Just Switch the Pronouns
March 28, 2013 7:55 AM   Subscribe

 
Surprised Salt wasn't on here.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:01 AM on March 28, 2013 [9 favorites]


Salt was the first one that popped into my head and I'm sadly amazed there are five more where that one came from.
posted by padraigin at 8:03 AM on March 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


Sadly?
posted by entropicamericana at 8:05 AM on March 28, 2013


Surprised Flightplan falls into this category; after Panic Room, I'd just assumed someone made this movie with Jodie Foster in mind all along.
posted by chrominance at 8:06 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sadly, because this should be more common, right?
posted by padraigin at 8:07 AM on March 28, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yeah, I've only seen Flightplan in bits and pieces as part of a plan to make jury duty as insufferable as possible, but it seemed like it was made for Jodie Foster. Honestly, the whole "desperately seeking her lost daughter, mother who want give up" motif seems practically stereotypically female.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:10 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Wouldn't it be interesting if they routinely left casting open to anyone just to see if anything interesting happens? Not for every role, obviously; Brokeback Mountain probably works best with two male leads.

I love love love His Girl Friday and it's long past time I see it again. Is there anything recent that has similar snappy dialog?

And yeah, as far as I know, Flightplan was rewritten with Jodie Foster in mind.
posted by ODiV at 8:11 AM on March 28, 2013


There's something damning about how short this list is and that these five are probably the best examples.
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:13 AM on March 28, 2013


Wouldn't it be interesting if they routinely left casting open to anyone just to see if anything interesting happens?

I think it'd be even more interesting if they routinely left casting open to Sigourney Weaver for the same reason.
posted by griphus at 8:13 AM on March 28, 2013 [28 favorites]


Wow, I can't imagine doing the Orginal two guy version of HGF without some serious homosexual undertones to that bromance.

I had the gender flip Swift video as an FPP a million years ago cause nothing in that video makes sense unless it's some forbidden same sex Atrraction. Sorry swift, you're not a horrible untouchable, you're a leggy blonde.
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 AM on March 28, 2013 [4 favorites]


Originally [His Girl Friday] was a 1928 Broadway play called”The Front Page”about two best guy friends who were newspaper reporters. One friend, Hildy Johnson, decides he’s had enough, finds a nice girl, and plans to marry and movie to Albany and live a quiet life

This makes John Varley's Steel Beach make even more sense! In that book, Hildy changes sex about halfway through from man to woman. It works as part of the plot (or more accurately, several subplots) but was probably also a reference. Neat.
posted by DU at 8:15 AM on March 28, 2013 [6 favorites]


"This summer, Sigourney Weaver is an unruly teen who magically switches bodies with her mother, played by Jamie Lee Curtis!"
posted by ODiV at 8:15 AM on March 28, 2013 [20 favorites]


To my understanding, Dan O'Bannon did not specify the sex of any of the characters in Alien.
posted by cthuljew at 8:22 AM on March 28, 2013 [4 favorites]


"Fuck you. That's my name. You know why, mister? You drove a Hyundai to get here. I drove an eighty-thousand dollar power loader. THAT'S my name. Also it is Sigourney Weaver."
posted by griphus at 8:23 AM on March 28, 2013 [35 favorites]


This makes John Varley's Steel Beach make even more sense!

I don't think this sentence has ever been written before.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 8:25 AM on March 28, 2013 [6 favorites]


A couple more from the appropriate TV Tropes article: Amy Madigan as "McCoy," the ex-army sidekick in Streets of Fire, and Radha Mitchell as the questing parent in Silent Hill. As with Flightplan, the idea was that a mother-daughter bond would be more affecting.
posted by Iridic at 8:25 AM on March 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


There's something damning about how short this list is and that these five are probably the best examples.

How many films can you name that were female roles as written, but cast with men?
posted by dobbs at 8:31 AM on March 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


I don't think this sentence has ever been written before.

You didn't think it made sense? Read some of his other "Eight Worlds" books for background (many of which are gender bent, btw, so this is kinda on-topic). Also read Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress which I think Steel Beach is a clear response to.
posted by DU at 8:35 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sever in Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever was offered to Stallone but played by Lucy Liu.

Of course, Starbuck on Battlestar Gallactica was originally a man.

Hellen Mirren took over John Gielgud role in Arthur.

Jane Lynch's role in The 30-Year-Old Virgin was written for a man.

Weirdly, Blossom was originally written to be about a teenage boy.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:35 AM on March 28, 2013 [9 favorites]


There was a time when I was a teen in drama school when I seriously wondered whether it might be worth transitioning because it felt like all the best roles were written for men.

Obviously, that would have been a bad choice, as I'm not trans. But I still hold out the hope that one day I might get to play Hamlet. (And the world getting better, the fact that I don't act anymore will be the main barrier, not the ovaries.)
posted by jb at 8:35 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


How many films can you name that were female roles as written, but cast with men?

If I can do plays, literally everything produced in the Elizabethan era.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:36 AM on March 28, 2013 [14 favorites]


No mention of Wag the Dog? Huh.
posted by pxe2000 at 8:37 AM on March 28, 2013


Situations where men are literally playing female characters aren't quite the same.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:38 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


I can't see Salt flying at all with an Evan Salt instead of an Evelyn Salt in the title role, because of that scene where Salt just stands there and watches her husband drown. I can't imagine anyone making a movie in which a man does that to his wife.
posted by orange swan at 8:41 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


I can't see Salt flying at all with an Evan Salt instead of an Evelyn Salt in the title role, because of that scene where Salt just stands there and watches her husband drown. I can't imagine anyone making a movie in which a man does that to his wife.

When will Hollywood have the courage to make a movie about a man who kills his wife?
posted by mokin at 8:47 AM on March 28, 2013 [22 favorites]


His Girl Friday doesn't quite seem to be in the same category here. I mean, yes it is based on the The Front Page, but the screenplay was written completely with the idea of "hey, let's make this a romance." It's not like they wrote a gay-marriage plot and then cast Rosalind Russell in it at the last minute. If we're going to expand this to "original source material had a man in the role, but we cast a woman" I think the list gets a lot longer, but the point gets diluted.
posted by yoink at 8:56 AM on March 28, 2013


But I still hold out the hope that one day I might get to play Hamlet. (And the world getting better, the fact that I don't act anymore will be the main barrier, not the ovaries.)

Actually, there's something of a tradition of women playing Hamlet (exhibit A - Sarah Bernhardt). It's often done as a stunt-casting thing, though - basically "a woman in drag" playing a male character. The performer may be female, but Hamlet is still the prince of Denmark.

But I did work on a production of Hamlet where we genderflipped both the casting and the character - Hamlet was the Princess of Denmark. The production company was one of those Finding Good Roles For Women companies that crop up, and so we also had to genderflip smaller roles as well (Osric, Rosencrantz & Guildenstern) just because of the ensemble; but all the other major roles - Claudius, Gertrude, Laertes, Ophelia, Horatio - stayed their original genders. And it was all kinds of interesting; our Hamlet and Horatio used the chance to play all sorts of subtext in the Horatio/Hamlet relationship, and it was the first time I'd seen Polonius, Claudius and Gertrude play this scene for comedy.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:57 AM on March 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


Sigourney's role in The TV Set was orginally written for a man--they even kept the charater's name the same (Lenny).
posted by sexymofo at 8:59 AM on March 28, 2013


Oh, I just remembered: Julie Taymor's adaptation of The Tempest had Helen Mirren cast as Prospera, and, save for Russel Brand, it was wonderful.
posted by griphus at 9:01 AM on March 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


(Although that case is slightly different because of how conscious the choice behind that gender-switch was.)
posted by griphus at 9:03 AM on March 28, 2013


Sadly, because this should be more common, right?

I'm not clear on why. Certainly there are disparities in what kinds of roles are written for women, as well as the usual BS about salaries and ages and all that, but is the best way to address that to have gender-neutral casting? There are lots of roles written specifically for women.
posted by OmieWise at 9:05 AM on March 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


but is the best way to address that to have gender-neutral casting?

At what point does 'it would be cool if roles were more frequently gender-blind' turn into 'I ADVOCATE THAT THIS IS THE OPTIMAL SOLUTION TO PATRIARCHAL SOCIETY'
posted by shakespeherian at 9:08 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


There's something damning about how short this list is and that these five are probably the best examples.

Probably true but I should point out that this blog's particular style tends to limit all list-style posts to only the top five of the given topic.
posted by Doleful Creature at 9:11 AM on March 28, 2013


Wow, I can't imagine doing the Orginal two guy version of HGF without some serious homosexual undertones to that bromance.

Coming right up, Whelk: The Front Page.
posted by Longtime Listener at 9:11 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Not a movie, but Tina from Bob's Burgers was originally supposed to be a boy. (Tina, though, is voiced by a guy)
posted by drezdn at 9:13 AM on March 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


Sorry swift, you're not a horrible untouchable, you're a leggy blonde.

and at the end, she takes off the glasses and is all pretty-pretty.

Man I hate that video. Beyonce was robbed.
posted by jb at 9:13 AM on March 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


For the question about Jodie Foster and Flightplan, you have to realize that scripts get made only after a production team gets involved, and that production team's interest isn't always "telling a good story," but "selling tickets." And one of the ways you sell tickets is attaching a viable star to a project.

This is exactly what happened here. The movie was written/pitched in 1999 to Brian Grazer, who replaced the writer when Jodie Foster became attached (Grazer making a connection to Foster through their mutual collaborations with Mel Gibson).
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:14 AM on March 28, 2013


To my understanding, Dan O'Bannon did not specify the sex of any of the characters in Alien.

Yeah, that is what I have always read as well: the characters were only ever referred to by surname in the screenplay, which makes assertions like:

Sigourney Weaver’s role of Ripley in Alien was originally supposed to be played by a man, but Weaver was cast in the role instead
vaguely inaccurate. It is equally true that the role of e.g. Dallas (Tom Skerritt) was never specified to be a man either, but that it is not in any list anywhere.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:16 AM on March 28, 2013


There are lots of roles written specifically for women.

Lots, but it's 2-1 in favor of parts written for men.
posted by gladly at 9:21 AM on March 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


I can't imagine anyone making a movie in which a man does that to his wife.

Sadly, I think there's enough of it on the news.
posted by discopolo at 9:25 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


At what point does 'it would be cool if roles were more frequently gender-blind' turn into 'I ADVOCATE THAT THIS IS THE OPTIMAL SOLUTION TO PATRIARCHAL SOCIETY'

What? What about my comment makes you think I'm being shouty?
posted by OmieWise at 9:30 AM on March 28, 2013


Orlando is a good movie.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:31 AM on March 28, 2013 [9 favorites]


Honestly, the whole "desperately seeking her lost daughter, mother who want give up" motif seems practically stereotypically female.

If you take out Han Solo and Indiana Jones, Harrison Ford's career is like 90 percent "Give me back my family!" Mel Gibson has done it extensively as well.
posted by Etrigan at 9:32 AM on March 28, 2013 [7 favorites]


If you take out Han Solo and Indiana Jones, Harrison Ford's career is like 90 percent "Give me back my family!"

This is unfairly reductive. There's also a good bit of "Get off my airplane!" and "How dare you, sir!" and "My name is Henry. Regard me!"
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:41 AM on March 28, 2013 [25 favorites]


Not Without My Wookie
posted by Flashman at 9:44 AM on March 28, 2013 [35 favorites]


I haven't seen Flightplan, but I had previously understood that it was basically a loose remake of Bunny Lake Is Missing?

Also, there's apparently a trend now of remaking horror movies with female leads. The Thing prequel, The Evil Dead remake. I think one more that I can't recall at the moment?

Either way, my unserious pet theory is that lots of directors read Men, Women, and Chainsaws and decided that it was a how-to: that a horror movie wasn't a horror movie unless it had a Last Girl who was virginal, slightly-tomboyish girl, with an androgynous name.

See also: Scream, in which the wily Wes Craven went out of his way to (spoilers!) have the main character be a girl named Sid, while also actually letting her lose her virginity - to one of the killers, no less. It's also interesting that she saves her father, thereby undercutting the Woodcutter trope otherwise present in modern Hollywood story structure. Scream 4 is also sort of interesting in that Sid's ultimate victory is in not letting anyone make her a victim anymore.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:45 AM on March 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


This would be more heartening if the casting was actually gender-swapped and the two male best friends became, like, a male and female friendship, instead of the stories being rewritten to include a woman in a traditional gender role (wife, mother), which is hardly a big whoop. As it is, I feel like it almost doesn't count.

Except for Sigourney Weaver. Sigourney Weaver always counts.
posted by WidgetAlley at 9:53 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


I dunno, I'd be kinda into seeing it played by a pug and a parrot.

"RAWK, I can't quit you, Mr. Biscuits!" >>whistles<<
posted by emjaybee at 9:53 AM on March 28, 2013 [18 favorites]


What? What about my comment makes you think I'm being shouty?

I don't think you're being shouty, but I don't get why you jumped from people saying that X might be a good thing to asking 'What makes you think X is the very best possible way to do something?'
posted by shakespeherian at 10:01 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


I haven't seen Flightplan, but I had previously understood that it was basically a loose remake of Bunny Lake Is Missing?

Not seen Bunny Lake but Flightplan it is basically 'The Lady Vanishes' on a plane, only not nearly as good, and Foster replaces a central male-female duo.
posted by biffa at 10:04 AM on March 28, 2013


I think every thread needs more Atom Eyes and Flashman.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:05 AM on March 28, 2013


Coming right up, Whelk: The Front Page.

Billy Wilder also filmed a version in the '70s starring Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon.
posted by painquale at 10:05 AM on March 28, 2013


Of course, Starbuck on Battlestar Gallactica was originally a man.

And Boomer and Tigh were black, so a big step forward there.
posted by biffa at 10:07 AM on March 28, 2013


I don't think you're being shouty, but I don't get why you jumped from people saying that X might be a good thing to asking 'What makes you think X is the very best possible way to do something?'

I didn't think that was what I was doing. I thought I was asking why "it should be more common." One possibility would be that it might redress some issues in the industry, but my question was genuine and I recognize that there might be other reasons. I'm still not certain why, though. (And the only reason it merits a question from me at all is that the "sadly" in the original comment makes it seem like there is some sort of problem with it not happening more.)
posted by OmieWise at 10:10 AM on March 28, 2013


"This summer, Sigourney Weaver is an unruly teen who magically switches bodies with her mother, played by Jamie Lee Curtis!"

I'd pay to see that.
posted by MrGuilt at 10:21 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


For a counter-example, the movie Taxi was wrecked by casting Queen Latifah in the lead. The original French movie with a skinny geeky guy was a smash and led to multiple sequels there.
posted by w0mbat at 10:27 AM on March 28, 2013


I was totally going to write the same comment about Steel Beach, DU, so now Elementary Penguin can consider the sentence to have been written twice.
posted by BlueJae at 10:31 AM on March 28, 2013



There are lots of roles written specifically for women.


Lots of them are very one dimensional and sucky, too.
posted by sweetkid at 10:35 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well, sure. As are many of the roles written for men. This is not equivalent, obviously, because of sexism. So now I'm back to asking if this seems like the best way to address sexism in Hollywood?
posted by OmieWise at 10:41 AM on March 28, 2013


In the end, the way to get more and better roles for women is for a greater proportion of filmmakers to be women.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:44 AM on March 28, 2013 [7 favorites]


How many films can you name that were female roles as written, but cast with men?

Not sure how it was written, but Sean Penn replaced Jodie Foster in The Game.
posted by davidjmcgee at 10:51 AM on March 28, 2013


At one point, Vin Diesel was attached to play the villain in Terminator 3, but they cast Kristanna Loken instead.

Then again, at one point, I'm sure Terminator 3 wasn't supposed to suck either.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 10:54 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


The wife dragged me to see "Bridesmaids" and it was a much funnier movie when I pretended that the Melissa McCarthy character was actually played by Ricky Gervais.
posted to MetaFilter by Monkey0nCrack at 8:33 AM on March 25, 2013
posted by Monkey0nCrack at 10:54 AM on March 28, 2013


Also, Suture was a fantastic move, with a darker-skinned gentleman playing a Caucasian character. It works very well especially when the characters call it out and don't even take notice of it.
posted by Monkey0nCrack at 10:57 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Then again, at one point, I'm sure Terminator 3 wasn't supposed to suck either.

Terminator 3 only sucks if you think the later Planet of the Apes movies suck.

Which, of course, they do, but it a delightful way.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:01 AM on March 28, 2013


To my understanding, Dan O'Bannon did not specify the sex of any of the characters in Alien.

I'm looking at an early draft of the screenplay in front of me and it reads:
The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women.
A later draft reads:
The crew of the United States commercial starship Nostromo
[are] seated around a table ... Five men and two women: Lambert and Ripley.
posted by alby at 11:04 AM on March 28, 2013


Also, Suture was a fantastic move, with a darker-skinned gentleman playing a Caucasian character.

Have we forgotten about The Human Stain where Anthony Hopkins plays a black guy?
posted by alby at 11:05 AM on March 28, 2013


The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women.

I am now picturing Ridley Scott rifling around in a box marked "GENITALS - MISC."
posted by griphus at 11:06 AM on March 28, 2013 [6 favorites]


Not sure how it was written, but Sean Penn replaced Jodie Foster in The Game.

When I first read this comment I forgot that Sean Penn plays a relatively small role and I was was really disappointed that we didn't get The Game featuring Jodie Foster in the lead.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:16 AM on March 28, 2013


Friends working in the Australian film industry told me recently that there have been more Australian films made in the past five years with a dog or penguin as a main character than with a woman in the lead role. I haven't fact-checked that claim, but it feels about right.
posted by hot soup girl at 11:21 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Somewhat related, Peter Dinklage's role as hard-drinking mathematician/linguist Arthur Ramsey in Threshold was presumably not written specifically for a dwarf actor. His height is never alluded to.

It wasn't a very good show, so perhaps that was just accidental, but it must be pretty rare.
posted by figurant at 11:27 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Somewhat related, Peter Dinklage's role as hard-drinking mathematician/linguist Arthur Ramsey in Threshold was presumably not written specifically for a dwarf actor. His height is never alluded to.

In an unaired episode it is revealed that the same mutation responsible for Ramsey's dwarfism makes him immune from the alien virus.
posted by alby at 11:41 AM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


"left the character unchanged despite the change in sex" for Alien is a bit generous.

While it is a great strong character, I seriously doubt that the shuttle scene where they take great efforts to strip Sigourney Weaver down to a nipply tank top and panties, have her gratuitously stretch to flick random buttons, and then show her ass crack would have been filmed quite the same way if, say, Burt Reynolds played the lead.
posted by Muddler at 11:44 AM on March 28, 2013


In an unaired episode it is revealed that the same mutation responsible for Ramsey's dwarfism makes him immune from the alien virus.

Darnit. That pisses away the one thing that I really liked about that show. Although I'm guessing that later episodes were written long after casting was done.
posted by figurant at 11:49 AM on March 28, 2013


I can't imagine anyone making a movie in which a man does that to his wife.

Funny you should say that. I walked away with a completely different sense that the scene was meant for a male lead because women are supposed to be about love above all else in them Hollywood movies. So the gender switch was a really interesting statement.

Meanwhile, the theatrical release included a watered down version where it's not clear she would have been able to save him from getting shot because it happens so fast. The drowning version struck me as it was meant to be a "women in refrigerators" scene. Except because of the lead role change, it ended up being a man.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:52 AM on March 28, 2013


Terminator 3 wasn't supposed to suck either

T3 was always going to suck. I read during the filming of T2 that James Cameron was wearing a T-shirt that said "T3 without me," and he kept that promise. Jonathan Mostow simply didn't understand the franchise. All you need to understand that is the T3 director's DVD commentary, in which Mostow explains the background of Kristanna's entrance, stating "Of course our Terminator has to appear naked -- not sure why, but it's part of the franchise." This is of course explained in both T1 and in particular T2, where Arnie explains exactly why a Terminator of the T-X's capabilities can't travel through time.
posted by localroger at 12:02 PM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


I seriously doubt that the shuttle scene where they take great efforts to strip Sigourney Weaver down to a nipply tank top and panties, have her gratuitously stretch to flick random buttons, and then show her ass crack would have been filmed quite the same way if, say, Burt Reynolds played the lead

True, but what if it had been played by McConaughey, or Stallone, or Ewan McGregor?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:03 PM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Really surprised there's no mention of Jackie Brown here.

And yet there still isn't, and never will there be! Surprising!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:04 PM on March 28, 2013


I seriously doubt that the shuttle scene where they take great efforts to strip Sigourney Weaver down to a nipply tank top and panties, have her gratuitously stretch to flick random buttons, and then show her ass crack would have been filmed quite the same way if, say, Burt Reynolds played the lead.

Don't be so sure.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:15 PM on March 28, 2013


Oh, I just remembered: Julie Taymor's adaptation of The Tempest had Helen Mirren cast as Prospera, and, save for Russel Brand, it was wonderful.

I had to look up IMDB to make sure you weren't talking about the Arthur remake…which was terrible.
posted by cazoo at 12:18 PM on March 28, 2013


Don't be so sure.

Yeah, while I agree with the thesis, Burt Reynolds may not be the best illustration of the cheesecake-beefcake gap.
posted by griphus at 12:23 PM on March 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


Junior was originally supposed to have a female lead. But at that point in the development process it was just an educational film.
posted by theuninvitedguest at 12:36 PM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


The TV Tropes page is missing the movie Bee Season. In the (much better) original novel, the character of Chali, a mellow young Hare Krishna, is male. The powers that be who made the film apparently decided that it'd be much easier to convert a shy, questioning Jewish boy to Krishna Consciousness if his sponsor was wrapped in a sexy Kate Bosworth package.
posted by dlugoczaj at 12:43 PM on March 28, 2013


I keep wondering in my head what it would be like to do this to Guys and Dolls. I think it would be fun. Also a gay version would be pretty great.
posted by Doleful Creature at 12:48 PM on March 28, 2013


CCH Pounder's role in The Shield was originally written for a man.

I can't imagine anyone making a movie in which a man does that to his wife.
Jeff Bridges' character in White Squall watches his wife drown near the end of the film.
posted by jeffhoward at 12:58 PM on March 28, 2013


The best way I can enjoy Terminator 3 is by imagining it as a Terminator parody movie that happens to star Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Honestly, if they'd gone all the way in that direction with the camp, like left this scene in it, with several more like it, and kept all the 'splosions, it might have been fun enough to make up for the fact that it gets nearly EVERYTHING about Terminator canon wrong and in one single exchange, completely nullifies Terminator 2 entirely.

but I'll end this derail here because I will never shut up about Terminator
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 1:03 PM on March 28, 2013


I was able to enjoy Terminator 3 by thinking of it as a surprisingly competent Asylum version of Terminator that had no bearing whatsoever on the plot of the other two movies which happen, by complete coincidence, to share that title.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:19 PM on March 28, 2013


Metafilter: because I will never shut up about Terminator.
posted by emjaybee at 1:49 PM on March 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


Sadly, because this should be more common, right?

I'm not clear on why. Certainly there are disparities in what kinds of roles are written for women, as well as the usual BS about salaries and ages and all that, but is the best way to address that to have gender-neutral casting?

I agree that gender neutral is limited, how about writing better roles for women and not just making them play neutered men? Although "Alien" is of course a fantastic example of how this can work out well and is sometimes just the ticket.

This is somehow related to the case of the "ass kicking girl" played by an actress who doesn’t look like she could kick ass on a pile of puppies. How about getting a woman who can actually play the part instead of the cutest one in the room or whoever’s sleeping with the right person, or however that works? That doesn’t fly if it’s a man’s role. "Let’s get Ricky Gervais as the ninja assassin, he’s popular".
posted by bongo_x at 1:57 PM on March 28, 2013


I was just about mention Haywire cause damn, she totally looks like she could kick all the skinny Fassbender asses.
posted by The Whelk at 2:02 PM on March 28, 2013


(and she does, too)
posted by shakespeherian at 2:03 PM on March 28, 2013


That doesn’t fly if it’s a man’s role.

Tom Cruise?
posted by ODiV at 2:22 PM on March 28, 2013


How long does it take for Haywire to get good? I started it and it's kinda slow and got bored and wandered off. To be fair, that's more my failing than the film's.
posted by griphus at 2:24 PM on March 28, 2013


At about the 35 min mark when the actual story structure starts to reveal itself.
posted by The Whelk at 2:30 PM on March 28, 2013


At the zero second mark where it turns out Soderbergh made it.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:35 PM on March 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


And really, it's only because of the constant stream of action movies featuring dudes that we don't really question a male lead's ability to kick ass. It's like there's this "has penis = can take a beating and eventually overpower the bad guy" connection that gets made in our heads. Most of what goes on doesn't seem to have any real tie to their actual abilities.
posted by ODiV at 2:35 PM on March 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


And really, it's only because of the constant stream of action movies featuring dudes that we don't really question a male lead's ability to kick ass. It's like there's this "has penis = can take a beating and eventually overpower the bad guy" connection that gets made in our heads. Most of what goes on doesn't seem to have any real tie to their actual abilities.

I disagree. Men are known as being able to play action parts or not. There are hundreds of actors you would not cast as an action hero. It seems like for women it’s too often "just get some cute girl". I don’t know if they’re all seen as interchangeable, or the idea of a woman playing action is not taken seriously.

I really don’t know what Tom Cruise’s appeal is, but evidently it’s there for someone. And he’s not Woody Allen anyways.
posted by bongo_x at 2:49 PM on March 28, 2013




Woody Allen is the male equivalent you come up with for "some cute girl"?

Men are known as being able to play action parts or not.

There are a ton of male actors who were never thought of as action leads, until they were cast as one. Bruce Willis, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Hugh Jackman, etc.
posted by ODiV at 2:58 PM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


To this day I have not figured out who the target audience for Green Hornet was.
posted by griphus at 2:59 PM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]




Oh, I just remembered: Julie Taymor's adaptation of The Tempest had Helen Mirren cast as Prospera, and, save for Russel Brand, it was wonderful.

(Although that case is slightly different because of how conscious the choice behind that gender-switch was.)


Helen Mirren Talks To Simon Schama: The actress plays Prospera in Julie Taymor's gender-bent film version of The Tempest.
posted by homunculus at 3:04 PM on March 28, 2013


To this day I have not figured out who the target audience for Green Hornet was

Stoned Frenchmen.
posted by The Whelk at 3:14 PM on March 28, 2013


Oh, I just remembered: Julie Taymor's adaptation of The Tempest had Helen Mirren cast as Prospera, and, save for Russel Brand, it was wonderful.

Helen Mirren as Prospera is exquisite, and Russell kinda just gets by in the film. But if you check out the DVD extras, there is a clip of Russell's audition tape where he does a bizarre unhinged extended improvisation, and that bit is genius.
posted by ovvl at 3:21 PM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


How long does it take for Haywire to get good?

Only the action is good.
posted by stebulus at 4:27 PM on March 28, 2013


I was just doing music for a production of Oedipus Rex with a female lead (and a male Jocasta) and IMHO the play worked incredibly well that way, though a lot of the credit is due to the lead, Stephanie Regina(*), who really had the body language of "dominant male" down without any feeling of "drag" involved.

As a child, I remember being a little disconcerted when I first saw people of color in Shakespeare ("how could Gloucester be black?") - now of course I think nothing of it at all. If race isn't an issue in casting, I don't really see why gender should be.

And frankly, a lot of the plays are hoary with age. My wife commented, looking at people's bios, how the same plays and musicals are represented over and over again. Alternative casting could hardly fail to improve them.

(* - it's her real name - in fact, she didn't get why I found it funny till I explained it to her...)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:34 PM on March 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Ok, seriously, Haywire may have changed my desired career path.
posted by twiggy32 at 5:58 PM on March 28, 2013


You want to be a Marine-turned-freelance-secret-agent?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:01 PM on March 28, 2013


Hi!

I've been lurking for years, but I finally hand to take the plunge and join, because Julia Hoffman and Natalie Lambert, dammit.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:02 PM on March 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


Welcome to MeFi, TUM!
posted by homunculus at 6:08 PM on March 28, 2013


For extra, Orlando.
posted by chapps at 6:41 PM on March 28, 2013


I mean sorry, but this movie got me going. Excellent recommendation!
posted by twiggy32 at 6:50 PM on March 28, 2013


OMG, just saw the ending. Fuck yeah!
posted by twiggy32 at 6:53 PM on March 28, 2013


I was just doing music for a production of Oedipus Rex with a female lead (and a male Jocasta) and IMHO the play worked incredibly well that way, though a lot of the credit is due to the lead, Stephanie Regina(*), who really had the body language of "dominant male" down without any feeling of "drag" involved.

I'd love to see this kind of cross-casting, which is so common in live theatre, done on film. I have the feeling it would be harder to pull off without being distracting (similar to how when people burst into spontaneous song on screen, it seems corny and weird, but on stage it's totally natural). Anybody know any examples?

I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that the character of Captain Janeway from Star Trek: Voyager was originally created for a man, but now I can't find a cite. Does anybody else know anything about this? Am I making that up?

My memory of Janeway's character is that it was a good example of a strong female role: intelligent, capable, and strong without being icy, cruel, or repressed, and feminine without being overtly sexualized (or at least no more so than Captain Kirk, who certainly had his fair share of gratuitous shirt-ripping and sexy-humanoid-alien-smooching).
posted by Commander Rachek at 8:33 PM on March 28, 2013


Ooh, I just saw one case tonight that may sort of qualify - Tilda Swinton as the Angel Gabriel in Constantine.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:41 PM on March 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


Also, film is primarily visual while theatre is primarily aural (and in that aural quality we are listening to the language and cadence over the actual timbre of the voice speaking it.) It's much more difficult for cross-casting to not be distracting in film than on stage.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:20 PM on March 28, 2013


Am I making that up?

According to the people involved, they wrestled with the question of the captain's gender nearly to the last moment. Once they cast Genevieve Bujold, the character became female, and when she was canned they went to the runner-up actress, Kate Mulgrew, but there was still a possibility at that point that they would simply end up casting a man.

It wasn't so much "this is now the Star Trek with a woman captain, who will be the woman?" as "this is now the Star Trek where we will seriously consider, perhaps even prefer, women as the candidates for the role of captain".
posted by dhartung at 2:22 AM on March 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the original list is kind of lame, and Salt was the first film I thought of.

Also, if we're covering TV, David E. Kelley's done it a couple of times. Most recently with Kathy Bates in Harry's Law (another one of those cases where they don't bother changing the name after casting a woman instead of a man) but also years ago when he had Gina Gershon in some shortlived show I couldn't remember the name of. IMDB tells me it's Snoops, and again, it's unlikely they changed the character name for her, since it was Glenn.
posted by gadge emeritus at 7:11 AM on March 29, 2013


When will Hollywood have the courage to make a movie about a man who kills his wife?

I don't know why I'm compelled to point this out, but Salt doesn't kill her husband.
posted by ODiV at 11:57 AM on March 29, 2013


Two words: Lesley Crusher.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:50 PM on March 30, 2013


« Older Evolution: Maybe It's Not Just for the Fittest...   |   Recolouring the Dark Knight Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments