Video of Violent, Rioting Surfers Shows White Culture of Lawlessness
July 30, 2013 8:32 AM Subscribe
A frightening and violent mob swept through the normally quiet seaside community of Huntington Beach last night following a surfing competition in the area. Businesses were vandalized and looted, portable toilets overturned, and brutal fistfights waged right out in the open. It was an ugly display and a sad day for California. But more than that, it was a reminder that we must begin to seriously consider the values of our thuggish white youth.
(Oddly enough, do make sure to read the comments, they're amazing.)
Sometimes, Gawker is at its best when it thinks it's The Onion.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:36 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:36 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
Whenever I see a group of white guys in suits walking down the street, I involuntarily clutch my stock portfolio statements a little more tightly.
magnificent.
posted by elizardbits at 8:39 AM on July 30, 2013 [44 favorites]
magnificent.
posted by elizardbits at 8:39 AM on July 30, 2013 [44 favorites]
From the comments:
I couldn't get past the fact that some of the guys are going into and coming out of the portapotties barefoot.
Christ
posted by readery at 8:41 AM on July 30, 2013
I couldn't get past the fact that some of the guys are going into and coming out of the portapotties barefoot.
Christ
posted by readery at 8:41 AM on July 30, 2013
THAT was a riot?
posted by Optamystic at 8:41 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Optamystic at 8:41 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
"What part of Caucasia is your family from?"
posted by Blasdelb at 8:43 AM on July 30, 2013 [20 favorites]
posted by Blasdelb at 8:43 AM on July 30, 2013 [20 favorites]
THAT was a riot?
Well if it was a bunch of black kids, it may well have been defined as such (see the "riot" of black kids roaming around after the Martin verdict). As it was it was a bunch of kinda douchy (mostly) white kids.
posted by edgeways at 8:45 AM on July 30, 2013 [7 favorites]
Well if it was a bunch of black kids, it may well have been defined as such (see the "riot" of black kids roaming around after the Martin verdict). As it was it was a bunch of kinda douchy (mostly) white kids.
posted by edgeways at 8:45 AM on July 30, 2013 [7 favorites]
Loved this. When will we confront the problem of white violence?
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:46 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:46 AM on July 30, 2013
The most interesting comment (so far):
This happened in Orange County, CA, and it's one of the places I grew up in, so I'd like to provide a bit of history with regards to a very aggressive white culture—one that is actually a white supremacist culture.
Orange County has been a hotbed of white supremacist activity, and has sometimes even been called the capital of it. The existence of skinhead gangs in places like Huntington Beach since the 1990s has been documented (see these articles published in 1993 and 1996), and the activity hasn't stopped: this 6-part series published in 2012 article talks about the white supremacy movement's activity because it turns out that the shootings in the Sikh temple in Wisconsin had roots in Orange County.
This white supremacy activity in Orange County is something that other whites are completely oblivious and blind to. If you're not fortunate enough to be white, rest assured that if you lived in Orange County in the 90s all the way up until now, you'll have heard from the supremacists at some point, especially in the so-called seaside communities. You'll have been the victim of hate crimes, harassment, racially motivated stalking, and flagrant aggression acted out with arrogance because they know the cops are not going to bust them the way they'd target Latino Americans for doing absolutely nothing except for being Latino American.
It's this part of my childhood in Orange County with Huntington Beach, Newport Beach, etc as a few of the backdrops of my childhood that has made me always, always fear groups of white men—especially young white males—more than anyone else because I've been able to detect the blind rage they have, which they express with impunity. This malicious, privileged aggression is something I have picked up on the streets of many cities in the US, including NYC, and it always surprises me that white people talk about everyone else being dangerous and frightening when it's actually the other way around.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:46 AM on July 30, 2013 [21 favorites]
This happened in Orange County, CA, and it's one of the places I grew up in, so I'd like to provide a bit of history with regards to a very aggressive white culture—one that is actually a white supremacist culture.
Orange County has been a hotbed of white supremacist activity, and has sometimes even been called the capital of it. The existence of skinhead gangs in places like Huntington Beach since the 1990s has been documented (see these articles published in 1993 and 1996), and the activity hasn't stopped: this 6-part series published in 2012 article talks about the white supremacy movement's activity because it turns out that the shootings in the Sikh temple in Wisconsin had roots in Orange County.
This white supremacy activity in Orange County is something that other whites are completely oblivious and blind to. If you're not fortunate enough to be white, rest assured that if you lived in Orange County in the 90s all the way up until now, you'll have heard from the supremacists at some point, especially in the so-called seaside communities. You'll have been the victim of hate crimes, harassment, racially motivated stalking, and flagrant aggression acted out with arrogance because they know the cops are not going to bust them the way they'd target Latino Americans for doing absolutely nothing except for being Latino American.
It's this part of my childhood in Orange County with Huntington Beach, Newport Beach, etc as a few of the backdrops of my childhood that has made me always, always fear groups of white men—especially young white males—more than anyone else because I've been able to detect the blind rage they have, which they express with impunity. This malicious, privileged aggression is something I have picked up on the streets of many cities in the US, including NYC, and it always surprises me that white people talk about everyone else being dangerous and frightening when it's actually the other way around.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:46 AM on July 30, 2013 [21 favorites]
Yeah I don't get it.
The riots look like lame vandalism and there is a party feel to it. And then a random chopped up fist fight that looks like it might be road rage.
Metafilter, you lost me on this one...
posted by 13twelve at 8:53 AM on July 30, 2013
The riots look like lame vandalism and there is a party feel to it. And then a random chopped up fist fight that looks like it might be road rage.
Metafilter, you lost me on this one...
posted by 13twelve at 8:53 AM on July 30, 2013
Seeing that guy in the second video drop his attackers one after the other is pretty amazing. I hope he's not one of the baddies.
posted by Flashman at 8:54 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by Flashman at 8:54 AM on July 30, 2013
Yeah I don't get it.
Perhaps your satire detection device needs recalibrating.
posted by rtha at 8:57 AM on July 30, 2013 [29 favorites]
Perhaps your satire detection device needs recalibrating.
posted by rtha at 8:57 AM on July 30, 2013 [29 favorites]
Metafilter, you lost me on this one...
It is funny because of white privilege.
posted by elizardbits at 8:57 AM on July 30, 2013 [30 favorites]
It is funny because of white privilege.
posted by elizardbits at 8:57 AM on July 30, 2013 [30 favorites]
I don't know, it was a violent white surfer who killed Marissa in the third season of The OC, so I'm naturally inclined to cut them some slack.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:00 AM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:00 AM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
The riots look like lame vandalism and there is a party feel to it.
All you have to do is imagine these kids being black instead of white, and then suddenly it's easy to see it in the context of SRS BUSINESS BREAKING NEWS with a reporter talking gravely about malicious urban males rioting in the streets and please stay indoors and protect your children. It's like one of those Magic Eye pictures. Just focus your eyes differently!
Aside: having been caught in the middle of sports riots before (as recently as accidentally being in the center of bro-ville when the Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup), there are few things that frighten me so much as masses of drunk white bros who feel invincible and have no fear of the law. My hair stands on end just thinking about it.
posted by naju at 9:04 AM on July 30, 2013 [20 favorites]
All you have to do is imagine these kids being black instead of white, and then suddenly it's easy to see it in the context of SRS BUSINESS BREAKING NEWS with a reporter talking gravely about malicious urban males rioting in the streets and please stay indoors and protect your children. It's like one of those Magic Eye pictures. Just focus your eyes differently!
Aside: having been caught in the middle of sports riots before (as recently as accidentally being in the center of bro-ville when the Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup), there are few things that frighten me so much as masses of drunk white bros who feel invincible and have no fear of the law. My hair stands on end just thinking about it.
posted by naju at 9:04 AM on July 30, 2013 [20 favorites]
I'm confused about whether I'm supposed to be outraged at horrible people behaving badly or amused at the mildness of this "riot" or thoughtful about the race inversion.
But as a gay man, seeing a bunch of fucked up young guys getting aggro like this fills me with terror. Flight response fear.
posted by Nelson at 9:05 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
But as a gay man, seeing a bunch of fucked up young guys getting aggro like this fills me with terror. Flight response fear.
posted by Nelson at 9:05 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
the kid in the second video has a pretty wicked left.
posted by mullacc at 9:06 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by mullacc at 9:06 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Daily Show played Rick Perry's douchebag "Hey Illinois businesses, come to Texas where you won't be burdened by onerous social responsibilities!" radio commercial, and he pronounced "escape" as "eks-scape." And I was suddenly filled with rage at the fact that dialectical variations like that are seen as targets of derision when spoken by black people, but seen as down-home folksiness when spoken by Rick Perry.
posted by KathrynT at 9:07 AM on July 30, 2013 [29 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 9:07 AM on July 30, 2013 [29 favorites]
First comment by the author:
Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, I should probably say here that my best friend is white. Yesterday 8:08pm
Very very funny. A+
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:08 AM on July 30, 2013 [13 favorites]
Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, I should probably say here that my best friend is white. Yesterday 8:08pm
Very very funny. A+
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:08 AM on July 30, 2013 [13 favorites]
Well, this never would have happened back when Bart Maverick was mayor.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:09 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:09 AM on July 30, 2013
Ok and this is the best exchange from the comments:
newharbourrocksCord Jefferson
154
I am embarrassed to admit this, but I often cross the street when I see a young white approaching. Yesterday 7:55pm
----
Dave Gahannewharbourrocks
Would you rather be embarrassed or die? Would you rather make someone uncomfortable or be beaten? There's good white people and plenty of bad ones, and it's just PC nonsense to expect you to risk your life on the chance that the one coming at you is a good one.
Stay safe, man.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:09 AM on July 30, 2013 [23 favorites]
newharbourrocksCord Jefferson
154
I am embarrassed to admit this, but I often cross the street when I see a young white approaching. Yesterday 7:55pm
----
Dave Gahannewharbourrocks
Would you rather be embarrassed or die? Would you rather make someone uncomfortable or be beaten? There's good white people and plenty of bad ones, and it's just PC nonsense to expect you to risk your life on the chance that the one coming at you is a good one.
Stay safe, man.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:09 AM on July 30, 2013 [23 favorites]
I don't know, I saw an awful lot of white Hispanics in that video. /zimmerman reporter
posted by resurrexit at 9:10 AM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by resurrexit at 9:10 AM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
What I want to know is are they taking over or are they taking orders? Are they going backwards or are they going forwards?"
posted by octobersurprise at 9:12 AM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 9:12 AM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
That's not a white riot. That's chucking out time at the pub. For reference this is a what a riot looks like, and this.
posted by fingerbang at 9:14 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by fingerbang at 9:14 AM on July 30, 2013
Ah October surprise, I would guess you and I are about the same age ;)
posted by fingerbang at 9:15 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by fingerbang at 9:15 AM on July 30, 2013
To be fair, many white people are descended from the unruly hordes of Nordic and Germanic tribes who regularly rampaged through Europe for much of its history. These poor children are driven, no doubt, by genetic imperatives toward pillaging. They are evolutionarily adapted for throwing over portapotties and breaking stuff. This is why you will never see a white man in charge of a bank; they can't be trusted to resist the impulse to destroy everything around them. Sad, but what are you going to do? It's genetic.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:16 AM on July 30, 2013 [59 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:16 AM on July 30, 2013 [59 favorites]
that's the point, erm, fingerbang. Masses of black kids will regularly be described as a riot
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:17 AM on July 30, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:17 AM on July 30, 2013 [4 favorites]
GenjiandProust that's ridiculous and racist, its just there culture and the way they are raised. With the divorce and atheism rate so high among white suburban communities, its no wonder they end up so violent. Haven't you read Guns Germs Steel?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:18 AM on July 30, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:18 AM on July 30, 2013 [15 favorites]
not to mention that IQ testing proves that white people are genetically inferior, and frankly stupider than Asian people. We shouldn't encourage white people to go to college, because their genetic inferiority will hold them back. The world needs ditch diggers. Nor should government revenue be spent on trying to advance the status of white people--their clear, genetic inferiority and low IQ means that programs like welfare (white people take more welfare than any other group) and huge subsides like the mortgage interest deduction will do nothing to help them improve their lot in life, because their IQ is lower.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:20 AM on July 30, 2013 [26 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:20 AM on July 30, 2013 [26 favorites]
also juggalos
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:21 AM on July 30, 2013 [17 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:21 AM on July 30, 2013 [17 favorites]
Surf Nazis again?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:21 AM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:21 AM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
I once dated a girl from Orange county and she was ok, so there are good ones. Why do they have to wear their hats backwards like that though?
posted by Ad hominem at 9:21 AM on July 30, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by Ad hominem at 9:21 AM on July 30, 2013 [9 favorites]
Yeah I don't get it.
The riots look like lame vandalism and there is a party feel to it. And then a random chopped up fist fight that looks like it might be road rage.
Metafilter, you lost me on this one...
Before and after the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin trial, every major news outlet (conservative ones in particular) seemed overly concerned as to when angry black folk were going to start gettinguppity violent. When the overwhelming majority of public demonstrations were peaceful, some of those outlets ended up basically trying to hype up minor, isolated incidents, something they've been doing around stuff like the (re-)election of Obama. Yet this is a blip on the radar, and many other riots that were orders of magnitude worse basically get the "boys will be boys" treatment. After all, I don't recall everyone in the media wringing their hands over, say, white people spouting racial epithets at a riot at one of the most historically racist universities in the country after Obama was re-elected, let alone the possibility that it could happen.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:23 AM on July 30, 2013 [16 favorites]
The riots look like lame vandalism and there is a party feel to it. And then a random chopped up fist fight that looks like it might be road rage.
Metafilter, you lost me on this one...
Before and after the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin trial, every major news outlet (conservative ones in particular) seemed overly concerned as to when angry black folk were going to start getting
posted by zombieflanders at 9:23 AM on July 30, 2013 [16 favorites]
What can you do when a culture of white, surfing violence is celebrated in the media?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:24 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:24 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
Who would have thought Point Break was actually prophesy.
posted by photoslob at 9:32 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by photoslob at 9:32 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
"I'm just tired of seeing young, belligerent white people disgrace themselves year after year at surfing events, horse racing infields, and Ivy League campuses."
Not to mention friggin' Chuck E Cheese's. That place is fight club with pizza.
posted by schoolgirl report at 9:44 AM on July 30, 2013 [13 favorites]
Not to mention friggin' Chuck E Cheese's. That place is fight club with pizza.
posted by schoolgirl report at 9:44 AM on July 30, 2013 [13 favorites]
"all their modern country music promotes the "redneck" lifestyle of getting drunk and being uneducated. That's not something to be proud of."
posted by jason_steakums at 9:45 AM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 9:45 AM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
fight club with pizza.
Quick! Someone call Chuck, we may have the making of "Fight Club II - Hot N' Cheesy"!
posted by edgeways at 9:48 AM on July 30, 2013
Quick! Someone call Chuck, we may have the making of "Fight Club II - Hot N' Cheesy"!
posted by edgeways at 9:48 AM on July 30, 2013
Man I don't really know. Reverse racism makes me feel almost as uncomfortable as racism. I realize that it's designed to highlight the overall ridiculousness by pivoting the targets of their "arguments", it just still feels wrong.
posted by graventy at 9:50 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by graventy at 9:50 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
I get the point of the article and I appreciate the satire.
After a point though, ironic racism and actual racism become indistinguishable.
posted by Renoroc at 9:51 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
After a point though, ironic racism and actual racism become indistinguishable.
posted by Renoroc at 9:51 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
After a point though, ironic racism and actual racism become indistinguishable.
Ha, ha, no. The distinguishing factor is that the targets of this piece--white males--are in positions of power and privilege, by default.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 9:55 AM on July 30, 2013 [30 favorites]
Ha, ha, no. The distinguishing factor is that the targets of this piece--white males--are in positions of power and privilege, by default.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 9:55 AM on July 30, 2013 [30 favorites]
Club Med sucks.
posted by Gelatin at 9:55 AM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 9:55 AM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
As a data point: shortly after our family relocated from Los Angeles to OC in the mid-1980s, my father walked out to get the paper one morning & discovered that someone had written "Jews get out" on our driveway. The unamused police officer confirmed that, yes, white supremacist skinheads were not exactly unheard of in our area. Welcome to OC!
posted by thomas j wise at 9:56 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by thomas j wise at 9:56 AM on July 30, 2013
I object to the word chuck. You have to say "the C word" now.
posted by mule98J at 9:57 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by mule98J at 9:57 AM on July 30, 2013
No such thing as "reverse racism", there is racism.
I think, perhaps, what separates this from "ironic racism", for me, is the fact stuff like "If that doesn't work, claim that you have a relative somewhere that is white, and are in fact, distantly related to Queen Elizabeth I", generally does not happen. The whole point is none of the language that was used there gets used anywhere. It is such a disconnect from reality. The major problem with ironic racism, or sexism is it is often used to disguise real racism or sexism, and generally is not that hard to tell when it is being used as such. Perhaps I am wrong? But I doubt this article is disguising racism as ironic racism, I think it is a good send-up of modern media practices.
posted by edgeways at 9:58 AM on July 30, 2013 [7 favorites]
I think, perhaps, what separates this from "ironic racism", for me, is the fact stuff like "If that doesn't work, claim that you have a relative somewhere that is white, and are in fact, distantly related to Queen Elizabeth I", generally does not happen. The whole point is none of the language that was used there gets used anywhere. It is such a disconnect from reality. The major problem with ironic racism, or sexism is it is often used to disguise real racism or sexism, and generally is not that hard to tell when it is being used as such. Perhaps I am wrong? But I doubt this article is disguising racism as ironic racism, I think it is a good send-up of modern media practices.
posted by edgeways at 9:58 AM on July 30, 2013 [7 favorites]
I feel like I need a bingo card for the inevitable Fox News morning show coverage of this if it goes viral enough, but I'm not sure if the free space should be "reverse racism", "blowing off steam" or "emulating 'urban' culture".
posted by jason_steakums at 10:00 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 10:00 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
Quick! Someone call Chuck, we may have the making of "Fight Club II - Hot N' Cheesy"!
I am Jack's gallbladder and greasy pizza gives him pains these days.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:01 AM on July 30, 2013
I am Jack's gallbladder and greasy pizza gives him pains these days.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:01 AM on July 30, 2013
Yeah, this is a good one.
posted by homunculus at 10:02 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by homunculus at 10:02 AM on July 30, 2013
After a point though, ironic racism and actual racism become indistinguishable.
Isn't this more satirical racism?
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:03 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
Isn't this more satirical racism?
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:03 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
I feel like I need a bingo card for the inevitable Fox News morning show coverage of this if it goes viral enough
Its clearly Drake's fault.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:04 AM on July 30, 2013
Its clearly Drake's fault.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:04 AM on July 30, 2013
Tomorrow will be the most beautiful day of Raymond K. Hessel's life. His breakfast of cold pizza will taste better than any meal you and I have ever tasted.
posted by edgeways at 10:05 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by edgeways at 10:05 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here is a Nov. 2012 SoCal PBS interview with an OC Register reporter about white supremacism in the OC, and the Inland Empire.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:06 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:06 AM on July 30, 2013
Isn't this more satirical racism?This is a satirical take on racism.
posted by ceol at 10:10 AM on July 30, 2013 [7 favorites]
no this is clearly racist because if you replace 'white' with 'black' it would be a racist attack on black people and black culture.
/s
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:12 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
/s
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:12 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's a big flashing sign that says "racism is really really dumb guys"
posted by jason_steakums at 10:12 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 10:12 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
Man I don't really know. Reverse racism makes me feel almost as uncomfortable as racism. I realize that it's designed to highlight the overall ridiculousness by pivoting the targets of their "arguments", it just still feels wrong.
The point of the article is emphatically not that this is in any way how the writer feels. It's that it's such a ludicrous and offensive way to write about people that it should make you feel unconfortable.
The fact that it's notable when the exact same things are written about young black men without shame kinda proves that 'reverse racism' doesn't really need to even be part of our vocabulary.
posted by graphnerd at 10:14 AM on July 30, 2013 [14 favorites]
The point of the article is emphatically not that this is in any way how the writer feels. It's that it's such a ludicrous and offensive way to write about people that it should make you feel unconfortable.
The fact that it's notable when the exact same things are written about young black men without shame kinda proves that 'reverse racism' doesn't really need to even be part of our vocabulary.
posted by graphnerd at 10:14 AM on July 30, 2013 [14 favorites]
The riots look like lame vandalism and there is a party feel to it
There was a party feel to the Vancouver riots, too. Doesn't mean it's not a riot.
Before and after the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin trial, every major news outlet (conservative ones in particular) seemed overly concerned as to when angry black folk were going to start getting uppity violent.
I think this was probably news outlets exploiting any residual fears that might be left over from the LA riots. It's not often we get a trial where race figures in so prominently in the public eye, but hey newsdudes, maybe wait til something's actually happening before reporting on it.
posted by Hoopo at 10:21 AM on July 30, 2013
There was a party feel to the Vancouver riots, too. Doesn't mean it's not a riot.
Before and after the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin trial, every major news outlet (conservative ones in particular) seemed overly concerned as to when angry black folk were going to start getting uppity violent.
I think this was probably news outlets exploiting any residual fears that might be left over from the LA riots. It's not often we get a trial where race figures in so prominently in the public eye, but hey newsdudes, maybe wait til something's actually happening before reporting on it.
posted by Hoopo at 10:21 AM on July 30, 2013
I think this was probably news outlets exploiting any residual fears that might be left over from the LA riots.
The fact that these residual fears lingered for twenty fucking years is proof that they were racist fears.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:24 AM on July 30, 2013 [10 favorites]
The fact that these residual fears lingered for twenty fucking years is proof that they were racist fears.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:24 AM on July 30, 2013 [10 favorites]
This is a satirical take on racism.
True enough. Personally, I am coming to loathe the term "ironic racism," because it always pretty much seems to be "racism with plausible deniability."
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:35 AM on July 30, 2013 [9 favorites]
True enough. Personally, I am coming to loathe the term "ironic racism," because it always pretty much seems to be "racism with plausible deniability."
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:35 AM on July 30, 2013 [9 favorites]
Closer to 200+ years but your point stands.
posted by elizardbits at 10:36 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by elizardbits at 10:36 AM on July 30, 2013
The author did a search-and-replace from black to white. How astoundingly original.
While the criminal justice system is slanted against minorities, and racism is misguided, it hardly means that there aren't real differences that underlie racial anxieties. How these differences should be used in decision-making is a separate question. That's the nuance that most people aren't grasping.
It isn't white people who commit violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage in the population. It isn't white people who commit the vast majority of larcenies, rapes, and murders in places like NYC.
Conversely, it's white people who commit more financial crimes. If you see someone who was arrested for insider trading, you can safely assume it was more likely a white than a black person. The same is likely true for a lot of other white-collar crime.
Let's not block out reality here. There are real differences in subsections of the races that contributes to the public perception of them and to stereotypes.
posted by shivohum at 10:38 AM on July 30, 2013
While the criminal justice system is slanted against minorities, and racism is misguided, it hardly means that there aren't real differences that underlie racial anxieties. How these differences should be used in decision-making is a separate question. That's the nuance that most people aren't grasping.
It isn't white people who commit violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage in the population. It isn't white people who commit the vast majority of larcenies, rapes, and murders in places like NYC.
Conversely, it's white people who commit more financial crimes. If you see someone who was arrested for insider trading, you can safely assume it was more likely a white than a black person. The same is likely true for a lot of other white-collar crime.
Let's not block out reality here. There are real differences in subsections of the races that contributes to the public perception of them and to stereotypes.
posted by shivohum at 10:38 AM on July 30, 2013
It isn't white people who commit violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage in the population. It isn't white people who commit the vast majority of larcenies, rapes, and murders in places like NYC.
True, it's poor people, of all races.
posted by jessamyn at 10:42 AM on July 30, 2013 [20 favorites]
True, it's poor people, of all races.
posted by jessamyn at 10:42 AM on July 30, 2013 [20 favorites]
It isn't white people who commit are arrested for violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage in the population. It isn't white people who commit are arrested for the vast majority of larcenies, rapes, and murders in places like NYC.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 10:44 AM on July 30, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 10:44 AM on July 30, 2013 [14 favorites]
I consider myself about as fairminded as a white person could get. And yet that whole thing was a suckerpunch to the gut.
Amazing. Thanks for posting it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 10:44 AM on July 30, 2013 [9 favorites]
Amazing. Thanks for posting it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 10:44 AM on July 30, 2013 [9 favorites]
There are real differences in subsections of the races that contributes to the public perception of them and to stereotypes.
There really aren't.
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:45 AM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
There really aren't.
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:45 AM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
MetaFilter: Subsections of the races
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 10:50 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 10:50 AM on July 30, 2013
Let's not block out reality here. There are real differences in subsections of the races that contributes to the public perception of them and to stereotypes.
That... really is just too precious by half.
posted by edgeways at 10:54 AM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
That... really is just too precious by half.
posted by edgeways at 10:54 AM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
True, it's poor people, of all races.
And, it goes without saying*, that poverty and race are inexorably linked in the US because systemic barriers that keep non-whites from all manner of economic opportunity.**
* I kid, it has to be said all the time.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:55 AM on July 30, 2013 [7 favorites]
And, it goes without saying*, that poverty and race are inexorably linked in the US because systemic barriers that keep non-whites from all manner of economic opportunity.**
* I kid, it has to be said all the time.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:55 AM on July 30, 2013 [7 favorites]
This isn't really all that funny when you consider this happens all the time.
I live near Columbia and I hate leaving the house Friday or Saturday night because there are fistfights on Broadway, there are kids puking all over the sidewalk, there are kids falling in the street in traffic, kids breaking random shit.
Nobody ever gets arrested except one time and it made the news.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2013
I live near Columbia and I hate leaving the house Friday or Saturday night because there are fistfights on Broadway, there are kids puking all over the sidewalk, there are kids falling in the street in traffic, kids breaking random shit.
Nobody ever gets arrested except one time and it made the news.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2013
Can we have a rule like 149,000 of the internet or whatever (not sure what number we're up to now) that anyone who uses the definite article in front of "race" is either about to or has just said something appalling and inaccurate?
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
It isn't white people who commit violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage in the population. It isn't white people who commit the vast majority of larcenies, rapes, and murders in places like NYC.
We don't actually know about the 'commit' part. We only know about 'charged', 'convicted' and 'acquitted'.
posted by srboisvert at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
We don't actually know about the 'commit' part. We only know about 'charged', 'convicted' and 'acquitted'.
posted by srboisvert at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
I consider myself about as fairminded as a white person could get. And yet that whole thing was a suckerpunch to the gut.
Amazing. Thanks for posting it.
Some days you come to the Blue, you see a particular comment on a topic that's important to you and your reaction is, "Oh my God -- somebody gets it. That's pretty much exactly the comment I needed to see on this subject."
St. Alia, your comment hit that note for me today. Thank you for getting it.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:59 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
Amazing. Thanks for posting it.
Some days you come to the Blue, you see a particular comment on a topic that's important to you and your reaction is, "Oh my God -- somebody gets it. That's pretty much exactly the comment I needed to see on this subject."
St. Alia, your comment hit that note for me today. Thank you for getting it.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:59 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
We don't actually know about the 'commit' part. We only know about 'charged', 'convicted' and 'acquitted
This. I've been sent home with nothing more than a slap on the wrist a few times in my day. I don't think everyone everywhere gets the same treatment.
posted by Hoopo at 11:00 AM on July 30, 2013
This. I've been sent home with nothing more than a slap on the wrist a few times in my day. I don't think everyone everywhere gets the same treatment.
posted by Hoopo at 11:00 AM on July 30, 2013
It isn't Alaskans who who commit violent crimes in Arizona far out of proportion to their percentage in the population in the United States. It isn't Alaskans who commit the vast majority of larcenies, rapes, and murders in places like Tempe.
Conversely, it's Alaskans who commit more crimes in Alaska. If you see someone who was arrested for robbing a store in Nome, you can safely assume it was more likely an Alaskan than an Arizonian. The same is likely true for a lot of other Alaskan crime.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:00 AM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
Conversely, it's Alaskans who commit more crimes in Alaska. If you see someone who was arrested for robbing a store in Nome, you can safely assume it was more likely an Alaskan than an Arizonian. The same is likely true for a lot of other Alaskan crime.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:00 AM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
"It isn't white people who commit violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage in the population. It isn't white people who commit the vast majority of larcenies, rapes, and murders in places like NYC."
This perception didn't come out of nowhere. It was deliberately engineered for a purpose, and its not a pretty one.
This perception didn't come out of nowhere. It was deliberately engineered for a purpose, and its not a pretty one.
Slavery by Another Nameposted by Blasdelb at 11:06 AM on July 30, 2013 [9 favorites]
Directed by Sam Pollard, produced by Catherine Allan and Douglas Blackmon, written by Sheila Curran Bernard, the tpt National Productions project is based on the 2009 Pulitzer Prize-winning book by Blackmon. Slavery by Another Name challenges one of our country’s most cherished assumptions: the belief that slavery ended with Abraham Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation of 1863. The documentary recounts how in the years following the Civil War, insidious new forms of forced labor emerged in the American South, keeping hundreds of thousands of African Americans in bondage, trapping them in a brutal system that would persist until the onset of World War II.
Based on Blackmon’s research, Slavery by Another Name spans eight decades, from 1865 to 1945, revealing the interlocking forces in both the South and the North that enabled this “neoslavery” to begin and persist. Using archival photographs and dramatic re-enactments filmed on location in Alabama and Georgia, it tells the forgotten stories of both victims and perpetrators of neoslavery and includes interviews with their descendants living today. The program also features interviews with Douglas Blackmon and with leading scholars of this period.
When we came back to Canada after living for 10 years in Japan (with few visits home), walking around the downtown of my small, island-bound city was an edgy experience. The body language on the main street where the shitheads hang out (to my heightened sensitivities) seemed very "angular", "jumpy" and unpredictable.
It's a very white, Anglo town, and my wife has remarked at how grouchy everyone is. Perhaps the Protestant stock from northern England and Scotland has resulted in a dour, fighty demographic.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:09 AM on July 30, 2013
It's a very white, Anglo town, and my wife has remarked at how grouchy everyone is. Perhaps the Protestant stock from northern England and Scotland has resulted in a dour, fighty demographic.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:09 AM on July 30, 2013
Not to mention friggin' Chuck E Cheese's. That place is fight club with pizza.
True, but TJSotomayor says it isn't Snowbirds who are responsible. The real problem is Hair Hatted Hooligans.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:14 AM on July 30, 2013
True, but TJSotomayor says it isn't Snowbirds who are responsible. The real problem is Hair Hatted Hooligans.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:14 AM on July 30, 2013
whoa somebody made the there are more blacks in prison therefore they are bad argument. i'll note it on my internet birding checkbook
posted by angrycat at 11:15 AM on July 30, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 11:15 AM on July 30, 2013 [10 favorites]
Optamystic: "THAT was a riot?"
http://rapgenius.com/Mr-lif-home-of-the-brave-lyrics#note-65427
(to be fair I'm not sure if that bill was passed, but the intent was there...
posted by symbioid at 11:24 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
http://rapgenius.com/Mr-lif-home-of-the-brave-lyrics#note-65427
Systems exist so we never meet each otherIf 3 people is "a gang", then *that* was a riot...
Pretty soon from now they'll outlaw the word "brother"
And that's true if they see you walking with a crew
If you don't know, that means more than two
I'll tell you what they'll do
They'll pull over, hunt you over
Kick your ass, nightstick to your shoulder
I know it's unjust, as if it wasn't enough
If you try to fight back they're locking your ass up
::Annotation from that site::
Lif, sadly, is right on here. Senate bill S. 1735 made every major federal crime involving three or more people a “gang” crime eligible for enhanced mandatory minimum sentences. The bill also broadened the already very wide definition of a “criminal street gang”
(to be fair I'm not sure if that bill was passed, but the intent was there...
posted by symbioid at 11:24 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
Wow, I live that Lif track. That album is dope as fuck. Good commentary on the GWOT et al. I'm a white dude in the burbs and jackass roving white teens scare me more than anyone else. I was one of them (the wise cautious friend who occasionally loses it and everyone else goes wtf why not) five minutes ago it would seem, but I'm 33 with kids and a hell of a lot more scared of creepy fucking weirdos and groups of angry bros looking to start shit, and where I live those people tend to be white.
posted by lordaych at 11:38 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by lordaych at 11:38 AM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
BTW I never started shit with people, but there's still an intimidating energy that is palpable and I had to make serious uncomfortable efforts to eject shit disturbers, troublemakers, woman haters etc from my life.
posted by lordaych at 11:40 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by lordaych at 11:40 AM on July 30, 2013
Of course it was a riot. Why else would the cops show up in riot gear?
posted by birdherder at 11:41 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by birdherder at 11:41 AM on July 30, 2013
I love the Lif track, I don't live it... A fellow white boy who also grew up in a "rough neighborhood" and learned to appreciate the anger and discontent coming from a place of injustice (somewhere in Caracas in his case) introduced me to Lif during my immortal technique phase.
posted by lordaych at 11:47 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by lordaych at 11:47 AM on July 30, 2013
I thought I was good at identifying layers of context on the internet, and specifically metafilter, until I saw this thread. Here's how I read the Mefi comments:
>knowing smile
>knowing smile
>Poe's one-liner
>earnest(?) historical comment
>pointing out difference between racism and satire
>wait, was that distinction itself a sarcastic comment?
>I CAN'T HEAR YOUR INFLECTIONS PEOPLE I CAN ONLY READ THE TEXT YOU PUT ON MY SCREEN PLEASE INDICATE YOUR AFFECT SOMEHOW
posted by Taft at 11:48 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
>knowing smile
>knowing smile
>Poe's one-liner
>earnest(?) historical comment
>pointing out difference between racism and satire
>wait, was that distinction itself a sarcastic comment?
>I CAN'T HEAR YOUR INFLECTIONS PEOPLE I CAN ONLY READ THE TEXT YOU PUT ON MY SCREEN PLEASE INDICATE YOUR AFFECT SOMEHOW
posted by Taft at 11:48 AM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
You know who was responsible for that album "There's a Riot Goin' On"?
That's right ... a group of black people.
Think about it.
(And then please dance!)
posted by chavenet at 11:48 AM on July 30, 2013
That's right ... a group of black people.
Think about it.
(And then please dance!)
posted by chavenet at 11:48 AM on July 30, 2013
Also I think a lot of white bread boys and girls can relate if you think about a situation at work where you put up with shit to make it until it gets you nowhere, your morale is crushed, so you start taking a stand and all you get no matter how you try, what books you read, what you recite in the mirror is "why are you so emotional about this?" don't be so sensitive. Pay your dues. Don't feel entitled. Meanwhile the bigwigs swing a huge emotional dick and rule. Now imagine your whole life is like that and still this analogy is too precious.
posted by lordaych at 11:52 AM on July 30, 2013
posted by lordaych at 11:52 AM on July 30, 2013
When you flip the argument about crime in major cities and start talking about which groups are outsized victims of violent crime, people who want to talk stereotypes suddenly get quiet. The narrative of violence becomes one of victimhood and a clear lack of interest in the authorities in protecting non-whites from violent crime.
Quick fact, 65% of all murder victims in NYC are Black, who are 23% of the population. The numbers for rape and assault are similar. That's a clear failure by the authorities to protect Black people from violence.
posted by cell divide at 12:01 PM on July 30, 2013 [18 favorites]
Quick fact, 65% of all murder victims in NYC are Black, who are 23% of the population. The numbers for rape and assault are similar. That's a clear failure by the authorities to protect Black people from violence.
posted by cell divide at 12:01 PM on July 30, 2013 [18 favorites]
I think the essential point, and it's one that is worth revisiting again, is that black people are held collectively responsible for the actions of individual criminals (or even groups of criminals) in a way that white people aren't. When gangs of white college students repeatedly rioted at my college after football games, it was never referred to as a white riot or a race riot. There was no handwringing about a pervasive culture of criminality in white culture, even though, my God, look at movies like Bonnie and Clyde and the films of Johnny Depp and Easy Rider and Reservoir Dogs that celebrate white criminals, and murder ballads, and look at how frequently white people victimize each other with white on white crime, and therefore it makes sense to follow any white kid with a hoodie.
The fact that this discussion happens about black people and not about white people is not because circumstances make it inevitable. It is because there is a history of benefit conferred from racism, a history of painting black people as criminal and animalistic and uncivilized that benefited a racist structure, and that system has never really been dismantled, and so there are still benefits. And so when we discuss a black culture of criminality, or discuss the statistics of black people committing crime as thought it was blackness that is the important feature, and discuss black people doing exactly the sort of thing white people do as being specifically and particularly a black problem, it's not a useful discussion.
It's a racist discussion.
Reversing the discussion, in this way, reveals this to be the case. It's a good, sharp piece of writing. And this is not reverse racism, because, assuming there are racist tropes against white people, this is not one of them. This is a racist trope against black people, and it doesn't hurt white people, or reinforce a historic oppression, to flip the script like this.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:08 PM on July 30, 2013 [34 favorites]
The fact that this discussion happens about black people and not about white people is not because circumstances make it inevitable. It is because there is a history of benefit conferred from racism, a history of painting black people as criminal and animalistic and uncivilized that benefited a racist structure, and that system has never really been dismantled, and so there are still benefits. And so when we discuss a black culture of criminality, or discuss the statistics of black people committing crime as thought it was blackness that is the important feature, and discuss black people doing exactly the sort of thing white people do as being specifically and particularly a black problem, it's not a useful discussion.
It's a racist discussion.
Reversing the discussion, in this way, reveals this to be the case. It's a good, sharp piece of writing. And this is not reverse racism, because, assuming there are racist tropes against white people, this is not one of them. This is a racist trope against black people, and it doesn't hurt white people, or reinforce a historic oppression, to flip the script like this.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:08 PM on July 30, 2013 [34 favorites]
First, Huntington Beach should cancel any further, publicly supported surfer contests, until every one of the assholes who stood by or carried out this vandalism come forward to apologize and make restitution.
Second, this is one fallout of the "self-esteem" movement that had led to the breeding of entitled assholes.
I hope every one of them are found out and face a judge.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:09 PM on July 30, 2013
Second, this is one fallout of the "self-esteem" movement that had led to the breeding of entitled assholes.
I hope every one of them are found out and face a judge.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:09 PM on July 30, 2013
I feel pretty sure that there have always been packs of white, middle class entitled assholes. Not sure if the self-esteem movement changed things one way or another.
posted by small_ruminant at 12:12 PM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by small_ruminant at 12:12 PM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
Missed a good opportunity for hysterical reporting on white guys in "country" apparel intimidating people by standing outside polling places in the last election a la Black Panthers oooh nooo
posted by jason_steakums at 12:28 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 12:28 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think the essential point, and it's one that is worth revisiting again, is that black people are held collectively responsible for the actions of individual criminals (or even groups of criminals) in a way that white people aren't.
Exactly. I read a blog post the other day - I think I got the link from facebook, which means I'll never be able to find it again - from someone talking about how there are so many popular (and well-done!) TV shows there are that glorify and celebrate criminals. White criminals. Because they're white, their race is of course incidental - all those serial killers and drug dealers and mobsters and sexist ad execs are individuals; they do not represent their race.
I am sometimes (ok, often) a little behind the curve on what's cool on TV (and yes, I do own one, and I love it), but the only show I can remember in recent years that's in the category of the white-criminal shows like above is The Wire. Where race is very much not incidental.
posted by rtha at 12:28 PM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
Exactly. I read a blog post the other day - I think I got the link from facebook, which means I'll never be able to find it again - from someone talking about how there are so many popular (and well-done!) TV shows there are that glorify and celebrate criminals. White criminals. Because they're white, their race is of course incidental - all those serial killers and drug dealers and mobsters and sexist ad execs are individuals; they do not represent their race.
I am sometimes (ok, often) a little behind the curve on what's cool on TV (and yes, I do own one, and I love it), but the only show I can remember in recent years that's in the category of the white-criminal shows like above is The Wire. Where race is very much not incidental.
posted by rtha at 12:28 PM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
I've been reading The New Jim Crow, of late and it is a slow read due to the necessity of frequently puting down the book in order to avoid becoming violently enraged. This article says basically the same thing, only without citations and with snark instead of academic language.
The simple, undeniable, objectively true, fact is that the USA still has a deeply rooted systemic racism. Individual, deliberate, racism is a lot less common than it once was. But systemic, unconscious, racism is thriving. In a way we won too well when it came to driving deliberate individual racism into hiding. Now discussions of race often end with whites huffily declaring that they aren't racist when individual, deliberate, conscious, racism isn't the issue.
posted by sotonohito at 12:35 PM on July 30, 2013 [11 favorites]
The simple, undeniable, objectively true, fact is that the USA still has a deeply rooted systemic racism. Individual, deliberate, racism is a lot less common than it once was. But systemic, unconscious, racism is thriving. In a way we won too well when it came to driving deliberate individual racism into hiding. Now discussions of race often end with whites huffily declaring that they aren't racist when individual, deliberate, conscious, racism isn't the issue.
posted by sotonohito at 12:35 PM on July 30, 2013 [11 favorites]
When we came back to Canada after living for 10 years in Japan (with few visits home), walking around the downtown of my small, island-bound city was an edgy experience. The body language on the main street where the shitheads hang out (to my heightened sensitivities) seemed very "angular", "jumpy" and unpredictable.
It's a very white, Anglo town, and my wife has remarked at how grouchy everyone is. Perhaps the Protestant stock from northern England and Scotland has resulted in a dour, fighty demographic.
Interesting, that this is your experience. I must say, I have a similar perception, but from Europe. I have traveled and lived in Europe pretty extensively, and - anecdotally - no country has more street violence and menace than Britain. You rarely think of being assaulted walking past an idle group of young people, in Belgium, or Portugal, or Germany or wherever. But Britain - that's a different story, and I don't mean merely at pub closing times when drunken young people are eager to fight any passerby. I don't want to generalize, or claim it's somehow uniquely Anglo-Saxon (that would be ridiculous), but that's something I have frequently heard from other travelers too.
When I came to the U.S., well-meaning friends/acquaintances, would warn me about walking about, especially at night, in certain neighborhoods (the subtext was always racial); what struck me very strongly, is that this is exactly the same kinds of caution you hear from folks in Britain, except this would be more obviously class-based, "chav" sub-culture, "yobs", "soccer hooligans" etc..
As a good liberal, I have of course been conditioned to think of it as all a result of unemployment, youth disenchantment, lack of entertainment options, family structure disintegration, urban wastelands etc., etc., etc.; but it's hard to keep all those sociology-derived notions in mind, when you observe very closely a phenomenon like soccer hooliganism, or even these surfer vandals from the OP; heck, I was young once too - and I remember the odd dynamic that would develop when a group of young people got together (my friends!), were bored, had one too many beers, and decided to break some shit for kicks and giggles - and this in socialist paradise Sweden. Of course, if these exact same young people had just their skin color changed, the perception and the gutter press reports would have been very, very, very different - in Sweden too. There are a lot of cultural unspoken assumptions, racial fears and deep-seated prejudice that are revealed when it happens to be black people involved. We really can't seem to see past race, it appears, at least until now. Maybe in 50 years it will be different, but don't hold me to it.
posted by VikingSword at 12:50 PM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
It's a very white, Anglo town, and my wife has remarked at how grouchy everyone is. Perhaps the Protestant stock from northern England and Scotland has resulted in a dour, fighty demographic.
Interesting, that this is your experience. I must say, I have a similar perception, but from Europe. I have traveled and lived in Europe pretty extensively, and - anecdotally - no country has more street violence and menace than Britain. You rarely think of being assaulted walking past an idle group of young people, in Belgium, or Portugal, or Germany or wherever. But Britain - that's a different story, and I don't mean merely at pub closing times when drunken young people are eager to fight any passerby. I don't want to generalize, or claim it's somehow uniquely Anglo-Saxon (that would be ridiculous), but that's something I have frequently heard from other travelers too.
When I came to the U.S., well-meaning friends/acquaintances, would warn me about walking about, especially at night, in certain neighborhoods (the subtext was always racial); what struck me very strongly, is that this is exactly the same kinds of caution you hear from folks in Britain, except this would be more obviously class-based, "chav" sub-culture, "yobs", "soccer hooligans" etc..
As a good liberal, I have of course been conditioned to think of it as all a result of unemployment, youth disenchantment, lack of entertainment options, family structure disintegration, urban wastelands etc., etc., etc.; but it's hard to keep all those sociology-derived notions in mind, when you observe very closely a phenomenon like soccer hooliganism, or even these surfer vandals from the OP; heck, I was young once too - and I remember the odd dynamic that would develop when a group of young people got together (my friends!), were bored, had one too many beers, and decided to break some shit for kicks and giggles - and this in socialist paradise Sweden. Of course, if these exact same young people had just their skin color changed, the perception and the gutter press reports would have been very, very, very different - in Sweden too. There are a lot of cultural unspoken assumptions, racial fears and deep-seated prejudice that are revealed when it happens to be black people involved. We really can't seem to see past race, it appears, at least until now. Maybe in 50 years it will be different, but don't hold me to it.
posted by VikingSword at 12:50 PM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
After Trayvon, black families are angry. They should be.
I asked Hilary Shelton, director of the NAACP’s Washington Bureau and senior vice president for advocacy and policy, about these issues. He noted that the NAACP has always supported “swift and certain prosecution,” and has sought to increase police clearance rates for such crimes. He also noted the NAACP’s support for community watch, the Brady Bill and assault weapons bans, work of local NAACP chapters seeking to avert violence by “meeting with gang members and trying to steer them in a different direction away from gang life:”posted by zombieflanders at 12:54 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]We’ve seen the issue of black-on-black crime as a scourge on our community for a long time… WEB DuBois recognized these problems in the early 1920s. [But] this issue is being raised the way it is now to distract attention from the obvious racial justice problems in the Zimmerman case.I posed similar questions to Rev. Jesse Jackson. He, like Shelton, noted that most crime is intra-racial. He also noted economic hopelessness as a key factor in promoting crime:
We also know, from the work we’ve done, that poverty is a major purveyor of violence in our society. Violence is at its heaviest in poor communities regardless of race. And we know that our members are disproportionately poor. Averting crime, for us, is also the work we’ve done to create more jobs.In 31 cities, unemployment among black males is above 40%. In six cities, it’s above 50%. Add that to the arrest pattern, with 500,000 blacks arrested a year for marijuana, which wrecks your record for the rest of your life. … Can you imagine if whites faced a 40% unemployment rate?Jackson scoffed at the idea that he has ever downplayed black-on-black crime: “We were marching in the community with Father Phleger against the violence last Friday.” Sure enough, a moment’s Googling yields a 1984 headline, “Jesse Jackson decries black-on-black crime,” a 2012 headline, “Jesse Jackson rallies to stop black-on-black carnage,” and many similar entries in between.
Asked whether the Martin/Zimmerman case received disproportionate attention, Jackson responded that “Trayvon is the canary in the coal mine. He is a symbol of a national pattern.”
I feel pretty sure that there have always been packs of white, middle class entitled assholes. Not sure if the self-esteem movement changed things one way or another.
Let's put it this way: when little Johnny or Suzy come home to "you are the greatest little kid in the world and the most important person in the world; there is no one as special or unique as you"; or, "Johnny/Suzy, your painting is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen" - i.e. when young children are told over and over that they are the "best", and no attention or praise is given to the hard work that makes one the best, you end up with young people who have a tendency to fail to face real challenge, and end up as listless, frustrated victims of their own fear of not gaining praise for who they are, instead of what they are, and what they accomplish. Just look at the general, listless "floating" behavior of all-too-many middle and upper-middle-class males. It's been written about here, and elsewhere (no time right now to find a cite).
What gives a group of young men the right or even the "feeling" to the right to do what happened at Huntington Beach? I see the same thing in my neighborhood, where young white males are tagging everything in site, while they "live the dream" of becoming a model or sponsor for a scootering, skateboarding, or other extreme sport magazine. God forbid they would even think about reading a book. The untoward, irresponsible and disrespectful behavior in that HUntington Beach video remind me of them.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:58 PM on July 30, 2013
Let's put it this way: when little Johnny or Suzy come home to "you are the greatest little kid in the world and the most important person in the world; there is no one as special or unique as you"; or, "Johnny/Suzy, your painting is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen" - i.e. when young children are told over and over that they are the "best", and no attention or praise is given to the hard work that makes one the best, you end up with young people who have a tendency to fail to face real challenge, and end up as listless, frustrated victims of their own fear of not gaining praise for who they are, instead of what they are, and what they accomplish. Just look at the general, listless "floating" behavior of all-too-many middle and upper-middle-class males. It's been written about here, and elsewhere (no time right now to find a cite).
What gives a group of young men the right or even the "feeling" to the right to do what happened at Huntington Beach? I see the same thing in my neighborhood, where young white males are tagging everything in site, while they "live the dream" of becoming a model or sponsor for a scootering, skateboarding, or other extreme sport magazine. God forbid they would even think about reading a book. The untoward, irresponsible and disrespectful behavior in that HUntington Beach video remind me of them.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:58 PM on July 30, 2013
Riot or not, that's not surfing.
You can't spend the day surfing and come home pissed off. Actually surfing.
... that black people are held collectively responsible for the actions of individual criminals (or even groups of criminals) in a way that white people aren't.
Yeah. It's not just race. Soccer fans get a bad rap from the hooligans f'rinstance. In this case surfers. Although race is by far the easiest one to slip past the thought process.
Too much Red Bull mebbe.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:09 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
You can't spend the day surfing and come home pissed off. Actually surfing.
... that black people are held collectively responsible for the actions of individual criminals (or even groups of criminals) in a way that white people aren't.
Yeah. It's not just race. Soccer fans get a bad rap from the hooligans f'rinstance. In this case surfers. Although race is by far the easiest one to slip past the thought process.
Too much Red Bull mebbe.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:09 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
I blame Mr. Rogers for 90 percent of white on white crime.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:09 PM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:09 PM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
:/ I'm not sure that is the cause Vibrissae. I hear what you are saying, but there was an awful lot of that se;f-esteem parenting going on in the 70's, my parents included, and somehow it seemed we (Gen X, I suppose) managed to not be any more, or less fucked then preceding generations. Indeed, anecdotally there is a a lot to look forward to from the current young generation. So, with respect, without something more enlightening I personally mark it down to well-to-do assholes doing what well-to-do assholes have done for a heck of a long time.
posted by edgeways at 1:10 PM on July 30, 2013
posted by edgeways at 1:10 PM on July 30, 2013
The "kids these days" argument isn't really germane to the point of the article here.
posted by kiltedtaco at 1:20 PM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by kiltedtaco at 1:20 PM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
It isn't white people who commit violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage in the population. It isn't white people who commit the vast majority of larcenies, rapes, and murders in places like NYC.
Reposting an old comment because it's relevant:
There is some good research done by psychologists Martin Daly and Margo Wilson that addresses and dispels of the notions of the "irrationality of crime" and "crime as pathology". They write:
Reposting an old comment because it's relevant:
There is some good research done by psychologists Martin Daly and Margo Wilson that addresses and dispels of the notions of the "irrationality of crime" and "crime as pathology". They write:
There is considerable evidence that persons who engage in risky criminal activities discount the future steeply.What would make persons discount the future? Perhaps they have good reason to believe that they don’t have much of a future.
...in Chicago, there are large variations in life expectancy between neighborhoods, and expected future life span is a good predictor of neighborhood-specific homicide rates, even if expected life span is computed with the mortality effects of homicide itself removedIf the mortality rates in your neighborhood are high, and it is possible that you can die any day from causes outside your control, and you know it, taking risks and engaging in criminal behavior is quite appealing. Daly and Wilson are quick to point out that
such inability to delay gratification is usually interpreted as a sign of immaturity and pathologyand are quick to dispel the notion. They write:
steep discounting of the future is just what a properly functioning evolved psyche might be expected to do in the sorts of social and material circumstances that are especially likely to foster violent crime.posted by AceRock at 1:41 PM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
What gives a group of young men the right or even the "feeling" to the right to do what happened at Huntington Beach?
each other - it's not their parents or their teachers treating them like special little snowflakes that are the "best you" in the universe that causes this - i grew up in the 60s and 70s when that kind of thing was nowhere near a thing as it is now
no, it's groups of young men reinforcing each other because they made the football team or ride dirt bikes or smoke or whatever and they're the greatest because of that and because they can push other people around, just because they can and they get away with it
even so, it's not really self-esteem that drives it - it's lack of it
the first string stars of the football team at my schools might have laughed along at some of the jokes and rough play, but they didn't really do this - it was those under them, who had something to prove, that bullied their way through life
so there's the answer - peers attempting to pump each other up out of a sense of individual unworthiness - it has nothing to do with being praised as a toddler for some crappy picture one scrawled
posted by pyramid termite at 1:45 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
each other - it's not their parents or their teachers treating them like special little snowflakes that are the "best you" in the universe that causes this - i grew up in the 60s and 70s when that kind of thing was nowhere near a thing as it is now
no, it's groups of young men reinforcing each other because they made the football team or ride dirt bikes or smoke or whatever and they're the greatest because of that and because they can push other people around, just because they can and they get away with it
even so, it's not really self-esteem that drives it - it's lack of it
the first string stars of the football team at my schools might have laughed along at some of the jokes and rough play, but they didn't really do this - it was those under them, who had something to prove, that bullied their way through life
so there's the answer - peers attempting to pump each other up out of a sense of individual unworthiness - it has nothing to do with being praised as a toddler for some crappy picture one scrawled
posted by pyramid termite at 1:45 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
The fact that someone can successfully derail a discussion of systemic racism into a cane shaking rant about how kids these days are too soft and coddled is rather horrifying.
Regardless of whether or not it is true (surprise: it isn't) it has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand and while topic drift is natural, I'd recommend being vigilant against it in this instance. It's very easy to stop talking about race, because it's an uncomfortable topic.
Following my own advice, I'll introduce some statistics on crime, black people, and racism.
Every study conducted has found that drug use, and drug dealing, rates are remarkably similar between racial groups. In fact, when any racial difference has been found, it's been a slight tendency for whites to use and deal drugs more frequently than other racial groups; though the difference is within the margin of error and may just be statistical noise.
Yet, despite this fact, blacks account for over 80% of drug arrests.
This is not accidental. Richard Nixon's chief of staff recorded in his diary that when Nixon introduced the War on Drugs he emphazed to his cabinet that the key was to remeber that the real problem "was the blacks" and the solution was to devise a system which acknowledged that without appearing to.
In some cities upward of 70% of black men are, or have been, incarcerated. Due to laws prohibiting felons from voting nationwide around 30% of black men are disenfranchised. Mostly this is for drug crimes.
The image of black men as the criminal class is deeply ingrained in our society. Again, as people noted above, the vast majority of crime is intra-racial, that is most white crime victims are the victims of white criminals, most black crime victims are the victims of black criminals, etc. Yet the fear of the criminalblackmale is such that, to cite a particularly ugly example from the fallout of the Zimmerman acquital, white writers can unashamedly write that they have told their children to be cautious around black men. The fact that, statistically, their white children are more likely to be victimized by other whites, is generally not known, and is often disbelieved if it is known.
Which brings us back to the point of this article. The image of the criminalblackmale is so deeply ingrained that behavior which, when found among white people, is either completely ignored or regarded (at worst) as an individual failing, would if commited by black people be viewed as race riots and proof that "those" people are savages who aren't safe to be around.
Which is why some people say that there is no such thing as "black on black crime". Not because people who happen to be black don't victimize people who also happen to be black, but because the concept is a distraction from the real issue.
posted by sotonohito at 2:23 PM on July 30, 2013 [17 favorites]
Regardless of whether or not it is true (surprise: it isn't) it has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand and while topic drift is natural, I'd recommend being vigilant against it in this instance. It's very easy to stop talking about race, because it's an uncomfortable topic.
Following my own advice, I'll introduce some statistics on crime, black people, and racism.
Every study conducted has found that drug use, and drug dealing, rates are remarkably similar between racial groups. In fact, when any racial difference has been found, it's been a slight tendency for whites to use and deal drugs more frequently than other racial groups; though the difference is within the margin of error and may just be statistical noise.
Yet, despite this fact, blacks account for over 80% of drug arrests.
This is not accidental. Richard Nixon's chief of staff recorded in his diary that when Nixon introduced the War on Drugs he emphazed to his cabinet that the key was to remeber that the real problem "was the blacks" and the solution was to devise a system which acknowledged that without appearing to.
In some cities upward of 70% of black men are, or have been, incarcerated. Due to laws prohibiting felons from voting nationwide around 30% of black men are disenfranchised. Mostly this is for drug crimes.
The image of black men as the criminal class is deeply ingrained in our society. Again, as people noted above, the vast majority of crime is intra-racial, that is most white crime victims are the victims of white criminals, most black crime victims are the victims of black criminals, etc. Yet the fear of the criminalblackmale is such that, to cite a particularly ugly example from the fallout of the Zimmerman acquital, white writers can unashamedly write that they have told their children to be cautious around black men. The fact that, statistically, their white children are more likely to be victimized by other whites, is generally not known, and is often disbelieved if it is known.
Which brings us back to the point of this article. The image of the criminalblackmale is so deeply ingrained that behavior which, when found among white people, is either completely ignored or regarded (at worst) as an individual failing, would if commited by black people be viewed as race riots and proof that "those" people are savages who aren't safe to be around.
Which is why some people say that there is no such thing as "black on black crime". Not because people who happen to be black don't victimize people who also happen to be black, but because the concept is a distraction from the real issue.
posted by sotonohito at 2:23 PM on July 30, 2013 [17 favorites]
Compare and contrast coverage with Orange Crush party at Tybee Island near the predominantly black Savannah State University.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 2:28 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 2:28 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
I know why white kids near me do this. They know there is almost nothing they can do what will get them arrested. They figured out the system is rigged.
A couple weeks back I went to the store at about 3am on a Saturday morning. A drunken college kid was outside the store knocking over fruit displays. One of the stockers came out and tried to push him away. After a brief scuffle the kid's friends pulled him away. One of his friends said "stop doing that, you are going to get arrested" and the drunk guy said "what do you mean, do you see any cops here?". He was right, nobody had even called the cops.
When white kids do this it is youthful exuberance, or drunken shenanigans, or anything other than a crime. People do everything they can to keep him out of jail.
He can do this every weekend and still come out of it with an ivy league diploma instead of a record.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:44 PM on July 30, 2013 [13 favorites]
A couple weeks back I went to the store at about 3am on a Saturday morning. A drunken college kid was outside the store knocking over fruit displays. One of the stockers came out and tried to push him away. After a brief scuffle the kid's friends pulled him away. One of his friends said "stop doing that, you are going to get arrested" and the drunk guy said "what do you mean, do you see any cops here?". He was right, nobody had even called the cops.
When white kids do this it is youthful exuberance, or drunken shenanigans, or anything other than a crime. People do everything they can to keep him out of jail.
He can do this every weekend and still come out of it with an ivy league diploma instead of a record.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:44 PM on July 30, 2013 [13 favorites]
There was a lot of people on Twitter this morning saying that the Gawker piece was plagiarized from tweets by @thewayoftheid. Some of @thewayoftheid's tweets at least are in this Storify.
posted by larrybob at 3:09 PM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by larrybob at 3:09 PM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh, and getting back to Britain. So if we agree that it's not race based, because 'white kids do it too', perhaps it's all those nasty lower classes, infamous chavs in particular? Why, no. It can be the very tip of the elite too:
The irony of David Cameron’s riot condemnation
"British Prime Minister David Cameron has been unequivocal in his condemnation of the riots that have broken out across the London and other parts of the U.K. in recent days, decrying the scenes of destruction as “sickening.”
As a student at Oxford in the late 1980s, however, Cameron was part of a members’ club (the British equivalent of a fraternity), which ritualistically smashed up local restaurants. Unlike the rioters, however, Cameron’s club, The Bullingdon, was exclusive and notoriously elite.
“This is criminality pure and simple and it has to be confronted and defeated,” Cameron said on Tuesday, having returned from his vacation in Italy three days after the riots first ignited in the British capital. He added: “If you are old enough to commit these crimes you are old enough to face the punishment” (referring to the fact tha many of those involved are in their early teens).
The prime minister has never applied such strong words to condemn the actions of his former club. The Bullingdon Club — a members’ only dining society in the university preserved for the most privileged of (male only) students — is known for breaking the plates, glasses and windows of local restaurants and drinking establishments and destroying college property in Oxford. (The U.K. newspaper, The Independent, described it as a club “whose raison d’être has for more than 150 years been to afford tailcoat-clad aristocrats a termly opportunity to behave very badly indeed.”) New recruits are secretly elected and informed of this by having their college bedroom invaded and “trashed”."
Now, I don't know of the extent of Cameron's involvement in any actual vandalism, but the point is that it's an old, old, old oxbrigde tradition to have young men "go to town" wherein the vandalism becomes fodder for later memoirs and fond memories of youthful exuberance. Unlike, you know, the hard labor recommended for the lower classes for similar behavior - recommendations by these august vandals now safely ensconced in the ruling class.
posted by VikingSword at 3:23 PM on July 30, 2013 [10 favorites]
The irony of David Cameron’s riot condemnation
"British Prime Minister David Cameron has been unequivocal in his condemnation of the riots that have broken out across the London and other parts of the U.K. in recent days, decrying the scenes of destruction as “sickening.”
As a student at Oxford in the late 1980s, however, Cameron was part of a members’ club (the British equivalent of a fraternity), which ritualistically smashed up local restaurants. Unlike the rioters, however, Cameron’s club, The Bullingdon, was exclusive and notoriously elite.
“This is criminality pure and simple and it has to be confronted and defeated,” Cameron said on Tuesday, having returned from his vacation in Italy three days after the riots first ignited in the British capital. He added: “If you are old enough to commit these crimes you are old enough to face the punishment” (referring to the fact tha many of those involved are in their early teens).
The prime minister has never applied such strong words to condemn the actions of his former club. The Bullingdon Club — a members’ only dining society in the university preserved for the most privileged of (male only) students — is known for breaking the plates, glasses and windows of local restaurants and drinking establishments and destroying college property in Oxford. (The U.K. newspaper, The Independent, described it as a club “whose raison d’être has for more than 150 years been to afford tailcoat-clad aristocrats a termly opportunity to behave very badly indeed.”) New recruits are secretly elected and informed of this by having their college bedroom invaded and “trashed”."
Now, I don't know of the extent of Cameron's involvement in any actual vandalism, but the point is that it's an old, old, old oxbrigde tradition to have young men "go to town" wherein the vandalism becomes fodder for later memoirs and fond memories of youthful exuberance. Unlike, you know, the hard labor recommended for the lower classes for similar behavior - recommendations by these august vandals now safely ensconced in the ruling class.
posted by VikingSword at 3:23 PM on July 30, 2013 [10 favorites]
True, it's poor people, of all races.
I certainly agree poverty is a huge issue, in part because it is correlated with so many other problems, and figuring out causation is very hard.
But from what I can tell, poverty does not account for the entire crime gap, at least not between blacks and whites in the US. This sociological study (admittedly a decade old), for example, says that the black-white gap in homicides is only half explained by structural factors like poverty and divorce rate.
--
We don't actually know about the 'commit' part. We only know about 'charged', 'convicted' and 'acquitted'.
I have a hard time believing there's going to be much discrepancy here when it comes to serious violent crimes. There are problems with cross-racial identification, but that refers to a non-white person having trouble choosing which of two white people did something, or vice-versa, not whether it was a white or a black offender in the first place. So even if sometimes the wrong person is sent to jail, it's unlikely that they're of a different race entirely.
--
This. I've been sent home with nothing more than a slap on the wrist a few times in my day. I don't think everyone everywhere gets the same treatment.
For a drug crime maybe. No one's getting a slap on the wrist for rape or murder.
--
That's a clear failure by the authorities to protect Black people from violence.
I couldn't agree more. It's a tragedy.
posted by shivohum at 3:27 PM on July 30, 2013
I certainly agree poverty is a huge issue, in part because it is correlated with so many other problems, and figuring out causation is very hard.
But from what I can tell, poverty does not account for the entire crime gap, at least not between blacks and whites in the US. This sociological study (admittedly a decade old), for example, says that the black-white gap in homicides is only half explained by structural factors like poverty and divorce rate.
--
We don't actually know about the 'commit' part. We only know about 'charged', 'convicted' and 'acquitted'.
I have a hard time believing there's going to be much discrepancy here when it comes to serious violent crimes. There are problems with cross-racial identification, but that refers to a non-white person having trouble choosing which of two white people did something, or vice-versa, not whether it was a white or a black offender in the first place. So even if sometimes the wrong person is sent to jail, it's unlikely that they're of a different race entirely.
--
This. I've been sent home with nothing more than a slap on the wrist a few times in my day. I don't think everyone everywhere gets the same treatment.
For a drug crime maybe. No one's getting a slap on the wrist for rape or murder.
--
That's a clear failure by the authorities to protect Black people from violence.
I couldn't agree more. It's a tragedy.
posted by shivohum at 3:27 PM on July 30, 2013
I believe the rest may be explained by a huge portion of society telling them then are dangerous criminals every chance they get.
Let's get some sociologists to look into that.
posted by Ad hominem at 3:43 PM on July 30, 2013
Let's get some sociologists to look into that.
posted by Ad hominem at 3:43 PM on July 30, 2013
Well, they do often get a slap on the wrist for rape, if the victim even bothers to report it. I know people didn't bother to report the rapes done by the little princes at IU- the frat boys were a scary bunch of thugs because they could (probably literally) get away with murder. They definitely got away with violent sexual harassment, hazing, and gay bashing.
In high school my sibling and I also got sent home with admonitions about not hanging out with the wrong crowd. (The "crowd" was mostly white; we lucked out by having particularly innocent looking faces.)
posted by small_ruminant at 3:44 PM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
In high school my sibling and I also got sent home with admonitions about not hanging out with the wrong crowd. (The "crowd" was mostly white; we lucked out by having particularly innocent looking faces.)
posted by small_ruminant at 3:44 PM on July 30, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, I had a job running security clearances for a financial firm which was full of young white male stock traders (mostly Mormon from Utah, as a side note). Because they had all of their prostitution and sexual harassment charges plead down to misdemeanors- and it was a REGULAR thing that popped up on their clearances- they got to keep their jobs. The mailroom guy lost his job because his penny-ante teenage BS wasn't pled down by the public defender assigned to his case. He completely deserved his job. They did not. Our class system in action.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:49 PM on July 30, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by small_ruminant at 3:49 PM on July 30, 2013 [15 favorites]
I feel pretty sure that there have always been packs of white, middle class entitled assholes. Not sure if the self-esteem movement changed things one way or another.
Why can't white families instil more self-respect and discipline into their children?
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:49 PM on July 30, 2013
Why can't white families instil more self-respect and discipline into their children?
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:49 PM on July 30, 2013
I have a hard time believing there's going to be much discrepancy here when it comes to serious violent crimes.
I have no trouble believing this.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:21 PM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
I have no trouble believing this.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:21 PM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
The comments are good, but what's odd is that I saw this article yesterday, and yesterday the comments were mainly people laughing about that guy's left hook, and generally cheering the antics of the "bros". Anyone know what happened to have the usual idiot Gawkers overwhelmed by the ironic race-reversalists?
posted by chortly at 4:21 PM on July 30, 2013
posted by chortly at 4:21 PM on July 30, 2013
This was needed.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:30 PM on July 30, 2013
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:30 PM on July 30, 2013
The thing is that this is a joke about perceptions of white crime vs black crime, but it could also be an unironic headline in Australia. The Bra Boys and the Cronulla Riots are just two examples of what happens when you have a subculture mostly made up of drunken young males.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:35 PM on July 30, 2013
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:35 PM on July 30, 2013
I have a hard time believing there's going to be much discrepancy here when it comes to serious violent crimes.
This belongs in the dictionary next to "privilege."
posted by zombieflanders at 4:52 PM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
This belongs in the dictionary next to "privilege."
posted by zombieflanders at 4:52 PM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]
This belongs in the dictionary next to "privilege."
Are you seriously telling me that the massive discrepancy in the homicide rate between blacks and whites is somehow illusory? Do you actually have any evidence for this, or is it your "privilege" not to have any? I mean, this is approaching climate change denialism in its rationalization of inconvenient facts.
posted by shivohum at 5:44 PM on July 30, 2013
Are you seriously telling me that the massive discrepancy in the homicide rate between blacks and whites is somehow illusory? Do you actually have any evidence for this, or is it your "privilege" not to have any? I mean, this is approaching climate change denialism in its rationalization of inconvenient facts.
posted by shivohum at 5:44 PM on July 30, 2013
The fact that you are incapable of recognizing that more white people are not even charged with crimes, much less convicted of murder, is either hilarious or pathetic depending on how drunk/outraged/exhausted I am at the time of consideration of your wildly privileged beliefs.
posted by elizardbits at 5:48 PM on July 30, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 5:48 PM on July 30, 2013 [14 favorites]
The fact that you are incapable of recognizing that more white people are not even charged with crimes, much less convicted of murder
That "more white people are not even charged with crimes" is both grammatically incorrect and illogical, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. "Crimes" are not generic. The fact that white people are not charged with marijuana possession at the same rates as black people does not mean that white murder suspects get away.
Let me break it down for you. If someone is murdered, the police investigate. If they come upon a white suspect, they don't suddenly shrug their shoulders and leave. If they find adequate evidence, they charge that suspect.
posted by shivohum at 5:55 PM on July 30, 2013
That "more white people are not even charged with crimes" is both grammatically incorrect and illogical, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. "Crimes" are not generic. The fact that white people are not charged with marijuana possession at the same rates as black people does not mean that white murder suspects get away.
Let me break it down for you. If someone is murdered, the police investigate. If they come upon a white suspect, they don't suddenly shrug their shoulders and leave. If they find adequate evidence, they charge that suspect.
posted by shivohum at 5:55 PM on July 30, 2013
ohnoes my grammars have invalidated racism forever
posted by elizardbits at 5:57 PM on July 30, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 5:57 PM on July 30, 2013 [12 favorites]
Are you seriously telling me that the massive discrepancy in the homicide rate between blacks and whites is somehow illusory?
Certainly uncorrected for poverty and other issues that are affected, but not directly tied to, race....
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:58 PM on July 30, 2013
Certainly uncorrected for poverty and other issues that are affected, but not directly tied to, race....
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:58 PM on July 30, 2013
If someone is murdered, the police investigate. If they come upon a white suspect, they don't suddenly shrug their shoulders and leave. If they find adequate evidence, they charge that suspect.
I'm sorry but this is fantasy.
posted by AceRock at 7:15 PM on July 30, 2013
I'm sorry but this is fantasy.
posted by AceRock at 7:15 PM on July 30, 2013
sonohitoThe fact that someone can successfully derail a discussion of systemic racism into a cane shaking rant about how kids these days are too soft and coddled is rather horrifying.
This is a pure case of pot calling the kettle, black. And, ironically, more than a little ageist. Now, about systematic racism. Yes, we live in a racist culture, and guess what you just exhibited a group prejudice when you described my "rant" (as you called it) as "cane shaking". The implication is clear. That said, I could care less, but I think it's important to point it out to you.
Next: I stick by what I said, although I am open to being wrong about what the self-esteem movement has wrought. I saw a few comments downstream that countered my theory, and they make sense (e.g. edgeway's comment).
Let's face it, there is a culture of racism in America that leads most white people to see black people - especially black men - as dangerous. A lot of white people believe that to be true, cops included.
The historical roots of the dissembled black family - minus good male role models - is too long to get into here, but that has a lot to do with it, with the latter fact also having its roots in a complex series of socioeconomic reality that began when black people were forcibly uprooted from Africa into slavery (and, btw, let's not forget that some of those slavers were black. Going back before that, one also has to consider the role of power and economics in all this. Why slavery? It's cheap - i.e. you get a living, breathing human being that you can establish immediate economic, sexual, or other kinds of dominance over. Just look at the sex trade in Asia. Look at the "place" of women all over the world; many are little more than slaves.
And, if you think American culture is uniquely racist, I have a bridge to sell you. Racism is a lot worse in other places.
Back to Huntington Beach. Seriously, watching those assholes was very upsetting. I see roving gangs of young, middle-class white males ding stuff like this more than I care to admit.
I still say we need more municipal camera surveillance in our cities and even small municipalities. That many of those assholes are on camera is something I find very satisfying. A next step for jerks like this would be public shaming and humiliation. I can't stand the thought of Mommy and Daddy baling those assholes out and fixing it so that their darlings get little more than a fine and a little community service. Humiliate the bastards! Publicly!
posted by Vibrissae at 7:16 PM on July 30, 2013
This is a pure case of pot calling the kettle, black. And, ironically, more than a little ageist. Now, about systematic racism. Yes, we live in a racist culture, and guess what you just exhibited a group prejudice when you described my "rant" (as you called it) as "cane shaking". The implication is clear. That said, I could care less, but I think it's important to point it out to you.
Next: I stick by what I said, although I am open to being wrong about what the self-esteem movement has wrought. I saw a few comments downstream that countered my theory, and they make sense (e.g. edgeway's comment).
Let's face it, there is a culture of racism in America that leads most white people to see black people - especially black men - as dangerous. A lot of white people believe that to be true, cops included.
The historical roots of the dissembled black family - minus good male role models - is too long to get into here, but that has a lot to do with it, with the latter fact also having its roots in a complex series of socioeconomic reality that began when black people were forcibly uprooted from Africa into slavery (and, btw, let's not forget that some of those slavers were black. Going back before that, one also has to consider the role of power and economics in all this. Why slavery? It's cheap - i.e. you get a living, breathing human being that you can establish immediate economic, sexual, or other kinds of dominance over. Just look at the sex trade in Asia. Look at the "place" of women all over the world; many are little more than slaves.
And, if you think American culture is uniquely racist, I have a bridge to sell you. Racism is a lot worse in other places.
Back to Huntington Beach. Seriously, watching those assholes was very upsetting. I see roving gangs of young, middle-class white males ding stuff like this more than I care to admit.
I still say we need more municipal camera surveillance in our cities and even small municipalities. That many of those assholes are on camera is something I find very satisfying. A next step for jerks like this would be public shaming and humiliation. I can't stand the thought of Mommy and Daddy baling those assholes out and fixing it so that their darlings get little more than a fine and a little community service. Humiliate the bastards! Publicly!
posted by Vibrissae at 7:16 PM on July 30, 2013
America is uniquely racist. It may not be more racist than other places, but its history of racism is particular and distinct.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 9:08 PM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 9:08 PM on July 30, 2013 [5 favorites]
I THNIK MOAR GUNZ-LL HELP
posted by lordaych at 9:10 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by lordaych at 9:10 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
America is uniquely racist. It may not be more racist than other places, but its history of racism is particular and distinct.
BUT JAPAAAAN ‹/lazyjustification style="indignance:superridiculous;"›
posted by jason_steakums at 10:10 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
BUT JAPAAAAN ‹/lazyjustification style="indignance:superridiculous;"›
posted by jason_steakums at 10:10 PM on July 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
and yes that's a style attribute on a closing tag but damn the man
posted by jason_steakums at 10:26 PM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 10:26 PM on July 30, 2013 [3 favorites]
shivohum: May I point out that the scenario you dismissed is *exactly* what happened when George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin? The victim was black, the perp was white, the police shrugged their shoulders and didn't bother to investigate, and the state attorney was fine with that until mass public outcry forced them (44 days after the murder) to open an investigation.
As it happens, studies show that being white does tend to result in people being charged less often. It's difficult to get exact numbers, when the police elect to let someone off with a verbal warning there's no record. This goes back to the War on Drugs. We *KNOW* for absolute solid fact that whites use and deal drugs at the same rate as balcks, or somewhat more frequently than blacks. We also **KNOW** for an absolute fact that over 80% of people arrested for drug crimes are black. There is a massive, undeniable, racial bias in enforcement of drug laws. Why is it so difficult to imagine that enforcement of other laws might be similarly biased?
The rate of violent crime, again across all ethnic groups, has been in decline for several decades now and is at one of it's lowest ebbs in modern history. Interestingly, crime rates are largely disconnected from incarceration and arrest rates. We have more people imprisoned for violent crime today, but a lower violent crime rate, than we ever have. Largely it depends on where the police direct their attention.
posted by sotonohito at 8:23 AM on July 31, 2013 [11 favorites]
As it happens, studies show that being white does tend to result in people being charged less often. It's difficult to get exact numbers, when the police elect to let someone off with a verbal warning there's no record. This goes back to the War on Drugs. We *KNOW* for absolute solid fact that whites use and deal drugs at the same rate as balcks, or somewhat more frequently than blacks. We also **KNOW** for an absolute fact that over 80% of people arrested for drug crimes are black. There is a massive, undeniable, racial bias in enforcement of drug laws. Why is it so difficult to imagine that enforcement of other laws might be similarly biased?
The rate of violent crime, again across all ethnic groups, has been in decline for several decades now and is at one of it's lowest ebbs in modern history. Interestingly, crime rates are largely disconnected from incarceration and arrest rates. We have more people imprisoned for violent crime today, but a lower violent crime rate, than we ever have. Largely it depends on where the police direct their attention.
posted by sotonohito at 8:23 AM on July 31, 2013 [11 favorites]
May I point out that the scenario you dismissed is *exactly* what happened when George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin?
I thought someone might bring this up. Zimmerman wasn't charged because it was quite clear there would not be enough evidence to dispute a self-defense stance, particularly in a state with a Stand Your Ground defense. And they were right. The jury found exactly that. Prosecutors aren't ethically supposed to charge where they do not think there is enough evidence to convict. Public outcry is not supposed to affect prosecutorial decisions. That was wrong.
I think it's very difficult to see how rape, murder, and larceny suspects would be let off just because they're white. There is absolutely no relationship of these crimes to drug crimes. Yes, I can see police letting off white suspects for having some pot in cases when they wouldn't do so for black suspects. But certainly not for murder.
And as was said above, the vast majority of violence is intra-racial. Given the blacks suffer murders at a much higher rate than whites, that alone would suggest that blacks commit them at a much higher rate.
In order for the gap to be closed, you'd have to claim that tons of white people were being murdered -- by other white people -- and the police are walking away. This is absurd.
posted by shivohum at 9:52 AM on July 31, 2013
I thought someone might bring this up. Zimmerman wasn't charged because it was quite clear there would not be enough evidence to dispute a self-defense stance, particularly in a state with a Stand Your Ground defense. And they were right. The jury found exactly that. Prosecutors aren't ethically supposed to charge where they do not think there is enough evidence to convict. Public outcry is not supposed to affect prosecutorial decisions. That was wrong.
I think it's very difficult to see how rape, murder, and larceny suspects would be let off just because they're white. There is absolutely no relationship of these crimes to drug crimes. Yes, I can see police letting off white suspects for having some pot in cases when they wouldn't do so for black suspects. But certainly not for murder.
And as was said above, the vast majority of violence is intra-racial. Given the blacks suffer murders at a much higher rate than whites, that alone would suggest that blacks commit them at a much higher rate.
In order for the gap to be closed, you'd have to claim that tons of white people were being murdered -- by other white people -- and the police are walking away. This is absurd.
posted by shivohum at 9:52 AM on July 31, 2013
In order for the gap to be closed, you'd have to claim that tons of white people were being murdered -- by other white people -- and the police are walking away. This is absurd.
What planet are you from? In every city I've ever lived in, when the murderer and the victim are both seen as/actually are gang members, yes, cops will - well, not walk away, exactly, but even if they "know" who did it (but don't have enough evidence for an arrest), it's not like they're going to put in the kind of time they do when an upstanding citizen gets murdered.
There is absolutely no relationship of these crimes to drug crimes.
This is such a broad and inaccurate generalization that I'm...actually, given the rest of your statements in this thread, I cannot bring myself to be surprised that you said it. No relationship between murder and drugs? Larceny and drugs? Seriously? And off the top of my head, I can think of at least one local-ish (well, California, anyway - maybe Oregon?) case from sometime in the last few years when a suspect was charged with a bunch of things, including what was described as a retaliatory rape after a drug deal gone bad.
posted by rtha at 10:07 AM on July 31, 2013
What planet are you from? In every city I've ever lived in, when the murderer and the victim are both seen as/actually are gang members, yes, cops will - well, not walk away, exactly, but even if they "know" who did it (but don't have enough evidence for an arrest), it's not like they're going to put in the kind of time they do when an upstanding citizen gets murdered.
There is absolutely no relationship of these crimes to drug crimes.
This is such a broad and inaccurate generalization that I'm...actually, given the rest of your statements in this thread, I cannot bring myself to be surprised that you said it. No relationship between murder and drugs? Larceny and drugs? Seriously? And off the top of my head, I can think of at least one local-ish (well, California, anyway - maybe Oregon?) case from sometime in the last few years when a suspect was charged with a bunch of things, including what was described as a retaliatory rape after a drug deal gone bad.
posted by rtha at 10:07 AM on July 31, 2013
There is absolutely no relationship of these crimes to drug crimes.
I think there probably is a relationship between these crimes and being prosecuted, jailed, and disenfranchised for drug "crimes." Having a criminal record and having to survive prison makes it even more difficult to escape poverty and makes future criminal activity more likely, regardless of skin color. If whites were prosecuted the same as African Americans for drug "crimes," and were living under similar conditions of poverty, I bet there would be a lot more whites cycling through the prison system and committing other crimes.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:10 AM on July 31, 2013
I think there probably is a relationship between these crimes and being prosecuted, jailed, and disenfranchised for drug "crimes." Having a criminal record and having to survive prison makes it even more difficult to escape poverty and makes future criminal activity more likely, regardless of skin color. If whites were prosecuted the same as African Americans for drug "crimes," and were living under similar conditions of poverty, I bet there would be a lot more whites cycling through the prison system and committing other crimes.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:10 AM on July 31, 2013
I thought someone might bring this up. Zimmerman wasn't charged because it was quite clear there would not be enough evidence to dispute a self-defense stance, particularly in a state with a Stand Your Ground defense. And they were right. The jury found exactly that. Prosecutors aren't ethically supposed to charge where they do not think there is enough evidence to convict. Public outcry is not supposed to affect prosecutorial decisions. That was wrong.
You're putting the cart before the horse here. From the time the police arrived on the scene until the verdict was handed down, Zimmerman had it easy because the bar for self-defense was abysmally low, helped in his case by SYG. It's also worth noting that not only did half the jury originally vote to convict on either or both charges, but that at least one who didn't admitted to bias both before and after being admitted to the jury that would in all likelihood have resulted in a mistrial had the positions of the defense and prosecution been reversed. And that doesn't even get into the possibility of racial bias within the law enforcement and judicial systems when it comes to self-defense cases, especially SYG.
I think it's very difficult to see how rape, murder, and larceny suspects would be let off just because they're white. There is absolutely no relationship of these crimes to drug crimes. Yes, I can see police letting off white suspects for having some pot in cases when they wouldn't do so for black suspects. But certainly not for murder.
And as was said above, the vast majority of violence is intra-racial. Given the blacks suffer murders at a much higher rate than whites, that alone would suggest that blacks commit them at a much higher rate.
In order for the gap to be closed, you'd have to claim that tons of white people were being murdered -- by other white people -- and the police are walking away. This is absurd.
If you're going to respond to people talking about all criminal activity by pointing at a single crime, then you're not honestly engaging here. I don't think it's absurd to think that tons of white people are assaulting, raping, robbing, or abducting other white people and police give them a slap on the wrist, or not exerting the same level of due diligence during investigation, or even looking the other way. And I think the justice system, both institutionally and as among one's "peers" is as guilty if not moreso of doing the exact same thing.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:12 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
You're putting the cart before the horse here. From the time the police arrived on the scene until the verdict was handed down, Zimmerman had it easy because the bar for self-defense was abysmally low, helped in his case by SYG. It's also worth noting that not only did half the jury originally vote to convict on either or both charges, but that at least one who didn't admitted to bias both before and after being admitted to the jury that would in all likelihood have resulted in a mistrial had the positions of the defense and prosecution been reversed. And that doesn't even get into the possibility of racial bias within the law enforcement and judicial systems when it comes to self-defense cases, especially SYG.
I think it's very difficult to see how rape, murder, and larceny suspects would be let off just because they're white. There is absolutely no relationship of these crimes to drug crimes. Yes, I can see police letting off white suspects for having some pot in cases when they wouldn't do so for black suspects. But certainly not for murder.
And as was said above, the vast majority of violence is intra-racial. Given the blacks suffer murders at a much higher rate than whites, that alone would suggest that blacks commit them at a much higher rate.
In order for the gap to be closed, you'd have to claim that tons of white people were being murdered -- by other white people -- and the police are walking away. This is absurd.
If you're going to respond to people talking about all criminal activity by pointing at a single crime, then you're not honestly engaging here. I don't think it's absurd to think that tons of white people are assaulting, raping, robbing, or abducting other white people and police give them a slap on the wrist, or not exerting the same level of due diligence during investigation, or even looking the other way. And I think the justice system, both institutionally and as among one's "peers" is as guilty if not moreso of doing the exact same thing.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:12 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
In every city I've ever lived in, when the murderer and the victim are both seen as/actually are gang members, yes, cops will - well, not walk away, exactly, but even if they "know" who did it (but don't have enough evidence for an arrest), it's not like they're going to put in the kind of time they do when an upstanding citizen gets murdered.
Ok... but that actually just supports my point. Gang members are disproportionately poor and minority -- homicides by them would almost certainly fit the same profile.
What you're saying is that the gap is even larger than we think.
No relationship between murder and drugs?
The question we were considering was whether racially disparate arrests for drug crimes had a relationship to racially disparate arrests for violence. I think they do not. The police might let a white kid with pot go off with a warning because he perceives him to be at low risk to commit future crimes, whereas the (racially profiling) perception with a black kid may be that there is a much tighter link between drug crime and more violent crimes.
There is no reason the police would extend the same benefit of the doubt to a white person accused of murder, particularly, when it is likely the case that the murder is of another white person.
--
I think there probably is a relationship between these crimes and being prosecuted,
jailed, and disenfranchised for drug "crimes."
Yes, in that sense I agree.
--
From the time the police arrived on the scene until the verdict was handed down, Zimmerman had it easy because the bar for self-defense was abysmally low
I understand. But that was the law. Prosecutors are not supposed to charge where they do not think, under the law as it stands, there is enough evidence to convict.
To do otherwise -- especially under public pressure -- is unethical.
I don't think it's absurd to think that tons of white people are assaulting, raping, robbing, or abducting other white people and police give them a slap on the wrist, or not exerting the same level of due diligence during investigation, or even looking the other way.
You're not thinking something is absurd is not evidence. Do you have evidence that this actually happens, or is this just an assumption that confirms your worldview?
Because this would assume that the police don't actually care to protect white people -- is that the idea? That's why they protect white armed robbers and let them go? I'm sorry, this is absurd.
The amount of logical contortion to avoid obvious facts here is amazing.
posted by shivohum at 10:18 AM on July 31, 2013
Ok... but that actually just supports my point. Gang members are disproportionately poor and minority -- homicides by them would almost certainly fit the same profile.
What you're saying is that the gap is even larger than we think.
No relationship between murder and drugs?
The question we were considering was whether racially disparate arrests for drug crimes had a relationship to racially disparate arrests for violence. I think they do not. The police might let a white kid with pot go off with a warning because he perceives him to be at low risk to commit future crimes, whereas the (racially profiling) perception with a black kid may be that there is a much tighter link between drug crime and more violent crimes.
There is no reason the police would extend the same benefit of the doubt to a white person accused of murder, particularly, when it is likely the case that the murder is of another white person.
--
I think there probably is a relationship between these crimes and being prosecuted,
jailed, and disenfranchised for drug "crimes."
Yes, in that sense I agree.
--
From the time the police arrived on the scene until the verdict was handed down, Zimmerman had it easy because the bar for self-defense was abysmally low
I understand. But that was the law. Prosecutors are not supposed to charge where they do not think, under the law as it stands, there is enough evidence to convict.
To do otherwise -- especially under public pressure -- is unethical.
I don't think it's absurd to think that tons of white people are assaulting, raping, robbing, or abducting other white people and police give them a slap on the wrist, or not exerting the same level of due diligence during investigation, or even looking the other way.
You're not thinking something is absurd is not evidence. Do you have evidence that this actually happens, or is this just an assumption that confirms your worldview?
Because this would assume that the police don't actually care to protect white people -- is that the idea? That's why they protect white armed robbers and let them go? I'm sorry, this is absurd.
The amount of logical contortion to avoid obvious facts here is amazing.
posted by shivohum at 10:18 AM on July 31, 2013
What are those facts, as you see them, shivohum? You've done a lot of contortion and implication yourself, frankly.
posted by KathrynT at 10:23 AM on July 31, 2013
posted by KathrynT at 10:23 AM on July 31, 2013
I don't think it's absurd to think that tons of white people are assaulting, raping, robbing, or abducting other white people and police give them a slap on the wrist, or not exerting the same level of due diligence during investigation, or even looking the other way.
I think there's pretty good evidence at least that people in college, many of them white, are routinely able to get away with rape, assault, and drugs at a level unfathomable elsewhere in society.
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:35 AM on July 31, 2013 [8 favorites]
I think there's pretty good evidence at least that people in college, many of them white, are routinely able to get away with rape, assault, and drugs at a level unfathomable elsewhere in society.
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:35 AM on July 31, 2013 [8 favorites]
I understand. But that was the law. Prosecutors are not supposed to charge where they do not think, under the law as it stands, there is enough evidence to convict.
To do otherwise -- especially under public pressure -- is unethical.
The point was that there was evidence did support the possibility of a conviction, although it was difficult. This is backed up by the original jury votes and the appearance of bias among jurors that were peers of the accused much more than the victim.
You're not thinking something is absurd is not evidence. Do you have evidence that this actually happens, or is this just an assumption that confirms your worldview?
Judging by the disparity in harshness of sentences and application of the maximum penalty (including capital punishment), I'd say there is copious evidence that this happens within the justice system. So, yes, the harshness of the judicial system operating in concert with law enforcement is certainly a strong correlation. And that doesn't even get into the unequal access and support of the civil justice system for minorities when the criminal justice system is deemed to have done a poor job of defending or prosecuting (which, again, is a proven trend).
Because this would assume that the police don't actually care to protect white people -- is that the idea? That's why they protect white armed robbers and let them go? I'm sorry, this is absurd.
No, it's really not. When social, political, and economic inequality (including media perceptions thereof) are known contributors to actions within the law enforcement and judicial system; and white people (and white men in particular) are by far the most likely to benefit from those indicators, it's absurd not to think that the police will protect those with said advantages.
The amount of logical contortion to avoid obvious facts here is amazing.
Indeed.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:42 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
To do otherwise -- especially under public pressure -- is unethical.
The point was that there was evidence did support the possibility of a conviction, although it was difficult. This is backed up by the original jury votes and the appearance of bias among jurors that were peers of the accused much more than the victim.
You're not thinking something is absurd is not evidence. Do you have evidence that this actually happens, or is this just an assumption that confirms your worldview?
Judging by the disparity in harshness of sentences and application of the maximum penalty (including capital punishment), I'd say there is copious evidence that this happens within the justice system. So, yes, the harshness of the judicial system operating in concert with law enforcement is certainly a strong correlation. And that doesn't even get into the unequal access and support of the civil justice system for minorities when the criminal justice system is deemed to have done a poor job of defending or prosecuting (which, again, is a proven trend).
Because this would assume that the police don't actually care to protect white people -- is that the idea? That's why they protect white armed robbers and let them go? I'm sorry, this is absurd.
No, it's really not. When social, political, and economic inequality (including media perceptions thereof) are known contributors to actions within the law enforcement and judicial system; and white people (and white men in particular) are by far the most likely to benefit from those indicators, it's absurd not to think that the police will protect those with said advantages.
The amount of logical contortion to avoid obvious facts here is amazing.
Indeed.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:42 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
The point was that there was evidence did support the possibility of a conviction, although it was difficult. This is backed up by the original jury votes and the appearance of bias among jurors that were peers of the accused much more than the victim.
The law requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That is an extremely high standard, and given the very generous self-defense statutes, there is no way in hell -- other than through extreme bias -- that a jury should have convicted Zimmerman. Which means he should not have been charged in the first place.
harshness of sentences
This has nothing to do with whether someone is tried and convicted in the first place.
Do you actually have evidence of the police letting murderers and armed robbers get off just because they are white? Or is this only speculation?
and white people (and white men in particular) are by far the most likely to benefit from those indicators, it's absurd not to think that the police will protect those with said advantages.
The perpetrators of serious violent crime like larcenies, rapes, and murders are by and large POOR, and, since most violence is intra-racial, white criminals are mostly hurting other white people. So if the police are out to protect white people who have "advantages," well guess what, they are going to go after the white perpetrators of serious crimes wherever they exist.
posted by shivohum at 10:56 AM on July 31, 2013
The law requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That is an extremely high standard, and given the very generous self-defense statutes, there is no way in hell -- other than through extreme bias -- that a jury should have convicted Zimmerman. Which means he should not have been charged in the first place.
harshness of sentences
This has nothing to do with whether someone is tried and convicted in the first place.
Do you actually have evidence of the police letting murderers and armed robbers get off just because they are white? Or is this only speculation?
and white people (and white men in particular) are by far the most likely to benefit from those indicators, it's absurd not to think that the police will protect those with said advantages.
The perpetrators of serious violent crime like larcenies, rapes, and murders are by and large POOR, and, since most violence is intra-racial, white criminals are mostly hurting other white people. So if the police are out to protect white people who have "advantages," well guess what, they are going to go after the white perpetrators of serious crimes wherever they exist.
posted by shivohum at 10:56 AM on July 31, 2013
The law requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That is an extremely high standard, and given the very generous self-defense statutes, there is no way in hell -- other than through extreme bias -- that a jury should have convicted Zimmerman. Which means he should not have been charged in the first place.
Even for manslaughter?
Do you actually have evidence of the police letting murderers and armed robbers get off just because they are white? Or is this only speculation?
We do know that for lesser crimes this is indeed the case, and that the same Bush DOJ which was later found to have institutional problems related to civil rights tried to cover it up (emphasis mine):
[Harshness of sentences] has nothing to do with whether someone is tried and convicted in the first place.
Do you actually have evidence of this, or is this only speculation?
posted by zombieflanders at 11:43 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
Even for manslaughter?
Do you actually have evidence of the police letting murderers and armed robbers get off just because they are white? Or is this only speculation?
We do know that for lesser crimes this is indeed the case, and that the same Bush DOJ which was later found to have institutional problems related to civil rights tried to cover it up (emphasis mine):
“These findings demonstrate clear and significant racial disparities in the way in which motorists are treated once they have been stopped by law enforcement. The report found that blacks and Hispanics were roughly three times as likely to be searched during a traffic stop, blacks were twice as likely to be arrested and blacks were nearly four times as likely to experience the threat or use of force during interactions with the police.It would be absurd to think that this did not also apply to violent crimes. In fact, I think it would be absurd to think that this trend didn't get worse in those cases due to the aforementioned inequalities and perceptions of law enforcement and the judicial system.
[...]
“Moreover, there was a significant figure left out of this report – the racial breakdown of the number of searches that resulted in the discovery of illegal contraband. Previous reports demonstrated that while black and Hispanic drivers were more likely than whites to be searched by law enforcement during traffic stops, they were less likely to be harboring contraband. In 2005 the Justice Department went so far as to try to conceal these numbers. They even demoted the official, Lawrence A. Greenfeld, who compiled them. This report makes no mention of the racial breakdown of the hit rate. It’s an eerie silence and the Justice Department needs to explain why this is not in the report.”
[Harshness of sentences] has nothing to do with whether someone is tried and convicted in the first place.
Do you actually have evidence of this, or is this only speculation?
posted by zombieflanders at 11:43 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
Even if you were to accept that white murderers are no more likely to escape arrest or conviction, I think you have to consider the effects of selective prosecution of lower-level crimes. Due to the racial bias is policing drug activity, we have created a society where whites are allowed to use and traffic drugs in a relatively low-risk environment, whereas for blacks the risks of arrest is much, much higher. Considering that a huge number of murders are drug-related, I think you have to consider the drastically higher stakes that are facing a black man involved in drug activity. I think its likely that higher stakes are inevitably going to lead to more violence.
posted by parallellines at 11:52 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by parallellines at 11:52 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's absurd to think that tons of white people are assaulting, raping, robbing, or abducting other white people and police give them a slap on the wrist, or not exerting the same level of due diligence during investigation, or even looking the other way.
Penn State.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:08 PM on July 31, 2013 [7 favorites]
Penn State.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:08 PM on July 31, 2013 [7 favorites]
Another thing that is not being taken into account is the effect of bail (or lack thereof) on conviction rates. There have been studies demonstrating that the longer someone stays in jail, the more likely they are to either be convicted or to accept a plea bargain.
While poverty rates apply to white and black alike, the support structure for black families is often weaker - with less people in the extended family accessible and less people able to contribute to bail. (This is not because black families are somehow bad but because of a lot of systemic factors that have been addressed elsewhere here)
But what this means is that even if arrest rates are similar, conviction rates are higher for black defendants than white ones, because white defendants can afford bail more often than black defendants, and thus are less likely to accept a plea bargain, and more likely to do better in court, having more time to prepare, and looking less like a criminal.
posted by corb at 1:19 PM on July 31, 2013
While poverty rates apply to white and black alike, the support structure for black families is often weaker - with less people in the extended family accessible and less people able to contribute to bail. (This is not because black families are somehow bad but because of a lot of systemic factors that have been addressed elsewhere here)
But what this means is that even if arrest rates are similar, conviction rates are higher for black defendants than white ones, because white defendants can afford bail more often than black defendants, and thus are less likely to accept a plea bargain, and more likely to do better in court, having more time to prepare, and looking less like a criminal.
posted by corb at 1:19 PM on July 31, 2013
Two things worth considering for the discussion going on in this part of the thread:
- No arrests in the murder of Biggie Smalls and Tupac, two pop music superstars slain in public in major metropolitan areas with multiple witnesses. If there are examples of white superstars who have been killed in similar circumstances with no arrests made in the years following, I'd love to know of them-- and I mean *superstars* here, not small time performers who got in bad with the mob and were killed in their homes or in a back alley.
- High profile incidents where white people who harm their children, spouses, or themselves are able to buy themselves some space and time by claiming that one or more black men were responsible for the crime. (e.g. Susan Smith, Bonnie Sweeten, Charles Stuart, etc.) I don't know of any examples where a black person has been able to put the dogs off his or her trail by aiming investigators at an unidentified white perpetrator.
Just sayin'....
posted by lord_wolf at 1:41 PM on July 31, 2013 [5 favorites]
- No arrests in the murder of Biggie Smalls and Tupac, two pop music superstars slain in public in major metropolitan areas with multiple witnesses. If there are examples of white superstars who have been killed in similar circumstances with no arrests made in the years following, I'd love to know of them-- and I mean *superstars* here, not small time performers who got in bad with the mob and were killed in their homes or in a back alley.
- High profile incidents where white people who harm their children, spouses, or themselves are able to buy themselves some space and time by claiming that one or more black men were responsible for the crime. (e.g. Susan Smith, Bonnie Sweeten, Charles Stuart, etc.) I don't know of any examples where a black person has been able to put the dogs off his or her trail by aiming investigators at an unidentified white perpetrator.
Just sayin'....
posted by lord_wolf at 1:41 PM on July 31, 2013 [5 favorites]
A few months ago I saw a blog (perhaps a tumblr) that collected incidents like this one and used them as evidence of "white-on-white violence" or the pathologies of "white culture" -- making the same point as this Gawker article about the racialized way in which "criminal" actions are portrayed.
Does anyone else remember this?
posted by dhens at 2:10 PM on July 31, 2013
Does anyone else remember this?
posted by dhens at 2:10 PM on July 31, 2013
Watch Cord Jefferson Discuss the White Culture of Violence on MSNBC
posted by homunculus at 2:11 PM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 2:11 PM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]
fwiw, and this is purely anecdotal so take with the proverbial bolder of salt. I use to live in a small Northern Wisconsin community that has a moderately sized music venue that runs during the summer and attracts decently big names, if not "A" list definitely A- list.
One of the co-founders and artistic directors of the outfit was no-tor-ious for his ongoing and persistent sexual harassment. We're not talking rape, but definitely just shy. This was something that went on for literally decades, but was very much overlooked and joked about during all that time. In the same span of time I can't tell you how many Native Americans in the area where arrested and jailed for similar, and perhaps not as persistent, behavior.
A few years back, he was finally arrested and given probation and ordered to treatment.
.
I got a whole bucketful of stories like this.
posted by edgeways at 2:35 PM on July 31, 2013
One of the co-founders and artistic directors of the outfit was no-tor-ious for his ongoing and persistent sexual harassment. We're not talking rape, but definitely just shy. This was something that went on for literally decades, but was very much overlooked and joked about during all that time. In the same span of time I can't tell you how many Native Americans in the area where arrested and jailed for similar, and perhaps not as persistent, behavior.
A few years back, he was finally arrested and given probation and ordered to treatment.
.
I got a whole bucketful of stories like this.
posted by edgeways at 2:35 PM on July 31, 2013
Shit, when I was raped in college, my (white) rapist and I were told to sit down and apologize to one another for the part we'd each played in the incident, and I was given the opportunity to move out of the dorm I shared with him to the shitty dorm on the ass end of campus. If I'd had the opportunity to slap him on the wrist, that would actually have been more just and more satisfying.
posted by KathrynT at 3:31 PM on July 31, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 3:31 PM on July 31, 2013 [7 favorites]
shivohum: I mean, this is approaching climate change denialism in its rationalization of inconvenient facts.
I agree 100%. "Racial bias in arrest statistics" is the equivalent of "urban heat island effect". It's something that is valid and has somewhat of an influence, but is dishonestly invoked to dismiss a large scale statisical fact.
The Gawker article OP links within the first couple of lines to this article at The Root.
The article makes the following claim:
The article ignores per capita offending (Blacks are roughly 1/6th the population of Whites) and attempts to make the point based on raw numbers. However in the case of murder and non-negligent manslaughter, even without adjusting for per capita rates, Blacks lead Whites 4,801 to 4,741. Remember these statistics are not from Stormfront or somewhere similar, they are approvingly cited by the article linked in the OP.
In order to achieve this disparity in arrest rates without police bias Blacks would need to lead Whites in murder rates by a factor of 6. It is simply not believable to assume that this is due to racial bias in arrest rates. For starters, as it stands, the rate of interracial murders between Blacks and Whites and Whites on Blacks is roughly similar. In general, most murders are commited by individuals against other individuals of the same race. This provides a simple "checksum" by which we can verify if reported rates of offending are credible. They are. In other words, since Black people are disproportionately victims of murder we can assume the Black people are disproportionately perpetrators of murder. To believe that these statistics are false we need to assume that White-on-Black murder is vastly more common than Black-on-White murder (as a percentage of murders committed by the two groups).
The race of murder victims is not really in quesiton. Therefore, to assume that the difference between Blacks and Whites in arrests for murder was due to racial bias in arrests by the police, we would have to believe either: that 5/6 White people who commit murder are "let off" my the police, who decide not to pursue that matter further. This implies 20,000 uninvestigated White-on-somebody murders. Or that a similiar proportion of Black murder victims who are assumed to have been killed by Blacks are actually killed by Whites. This implies over 3,000 supposed Black-on-Black killings are actually White-on-Black. Or some combination of the two. We have to believe that 75%+ of Black murder victims are killed by White people but blamed on Black people. The numbers are simply not believeable.
Many of the influences that would supposedly be inflating the Black murder rate are actually deflating it. For example, if we assume that the authorities are less likely to persue the case of a murdered Black person compared to a White person, then overall that will reduce the Black murder rate, since the majority of murders of Black people are committed by Blacks (just like the majority of murders of White people are committed by Whites).
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 8:55 AM on August 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I agree 100%. "Racial bias in arrest statistics" is the equivalent of "urban heat island effect". It's something that is valid and has somewhat of an influence, but is dishonestly invoked to dismiss a large scale statisical fact.
The Gawker article OP links within the first couple of lines to this article at The Root.
The article makes the following claim:
The term "black on black" crime is a destructive, racialized colloquialism that perpetuates an idea that blacks are somehow more prone to violence. This is untrue and fully verifiable by FBI, DOJ and census (pdf) data. Yet the fallacy is so fixed that even African Americans have come to believe it.and links to this pdf in support of it.
The article ignores per capita offending (Blacks are roughly 1/6th the population of Whites) and attempts to make the point based on raw numbers. However in the case of murder and non-negligent manslaughter, even without adjusting for per capita rates, Blacks lead Whites 4,801 to 4,741. Remember these statistics are not from Stormfront or somewhere similar, they are approvingly cited by the article linked in the OP.
In order to achieve this disparity in arrest rates without police bias Blacks would need to lead Whites in murder rates by a factor of 6. It is simply not believable to assume that this is due to racial bias in arrest rates. For starters, as it stands, the rate of interracial murders between Blacks and Whites and Whites on Blacks is roughly similar. In general, most murders are commited by individuals against other individuals of the same race. This provides a simple "checksum" by which we can verify if reported rates of offending are credible. They are. In other words, since Black people are disproportionately victims of murder we can assume the Black people are disproportionately perpetrators of murder. To believe that these statistics are false we need to assume that White-on-Black murder is vastly more common than Black-on-White murder (as a percentage of murders committed by the two groups).
The race of murder victims is not really in quesiton. Therefore, to assume that the difference between Blacks and Whites in arrests for murder was due to racial bias in arrests by the police, we would have to believe either: that 5/6 White people who commit murder are "let off" my the police, who decide not to pursue that matter further. This implies 20,000 uninvestigated White-on-somebody murders. Or that a similiar proportion of Black murder victims who are assumed to have been killed by Blacks are actually killed by Whites. This implies over 3,000 supposed Black-on-Black killings are actually White-on-Black. Or some combination of the two. We have to believe that 75%+ of Black murder victims are killed by White people but blamed on Black people. The numbers are simply not believeable.
Many of the influences that would supposedly be inflating the Black murder rate are actually deflating it. For example, if we assume that the authorities are less likely to persue the case of a murdered Black person compared to a White person, then overall that will reduce the Black murder rate, since the majority of murders of Black people are committed by Blacks (just like the majority of murders of White people are committed by Whites).
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 8:55 AM on August 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
If someone is murdered, the police investigate. If they come upon a white suspect, they don't suddenly shrug their shoulders and leave. If they find adequate evidence, they charge that suspect.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
*wheezing*
Sorry, that one caught me when I wasn't looking.
James Lee Burke said it best:
The truth is the good guys are understaffed, overworked, underfunded, and out-gunned. Most of the time the bad guys win, or if they do take a fall, it’s because a wrecking ball swings into their lives for reasons that have nothing to do with jurisprudence.posted by scrump at 6:18 PM on August 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you have ever been a victim of violent crime, or if you have been threatened by deviates or sadists-and by the latter I mean wakened by anonymous phone calls in the middle of the night, surveilled by people you’ve never seen before, forced to take public transportation because you’re afraid to start your car in the morning-then you know that what I’m about to say is an absolute fact: You’re on your own.
In order to achieve this disparity in arrest rates without police bias Blacks would need to lead Whites in murder rates by a factor of 6. It is simply not believable to assume that this is due to racial bias in arrest rates.
I think it is totally believable that the piece of the crime gap that can't be accounted for by poverty can be made up by selective enforcement.
posted by Lazlo Hollyfeld at 11:44 AM on August 3, 2013
I think it is totally believable that the piece of the crime gap that can't be accounted for by poverty can be made up by selective enforcement.
posted by Lazlo Hollyfeld at 11:44 AM on August 3, 2013
The problem isn't black or white, it's male.
posted by fullerine at 2:59 PM on August 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by fullerine at 2:59 PM on August 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
What is Not About Race
posted by zombieflanders at 7:30 AM on August 8, 2013 [3 favorites]Racially-charged sentiment infused the protests and split the crowd both politically and physically. Obama supporters congregated on the west side of the road in front of the high school and his critics lined up across the street. Obama foes at one point sang, "Bye Bye Black Sheep," a derogatory reference to the president's skin color, while protesters like Deanne Bartram raised a sign saying, "Impeach the Half-White Muslim!"Many on both sides wore red, white and blue and carried small flags. "It just kind of happened naturally," said Michael Pomales of how the opposing sides separated. Pomales, an 18-year-old Ahwatukee Foothills resident who graduated in the spring from Desert Vista High, said he decided to join the protesters side "to spread a little love" as the crowds began shouting at each other.Pomales said his response to people yelling for Obama to go back from where he came from is simple: "He's a great man. He cares about what I care about, education, jobs. He's our president. He's an American."Excuse me, but "racially-charged sentiment infused" only one side of the protests, the one to which Not Racist Deanna belonged. By telling a newspaper that the president is "half-black and half-white," Deanna, of course, was making a carefully nuanced argument against the president's immigration policies, and nothing more than that, because Deanna is Not Racist, and this was not About Race because nothing ever is About Race.
Deanna Bartram, a 17-year-old University of Arizona student from Black Canyon City, lashed out at people who call her racist for not supporting Obama. She believes Obama supporters use the "race card" against her because they disagree with her political message. "Obama is ruining American values. He is ruining the Constitution. He needs to go back to where he came from because obviously, he is a liar," she said. "I am not racist. I am part Indian. Obama's half Black, half White." "He's 47 percent Negro," shouted Ron Enderle, a 77-year-old Chandler resident who said that he and his son served as Marines and his grandson is currently serving in the Marines.Judy Burris said that she blames Obama for racism in America reaching heights not seen since the 1960s Civil-Rights Era. "We have gone back so many years," she said. "He's divided all the races. I hate him for that." She said that she brought her 12-year-old grandson Christian Cabrera to the protests because she thought it would be educational. "He's Mexican," she said of her grandson.Cabrera said he wanted to accompany his grandma "so I could protest about impeaching Obama."Judy is the true keeper of Dr. King's dream. This should be obvious. The president inflamed the country's racial tension by being both black and elected twice. This is the way things are, and it is not About Race, because nothing ever is About Race.
Rodeo Clown Dresses As President Obama at Mo. State Fair
posted by zombieflanders at 4:59 AM on August 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Just prior to the start of the bull riding event, one of the clowns came out dressed in this,” the posts says, referring to the photo. “The announcer wanted to know if anyone would like to see Obama run down by a bull. The crowd went wild. He asked it again and again, louder each time, whipping the audience into a lather. One of the clowns ran up and started bobbling the lips on the mask and the people went crazy.”So far, the rodeo clown has offered up an "if anyone was offended" non-apology, and the announcer--a district School Superintendent, no less--hasn't commented.
According to the post, a bull then charged the clown, forcing him to run away “to the delight of the onlookers hooting and hollering from the stands.”
[...]
“I felt like I was at a Klan rally,” Beam told the website Raw Story. “This isn’t a Republican state fair. I want to write the governor and the fair board, because I want my money back. This was shameful.”
[...]
Meanwhile, Perry Beam, whose photo sparked the outcry Sunday, later released videos of the incident. In the second video, an announcer can be heard saying, “We’re gonna smoke Obama, man. Are you ready? Obama, they’re coming for you this time…don’t you move, he’s gonna get ya.”
posted by zombieflanders at 4:59 AM on August 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
And it looks like the clown has been banned from future state fairs.
posted by rtha at 2:42 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by rtha at 2:42 PM on August 12, 2013
Yet another example of "white person does it, no big deal but if a black person does it, it's a transgression": http://www.kvue.com/news/local/College-Station-visitor-not-allowed-in-to-Kung-Fu-Saloon-because-of-his-shorts-219351611.html
posted by lord_wolf at 9:47 AM on August 13, 2013
posted by lord_wolf at 9:47 AM on August 13, 2013
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posted by rtha at 8:36 AM on July 30, 2013 [6 favorites]