professional rock climber Joe Kinder cuts down juniper trees for sport

October 31, 2013 5:35 PM

Professional sport climber Joe Kinder recently admitted to cutting down two Juniper trees at the base of a climbing cliff in the Tahoe, California region in order to make a climb safer. Kinder at first did not admit to the action, which may be illegal (with fines up to $500 and up to six months in jail if the tree was in the Tahoe National Forest) but has since posted an apology (My Actions, My Responsibility, And My Mistake) to his blog.
posted by gen (65 comments total)

He had to be told he'd done something wrong?!

/boggles
posted by rtha at 5:39 PM on October 31, 2013 [11 favorites]

I don't know how old those junipers are but we have cedars growing out of cliff faces used for climbing around here which are several hundreds to more than a thousand years old and some of the oldest living organisms in N America. And they look like little shrubs, just like the one in the pic.
posted by sweet mister at 5:40 PM on October 31, 2013 [2 favorites]

I can't imagine that anyone who has seriously climbed around there for any length of time wouldn't know what a douche move that was. Trees in those conditions are regularly hundreds of years old, and lucky to have taken root in the middle of a rock face in the first place.
I think his halfhearted bullshit excuse of "safety" is insufficient. You can't just do anything you want to to make a route.
posted by Red Loop at 5:42 PM on October 31, 2013 [9 favorites]

I too cannot believe that Kinder did not know that what he was doing was inappropriate, unethical, and may be illegal to boot. This would be wrong in New Hampshire, where Kinder is from, the same as it is in Tahoe.

The 'apology' was insincere to my read.
posted by gen at 5:47 PM on October 31, 2013 [4 favorites]

"Safety" seems to be the excuse du jour for destroying natural features in parks.
posted by asterix at 5:48 PM on October 31, 2013 [4 favorites]

The guy was a douche. Worse than a douche. But when we start prosecuting people who are destroying entire ecosystems for big profits, I'll get more upset about this pro climbing bro. Until then let's keep our outrage meters properly calibrated.
posted by mondo dentro at 6:01 PM on October 31, 2013 [16 favorites]

The trees might grow back in a few thousand years, but the bolt holes will still be there.
posted by Pre-Taped Call In Show at 6:02 PM on October 31, 2013 [1 favorite]

Way back when, when I was a pup, I remember thinking that the set of people who did outdoor sports (like me) and the set of people who cared about nature (like me) had a perfect correspondence.

Haha! Wrong.
posted by klanawa at 6:16 PM on October 31, 2013 [7 favorites]

He doesn't sound like he knew what he was doing. Maybe the $500 fine is a good idea, more to publicize how important these trees are than anything else. They really are precious, and need to be protected carefully. But wringing our hands and working ourselves up into a lather about one clueless climber who didn't know any better is not going to help us do that. The only thing to do is use this as a moment for educating people in a positive way.
posted by koeselitz at 6:19 PM on October 31, 2013 [2 favorites]

"Safety" seems to be the excuse du jour for destroying natural features in parks.

Of course, a better way of being safe would be to stay home, not climb the rocks, and not cut the damn trees down.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 6:19 PM on October 31, 2013 [8 favorites]

But now having read his apology, I kinda believe that he feels rotten about it. If it seems insincere, it may just be because he's a crap writer.
posted by klanawa at 6:20 PM on October 31, 2013 [2 favorites]

I don't get it, he says he was devastated and horrified when he received the email from Chris Doyle but then denies what he did when Laforest later calls him out publicly. If he was so sorry, he would have owned up to it immediately.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 6:24 PM on October 31, 2013 [4 favorites]

I mean, he's far from being the worst person ever to exist for this. Thoreau burned a whole forest down, for heaven's sake. The big picture matters more than stringing up this one guy. To a large extent, if people make mistakes like these, we really need to see it as a sign that we need to be educating folks better about the trees and their life cycle.

Hanging around and piling on him and talking about how he's the nadir of evil souls is basically the opposite of educating people.
posted by koeselitz at 6:24 PM on October 31, 2013 [1 favorite]

Drawing an analogy to murder is just about the dumbest thing I've read all day. The guy is an idiot, sure, but cutting down two scrubby juniper trees, pre-meditated or not, is not tantamount to taking a human life. Knock it off with all the hand-wringing. Like mondo dentro said, let's keep our outrage meters properly calibrated.
posted by casconed at 6:27 PM on October 31, 2013 [4 favorites]

What the flying hell.

As someone who actually let myself get injured worse than I would have been already so that my climbing buddies wouldn't further damage a tree, fuck this guy. I already had a torn tendon, killing (possibly) a tree wasn't going to untear my tendon, and I wasn't in any real danger of death unless I did something stupid.

I think he should be made to camp out there and shelter two seedlings till they become sufficiently established in the locations where he cut those. If that takes the rest of his life, good.
posted by strixus at 6:30 PM on October 31, 2013 [6 favorites]

self centered ahole
posted by robbyrobs at 6:47 PM on October 31, 2013 [2 favorites]

An interesting examination of the practice of "gardening" a route.
posted by bmarkey at 6:50 PM on October 31, 2013 [1 favorite]

I understand it's not the end of the world, but seriously, anyone who climbs a lot out there, like this guy does, absolutely should know better. To me, it seems he just got caught and had to apologize to not be the pariah of his community.
posted by Red Loop at 6:55 PM on October 31, 2013 [2 favorites]

I hope he gets pariah status for a little while, anyway.

And I hope both he and those idiot fucking Scoutmasters have to do some large number of hours volunteering for an org that does habitat restoration. Go spend some hundreds of hours digging out invasives and planting native plants.
posted by rtha at 7:00 PM on October 31, 2013 [7 favorites]

Pariah and a big ass fine. He's not apologetic, he's just sorry he got caught.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:36 PM on October 31, 2013 [2 favorites]

There's a sign threatening a $500 fine if I walk my dog across my borough's children's baseball diamond. For a case like this, it's way too small an amount. The jail time might be sufficient, though.
posted by jon1270 at 7:46 PM on October 31, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm sitting in my wooden house burning wood to keep myself warm. The firewood came from an oak tree I cut down because it was in the way of where I wanted to put a chicken coop.

All that is to say, I'm not that outraged. Sure, they were not his trees to cut, but how outraged are we going to be about all the other trees that got cut down to put lakeside cabins in Tahoe?
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 7:49 PM on October 31, 2013 [7 favorites]

How one man killed the oldest tree in the world.
posted by empath at 7:57 PM on October 31, 2013

argument for misanthropy.
posted by wallstreet1929 at 8:27 PM on October 31, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm surprised the maximum fine is so low; here the max fine for littering is $2000. Cutting down a government tree can be tens of thousands of dollars and years in prison (of course those are targeted for commercially viable trees but junipers can be worth a lot of money).
posted by Mitheral at 8:42 PM on October 31, 2013

jon1270: "There's a sign threatening a $500 fine if I walk my dog across my borough's children's baseball diamond. For a case like this, it's way too small an amount. The jail time might be sufficient, though."

As someone who's actually been to jail, I have to say that the idea of taking away six months of a man's life because he made a small mistake like this is absolutely and completely insane, and evinces a mob mentality. There are people in the world who make money by actively polluting the environment knowingly, and we want to destroy this guy? Can we not see that we're doing nothing but harm to our own cause when we act this way?

Also, a $500 fine for walking a dog anywhere is nuts.
posted by koeselitz at 8:53 PM on October 31, 2013 [10 favorites]

Also, a $500 fine for walking a dog anywhere is nuts.

I'd guess there's a tipping point where people will start paying attention:

Stimuli: $5 fine if you walk your dog across a public children's baseball diamond.
Response: "Eh." (Ignore sign)

Stimuli: $100 fine if you walk your dog across a public children's baseball diamond.
Response: "Huh." (Ignore sign)

Stimuli: $500 fine if you walk your dog across a public children's baseball diamond.
Response: "Eek!" (Demonstrate basic courtesy, and avoid walking a potential urine and feces source across the baseball diamond .)
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:28 PM on October 31, 2013 [5 favorites]

I have to say that the idea of taking away six months of a man's life because he made a small mistake like this

Correction: not a mistake, a deliberate plan to act.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:57 PM on October 31, 2013 [3 favorites]

I'd think about a week would be the appropriate span of time in this instance.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:09 PM on October 31, 2013

because he made a small mistake

Except it's not a small mistake. It was calmly planned, not accidental, and no amount of money can fix it. $500? Can't fix it. $5 million? Can't fix it.

Sending him to jail won't fix it either, of course, but maybe the next person won't decide that it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. The only thing that gives me pause is the abominable condition of America's prisons. But can we at least give him a week in county lockup, a fine he'll remember, and a lifetime ban from Federal parks?
posted by tyllwin at 11:28 PM on October 31, 2013 [2 favorites]

I can't believe people here want to submit him to a jail sentence, it'll teach him nothing and he'll just be in a prison cell climbing the walls
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:50 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

Reminds me of the story of the man who cut down the Golden Spruce, of which we spoke awhile ago.
posted by y2karl at 2:28 AM on November 1, 2013

As someone who's actually been to jail, I have to say that the idea of taking away six months of a man's life because he made a small mistake like this is absolutely and completely insane...

Fair enough, I don't really think jail is appropriate either. But if this guy climbs for a living, and if cutting these trees facilitated a climb that he wouldn't have been willing to attempt with the trees in place, then a $500 fine on one occasion when he happens to get caught isn't likely to change his decision-making process next time he encounters such a situation. Absent the bad PR the decision to cut the trees was rational, and would probably remain so even if he was fined the maximum amount. A $500/tree fine is probably plenty to dissuade people from cutting the trees for firewood, but seems nearly meaningless here.
posted by jon1270 at 2:45 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also, a $500 fine for walking a dog anywhere is nuts.

Not really, because it's TANTAMOUNT TO MURDER!!!
posted by indubitable at 3:33 AM on November 1, 2013

Until then let's keep our outrage meters properly calibrated.

Jesu Christo do I dislike this stance. There's no getting angry about something without some people telling you that you shouldn't be angry, and other people telling you that should be angry at other things.
posted by Ipsifendus at 4:34 AM on November 1, 2013 [6 favorites]

Unless he owns the land, cutting down those trees is illegal whether they were in the park or not.

My main goal when it comes to putting up a new route is: Will this climb be something high-quality, something safe and something that climbers will enjoy? I try to make decisions that answer those questions as best as possible.

This tree I lowered through was in a dangerous spot due to the fact that there was a difficult part on this route near the ground.

The tree was in a dangerous spot because some guy with no respect for nature wanted to climb rocks there. He did not have to climb there. Sorry, bud, but your priorities are crap.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:35 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

Almost all of the greater Lake Tahoe area is under some notoriously strict environmental laws. For him to not know this was a bad thing, especially after spending any time there, is not really believable.
posted by Badgermann at 5:24 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]

me: “because he made a small mistake”

tyllwin: “Except it's not a small mistake.”

Yes, it is. In the grand scheme, it is a small mistake. I care about forests. I grew up caring about forests. My father works for the Forest Service, is a devotee of John Muir, instilled in me a respect for these things. I take seriously the death of those two juniper trees. But humans cut down trees; it's something we've always done, and it's understandably something that takes some education to learn isn't always a great idea.

While I take this seriously, we don't even know how old these Junipers were. In the original Instagram post about this, it seems as though Bernie LaForest extrapolated wildly from the fact that these were fully-grown junipers to assume that they were ancient, hundreds of years old. We have no idea if that is the case. I guess it's worth checking, but I'll say it – I've cut down junipers, too. We had four young junipers in our yard when I was growing up in Denver. I helped my dad cut them down when we were doing some relandscaping of our yard. That is not to say that wantonly killing trees in the wild is an awesome idea. It is to say that it's something that happens every single day, and mostly by commercial logging agencies.

This was a small mistake. Keystone / KXL is a big mistake. Cutting down whole stands of old-growth redwood is a big mistake. Shooting carbon counts in our atmosphere into a range that's likely to kill a lot of things is a big mistake. But we're basically screaming at a guy for having dropped a McDonald's wrapper in front of a plant that's spewing sludge into the river.
posted by koeselitz at 5:32 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

But we're basically screaming at a guy for having dropped a McDonald's wrapper in front of a plant that's spewing sludge into the river.

If you go much farther out on that limb, somebody's going to saw it off...
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:49 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]

guy owes us all a tree but his apology was made up weasel talk.

And worse are all you screamers out there pointing fingers just to be outraged or moralistic. Take it down a notch. Douchebags breathe air too.
posted by Colonel Panic at 5:51 AM on November 1, 2013

It's not a small mistake because that term doesn't cover making a plan to do something illegal and then doing that thing and then claiming you didn't do that thing until there's enough evidence that you finally had to admit that yeah, well, maybe you did do it a few times but here's why it was okay because I'm smarter than everyone.

Mistake is not part of the story.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 6:07 AM on November 1, 2013 [6 favorites]

y2karl: "Reminds me of the story of the man who cut down the Golden Spruce, of which we spoke awhile ago."

That was a greater tragedy but at least it was a form of political protest rather than an expedience for recreation..
posted by Mitheral at 6:29 AM on November 1, 2013

Ipsifendus: “There's no getting angry about something without some people telling you that you shouldn't be angry, and other people telling you that should be angry at other things.”

Anger and justice are incompatible.
posted by koeselitz at 6:59 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

What? How?

I'm angry at this guy. I do not want to see him go to jail, though, because that would be dumb and waste of resources. I want to see him pay a fine and have to do a bunch of hours of habitat restoration. How are those things incompatible?
posted by rtha at 7:07 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think he should be fined for despoiling the environment, and possibly serve a little jail time.

If a corporation does a million times as much damage to the environment, then I do indeed think they should be fined a million times as much, and collectively serve a million times as much jail time.

OK? Does my outrage pass your outrage inspection? Because I still think this guy is an asshole.
posted by kyrademon at 7:07 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

And on preview, I'll add that I agree that habitat restoration is a much better idea than jail time, both for him and for the corporation.
posted by kyrademon at 7:08 AM on November 1, 2013

As a positive point: he was universally condemned by the climbing community, and the climbing community is what pressured him into coming forward.

So, if this is one guy messing up in a self correcting community, in my book it's not as bad as a community crossing lines and being reined in by law only.
posted by Riton at 7:26 AM on November 1, 2013 [5 favorites]

koeselitz, I think you're mixing scales: I mean this is not a small mistake on the scale of a single's person's ordinary life. A small mistake is if I hand someone decaf coffee when I meant to hand them regular. Something easily fixed, with no lasting harm. The keystone pipeline is a large mistake on the scale of a nation. A single person has a hard time competing with that -- if that's what it takes to make a large mistake, I've never made one, because at that scale robbing a bank is a small mistake in comparison. If we were talking about the absolute scale of environmental damage then your comparison would be apt.

As for your own junipers, they were your trees on your land in a populated area. These weren't.
posted by tyllwin at 7:59 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

Maybe instead of clamouring for this one guy to have his head cut off, we could take a longer view of the situation. Why do these junipers even matter? Because of the destruction of millions of acres of forest over the past couple of centuries, in part to build the home each of us lives in or the highway we drive on or the mega-mall we shop in or the meat factory we buy our food from. We might not have cut any trees with our own hands, or for purposes that we consider distasteful, but we're all complicit in much worse crimes.

We can choose between teaching this guy a lesson or learning it ourselves.
posted by klanawa at 8:32 AM on November 1, 2013

Maybe instead of clamouring for this one guy to have his head cut off,

Talk about hyperbole.
posted by rtha at 8:43 AM on November 1, 2013

koeselitz: "While I take this seriously, we don't even know how old these Junipers were."
It's true, we don't know. And in the grand scale of things, this is not an earth-shattering loss. I think the reason that it particularly rankles is probably related to the fact that it was in a set-aside natural area, not in a logging operation; it was in pursuit of a recreational, unnecessary climbing route; and junipers in those conditions are often very, very old and the loss of an individual can take hundreds to thousands of years to replace. Hell, by then they might not even grow there anymore. But look, just because you had young junipers in Colorado that you cut doesn't really mean anything in this context. Some junipers in some places grow pretty quickly. Some grow very slowly. Western juniper can reach ages of up to around 4000 years. No one knows just how old, because the sample size of cross-dated trees is relatively small compared to the population. When you hear people talking about the oldest tree in the world being 5000 years old, that's just the oldest known tree. There are, quite likely, many older. And because this tree was not exceedingly large doesn't mean it wasn't exceedingly old. The oldest trees are often not very large, because they grow very, very slowly.
Still. Not a lot of people are going to know that, even a lot of climbers who know that trees on cliffs are often pretty old. But cliffsides are harsh climates and a specific ecological niche, and cutting something down like that for a frivolous reason is pretty maddening, bad for the environment people are ostensibly out in to enjoy, and bad for the climbing community.


klanawa: " Why do these junipers even matter? Because of the destruction of millions of acres of forest over the past couple of centuries, in part to build the home each of us lives in or the highway we drive on or the mega-mall we shop in or the meat factory we buy our food from."

And while there can certainly be a number of points made in regards to wanton natural resource destruction by humans in the pursuit of money and other frivolities, I'm not sure why this just can't stand alone as an example within the continuum rather than diminished because of the scale.
posted by Red Loop at 8:45 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]

It rankles because how dare anyone think they can destroy whatever they want in a natural area that many people enjoy. It's an asshole move. What's shocking is the idea that he thought it was no big deal to cut down any tree not on his own land.
posted by agregoli at 9:01 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

When I was a kid we'd always go into the woods every year (not our woods ... they were behind the school and I have no idea to whom they belonged) to cut our Christmas tree. This wasn't a national forest, but permits are routinely granted to take Christmas trees from national forests. I think there are definitely circumstances where it's no big deal to cut down a tree that is not on your own land (though it sounds like this isn't one of them, obviously this was not a permitted act and this was a rarer type of tree due to its age).
posted by enn at 9:33 AM on November 1, 2013

As someone who's actually been to jail, I have to say that the idea of taking away six months of a man's life because he made a small mistake like this is absolutely and completely insane, and evinces a mob mentality. There are people in the world who make money by actively polluting the environment knowingly, and we want to destroy this guy? Can we not see that we're doing nothing but harm to our own cause when we act this way?

yeah, prison is going to be counterproductive. How about good old fashioned corporal punishment? Like maybe 5 lashes in the public square? (not being entirely facetious here). In reality maybe not something quite so literal but some kind of fine + public shaming could work wonders for this kind of thoughtless vandalism?

(I used to live in Northern Arizona and frequently go hiking/hunting throughout the public lands around there. there is a HUGE semi-underground firewood economy in that area that is kinda like how homeless people collect bottles in urban areas. Well Juniper is a highly prized firewood for several reasons and the wood cutters will go to great lengths to get some. Junipers LIKE to grow in loose piles of rocks and the most common loose piles of rocks in the area are ancient Pueblo ruins. Many, many ruins have been actually ruined in the woodcutters desire to get them some juniper. I would have no problem delivering those lashes myself to some of these individuals).
posted by bartonlong at 10:01 AM on November 1, 2013

I kind of like the idea of him putting in a 500-hour tour, next summer, building trails and water bars in the back country. It would suit his skill set, and he would be among people who would have a good read on how craven his act was. Per Diem, but no hourly wage, on account of how he has to bring his own food.

Trail crew chief: "Who's the new guy?"

Crew member: "He's the nimrod that cut down those junipers last year."

Trail crew chief: "Give him the rock bar. We're gonna makes some steps across the pass at First Recess this week."
posted by mule98J at 11:57 AM on November 1, 2013 [6 favorites]

He needs to do public service that includes not climbing anything higher than a stepladder for a very long time.
posted by pracowity at 12:18 PM on November 1, 2013

Joe Kinder interview:

Upon learning that my actions were in fact illegal, I immediately reported myself to the National Forest Service. We talked about the tree, and discovered that it may have been up to 100 years old—not 1,000 years old, the way some people have assumed. Either way, I felt terrible. I paid a fine to the USFS. I’m donating $1,000 to the Sierra Nevada Alliance, whose mission is to protect and restore the natural resources of the Sierra Nevada for future generations while promoting sustainable communities. I’m also donating to the Access Fund and Leave No Trace and I’m spending a week of my time planting trees in Yosemite.

posted by lost_cause at 12:37 PM on November 1, 2013 [6 favorites]

Note that his main sponsor is Petzl. They have sponsored him for 12 years now. They have issued a carefully worded, somber apology.

What they need to actually do, however, is to dump his ass.
posted by seamallowance at 3:38 PM on November 2, 2013 [1 favorite]

gregorypacks.com: Gregory to retain Ambassador Joe Kinder
posted by gen at 4:33 PM on November 3, 2013

petzl.com: A response to Petzl athlete Joe Kinder's actions in California
(Petzl will continue to sponsor Kinder.)
posted by gen at 4:36 PM on November 3, 2013

I'm not sure why this just can't stand alone as an example within the continuum rather than diminished because of the scale.
posted by Red Loop at 8:45 AM on November 1 [4 favorites +] [!]

The only reason to consider this event in isolation is to give people a chance to exercise their moral outrage without having to acknowledge their own responsibility. Nothing stands alone, not in history, not in society, not in nature. Today, millions upon millions of trees will be cut down and consumed, every single one of them just as valuable as the ones this clown cut down. But we're not talking about those because it's so easy to hate one man and so hard to critique the system.

It sucks that he cut the trees down. It's done. Maybe he pays a fine, or whatever. But maybe we could take the opportunity to focus on more serious issues.
posted by klanawa at 10:43 AM on November 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sorry, but I still think it's a helluva thing to presume that people can't be mad at this jackass while simultaneously being pissed at the industry overall, and maybe even actually doing stuff (writing checks, helping pass legislation, spending the weekend planting trees, etc.) to bring attention to the larger issues. I swear that commenting on an internet post is not evidence that the commenter isn't also doing something else.
posted by rtha at 11:00 AM on November 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

That's true – people can comment in anger and be fed up even if they're doing something to help, too. And it's understandable that people are upset about things like this happening.

This is kind of a pet issue for me right now, though, so I hope I can be forgiven for having an ax to grind. I think we liberals get far too wrapped up in internet outrage, in tearing people down when it doesn't necessarily do much good. And that very often spirals out of control into a sort of mob-justice thing where we all create so much noise and anger and hate that people lose their jobs and have their lives ruined and things like that. I just am not sure that needs to happen every single time something bad happens. It feels like we're just intent on punishing people for getting caught doing things like this, and I'm not sure that's the best way to go.

But feelings are just feelings, and there's nothing wrong with being upset with this guy.
posted by koeselitz at 2:48 PM on November 6, 2013

Put down the axe! Save the trees! ;-)
posted by rtha at 2:54 PM on November 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

klanawa: "The only reason to consider this event in isolation is to give people a chance to exercise their moral outrage without having to acknowledge their own responsibility."

I think that's a pretty ridiculous statement. If you want to choose to care about only the macro, then even wholesale forest destruction is only a symptom of the cause of too many humans, consuming too many resources, which is itself a byproduct of human ignorance, so you really should expend all your energy trying to educate people about these things (like why its a problem when someone cuts down a tree to put up a climbing route, & cetera).
posted by Red Loop at 3:42 PM on November 7, 2013 [1 favorite]