The Year in Hate and Extremism.
April 5, 2013 9:51 AM Subscribe
The Southern Poverty Law Centre has produced its annual synopsis.
The number of conspiracy-minded antigovernment “Patriot” groups reached an all-time high of 1,360 in 2012, while
the number of hard-core hate groups remained above 1,000.
Via Juan Cole: Congress Obsessed with American Muslims, Neglects real threat of White Supremacists.
The number of conspiracy-minded antigovernment “Patriot” groups reached an all-time high of 1,360 in 2012, while
the number of hard-core hate groups remained above 1,000.
Via Juan Cole: Congress Obsessed with American Muslims, Neglects real threat of White Supremacists.
Not to dismiss the framing of the findings out of hand, but I just want to point out that in my opinion this is not an "American" problem, and I'd be interested to see statistics on the rise of white supremacy globally.
posted by phaedon at 10:01 AM on April 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by phaedon at 10:01 AM on April 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'd imagine that the data on individuals is much, much harder to get. Groups can be counted by websites, tax records, non-profit status logs, political contribution disclosure regulations, and things like that. The groups themselves, however, have a vested interest in keeping the size of their membership secret, whether it's because they have 500 members in a 1000 person town and don't want to face possible investigation, or because it's just Jim Bob and Billy in the shed in the backyard and they want to seem more powerful than they are. Other means of gathering the data would be difficult as well, since most of the members are probably very unwilling to talk to the researchers, academics and organizations that are interested in them, since social scientists are sort of by definition against this sort of movement. It's an interesting research problem that I think SPLC deals with in the best method possible for the moment.
Also holy Jesus what world are these wingnuts living in. It's weird to think, "Good Lord, why are they letting this happen?" about Greece and then remember, oh wait, we have that here too.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:13 AM on April 5, 2013
Also holy Jesus what world are these wingnuts living in. It's weird to think, "Good Lord, why are they letting this happen?" about Greece and then remember, oh wait, we have that here too.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:13 AM on April 5, 2013
Related: How did neo-Nazi prison gangs become so powerful? The ADL has described the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas as “the most violent extremist group in the United States.” It has been responsible for at least 29 murders since 2000 and is thought to be behind the killing last week of Texas district attorney Mike McLelland, his wife Cynthia and McLelland's deputy, Mark Hasse, who was killed in January.
posted by MuffinMan at 10:22 AM on April 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by MuffinMan at 10:22 AM on April 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Congress Obsessed with American Muslims, Neglects real threat of White Supremacists.
I think the common thread there is "white".
posted by Thorzdad at 10:28 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think the common thread there is "white".
posted by Thorzdad at 10:28 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
too bad people have to think of themselves as being from races
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 10:31 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 10:31 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't see what Race has to do with it. Here in Indiana, there's a background noise of racism left over from white flight, etc... but the real issue isn't with our current President's race... it's the government's obvious preparations for the eventual death of the dollar. You can't get most types of ammo any more, as they are being bought up at unprecedented rates.
This of course feeds all sorts of theories, which would quickly died down if we had a government which had a better history, and was more fair and open. Since we can't trust it (the very reason for the Bill of Rights), one tends to believe all the theories of what they are planning.
Obama is doing what Bush did, but at an increased tempo. They're rushing to get things done while they still can. Race isn't the problem... it's just noise.
posted by MikeWarot at 10:36 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
This of course feeds all sorts of theories, which would quickly died down if we had a government which had a better history, and was more fair and open. Since we can't trust it (the very reason for the Bill of Rights), one tends to believe all the theories of what they are planning.
Obama is doing what Bush did, but at an increased tempo. They're rushing to get things done while they still can. Race isn't the problem... it's just noise.
posted by MikeWarot at 10:36 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
it's the government's obvious preparations for the eventual death of the dollar.
I beg your what the fuck?
posted by Tomorrowful at 10:38 AM on April 5, 2013 [44 favorites]
I beg your what the fuck?
posted by Tomorrowful at 10:38 AM on April 5, 2013 [44 favorites]
As one commenter at Juan Cole's site pointed out, if there were Muslim groups systematically killing law enforcement officials, the noise would be deafening. But it's white rednecks, so it's treated as just one of those things.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 10:39 AM on April 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 10:39 AM on April 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
Author David Neiwert, long-time observer of the extremist right, has a new book out that examines the current state of these groups while telling the story of a Minuteman-perpetrated double murder. And Hell Followed With Her: Crossing the Dark Side of the American Border is reviewed here by Susan Gardner.
posted by audi alteram partem at 10:41 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by audi alteram partem at 10:41 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Somewhat unrelated, but I have felt for some time that the SPLC desperately needs a name change. I know far too many people who, upon seeming something like this, would respond "yeah, but that's the South," completely ignorant of the fact that these numbers apply to the entire country and reflect a national trend.
So while I have a ton of respect for the work that the SPLC does, I think that by virtue of their own "brand," they unintentionally reinforce some of the negative stereotypes held by the rest of the country regarding the South.
posted by Whitall Tatum at 10:42 AM on April 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
So while I have a ton of respect for the work that the SPLC does, I think that by virtue of their own "brand," they unintentionally reinforce some of the negative stereotypes held by the rest of the country regarding the South.
posted by Whitall Tatum at 10:42 AM on April 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Obama is doing what Bush did, but at an increased tempo.
Assuming that is the case, can you explain why none of these groups were protesting when Bush was doing these things?
posted by Aizkolari at 10:45 AM on April 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
Assuming that is the case, can you explain why none of these groups were protesting when Bush was doing these things?
posted by Aizkolari at 10:45 AM on April 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
Also holy Jesus what world are these wingnuts living in. It's weird to think, "Good Lord, why are they letting this happen?" about Greece and then remember, oh wait, we have that here too.
While we live in the future where gay marriage is at the Supreme Court and stands a good chance of winning, in Georgia kids are fighting for an integrated prom. Let that sink in for a second: Integration is still a fight in some parts of the country (and it's not just the South).
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 10:46 AM on April 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
While we live in the future where gay marriage is at the Supreme Court and stands a good chance of winning, in Georgia kids are fighting for an integrated prom. Let that sink in for a second: Integration is still a fight in some parts of the country (and it's not just the South).
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 10:46 AM on April 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
...but the real issue isn't with our current President's race... it's the government's obvious preparations for the eventual death of the dollar.
The '90s are back! How I've missed you, conspiracy theory counter-culture...
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:47 AM on April 5, 2013 [11 favorites]
The '90s are back! How I've missed you, conspiracy theory counter-culture...
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:47 AM on April 5, 2013 [11 favorites]
As one commenter at Juan Cole's site pointed out, if there were Muslim groups systematically killing law enforcement officials, the noise would be deafening. But it's white rednecks, so it's treated as just one of those things.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 12:39 PM on April 5
^^^^This.
posted by goethean at 10:48 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 12:39 PM on April 5
^^^^This.
posted by goethean at 10:48 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
~ it's the government's obvious preparations for the eventual death of the dollar.
~I beg your what the fuck?
Ignore it. It's Indiana. It's where conspiracy theories go for vacation.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:49 AM on April 5, 2013
~I beg your what the fuck?
Ignore it. It's Indiana. It's where conspiracy theories go for vacation.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:49 AM on April 5, 2013
The SPLC hate list was apparently the inspiration for Floyd Lee Corkins shooting rampage and sandwich attack back in August. I wonder if he also actually made it on to the hate list that he used.
The shooter of an unarmed security guard at the Family Research Council headquarters last summer was on a mission to target organizations he viewed as anti-gay, and he obtained a gun days before he tried to carry out a plan to kill “as many people as possible,” according to newly disclosed court documents.
New details about Floyd Lee Corkins II emerged Wednesday in federal court, where he admitted to the politically motivated shooting at the conservative think tank in downtown Washington. Corkins, 28, pleaded guilty to three felony charges: a federal charge of transporting a firearm and ammunition across state lines and D.C. charges of assault with intent to kill and committing an act of terrorism while armed. WAPO
posted by otto42 at 10:51 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
The shooter of an unarmed security guard at the Family Research Council headquarters last summer was on a mission to target organizations he viewed as anti-gay, and he obtained a gun days before he tried to carry out a plan to kill “as many people as possible,” according to newly disclosed court documents.
New details about Floyd Lee Corkins II emerged Wednesday in federal court, where he admitted to the politically motivated shooting at the conservative think tank in downtown Washington. Corkins, 28, pleaded guilty to three felony charges: a federal charge of transporting a firearm and ammunition across state lines and D.C. charges of assault with intent to kill and committing an act of terrorism while armed. WAPO
posted by otto42 at 10:51 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
The American Family Association issued predictions for the future that included the claims that conservative Christians will be treated like African Americans before the civil rights movement, that the state will take charge of children at birth, and that cities with names like St. Petersburg will be forced to change their names.
Two hours before the deadline at the AFA:
"Let's see, we've got second class citizenship, enslavement of the first-borns, and uh... crap, we need a third thing. These lists only sound good if there's a third thing! Bobby-joe, what's a third thing?"
"A ***** will be president."
"That done happened, you idjit, give me something else!"
"Uh... all them religious type cities will got to get their names changed."
"Oh, ah, yeah, great, let's call that plan B and see if we don't think of something what's better."
posted by codacorolla at 10:55 AM on April 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
Two hours before the deadline at the AFA:
"Let's see, we've got second class citizenship, enslavement of the first-borns, and uh... crap, we need a third thing. These lists only sound good if there's a third thing! Bobby-joe, what's a third thing?"
"A ***** will be president."
"That done happened, you idjit, give me something else!"
"Uh... all them religious type cities will got to get their names changed."
"Oh, ah, yeah, great, let's call that plan B and see if we don't think of something what's better."
posted by codacorolla at 10:55 AM on April 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
If the most violent hate group in America is responsible for about 2.3 deaths a year, most of them other gang members and criminals, that's pretty good.
posted by stbalbach at 10:55 AM on April 5, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by stbalbach at 10:55 AM on April 5, 2013 [5 favorites]
The SPLC hate list was apparently the inspiration for Floyd Lee Corkins shooting rampage and sandwich attack back in August.
Number of people killed by unhinged lunatic with a gun who claimed to be a left-wing terrorist since 2000: 0
Number of people killed by one organized right-wing hate group since 2000: 29
I don't really see your point. Both sides are not equally bad.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:57 AM on April 5, 2013 [10 favorites]
Number of people killed by unhinged lunatic with a gun who claimed to be a left-wing terrorist since 2000: 0
Number of people killed by one organized right-wing hate group since 2000: 29
I don't really see your point. Both sides are not equally bad.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:57 AM on April 5, 2013 [10 favorites]
Ah yes. No need for me to set up a recurring gift, when this report comes out once a year to remind me to write them a check.
posted by Mayor West at 10:59 AM on April 5, 2013
posted by Mayor West at 10:59 AM on April 5, 2013
The people I see on Facebook who call themselves "patriots" are exclusively white, male, racist and gun owners. Some of the things they post (or used to, I've either unfriended or blocked most of them by now) scare the crap out of me and they're not even the craziest ones.
posted by tommasz at 11:14 AM on April 5, 2013
posted by tommasz at 11:14 AM on April 5, 2013
I'm going to a SPLC event here in Dallas on May 2 to hear an update on hate in America. They do a lot more than racial stuff, by the way.
As for the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas and their alleged recent foray into murdering DAs, from what I have read about these guys, they are just a bunch of "dumb ol' white boys who are meth cookers". Their racism is secondary to their desire to engage in the meth trade such that they are teaming up with Mexican cartels. It's pretty telling to me that these idiots are willing to betray their racial purity BS to advance their meth trade. The thing that is going to make them violent is not some race war. Rather, they primarily want to be able to cook up some meth and are willing to go to war for that. Hopefully their obvious stupidity is enough for them to get in the Feds crosshairs so they they can rid us of these damned fools.
posted by dios at 11:14 AM on April 5, 2013
As for the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas and their alleged recent foray into murdering DAs, from what I have read about these guys, they are just a bunch of "dumb ol' white boys who are meth cookers". Their racism is secondary to their desire to engage in the meth trade such that they are teaming up with Mexican cartels. It's pretty telling to me that these idiots are willing to betray their racial purity BS to advance their meth trade. The thing that is going to make them violent is not some race war. Rather, they primarily want to be able to cook up some meth and are willing to go to war for that. Hopefully their obvious stupidity is enough for them to get in the Feds crosshairs so they they can rid us of these damned fools.
posted by dios at 11:14 AM on April 5, 2013
So, which is worse: people getting high on methamphetamine, or racist gangs getting rich selling black-market methamphetamine and using the profits to buy guns?
We are going to see this pattern happen over and over again until we finally stop trying to solve drug problems by outlawing drugs.
posted by Mars Saxman at 11:30 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
We are going to see this pattern happen over and over again until we finally stop trying to solve drug problems by outlawing drugs.
posted by Mars Saxman at 11:30 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
The people I see on Facebook who call themselves "patriots" are exclusively white, male, racist and gun owners. Some of the things they post (or used to, I've either unfriended or blocked most of them by now) scare the crap out of me and they're not even the craziest ones.
Well, "patria" doesn't mean "fatherland" for nothin'.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:41 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well, "patria" doesn't mean "fatherland" for nothin'.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:41 AM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Number of people killed by unhinged lunatic with a gun who claimed to be a left-wing terrorist since 2000: 0
I don't follow these things to the level of keeping detailed records, but I'm curious where you got this statistic. Because just off the top of my head in recent memory, Christopher Dorner's manifesto was plainly "left-wing," and Floyd Corkins may not have killed anybody but that wasn't for lack of trying. And if casual-me can come up with those two from that recently, I have to think there's more that somebody knowledgeable could point out in the last thirteen years.
posted by cribcage at 12:02 PM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't follow these things to the level of keeping detailed records, but I'm curious where you got this statistic. Because just off the top of my head in recent memory, Christopher Dorner's manifesto was plainly "left-wing," and Floyd Corkins may not have killed anybody but that wasn't for lack of trying. And if casual-me can come up with those two from that recently, I have to think there's more that somebody knowledgeable could point out in the last thirteen years.
posted by cribcage at 12:02 PM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Dorner's murders were not politically-motivated, they were personal.
In any event, the point is that some folks are trying the "both sides do it" equivalency bullshit in order to prove stupid stuff like conservatives and/or white folks and/or men are the new oppressed peoples of the new United Socialist States of Amerika.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:08 PM on April 5, 2013
In any event, the point is that some folks are trying the "both sides do it" equivalency bullshit in order to prove stupid stuff like conservatives and/or white folks and/or men are the new oppressed peoples of the new United Socialist States of Amerika.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:08 PM on April 5, 2013
Did you read Dorner's manifesto? I did. He certainly intended to terrorize, and part of his motivation was explicitly political. It may have been more local-political than national-political, but still.
Regardless. Otto42 didn't say anything about white people being "oppressed," or socialism or "Amerika" or anything of the like, so unless you're referencing some older conversation with him I'm not sure what you're talking about. He pointed out that somebody had used the SPLC list for nefarious purposes. Heck, he didn't even say anything about "both sides" being equal. Are some of y'all such knee-jerk partisans that a mere mention of wrongdoing by a liberal triggers automatic attack-defense mode?
posted by cribcage at 12:17 PM on April 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Regardless. Otto42 didn't say anything about white people being "oppressed," or socialism or "Amerika" or anything of the like, so unless you're referencing some older conversation with him I'm not sure what you're talking about. He pointed out that somebody had used the SPLC list for nefarious purposes. Heck, he didn't even say anything about "both sides" being equal. Are some of y'all such knee-jerk partisans that a mere mention of wrongdoing by a liberal triggers automatic attack-defense mode?
posted by cribcage at 12:17 PM on April 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
What a deeply frustrating and completely pointless report. I could make that trend map with Google in about 30 seconds.
And if they can't even estimate group sizes then why the hell are they bothering? What *are* they measuring?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:19 PM on April 5, 2013
And if they can't even estimate group sizes then why the hell are they bothering? What *are* they measuring?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:19 PM on April 5, 2013
Somewhat unrelated, but I have felt for some time that the SPLC desperately needs a name change.
I agree, but for a different reason. I keep thinking they're a poverty law group - social assistance/disability, worker's comp, stuff like that.
That being said, there are very good reasons to keep a brand going for the name recognition even it's not perfectly accurate. And the SPLC does some great work, so wevs.
posted by Lemurrhea at 12:24 PM on April 5, 2013
I agree, but for a different reason. I keep thinking they're a poverty law group - social assistance/disability, worker's comp, stuff like that.
That being said, there are very good reasons to keep a brand going for the name recognition even it's not perfectly accurate. And the SPLC does some great work, so wevs.
posted by Lemurrhea at 12:24 PM on April 5, 2013
Did you read Dorner's manifesto? I did. He certainly intended to terrorize, and part of his motivation was explicitly political. It may have been more local-political than national-political, but still.
It was a personal vendetta, not an organized group like the SPLC is tracking.
Regardless. Otto42 didn't say anything about white people being "oppressed," or socialism or "Amerika" or anything of the like, so unless you're referencing some older conversation with him I'm not sure what you're talking about. He pointed out that somebody had used the SPLC list for nefarious purposes. Heck, he didn't even say anything about "both sides" being equal. Are some of y'all such knee-jerk partisans that a mere mention of wrongdoing by a liberal triggers automatic attack-defense mode?
When someone brings in an instance of a single person doing something in a discussion about tracking of groups, the bullshit detector starts to ring. When they do it with the same tactics and language (gee, why wasn't this random guy who has a problem with hate groups on a hate group list, hmmmm?) as the people that engage in the equivalency game, it rings a lot louder. It's not "knee-jerk partisanship" to point out that sympathizing with an actual hate group because of a single incident is more than a little hinky.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:30 PM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
It was a personal vendetta, not an organized group like the SPLC is tracking.
Regardless. Otto42 didn't say anything about white people being "oppressed," or socialism or "Amerika" or anything of the like, so unless you're referencing some older conversation with him I'm not sure what you're talking about. He pointed out that somebody had used the SPLC list for nefarious purposes. Heck, he didn't even say anything about "both sides" being equal. Are some of y'all such knee-jerk partisans that a mere mention of wrongdoing by a liberal triggers automatic attack-defense mode?
When someone brings in an instance of a single person doing something in a discussion about tracking of groups, the bullshit detector starts to ring. When they do it with the same tactics and language (gee, why wasn't this random guy who has a problem with hate groups on a hate group list, hmmmm?) as the people that engage in the equivalency game, it rings a lot louder. It's not "knee-jerk partisanship" to point out that sympathizing with an actual hate group because of a single incident is more than a little hinky.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:30 PM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
No, but it is indicative of knee-jerk partisanship to respond as if somebody has sympathized with a hate group when that isn't at all what happened.
posted by cribcage at 12:36 PM on April 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by cribcage at 12:36 PM on April 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
I could make that trend map with Google in about 30 seconds.
Really? Because, seriously, no offense meant, but I don't think you could. I mean, that is, I'm sure you could figure out that more people are Googling, "racist group!" or whatever from Trends, but SPLC actually tracks their group names and information. To give you a clue on how difficult that it is, it took me more than a month to track down all the poverty-minded community agencies within my surrounding three counties. There simply aren't good aggregated repositories of this information, at least that I'm aware of, unless you are looking at very narrow slices (for instance, 501(c)3 paperwork, which covers only non-profits.) The fact that they track it year after year is, I'm sure, very tedious and very boring work, but it is also very impressive. This is an end-of-year report and therefore is pretty broad, but that's hardly all that they do. Plus, if we know where they are and what they're called, we can do a little bit better of a job of keeping an eye on them.
And if they can't even estimate group sizes then why the hell are they bothering? What *are* they measuring?
Well, the problem is that right now there is no feasible way to estimate group size, at least as far as this admittedly junior social scientist can tell (see comment above.) But at the bare minimum, assuming that each group is run by one person alone, they are measuring the number of people who are so upset about immigration policy, gun reform, race relations, etc., that they have actually gone to the trouble to try to form a club about it. This is, I would imagine, a much more reliable measure of the political climate than simply counting the number of people who Google. Lots of people Google, but that is not a good proxy for commitment to a political view. Actually going to the trouble to publicize your group in some way that can be tracked, whether it's making a website or getting a PO Box or graffiti'ing the DA's office or killing the next person who looks like an illegal immigrant who walks by, whatever, is also not a particularly great measure of commitment because there is a big gap in effort between some of those. But it at least measures commitment in a way that Googling does not. So that's what they're doing and why they're tracking it. And then you can take that data and compare it to other things over time; for instance, if unemployment goes up in a particular state, does the number of hate groups also go up?
So yeah, it's far from perfect, but sometimes we need to know things about social systems that are inherently secretive or difficult to study. When that happens, we have to find clever ways to measure stuff that might be far from perfect but it way better than no data at all.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:49 PM on April 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
Really? Because, seriously, no offense meant, but I don't think you could. I mean, that is, I'm sure you could figure out that more people are Googling, "racist group!" or whatever from Trends, but SPLC actually tracks their group names and information. To give you a clue on how difficult that it is, it took me more than a month to track down all the poverty-minded community agencies within my surrounding three counties. There simply aren't good aggregated repositories of this information, at least that I'm aware of, unless you are looking at very narrow slices (for instance, 501(c)3 paperwork, which covers only non-profits.) The fact that they track it year after year is, I'm sure, very tedious and very boring work, but it is also very impressive. This is an end-of-year report and therefore is pretty broad, but that's hardly all that they do. Plus, if we know where they are and what they're called, we can do a little bit better of a job of keeping an eye on them.
And if they can't even estimate group sizes then why the hell are they bothering? What *are* they measuring?
Well, the problem is that right now there is no feasible way to estimate group size, at least as far as this admittedly junior social scientist can tell (see comment above.) But at the bare minimum, assuming that each group is run by one person alone, they are measuring the number of people who are so upset about immigration policy, gun reform, race relations, etc., that they have actually gone to the trouble to try to form a club about it. This is, I would imagine, a much more reliable measure of the political climate than simply counting the number of people who Google. Lots of people Google, but that is not a good proxy for commitment to a political view. Actually going to the trouble to publicize your group in some way that can be tracked, whether it's making a website or getting a PO Box or graffiti'ing the DA's office or killing the next person who looks like an illegal immigrant who walks by, whatever, is also not a particularly great measure of commitment because there is a big gap in effort between some of those. But it at least measures commitment in a way that Googling does not. So that's what they're doing and why they're tracking it. And then you can take that data and compare it to other things over time; for instance, if unemployment goes up in a particular state, does the number of hate groups also go up?
So yeah, it's far from perfect, but sometimes we need to know things about social systems that are inherently secretive or difficult to study. When that happens, we have to find clever ways to measure stuff that might be far from perfect but it way better than no data at all.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:49 PM on April 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
When someone brings in an instance of a single person doing something in a discussion about tracking of groups, the bullshit detector starts to ring. When they do it with the same tactics and language (gee, why wasn't this random guy who has a problem with hate groups on a hate group list, hmmmm?) as the people that engage in the equivalency game, it rings a lot louder. It's not "knee-jerk partisanship" to point out that sympathizing with an actual hate group because of a single incident is more than a little hinky.
As posted on the SPLC website:
These instances of oppression and violence are all clearly the work of organized and rabid white wing hate groups rather than the actions everyday nut jobs, bored teens, hostile drunks, meth freaks, mean neighbors, the "victims" themselves occasionally, and other assorted idiots and malcontents.
Whereas the SPLC report tries to leave the reader with the impression that instances of hate is indicative of a widespread proclivity of conservative groups to engage in violence, the list below from its own website is certainly more suggestive that there is little in the way of any organized effort and that individually there are a lot of assholes out there.
Louisville, KY
A swastika was drawn on a gay rights activist's car, which was also sideswiped.
Type: Vandalism
Reported: 03/23/2013
Davis, CA
A gay man was allegedly beaten on the street by a man who yelled anti- gay slurs. Clayton Daniel Garzón, 19, was charged with battery with serious bodily injury, assault with means of force likely to produce great bodily injury and threats to commit a crime resulting in great bodily injury.
Type: Assault
Reported: 03/20/2013
Sacramento, CA
A man was allegedly attacked by two men who used anti-gay slurs. One of the men allegedly beat the victim with a baseball bat.
Type: Assault
Reported: 03/17/2013
Chesterfield, VA
Racial slurs were painted on a black family's house that was then set afire.
Type: Arson
Reported: 03/15/2013
Oakwood, OH
Swastikas and the words `Go away Jew` were painted on a Jewish family's residence in the second incident in three weeks.
Type: Vandalism
Reported: 03/08/2013
Green Bay, WI
A convenience store owned by a Sikh American was set afire on the seven-month anniversary of a deadly shooting at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek. James Parrish, 53, faces charges of arson with a hate crime modification, first-degree recklessly endangering safety and carrying a concealed weapon.
Type: Arson
Reported: 03/05/2013
posted by otto42 at 12:56 PM on April 5, 2013
As posted on the SPLC website:
These instances of oppression and violence are all clearly the work of organized and rabid white wing hate groups rather than the actions everyday nut jobs, bored teens, hostile drunks, meth freaks, mean neighbors, the "victims" themselves occasionally, and other assorted idiots and malcontents.
Whereas the SPLC report tries to leave the reader with the impression that instances of hate is indicative of a widespread proclivity of conservative groups to engage in violence, the list below from its own website is certainly more suggestive that there is little in the way of any organized effort and that individually there are a lot of assholes out there.
Louisville, KY
A swastika was drawn on a gay rights activist's car, which was also sideswiped.
Type: Vandalism
Reported: 03/23/2013
Davis, CA
A gay man was allegedly beaten on the street by a man who yelled anti- gay slurs. Clayton Daniel Garzón, 19, was charged with battery with serious bodily injury, assault with means of force likely to produce great bodily injury and threats to commit a crime resulting in great bodily injury.
Type: Assault
Reported: 03/20/2013
Sacramento, CA
A man was allegedly attacked by two men who used anti-gay slurs. One of the men allegedly beat the victim with a baseball bat.
Type: Assault
Reported: 03/17/2013
Chesterfield, VA
Racial slurs were painted on a black family's house that was then set afire.
Type: Arson
Reported: 03/15/2013
Oakwood, OH
Swastikas and the words `Go away Jew` were painted on a Jewish family's residence in the second incident in three weeks.
Type: Vandalism
Reported: 03/08/2013
Green Bay, WI
A convenience store owned by a Sikh American was set afire on the seven-month anniversary of a deadly shooting at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek. James Parrish, 53, faces charges of arson with a hate crime modification, first-degree recklessly endangering safety and carrying a concealed weapon.
Type: Arson
Reported: 03/05/2013
posted by otto42 at 12:56 PM on April 5, 2013
There's also the teensy little matter that white christians aren't a persecuted minority. You can generally go about your day without worrying that a Sikh will set your business on fire because you're a Scotts-Irish Pentecostal. With limited resources, priorities must be set, and I'm sorry you're offended that you're not one of them. If you want to worry that someone will shoot you and leave a chicken sandwich on your corpse, go right ahead. I agree the SPLC is not set up to protect you from that, or to ensure that white conservatives are treated with all due respect by minorities and Democrats.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:07 PM on April 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:07 PM on April 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
You're certainly not doing yourself any favors here, what with the conflating of incidents with groups (hint: the report was about the latter), explicit victim-blaming, and a fairly comprehensive white-washing of actual organized efforts as if they were almost all individual unconnected cases.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:09 PM on April 5, 2013
posted by zombieflanders at 1:09 PM on April 5, 2013
The SPLC's list is a joke, not helpful to people on or off the list or to law enforcement. It's good marketing, though, for funding their more substantial services.
posted by michaelh at 1:14 PM on April 5, 2013
posted by michaelh at 1:14 PM on April 5, 2013
michaelh would explain that remark please.
For those that live in the US; you might want to check out the Hate Map. For those keeping score California wins (82) followed by Texas (62) and Florida (59).
posted by adamvasco at 1:25 PM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
For those that live in the US; you might want to check out the Hate Map. For those keeping score California wins (82) followed by Texas (62) and Florida (59).
posted by adamvasco at 1:25 PM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
27 Groups in Illinois.
I hate Illinois Nazis.
posted by otto42 at 1:34 PM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I hate Illinois Nazis.
posted by otto42 at 1:34 PM on April 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
A different take on the murder of Tom Clements:
‘He Was Freaking’: Friend Says Clements Suspect Flailed from Years of Isolation. Former inmate dismisses gang-hit theory in shooting death of Colorado Corrections chief
Colorado Independent: Suspect in Killing of Prisons Chief Tormented by Years of Solitary Confinement
posted by homunculus at 4:22 PM on April 5, 2013
‘He Was Freaking’: Friend Says Clements Suspect Flailed from Years of Isolation. Former inmate dismisses gang-hit theory in shooting death of Colorado Corrections chief
Colorado Independent: Suspect in Killing of Prisons Chief Tormented by Years of Solitary Confinement
posted by homunculus at 4:22 PM on April 5, 2013
otto42: Is it clear from the site that the incidents you quote are the same as the incidents they refer to as "clearly the work of organized… hate groups." If so, yeah, that's pretty damning– most of those incidents sure do look like they could have been a single person. Or are they two separate things?
zombieflanders, what victim blaming are you referring to? I don't see anything like that above, but perhaps a comment was deleted?
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 9:43 PM on April 5, 2013
zombieflanders, what victim blaming are you referring to? I don't see anything like that above, but perhaps a comment was deleted?
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 9:43 PM on April 5, 2013
Given what happened in 1994 in Oklahoma City, and the fact that the SPLC is tracking a rise in hate groups and patriot groups that is hauntingly similar to the early '90s, I think it's dangerous to sit there and dismiss these reports. Quibbling over specific hate crimes isn't the problem; the issue is that the government is wasting time and money getting Muslim men to join in fake terrorist attacks so they can be arrested while actual hate groups are organizing in disturbing numbers. The atmosphere is definitely one where another white supremacist terrorist attack is conceivable.
posted by graymouser at 1:35 AM on April 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by graymouser at 1:35 AM on April 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
There's also the teensy little matter that white christians aren't a persecuted minority. You can generally go about your day without worrying that a Sikh will set your business on fire because you're a Scotts-Irish Pentecostal. With limited resources, priorities must be set, and I'm sorry you're offended that you're not one of them.
So numbers trump principle? Because, you know - equal justice under law. Which should cover both the the FBI reported 16.3% anti-white hate crimes as well as the 4.8% anti-asian hate crimes. (Yes, I know, whites have relative safety in number - doesn't mean we should ignore it when someone shoots into that crowd.)
Which raises the question, where are the SPLC getting their data? And in setting priorities for entering a few lines of data, what sorts of thing won't make the cut? If, as you suggest, they are being deliberately tendentious, they owe us the courtesy of explaining how.
posted by IndigoJones at 8:35 AM on April 6, 2013
So numbers trump principle? Because, you know - equal justice under law. Which should cover both the the FBI reported 16.3% anti-white hate crimes as well as the 4.8% anti-asian hate crimes. (Yes, I know, whites have relative safety in number - doesn't mean we should ignore it when someone shoots into that crowd.)
Which raises the question, where are the SPLC getting their data? And in setting priorities for entering a few lines of data, what sorts of thing won't make the cut? If, as you suggest, they are being deliberately tendentious, they owe us the courtesy of explaining how.
posted by IndigoJones at 8:35 AM on April 6, 2013
Southern Poverty Law Center: Right-Wing Hate Rises Along With Obama. SPLC’s Mark Potok talks to Kevin Fallon about shifting demography and the explosive growth of “Patriot” groups under President Obama.
posted by homunculus at 9:47 AM on April 6, 2013
posted by homunculus at 9:47 AM on April 6, 2013
Mod note: Moderator here - a couple of comments deleted. Linking to white nationalist sites is not something we do here. If you are not trolling, make an effort to look like it.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:02 AM on April 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:02 AM on April 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
Family Research Council Exec Praises Michele Bachmann Anti-Muslim Campaign
posted by homunculus at 10:06 AM on April 6, 2013
posted by homunculus at 10:06 AM on April 6, 2013
So numbers trump principle? Because, you know - equal justice under law.
No, not really.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:16 AM on April 6, 2013
No, not really.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:16 AM on April 6, 2013
Er, Slap*Happy, you're saying that unequal justice is a good thing and something we should strive for? Or is this one of those "they do bad things, therefore we should do bad things too" arguments?
posted by hattifattener at 2:07 PM on April 6, 2013
posted by hattifattener at 2:07 PM on April 6, 2013
No. I'm saying there is, currently, no equal justice under the law. This is a societal problem, and one which the SPLC is attempting to address. Resources must be apportioned to where the injustice is greatest, and the harm most profound.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:28 PM on April 6, 2013
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:28 PM on April 6, 2013
michaelh would explain that remark please.
Adamvasco, sure.
The SPLC's list is a joke,
That is, you should not allow it to affect you as if it is serious and useful. It's not meant is a joke by the SPLC, but it is meant to persuade people to a certain way of thinking at the expense of providing useful, factual information.
not helpful to people on or off the list
Not helpful to people on the list because it doesn't engage them in any useful dialog, rather alienates them, if they should be on it, and if they shouldn't be on it, then the SPLC looks foolish to those people.
Not helpful to people off the list because it changes so few marginal decisions to sell to a certain group, have relations with them, etc. And as a body of statistical/data work it's very much lacking, as others have pointed out in this thread.
or to law enforcement.
Law enforcement agencies already have their own lists of actual criminals and potential criminals within their jurisdictions. The SPLC might occasionally perform as a squeaky wheel to get attention directed towards a group, but it won't be a marginal group that wouldn't have been known without the list.
It's good marketing, though,
That is, the purpose of the list is to persuade people to take an action rather than to provide them with factual information - a more fair restatement of the joke comment, admittedly. It also exists to get the SPLC in newspapers regularly to indirectly drive donations, i.e. it is PR, which is part of marketing
for funding their more substantial services.
SPLC offers other services that, due to their costing the time of lawyers and such, are more fact-based and limited in their ambition, ergo substantial. These services require donations and the list generates visibility which leads to donations.
posted by michaelh at 10:59 PM on April 7, 2013
Adamvasco, sure.
The SPLC's list is a joke,
That is, you should not allow it to affect you as if it is serious and useful. It's not meant is a joke by the SPLC, but it is meant to persuade people to a certain way of thinking at the expense of providing useful, factual information.
not helpful to people on or off the list
Not helpful to people on the list because it doesn't engage them in any useful dialog, rather alienates them, if they should be on it, and if they shouldn't be on it, then the SPLC looks foolish to those people.
Not helpful to people off the list because it changes so few marginal decisions to sell to a certain group, have relations with them, etc. And as a body of statistical/data work it's very much lacking, as others have pointed out in this thread.
or to law enforcement.
Law enforcement agencies already have their own lists of actual criminals and potential criminals within their jurisdictions. The SPLC might occasionally perform as a squeaky wheel to get attention directed towards a group, but it won't be a marginal group that wouldn't have been known without the list.
It's good marketing, though,
That is, the purpose of the list is to persuade people to take an action rather than to provide them with factual information - a more fair restatement of the joke comment, admittedly. It also exists to get the SPLC in newspapers regularly to indirectly drive donations, i.e. it is PR, which is part of marketing
for funding their more substantial services.
SPLC offers other services that, due to their costing the time of lawyers and such, are more fact-based and limited in their ambition, ergo substantial. These services require donations and the list generates visibility which leads to donations.
posted by michaelh at 10:59 PM on April 7, 2013
I think here you are attacking the messenger, the SPLC and ignoring the message.
Is there any other outfit that regularly shines a light on the murkey underbelly of white american extremism which seems to be given a gloss over by many of your principal lobbying groups and even some of your elected politicians?
As has been pointed out in the other part of the FPP
''Congress Obsessed with American Muslims, Neglects real threat of White Supremacists''.
So here you are telling us that SPLC is a joke because they do not engage in discourse only provide basic information which as far as I know is not collected and published elsewhere.(please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not an American). For foreigners such as myself and I daresay many Americans, SPLC seems to provide a valuable and interesting, if not slightly disturbing insight as to just how nasty and fucked up part of your nation is.
If you then factor in the right wing christian and dominionist movements you could, like myself begin to think that there could maybe be a connection here which has yet to be fully investigated. (*Takes off tinfoil hat*). So good on the SPLC for doing their bit to shine a bit of light on very polluted and murkey waters.
posted by adamvasco at 7:36 PM on April 9, 2013
Is there any other outfit that regularly shines a light on the murkey underbelly of white american extremism which seems to be given a gloss over by many of your principal lobbying groups and even some of your elected politicians?
As has been pointed out in the other part of the FPP
''Congress Obsessed with American Muslims, Neglects real threat of White Supremacists''.
So here you are telling us that SPLC is a joke because they do not engage in discourse only provide basic information which as far as I know is not collected and published elsewhere.(please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not an American). For foreigners such as myself and I daresay many Americans, SPLC seems to provide a valuable and interesting, if not slightly disturbing insight as to just how nasty and fucked up part of your nation is.
If you then factor in the right wing christian and dominionist movements you could, like myself begin to think that there could maybe be a connection here which has yet to be fully investigated. (*Takes off tinfoil hat*). So good on the SPLC for doing their bit to shine a bit of light on very polluted and murkey waters.
posted by adamvasco at 7:36 PM on April 9, 2013
Orcinus is a blog which keeps a pretty close watch on the extreme right.
posted by adamvasco at 7:26 AM on April 25, 2013
posted by adamvasco at 7:26 AM on April 25, 2013
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posted by Tomorrowful at 9:55 AM on April 5, 2013 [6 favorites]