My name is Roman, last name is Zolanski
August 2, 2013 8:48 AM   Subscribe

I played this song to my Sex And Drugs And Rock And Roll class in Caboolture, and it sure attracted some extreme (negative) reactions. “This is shit,” was the common consensus… all except me and this one girl sitting at the back who the previous week had revealed herself to be a Royal Headache fan and was sitting there with her jaw dropping, like me. It was the first time she’d heard it too. “I’m going to be buying the album tomorrow,” she said. More hardcore than Throbbing Gristle, more extreme than most ‘extreme’ punk hardcore and metal hardcore I’ve heard, and… wait. The video to ‘Stupid Hoe’ has been watched by 71 million people? What the fuck is going on? The alternative and underground is getting seriously left behind by this wanton and determined deconstruction of sound happening within the ‘mainstream’.Everett True posted by Rory Marinich (125 comments total) 12 users marked this as a favorite
 
I'm not really clear on which song he's referring to, whether he likes it, or why.
posted by cmoj at 9:06 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


'Stupid Hoe'. You might have noticed there's a link and everything, for clickings.
posted by Rory Marinich at 9:07 AM on August 2, 2013 [4 favorites]


More hardcore than Throbbing Gristle

Yes, but also--and probably more importantly--no.
posted by infinitywaltz at 9:10 AM on August 2, 2013 [18 favorites]


Wow. That video was insane.
Not being up on the current state of politics, can someone clue me in to whom, exactly, Stupid Hoe is directed toward? There seems to be a plethora of targets being aimed at in there. For instance, I'm getting a real GaGa vibe, for one.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:12 AM on August 2, 2013


This is what passes for industrial these days? I must be old.
posted by jdfan at 9:14 AM on August 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


The alternative and underground is getting seriously left behind by this wanton and determined deconstruction of sound happening within the ‘mainstream

he means "deconstruction of a roland 808" doesn't he? - she uses the same sounds, mostly, in "beez in the trap" - "roman holiday" seems a lot more varient, in an 80s kind of way

can someone clue me in to whom, exactly, Stupid Hoe is directed toward.

i think she's got some kind of feud going on with another pop star
posted by pyramid termite at 9:14 AM on August 2, 2013


My eyes, they roll.
posted by starvingartist at 9:14 AM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


The ratio of likes to dislikes on the YouTube video sort of confirmed what I already thought upon watching it: "Stupid Hoe" is an awesome song and an awesomer video.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:16 AM on August 2, 2013 [7 favorites]


This is incredible.
posted by basicchannel at 9:18 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also calling Lil Kim "Baby Bop" is hilarious.
posted by basicchannel at 9:19 AM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Azealia Banks musically fulfills the promises Niki's videos make.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:22 AM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm not sure what it is that I just saw and heard, but I am relieved that Nicki has enough cash on hand to afford the therapy and psychiatric care she appears to need.
posted by delfin at 9:24 AM on August 2, 2013


see also the Busta Rhymes/Minaj/Pharrell #Twerkit. The Bug seems to be the connective tissue in all this.
posted by bendybendy at 9:26 AM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


There's this thread in contemporary music criticism that I just don't understand, which is the drive to declare whatever suits your tastes in the instant the best ever thing (at least until tomorrow, when you hear the next best ever thing) and then throw a bunch of superlatives at it in an unbearably glib pseudo-analysis like the one quoted in the FPP. As best as I can tell it's a contrarian rhetorical pose that uses an ironic reversal of the high-/low- art hierarchy to poke fun at a straw-man aesthetic chauvinist, but for any one who's kind of over that whole business this sort of commentary isn't particularly interesting or enlightening.
posted by invitapriore at 9:28 AM on August 2, 2013 [12 favorites]


I love Nicki Minaj. I unabashedly love this video. And I love all her alteregos and their function as pop crack.

She, more than Gaga, more than Madonna, more than Michael Jackson, more than all the pop stars of the last thirty years is so simultaneously in the machine AND the machine and FUCKING the machine with her cartoonish inventions and deconstructionist sound that I wish I could write her a love letter and have M.I.A. (whom I also love) send it with a thousand blessings.

In other words, she makes herself into an object for a reason, y'all.
posted by whimsicalnymph at 9:30 AM on August 2, 2013 [16 favorites]


Which is to say I like this track, but I'd like to read some commentary that's more about the music and less about aesthetic axe-grinding.
posted by invitapriore at 9:30 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


There's this thread in contemporary music criticism that I just don't understand, which is the drive to declare whatever suits your tastes in the instant the best ever thing

You're using "contemporary" in the geological time-scale sense, I take it?
posted by yoink at 9:32 AM on August 2, 2013 [13 favorites]


He's making some provocative statements but not really bothering to back them up in any meaningful way, which is frustrating, because I want to hear his compelling argument for why Nicki Minaj is brutally transgressive in a way that makes Throbbing Gristle look like mewling kittens. Musically it doesn't sound too different from or weirder than a bunch of stuff going around at the moment (trap, bounce, whatever Major Lazer is doing with Jamaican dance forms, etc). And I also want to hear more about why this is female empowerment (I could see some argument being made but it's not directly obvious. Acting manic and calling someone a stupid hoe doesn't necessarily equate to empowerment, does it? C'mon, tell me about the symbolism of that yellow cage she's dancing in or whatever)
posted by naju at 9:33 AM on August 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


yoink: "There's this thread in contemporary music criticism that I just don't understand, which is the drive to declare whatever suits your tastes in the instant the best ever thing

You're using "contemporary" in the geological time-scale sense, I take it?
"

Point taken, but if the part of my sentence that you quoted were meant to stand alone I would have put a period there!
posted by invitapriore at 9:36 AM on August 2, 2013


if the part of my sentence that you quoted were meant to stand alone I would have put a period there!

I think the entire phenomenon you describe is pretty much the way it has always been. "I like this, therefore it's the BEST THING EVER because REASONS!!!"
posted by yoink at 9:40 AM on August 2, 2013


Well let me tell you what I thi~ WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP

And that's as a Nicki Minaj fan, so maybe take that with a grain of sa~WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP
posted by boo_radley at 9:47 AM on August 2, 2013 [10 favorites]


naju: "Musically it doesn't sound too different from or weirder than a bunch of stuff going around at the moment"

Yes, I thought the idea that you can make electronic music more "hardcore" by bumping the BPM slider up went out of fashion in the 90s.
posted by vanar sena at 9:47 AM on August 2, 2013


As someone who listens to extreme music, I enjoy this but it is not in any way extreme.

I think that because Pop music is tied, in its definition, to the fact of being liked, people need it to be every kind of excellent.

"The Beatles were the first to use feedback and sound collage in music."

"Tom Waits is avant garde."

just two examples off the top of my head

That you like the music you like is valid, you don't need to claim every kind of superlative in order to prove it. Just about anything you hear in pop music has been done earlier, and in a more extreme manner, by an unpopular artist whose music you don't like. Accept it.
posted by idiopath at 9:51 AM on August 2, 2013 [6 favorites]


Yes being the only critic to see the subtle genius in a popular thing is pretty old shit.
posted by SharkParty at 9:54 AM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


I love Nicki Minaj for the same reason I love Lil' Wayne: both are willing to go to extremes of ecstatic ridiculousness in pursuit of shit that sounds cool. "Stupid Hoe" is a great example--those voices (like a manic Missy Elliott), and that awesome cacophonous beat (like a hypercaffeinated Dizzee Rascal).

That said, I think Everett True's "more X than Y, more P than Q" mode of critical argument is pretty weak. Like, is "Stupid Hoe" more "extreme" than, I dunno, Swing Kids, or for that matter Xiu Xiu? Who the fuck knows, and what kind of question is that anyway? As Aristotle taught us long ago, "hardcore" is said in many senses.
posted by DaDaDaDave at 9:56 AM on August 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


As someone who listens to extreme music, I enjoy this but it is not in any way extreme.

It depends on how you measure extreme. Other artists may be more daring in a purely musical sense, but Minaj is able to take risks that other artists aren't, because other artists aren't on a major label with quite so much money behind them.

Throbbing Gristle, to use one example above, might be more extreme in a lot of ways but they don't have Minaj's ability to make a roomful of A&R guys break into a cold sweat and ask themselves if they're seriously going to send even the edited version of this to Top 40 stations, and what the respective cost of either choice is, in terms of millions of dollars..

There are some forms of extreme which can only be undertaken because an artist is so popular. I'm happy to admit that there are a lot of flavors of extreme, of hardcore, and that music journalist hyperbole serves no one, but I love seeing artists decide they're gonna do their thing and to hell with common sense, especially when those decisions might have repercussions for the suits at a major label.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:00 AM on August 2, 2013 [7 favorites]


FAMOUS MONSTER, I can appreciate that, but as musical events goes, it less music and more business intrigue. Excitement like that happens all the time on Wall Street, but I find it kind of boring.

Now if Niki Minaj somehow was able to optimize her web platform on short notice to handle a 1000fold increase in transactions without any downtime, I could relate to that and would find it quite exciting, but it would have about as much to do with music per se.
posted by idiopath at 10:09 AM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


OK, I haven't ever really listened intently to any Nicki Minaj before but "Stupid Hoe" is awesome. Love the interlude near the end where she shows off her singing voice just because.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:10 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


He's directly comparing the 'underground' and 'mainstream' though and finding the former lacking ("The alternative and underground is getting seriously left behind by this wanton and determined deconstruction of sound happening within the ‘mainstream’.") I think he should put his money where his mouth is and explain in detail why acts like Diamond Terrifier or Nate Young are no longer challenging/weird/whatever compared to what's happening in club/radio heavy rotation. That would make a good article, no sarcasm.
posted by naju at 10:11 AM on August 2, 2013


I made it a minute and a half. I'm going back to listening to The James Gang now.

I tried, but this video just gave me a migraine and made me feel old.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:18 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


The alternative and underground is getting seriously left behind by this wanton and determined deconstruction of sound happening within the ‘mainstream’.

There's absolutely a thing happening in rap right now where mainstream acts are mining a lot of underground and regional movements for sounds, and the awesome songs on the latest Nicki Minaj album are no exception. It's cool and daring that Nicki and her team have created this successful synthesis that makes effective pop music, but I think it's wrong to suggest that it's somehow in opposition to 'the underground'.

And when I say the "awesome songs" I mean just the awesome ones, because the album is half minimal, electronic pop rap songs (like this one) and half completely generic midtempo R&B ballads aimed at 14 year-olds.
posted by chrchr at 10:23 AM on August 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


As Aristotle taught us long ago, "hardcore" is said in many senses.

!?
posted by WalkingAround at 10:25 AM on August 2, 2013


Just stopping by to share that I too feel very old.

Whelp, back to this
posted by Otherwise at 10:30 AM on August 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


As Aristotle taught us long ago, "hardcore" is said in many senses.

Whoa, dude!
posted by yoink at 10:32 AM on August 2, 2013


Can I say that I am rather tired of a singer's image being part of the totality of their musical popularity? Can I say that no matter what genre, the music itself needs to stand on its own without us even knowing what the singer looks like?


I mean, I understand performance art, no beef with it at all, it's a thing, but my music appreciation is separate from it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 10:35 AM on August 2, 2013 [6 favorites]


Otherwise: if we are going there, this is what I was listening to when I clicked this link.
posted by idiopath at 10:35 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


You too can make a song approximately this good with only 20 minutes and a pirated copy of Ableton!
posted by zscore at 10:37 AM on August 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


Um, what?
This is supposedly hardcore? This is transgressive?
Peaches did it better, 10 years ago.
I mean, I can sort of see how they want to compare it to Throbbing Gristle, um, a little, if you really understand what Throbbing Gristle was doing with music as product. But trying to say this has any artistic merit beyond a Dis Track is kind of, um, hard to take seriously.

As for the video and the production, I really don't see anything beyond a few morph effects. I watched the video 4 times now, and can't pick out anything that bends the rules or even makes use of any heavy metaphor.

Lyrically the song has the same sensibilities of most consumerist claptrap. Stating how the singer is better than her rival because of x,y, and z items of fashion of luxury that she is able to afford and how much these things make her the better person.

This does not mean I cannot appreciate the pop star. I just find it quite, well, mundane and not really offering any commentary on some contemporary issue. Maybe I'm not parsing enough or reading into the lyrics beyond their literal meaning, but this does not reflect well upon, well anything of substance. It is all style, no depth. All flash, no heart. Is that supposed to be empowering? Does that make the artist anything more than a replaceable icon?
posted by daq at 10:37 AM on August 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


this is what I was listening to when I clicked this link

More like it! Kids these days....
posted by Otherwise at 10:42 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


You too can make a song approximately this good with only 20 minutes and a pirated copy of Ableton!

Yeah and my kid could paint that!
posted by chrchr at 10:43 AM on August 2, 2013 [9 favorites]


so simultaneously in the machine AND the machine and FUCKING the machine with her cartoonish inventions and deconstructionist sound

This is, I think, a really important idea that undergirds Nikki, that undergirds Ke$ha, that undergirds Gaga to a certain extent, and that's really a reflection of our contemporary culture in the best way. In the era of the Internet, it's not just that everyone thinks you're a dog, but that you can trick everyone into believing a dog is a human. We are now, culturally, self-definers, in a way that was once only reserved for celebrities. I think it's really fascinating when an artist responds to that by engaging in a commentary on self-definition in this way.
posted by Apropos of Something at 10:44 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Made me think of that Antwoord video.
posted by molecicco at 11:00 AM on August 2, 2013


No one's forgotten about Grace Jones, right? I like Nikki Minaj, but don't find her nearly as subversive.
posted by jokeefe at 11:10 AM on August 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


I dunno, Swing Kids , or for that matter Xiu Xiu?

Wow... SWING KIDS is the first heavy band you list off the top of your head?
High five, man.
posted by SharkParty at 11:14 AM on August 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


the track is produced by dj diamond kuts, who is a club dj based in philly. this style of club music has been played (even on the radio) in baltimore, philly, and dc for at least the last 20 years. baltimore club (google it) has even had at least one phase of crossover for white audiences, see MIA/Diplo.

(this post courtesy of enduring racial segregation in america )
posted by ennui.bz at 11:15 AM on August 2, 2013 [10 favorites]


You too can make a song approximately this good with only 20 minutes and a pirated copy of Ableton!

You can?! Jesus, man! What are you doing commenting here? You should go make that song right now because I understand Nicki Minaj is somewhat rich and famous. You can be too!
posted by echo target at 11:20 AM on August 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really wish Nicki would collaborate with Sparks. The choruses on "Roman Holiday" and "I Am Your Leader" remind me of Li'l Beethoven, and her camp sensibility and self-awareness would play nicely with the Maels.
posted by pxe2000 at 11:25 AM on August 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


It seems worth mentioning here that Nicki Minaj had a strong mixtape career before her albums came out. According to Wikipedia, Beam Me Up Scotty was her breakout tape, and it can be yours for the low price of free.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:36 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


I still prefer the slowed down version. She is the female Weezy.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:41 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


That's the thing, she's extremely talented (slowing it down actually helps to emphasize the precision). So why do we have to make up irrelevant and questionable hyperbole when there are solid things to call out? She has no reason to have an insecurity complex, so why should her fans have one vicariously on her behalf? She doesn't need to be extreme or profound, she's talented and fun and those are simply enough.

I wouldn't care but for the irony - being extreme or profound are career suicide in the music business, so why should the successful ones be falsely labeled with those qualities?
posted by idiopath at 12:00 PM on August 2, 2013


Sounds immature , flamboyant, juvenile and ugly. Where is the music? This is the disposable, garbage "music" they will refer to as the bubblegum of its time, in the future. Style over substance, as usual. Embarrassing.
posted by Seekerofsplendor at 12:03 PM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Where is the music?

...said my dad when I listened to basically anything, twenty five years ago.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 12:10 PM on August 2, 2013 [6 favorites]


can someone clue me in to whom, exactly, Stupid Hoe is directed toward.

Her defective garden tool, presumably.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:17 PM on August 2, 2013 [14 favorites]


Minaj is the tops. The vulgar loopiness of Come on a Cone isn't quite as bonkers as Stupid Hoe, but I dig it.

Haters would probably get a better perspective on her work by watching Nicki Minaj Demon Possessed Satanic Witch .
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 12:18 PM on August 2, 2013 [4 favorites]


yeah, following on what ennui said, Diplo et al have been packaging this kind of sound for non-clubbers for a while now. I enjoy much of it, myself, but there's no reason to think it's unique or particularly transgressive. Here's one good example and there's lots more where that came from
posted by $0up at 12:19 PM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Where is the music?

Have you checked your Victrola?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:25 PM on August 2, 2013 [9 favorites]


Heh, True could've written this piece, in these giddy terms, about any artist at any time in the last thirty years! I quite like him for it, even if he doesn't always strictly make sense or know what the fuck he's talking about.

I wonder if the Nirvana thing might have made him go a bit wonky, though - he boosted grunge from the inside until the rest of the world decided to agree with him, and everything since reads as the old trademark unbridled enthusiasm with just a teensy undercurrent of "Maybe this time I can do it again!". (Come to think of it, he did sort of do it again a little while later with Riot Grrrl - and, oh look, there's a Huggy Bear namecheck in this very weblog post!)

Not that Nicki Minaj needs any assistance finding her public, but still...

Sounds immature , flamboyant, juvenile and ugly. Where is the music? This is the disposable, garbage "music" they will refer to as the bubblegum of its time, in the future. Style over substance, as usual. Embarrassing.

Brilliant! Needs more not-terribly-subtle racism to really capture the tone you're reaching for, though. Can you fit "Miss. Minaj is certainly an articulate young lady...." in there somewhere? I think that sort of dogwhistle would really add a bit of bite to an otherwise pitch-perfect piece of satire.
posted by jack_mo at 12:31 PM on August 2, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm surprised that Everett True linked to the Azealia Banks song Atlantis - which is benign, if fun - and not Yung Rapunxel. I mean, this is an incredibly aggressive song, and the video is of a black woman attacking police officers with mouths for eyes and owls coming out of her forehead, surrounded by occult symbols. It's fuckin heavy.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 12:40 PM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Oddly enough, it turns out that when you make an FPP knowing exactly what every comment's gonna look at, the results are amusing, and not just irritating.

I look forward to the FPP in 2016 where people point back to this thread and laugh at everybody acting outraged/disdainful/contemptuous of Minaj, in response to people's getting outraged at whomever will be making provocative music then.
posted by Rory Marinich at 12:40 PM on August 2, 2013


Minaj is somewhat like Captain Beefheart, in that the first step towards embracing her music is to realize that, yes, it really IS supposed to sound like that.
posted by delfin at 12:46 PM on August 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


MIA actually might have some industrial/powernoise cred here with Meds and Feds, which rocks like a motherfuck. Minaj sounds like irritating garbage, but I'm pretty sure that's the point.
posted by FatherDagon at 12:46 PM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm going to second FatherDagon on the MIA. Paperplanes also had that proper sense of post modern mixup using the Clash sample in it, especially so heavily.
posted by daq at 1:02 PM on August 2, 2013


All I know is that I just watched a video about Stupid Hoe.
posted by Samizdata at 1:06 PM on August 2, 2013


I look forward to the FPP in 2016 where people point back to this thread and laugh at everybody acting outraged/disdainful/contemptuous of Minaj

Yes, all the - what, five? out of sixty-four? - comments critical of a song that came out a year and a half ago. Take THAT, you five square people!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:26 PM on August 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


I look forward to the FPP in 2016 where people point back to this thread and laugh at everybody acting outraged/disdainful/contemptuous of Minaj, in response to people's getting outraged at whomever will be making provocative music then.

Surely, then, there is an FPP from 2010 you could point to for everyone to laugh at.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 1:33 PM on August 2, 2013


Rory Marinich: Let me be clear, I have no beef with the music of Ms. Minaj, and I am glad this fpp got me to watch the linked video.

The thesis of the blog post you linked to, on the other hand, is inane (for reasons I mentioned previously in the thread).

Also, if you expect the consensus response to what you post to be derisive, how is that to be differentiated from trolling?
posted by idiopath at 1:34 PM on August 2, 2013


Because it's a great song and a great music video, durrr.

People here have stupid opinions about all sorts of wonderful things, yet we continue to have threads about them. No?
posted by Rory Marinich at 1:49 PM on August 2, 2013


Surely, then, there is an FPP from 2010 you could point to for everyone to laugh at.

No, People Being Wrong on the Internet is a new thing. It's gonna be big, though.
posted by yoink at 1:52 PM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


man, this song is great. I should listen to more Nicki Minaj.

For whatever it's worth, Everett True's been rocking this particular massively overblown style for decades and decades, so he's sort of a known quantity. I tried to get a hate-on going for him back in the 90s when he wrote for the Stranger, but I just couldn't, because under all the tweaky self-aggrandizement there's a remarkably interesting take on what music is/does/means.

Not to say there's not some eyeroll-worthy aspects of his stance and style,* but he can't just be dismissed out of hand.

*: I just now ran off to wikipedia to make sure that he's the same guy who I tried and failed to hate in the 90s; the very first paragraph on his page notes that he got into rock via the Residents, which like, I'm a dude who likes the Residents, but even I think that's a little... much... for someone to claim.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:06 PM on August 2, 2013


Swing Kids

I was totally expecting this to be a link to some other Swing Kids, not the SD band. Wow, memories.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 2:20 PM on August 2, 2013


Song sort of reminded me of Missy Elliott with more neon.
posted by Chuffy at 3:50 PM on August 2, 2013


This kid has Tina Turner's facial expressions down to a T.
posted by Ardiril at 4:28 PM on August 2, 2013


No one's forgotten about Grace Jones, right? I like Nikki Minaj, but don't find her nearly as subversive.

...yo, did you even watch the video? i mean, certainly nikki/hype williams haven't forgotten grace jones, given that the cage, the cowl hood and the pose & color palette in the opening shot are all pretty glaring references to her iconic album covers
posted by kelseyq at 4:29 PM on August 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


for any one who's kind of over that whole business this sort of commentary isn't particularly interesting or enlightening

True, but nowadays, for a music video FPP to stay up on MeFi without deletion, it must be accompanied by a bunch of bullshit filler text to prove its "relevance".
posted by Ardiril at 4:33 PM on August 2, 2013


I'm not sure what it is that I just saw and heard, but I am relieved that ___ has enough cash on hand to afford the therapy and psychiatric care ___ appears to need.

Can I say that I am rather tired of a singer's image being part of the totality of their musical popularity? Can I say that no matter what genre, the music itself needs to stand on its own without us even knowing what the singer looks like?

It is all style, no depth. All flash, no heart.

Sounds immature , flamboyant, juvenile and ugly. Where is the music?



Is there a script that will replace her name with the Sex Pistols so I can read through it again?
posted by The Hamms Bear at 4:43 PM on August 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


I don't know about Throbbing Gristle, but Minaj sometimes reminds me of Whitehouse. There's a bludgeoning quality to her that I quite like.
posted by Kattullus at 5:20 PM on August 2, 2013


...more extreme than most ‘extreme’ punk hardcore and metal hardcore I’ve heard...

Okay, maybe we're not using the same definition of extreme here... but no. Just... no. It's a pop song. Base != extreme.
posted by jeffamaphone at 5:34 PM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Gonna stick with the "this is shit" assessment.
posted by ShutterBun at 7:05 PM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Brilliant! Needs more not-terribly-subtle racism to really capture the tone you're reaching for, though.

Not every single criticism directed at a minority is due to racism, even on Metafilter. Your favorite artist sucks; deal with it.
posted by ShutterBun at 7:20 PM on August 2, 2013


Maybe it needs more "not terribly subtle racism" to match the tone *you* want, because there is none in the comment.

Seriously though, that was shitty.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 8:31 PM on August 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


This is the first real encounter I've had with her music and imagery. On first viewing, I loved the visuals. On second viewing, the visuals got really distracting -- the music sounded much more interesting and raw when I wasn't paying attention to the visual glitter.
posted by treepour at 10:06 PM on August 2, 2013


Maybe it needs more "not terribly subtle racism" to match the tone *you* want, because there is none in the comment.

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting Seekerofsplendour's comment was racist in any way. I was suggesting that his comment was so utterly ridiculous, and such a stereotypical 'get off my lawn' outburst, that it only needed a bit of racism added to make it a 'perfect' ridiculous comment, of the sort we all enjoy on the letters page of the local newspaper, or the Daily Mail's website. I suppose I also meant to suggest that the comment was so silly that it looked like the sort of comment a person silly enough to be a racist would make.

Reading my comment back it totally look like I'm flat out calling Seekerofsplendour racist, though - 'more' should be 'some', for one thing - which is indeed shitty.

Sorry Seekerofsplendour - I don't think your comment was racist, and didn't mean to imply that it was.
posted by jack_mo at 12:40 AM on August 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


I like this and all, but the comparison to Throbbing Gristle seems like a complete non-sequitur at best, to me. And that people in this thread are calling it heavy, well, clearly we're not working from the same definitions. To me, heavy generally means slow and ponderous, not fast and bitey - doom metal is heavy, black metal is not. This song? Not heavy. Not even a little.
posted by Dysk at 12:43 AM on August 3, 2013


"Stupid Hoe"s visuals are pretty mind-blowing, especially for their psychological portrayals of rictuses and splayed joints. So mesmerizing, I didn't quite catch the track.

I read a few dozen comments and checked the Grammy performance. That performance, its composition and thematics, are fabulous.

I read a bunch more hate-the-sound, there's-nothing-here, not-as-good-as-the-pioneers-to-whom-she's-compared, and I-stoppped-listening-to-new-music-after-I-turned-37 critiques before I decided to play "Stupid Hoe" without watching the visual.

That shit is fucking amazing.

A lot of you don't hear what I'm hearing and, for your sakes, I hope someome will come along with the time and patience to explain.

That person is not me (right now). I'm going to listen to the track a few more times.
posted by mistersquid at 12:55 AM on August 3, 2013 [4 favorites]


so simultaneously in the machine AND the machine and FUCKING the machine with her cartoonish inventions and deconstructionist sound

In a word: Metamodernism

It's a real thing, look it up.
posted by tarpin at 1:06 AM on August 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


There are few more glaring instances of the sexism ingrained in today's society than the fact that Kanye West is hailed as a genius and Nicki Minaj is dismissed as pap and pablum.

I mean, she's not my favorite thing in the entire world, but I have loved that video since the day it hit the Internet, and I've had to listen to many, many annoying kids (on Reddit and elsewhere) whine about how it's dumb when they clearly aren't even listening.
posted by koeselitz at 1:12 AM on August 3, 2013 [4 favorites]


mistersquid: "I read a bunch more hate-the-sound, there's-nothing-here, not-as-good-as-the-pioneers-to-whom-she's-compared, and I-stoppped-listening-to-new-music-after-I-turned-37 critiques before I decided to play "Stupid Hoe" without watching the visual."

The statement of More hardcore than Throbbing Gristle... was calculated to Get People Talking, so mission accomplished! It's a nice enough song for what it is, though.
posted by vanar sena at 1:18 AM on August 3, 2013


(And not to be weird but how is it so many of you haven't seen this yet? Was it the name of the song that made you click away before watching until now? Yeah, I can see that. Still... what a freaking thing it is. Even just the song itself - from the moment when she has to stop to gasp a breath near the beginning to the sung refrain near the end right before she loses it and goes off the rails - it's just awesome.)
posted by koeselitz at 1:19 AM on August 3, 2013


This is fucking great. Thanks for posting it.
posted by professor plum with a rope at 3:10 AM on August 3, 2013


I was totally expecting this to be a link to some other Swing Kids

Me too!

Their parents didn't like it either. Too Black.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:19 AM on August 3, 2013


Anyway, watching this helped me get a better hand on the Minaj phenomenon than the stuff I've seen before, so thanks for that!
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:19 AM on August 3, 2013


A lot of you don't hear what I'm hearing and, for your sakes, I hope someome will come along with the time and patience to explain.

We're hearing what you're hearing, we just don't like it.
posted by ShutterBun at 1:20 PM on August 3, 2013


I would like to dismiss Kanye too.
posted by jeffamaphone at 4:03 PM on August 3, 2013


A lot of you don't hear what I'm hearing and, for your sakes, I hope someome will come along with the time and patience to explain.

That person is not me (right now).


Thank god you have the time and patience to be incredibly patronizing, though.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 4:48 PM on August 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


Seriously though, I don't think anyone (in the article or thread) has yet actually articulated in detail what makes this song amazing/'extreme'/noteworthy. The closest we get is that she's "simultaneously in the machine AND the machine and FUCKING the machine with her cartoonish inventions and deconstructionist sound" and that sounds great but I'm not quite sure what it means - it's as opaque a statement as what we get in the article. A lot of that talk was thrown around with Gaga too but seems like she's not interesting for people anymore. Maybe the shock value of artists working within the mainstream and doing things seemingly-not-of-the-mainstream ultimately has a shelf life unless there's something more substantial to keep our attention.
posted by naju at 4:58 PM on August 3, 2013


Oh, and calling this track "heavy" reminds me of when my friend called Coldplay's Viva la Vida "epic".

Yeah...no.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 5:58 PM on August 3, 2013


Steely-eyed Missile Man, the patronizing tone is meant only for the people who can hear it.

You're very welcome.
posted by mistersquid at 7:35 PM on August 3, 2013


Sounds immature , flamboyant, juvenile and ugly. Where is the music? This is the disposable, garbage "music" they will refer to as the bubblegum of its time, in the future. Style over substance, as usual. Embarrassing.
posted by Seekerofsplendor at 12:03 PM on August 2 [1 favorite +] [!]


Don't you get tired of shitting in rap threads?
posted by tantrumthecat at 7:47 PM on August 3, 2013


Just to throw a small point out there (and only this because I am not trained as an ethnomusicologist and do not have the vocabulary to describe the technical details of what I'm hearing. My reluctance with this Minaj track resembles my reluctance to explain why Coltrane's "Love Supreme" is amazing. I don't think any amount of exposition is going to give you the ability to hear what's obvious to many of us): listen to the air raid siren.

The first two times it plays (in close sequence) it builds up a sense of drama and urgency, appropriate for the genre of diss. The next time the siren plays it's slowed down and cut short in thematic harmony with the lyrics which express bemusement and scorn. The siren comes back several times throughout the song and each time it is insistent and amplifies the effect of the lyrics, even as the "drama" gets changed up.

But to be honest, naju and Steely-eyed Missile Man, I'm guessing that explanation is lost on you. Not because you're bad people or because I'm smug and patronizing but because you just don't get the track and my powers of musical exposition are not very strong.

You feeling condescended to doesn't necessarily mean that I'm being condescending (I certainly don't think I'm trying to be so). I just don't have the patience and knowledgeability that might bring the music closer to you.
posted by mistersquid at 7:47 PM on August 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


And that people in this thread are calling it heavy, well, clearly we're not working from the same definitions.

Oh, and calling this track "heavy" reminds me of when my friend called Coldplay's Viva la Vida "epic".


Minor point of information, has anyone in this thread actually called "Stupid Hoe" heavy? Ctrl+F suggests not.
posted by DaDaDaDave at 8:18 PM on August 3, 2013


has anyone in this thread actually called "Stupid Hoe" heavy?

Hmm, you know, maybe not. I think the idea that it was got rolling with the whole "industrial" thing in the original article and sort of snowballed among the song's detractors from there, but no, it doesn't seem like anyone really did.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:34 PM on August 3, 2013


(And not to be weird but how is it so many of you haven't seen this yet?

I tend to avoid listening to the radio or subjecting my senses to video clip shows, so the only time I see stuff like this, and I remember it, is on a post like this. I doubt I'm alone in living in a pop cultural bubble.

And then I wish I hadn't. I remain puzzled about why adults like it, but I remain confused by the Postal Service and Big Freeda.

Each to their own, of course.

I'm not sure why the video is getting such praise. It seems pretty stock-standard to me, but with more neon than Rubella Ballet.

At least she spelt "hoe" correctly. Or is it 'ho?
posted by Mezentian at 8:35 PM on August 3, 2013


Well, thanks so much for dropping in and telling us that this is beneath you. Really helpful.
posted by chrchr at 10:41 PM on August 3, 2013


me: "And not to be weird but how is it so many of you haven't seen this yet?"

Mezentian: "I tend to avoid listening to the radio or subjecting my senses to video clip shows, so the only time I see stuff like this, and I remember it, is on a post like this. I doubt I'm alone in living in a pop cultural bubble... I'm not sure why the video is getting such praise. It seems pretty stock-standard to me, but with more neon than Rubella Ballet."

So let me get this straight. You think this video is "pretty stock-standard," but admit you're "living in a pop culture bubble." Might it be that your lack of knowledge of pop music prevents you from knowing what is stock and what is standard?

I'm pretty sure I know what's going on here. Let me tell you what I think you're doing:

You, like many people, tune out pop music. Particularly the hip-hop-ish pop music. And I don't blame you. Much of it is awful, much of it is sexist. Songs about "hoes," full of bravado and sexism and awful sexed-up videos. So you hear this and say: "huh, another song about hoes. Whatever." But what you're missing is that that's the point of it - the whole point is that it's ridiculous and over the top and silly. And it's insanely fun that way. It's fun. It is not required to have some grand intellectual point. It's co-opting that hoe crap and converting it into female bravado. And also the music is hilarious and highly entertaining. Weird Al could not ever do a parody of "Stupid Hoe" - it's already too audacious and ridiculous and insane, there's nowhere he could go with it.

And what's more, in this one song Nicki Minaj displays more vocal range than anyone else in music today. She's mugging, she's sneering, she's hollering, she's singing sweetly, she's doing childish sing-songs, she's rapping edgily and very rapidly, she's losing it and letting her voice fall apart and disintegrate - all of it. There's like years and years of hard work and practice and inventiveness and creativity and honed skill there. And all of it is brought to bear in the service of conveying the message that you are a stupid hoe. Yes, you. Me too. We're all stupid hoes except Nicki.

Do people not see how hilarious that is?

I don't know. Could be that I'm wrong. All that I ask of those who say this song is "stock-standard" is that they point to the stock they mean - link me to some other songs that this is derivative of, a few of the apparently legion songs that are supposedly exactly the same as this. Please - just a few songs. Because if there are songs like this out there, I want to hear them.
posted by koeselitz at 12:20 AM on August 4, 2013 [8 favorites]


Yes! That's the passionate defense of this song that I'm looking for.
posted by naju at 12:30 AM on August 4, 2013


Do people not see how hilarious that is?

In watching the video and listening to the song I missed all of that subtext.
posted by Mezentian at 4:05 AM on August 4, 2013


I don't know. Could be that I'm wrong.

We have a bingo. Hold your cards, please.

I don't hear anything substantially different than, say, Missy Elliot's Get Your Freak On, which has been a shitty song for at least 10 years now.
posted by ShutterBun at 5:06 AM on August 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well, thanks so much for dropping in and telling us that this is beneath you. Really helpful.

Responding to an FPP which is little more than an opinion piece on a pop song with a contrary opinion is not exactly uncalled for.

I'm sure when Brian Eno burst into the studio and proclaimed that Donna Summer's "I Feel Love" represented "the future of music," there were a couple of people who managed to claim otherwise without being brushed off as party poopers.
posted by ShutterBun at 5:26 AM on August 4, 2013


I don't hear anything substantially different than, say, Missy Elliot's Get Your Freak On, which has been a shitty song for at least 10 years now.

Huh. To me, "Stupid Hoe" and "Get Ur Freak On" sound "substantially different" in their beat, tempo, lyrical content and delivery, structure, tone, mood...just generally very, very different. They're about as similar as Surgeon's Girl and Supernaut.
posted by DaDaDaDave at 6:15 AM on August 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Fair enough. Though apparently I may not be the only one to see room for comparison.
Spin magazine says
"It's about time Missy's had some good news to share. And it's been far too long since the world has received a gem like "Get Ur Freak On" — and no, "Stupid Hoe" does not count."

Granted, they are saying "Stupid Hoe" isn't a fair comparison, but it's at least telling that that song was specifically mentioned.
posted by ShutterBun at 7:11 AM on August 4, 2013


a lot of commentary i've read about the video is that nicki is "ripping off" a bunch of artists, from grace jones, to beyonce, to gaga, to shakira - without seemingly realizing that her and hype were doing an homage thing. here's my stab at explaining it -

so, to start with you have to know that lil kim and nicki minaj have/had a big ole feud going on - this was pretty much the kill shot, i think. so - a lot of the specifics in the song are to lil kim who accused nicki of jacking her style/persona/etc. to me, with all the grace jones imagery (and then also mixing that with the other current female stars who have taken on grace jones in one way or another - the nods to gaga, beyonce, shakira, etc) she's saying to all her haters, but specifically kim - "you didn't invent it and you don't own it. i know the history of how i got here better than you do."

the song is brutal and cutting and a sonic assault. for everyone saying it's super mainstream or whatever, it might help you to know that this wasn't popular at all. it was ripped apart immediately - i, like some others, think it's because it was pretty far out there. no everyone is going to want to listen to an air raid siren. i do though, so i'm super glad she recorded it.
posted by nadawi at 7:15 AM on August 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


for those just finding minaj, might i suggest her verse in "monster" (which is actually sort of the same theme as this song - that her place is set and it doesn't matter the haters say because she's raking it in). every time monster comes up on my playlist i'm amazed that kanye was strong enough to let someone come on his own track and show him up so hard - and i say this as a big kanye fan - but there's just no beating nicki on that track.
posted by nadawi at 7:20 AM on August 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm really struggling to see the musical comparison between Get Ur Freak On and Stupid Hoe. I mean, I can understand the comparison between Missy Elliott and Nicki Minaj, in that they're both extremely talented female rappers who work with very out there producers, but musically and sonically the two songs have just about nothing in common. I mean, to begin with Stupid Hoe is a baltimore club banger, while Get Ur Freak On is built on a bhangra beat.

Am I missing something obvious?
posted by Kattullus at 7:25 AM on August 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


i think i can see that to someone who doesn't listen to a lot of hip hop how the two tracks are similar - that same sort of repetition in the loop of the higher notes and the breaks here and there - but you're right - they really aren't similar at all. i love both songs, but besides being fronted by women (and being awesome songs), they don't have a lot in common.

i think the same thing happens in any genre - especially much derided genres - the idea that it all sounds the same. like, when someone plays a studio nashville country song and says it sounds just like a bluegrass inspired texas band, my reaction is "you don't listen to a lot of this genre, do you?" which is fine - not everyone is going to dig down into the nitty gritty (dirt band) - but i personally try not to make comparisons between musical acts in genres i know little about, especially if i'm just piping up to say "this sucks just like this other thing sucked."
posted by nadawi at 7:36 AM on August 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm not saying the songs sound exactly alike, I'm suggesting that there's perhaps nothing substantially new or groundbreaking about "Stupid Hoe" vs. Missy Elliot's previous efforts.

I'm certainly willing to play Person A in this exchange:

A: This sounds a lot like So-and-so.

B: Some people have said that, yeah, but it's really not alike at all.

A: How so?
posted by ShutterBun at 7:48 AM on August 4, 2013


They're saying that the songs are only superficially similar in the way that, for instance, two hard rock songs with a similar pounding beat and screaming guitars sound similar. Still, Van Halen is obviously not Guns'n'Roses, or bringing the same message to the same audience, even if my grandpa might not have heard much of a difference. It doesn't really require elucidation.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:53 AM on August 4, 2013


It's co-opting that hoe crap and converting it into female bravado

The trees in this forest are that Nicki has had a long standing feud with Lil Kim and "Stupid Hoe" is a response to this Lil Kim song. The text of "Stupid Hoe" is that you, Lil Kim, are a stupid hoe. It's not some kind of female empowerment anthem.
That you find something else in it demonstrates that sexist art can have transcendent qualities.
posted by chrchr at 8:01 AM on August 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Still, Van Halen is obviously not Guns'n'Roses, or bringing the same message to the same audience

I'd wager that plenty of informed minds have at least seen room for comparison between the two though, no?
posted by ShutterBun at 8:32 AM on August 4, 2013


yes, but if we were talking about welcome to the jungle and someone said i don't hear anything substantially different than, say, van halen's runnin' with the devil, which has been a shitty song for at least 10 years now. then people who are fans of that style of music would probably think that person didn't know much about either band.
posted by nadawi at 8:40 AM on August 4, 2013


Precisely. Or to take another genre (that I don't listen to but am aware of) today's "black metal" (more melodic than the term suggests) and 90s Metallica.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:41 AM on August 4, 2013


Would you at least be willing to concede that it sounds a bit like "Donk" by Soulja Boy?
posted by ShutterBun at 9:16 AM on August 4, 2013


Because that song also has a beat?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:31 AM on August 4, 2013


This quite likely says more about my frame of reference than about the music, but oddly enough it reminded me of what some dudes were making on Amigas in the 90s.
posted by vanar sena at 9:43 AM on August 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


1. This song is fantastic.
2. This song is idiotic.
3. I'm not sure if the idiotic parts bolster the the brilliant/repetitive structure or hamper it, resulting in another song that's perfect for the club or a mixtape, bit not something I'm ever going to revisit on its own
4. There's nothing I'm getting from this that I'm not getting from more underground artists like Zebra Katz, Le1f, or Nicky Da B, other than a different tempo and a fun video.
5. This song sounds nothing like Le1f, Zebra Katz, or Nicky Da B, but I am catching some similarities in the context/subtext/vibe.
6. The exact thing I just said, but in regards to thos song's spiritual relationship to Missy Elliot and Busta Rhymes.
7. I don't think the mainstream is out-arting the underground, b. I do think that in a world with dramatically reduced record sales, the road is a lot shorter from the underground to the mainstrean.
8. By that totokenwe now live in a more single-oriented musical landscape than ever before. Mainstream artists live and die by digital downloads, placement in commercials and movies, and ringtone sales (WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP would make a great-and-occasionally terrifying alarm sound). So long as Nicki Minaj and Lady Gaga crank out a handful of Radio Disney anthem and look good on magazine covers,, they can go on as many weird flights of fancy as they please.
posted by elr at 10:42 PM on August 5, 2013


In summary, there is a fine line between "this is shit" and "this is the shit."
posted by ShutterBun at 10:51 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


« Older Thatcher was Wrong   |   Keep Spinning Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments