, Iraqis, and, I suspect, Pakistanis.
Faced with difficult prospects in the current economic crisis, some of the foreign born in Greece — particularly the unauthorized, those who lack steady employment, and Albanians of retirement age — have decided to return to their countries of origin. Evidence also indicates an increase in movements on the part of Albanian migrants back to their country of origin at times when the seasonal labor market in Greece has contracted.
The rest of the foreign-born population, much like Greek citizens, appear to be waiting out the recession and trying to adjust to the new labor market conditions. These immigrants are likely bound to Greece by familial obligation, the high cost of return migration, or even worse conditions in their countries of origin.
does anyone have an idea of how Greece will get out of this crisis of morals and social fabric tearing without bloodshed?
By reducing unemployment and offering a way out to the country followed by some soul-searching on how neo-Nazis went from from 0.1% to 7% (and polling at 10%). There is also a party in the parliament whose leader is big on conspiracy theories. At this point, many people in Greece have no real prospects; the deficit has been improving, but it's going to be the sixth year of recession in a row, unemployment hovers around 26%, wages get depressed and about a third of the population might live in poverty. Young people who have the option have gone abroad, including yours truly, but this also worsens the situation by removing people with broader minds.
posted by ersatz at 5:59 AM on March 7, 2013 [8 favorites]
Many recent immigrants ended up in Greece trying to reach other European countries with better economies and get stranded there due to the Dublin regulation. The regulation has been critisised to bits and some countries have suspended sending immigrants back to Greece because conditions are awful, but the regulation still stands. Some of the immigrants moved to Greece due to war e.g. a significant part of the Afghan community AFAIK, Iraqis, and, I suspect, Pakistanis.
Faced with difficult prospects in the current economic crisis, some of the foreign born in Greece — particularly the unauthorized, those who lack steady employment, and Albanians of retirement age — have decided to return to their countries of origin. Evidence also indicates an increase in movements on the part of Albanian migrants back to their country of origin at times when the seasonal labor market in Greece has contracted.
The rest of the foreign-born population, much like Greek citizens, appear to be waiting out the recession and trying to adjust to the new labor market conditions. These immigrants are likely bound to Greece by familial obligation, the high cost of return migration, or even worse conditions in their countries of origin.
does anyone have an idea of how Greece will get out of this crisis of morals and social fabric tearing without bloodshed?
By reducing unemployment and offering a way out to the country followed by some soul-searching on how neo-Nazis went from from 0.1% to 7% (and polling at 10%). There is also a party in the parliament whose leader is big on conspiracy theories. At this point, many people in Greece have no real prospects; the deficit has been improving, but it's going to be the sixth year of recession in a row, unemployment hovers around 26%, wages get depressed and about a third of the population might live in poverty. Young people who have the option have gone abroad, including yours truly, but this also worsens the situation by removing people with broader minds.
posted by ersatz at 5:59 AM on March 7, 2013 [8 favorites]
This is the wages of austerity.
And the god-damned Dublin Regula-
oh hey ersatz!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:01 AM on March 7, 2013
And the god-damned Dublin Regula-
oh hey ersatz!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:01 AM on March 7, 2013
« Older \m/ ? | two girls, two cups Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by exhilaration at 11:41 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]