Feral cat wranglers vs. Trapper John
October 3, 2013 10:31 AM Subscribe
On the mean streets of Chicago, it's feral cat colonists versus Trapper John, the rogue former Animal Control worker.
"They can vilify me all they want," Norton said. "Great souls have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds."
You know who else encounters opposition from mediocre minds, Trapper John? Fucking wackadoos. Not everyone who works in a patent office is Einstein, either.
I will bet cash money that this guy has said "Correlation is not causality!" like it ended the argument at least once in his life.
posted by Etrigan at 10:40 AM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
You know who else encounters opposition from mediocre minds, Trapper John? Fucking wackadoos. Not everyone who works in a patent office is Einstein, either.
I will bet cash money that this guy has said "Correlation is not causality!" like it ended the argument at least once in his life.
posted by Etrigan at 10:40 AM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
I predict Trapper John's secret identity will be revealed to be Jonathan Franzen.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:40 AM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:40 AM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
But Norton doesn’t believe Cook County's claims and doubts the program keeps stray animals safe, he said. As far as he's seen, the stray cat population is just as robust as it always has been, he said.
This dude should probably take a look at data from somewhere like Staten Island, which had feral cat populations explode after Hurricane Sandy put a stop to TNR efforts for a few months. TNR works by preventing new kitten litters which keeps the population stable until the older cats die off. You don't see a drop in the overall number, you see a lack of increase.
posted by elizardbits at 10:42 AM on October 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
This dude should probably take a look at data from somewhere like Staten Island, which had feral cat populations explode after Hurricane Sandy put a stop to TNR efforts for a few months. TNR works by preventing new kitten litters which keeps the population stable until the older cats die off. You don't see a drop in the overall number, you see a lack of increase.
posted by elizardbits at 10:42 AM on October 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
Whatever this guy is doing is a lot better than that rogue Hawkeye Pierce who tried to clear out all those pigeon nests.
posted by griphus at 10:42 AM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by griphus at 10:42 AM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
The dude sounds obsessive and self-righteous all the way through.
posted by me3dia at 10:42 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by me3dia at 10:42 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe if this guy wasn't kidnapping all the feral cats out of Uptown, we wouldn't have farmers coming to steal our pigeons with a giant net.
posted by Wulfhere at 10:47 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Wulfhere at 10:47 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
You don't see a drop in the overall number, you see a lack of increase.
So why are they claiming a 30% reduction? Disease or starvation maybe?
Fucking wackadoos.
What suggests he's a whack-o? A couple of out of context quotes in a potentially inflamitory article about a contraversial subject do not neccisarily make someone a nut case.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 10:50 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
So why are they claiming a 30% reduction? Disease or starvation maybe?
Fucking wackadoos.
What suggests he's a whack-o? A couple of out of context quotes in a potentially inflamitory article about a contraversial subject do not neccisarily make someone a nut case.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 10:50 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
That's a 30% decrease over 5 years, which seems pretty reasonable considering the uncertain lives of feral cats in a big city. Natural deaths from age, untreated diseases, accidents w/vehicles, etc.
posted by elizardbits at 10:57 AM on October 3, 2013
posted by elizardbits at 10:57 AM on October 3, 2013
Fucking wackadoos.
What suggests he's a whack-o? A couple of out of context quotes in a potentially inflamitory article about a contraversial subject do not neccisarily make someone a nut case.
They don't make him a "great mind," either. I'm perfectly willing to accept that he's somewhere in the middle, but his logical skills are poor.
posted by Etrigan at 10:58 AM on October 3, 2013
What suggests he's a whack-o? A couple of out of context quotes in a potentially inflamitory article about a contraversial subject do not neccisarily make someone a nut case.
They don't make him a "great mind," either. I'm perfectly willing to accept that he's somewhere in the middle, but his logical skills are poor.
posted by Etrigan at 10:58 AM on October 3, 2013
Norton started visiting the projects regularly to trap cats. Residents called him "the cat man," he said.
I AM THE NIGHT
posted by modernserf at 11:06 AM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
I AM THE NIGHT
posted by modernserf at 11:06 AM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Sounds to me like he's a bit of a minor smart ass that got quoted in order to make him look more cavalier than he probably is in reality and fan the flame bait in the article in order push more linkage.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 11:07 AM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 11:07 AM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
The city has an animal control group, a stated policy allowing cat colonies, and a public consensus on this. This guy, rather than work within the system, is just grabbing cats and taking them away. So yes, he is kind of a crank.
posted by mikeh at 11:22 AM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by mikeh at 11:22 AM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
Yeah a bit cranky but he did work within the system, for years.
posted by agregoli at 11:23 AM on October 3, 2013
posted by agregoli at 11:23 AM on October 3, 2013
Good for him.
No, NOT good for him! He's defying the law, and undermining the city's official (and humane) policy with respect to feral cats. As someone who helps care for feral cats, I'm appalled!
posted by crazy_yeti at 11:25 AM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
No, NOT good for him! He's defying the law, and undermining the city's official (and humane) policy with respect to feral cats. As someone who helps care for feral cats, I'm appalled!
posted by crazy_yeti at 11:25 AM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
This guy, rather than work within the system
That's the American way. Unless you can afford a lobbyist, because in that case you are the system.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:27 AM on October 3, 2013
That's the American way. Unless you can afford a lobbyist, because in that case you are the system.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:27 AM on October 3, 2013
How is he defying the law? They said what he is doing is legal.
posted by agregoli at 11:39 AM on October 3, 2013
posted by agregoli at 11:39 AM on October 3, 2013
Also I fail to see what's inhumane about turning feral cats over to humane shelters?
posted by agregoli at 11:39 AM on October 3, 2013
posted by agregoli at 11:39 AM on October 3, 2013
Feral cats are a plague. That they can be cute doesn't change how awful they are.
posted by Justinian at 11:43 AM on October 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:43 AM on October 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
Personally, I'd prefer wholesale extermination. But whatever, his tactic, the city's tactics, isn't the goal the same. The end of feral cats forever? It can't come soon enough.
posted by IvoShandor at 11:44 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by IvoShandor at 11:44 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Granted, all my experience has been in small towns and cities rather than someplace like inner-city Chicago, so for all I know it's apples and pomegranates. But I've seen TNR work miracles, and have been very proud to have helped in my own small way.
And unless he was quoted so far out of context that they literally cut the words "Only a person with delusions of grandeur would say something like," from in front of "Great souls have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds," then yeah, I'm comfortable filing this guy under "whacko" and cross-referencing him with "crank."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:53 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
And unless he was quoted so far out of context that they literally cut the words "Only a person with delusions of grandeur would say something like," from in front of "Great souls have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds," then yeah, I'm comfortable filing this guy under "whacko" and cross-referencing him with "crank."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:53 AM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Cats eat ducklings. This man is a hero!
posted by Renegade Duck at 12:09 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Renegade Duck at 12:09 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
The city has an animal control group, a stated policy allowing cat colonies, and a public consensus on this. This guy, rather than work within the system, is just grabbing cats and taking them away. So yes, he is kind of a crank.
I'm not sure that a privately funded organization's implemented policy is the same as "public concensus", in fact the article cites public dissent over the policy and the concensus only being that everyone wants to get rid of strays. The county's public animal control agency actually weighed in against TNR. Trapper John here appears to be delivering the cats to public shelters that are not no-kill TNR facilities against the wishes of the private groups supporting the colonies. In fact, such private groups may be the ones violating animal control laws as releasing animals into the wild without a permit is often against state and local ordinances, but this is often overlooked in the case of cat TNR.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 12:27 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure that a privately funded organization's implemented policy is the same as "public concensus", in fact the article cites public dissent over the policy and the concensus only being that everyone wants to get rid of strays. The county's public animal control agency actually weighed in against TNR. Trapper John here appears to be delivering the cats to public shelters that are not no-kill TNR facilities against the wishes of the private groups supporting the colonies. In fact, such private groups may be the ones violating animal control laws as releasing animals into the wild without a permit is often against state and local ordinances, but this is often overlooked in the case of cat TNR.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 12:27 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
As for the fate of the cats he catches, Norton said: "I don’t do the euthanizing."
This guy's heart seems to be in the right place, even if his logic is fucked: when you give them to the killers, you are an accomplice to their deaths. You might as well own it. The sad truth is that cat colonies are terrible things, for several reasons: local birds, for one thing, and the general well-being of the cats, for another.
Anyhow, he's not entirely full of shit. I am a cat-trapper, too. I live on the edge of town. I trap them, take them to the vet, who sterilizes them, gives them some vaccinations, a flea bath of one sort or another, a vitamin shot. Then I bring them back home and turn them loose. They don't last all that long in the wild: a couple or maybe three years.
We had more than fifty feral cats in our neighborhood when I started doing this. I discovered about twenty-five of them under my porch, or living under our potting shed. Nowadays there may be one or two in the whole neighborhood. Six of that bunch have become our pets. One of those is still shit-house wild, but he lives in my yard and hangs with the other five guys. Four of these are indoor-outdoor laprats, and one of them is my little face-muff, who likes to find where I'm sleeping, lay across my head and purr.
It took about six months of daily trapping to get the colony handled. Spaying or neutering cats works to help control the feral population. In our case, other wild critters who inhabit the edge of our small town (coyotes, bobcats and so on), plus attrition by autos, seem to keep the population under control. By under control, I mean that no cat colonies are visible in the neighborhood. Every now and then I see an unknown cat prowling the hillside, but for all I know he may be a local pet out having a cat adventure.
I don't know that trapping and releasing (the way I do it) would work in a large urban environment, but I don't see why not. I can understand the argument for euthanizing feral cats. I'm glad enough to not have to deal with it that way here.
About them ducks: until they learn to purr they can take their chances like the other critters. Also, I agree with the sentiment expresses in another thread: finches are overrated.
posted by mule98J at 12:34 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
This guy's heart seems to be in the right place, even if his logic is fucked: when you give them to the killers, you are an accomplice to their deaths. You might as well own it. The sad truth is that cat colonies are terrible things, for several reasons: local birds, for one thing, and the general well-being of the cats, for another.
Anyhow, he's not entirely full of shit. I am a cat-trapper, too. I live on the edge of town. I trap them, take them to the vet, who sterilizes them, gives them some vaccinations, a flea bath of one sort or another, a vitamin shot. Then I bring them back home and turn them loose. They don't last all that long in the wild: a couple or maybe three years.
We had more than fifty feral cats in our neighborhood when I started doing this. I discovered about twenty-five of them under my porch, or living under our potting shed. Nowadays there may be one or two in the whole neighborhood. Six of that bunch have become our pets. One of those is still shit-house wild, but he lives in my yard and hangs with the other five guys. Four of these are indoor-outdoor laprats, and one of them is my little face-muff, who likes to find where I'm sleeping, lay across my head and purr.
It took about six months of daily trapping to get the colony handled. Spaying or neutering cats works to help control the feral population. In our case, other wild critters who inhabit the edge of our small town (coyotes, bobcats and so on), plus attrition by autos, seem to keep the population under control. By under control, I mean that no cat colonies are visible in the neighborhood. Every now and then I see an unknown cat prowling the hillside, but for all I know he may be a local pet out having a cat adventure.
I don't know that trapping and releasing (the way I do it) would work in a large urban environment, but I don't see why not. I can understand the argument for euthanizing feral cats. I'm glad enough to not have to deal with it that way here.
About them ducks: until they learn to purr they can take their chances like the other critters. Also, I agree with the sentiment expresses in another thread: finches are overrated.
posted by mule98J at 12:34 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
He isn't signing a death warrant by giving them to professionals who can better assess their health and adoptability than he can. And most feral cats can't be tamed anyway. I would rather a quick death for them than the horrors of their lives outside. As you say, they don't last long. I wonder at the expense of treating and neutering and spaying them only to return them to the streets. If the focus was actually intense round-up and eradication of ferals (something I am positive Chicago is not doing aggressively), who knows what could be accomplished.
I love cats, and I hate seeing them suffering outside. Spay and neuter your pets, everyone!
posted by agregoli at 12:43 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
I love cats, and I hate seeing them suffering outside. Spay and neuter your pets, everyone!
posted by agregoli at 12:43 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
Finches at least can live in the wild without undue suffering. Cats cannot, and damage local wildlife populations on a huge scale. Whether people like cats or birds more is not really the issue, to me, when we're talking about local ecology.
posted by agregoli at 12:46 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by agregoli at 12:46 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
"Horrors of their lives outside"? Melodramatic, much? Like most wild animals, feral cats on average have short lifespans; that doesn't mean their lives are inevitably a horror while they have them. I am a fan of trap and release because it has a record of doing a good job of shrinking cat populations while not being cruel to the cats. Extermination programs -- and bringing feral cats to a kill shelter in Detroit is in fact extermination -- are both cruel and have a poor record of keeping feral cat populations permanently under control.
posted by tavella at 12:51 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 12:51 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Is it cruel because the method of euthanization is cruel or because you believe euthanization of feral cats is inherently cruel?
posted by Justinian at 12:53 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by Justinian at 12:53 PM on October 3, 2013
I'm with tavella: anything living in your house is going to have a better time of it because of your shelter and largesse. Nearly anything in the wild, including escaped finches is going to have higher incidents of disease, predation, starvation, etc. We've got a soft spot for cats and somehow walk this weird middle road with them that we wouldn't with any other invasive predator. It helps that they don't present (much) of a health threat to humans that they get off better than feral dogs and God help you if you are a feral rodent...
posted by Ogre Lawless at 1:03 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by Ogre Lawless at 1:03 PM on October 3, 2013
I'm not being melodramatic. Cats can live so long under human care, indoors. I have a friend who has a cat who just turned 21! When the lifespan of cats outside is abysmal, what quality of life do they really have? I'm not criticizing your efforts at alleviating suffering-it's great that you're helping your local situation. But the disease and miserable living (unstable food and water supplies, fights with other cats and animals, bad weather, injuries from cars, etc) combined with the fact that even neutered animals make huge dents in wild populations of animals...I don't see this man as a monster at all. It's a practical solution, and a kind one.
I wish the City of Chicago cared more about this issue but they do not. It's difficult to even trap cats yourself here, if you rent. I looked into it at my last apartment, where large numbers of feral cats lived behind the building and were fed raw chicken by local restaurants (which always worried me that it would make them sick, when it sat in the sun in the summer). None of those cats appeared healthy or happy. They were absolutely miserable looking in the winter. When I inquired about trapping, I wouldn't be allowed to place traps without the landlord's approval, and I'm sure the busboys would have removed them anyway. The city did nothing. I would much rather they had been rounded up and taken to shelters than watched them suffer day after day.
I want kind solutions for cats, and Chicago is failing at helping strays.
posted by agregoli at 1:13 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I wish the City of Chicago cared more about this issue but they do not. It's difficult to even trap cats yourself here, if you rent. I looked into it at my last apartment, where large numbers of feral cats lived behind the building and were fed raw chicken by local restaurants (which always worried me that it would make them sick, when it sat in the sun in the summer). None of those cats appeared healthy or happy. They were absolutely miserable looking in the winter. When I inquired about trapping, I wouldn't be allowed to place traps without the landlord's approval, and I'm sure the busboys would have removed them anyway. The city did nothing. I would much rather they had been rounded up and taken to shelters than watched them suffer day after day.
I want kind solutions for cats, and Chicago is failing at helping strays.
posted by agregoli at 1:13 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sorry I confused you tavella, with another poster.
I don't agree that we should accept shorter, more pain-filled lives for feral cats because wild populations have shorter lifespans. Humans created this problem and it should be fixed - there should be no feral cats, period. And the irony is that accepting feral cat populations as a given means sentencing many more animals, many that have a beneficial relationship to the area, to a premature death.
posted by agregoli at 1:17 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't agree that we should accept shorter, more pain-filled lives for feral cats because wild populations have shorter lifespans. Humans created this problem and it should be fixed - there should be no feral cats, period. And the irony is that accepting feral cat populations as a given means sentencing many more animals, many that have a beneficial relationship to the area, to a premature death.
posted by agregoli at 1:17 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I just last week adopted a 2 year old cat in Chicago from PAWS, a no kill shelter. She was picked up by animal control, fixed and treated for a respiratory infection and now she is on the couch next to me. Totally tame, sleek and stylish, incredibly chill and extremely well trained also currently nameless.
He could always take these animal to no-kill shelters.
Also feral cats keep Chicago's rat population in check. Just don't mess with my externally housed Lincoln Park bunnies though!
posted by srboisvert at 1:21 PM on October 3, 2013
He could always take these animal to no-kill shelters.
Also feral cats keep Chicago's rat population in check. Just don't mess with my externally housed Lincoln Park bunnies though!
posted by srboisvert at 1:21 PM on October 3, 2013
Feral cats are just furry asian carp for all the destruction they cause. It sure would be nice if the involved parties coordinated their efforts instead of working against each other. Or maybe they could introduce a population of coyotes to keep the cat population under control. But then you'd just have to TNR the coyotes...
posted by ghostiger at 1:25 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by ghostiger at 1:25 PM on October 3, 2013
No-kill shelters could never handle the volume. And no-kill doesn't mean that exactly- if the animal is sick, it will likely be put down.
posted by agregoli at 1:26 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by agregoli at 1:26 PM on October 3, 2013
And no-kill doesn't mean that exactly- if the animal is sick, it will likely be put down.
That's better than "if the animal is surplus, it will likely be put down."
posted by Etrigan at 1:27 PM on October 3, 2013
That's better than "if the animal is surplus, it will likely be put down."
posted by Etrigan at 1:27 PM on October 3, 2013
See, Etrigan, I don't agree with that. Cats that could be adopted being killed is sad, but necessary. There aren't enough homes. I'd rather they be killed than left on the street.
posted by agregoli at 1:33 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by agregoli at 1:33 PM on October 3, 2013
And no-kill doesn't mean that exactly- if the animal is sick, it will likely be put down.
That's better than "if the animal is surplus, it will likely be put down."
See, Etrigan, I don't agree with that. Cats that could be adopted being killed is sad, but necessary. There aren't enough homes. I'd rather they be killed than left on the street.
Those aren't the only two choices. No-kill shelters give animals a better chance than traditional shelters.
posted by Etrigan at 1:55 PM on October 3, 2013
That's better than "if the animal is surplus, it will likely be put down."
See, Etrigan, I don't agree with that. Cats that could be adopted being killed is sad, but necessary. There aren't enough homes. I'd rather they be killed than left on the street.
Those aren't the only two choices. No-kill shelters give animals a better chance than traditional shelters.
posted by Etrigan at 1:55 PM on October 3, 2013
Someone needs to invent something that you can put in or on food that will sterilize the cats. Then people can feed the feral cats, they can become sterile, and the problem will go away. Humans have caused sterilization in enough animals accidentally through the use of chemicals. Can't we do it intentionally?
My wife and I feed the feral cats at our house. There are probably 15 or so of them that are somewhat regular. I would pay good money for such a product.
posted by flarbuse at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2013
My wife and I feed the feral cats at our house. There are probably 15 or so of them that are somewhat regular. I would pay good money for such a product.
posted by flarbuse at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2013
Why do you do that? They are kudzu with fur.
posted by Justinian at 2:23 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:23 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
People just can't get over themselves.
I am really curious how TNR is so great but extermination has a "poor" record. Don't both methods prevent them from breeding?
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 2:31 PM on October 3, 2013
I am really curious how TNR is so great but extermination has a "poor" record. Don't both methods prevent them from breeding?
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 2:31 PM on October 3, 2013
I would rather a quick death for them than the horrors of their lives outside.
But how do you know that their lives are "horrors"? There is a colony of feral cats down the street from me. They live in an abandoned garage, I look in on them from time to time, I thought maybe I could befriend them and adopt one. They are skittish around people (including me), and will never be tamed or adopted, but in the summers they spend a lot of time relaxing and sunning themselves on the roof of the garage. They've made it through a few rough winters. I really don't think their lives are worse than those of many wild animals. Should we round up all of those for a "quick death" too?
posted by crazy_yeti at 2:36 PM on October 3, 2013
But how do you know that their lives are "horrors"? There is a colony of feral cats down the street from me. They live in an abandoned garage, I look in on them from time to time, I thought maybe I could befriend them and adopt one. They are skittish around people (including me), and will never be tamed or adopted, but in the summers they spend a lot of time relaxing and sunning themselves on the roof of the garage. They've made it through a few rough winters. I really don't think their lives are worse than those of many wild animals. Should we round up all of those for a "quick death" too?
posted by crazy_yeti at 2:36 PM on October 3, 2013
We do, if they're an invasive species. Asian carp and the like.
posted by Justinian at 2:48 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by Justinian at 2:48 PM on October 3, 2013
Not really. We don't go around exterminating starlings or house sparrows, which are certainly invasive species in the US. Extermination programs are quite rare and limited either to trying to prevent the spread/foothold of new invasive species that are a specific danger to economically important crops and fisheries or island-based in the case of endangered species protection.
I'd be kind of curious to know what percentage of urban feral cat kills are actual native species, given that some of their most common victims are invasives or pests -- starlings, house sparrows, urban pigeon (rock dove), field mouse, rat. I have my doubts that they are a significant issue in regards to protected species, though suburban and rural ferals may well be.
posted by tavella at 3:09 PM on October 3, 2013
I'd be kind of curious to know what percentage of urban feral cat kills are actual native species, given that some of their most common victims are invasives or pests -- starlings, house sparrows, urban pigeon (rock dove), field mouse, rat. I have my doubts that they are a significant issue in regards to protected species, though suburban and rural ferals may well be.
posted by tavella at 3:09 PM on October 3, 2013
Starlings tend not to have well-meaning but misguided people "adopting" whole colonies and keeping them surviving well above the population the local environment would otherwise support.
People do feed pigeons, sure, but pigeons don't go around murdering lots of other animals.
posted by Justinian at 3:14 PM on October 3, 2013
People do feed pigeons, sure, but pigeons don't go around murdering lots of other animals.
posted by Justinian at 3:14 PM on October 3, 2013
Starlings tend not to have well-meaning but misguided people "adopting" whole colonies and keeping them surviving well above the population the local environment would otherwise support.
In fact, starlings have exactly that, since huge numbers of people put out bird feeders.
I don't think that they're all grubby starlings or what have you that are "ok" for them to be killing.
If you are upset about cats as invasives, then you also should be fine with them predating fellow invasives. You seem to be going off emotion rather than logic here; it's a *good* thing when cats kill the many invasives such as starlings, and the most common urban birds in the US are all introduced species. The question would be are there any substantial populations of native species in urban areas that cats are harming, or at least harming in a greater degree than they benefit from the removal of the invasive species that are competing with them for food and nesting locations.
posted by tavella at 3:31 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
In fact, starlings have exactly that, since huge numbers of people put out bird feeders.
I don't think that they're all grubby starlings or what have you that are "ok" for them to be killing.
If you are upset about cats as invasives, then you also should be fine with them predating fellow invasives. You seem to be going off emotion rather than logic here; it's a *good* thing when cats kill the many invasives such as starlings, and the most common urban birds in the US are all introduced species. The question would be are there any substantial populations of native species in urban areas that cats are harming, or at least harming in a greater degree than they benefit from the removal of the invasive species that are competing with them for food and nesting locations.
posted by tavella at 3:31 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
In fact, starlings have exactly that, since huge numbers of people put out bird feeders.
Come on, a bird feeder in the back yard is not the same thing as what people do for feral cat colonies and I think you know that. Secondly, as I said starlings don't go around murdering huge numbers of other small animals as a matter of course. Starlings are indeed technically invasive but they do not have significant impact on the populations of native birds.
posted by Justinian at 3:44 PM on October 3, 2013
Come on, a bird feeder in the back yard is not the same thing as what people do for feral cat colonies and I think you know that. Secondly, as I said starlings don't go around murdering huge numbers of other small animals as a matter of course. Starlings are indeed technically invasive but they do not have significant impact on the populations of native birds.
posted by Justinian at 3:44 PM on October 3, 2013
Why are people so invested in feral cats? Is it just a matter of AWWWWWWW KITTTTTTTTTTIIIIEEEESSSS?
posted by Justinian at 3:45 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by Justinian at 3:45 PM on October 3, 2013
You then added
I don't think that they're all grubby starlings or what have you that are "ok" for them to be killing.
sarcasm quotes in the original, and you also try to frame my position as being based on starlings being "grubby", when it's based on the simple fact that both cats and starlings are introduced species in the US, and therefore no one should have an issue with one predating the other. So I think 'cats kill X birds' is a fairly useless statistic; it's the question of *what* birds they kill. I'm all in favor of removing ferals from islands, via extermination if necessary, to protect native animal populations. And I simultaneously not convinced that trapping feral cat colonies in Detroit protects anything native, certainly not any better than well managed TNR programs.
I don't have any issue with coyotes predating feral cats, either, and I would think anyone who tried to exterminate coyotes to protect cats was nuts.
posted by tavella at 3:48 PM on October 3, 2013
I don't think that they're all grubby starlings or what have you that are "ok" for them to be killing.
sarcasm quotes in the original, and you also try to frame my position as being based on starlings being "grubby", when it's based on the simple fact that both cats and starlings are introduced species in the US, and therefore no one should have an issue with one predating the other. So I think 'cats kill X birds' is a fairly useless statistic; it's the question of *what* birds they kill. I'm all in favor of removing ferals from islands, via extermination if necessary, to protect native animal populations. And I simultaneously not convinced that trapping feral cat colonies in Detroit protects anything native, certainly not any better than well managed TNR programs.
I don't have any issue with coyotes predating feral cats, either, and I would think anyone who tried to exterminate coyotes to protect cats was nuts.
posted by tavella at 3:48 PM on October 3, 2013
He could always take these animal to no-kill shelters.
I had always sort of assumed that that would be an available option, until I had to try to find a shelter for a couple of adult, adorable, healthy, domestic cats in Minneapolis a couple of years ago. (I couldn't take them myself, or I would have!!)
There was indeed a no-kill shelter in town: not accepting new admissions. Ditto for everyplace else anywhere near. I got excited at one point, that I'd found a place something like 100 miles north of Duluth that would take them- it would have been a ~4 hour drive, but what the hell- but they ended up telling me they couldn't take non-local cats.
If you think about it it makes sense- you can be no-kill, or you can take in all the cats, but if your resources are finite, you have to pick one.
Don't worry! A friend ended up finding them a great home, they're fine!
posted by hap_hazard at 4:05 PM on October 3, 2013
I had always sort of assumed that that would be an available option, until I had to try to find a shelter for a couple of adult, adorable, healthy, domestic cats in Minneapolis a couple of years ago. (I couldn't take them myself, or I would have!!)
There was indeed a no-kill shelter in town: not accepting new admissions. Ditto for everyplace else anywhere near. I got excited at one point, that I'd found a place something like 100 miles north of Duluth that would take them- it would have been a ~4 hour drive, but what the hell- but they ended up telling me they couldn't take non-local cats.
If you think about it it makes sense- you can be no-kill, or you can take in all the cats, but if your resources are finite, you have to pick one.
Don't worry! A friend ended up finding them a great home, they're fine!
posted by hap_hazard at 4:05 PM on October 3, 2013
Come on, a bird feeder in the back yard is not the same thing as what people do for feral cat colonies and I think you know that.
Yes, bird feeders are actually worse, since they indiscriminately add to the population, favoring certain types of birds who are rarely natives. While a good TNR program makes it the highest priority to neuter that no new cats are born, and in fact can often intercept dumpees before they go too feral to be adopted easily, as opposed to indiscriminate trapping which will allow the more wary animals to go on putting out litter after litter of kittens. You seem to be conflating hoarder/feeder situations with managed colonies. I would agree that people who feed ferals without accompanying attempts to spay and neuter are doing the wrong thing.
Secondly, as I said starlings don't go around murdering huge numbers of other small animals as a matter of course. Starlings are indeed technically invasive but they do not have significant impact on the populations of native birds.
They compete with native birds for nesting sites and food; the impact varies, but to some species such as purple martins and eastern bluebirds it has been significant. And again, you are taking a strange emotional tone; a feral cat who eats a pigeon is no more "murdering" it than a peregrine falcon who does the same. The predation of invasives, in fact, is to be lauded.
posted by tavella at 4:09 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Yes, bird feeders are actually worse, since they indiscriminately add to the population, favoring certain types of birds who are rarely natives. While a good TNR program makes it the highest priority to neuter that no new cats are born, and in fact can often intercept dumpees before they go too feral to be adopted easily, as opposed to indiscriminate trapping which will allow the more wary animals to go on putting out litter after litter of kittens. You seem to be conflating hoarder/feeder situations with managed colonies. I would agree that people who feed ferals without accompanying attempts to spay and neuter are doing the wrong thing.
Secondly, as I said starlings don't go around murdering huge numbers of other small animals as a matter of course. Starlings are indeed technically invasive but they do not have significant impact on the populations of native birds.
They compete with native birds for nesting sites and food; the impact varies, but to some species such as purple martins and eastern bluebirds it has been significant. And again, you are taking a strange emotional tone; a feral cat who eats a pigeon is no more "murdering" it than a peregrine falcon who does the same. The predation of invasives, in fact, is to be lauded.
posted by tavella at 4:09 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
The eastern Bluebird is doing pretty well with their population growing over the last few decades; starlings did do a number on the purple martins, yes. If you're looking for me to agree that reducing the population of starlings would be a good thing then, sure, that would be a good thing. Go ahead and kill 'em.
posted by Justinian at 4:35 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by Justinian at 4:35 PM on October 3, 2013
Stuff like this makes me sad and angry all at once. As far as I am concerned, there needs to be a pet license introduced in every city in every state or territory in every country. Same as you have a driver's license. You get an "open" license only after being on your "provisional" license for 2 years, and you get your P's only after you have been a "learner" before that.
"Learners" need to have 100 hours built up over time, working in animal shelters or for humane societies. They cannot have an animal. Once they have those required 100 hours, they sit down to take a formal exam.
If they pass, they may be on their "provisional" license, which is where they may have up to two animals, but they must be adopted from a shelter, must be spayed or neutered, must be microchipped, and must be regularly vet-checked and their treatments kept up-to-date. This is all signed-off by a veterinarian, in a log book. Officials can ask to see this log book at any time, your records must be submitted online every month, and officials will also do spot-checks of the place where the animals are kept, to ensure that their standard of living is high (food, shelter, mental and physical stimulation). If you fail at any point your provisional license is revoked, and you go back to your L's. You get ONE chance. If you fail again on your P's, you can never have a pet license.
The open license means you can have as many pets as you want, local laws permitting, and they must still be desexed and microchipped and their vet treatment on schedule. You must pass a formal exam every five years and submit your logbook annually.
If at any point you fuck up severely, there is a significant fine and your license is permanently revoked. The proceeds of this fine go towards catch-and-neuter programs. In this specific example, even cats from feral colonies can be rehabilitated, if they are a year or younger. I know this because my girlfriend and I did it six times last year, and they all went to good homes.
Having an animal in your home is not a right, it is a responsibility the same as any other responsibility, and is in fact more important than most. This is a thinking, feeling creature, with sentience and the capacity to feel pain and joy and misery. It has a body that must be kept healthy, with medicine and good nutrition and exercise. It has a brain that must be stimulated, with play and with fellowship. It deserves safety and shelter as much as you do and as much as your children do.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:06 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Learners" need to have 100 hours built up over time, working in animal shelters or for humane societies. They cannot have an animal. Once they have those required 100 hours, they sit down to take a formal exam.
If they pass, they may be on their "provisional" license, which is where they may have up to two animals, but they must be adopted from a shelter, must be spayed or neutered, must be microchipped, and must be regularly vet-checked and their treatments kept up-to-date. This is all signed-off by a veterinarian, in a log book. Officials can ask to see this log book at any time, your records must be submitted online every month, and officials will also do spot-checks of the place where the animals are kept, to ensure that their standard of living is high (food, shelter, mental and physical stimulation). If you fail at any point your provisional license is revoked, and you go back to your L's. You get ONE chance. If you fail again on your P's, you can never have a pet license.
The open license means you can have as many pets as you want, local laws permitting, and they must still be desexed and microchipped and their vet treatment on schedule. You must pass a formal exam every five years and submit your logbook annually.
If at any point you fuck up severely, there is a significant fine and your license is permanently revoked. The proceeds of this fine go towards catch-and-neuter programs. In this specific example, even cats from feral colonies can be rehabilitated, if they are a year or younger. I know this because my girlfriend and I did it six times last year, and they all went to good homes.
Having an animal in your home is not a right, it is a responsibility the same as any other responsibility, and is in fact more important than most. This is a thinking, feeling creature, with sentience and the capacity to feel pain and joy and misery. It has a body that must be kept healthy, with medicine and good nutrition and exercise. It has a brain that must be stimulated, with play and with fellowship. It deserves safety and shelter as much as you do and as much as your children do.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:06 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
pigeons don't go around murdering lots of other animals.
are you sure about that
posted by elizardbits at 5:12 PM on October 3, 2013
are you sure about that
posted by elizardbits at 5:12 PM on October 3, 2013
Yes, bird feeders are actually worse, since they indiscriminately add to the population, favoring certain types of birds who are rarely natives.
While some people keep have sparrow/starling feeders full of cracked corn and milo (it's cheap), there are plenty of other options out there. Of course if you live somewhere where there are few native species to begin with (indiscriminate concrete) I suppose the only birds to feed are pigeons/sparrows/starlings.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:32 PM on October 3, 2013
While some people keep have sparrow/starling feeders full of cracked corn and milo (it's cheap), there are plenty of other options out there. Of course if you live somewhere where there are few native species to begin with (indiscriminate concrete) I suppose the only birds to feed are pigeons/sparrows/starlings.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:32 PM on October 3, 2013
Clearly people in this thread fall in the pro and anti cat league and that's to be expected. Especially as TNR programs are still considered controversial by many. However, the problem I have with this gentleman and I think we all should is here:
"But the Animal Welfare League has since stopped taking animals he brings in after caretakers and other shelters called to inquire about lost cats, said Linda Estrada, director of the league, who was "furious" that her group was listed on his business cards."
So, he's not just capturing strays. He's capturing peoples pets. My cats are strictly indoor pets, and I don't think outdoor cats are a good idea. But I know many people that DO let their cats out. This guy is catching them. And taking them to shelters. Cat's that aren't feral or stray.
"Norton declined to say which shelters he uses now."
Yeah, this one worries me a lot. Is he using a shelter anymore, period? Or is he gassing them himself? He has all the conviction of someone who would. He thinks he's in the right here.
For the people that are arguing Birds V. Cats; even the local Audubon society has disowned him.
He's crazy pants. He's driving around places he has no business being, misrepresenting who he is and what he does all in order to fulfill some ill-conceive belief that he is the savior of cats. Or people. But he's the savior of something, and this is his destiny. You can't deny him his destiny!
$20 says we find out this guy has cat skin lampshades in the basement.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:00 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
"But the Animal Welfare League has since stopped taking animals he brings in after caretakers and other shelters called to inquire about lost cats, said Linda Estrada, director of the league, who was "furious" that her group was listed on his business cards."
So, he's not just capturing strays. He's capturing peoples pets. My cats are strictly indoor pets, and I don't think outdoor cats are a good idea. But I know many people that DO let their cats out. This guy is catching them. And taking them to shelters. Cat's that aren't feral or stray.
"Norton declined to say which shelters he uses now."
Yeah, this one worries me a lot. Is he using a shelter anymore, period? Or is he gassing them himself? He has all the conviction of someone who would. He thinks he's in the right here.
For the people that are arguing Birds V. Cats; even the local Audubon society has disowned him.
He's crazy pants. He's driving around places he has no business being, misrepresenting who he is and what he does all in order to fulfill some ill-conceive belief that he is the savior of cats. Or people. But he's the savior of something, and this is his destiny. You can't deny him his destiny!
$20 says we find out this guy has cat skin lampshades in the basement.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:00 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted; let's not bring gross cat-killing stories from fake news sites into this thread. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 2:05 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by taz (staff) at 2:05 AM on October 4, 2013
His origin story, where he finds a bunch of kittens and then tracks and traps their mom finds his life calling. It's like he's telling this story as in the CAT was LIVING under the HOUSE CAN YOU IMAGINE.
But the stories of kids torturing cats -- which is where I would maybe go, okay, better ways to die cat, come on -- is sort of tossed off at the end of the article. As, in, okay, here's a sane reason, but not really connected to Trapper John's motivation.
And why are we attached to cats? Because they aren't supposed to be wild. Because the problem arises from irresponsible owners. And thus we feel a moral clenching when talking about the situation. Calling them furry asian carp doesn't get to it. People don't have asian carp sleeping in their beds with them.
posted by angrycat at 3:39 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
But the stories of kids torturing cats -- which is where I would maybe go, okay, better ways to die cat, come on -- is sort of tossed off at the end of the article. As, in, okay, here's a sane reason, but not really connected to Trapper John's motivation.
And why are we attached to cats? Because they aren't supposed to be wild. Because the problem arises from irresponsible owners. And thus we feel a moral clenching when talking about the situation. Calling them furry asian carp doesn't get to it. People don't have asian carp sleeping in their beds with them.
posted by angrycat at 3:39 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
My cats are strictly indoor pets, and I don't think outdoor cats are a good idea. But I know many people that DO let their cats out. This guy is catching them. And taking them to shelters. Cat's that aren't feral or stray.
My cats are indoor cats too, and they have collars and microchips. BUT even strictly indoor cats have been known to escape. I've had a few near-misses when signing for a package or a pizza, or when a visitor doesn't close my finicky front door tightly and it swings open. I can do everything right as a model "responsible owner" and still have one of my cats get out. I'd hate for some crazy ailurophobe to get their hands on one of my sweet kitties. (A shelter would scan for a chip and/or see the collar and tag, of course, but I don't trust people like "Trapper John" not to take justice in their own hands without turning kitty over to a shelter.)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:46 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
My cats are indoor cats too, and they have collars and microchips. BUT even strictly indoor cats have been known to escape. I've had a few near-misses when signing for a package or a pizza, or when a visitor doesn't close my finicky front door tightly and it swings open. I can do everything right as a model "responsible owner" and still have one of my cats get out. I'd hate for some crazy ailurophobe to get their hands on one of my sweet kitties. (A shelter would scan for a chip and/or see the collar and tag, of course, but I don't trust people like "Trapper John" not to take justice in their own hands without turning kitty over to a shelter.)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:46 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Here in Minneapolis our city council has been convinced (or, as I interpret it, bullied) into bringing a new ordinance to a vote that if approved will allow ground feeding of feral cats so people can establish "feral cat colonies" to assist with TNR programs. It's insanity. I wrote a letter to my city councilperson, which is below.
I was disheartened to read in the Star Tribune that you have spoken in favor of allowing the feeding of feral cats in Minneapolis. Please reconsider this position. Feral cats are a public health hazard as well as a ruthlessly efficient predator of native bird populations.
A study conducted by the Smithsonian and U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service this year concluded that cats are killing 3.7 BILLION birds annually in North America (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cats-and-bird-populations). Feral cats are not part of our ecosystem and have no place in it, urban or rural.
I do not support Trap-neuter-release programs, but going even further and allowing feral populations to be legally fed is wildly absurd and counter-productive to the problem.
There is a very passionate group of misguided people pushing for these types of changes. Don't be fooled, they are not a majority.
I love cats. I have two. They stay inside, where they will live a long and happy life. But I'm also a life-long bird-watching enthusiast, and have witnessed a steady and marked decline in their populations since I was a child. Feral cats are a huge, huge contributor to that decline. This is no longer in question from the scientific community.
Please reconsider your position and vote against this terrible legislation.
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:55 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I was disheartened to read in the Star Tribune that you have spoken in favor of allowing the feeding of feral cats in Minneapolis. Please reconsider this position. Feral cats are a public health hazard as well as a ruthlessly efficient predator of native bird populations.
A study conducted by the Smithsonian and U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service this year concluded that cats are killing 3.7 BILLION birds annually in North America (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cats-and-bird-populations). Feral cats are not part of our ecosystem and have no place in it, urban or rural.
I do not support Trap-neuter-release programs, but going even further and allowing feral populations to be legally fed is wildly absurd and counter-productive to the problem.
There is a very passionate group of misguided people pushing for these types of changes. Don't be fooled, they are not a majority.
I love cats. I have two. They stay inside, where they will live a long and happy life. But I'm also a life-long bird-watching enthusiast, and have witnessed a steady and marked decline in their populations since I was a child. Feral cats are a huge, huge contributor to that decline. This is no longer in question from the scientific community.
Please reconsider your position and vote against this terrible legislation.
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:55 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, all those feral cats in Detroit are a menace to the native...um...stuff. Maybe rats.
We need to tame all those wild foxes, too, because they lead horrible lives. Or else kill them. And finches. And horrible-living wild bears, too.
Seriously, Spay or Neuter your goddam cats, and get them from a shelter, not a kitty mill. Cats are as good at making a living in the wild as any other small predator. Better than most. But predator/prey proportions are the operative notion here. Cat colonies don't enjoy a balance.
posted by mule98J at 1:16 PM on October 4, 2013
We need to tame all those wild foxes, too, because they lead horrible lives. Or else kill them. And finches. And horrible-living wild bears, too.
Seriously, Spay or Neuter your goddam cats, and get them from a shelter, not a kitty mill. Cats are as good at making a living in the wild as any other small predator. Better than most. But predator/prey proportions are the operative notion here. Cat colonies don't enjoy a balance.
posted by mule98J at 1:16 PM on October 4, 2013
The organizations that sponsor TNR in Chicago (at least the ones that I'm familiar with) are no-kill shelters that promote it as a way to gradually reduce the feral population in a humane way. These aren't people who think that feral colonies are a good thing, or that cats have any business being outside at all. These are shelters that make potential adopters sign legally binding contracts promising to keep their cats inside! TNR is trying to accomplish pretty much the exact same thing as Trapper John, just without killing cats. And I feel like "not killing cats" is a value that most people should be able to get behind.
posted by 912 Greens at 1:25 PM on October 4, 2013
posted by 912 Greens at 1:25 PM on October 4, 2013
flarbuse, please do NOT feed the feral cats! It is irresponsible to feed any cat that you are not willing to take into your home and make into an indoor cat (who should also be sterilized and vaccinated). Your other option would be trap the cats and take them to a shelter. I cannot understand why you are feeding ferals, and I wish you would come back into the thread, because you are contributing to the feral cat problem and maybe you just don't realize it.
I love cats. We have two, both of them rescues. I am 100% in favor of trapping, sterilizing feral cats and vaccinating them. Releasing them back into the wild is where it gets problematic for me. I am not sure it really is effective in my area. I think part of the reason is that it is difficult to know how consistently it is being implemented. Ideally, I think we would like the only cats in a given neighborhood to be healthy, vaccinated cats who have been neutered (indoor/outdoor versus indoor-only cats and the bird population is related but really a side-issue here). Bottom line, if we want feral cats completely off the streets, that means either they get homes, or we have to euthanize them. There just aren't enough homes to take them all in. I don't like the idea of euthanizing any animal, but I think we can see that sometimes it has to be done.
One reason TNR doesn't work as well as it should is because I am sure there are lots of people who, like flarbuse and his wife, feel sorry for strays. I feel bad for strays myself. That is why I agonize over trapping them and taking them to the animal shelter here, which is no longer a no-kill shelter. I can understand emotion getting in the way of practicality.
My BIL upset me recently by admitting that he sometimes had baby alligators show up in his swimming pool and he responded by feeding them marshmallows. Seriously?! At some point, we have to deal with the reality. Sure, I'll grant you baby alligators are cute. They also grow up. Alligators who are not only NOT afraid of people but who associate them with lovely marshmallow-dispensing vending machines doesn't seem like something that could turn into a problem down the line?
Same thing with those cute kittens. They are adorable now, but as soon as they can breed they will be making more adorable kittens who ALSO need to be fed. How many can you feed before you have to see you can't handle any more? That's how feral populations get out of control. In feeding just one or two strays, you may feel you are helping them, but what you are really doing is increasing the feral population and making conditions for all of the strays worse. So I opt not to feed them.
And I understand why, even though I don't want any animal to be euthanized, I can see the case for doing that for ferals strays as opposed to turning them over to the TNR program.
This guy from the article seems obsessed and dangerous rather than just practical, though. The flyers he says he didn't leave are obviously his work, and his trapping pets rather than feral cats is not okay. Having worked in the system before, he should be able to tell a feral cat (which are usually marked with a clipped ear) from a pampered Persian housecat who escaped through a carelessly left open door.
posted by misha at 3:29 PM on October 4, 2013
I love cats. We have two, both of them rescues. I am 100% in favor of trapping, sterilizing feral cats and vaccinating them. Releasing them back into the wild is where it gets problematic for me. I am not sure it really is effective in my area. I think part of the reason is that it is difficult to know how consistently it is being implemented. Ideally, I think we would like the only cats in a given neighborhood to be healthy, vaccinated cats who have been neutered (indoor/outdoor versus indoor-only cats and the bird population is related but really a side-issue here). Bottom line, if we want feral cats completely off the streets, that means either they get homes, or we have to euthanize them. There just aren't enough homes to take them all in. I don't like the idea of euthanizing any animal, but I think we can see that sometimes it has to be done.
One reason TNR doesn't work as well as it should is because I am sure there are lots of people who, like flarbuse and his wife, feel sorry for strays. I feel bad for strays myself. That is why I agonize over trapping them and taking them to the animal shelter here, which is no longer a no-kill shelter. I can understand emotion getting in the way of practicality.
My BIL upset me recently by admitting that he sometimes had baby alligators show up in his swimming pool and he responded by feeding them marshmallows. Seriously?! At some point, we have to deal with the reality. Sure, I'll grant you baby alligators are cute. They also grow up. Alligators who are not only NOT afraid of people but who associate them with lovely marshmallow-dispensing vending machines doesn't seem like something that could turn into a problem down the line?
Same thing with those cute kittens. They are adorable now, but as soon as they can breed they will be making more adorable kittens who ALSO need to be fed. How many can you feed before you have to see you can't handle any more? That's how feral populations get out of control. In feeding just one or two strays, you may feel you are helping them, but what you are really doing is increasing the feral population and making conditions for all of the strays worse. So I opt not to feed them.
And I understand why, even though I don't want any animal to be euthanized, I can see the case for doing that for ferals strays as opposed to turning them over to the TNR program.
This guy from the article seems obsessed and dangerous rather than just practical, though. The flyers he says he didn't leave are obviously his work, and his trapping pets rather than feral cats is not okay. Having worked in the system before, he should be able to tell a feral cat (which are usually marked with a clipped ear) from a pampered Persian housecat who escaped through a carelessly left open door.
posted by misha at 3:29 PM on October 4, 2013
No, it's not irresponsible to feed feral cats _as long as you work to spay and neuter them_. flarbuse should definitely hook up with a TNR program. Which is in fact a much better way to get a stable non-kitten producing population in your neighborhood, instead of new cats constantly coming in as you remove others.
posted by tavella at 4:04 PM on October 4, 2013
posted by tavella at 4:04 PM on October 4, 2013
Steely-eyed Missile Man: I am really curious how TNR is so great but extermination has a "poor" record. Don't both methods prevent them from breeding?
Full disclosure: I'm a cat lover, shelter volunteer, and TNR advocate.
One reason TNR works better than extermination is the vacuum effect mentioned in the article. Feral cats compete for resources and territory like any other wild animals. When an animal is removed from an area or colony, another animal will move in and take its place.
When feral cats are sterilized and returned to their colonies, they prevent other cats from moving in. They're also better neighbors because they no longer add to the population or compete for mating rights (which causes nuisance behaviors like fighting and spraying). A managed colony of sterilized cats will die off naturally. If other colonies are similarly managed, eventually there will be no cats left to take over unused territory.
Another consideration is that cats can repopulate an exterminated area faster than we can exterminate them. A female cat can have her first litter when she's only about five months old, and she can have at least three litters per year. Population growth can be enormous in a short time.
Anyone interested in the problem of eradicating feral cats should read about Marion Island. Because the island is only 115 square miles, uninhabited by humans, and inaccessible to new cats, it was ideal for eradication efforts, but elimination of the island's ~ 3,000 feral cats took over 15 years and resulted in a new problem with mice. I won't link to anything to avoid accusations of biased sources; I suggest Googling Marion Island + feral cats.
posted by swerve at 11:50 AM on October 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Full disclosure: I'm a cat lover, shelter volunteer, and TNR advocate.
One reason TNR works better than extermination is the vacuum effect mentioned in the article. Feral cats compete for resources and territory like any other wild animals. When an animal is removed from an area or colony, another animal will move in and take its place.
When feral cats are sterilized and returned to their colonies, they prevent other cats from moving in. They're also better neighbors because they no longer add to the population or compete for mating rights (which causes nuisance behaviors like fighting and spraying). A managed colony of sterilized cats will die off naturally. If other colonies are similarly managed, eventually there will be no cats left to take over unused territory.
Another consideration is that cats can repopulate an exterminated area faster than we can exterminate them. A female cat can have her first litter when she's only about five months old, and she can have at least three litters per year. Population growth can be enormous in a short time.
Anyone interested in the problem of eradicating feral cats should read about Marion Island. Because the island is only 115 square miles, uninhabited by humans, and inaccessible to new cats, it was ideal for eradication efforts, but elimination of the island's ~ 3,000 feral cats took over 15 years and resulted in a new problem with mice. I won't link to anything to avoid accusations of biased sources; I suggest Googling Marion Island + feral cats.
posted by swerve at 11:50 AM on October 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
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posted by rebent at 10:39 AM on October 3, 2013