an overly-rendered red boot stamping on the reader's disinterested face
August 7, 2013 2:15 PM Subscribe
"With two years' hindsight, it is more and more apparent that the true shift signified by the advent of the Nu52 was that individual characters no longer matter (to say nothing of creators). The most important brand is not Superman or Batman or Green Lantern and certainly not Shazam or John Constantine, but DC Comics - oops, sorry, DC Entertainment. The most important thing for them is that they have a cohesive universe that can be presented as a legible whole. The great triumphs of superhero comics have traditionally come as a result of the genre's strange, disreputable, tatterdemalion profligacy. But it's becoming harder and harder for companies to justify extending that kind of creative freedom in regards to characters who might each and every one of them (in the minds of Warner Brothers executives) end up as their next billion-dollar franchise. The cruel irony is that without being able to offer that kind of freedom and trust to individual creators, the stories become sterile and vapid, and the IP is degraded. Marvel for the time being have managed to figure out how to walk the tightrope between control and liberty, enough so that a not-insignificant percentage of their line is actually very good, and many more books are pleasantly readable. There just aren't that many DC books I'd stop to pick up for free off the street. " -- Tim O'Neil reviews DC Comics' latest crossover, original sin and why the NuDC is so anemic.
Anemic, and yet covered in blood from head to toe.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:19 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:19 PM on August 7, 2013
For an article about comics it sure was a wall of tiny text.
posted by mrnutty at 2:25 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by mrnutty at 2:25 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
So I should have spent the summer I spent doing this being a lickspittle or maybe a toady of some ilk is what you're saying?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:44 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:44 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
If I'm honest with myself there's not a single comic I look forward to reading any more each month, and I've derided the New 52 enough and my position remains, but Collider looks pretty good and Deathmatch (yeah, the Paul Jenkins at BOOM! Studios Deathmatch) is better than anything DC has published for the last three years, with the exception of the Marshal Law omnibus, which isn't even theirs.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:46 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:46 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't think DC's cosmology holds together any worse than Marvel's. The FF's been to Heaven and Hell, too.
Not buying monthlies, I didn't really notice, but, yeah, the New 52 collections I want to get to can be summed up with two names: Paul Cornell and Grant Morrison. The Marvel collections are a long list...
posted by Zed at 2:50 PM on August 7, 2013
Not buying monthlies, I didn't really notice, but, yeah, the New 52 collections I want to get to can be summed up with two names: Paul Cornell and Grant Morrison. The Marvel collections are a long list...
posted by Zed at 2:50 PM on August 7, 2013
Also, fun blog, thanks for the link!
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:50 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:50 PM on August 7, 2013
Paul Cornell and Grant Morrison
Both on their way out.
At least Morrison got to give his Batman run a good ending. Good enough.
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on August 7, 2013
Both on their way out.
At least Morrison got to give his Batman run a good ending. Good enough.
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on August 7, 2013
the other two being the Phantom Stranger and the Question. The former has been completely revamped, given a confirmed origin as Judas Iscariot, and given a secret identity, a human family, and a talking dog sidekick; the latter has been revamped into a mysterious amnesiac ancient evildoer forced to live forever, walking the earth in search of the question (get it?) that will reveal his identity.
What the mother fuckety-fuck
posted by COBRA! at 2:54 PM on August 7, 2013 [19 favorites]
What the mother fuckety-fuck
posted by COBRA! at 2:54 PM on August 7, 2013 [19 favorites]
The plot begins when Pandora discovers that if a truly good soul reopens Pandora's Box, then the evils that were once trapped in the box will be reimprisoned once again. Like most sane people she assumes Superman to be genuinely good, but of course since this is the Nu52 he's not, so instead of opening the box and solving all evil it instead fucks with his head enough that he murders Doctor Light by blowing his head off with heat vision.
Double what the mother fuckety-fuck
posted by COBRA! at 2:55 PM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
Double what the mother fuckety-fuck
posted by COBRA! at 2:55 PM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
The whole business with Pandora dies indeed sound like a big old plate of bullshit, yup.
posted by Artw at 2:57 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by Artw at 2:57 PM on August 7, 2013
I knew there was a reason that I have never been tempted to pick up any issue of any 52 title....
There's always Hellboy or King City or some other creator-driven story to read.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:57 PM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
There's always Hellboy or King City or some other creator-driven story to read.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:57 PM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
"tatterdemalion profligacy"
Mind. Blown.
posted by Thistledown at 2:58 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Mind. Blown.
posted by Thistledown at 2:58 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hellboy and BPRD have both been pretty awful lately (which is a shame).
Artw, don't forget Morrison's Wonder Woman graphic novel! (if he's still doing it, I dunno)
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:59 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Artw, don't forget Morrison's Wonder Woman graphic novel! (if he's still doing it, I dunno)
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:59 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
He is! There's even preview art! It's nuts, I know.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:00 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:00 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Fair point, it's a one-off though. And god knows what is happening with Multiversity. For now it's pretty much certain we won't be seeing any more multi-year runs by him on DC titles.
posted by Artw at 3:03 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by Artw at 3:03 PM on August 7, 2013
Meanwhile, they're standing by Orson Scott Card's story for Superman after all.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:08 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:08 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, the pic at the top of the link, where I guess Shazam (?) has pulled the head off the lava minotaur God of War boss dude, yet the lava minotaur boss dude lying on the ground still has a head, what's that about?
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:10 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:10 PM on August 7, 2013
I keep easing into the comic DCverses and they keep restarting the universe and kicking me out to start over, so by this point the real question I care about: is this new52 stuff going to besmirch the various DC animated & adaptation series, which tend to be paradoxically better AND more relaxed with continuity anyway?
Apparently my precious low-low-fantasy Arrow is being opened to the superpowered/magical set to facilitate crossover spinoffs, which given Phantom Stranger's talking dog now makes me really nervous.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:13 PM on August 7, 2013
Apparently my precious low-low-fantasy Arrow is being opened to the superpowered/magical set to facilitate crossover spinoffs, which given Phantom Stranger's talking dog now makes me really nervous.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:13 PM on August 7, 2013
Also, the pic at the top of the link, where I guess Shazam (?) has pulled the head off the lava minotaur God of War boss dude, yet the lava minotaur boss dude lying on the ground still has a head, what's that about?
That's from part of the "Trinity War" crossover where John Constantine steals Captain Marvel/Shazam's powers in the stupidest way possible, and then kills a minotaur that's there because 22 pages is a lot of space to fill, I guess.
Having read the entire piece, and getting beyond the "Geoff Johns has become an incredibly dour and depressing writer" bit, I've had similar thoughts about how Hawkeye, for instance, just could not exist in the current DC because it doesn't fit the style and anything that doesn't fit the New 52 style gets ignored and then killed. Their best titles have all been really good stories that still happen to be Serious Works Of Punchy Fiction, like Batman and Wonder Woman. The most "fun" title that got a fair shake was Demon Knights, and even that still looked just like every other book.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:15 PM on August 7, 2013
That's from part of the "Trinity War" crossover where John Constantine steals Captain Marvel/Shazam's powers in the stupidest way possible, and then kills a minotaur that's there because 22 pages is a lot of space to fill, I guess.
Having read the entire piece, and getting beyond the "Geoff Johns has become an incredibly dour and depressing writer" bit, I've had similar thoughts about how Hawkeye, for instance, just could not exist in the current DC because it doesn't fit the style and anything that doesn't fit the New 52 style gets ignored and then killed. Their best titles have all been really good stories that still happen to be Serious Works Of Punchy Fiction, like Batman and Wonder Woman. The most "fun" title that got a fair shake was Demon Knights, and even that still looked just like every other book.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:15 PM on August 7, 2013
DC is canceling Legion of Super Heroes. It, and Aquaman, were really the only comic books I was still reading. (Okay, Sergio Aragiones Comics and Stories,too) After approximately 23 years, I have stopped ordering comics monthly from Westfield comics. I have apparently gotten too old for the comics DC is currently publishing, and I have always been a DC guy. I would rather purchase hardcover editions of classic comics.
posted by wittgenstein at 3:17 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by wittgenstein at 3:17 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
That's from part of the "Trinity War" crossover where John Constantine steals Captain Marvel/Shazam's powers in the stupidest way possible, and then kills a minotaur that's there because 22 pages is a lot of space to fill, I guess.
Oh that's right I forgot Constantine is a DC character now. Actually my chief concern was why the lava minotaur still had a head, like an extra random head. Anyway. Man, if Alan Moore was dead, he'd be spinning beneath his tumulus.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:23 PM on August 7, 2013
Oh that's right I forgot Constantine is a DC character now. Actually my chief concern was why the lava minotaur still had a head, like an extra random head. Anyway. Man, if Alan Moore was dead, he'd be spinning beneath his tumulus.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:23 PM on August 7, 2013
There's lots to like in the new 52. Scott Snyder's Batman has been as good as any non-Morrison Batman in the last 20 years. Batman & Robin has also been a joy, at least up until Morrison decided to kill off Damian. Azzarello's Wonder Woman is excellent. Manapul & Buccatello have been doing solid work on the Flash. Lemire's Animal Man is great, and his recent relaunch of Green Arrow is much appreciated. DC also took a lot of creative risks with things like China Mieville's Dial H, which readers just didn't pick up.
There've been lots of missteps, and no doubt a heavy editorial hand has been harmful. I wish Teen Titans was more like Marvel's Young Avengers, and Fraction & Aja's Hawkeye is one of the best comics runs I've ever read. So, DC editorial should definitely take a chill pill and let creators play a little more freely.
Overall, though, the exaggerated claims that they aren't publishing anything worth reading are ridiculous and frankly tiresome.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 3:25 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
There've been lots of missteps, and no doubt a heavy editorial hand has been harmful. I wish Teen Titans was more like Marvel's Young Avengers, and Fraction & Aja's Hawkeye is one of the best comics runs I've ever read. So, DC editorial should definitely take a chill pill and let creators play a little more freely.
Overall, though, the exaggerated claims that they aren't publishing anything worth reading are ridiculous and frankly tiresome.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 3:25 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
From a recent NY Times bio on Karen Berger:
Dan DiDio, the co-publisher of DC Comics, said there was “some truth” to these feelings of a shifting landscape, which he said were industrywide. For comics published by Vertigo and by DC, he said: “There’s not a challenge to be more profitable out of the gate. But there is a challenge to be more accepted out of the gate.”
Mr. DiDio said it would be “myopic” to believe “that servicing a very small slice of our audience is the way to go ahead.”
“That’s not what we’re in the business for,” he added. “We have to shoot for the stars with whatever we’re doing. Because what we’re trying to do is reach the biggest audience and be as successful as possible.”
posted by Artw at 3:29 PM on August 7, 2013
Dan DiDio, the co-publisher of DC Comics, said there was “some truth” to these feelings of a shifting landscape, which he said were industrywide. For comics published by Vertigo and by DC, he said: “There’s not a challenge to be more profitable out of the gate. But there is a challenge to be more accepted out of the gate.”
Mr. DiDio said it would be “myopic” to believe “that servicing a very small slice of our audience is the way to go ahead.”
“That’s not what we’re in the business for,” he added. “We have to shoot for the stars with whatever we’re doing. Because what we’re trying to do is reach the biggest audience and be as successful as possible.”
posted by Artw at 3:29 PM on August 7, 2013
John Constantine.... Captain Marvel...
what the fuck did i just read
posted by dogheart at 3:32 PM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
what the fuck did i just read
posted by dogheart at 3:32 PM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
the other two being the Phantom Stranger and the Question. The former has been completely revamped, given a confirmed origin as Judas Iscariot, and given a secret identity, a human family, and a talking dog sidekick; the latter has been revamped into a mysterious amnesiac ancient evildoer forced to live forever, walking the earth in search of the question (get it?) that will reveal his identity.
Man, who doesn't love the Tangent Universe?
Um.
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:40 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Man, who doesn't love the Tangent Universe?
Um.
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:40 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
What's ironic about DiDio's comments on Vertigo is that Vertigo's right now publishing not only DC's best title, but probably the best monthly title currently coming out,* and also one I can very easily see adapted into a giant blockbuster film of the sort we're talking about when we talk about being successful.
(*Though clearly Amazon reviewers disagree!)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:24 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
(*Though clearly Amazon reviewers disagree!)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:24 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I generally agree with the analysis from the linked article, although there were some odd books I read from the initial Nu52 that were definitely different. There were some terrible parts to it, but "Voodoo" was definitely different from other mainstream superhero books. I have the Didio/Giffen "Omac" that I picked up cheap in TPB form - it was somewhat unique, although it was also way too slavishly devoted to Kirby (not that Kirby isn't awesome, but I don't think Kirby himself would have so blatantly copied his own idols). I liked the two new Legion books, although I did not realize that the Levitz Legion was being cancelled soon.
I think part of the shock for someone like this writer is that the core DC characters are really being messed with, particularly Superman and Wonder Woman.
I thought Azzarello's Wonder Woman was okay. Certainly the art was neat. But I still prefer Rucka's and Simone's Wonder Woman. I also prefer Busiek's or Byrne's or Morrison's (All-Star) Superman. Really, after All-Star Superman, it was going to be hard for anyone to do that character... I am a pretty big fan of the Wally West Flash, but really I am kinda glad that DC has retired him for now. I don't really need to read, or even just know, that DC has killed Linda and the kids or whatever ultra-violence they have decided to dish out.
My recommendation for a fun, action-oriented, complex, but again, FUN, comic is somewhat off the traditional map - it's Transformers : More than Meets the Eye from IDW.
posted by Slothrop at 4:26 PM on August 7, 2013
I think part of the shock for someone like this writer is that the core DC characters are really being messed with, particularly Superman and Wonder Woman.
I thought Azzarello's Wonder Woman was okay. Certainly the art was neat. But I still prefer Rucka's and Simone's Wonder Woman. I also prefer Busiek's or Byrne's or Morrison's (All-Star) Superman. Really, after All-Star Superman, it was going to be hard for anyone to do that character... I am a pretty big fan of the Wally West Flash, but really I am kinda glad that DC has retired him for now. I don't really need to read, or even just know, that DC has killed Linda and the kids or whatever ultra-violence they have decided to dish out.
My recommendation for a fun, action-oriented, complex, but again, FUN, comic is somewhat off the traditional map - it's Transformers : More than Meets the Eye from IDW.
posted by Slothrop at 4:26 PM on August 7, 2013
not only DC's best title, but probably the best monthly title currently coming out,*
I don't know if I'd go that far, but it's pretty damn good.
Some of the "Defy" stuff looks like it might pull Vertigo out of it's spin as well.
posted by Artw at 4:28 PM on August 7, 2013
I don't know if I'd go that far, but it's pretty damn good.
Some of the "Defy" stuff looks like it might pull Vertigo out of it's spin as well.
posted by Artw at 4:28 PM on August 7, 2013
Yeah, The Wake is pretty good. I was hoping for something a lot creepier, but it's still pretty good, and it's nice to see it has a predetermined finite run of 10 issues. I'm also looking forward to Trillium, for some reason. Vertigo still gets a pass, despite being little more than the Fables channel the same way Discovery is the shark channel and History the Hitler channel.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:45 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:45 PM on August 7, 2013
the other two being the Phantom Stranger and the Question. The former has been completely revamped, given a confirmed origin as Judas Iscariot, and given a secret identity, a human family, and a talking dog sidekick; the latter has been revamped into a mysterious amnesiac ancient evildoer forced to live forever, walking the earth in search of the question (get it?) that will reveal his identity.
What the mother fuckety-fuck
The funny thing is I would totally read a book about Phantom Stranger and his talking dog sidekick. They list it like it's one of the turn offs but that's the only thing that sounds good about the entire idea.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:50 PM on August 7, 2013
What the mother fuckety-fuck
The funny thing is I would totally read a book about Phantom Stranger and his talking dog sidekick. They list it like it's one of the turn offs but that's the only thing that sounds good about the entire idea.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:50 PM on August 7, 2013
I have the issue of Unwritten where it crosses over with Fables, yet somehow cannot bring myself to read the thing - they may have derailed my interest in it permentantly.
posted by Artw at 4:54 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by Artw at 4:54 PM on August 7, 2013
The Hellblazer!
See, I sort of think that if Alan Moore was actually a wizard, whoever was responsible for that would, like, come down with some sort of terrible wasting disease of the genitalia.
though i almost want to see the actual comic book now for the sheer what-the-blistering-fuck factor
posted by dogheart at 5:01 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
See, I sort of think that if Alan Moore was actually a wizard, whoever was responsible for that would, like, come down with some sort of terrible wasting disease of the genitalia.
though i almost want to see the actual comic book now for the sheer what-the-blistering-fuck factor
posted by dogheart at 5:01 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Grant Morrison actually did a parody comic where John Constantine was The Hellblazer, spoke in Clarenont English and had a costume... The genital wasting curse would just be part of the ongoing wizard-war between them.
posted by Artw at 5:03 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 5:03 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Man, after reading Supergods that doesn't surprise me one bit. I like quite a bit of their work, but those two are just so far up themselves it's unreal.
I really want to see them duke it out in a Gandalf vs. Saruman style wizard cage match for the Comic Book Writer Magician Championship. With staffs. Warren Ellis can referee.
posted by dogheart at 6:25 PM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
I really want to see them duke it out in a Gandalf vs. Saruman style wizard cage match for the Comic Book Writer Magician Championship. With staffs. Warren Ellis can referee.
posted by dogheart at 6:25 PM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
"We publish comics for 45-year-olds."
This is so true. I actually have a 45-year-old friend with a tattoo of Mon-El.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:35 PM on August 7, 2013
This is so true. I actually have a 45-year-old friend with a tattoo of Mon-El.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:35 PM on August 7, 2013
not only DC's best title, but probably the best monthly title currently coming out,*
I want to challenge that statement but neither Prophet nor Hawkeye seem to be monthly in anything but name.
posted by griphus at 7:14 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I want to challenge that statement but neither Prophet nor Hawkeye seem to be monthly in anything but name.
posted by griphus at 7:14 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I like checking in occasionally with a local comic shop owner about how the reboot has worked for his store. I asked him a month ago if the massive increase in DC comics sales he saw with the reboot has continued. He said yes. Most of the dozens and dozens of new subscribers the reboot brought to his store have stayed subscribers, and DC sales are still significantly above what they were pre-reboot. I get that sales don't equal quality but "ensuring the consistency of a recognizable house style across almost every book they publish" seems to be a financially successful move (at least for now). Might be interesting to ask your own local comic shop owner if the same's true where you are.
posted by mediareport at 7:23 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by mediareport at 7:23 PM on August 7, 2013
Grant Morrison actually did a parody comic where John Constantine was The Hellblazer, spoke in Clarenont English and had a costume... The genital wasting curse would just be part of the ongoing wizard-war between them.
That was a Doom Patrol in which a number of characters on the fringes of the universe got Silver Age makeovers - I guess it might have been some sort of majickkkal assault, but if so it was a pretty useless one, since The Hero Known As Hellblazer was both non-canonical and fun.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:42 PM on August 7, 2013
That was a Doom Patrol in which a number of characters on the fringes of the universe got Silver Age makeovers - I guess it might have been some sort of majickkkal assault, but if so it was a pretty useless one, since The Hero Known As Hellblazer was both non-canonical and fun.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:42 PM on August 7, 2013
I can believe that sales are up for DC from where they were pre-reboot, but I really have a hard time swallowing the idea that they're going for a broad audience. Everything I've read goes back to the 45 year-old dude being their ideal customer, and that everyone else can suck it (or read Marvel and Image and atomic robo, because atomic robo is awesome). DC's lineup seems pretty bland, but it's also bland in exactly the same way.
I can't help but wonder if DC's sales would have been higher if they'd been willing to have more diversity in their lineup - not just of characters and creators, but of tone.
Anyway, I'm still duitifully reading the Movement, kind of, and like Wonder Woman as long as I shut my eyes and forget that this character is supposed to be Wonder Woman and ignore a lot of Azzarello's comments in interviews. I want to give more of DC a chance, because they have a lot of IP I'm fond of, but they aren't really doing anything interesting with it.
Meanwhile, a year later and I'm still trying to figure out why exactly I'm so invested in Clint Barton of all people (Kate Bishop makes sense. Because she's Kate Bishop, and therefore more awesome than you).
posted by dinty_moore at 7:50 PM on August 7, 2013
I can't help but wonder if DC's sales would have been higher if they'd been willing to have more diversity in their lineup - not just of characters and creators, but of tone.
Anyway, I'm still duitifully reading the Movement, kind of, and like Wonder Woman as long as I shut my eyes and forget that this character is supposed to be Wonder Woman and ignore a lot of Azzarello's comments in interviews. I want to give more of DC a chance, because they have a lot of IP I'm fond of, but they aren't really doing anything interesting with it.
Meanwhile, a year later and I'm still trying to figure out why exactly I'm so invested in Clint Barton of all people (Kate Bishop makes sense. Because she's Kate Bishop, and therefore more awesome than you).
posted by dinty_moore at 7:50 PM on August 7, 2013
Meanwhile, a year later and I'm still trying to figure out why exactly I'm so invested in Clint Barton of all people (Kate Bishop makes sense. Because she's Kate Bishop, and therefore more awesome than you).
Because Clint Barton was Kate Bishop before Kate Bishop was Kate Bishop. There's a reason Kate became the second Hawkeye.
posted by mightygodking at 8:59 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Because Clint Barton was Kate Bishop before Kate Bishop was Kate Bishop. There's a reason Kate became the second Hawkeye.
posted by mightygodking at 8:59 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes. Clint was the guy who thought, "hmmm, the Avengers have a friggin thunder god, a mechanical genius who can invent armour that can make him go toe to toe with said thunder god, another genius who can make himself into a giant, but they're stilling something. I know, I'll become really really good at shooting arrows, that's what they need."
posted by MartinWisse at 9:37 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by MartinWisse at 9:37 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I really liked this essay, as it helped crystallized the main thing that I've seen, or rather smelled, coming off of DC throughout the whole of Nu52: the stench of desperation. It's not just the trashing of continuity that's problematic (I really don't care so much about that any more), but the killing of good books, the shoddy handling of creators whose names aren't Johns, Lee or Morrison, the impossibly short time frames that many books had to make arbitrary sales figures or be cancelled, the absurd fanservice that was trotted out by some books to make those sales figures in the early issues (followed by the entreaties of trufans after the initial fanservice period was past to give the books a try), and now this thing, where, as O'Neil points out, it makes sense for Constantine to borrow Shazam's powers because they're not really that different as characters any more, when they should be as polar opposite as it's possible to be and still be more or less on the same side, even more so than Superman and Batman.
It's not that Marvel doesn't have its own serious flaws--aside from the never-ending crossover cycle, they're putting out some wretched thing called Avengers Arena that's as shameless a superhero ripoff of The Hunger Games as it's possible to make--but it's particularly dispiriting to see someone like Gail Simone having to work on a de-paralyzed Barbara Gordon Batgirl when she'd done such good things with Oracle. On the other hand, I'm saving lots of time and money not making the weekly round trip to my comics shop, so there's that.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:53 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's not that Marvel doesn't have its own serious flaws--aside from the never-ending crossover cycle, they're putting out some wretched thing called Avengers Arena that's as shameless a superhero ripoff of The Hunger Games as it's possible to make--but it's particularly dispiriting to see someone like Gail Simone having to work on a de-paralyzed Barbara Gordon Batgirl when she'd done such good things with Oracle. On the other hand, I'm saving lots of time and money not making the weekly round trip to my comics shop, so there's that.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:53 PM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
So today I was in my local comic shop. As is usual, I'd buzzed straight past the rack of Marvel and DC stuff to go pick up stuff from the more genre-diverse racks in the back.
On my way out I noticed they'd recently brought some long boxes up from the basement. Everything in 'em was a quarter. I started browsing. And near the end, I struck gold. i found something called "Gammarauders". From 1989, it's something from DC based on a crazy boardgame from TSR. It's this weird mix of third-hand anime stylings, standard American comics of the 80s, and… insanity. Everything is in bright neon colors (as it's after comics discovered nice paper, but before they discovered Photoshop). It's some kind of crazy post-apocalyptic world where people mind-meld with these giant cybered-up animals to fight battles. A tank kangaroo, an orange-and-pink dinosaur, a death hamster, a teleporting turtle, a weaponized bear… it's just incredibly garish and really doesn't take itself at all seriously. It is gloriously dense and stupid, and reading it made me feel like an eight-year-old kid. In a good way. I'm in my forties and I can't even begin to care about the "continuity" of a fictional universe. I just want eyeball kicks.
I miss the days when DC printed stuff like this on a regular basis.
posted by egypturnash at 10:27 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
On my way out I noticed they'd recently brought some long boxes up from the basement. Everything in 'em was a quarter. I started browsing. And near the end, I struck gold. i found something called "Gammarauders". From 1989, it's something from DC based on a crazy boardgame from TSR. It's this weird mix of third-hand anime stylings, standard American comics of the 80s, and… insanity. Everything is in bright neon colors (as it's after comics discovered nice paper, but before they discovered Photoshop). It's some kind of crazy post-apocalyptic world where people mind-meld with these giant cybered-up animals to fight battles. A tank kangaroo, an orange-and-pink dinosaur, a death hamster, a teleporting turtle, a weaponized bear… it's just incredibly garish and really doesn't take itself at all seriously. It is gloriously dense and stupid, and reading it made me feel like an eight-year-old kid. In a good way. I'm in my forties and I can't even begin to care about the "continuity" of a fictional universe. I just want eyeball kicks.
I miss the days when DC printed stuff like this on a regular basis.
posted by egypturnash at 10:27 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
. Everything I've read goes back to the 45 year-old dude being their ideal customer,
I guess I'm their core audience then ( b. Jan. 1967 ), and FWIW I gave up on DC entirely after about a dozen issues of new-52... Man, I really liked Countdown. I just didn't realize what it was a countdown to.
Saucer Country wasn't too bad, I guess they killed that fast, eh?
posted by mikelieman at 4:42 AM on August 8, 2013
I guess I'm their core audience then ( b. Jan. 1967 ), and FWIW I gave up on DC entirely after about a dozen issues of new-52... Man, I really liked Countdown. I just didn't realize what it was a countdown to.
Saucer Country wasn't too bad, I guess they killed that fast, eh?
posted by mikelieman at 4:42 AM on August 8, 2013
Saucer Country is a discontinued UFO mythology comic book series written by Paul Cornell and drawn by Ryan Kelly, published by Vertigo in 2012 and 2013.
Ayup...
posted by mikelieman at 4:43 AM on August 8, 2013
Ayup...
posted by mikelieman at 4:43 AM on August 8, 2013
I tried a few nu52 books when it first happened. Animal Man and Swamp Thing were the ones I heard the most about. I read a few issues of each and quickly realized DC's best couldn't match the books I was already reading from Image and Dark Horse. Haven't looked back!
It's like... is there really anything left to say about the nu52? Can we move from the negative dialogue hitting the same points about how shitty it is over and over and talk about good comics instead?
I'll start, and I'll keep myself to just three.
It's like... is there really anything left to say about the nu52? Can we move from the negative dialogue hitting the same points about how shitty it is over and over and talk about good comics instead?
I'll start, and I'll keep myself to just three.
- Catalyst Comix for your superhero fix. Joe Casey and three awesome, relatively unknown artists rotating through 3 different stories.
- Gamma one-shot from Ulises Farinas, one of the artists on Catalyst. It's a black-humor Pokemon and I really hope people buy it so he gets to make more.
- Michel Fiffe's Copra. Okay, another superhero book. But his storytelling and art obliterate the "house style," quality feels awesome (thick paper, great print quality) and you can buy it right from the creator.
Everything I've read goes back to the 45 year-old dude being their ideal customer
That doesn't really square with the reboot, though. It's bringing new, younger customers into comic book stores, looking for DC product. Again, ask your own local comic shop owner about post-reboot DC sales. I'd be curious to see their responses.
I'm not defending the quality of the stuff DC's putting out post-reboot; by most accounts it's pretty bad stuff. It just seems to be working to get new readers.
posted by mediareport at 6:44 AM on August 8, 2013
That doesn't really square with the reboot, though. It's bringing new, younger customers into comic book stores, looking for DC product. Again, ask your own local comic shop owner about post-reboot DC sales. I'd be curious to see their responses.
I'm not defending the quality of the stuff DC's putting out post-reboot; by most accounts it's pretty bad stuff. It just seems to be working to get new readers.
posted by mediareport at 6:44 AM on August 8, 2013
(my point is that if DC really cared *most* about 45-year-old customers they wouldn't have thrown out decades of continuity and gone for a total revamp of their most iconic characters.)
posted by mediareport at 6:45 AM on August 8, 2013
posted by mediareport at 6:45 AM on August 8, 2013
Clint was the guy who thought ...I'll become really really good at shooting arrows, that's what they need.
Nuh-uh! He was already really really good at shooting arrows as a carny trick-shooter! And then he fell in love with the Black Widow who talked him into helping her steal Tony Stark's technology! But he was really sorry about it! And then Thor and Iron Man and Giant-Man and the Wasp all quit the Avengers, so Captain America signed up Hawkeye and two former members of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants!
See, it all makes perfect sense the way it really happened!
posted by Zed at 9:52 AM on August 8, 2013
Nuh-uh! He was already really really good at shooting arrows as a carny trick-shooter! And then he fell in love with the Black Widow who talked him into helping her steal Tony Stark's technology! But he was really sorry about it! And then Thor and Iron Man and Giant-Man and the Wasp all quit the Avengers, so Captain America signed up Hawkeye and two former members of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants!
See, it all makes perfect sense the way it really happened!
posted by Zed at 9:52 AM on August 8, 2013
Bryan Cranston may possibly be up for Lex Luthor in Batman/Superman
posted by homunculus at 1:12 PM on August 8, 2013
posted by homunculus at 1:12 PM on August 8, 2013
Frank Miller may be consulting on Batman vs. Superman
Meanwhile, they're standing by Orson Scott Card's story for Superman after all.
"Hope he goes after the homos next."
posted by homunculus at 1:21 PM on August 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, they're standing by Orson Scott Card's story for Superman after all.
"Hope he goes after the homos next."
posted by homunculus at 1:21 PM on August 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Good comics, eh? Well, of the stuff I picked up yesterday, I read the last issue of Luther Strode and the latest Daredevil in bed last night, as well as the new book Sidekick. All good.
Last couple of weeks was Prophet, Thor, Deathmatch, Hawkeye, Sheltered and uhhh...something else. Oh yeah! The X-Files and Suicide Risk. Those are all varying levels of good.
Still in my pile is a whole mess of stuff, like Satellite Sam and Trillium and Collider and the new The Wake and Ten Grand and whatever else. I'll get to 'em eventually.
Recently dropped Miniature Jesus and Uber and X and Mister X. Tried some terrible John Carpenter comic as well as something called Ghosted which was pretty awful. Dropped Bedlam. Will probably drop Sex next because that's just a big heap of going-nowhere.
Anyway, yeah, there's always good stuff, but my default answer is, if you're in a comic shop with some cash to burn and can't find anything you like, pick up a 2000AD omnibus, particularly anything that's got the names Wagner or Grant or Mills or Gibbons or Milligan or O'Neill on it (which, yeah, is most of 'em) and you're rarely going wrong.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:02 PM on August 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Last couple of weeks was Prophet, Thor, Deathmatch, Hawkeye, Sheltered and uhhh...something else. Oh yeah! The X-Files and Suicide Risk. Those are all varying levels of good.
Still in my pile is a whole mess of stuff, like Satellite Sam and Trillium and Collider and the new The Wake and Ten Grand and whatever else. I'll get to 'em eventually.
Recently dropped Miniature Jesus and Uber and X and Mister X. Tried some terrible John Carpenter comic as well as something called Ghosted which was pretty awful. Dropped Bedlam. Will probably drop Sex next because that's just a big heap of going-nowhere.
Anyway, yeah, there's always good stuff, but my default answer is, if you're in a comic shop with some cash to burn and can't find anything you like, pick up a 2000AD omnibus, particularly anything that's got the names Wagner or Grant or Mills or Gibbons or Milligan or O'Neill on it (which, yeah, is most of 'em) and you're rarely going wrong.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:02 PM on August 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah and speaking of Miller, looks like he's got a new Robocop comic out. I flicked through it, it looked pretty awful.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:04 PM on August 8, 2013
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:04 PM on August 8, 2013
I'm not defending the quality of the stuff DC's putting out post-reboot; by most accounts it's pretty bad stuff. It just seems to be working to get new readers.
So the 45 year-old male was just based of ArtW's comment earlier - it does seem like they are just going for the same demographic that was considered the target comics audience before, but trying to appeal to new readers in that demographic. The thing I find confusing about that is that there are lots of comics readers outside of that demographic, looking to buy something that's not in their house style, and no matter what, we're told we don't buy comics. It's weird. It's an old hat by now, we've all heard this before, but nothing seems to change. I'm just not worth their time.
(I'd ask my local comic book shop about this, but I haven't been in my local comic book shop since free comic book day - buying comics on my phone on my way home from work is much easier, and I can catch up on runs from five years ago just as easily as I can get what's new this week. Most of the newer comics readers I know are the same - I know for me, one of the huge stumbling blocks in me reading mainstream comics for years was the format and the storage thereof, and my superhero-focused LCS being kind of an ass to me in the past when I went in looking to buy trades. The indie-focused LCS did not give me guff)
The whole idea of having a house style across the board as the way to get a large market share, when you have as many different products as DC has, seems confusing to me. The reason why you have a house style is to create a dependable product, but nobody is going to buy all everything that DC releases, and you're automatically excluding everyone who doesn't like that house style. DC is large enough to support a YA subimprint, or keep supporting vertigo as its own experimental thing
Reboots are going to get some new readers, no matter what. Publicity, no confusing backstories, a promise of a fresh start. I just can't help but wonder if they would have gotten more if they'd targeted a wider audience.
Anyway, good comics: Atomic Robo's kickstarter has less than 24 hours left, and the stretch goals have gotten kind of crazy.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:07 PM on August 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
So the 45 year-old male was just based of ArtW's comment earlier - it does seem like they are just going for the same demographic that was considered the target comics audience before, but trying to appeal to new readers in that demographic. The thing I find confusing about that is that there are lots of comics readers outside of that demographic, looking to buy something that's not in their house style, and no matter what, we're told we don't buy comics. It's weird. It's an old hat by now, we've all heard this before, but nothing seems to change. I'm just not worth their time.
(I'd ask my local comic book shop about this, but I haven't been in my local comic book shop since free comic book day - buying comics on my phone on my way home from work is much easier, and I can catch up on runs from five years ago just as easily as I can get what's new this week. Most of the newer comics readers I know are the same - I know for me, one of the huge stumbling blocks in me reading mainstream comics for years was the format and the storage thereof, and my superhero-focused LCS being kind of an ass to me in the past when I went in looking to buy trades. The indie-focused LCS did not give me guff)
The whole idea of having a house style across the board as the way to get a large market share, when you have as many different products as DC has, seems confusing to me. The reason why you have a house style is to create a dependable product, but nobody is going to buy all everything that DC releases, and you're automatically excluding everyone who doesn't like that house style. DC is large enough to support a YA subimprint, or keep supporting vertigo as its own experimental thing
Reboots are going to get some new readers, no matter what. Publicity, no confusing backstories, a promise of a fresh start. I just can't help but wonder if they would have gotten more if they'd targeted a wider audience.
Anyway, good comics: Atomic Robo's kickstarter has less than 24 hours left, and the stretch goals have gotten kind of crazy.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:07 PM on August 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
(Incidentally, I know this is the worst possible response, but I can't shake the feeling that the reader being stamped on is uninterested rather than disinterested...)
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:32 AM on August 9, 2013
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:32 AM on August 9, 2013
egypturnash: I thought that Gammarauders sounded familiar, and checking out your link, I realize why: it was written by Peter B. Gillis, one of the great underappreciated comics writers of the 80s. (I also wonder if the "Dave Cooper" also listed on the cover is this one; it's likely, and I've been a fan of his later work for some time.)
dinty_moore: it does seem like they are just going for the same demographic that was considered the target comics audience before, but trying to appeal to new readers in that demographic.
I don't think that they're even necessarily getting new readers in the demographic; I think that they're selling more books to the same readers.
The thing I find confusing about that is that there are lots of comics readers outside of that demographic, looking to buy something that's not in their house style, and no matter what, we're told we don't buy comics. It's weird. It's an old hat by now, we've all heard this before, but nothing seems to change. I'm just not worth their time.
I think that DC basically had a choice at one point, to either appeal to the stereotypical fanboy solely or to try to recruit new readers from other demographics, and to their credit DC did try: they did try to appeal to teenage girls, they had comics that were aimed at younger kids, there was Vertigo, etc. And either they didn't sell enough or they just got tired of trying to build up an audience in that demographic, which might have taken some time, or the jumped-up fanboys in their management managed to convince their corporate highers-up that they should concentrate on their "core business".
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:57 PM on August 9, 2013
dinty_moore: it does seem like they are just going for the same demographic that was considered the target comics audience before, but trying to appeal to new readers in that demographic.
I don't think that they're even necessarily getting new readers in the demographic; I think that they're selling more books to the same readers.
The thing I find confusing about that is that there are lots of comics readers outside of that demographic, looking to buy something that's not in their house style, and no matter what, we're told we don't buy comics. It's weird. It's an old hat by now, we've all heard this before, but nothing seems to change. I'm just not worth their time.
I think that DC basically had a choice at one point, to either appeal to the stereotypical fanboy solely or to try to recruit new readers from other demographics, and to their credit DC did try: they did try to appeal to teenage girls, they had comics that were aimed at younger kids, there was Vertigo, etc. And either they didn't sell enough or they just got tired of trying to build up an audience in that demographic, which might have taken some time, or the jumped-up fanboys in their management managed to convince their corporate highers-up that they should concentrate on their "core business".
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:57 PM on August 9, 2013
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posted by Artw at 2:18 PM on August 7, 2013