Todd Vanderwerff was trolling us with the B grade because B is for Bluth
June 6, 2013 11:54 PM Subscribe
Embrace the mystery: Is repeat viewing the best way to approach complex TV?
threeants: Why not enjoy the trip until then? Even if you travel some roads twice, you can always look out another window to see a different part of the whole.
posted by KMB at 12:59 AM on June 7, 2013 [11 favorites]
posted by KMB at 12:59 AM on June 7, 2013 [11 favorites]
I guess it's a fair question. I mean, I'm not like, UGH, RASPBERRIES ONCE AGAIN?! THE ABYSS AWAITS; BRING ME UNKNOWN FRUITS FROM THE FURTHEST NATIONS
posted by threeants at 1:01 AM on June 7, 2013 [104 favorites]
posted by threeants at 1:01 AM on June 7, 2013 [104 favorites]
There's this quote by Proust I think fits nicely here:
The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.posted by bjrn at 1:08 AM on June 7, 2013 [32 favorites]
Ha ha! That made my morning, threeants!
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:09 AM on June 7, 2013
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:09 AM on June 7, 2013
I'm a total trope/media/culture nerd, and I find revisiting things I've read/seen before tends to be interesting because I'm at a different part of my life now and there are things I missed. There are really obvious examples of this-- I missed a lot of the sex jokes in the Simpsons and Monty Python when I saw them the first time because my age was in the single digets. Same with foreshadowing and some character motivations. The sort-of-famous example of Sirius Black's motorcycle being mentioned in the beginning of the first Harry Potter book is another example of this.
I've been rereading the Leviathan Wakes series (well, re-listening too-- I'm waiting for the audiobook of the new one to come out, hopefully soon). Minor spoilers-- like, for the first chapter or two-- to follow. The narrating character in the prologue is lost, basically, and one of the two main protagonists is a detective on the case to find her. This is very typical, I believe, for mysteries-- I know lots of mystery format TV series do this kind of thing. Anyway, her characterization is deeply tied in with the detective protagonist, but the way he perceives her sort of colors how the reader sees her, so that his idea of her sort of replaces the brief look into her life that we see in the prologue. It's interesting to go back and see into her head on re-reading because you get to see how your own perception of her has been shaped by the detective's, because it's hard not to join him in the way that he idealizes her.
You can watch a creator's learning process upon rereading. Anyone who's looked at an artist's career in chronological order will see this, but it's particularly evident with comic artists, where you can see their art and writing style evolve over time. Some of them you can even see their philosophy. You might be able to get this on first viewing, but I find that I get really engaged and am really unable to look at stuff from a Doylist perspective until my second time around.
I love picking apart the stories I love to see how they work. I am a big audiobook reader, and I spend a lot of time relistening to stories I love while I'm doing other stuff. I do the same thing with television shows, though to a lesser extent (since a lot of the stuff I really like requires me to, you know, actually look at it.) It filters into your consciousness differently that way. My dad is a reporter and there is a police scanner that sits by his desk and he ignores it 99% of the time but knows when something important happens, because a part of his mind is absorbing everything. Doing something else at the same time as rewatching/relistening to something is like that: it filters into a part of your brain until something you didn't notice comes up and you're like, oh man, that's referencing this joke, or that explains what they do at some other point in the narrative.
I don't think he's wrong in saying that Lost is the television precursor to this sort of thing, but I think it owes a lot to literature-- there are tons of books, short stories, poems, etc that really reward rereading. The aforementioned Harry Potter was my introduction to this, where I read the first time to see what happened and then over and over again as a kid to see the foreshadowing, the worldbuilding, the bits and pieces that were put in there that made that world seem so overwhelmingly whole and real. And I've read stuff-- and later, watched stuff-- like that ever since.
I know not everyone is like this. Some people are watch once, read once, etc. I get the argument for that, but I'm the kind of nerd that feels an overwhelming need to connect more deeply with narratives, to really dig into them and find the bits and pieces that make them work, and to see who else uses those bits and pieces, and how those methods differ. Some people take apart gadgets to see how they work or dig into their software to modify it or are into biohacking or whatever else. I just happen to like doing that with stories.
posted by NoraReed at 2:15 AM on June 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
I've been rereading the Leviathan Wakes series (well, re-listening too-- I'm waiting for the audiobook of the new one to come out, hopefully soon). Minor spoilers-- like, for the first chapter or two-- to follow. The narrating character in the prologue is lost, basically, and one of the two main protagonists is a detective on the case to find her. This is very typical, I believe, for mysteries-- I know lots of mystery format TV series do this kind of thing. Anyway, her characterization is deeply tied in with the detective protagonist, but the way he perceives her sort of colors how the reader sees her, so that his idea of her sort of replaces the brief look into her life that we see in the prologue. It's interesting to go back and see into her head on re-reading because you get to see how your own perception of her has been shaped by the detective's, because it's hard not to join him in the way that he idealizes her.
You can watch a creator's learning process upon rereading. Anyone who's looked at an artist's career in chronological order will see this, but it's particularly evident with comic artists, where you can see their art and writing style evolve over time. Some of them you can even see their philosophy. You might be able to get this on first viewing, but I find that I get really engaged and am really unable to look at stuff from a Doylist perspective until my second time around.
I love picking apart the stories I love to see how they work. I am a big audiobook reader, and I spend a lot of time relistening to stories I love while I'm doing other stuff. I do the same thing with television shows, though to a lesser extent (since a lot of the stuff I really like requires me to, you know, actually look at it.) It filters into your consciousness differently that way. My dad is a reporter and there is a police scanner that sits by his desk and he ignores it 99% of the time but knows when something important happens, because a part of his mind is absorbing everything. Doing something else at the same time as rewatching/relistening to something is like that: it filters into a part of your brain until something you didn't notice comes up and you're like, oh man, that's referencing this joke, or that explains what they do at some other point in the narrative.
I don't think he's wrong in saying that Lost is the television precursor to this sort of thing, but I think it owes a lot to literature-- there are tons of books, short stories, poems, etc that really reward rereading. The aforementioned Harry Potter was my introduction to this, where I read the first time to see what happened and then over and over again as a kid to see the foreshadowing, the worldbuilding, the bits and pieces that were put in there that made that world seem so overwhelmingly whole and real. And I've read stuff-- and later, watched stuff-- like that ever since.
I know not everyone is like this. Some people are watch once, read once, etc. I get the argument for that, but I'm the kind of nerd that feels an overwhelming need to connect more deeply with narratives, to really dig into them and find the bits and pieces that make them work, and to see who else uses those bits and pieces, and how those methods differ. Some people take apart gadgets to see how they work or dig into their software to modify it or are into biohacking or whatever else. I just happen to like doing that with stories.
posted by NoraReed at 2:15 AM on June 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
I dunno, I reread books moderately often, and I enjoy finding things that I missed on the first read or that make more sense in the context of the whole novel. I also do this with movies, although there are a lot fewer movies I have any interest in seeing more than once. TV shows, on the other hand, just seem kind of coy when they do this, and I find it pretty irritating. Possible reasons:
a) A book is generally the work of one person, and all of the threads and developments are, presumably, intended (although Eco has a funny bit in The Postscript to The Name of the Rose about this. TV shows and movies, in contrast, are the produces of dozens of major and hundreds of minor "creators," and I am less certain that the depths I am seeing are deep or merely the darkness of their chaotic creation.
b) Even with my decreased reading speed, I can reread a novel in a weekend, and I can rewatch a movie in a few hours. A TV show takes probably takes a good 10-20 hours per season, and that is a lot of my time to demand.
c) In all cases, I have to worry about all the other things I am not reading or watching while I revisit stuff. I mean, I could reread Proust, and I am pretty sure that the experience would be rewarding for me (especially if I get the newest translation). But that's going to be a couple of months of work, and, in that time, I could have read a dozen new books, each one of which could be rewarding in its own way. Do I really want to spend time rewatching the first season of A Game of Thrones when I could be, say, chasing down British (or French or Japanese or who knows what UNKNOWN FRUITS FROM THE FURTHEST NATIONS) shows that I have only just heard about?
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:28 AM on June 7, 2013
a) A book is generally the work of one person, and all of the threads and developments are, presumably, intended (although Eco has a funny bit in The Postscript to The Name of the Rose about this. TV shows and movies, in contrast, are the produces of dozens of major and hundreds of minor "creators," and I am less certain that the depths I am seeing are deep or merely the darkness of their chaotic creation.
b) Even with my decreased reading speed, I can reread a novel in a weekend, and I can rewatch a movie in a few hours. A TV show takes probably takes a good 10-20 hours per season, and that is a lot of my time to demand.
c) In all cases, I have to worry about all the other things I am not reading or watching while I revisit stuff. I mean, I could reread Proust, and I am pretty sure that the experience would be rewarding for me (especially if I get the newest translation). But that's going to be a couple of months of work, and, in that time, I could have read a dozen new books, each one of which could be rewarding in its own way. Do I really want to spend time rewatching the first season of A Game of Thrones when I could be, say, chasing down British (or French or Japanese or who knows what UNKNOWN FRUITS FROM THE FURTHEST NATIONS) shows that I have only just heard about?
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:28 AM on June 7, 2013
The best thing is revisiting (some) old media I enjoyed as a child. Finding all those pot references in classic Simpsons episodes is great fun!
Also, I love Arrested Development but am struggling with the new netflix season. I can't put my finger on it except I'm not really laughing and have sort of taken an unplanned break after about the halfway mark...
posted by Silentgoldfish at 5:36 AM on June 7, 2013
Also, I love Arrested Development but am struggling with the new netflix season. I can't put my finger on it except I'm not really laughing and have sort of taken an unplanned break after about the halfway mark...
posted by Silentgoldfish at 5:36 AM on June 7, 2013
People who don't spread the word on unknown fruits from the furthest nations will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
posted by Etrigan at 5:59 AM on June 7, 2013
posted by Etrigan at 5:59 AM on June 7, 2013
This article holds the record for how many GoT spoilers can be crammed into five sentences.
posted by Brocktoon at 6:11 AM on June 7, 2013
posted by Brocktoon at 6:11 AM on June 7, 2013
I guess it's a fair question. I mean, I'm not like, UGH, RASPBERRIES ONCE AGAIN?! THE ABYSS AWAITS; BRING ME UNKNOWN FRUITS FROM THE FURTHEST NATIONS
And then some bastard brings you durian and you really do start hoping for the end of the world.
posted by xqwzts at 6:14 AM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
And then some bastard brings you durian and you really do start hoping for the end of the world.
posted by xqwzts at 6:14 AM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
I get the gist, but what exactly does "bracket-style war" mean?
posted by Estragon at 6:33 AM on June 7, 2013
posted by Estragon at 6:33 AM on June 7, 2013
I love Arrested Development but am struggling with the new netflix season. I can't put my finger on it except I'm not really laughing and have sort of taken an unplanned break after about the halfway mark...
I felt the same, but stuck it out, and found it totally worthwhile. My wife, however, just couldn't get back into it despite trying really hard.
It's less funny than fascinating, in my opinion. Seasons 1–3 made me laugh out loud more, but I feel no need to re-watch them. Season 4, on the other hand, I think I'm going to have to go through a couple more times.
posted by Shepherd at 6:51 AM on June 7, 2013
I felt the same, but stuck it out, and found it totally worthwhile. My wife, however, just couldn't get back into it despite trying really hard.
It's less funny than fascinating, in my opinion. Seasons 1–3 made me laugh out loud more, but I feel no need to re-watch them. Season 4, on the other hand, I think I'm going to have to go through a couple more times.
posted by Shepherd at 6:51 AM on June 7, 2013
It gets better around episode seven. Soldier on, sir!
Yeah, I didn't start laughing until later, but the farther it goes on, the better it gets. I still admire Hurwitz's craftmanship and how he juggles everything.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:58 AM on June 7, 2013
Yeah, I didn't start laughing until later, but the farther it goes on, the better it gets. I still admire Hurwitz's craftmanship and how he juggles everything.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:58 AM on June 7, 2013
Credentials: I've watched the new Battlestar Galactica at least twice. And I've watched the first four seasons of The West Wing at least three times. I rewatch series I love, the same way I rewatch movies I love the same way I reread books I love.
Sometimes creators are playing the long game. By all accounts, Game of Thrones is the ne plus ultra of this trope right now. There was some of that in BSG, and really not that much in TWW. And that's terrific. Admittedly, the folks running Game of Thrones have an already-mapped-out plan to work with (though their buffer is getting shorter and shorter). So how much of the long game is planned and how much is happily available is up for debate.
But one of the reasons I really love rewatching a series is thinking about the fates of the characters when they start out. There's Lee Adama. He'll get everything he wants, lose it, and then get different things that he didn't know he wanted. She's a suicide. He's a mutineer. Enjoy that depth perception while you can, Saul. The journey's the thing, and sometimes I enjoy taking the journey again.
As a final note: the opening lines of Romeo and Juliet tell you the plot of the entire thing. THE ENTIRE PLAY! Yet no one says "Spoilers!" or storms out of the theater because they're now uninterested. And even though we know what's going to happen, we laugh with Mercutio, bite our thumbs at vicious Tybalt, sigh at the lovers' revolutions and cry over failed schemes and lost messengers.
posted by aureliobuendia at 7:00 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sometimes creators are playing the long game. By all accounts, Game of Thrones is the ne plus ultra of this trope right now. There was some of that in BSG, and really not that much in TWW. And that's terrific. Admittedly, the folks running Game of Thrones have an already-mapped-out plan to work with (though their buffer is getting shorter and shorter). So how much of the long game is planned and how much is happily available is up for debate.
But one of the reasons I really love rewatching a series is thinking about the fates of the characters when they start out. There's Lee Adama. He'll get everything he wants, lose it, and then get different things that he didn't know he wanted. She's a suicide. He's a mutineer. Enjoy that depth perception while you can, Saul. The journey's the thing, and sometimes I enjoy taking the journey again.
As a final note: the opening lines of Romeo and Juliet tell you the plot of the entire thing. THE ENTIRE PLAY! Yet no one says "Spoilers!" or storms out of the theater because they're now uninterested. And even though we know what's going to happen, we laugh with Mercutio, bite our thumbs at vicious Tybalt, sigh at the lovers' revolutions and cry over failed schemes and lost messengers.
posted by aureliobuendia at 7:00 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
the opening lines of Romeo and Juliet tell you the plot of the entire thing. THE ENTIRE PLAY! Yet no one says "Spoilers!" or storms out of the theater because they're now uninterested.
Actually, when the movie came out in the mid 90s, there were a lot of people in the theatre I was at who were really upset about being told the ending in the first minute. I found this surprising.
posted by jeather at 7:46 AM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Actually, when the movie came out in the mid 90s, there were a lot of people in the theatre I was at who were really upset about being told the ending in the first minute. I found this surprising.
posted by jeather at 7:46 AM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Not to be a huge snob or anything, but the biggest shock there is that there are people who don't know how Romeo and Juliet ends.
I mean, I think there was a whole Brady Bunch episode about it.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:50 AM on June 7, 2013
I mean, I think there was a whole Brady Bunch episode about it.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:50 AM on June 7, 2013
Have you tried raspberries ... in a PIE? They're pretty good that way.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:51 AM on June 7, 2013
posted by filthy light thief at 7:51 AM on June 7, 2013
(I now recognize that starting a comment with "Not to be a huge snob..." and ending it proving my in depth knowledge of Brady Bunch might have been a bit unnecessary.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:31 AM on June 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:31 AM on June 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
THE ABYSS AWAITS; BRING ME UNKNOWN FRUITS FROM THE FURTHEST NATIONS
This needs to be a T-Shirt or something.
On the topic of the post, I find it depends - I have some media that I read/watch/consume once because that's all it is worth (brief enjoyment), and others that I return to because of the complexity. It's interesting at times to revisit something I loved when younger, and see it as an older person with a different perspective; sometimes I also like to revisit certain media to see how they structured certain things, how the foreshadowing was handled, etc.
In short, people's consumption of media can be a complex and highly individuated thing. That's ok. What other people choose to read/watch/listen to repeatedly or just once is fine by me.
NOW BRING ME UNKNOWN FRUITS
posted by never used baby shoes at 8:31 AM on June 7, 2013
This needs to be a T-Shirt or something.
On the topic of the post, I find it depends - I have some media that I read/watch/consume once because that's all it is worth (brief enjoyment), and others that I return to because of the complexity. It's interesting at times to revisit something I loved when younger, and see it as an older person with a different perspective; sometimes I also like to revisit certain media to see how they structured certain things, how the foreshadowing was handled, etc.
In short, people's consumption of media can be a complex and highly individuated thing. That's ok. What other people choose to read/watch/listen to repeatedly or just once is fine by me.
NOW BRING ME UNKNOWN FRUITS
posted by never used baby shoes at 8:31 AM on June 7, 2013
À chacun son goût etc., but I've never really understood repeat consumption of most media. At some point in the geologically immediate future we will be dead. I reiterate, all sensation will end
When I read a complexly written book for the first time (Patrick O'Brian comes to mind) I tend to miss out on things. Re-reading always provides new details.
And let's face it, a lot of entertaining (Patrick O'Brian's books once again come to mind) is intended for escape. There's a certain movie for kids that I've watched 50 times because it reminds me of a place I lived about 20 years ago, and can never go back to again.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:41 AM on June 7, 2013
When I read a complexly written book for the first time (Patrick O'Brian comes to mind) I tend to miss out on things. Re-reading always provides new details.
And let's face it, a lot of entertaining (Patrick O'Brian's books once again come to mind) is intended for escape. There's a certain movie for kids that I've watched 50 times because it reminds me of a place I lived about 20 years ago, and can never go back to again.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:41 AM on June 7, 2013
My own question revolves around what happens when you do look at it a second time. Is there more there to see or hear? Are new things discovered? I prefer to use the word "depth" instead of just "complexity." A random pile is complex. A well architected thing may also be complex but it might also have depth, a measure of how far you can go without teaching an end. There are some things that can be revisited over and over. And the best of all is when you return you find something very different and new.
posted by njohnson23 at 8:54 AM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 8:54 AM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Some books almost demand rereads just to make sense of them. (I'm looking at you Gene Wolf and Book of the New Sun.) Others I just enjoy rereading for the nostalgia.
Arrested Development is one of the few shows I've rewatched several times because of the great jokes within jokes. Alas I didn't think the new season even got close to the original. I still had a laugh here and there though.
posted by meta87 at 9:22 AM on June 7, 2013
Arrested Development is one of the few shows I've rewatched several times because of the great jokes within jokes. Alas I didn't think the new season even got close to the original. I still had a laugh here and there though.
posted by meta87 at 9:22 AM on June 7, 2013
Thanks threeants, I've now lost the opportunity to enjoy this morning's coffee without spittle in it.
New project: A desk spittoon for ejected fluids to handle unexpectedly humorous comments.
posted by smidgen at 9:39 AM on June 7, 2013
New project: A desk spittoon for ejected fluids to handle unexpectedly humorous comments.
posted by smidgen at 9:39 AM on June 7, 2013
Hmmmm.....I can't imagine what it's like to have only seen the Big Lebowski once.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:59 AM on June 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:59 AM on June 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
I love this new mode of TV storytelling tremendously, and am very, very excited to see what future creative minds in the medium come up with. I agree with Nowalk in his comments from the post, that AD is seriously groundbreaking, and that it was created to be distributed via Netflix is seminal in what Hurwitz and team were able to do.
Not only do I not mind re-watching, I absolutely adore creative work that compels me to rewatch (or relisten, or reread) because that means it has depth. As a musician, given that music is a medium that is completely abstract (music is, quite literally, the manipulation of pressure waves through the air), relistening is a necessary part of understanding and savoring a complex musical work. It is in fact one of the hallmarks of great art, that it rewards repeated listening/viewing/reading.
I am thrilled to see creative work in television mature to this degree. If one regards creative work as only 'entertainment,' then I can see that repeat experiences are no fun. But if one regards creative work as entertaining, sure, but so much more, then I think work that is substantial enough to require more than one pass is absolutely more enjoyable than more facile work.
And also, there are studies that tell us that spoilers actually enhance enjoyment. So second (or third, fourth) viewing may be more enjoyable than the first. This is certainly the case for me with Arrested Development and some other shows I love.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:47 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not only do I not mind re-watching, I absolutely adore creative work that compels me to rewatch (or relisten, or reread) because that means it has depth. As a musician, given that music is a medium that is completely abstract (music is, quite literally, the manipulation of pressure waves through the air), relistening is a necessary part of understanding and savoring a complex musical work. It is in fact one of the hallmarks of great art, that it rewards repeated listening/viewing/reading.
I am thrilled to see creative work in television mature to this degree. If one regards creative work as only 'entertainment,' then I can see that repeat experiences are no fun. But if one regards creative work as entertaining, sure, but so much more, then I think work that is substantial enough to require more than one pass is absolutely more enjoyable than more facile work.
And also, there are studies that tell us that spoilers actually enhance enjoyment. So second (or third, fourth) viewing may be more enjoyable than the first. This is certainly the case for me with Arrested Development and some other shows I love.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:47 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
What about raspberry - wait for it - salad?
posted by en forme de poire at 12:43 PM on June 7, 2013
posted by en forme de poire at 12:43 PM on June 7, 2013
Bracket-style war.
Anyway, T.S. is spot on here: ""We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
I really think the main thing is that the second, or third, or nth time you revisit something you are simply not the same person as you were the first time. I know there are movies I've watched fairly recently via Netflix that I had seen years ago, and got so much more out of the experience this time. I'm older, or I've seen more movies in the genre, or I'm just at a different point in my life where I'm more receptive to what that character or scene represents.
posted by dhartung at 8:06 PM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Anyway, T.S. is spot on here: ""We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
I really think the main thing is that the second, or third, or nth time you revisit something you are simply not the same person as you were the first time. I know there are movies I've watched fairly recently via Netflix that I had seen years ago, and got so much more out of the experience this time. I'm older, or I've seen more movies in the genre, or I'm just at a different point in my life where I'm more receptive to what that character or scene represents.
posted by dhartung at 8:06 PM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
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posted by threeants at 12:55 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]