TrueRedditDrama vs DepthHub
May 14, 2013 2:35 AM Subscribe
Finding SRSsucks, that's easy. Finding SRS, not so much.
posted by jaduncan at 2:42 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 2:42 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I was wondering about that too-- the first sub I looked for was ShitRedditSays. I think it was eliminated as having a degree greater than 75? Whatever that means? It's especially odd since /r/ModerationLog, which automatically reposts everything that gets posted in whole bunch of political subreddits, is still on there, and that really clutters up the place-- it's not like it's a bunch of users reposting that; it's just a single bot that's making one degree of separation between almost all the major political subs.
I'm confused as to whether what we're seeing is things connected by crossposting (either by the same user or by two different users) or interreddit links between different subs. I'm pretty sure that we're talking about the latter, especially given the inclusion of /r/ModerationLog. It's possible that it's some combination of both, too.
I thought it was interesting how the Fempire (subs affiliated with ShitRedditSays) subs tended to cluster with the anti-SRS stuff. I thought it was particularly funny how SRSMythos, a sub that chronicles people's conspiracy theories regarding SRS, was linked to a bunch of anti-SRS subs and /r/starcraft.
It's an interesting-- and certainly quite beautiful-- visualization, but I'd like to see exactly what the links are that the data is coming from so I had a better idea of what exactly it was that I was seeing. And it'd be nice to have the ones that are just bots autoposting removed, since they're only there to provide transparency.
posted by NoraReed at 2:59 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm confused as to whether what we're seeing is things connected by crossposting (either by the same user or by two different users) or interreddit links between different subs. I'm pretty sure that we're talking about the latter, especially given the inclusion of /r/ModerationLog. It's possible that it's some combination of both, too.
I thought it was interesting how the Fempire (subs affiliated with ShitRedditSays) subs tended to cluster with the anti-SRS stuff. I thought it was particularly funny how SRSMythos, a sub that chronicles people's conspiracy theories regarding SRS, was linked to a bunch of anti-SRS subs and /r/starcraft.
It's an interesting-- and certainly quite beautiful-- visualization, but I'd like to see exactly what the links are that the data is coming from so I had a better idea of what exactly it was that I was seeing. And it'd be nice to have the ones that are just bots autoposting removed, since they're only there to provide transparency.
posted by NoraReed at 2:59 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Heh, the Fempire is linked to /r/Starcraft because /r/Starcraft is full of exactly the sort of people you'd think it would be.
Meanwhile, /r/NationalSocialism and /r/ronpaul apparently share a lot of content.
Oh, check out /r/worldpolitics and what it's linked to- that's an interesting subreddit which provides a balance of legitimate news and posts about how [the Jews/the Arabs/the Blacks] are subhuman savages out to rape everybody. I'm honestly shocked that /r/worldpolitics and /r/ni***rs don't link- they attract a lot of the same posters.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:25 AM on May 14, 2013
Meanwhile, /r/NationalSocialism and /r/ronpaul apparently share a lot of content.
Oh, check out /r/worldpolitics and what it's linked to- that's an interesting subreddit which provides a balance of legitimate news and posts about how [the Jews/the Arabs/the Blacks] are subhuman savages out to rape everybody. I'm honestly shocked that /r/worldpolitics and /r/ni***rs don't link- they attract a lot of the same posters.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:25 AM on May 14, 2013
My god, I never knew there was an /r/ni***rs. Fuck Reddit, really. No excuse for that kind of lack of moderation.
posted by iotic at 4:00 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by iotic at 4:00 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Finding SRSsucks, that's easy. Finding SRS, not so much.
Is SRS even on the map? I found the Fempire through the subreddits aligned against it.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 4:16 AM on May 14, 2013
Is SRS even on the map? I found the Fempire through the subreddits aligned against it.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 4:16 AM on May 14, 2013
I thought it was interesting how the Fempire (subs affiliated with ShitRedditSays) subs tended to cluster with the anti-SRS stuff.
Well, yeah - they feed off each other. They talk about the same subjects, and each other.
Nice vizualisation.
posted by Leon at 4:29 AM on May 14, 2013
Well, yeah - they feed off each other. They talk about the same subjects, and each other.
Nice vizualisation.
posted by Leon at 4:29 AM on May 14, 2013
Is there really that much crossposting with SRS, though? I feel like I don't even see crossposting between SRS and worstof. I don't read the other SRS* subs, so I'm not sure if they're tightly bound with one another.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:32 AM on May 14, 2013
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:32 AM on May 14, 2013
This is a nice visualisation, and fun to play with. It's actually helped me find some interesting new subreddits to follow, mostly science-related.
A couple of other patterns I noticed:
japanese animation <--> anime <--> amazon sales
(Makes sense, since anime can be hard to get hold of in the right format in the USA and UK.)
It's interesting that r/writing is only connected to r/books via r/Fantasy.
MapPorn <--> Chinese Maps
(ChineseMaps only posts, um, Chinese Maps from MapPorn. But if they didn't, I wouldn't have discovered MapPorn and I would be much less excited right now.)
magicskyfairy <--> DebateReligion <--> exmuslim <--> Islam
MetaHub <--> exmormon <--> mormon
(The only way to get to r/Islam or r/mormon from the centre is via exmuslim or exmormon, respectively. Not the case for r/Christianity.)
posted by daisyk at 5:18 AM on May 14, 2013
A couple of other patterns I noticed:
japanese animation <--> anime <--> amazon sales
(Makes sense, since anime can be hard to get hold of in the right format in the USA and UK.)
It's interesting that r/writing is only connected to r/books via r/Fantasy.
MapPorn <--> Chinese Maps
(ChineseMaps only posts, um, Chinese Maps from MapPorn. But if they didn't, I wouldn't have discovered MapPorn and I would be much less excited right now.)
magicskyfairy <--> DebateReligion <--> exmuslim <--> Islam
MetaHub <--> exmormon <--> mormon
(The only way to get to r/Islam or r/mormon from the centre is via exmuslim or exmormon, respectively. Not the case for r/Christianity.)
posted by daisyk at 5:18 AM on May 14, 2013
r/RonPaul is just one jump away from r/NationalSocialism and r/WhiteRights.
posted by aw_yiss at 6:00 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by aw_yiss at 6:00 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Most of the major crosslinking subreddits are not there, (subredditdrama, circlebroke, theoryofreddit, srs). It's probably the degree greater than 75 thing.
posted by zabuni at 6:15 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by zabuni at 6:15 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
r/RonPaul is just one jump away from r/NationalSocialism and r/WhiteRights.
True in so many ways.
posted by jaduncan at 6:20 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
True in so many ways.
posted by jaduncan at 6:20 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
Where is TrueReddit or SRS on here?
Odd.
Interesting that BitCoin is linked to 'ShitStatistsSay'.
What's really odd is that r/seduction is linked to TwoXChromosones.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:25 AM on May 14, 2013
Odd.
Interesting that BitCoin is linked to 'ShitStatistsSay'.
What's really odd is that r/seduction is linked to TwoXChromosones.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:25 AM on May 14, 2013
SRS has to have been excluded for some reason; several of its associated subs and its hater brigade are there. Maybe the maker of the graph isn't a fan.
And yes, /r/n****rs is still there. And a number of outright neo-Nazi subreddits, and /r/beatingwomen, and... People have been complaining about them for years, the admins are completely aware of them and insist that they must be allowed to stay because FREE SPEECH.
And all the people who think those subs are an awesome idea? They post in the regular subreddits too. So Reddit is self-selecting users who love racism and misogyny, who might be driven away from other communities. They can make themselves a home there. Just like it had been attracting pedos for years with /r/jailbait before some targeted outrage campaigns finally got them to shut it down. Likewise creepers with /r/creepshots.
So Reddit has way more than its fair share of horrible people, in all the subreddits.
And that's why things like ShitRedditSays came into existence. Because of all the shit that Reddit says.
posted by edheil at 6:31 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
And yes, /r/n****rs is still there. And a number of outright neo-Nazi subreddits, and /r/beatingwomen, and... People have been complaining about them for years, the admins are completely aware of them and insist that they must be allowed to stay because FREE SPEECH.
And all the people who think those subs are an awesome idea? They post in the regular subreddits too. So Reddit is self-selecting users who love racism and misogyny, who might be driven away from other communities. They can make themselves a home there. Just like it had been attracting pedos for years with /r/jailbait before some targeted outrage campaigns finally got them to shut it down. Likewise creepers with /r/creepshots.
So Reddit has way more than its fair share of horrible people, in all the subreddits.
And that's why things like ShitRedditSays came into existence. Because of all the shit that Reddit says.
posted by edheil at 6:31 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
So Reddit has way more than its fair share of horrible people, in all the subreddits.
This is true in even the 'smarter' subreddits. I was told that people traumatized by childhood sexual abuse lacked mental fortitude. I deleted my account and haven't been back since.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:40 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is true in even the 'smarter' subreddits. I was told that people traumatized by childhood sexual abuse lacked mental fortitude. I deleted my account and haven't been back since.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:40 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes. Reddit takes the people that other mainstream online communities won't, for good or ill.
posted by jaduncan at 6:42 AM on May 14, 2013
posted by jaduncan at 6:42 AM on May 14, 2013
This is a really cool visualization, but not quite as revealing as it first appears. It looks like links between nodes represent someone taking a post from one subreddit and crossposting it to a different subreddit, not which subreddits have users in common as determined by posting frequency. So while it's tempting to infer something from the fact that /r/n* is linked to /r/adviceanimals and /r/talesfromretail, the former might have a shared userbase (anecdotally, I'd guess they do) while the latter is /r/n* posters cherry-picking bad experiences retail employees have had. It also explains why /r/SRSSucks is linked to /r/SRSFeminism; /r/SRSFeminism is where /r/SRSSucks get the posts they complain about.
Because the main SRS subreddit gathers material with a pretty wide net, it's entirely possible that they do in fact have connections to more than 75 other subreddits and are thus left off of the map. I may be uniformed about how crossposting on reddit works, though.
> People have been complaining about them for years, the admins are completely aware of them and insist that they must be allowed to stay because FREE SPEECH.
If reddit doesn't freeze those peaches, who will?
posted by postcommunism at 6:48 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Because the main SRS subreddit gathers material with a pretty wide net, it's entirely possible that they do in fact have connections to more than 75 other subreddits and are thus left off of the map. I may be uniformed about how crossposting on reddit works, though.
> People have been complaining about them for years, the admins are completely aware of them and insist that they must be allowed to stay because FREE SPEECH.
If reddit doesn't freeze those peaches, who will?
posted by postcommunism at 6:48 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
> It looks like links between nodes represent someone taking a post from one subreddit and crossposting it to a different subreddit, not which subreddits have users in common as determined by posting frequency
From the author's comment here that sounds about right, but there's part of the algorithm that still confuses me.
For instance, my only reason for sticking around on reddit, AskHistorians, is linked directly to DepthHub (no surprise), India (?), and TheProjects. That last one is like an RSS feed for pearl-clutching over "white genocide." Seeing as how often the racist clique on reddit likes to come over to my sub (and promptly get shut down), that's no surprise.
That sub's post, however, come completely from outside sites engaged in similar racist fainting spells. Maybe it's forming links based on user profiles? So if RandomRacist posts outside links in r/TheProjects, but also posts links from AskHistorians in more inwardly focused subs (such as r/[racistslur]), then it forms a connection?
posted by Panjandrum at 7:39 AM on May 14, 2013
From the author's comment here that sounds about right, but there's part of the algorithm that still confuses me.
For instance, my only reason for sticking around on reddit, AskHistorians, is linked directly to DepthHub (no surprise), India (?), and TheProjects. That last one is like an RSS feed for pearl-clutching over "white genocide." Seeing as how often the racist clique on reddit likes to come over to my sub (and promptly get shut down), that's no surprise.
That sub's post, however, come completely from outside sites engaged in similar racist fainting spells. Maybe it's forming links based on user profiles? So if RandomRacist posts outside links in r/TheProjects, but also posts links from AskHistorians in more inwardly focused subs (such as r/[racistslur]), then it forms a connection?
posted by Panjandrum at 7:39 AM on May 14, 2013
I'm not sure why my experience on Reddit is so much different than everyone else's. I have never once seen any of these subreddits and would never have known about them if Metafilter hadn't pointed them out to me. I've seen racist/sexist comments before, but they're hidden because they are downvoted so much. Generally stupid comments? Plenty, but less than, say, Yahoo! or something. My biggest beef with reddit tends to be way too many smarmy "clever" atheism posts on the front page, but apparently someone must like them. I'm just not drawn to the scummy racist subreddits any more than I am to racist websites elsewhere on the web, and it does seem to me like you would have to actively seek them out to find them in any event. It's very, very easy to simply not go there and never know it exists at all.
posted by Hoopo at 9:08 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Hoopo at 9:08 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have never once seen any of these subreddits and would never have known about them if Metafilter hadn't pointed them out to me. I've seen racist/sexist comments before, but they're hidden because they are downvoted so much.
One of the healthy effects of SRS has been that the truly terrible comments get downvoted into oblivion. Merely bad ones, though, stick around, because the Reddit hivemind has wrongheaded ideas about what constitutes equality.
For a hateful comment to reach SRS, it has to have enough upvotes that its presence actually matters. Because a comment's presence on SRS distorts its vote count, posters there record how many upvotes and downvotes the comment had at the time of the post.
I'm just not drawn to the scummy racist subreddits any more than I am to racist websites elsewhere on the web, and it does seem to me like you would have to actively seek them out to find them in any event. It's very, very easy to simply not go there and never know it exists at all.
When I was on SRS, posting comments from low-hanging subreddits was frowned upon.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
One of the healthy effects of SRS has been that the truly terrible comments get downvoted into oblivion. Merely bad ones, though, stick around, because the Reddit hivemind has wrongheaded ideas about what constitutes equality.
For a hateful comment to reach SRS, it has to have enough upvotes that its presence actually matters. Because a comment's presence on SRS distorts its vote count, posters there record how many upvotes and downvotes the comment had at the time of the post.
I'm just not drawn to the scummy racist subreddits any more than I am to racist websites elsewhere on the web, and it does seem to me like you would have to actively seek them out to find them in any event. It's very, very easy to simply not go there and never know it exists at all.
When I was on SRS, posting comments from low-hanging subreddits was frowned upon.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
That was a great visualization, even if it ran a bit jerkily on my computer. Plus, the initial image looked like some deep-sea creature.
I wish you could enter a sub-site name and have the map zoom to there. I want to find more sites like /r/lolphp.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:24 AM on May 14, 2013
I wish you could enter a sub-site name and have the map zoom to there. I want to find more sites like /r/lolphp.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:24 AM on May 14, 2013
What's really odd is that r/seduction is linked to TwoXChromosones.
2XC is run by mods who aren't nearly as willing to ban people for being shit as they really need to be, and as such has become a bit of a haven for MRA filth.
And all the people who think those subs are an awesome idea? They post in the regular subreddits too.
Stormfront actually staged a mini-invasion of Reddit a couple of years back, with Stormfront users deliberately creating white supremacist subreddits and swarming into threads. Turns out a website where the moderators are fine and dandy with hosting virulently racist content suits virulent racists just fine.
So while it's tempting to infer something from the fact that /r/n* is linked to /r/adviceanimals and /r/talesfromretail, the former might have a shared userbase (anecdotally, I'd guess they do) while the latter is /r/n* posters cherry-picking bad experiences retail employees have had.
Back in the day on Livejournal there used to be a community (the LJ equivalent of a subreddit, for those not in the know) called customers_suck. It was exactly what you think it was, and I remember dropping that community like a hot potato because the posts became increasingly racist and sexist over time. A link between /r/talesfromretail and /r/ni**ers doesn't surprise me in the least.
When I was on SRS, posting comments from low-hanging subreddits was frowned upon.
Yeah, linking to /r/MensRights is prohibited in SRS Prime because it's low-hanging fruit, though /r/SRSMythos gets its share of MR posts. /r/againstmensrights is the non-fempire-but-friendly subreddit for shitting on MRAs and /r/MR.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:49 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
2XC is run by mods who aren't nearly as willing to ban people for being shit as they really need to be, and as such has become a bit of a haven for MRA filth.
And all the people who think those subs are an awesome idea? They post in the regular subreddits too.
Stormfront actually staged a mini-invasion of Reddit a couple of years back, with Stormfront users deliberately creating white supremacist subreddits and swarming into threads. Turns out a website where the moderators are fine and dandy with hosting virulently racist content suits virulent racists just fine.
So while it's tempting to infer something from the fact that /r/n* is linked to /r/adviceanimals and /r/talesfromretail, the former might have a shared userbase (anecdotally, I'd guess they do) while the latter is /r/n* posters cherry-picking bad experiences retail employees have had.
Back in the day on Livejournal there used to be a community (the LJ equivalent of a subreddit, for those not in the know) called customers_suck. It was exactly what you think it was, and I remember dropping that community like a hot potato because the posts became increasingly racist and sexist over time. A link between /r/talesfromretail and /r/ni**ers doesn't surprise me in the least.
When I was on SRS, posting comments from low-hanging subreddits was frowned upon.
Yeah, linking to /r/MensRights is prohibited in SRS Prime because it's low-hanging fruit, though /r/SRSMythos gets its share of MR posts. /r/againstmensrights is the non-fempire-but-friendly subreddit for shitting on MRAs and /r/MR.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:49 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
benito.strauss: I wish you could enter a sub-site name and have the map zoom to there. I want to find more sites like /r/lolphp.
You can! There is a search box just above the visualisation window. It didn't find any results for r/lolphp but it seems to work in general.
posted by daisyk at 12:08 PM on May 14, 2013
You can! There is a search box just above the visualisation window. It didn't find any results for r/lolphp but it seems to work in general.
posted by daisyk at 12:08 PM on May 14, 2013
So based on the comments it looks like this is about inter-reddit links, not overlapping posts. Which explains why some of the connections I was expecting weren't there--I was expecting to see overlap between all the .gif communities and such. So "crosspost" is a bit misleading.
posted by NoraReed at 12:17 PM on May 14, 2013
posted by NoraReed at 12:17 PM on May 14, 2013
How did I miss that? Thanks daisyk.
And there's a /r/programmingcirclejerk? I guess there's a rule, isn't there? "For every subject X there exists an Xcirclejerk."
posted by benito.strauss at 12:47 PM on May 14, 2013
And there's a /r/programmingcirclejerk? I guess there's a rule, isn't there? "For every subject X there exists an Xcirclejerk."
posted by benito.strauss at 12:47 PM on May 14, 2013
i hope nike buys out SRS and uses them to sell tennis shoes for the rest of forever
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 1:41 PM on May 14, 2013
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 1:41 PM on May 14, 2013
edheil And yes, /r/n****rs is still there. And a number of outright neo-Nazi subreddits, and /r/beatingwomen, and... People have been complaining about them for years, the admins are completely aware of them and insist that they must be allowed to stay because FREE SPEECH.
When I found out about r/niggers I opened my email to write a letter to the admins but stopped because I had second thoughts.
There's no question that it's a vile sub, but I'm a big proponent of free speech and I've always advocated that the best way to combat bigotry is to let the bigots identify themselves by the stupid things they say and then ridicule them for it.
The flipside of that is that the bigots might win converts, I guess. I'm more comfortable erring on the free speech side.
Thoughts?
Also, I was under the impression that SRS was a sub for outrageaholics little better than those they criticize? Is there another side to the sub?
posted by Maugrim at 6:11 PM on May 14, 2013
When I found out about r/niggers I opened my email to write a letter to the admins but stopped because I had second thoughts.
There's no question that it's a vile sub, but I'm a big proponent of free speech and I've always advocated that the best way to combat bigotry is to let the bigots identify themselves by the stupid things they say and then ridicule them for it.
The flipside of that is that the bigots might win converts, I guess. I'm more comfortable erring on the free speech side.
Thoughts?
Also, I was under the impression that SRS was a sub for outrageaholics little better than those they criticize? Is there another side to the sub?
posted by Maugrim at 6:11 PM on May 14, 2013
Also, I was under the impression that SRS was a sub for outrageaholics little better than those they criticize? Is there another side to the sub?
This impression may not be possible to change, but I can see why someone to get it. The outrage is partly sincere, but it's also in large part a pose to serve the circlejerk, which satirizes bigots' fears about people they hate. Check out the Fempire subreddits: They tend not to bellow there as they do on the main page.
That said, I would disagree strongly with the "little better than those they criticize." There's a large difference between the moral positions of a feminist and an MRA. Both may be vehement, but only one is perfectly right to be.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:58 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
This impression may not be possible to change, but I can see why someone to get it. The outrage is partly sincere, but it's also in large part a pose to serve the circlejerk, which satirizes bigots' fears about people they hate. Check out the Fempire subreddits: They tend not to bellow there as they do on the main page.
That said, I would disagree strongly with the "little better than those they criticize." There's a large difference between the moral positions of a feminist and an MRA. Both may be vehement, but only one is perfectly right to be.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:58 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
People have every right to create websites dedicated to their favorite racial slurs and hatred. However, by allowing them to do so on their website, Conde Nast is... not really making a statement about free speech, they're just letting assholes hang out and shit on their carpet.
posted by NoraReed at 7:14 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 7:14 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hm, I'm curious about the Fempire. Never heard of it before. I check XX every now and again; I can usually find something interesting there.
There's a large difference between the moral positions of a feminist and an MRA. Both may be vehement, but only one is perfectly right to be.
K, I know it's icky, but I don't completely hate MRA. Yes, there's a lot outright misogyny and assholery, but there are legitimate issues raised. The framing of the dispute between SRS and MRA tends to be of the "whose problems are worse" nature, IMO, and I'm not convinced that that's a useful way to examine problems. There are very few problems that aren't trivial if you're comparing things on a relative basis.
If you could better describe the value you find in SRS or why MRA is completely abominable I'd appreciate it.
posted by Maugrim at 7:21 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
There's a large difference between the moral positions of a feminist and an MRA. Both may be vehement, but only one is perfectly right to be.
K, I know it's icky, but I don't completely hate MRA. Yes, there's a lot outright misogyny and assholery, but there are legitimate issues raised. The framing of the dispute between SRS and MRA tends to be of the "whose problems are worse" nature, IMO, and I'm not convinced that that's a useful way to examine problems. There are very few problems that aren't trivial if you're comparing things on a relative basis.
If you could better describe the value you find in SRS or why MRA is completely abominable I'd appreciate it.
posted by Maugrim at 7:21 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
wanting to ban speech you don't like (even when almost everyone doesn't like it) makes you sound like a utopian.
posted by superuser at 7:30 PM on May 14, 2013
posted by superuser at 7:30 PM on May 14, 2013
NoraReed People have every right to create websites dedicated to their favorite racial slurs and hatred. However, by allowing them to do so on their website, Conde Nast is... not really making a statement about free speech, they're just letting assholes hang out and shit on their carpet.
Umm, yes. That's how I feel too.
But there's this niggling, old-school, teenage, message forum part of me that wants to say it's the internet and you lose when you get mad/offended.
Because my friends and I had our own forum way back in the day and we said some terrible things. And we knew each other in real life. And it was both guys and girls. (And, while racism and homophobia have never really been my thing, I'm certain I wrote some really terrible stuff because I was 19 and an idiot. Hell, I'm still an idiot. I just manage to write less terrible stuff on the internet. I hope.)
And that makes it ok? Because we signed up for it? Or something...
posted by Maugrim at 7:35 PM on May 14, 2013
Umm, yes. That's how I feel too.
But there's this niggling, old-school, teenage, message forum part of me that wants to say it's the internet and you lose when you get mad/offended.
Because my friends and I had our own forum way back in the day and we said some terrible things. And we knew each other in real life. And it was both guys and girls. (And, while racism and homophobia have never really been my thing, I'm certain I wrote some really terrible stuff because I was 19 and an idiot. Hell, I'm still an idiot. I just manage to write less terrible stuff on the internet. I hope.)
And that makes it ok? Because we signed up for it? Or something...
posted by Maugrim at 7:35 PM on May 14, 2013
superuser wanting to ban speech you don't like (even when almost everyone doesn't like it) makes you sound like a utopian.
I think the issue is that it glosses over the problem rather than confronting it directly. Bigots should be able to speak their mind. Provides an opportunity to point out how ridiculous they are.
posted by Maugrim at 7:41 PM on May 14, 2013
I think the issue is that it glosses over the problem rather than confronting it directly. Bigots should be able to speak their mind. Provides an opportunity to point out how ridiculous they are.
posted by Maugrim at 7:41 PM on May 14, 2013
If you could better describe the value you find in SRS or why MRA is completely abominable I'd appreciate it.
Where MRAs are good, they agree with existing feminist thought. Where they're bad, they disagree with feminism in general. They focus too much on the bad, or the good ones refuse to drive out the bad ones, and so their relationship with feminism is adversarial when, by their own apologies, it should be cooperative. After a while I begin to suspect their good faith.
As for SRS, it afflicts the comfortable and comforts the afflicted. Their mods take no nonsense. I find the combination refreshing.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:56 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Where MRAs are good, they agree with existing feminist thought. Where they're bad, they disagree with feminism in general. They focus too much on the bad, or the good ones refuse to drive out the bad ones, and so their relationship with feminism is adversarial when, by their own apologies, it should be cooperative. After a while I begin to suspect their good faith.
As for SRS, it afflicts the comfortable and comforts the afflicted. Their mods take no nonsense. I find the combination refreshing.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:56 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Heh, the Fempire is linked to /r/Starcraft because /r/Starcraft is full of exactly the sort of people you'd think it would be.
It's mostly because of one guy -- Destiny. The rest of the subreddit isn't that bad. They handled having a well known player coming out as trans very respectfully, for example.
posted by empath at 8:14 PM on May 14, 2013
It's mostly because of one guy -- Destiny. The rest of the subreddit isn't that bad. They handled having a well known player coming out as trans very respectfully, for example.
posted by empath at 8:14 PM on May 14, 2013
The biggest issue with the bigger hate subs-- particularly r/n(slur), r/mensrights, r/theredpill and ones like that-- is that they are like home base for assholes who then go into other subs and make them terrible. So you end up with this group of MRA people who are always in places like r/TwoXChromosomes trying to shout down every woman who's a victim of any gender-based crime with victim blaming and "what about the menz"-ing.
That's sort of separate from the casual misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia and body policing that happen everywhere most of the time. The really, really big subs-- r/adviceanimals, r/funny, r/pics, r/politics, stuff like that-- tend to have jokes rise to the top of the comments really quickly, so no real discussion happens, and the jokes that get upvoted most seem to be a) references to television shows that people enjoy b) references to internet memes that people enjoy and c) "edgy" racist/sexist/homophobic/fat-shaming/gender policing "jokes".
I spent a few weeks in r/feminism a while back and it was an interesting but unpleasant experience. The mod there has, more recently, taken to banning anyone who posts in any of the Fempire subs, but for a while he was just banning people who weren't sufficiently "nice" to his pet MRAs. As a result, the entire sub was a group of feminists attempting to defend basic principals of feminism; it was so overrun by angry MRAs that it was impossible to have actual conversations. This seems to be their MO: they go all over reddit (and the feminist blogosphere, including Manboobz and Skepchick) and attempt to derail or debate every feminist conversation.
So that's my personal experience with MRAs and why I find them irritating, the reason they are actually deplorable is because they constantly associate with rape apologists and victim blamers and the only advocacy they seem to ever participate in is harassing feminists. The harassing feminists thing is especially centered around A Voice For Men, which has a site specifically for providing personal information on women they don't like. They also associate themselves strongly with Warren Farrell, who thinks that taking a woman out for dinner and not getting laid is equatable to being date raped.
Manboobz does a really good job of keeping track of this stuff.
The thing with SRS Prime is that it's largely just a place to blow of steam after wading through piles and piles of shit on reddit. It can be really nice to see something awful and have a place to post it and have people say "Yeah, that's pretty awful". Being concerned about social justice can make large swaths of the internet a pretty lonely place, and SRS is supposed to be a place to vent.
The rest of the Fempire is nice because it actually provides a safe space for a lot of people. It's not perfect, and they've been working on weeding out some of the ableism and transphobia that comes up sometimes, but overall it can be a safe haven for certain kinds of discussion. The active moderation of that kind of thing can make it a much safer space than MetaFilter at times, because their primary reason for existence is to provide a space to talk about certain topics without having to wade through casual racism, sexism, rape jokes, transphobia, etc.
There are also a handful of subs that aren't part of the Fempire and do work really hard to keep bullshit out. r/creepyPMs in particular is really, really good about that.
Oh, and if the r/starcraft thing was just one asshole and not a bunch of assholes, he wouldn't be getting linked to because his bullshit wouldn't be getting upvoted and defended. Reddit isn't like MetaFilter where one bad user can hijack a discussion and make it terrible until a mod steps in and makes the thread stop being "argue with user _____"; it requires a larger proportion of the userbase to like a comment than dislike it if that comment is to remain visible. That's what SRS Prime is for; it highlights not only the terrible things that a few terrible reddit users say but also the fact that a large portion of the community likes it enough to upvote it.
posted by NoraReed at 8:24 PM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
That's sort of separate from the casual misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia and body policing that happen everywhere most of the time. The really, really big subs-- r/adviceanimals, r/funny, r/pics, r/politics, stuff like that-- tend to have jokes rise to the top of the comments really quickly, so no real discussion happens, and the jokes that get upvoted most seem to be a) references to television shows that people enjoy b) references to internet memes that people enjoy and c) "edgy" racist/sexist/homophobic/fat-shaming/gender policing "jokes".
I spent a few weeks in r/feminism a while back and it was an interesting but unpleasant experience. The mod there has, more recently, taken to banning anyone who posts in any of the Fempire subs, but for a while he was just banning people who weren't sufficiently "nice" to his pet MRAs. As a result, the entire sub was a group of feminists attempting to defend basic principals of feminism; it was so overrun by angry MRAs that it was impossible to have actual conversations. This seems to be their MO: they go all over reddit (and the feminist blogosphere, including Manboobz and Skepchick) and attempt to derail or debate every feminist conversation.
So that's my personal experience with MRAs and why I find them irritating, the reason they are actually deplorable is because they constantly associate with rape apologists and victim blamers and the only advocacy they seem to ever participate in is harassing feminists. The harassing feminists thing is especially centered around A Voice For Men, which has a site specifically for providing personal information on women they don't like. They also associate themselves strongly with Warren Farrell, who thinks that taking a woman out for dinner and not getting laid is equatable to being date raped.
Manboobz does a really good job of keeping track of this stuff.
The thing with SRS Prime is that it's largely just a place to blow of steam after wading through piles and piles of shit on reddit. It can be really nice to see something awful and have a place to post it and have people say "Yeah, that's pretty awful". Being concerned about social justice can make large swaths of the internet a pretty lonely place, and SRS is supposed to be a place to vent.
The rest of the Fempire is nice because it actually provides a safe space for a lot of people. It's not perfect, and they've been working on weeding out some of the ableism and transphobia that comes up sometimes, but overall it can be a safe haven for certain kinds of discussion. The active moderation of that kind of thing can make it a much safer space than MetaFilter at times, because their primary reason for existence is to provide a space to talk about certain topics without having to wade through casual racism, sexism, rape jokes, transphobia, etc.
There are also a handful of subs that aren't part of the Fempire and do work really hard to keep bullshit out. r/creepyPMs in particular is really, really good about that.
Oh, and if the r/starcraft thing was just one asshole and not a bunch of assholes, he wouldn't be getting linked to because his bullshit wouldn't be getting upvoted and defended. Reddit isn't like MetaFilter where one bad user can hijack a discussion and make it terrible until a mod steps in and makes the thread stop being "argue with user _____"; it requires a larger proportion of the userbase to like a comment than dislike it if that comment is to remain visible. That's what SRS Prime is for; it highlights not only the terrible things that a few terrible reddit users say but also the fact that a large portion of the community likes it enough to upvote it.
posted by NoraReed at 8:24 PM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
SRS Prime is also great because it's a huge slap in the face to people who insist they see no evil at Reddit. It's an enormous collection of links to horrible, horrible shit getting upvoted on Reddit, and the rage and paranoia it inspires in terrible people is beautiful.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:31 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:31 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh, and if the r/starcraft thing was just one asshole and not a bunch of assholes, he wouldn't be getting linked to because his bullshit wouldn't be getting upvoted and defended. Reddit isn't like MetaFilter where one bad user can hijack a discussion and make it terrible until a mod steps in and makes the thread stop being "argue with user _____"; it requires a larger proportion of the userbase to like a comment than dislike it if that comment is to remain visible. That's what SRS Prime is for; it highlights not only the terrible things that a few terrible reddit users say but also the fact that a large portion of the community likes it enough to upvote it.
Yeah, but Destiny has a popular stream on twitch.tv that upvotes everything he posts on /r/starcraft, so it's kinda like they hijack the subreddit. He gets as much hate there as he gets upvotes. Most of the time they talk about strategy and how terrible american players are vs koreans. One time SRS made a big deal about Stephano 'abusing a child' when he was kinda just making a tasteless joke about beating a young kid in a starcraft game -- something that actually got him suspended by his team.
posted by empath at 8:34 PM on May 14, 2013
Yeah, but Destiny has a popular stream on twitch.tv that upvotes everything he posts on /r/starcraft, so it's kinda like they hijack the subreddit. He gets as much hate there as he gets upvotes. Most of the time they talk about strategy and how terrible american players are vs koreans. One time SRS made a big deal about Stephano 'abusing a child' when he was kinda just making a tasteless joke about beating a young kid in a starcraft game -- something that actually got him suspended by his team.
posted by empath at 8:34 PM on May 14, 2013
As for SRS, it afflicts the comfortable and comforts the afflicted.i dunno, it sure seems comfortable to me
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 8:47 PM on May 14, 2013
Mod note: A couple comments deleted; like the posting text says, focus on the issues at hand, not on other members of the site.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:09 PM on May 14, 2013
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:09 PM on May 14, 2013
SRS Prime is also great because it's a huge slap in the face to people who insist they see no evil at Reddit. It's an enormous collection of links to horrible, horrible shit getting upvoted on Reddit, and the rage and paranoia it inspires in terrible people is beautiful.
This is more or less an admission that you feed off the internet hate circle.
You are assaulting a straw man.
posted by Maugrim at 9:17 PM on May 14, 2013
This is more or less an admission that you feed off the internet hate circle.
You are assaulting a straw man.
posted by Maugrim at 9:17 PM on May 14, 2013
by allowing them to do so on their website, Conde Nast is... not really making a statement about free speech, they're just letting assholes hang out and shit on their carpet.
I am not someone that waves the free speech flag when it comes to the type of thing these subreddits contain, but I'm not really sure what this means. How is allowing this type of crap on your site under the pretext of free speech not a statement about free speech?
posted by Hoopo at 10:11 AM on May 15, 2013
I am not someone that waves the free speech flag when it comes to the type of thing these subreddits contain, but I'm not really sure what this means. How is allowing this type of crap on your site under the pretext of free speech not a statement about free speech?
posted by Hoopo at 10:11 AM on May 15, 2013
This impression may not be possible to change, but I can see why someone to get it.
Ugh. "but I can see how someone could get it."
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:53 AM on May 15, 2013
Ugh. "but I can see how someone could get it."
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:53 AM on May 15, 2013
How is allowing this type of crap on your site under the pretext of free speech not a statement about free speech?
Because free speech means the government won't shut you up. It doesn't mean that you're entitled to use any particular private soapbox. That Reddit permits a broad spectrum of people, including a lot of really terrible people, to use their soapbox to say a broad spectrum of things, including a lot of really terrible things, has literally no impact on or implication for free speech whatsoever. The Reddit idea about what constitutes free speech (which is that everybody is entitled to say anything they want, whereever they want) is a popular but false one.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:13 AM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]
Because free speech means the government won't shut you up. It doesn't mean that you're entitled to use any particular private soapbox. That Reddit permits a broad spectrum of people, including a lot of really terrible people, to use their soapbox to say a broad spectrum of things, including a lot of really terrible things, has literally no impact on or implication for free speech whatsoever. The Reddit idea about what constitutes free speech (which is that everybody is entitled to say anything they want, whereever they want) is a popular but false one.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:13 AM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]
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