Riffing: Conversational one-upmanship
November 11, 2013 9:40 PM Subscribe
"I saw the conversation we were about to have like a long, familiar tunnel, and I turned around and walked away, done with riffing forever."
Kate Carraway is pretty much why I stopped reading Vice. She thinks that successful stream of consciousness writing means that you just make up words and roll loose with grammar. Sorry, but it's really awful writing.
posted by Brocktoon at 9:56 PM on November 11, 2013 [28 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 9:56 PM on November 11, 2013 [28 favorites]
On one hand, I did have to have that moment where I called bullshit on the whole cultural pop quiz one-upsmanship, which might(?) be what is being discussed here. I have spent surrounded by culture snobs of all types. In fact, it seems that there are levels to this sort of thing, and that grow from riff to riff, class to class, age to age - rock snobs, jazz snobs, lit snobs, art snobs - it just gains legitimacy, the more money and prestige that is involved.
On the other hand, I love some real riffing, the bouncing, popping of ideas and language between people who share a rapport. The building of a feeling, a oneness. It hits the sweet spot in my human need to connect with others, to find commonalities over which we can bond, make a little tribe over our weird jokes, looking each other in the eyes with words.
I don't really have a grasp on what the author really means by "riffing," maybe. It could be a deficiency in her expression, or a lack in my own comprehension. But just talking to anyone, about anything, accepting everyone's cultural experience as legitimate, comparing notes, and always always laughing, that's riffing to me, and I won't ever be done with that as long as I draw breath. Because I do so love to draw.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:05 PM on November 11, 2013 [12 favorites]
On the other hand, I love some real riffing, the bouncing, popping of ideas and language between people who share a rapport. The building of a feeling, a oneness. It hits the sweet spot in my human need to connect with others, to find commonalities over which we can bond, make a little tribe over our weird jokes, looking each other in the eyes with words.
I don't really have a grasp on what the author really means by "riffing," maybe. It could be a deficiency in her expression, or a lack in my own comprehension. But just talking to anyone, about anything, accepting everyone's cultural experience as legitimate, comparing notes, and always always laughing, that's riffing to me, and I won't ever be done with that as long as I draw breath. Because I do so love to draw.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:05 PM on November 11, 2013 [12 favorites]
I did not understand this at all. Could someone briefly restate the authors main thesis and supporting ideas?
Absolutely no sarcasm intended.
posted by Gin and Comics at 10:07 PM on November 11, 2013 [54 favorites]
Absolutely no sarcasm intended.
posted by Gin and Comics at 10:07 PM on November 11, 2013 [54 favorites]
So she wrote a riff about how she doesn't riff anymore? Because she's too deep for that boy stuff now? Cute.
posted by Sebmojo at 10:07 PM on November 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 10:07 PM on November 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
I am unsure why riffing is so evil as suggested here. It's a problem if it's all you do, but much like how you can quietly say nothing among friends and still enjoy it, I'd imagine there's a place for loudly saying nothing as well.
posted by solarion at 10:10 PM on November 11, 2013
posted by solarion at 10:10 PM on November 11, 2013
If all I do is riff, you might as well call me raff.
posted by oceanjesse at 10:13 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 10:13 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I sort of half get what she's after here but I think her point gets lost in the lack of specificity. Different kinds of riffing in different contexts have different cultural value and cultural problems. The blanket condemnation doesn't serve her point.
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:13 PM on November 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:13 PM on November 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
I did not understand this at all. Could someone briefly restate the authors main thesis and supporting ideas?
I've read it twice now and I know I responded but as God is my witness I have no idea and multiple readings have not helped.
Maybe she is done with "riffing' because she doesn't know what it means or is not very good at it.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:13 PM on November 11, 2013 [18 favorites]
I've read it twice now and I know I responded but as God is my witness I have no idea and multiple readings have not helped.
Maybe she is done with "riffing' because she doesn't know what it means or is not very good at it.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:13 PM on November 11, 2013 [18 favorites]
Could someone briefly restate the authors main thesis and supporting ideas?
Riffing: Conversational one-upmanship.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:17 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Riffing: Conversational one-upmanship.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:17 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't really have a grasp on what the author really means by "riffing," maybe.
Same here. I am aware of two meanings: the original meaning from jazz, for improvisation, and the meaning as in MST3K/RiffTrax/Cinematic Titanic, to comment along with some video thing in a way that refers to that thing. This doesn't seem to match up with either.
posted by JHarris at 10:17 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Same here. I am aware of two meanings: the original meaning from jazz, for improvisation, and the meaning as in MST3K/RiffTrax/Cinematic Titanic, to comment along with some video thing in a way that refers to that thing. This doesn't seem to match up with either.
posted by JHarris at 10:17 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Riffing: Conversational one-upmanship.
Maybe she is done with "riffing' because she doesn't know what it means or is not very good at it.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:18 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Maybe she is done with "riffing' because she doesn't know what it means or is not very good at it.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:18 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Pretty sure Metafilter is like nine tenths riffing.
posted by Artw at 10:18 PM on November 11, 2013 [41 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:18 PM on November 11, 2013 [41 favorites]
"I didn't want to spend any more time as the kind of person whose social value has to do with ephemera, with sanctioned humor, as processed and refined as white sugar, and knowing about something because it is new."
This doesn't seem very hard to grasp. I think some people here are being willfully obtuse.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:20 PM on November 11, 2013 [8 favorites]
This doesn't seem very hard to grasp. I think some people here are being willfully obtuse.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:20 PM on November 11, 2013 [8 favorites]
I have no idea, either, what she means by riffing. In my defense, I tried to read it. I have a pretty high tolerance, really. I teach writing to ESL students, and my god, after checking forty ESL student essays on their hometown, you think I'd be able to plow through that, but... guh.
Only very tangentially, there was an interesting, vaguely seismic shift in conversation patterns in my largest group of friends. We pretty much all got tired of any form of one-upmanship. Anytime someone one upped another person, other people would extend the one-upmanning to the nth absurd degree.
A: I had a really good beer from (Brewery X) the other day.
B: Oh, yeah, I know (Brewery X). I used to like it, until I had this IPA from (Brewery Y), which is totally awesome and better than (Brewery X).
A: Uh...
C: Yeah, well I brew my own beer, from grain I harvest myself. It's even betterer than (Brewery Y) because I fought the owner of (Brewery Y), and I stole his inferior formula from his bleeding corpse.
D: That's nothing. I invented drinking beer. Before the beer I had last night, no one had ever imagined the concept. The beer I invented, it was so good that the experience of drinking it travelled back through time, and the echoes of it's passing encouraged ancient Sumerians to create pale copies of the emotional bliss that tiptoed through their dreams.
E: Piffle. I invented fermentation. Then, because it didn't exist yet, I created wheat.
And so on, until the whole one-upsmanship thing died. Now we talk to each other.
posted by Ghidorah at 10:34 PM on November 11, 2013 [41 favorites]
Only very tangentially, there was an interesting, vaguely seismic shift in conversation patterns in my largest group of friends. We pretty much all got tired of any form of one-upmanship. Anytime someone one upped another person, other people would extend the one-upmanning to the nth absurd degree.
A: I had a really good beer from (Brewery X) the other day.
B: Oh, yeah, I know (Brewery X). I used to like it, until I had this IPA from (Brewery Y), which is totally awesome and better than (Brewery X).
A: Uh...
C: Yeah, well I brew my own beer, from grain I harvest myself. It's even betterer than (Brewery Y) because I fought the owner of (Brewery Y), and I stole his inferior formula from his bleeding corpse.
D: That's nothing. I invented drinking beer. Before the beer I had last night, no one had ever imagined the concept. The beer I invented, it was so good that the experience of drinking it travelled back through time, and the echoes of it's passing encouraged ancient Sumerians to create pale copies of the emotional bliss that tiptoed through their dreams.
E: Piffle. I invented fermentation. Then, because it didn't exist yet, I created wheat.
And so on, until the whole one-upsmanship thing died. Now we talk to each other.
posted by Ghidorah at 10:34 PM on November 11, 2013 [41 favorites]
This doesn't seem very hard to grasp. I think some people here are being willfully obtuse.
I'll take that one.
It's not that I am being obtuse, it's that I don't think that what she calls riffing is really riffing. She keeps using that word, and I do not think it means what she thinks it means.
I mean, I know where she's coming from - I have a lot of friends who are musicians, or music writers, or music snobs, and if your entire social circle revolves around this very homogenous set of interests (and I get the feeling from the piece that this is where she is coming from) then yes, measuring one's record collection by the square inch while waxing rhapsodic about a band that could potentially be fictional (which I have done, when I was sick of it and was a bigger asshole.)
I think that what she needs, though, is not to be done with riffing, but to riff with different people, not just moody rockboys. Bop around with anyone who is willing to bop, no judgies, maybe some argument some frisson but all in real interest and respect.
Pretty sure Metafilter is like nine tenths riffing.
YES. do it like this. It is not bad, you will learn stuff and make friends! Trust.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:36 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'll take that one.
It's not that I am being obtuse, it's that I don't think that what she calls riffing is really riffing. She keeps using that word, and I do not think it means what she thinks it means.
I mean, I know where she's coming from - I have a lot of friends who are musicians, or music writers, or music snobs, and if your entire social circle revolves around this very homogenous set of interests (and I get the feeling from the piece that this is where she is coming from) then yes, measuring one's record collection by the square inch while waxing rhapsodic about a band that could potentially be fictional (which I have done, when I was sick of it and was a bigger asshole.)
I think that what she needs, though, is not to be done with riffing, but to riff with different people, not just moody rockboys. Bop around with anyone who is willing to bop, no judgies, maybe some argument some frisson but all in real interest and respect.
Pretty sure Metafilter is like nine tenths riffing.
YES. do it like this. It is not bad, you will learn stuff and make friends! Trust.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:36 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
If this were written by Don Rickles, I'd be impressed.
posted by Hennimore at 10:38 PM on November 11, 2013
posted by Hennimore at 10:38 PM on November 11, 2013
If anything were written by Don Rickles I would be impressed. He's a funny fellow.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:39 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by louche mustachio at 10:39 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's not that I am being obtuse, it's that I don't think that what she calls riffing is really riffing.
So we end up arguing about etymology, rather than the actual content of the article. That's being obtuse.
So she's not a perfect writer; that doesn't mean she isn't making an interesting observation about a pretty common type of conversation. Do we really need to get bogged down by her terminology?
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:40 PM on November 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
So we end up arguing about etymology, rather than the actual content of the article. That's being obtuse.
So she's not a perfect writer; that doesn't mean she isn't making an interesting observation about a pretty common type of conversation. Do we really need to get bogged down by her terminology?
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:40 PM on November 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
But what else am I supposed to do when I talk to people at bars?
posted by redsparkler at 10:41 PM on November 11, 2013
posted by redsparkler at 10:41 PM on November 11, 2013
To paraphrase Fight Club, "Really, really listen, instead of just waiting for your turn to speak."
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:46 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:46 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's the way she goes about making the observation. You have to dig through a lot of fresh crap to find the diamond ring that the dog swallowed. Only it's not really a diamond ring, it's a Chuck E Cheese ring that sells for 150 prize tickets. This is pretty much her MO.
posted by Brocktoon at 10:46 PM on November 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 10:46 PM on November 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
So we end up arguing about etymology, rather than the actual content of the article. That's being obtuse.
The problem is that the article is the insular rambling of somebody who expects her readership to be up with every nuance of her own egomania, who thinks the mundane little insights she has are interesting enough on their own to talk about, without any real attempt to make them interesting.
It's a confusing, badly thoughtout article (frex: why the whole introduction about mixtapes; what's the point) because it is, not because readers willfully fail to understand it.
In the end, the content isn't worth trying to understand it because it is so banal: gee, you mean bragging endlessly about records|beer|comics is something that's less interesting when you grow up?
No shit.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:47 PM on November 11, 2013 [21 favorites]
The problem is that the article is the insular rambling of somebody who expects her readership to be up with every nuance of her own egomania, who thinks the mundane little insights she has are interesting enough on their own to talk about, without any real attempt to make them interesting.
It's a confusing, badly thoughtout article (frex: why the whole introduction about mixtapes; what's the point) because it is, not because readers willfully fail to understand it.
In the end, the content isn't worth trying to understand it because it is so banal: gee, you mean bragging endlessly about records|beer|comics is something that's less interesting when you grow up?
No shit.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:47 PM on November 11, 2013 [21 favorites]
But if her terminology is utterly opaque, how else can we come to understand it without discussing it. I have no clear idea what she considers riffing (which is something I'd personally associate with stand-up comedy and/or MST3k). When you're writing, and hoping that other people will read what you have written, it's sort of useful to know that people won't realize you're talking about hamburgers when you talk about them using the regional name, exclusive to your hometown in upstate New York.
posted by Ghidorah at 10:49 PM on November 11, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Ghidorah at 10:49 PM on November 11, 2013 [6 favorites]
Conversational one-upmanship is one thing, but riffing is the act of articulating contours of the topic at hand.
What I get from this is that she's inarticulate. What's worse, she doesn't attempt to describe The Good she'd prefer, only The Bad that she doesn't.
posted by rhizome at 10:57 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
What I get from this is that she's inarticulate. What's worse, she doesn't attempt to describe The Good she'd prefer, only The Bad that she doesn't.
posted by rhizome at 10:57 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Respectfully, OP, please take a step back for a while. Once you post an article here, people are free to discuss it and they may dislike it.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:57 PM on November 11, 2013
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:57 PM on November 11, 2013
No worries.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:58 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 10:58 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Described the way some people in this thread have, I think I understand sort of what she means, and it might just be a case of a term having wider currency than she was aware, which I know I've certainly done before when writing something.
posted by JHarris at 11:11 PM on November 11, 2013
posted by JHarris at 11:11 PM on November 11, 2013
What did I read? The author relating a story of how she was a real dick to her friend Chris, turning around and walking away right in the middle of a conversation about the Sopranos. The whole piece is actually a thinly-veiled justification intended purely for Chris. She actually had to go to the bathroom very badly, was embarrassed about it, and covered it later with a silly lie when she didn't know what to say later. She should just admit it already...her excuse is just digging a way deeper hole. Now she's going to have to spend the next few months sitting out conversations about youtube memes just to maintain credibility. I do not envy her.
posted by Edgewise at 11:16 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Edgewise at 11:16 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Utterly off-topic, but I do totally understand her point about knowing exactly how the conversation would proceed, and dreading being in another conversation. I've been in those situations myself (being in a bar, listening to a teacher who's been in Japan for less than a month, telling me about how they really 'get' Japan), and now I do what I can to avoid them.
Walking away, as she will probably figure out, is not really a socially acceptable form of ending a conversation at a bar that you're not really interested in having. You smile, you nod, you wait for a moment, and then you mention that you need another drink, and maybe a platitude about how you'll come back over later, and then you walk away. It's pretty simple, it saves face, and you get a new drink.
posted by Ghidorah at 11:22 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Walking away, as she will probably figure out, is not really a socially acceptable form of ending a conversation at a bar that you're not really interested in having. You smile, you nod, you wait for a moment, and then you mention that you need another drink, and maybe a platitude about how you'll come back over later, and then you walk away. It's pretty simple, it saves face, and you get a new drink.
posted by Ghidorah at 11:22 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Edgewise: I dunno, it might be worth considering if it meant I didn't have to hear about twerking for a few months.
posted by JHarris at 11:24 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by JHarris at 11:24 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
For a second, I thought this headline was about Michael J. Nelson and got very worried.
posted by ShutterBun at 11:25 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by ShutterBun at 11:25 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
But if her terminology is utterly opaque, how else can we come to understand it without discussing it. I have no clear idea what she considers riffing
And there's the thing, that the article is written exclusively for people who participate in that conversational style. If you know what riffing is, and you riff, then you know what she's talking about. If you don't then it's not for you. Which is kind of funny, considering that she's complaining that riffing is a sort of snobbery, while actually being a bit snobby to people who don't do it.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 11:25 PM on November 11, 2013
And there's the thing, that the article is written exclusively for people who participate in that conversational style. If you know what riffing is, and you riff, then you know what she's talking about. If you don't then it's not for you. Which is kind of funny, considering that she's complaining that riffing is a sort of snobbery, while actually being a bit snobby to people who don't do it.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 11:25 PM on November 11, 2013
Which is kind of funny, considering that she's complaining that riffing is a sort of snobbery, while actually being a bit snobby to people who don't do it.
So the ouroboros is a hypertoroid?
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:32 PM on November 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
So the ouroboros is a hypertoroid?
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:32 PM on November 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
I think what we're saying is that the thing she names riffing seems to be at odds with most common definitions of riffing. It would be similar to writing a comment here on Metafilter about how the missive on the azure seems to have gotten a rather cold reading from the Filterers.* Sure, the words are close, but they have little to do with the words in the common usage.
I remember seeing someone on the blue or the gray correcting a newer member who was using 'FPP' in a non-standard way. It turns out, they hadn't realized what it stood for, and thought it was another way of saying comment. My belief is that she, and her group of friends, have a very different idea of riffing than the more commonly held meaning.
*You have no idea how much my brain hurts after trying to figure out how to write about Metafilter without using any of the phrasing that's become natural on the site.
posted by Ghidorah at 11:34 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
I remember seeing someone on the blue or the gray correcting a newer member who was using 'FPP' in a non-standard way. It turns out, they hadn't realized what it stood for, and thought it was another way of saying comment. My belief is that she, and her group of friends, have a very different idea of riffing than the more commonly held meaning.
*You have no idea how much my brain hurts after trying to figure out how to write about Metafilter without using any of the phrasing that's become natural on the site.
posted by Ghidorah at 11:34 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
"Its first and most important requirement is that there only be a finite number of people who are invested in getting it..."
I'm pretty sure the number of people invested in "getting" this article is not only finite, but countable. Like easily countable.
Don't count me among them.
Am I riffing yet?
posted by mikeand1 at 11:43 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty sure the number of people invested in "getting" this article is not only finite, but countable. Like easily countable.
Don't count me among them.
Am I riffing yet?
posted by mikeand1 at 11:43 PM on November 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Described the way some people in this thread have, I think I understand sort of what she means, and it might just be a case of a term having wider currency than she was aware, which I know I've certainly done before when writing something.
Not just a wider currency but a different definition. What she describes as "riffing" is a kind of cultural one-upsmanship that is a very good thing to be done with - it's petty and insular, a way for the insecure to puff themselves up with their knowledge of assorted ephemera and the depth or breadth of their collection of Important Objects.
It reminds me of the momentt I figured out a way to disarm the Music Snob trap - the one where you are hanging out, and in order to "test" you, they tell you to "put anything on" so they can critique your taste and your choice.
Just pick the worst thing. When they start to rip you for it, point out."It's your record. that you purchased and own."
When I think of riffing, I think of being able to sit next to a farmer or a stevedore or and 85 year old drag queen or someone from halfway around the world or anyone and being able to have a conversation about anything going on around us - being able to bond with someone because we have something in common, we are in a place that makes it possible.
posted by louche mustachio at 11:50 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Not just a wider currency but a different definition. What she describes as "riffing" is a kind of cultural one-upsmanship that is a very good thing to be done with - it's petty and insular, a way for the insecure to puff themselves up with their knowledge of assorted ephemera and the depth or breadth of their collection of Important Objects.
It reminds me of the momentt I figured out a way to disarm the Music Snob trap - the one where you are hanging out, and in order to "test" you, they tell you to "put anything on" so they can critique your taste and your choice.
Just pick the worst thing. When they start to rip you for it, point out."It's your record. that you purchased and own."
When I think of riffing, I think of being able to sit next to a farmer or a stevedore or and 85 year old drag queen or someone from halfway around the world or anyone and being able to have a conversation about anything going on around us - being able to bond with someone because we have something in common, we are in a place that makes it possible.
posted by louche mustachio at 11:50 PM on November 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think what we're saying is that the thing she names riffing seems to be at odds with most common definitions of riffing.
Yes! I even tried to search for a definition to help clarify it and only found the standard usages, even at Urban Dictionary.
That, combined with the stream-of-consciousness style of writing, kept me looking for the page of the article that was missing.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:52 PM on November 11, 2013
Yes! I even tried to search for a definition to help clarify it and only found the standard usages, even at Urban Dictionary.
That, combined with the stream-of-consciousness style of writing, kept me looking for the page of the article that was missing.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:52 PM on November 11, 2013
But what else am I supposed to do when I talk to people at bars?
The farmer, the stevedore, the drag queen - all totally people I sat next to at bars and bought drinks for.
posted by louche mustachio at 11:53 PM on November 11, 2013
The farmer, the stevedore, the drag queen - all totally people I sat next to at bars and bought drinks for.
posted by louche mustachio at 11:53 PM on November 11, 2013
A perfect, infinite spiral of verbal masturbation accompanied by illustrated vomit. A perfect metaphor for all that is Vice.
posted by mutesolo at 11:53 PM on November 11, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by mutesolo at 11:53 PM on November 11, 2013 [7 favorites]
I volunteer to sit next to louche mustachio next. I hear the free drinks are awesome.
posted by Ghidorah at 11:54 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Ghidorah at 11:54 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
I too thought the graphic was hilariously appropriate.
Who is the author hanging around with anyway? Not the same people I do, apparently. Am I too old now?
I like having meaningful conversations with interesting people. If someone in my company is witty and erudite, all the better. Am I missing something?
posted by mikeand1 at 11:57 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Who is the author hanging around with anyway? Not the same people I do, apparently. Am I too old now?
I like having meaningful conversations with interesting people. If someone in my company is witty and erudite, all the better. Am I missing something?
posted by mikeand1 at 11:57 PM on November 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
I will buy you a drink Ghidorah - if only because that means I made it to Japan YAY
posted by louche mustachio at 12:02 AM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by louche mustachio at 12:02 AM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
I attempted to read this once, gave up, and came back to it after reading the comments here - mostly to prove to myself that I wasn't being obtuse when I rolled my eyes the first time.
I do agree with her point, which I take to be that when the only allowable form of conversation in a group is competitive joking about pop-cultural references, other functions of conversation (such as forming closer personal relationships) are impeded. I've had friendships like that and found it tiring and frustrating. It's alienating, too, for someone like me who doesn't keep up well with certain aspects of pop culture and is not inclined to memorising chunks of dialogue or lyrics. On the other hand, quitting this kind of conversation forrrrrevah is a bit over the top.
I also agree that this piece was not well-written. Okay for your LiveJournal, not so much for a forum where you expect it to be read by the world in general. Then again, this was published by Vice, presumably also in the print version? From my teenage glossy magazine reading (in that all-too-brief period when I had a part-time job and no real expenses!), I remember a lot of opinion pieces like this, that seemed to pick up in media res, full of in-group references that had to be teased out, and comically overwritten. It's a style that, I guess, is supposed to demonstrate a certain cool. And yeah, it feels very related to this kind of riffing. The writer might find she has further to go than she thought if she wants to stick to her resolution.
posted by daisyk at 12:06 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I do agree with her point, which I take to be that when the only allowable form of conversation in a group is competitive joking about pop-cultural references, other functions of conversation (such as forming closer personal relationships) are impeded. I've had friendships like that and found it tiring and frustrating. It's alienating, too, for someone like me who doesn't keep up well with certain aspects of pop culture and is not inclined to memorising chunks of dialogue or lyrics. On the other hand, quitting this kind of conversation forrrrrevah is a bit over the top.
I also agree that this piece was not well-written. Okay for your LiveJournal, not so much for a forum where you expect it to be read by the world in general. Then again, this was published by Vice, presumably also in the print version? From my teenage glossy magazine reading (in that all-too-brief period when I had a part-time job and no real expenses!), I remember a lot of opinion pieces like this, that seemed to pick up in media res, full of in-group references that had to be teased out, and comically overwritten. It's a style that, I guess, is supposed to demonstrate a certain cool. And yeah, it feels very related to this kind of riffing. The writer might find she has further to go than she thought if she wants to stick to her resolution.
posted by daisyk at 12:06 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
In talking about a similar thing with a coworker, I was reminded of a night in college. My friends and I almost always ate dinner together. We watched the same shows, the same movies, and we quoted constantly. It wasn't uncommon to go for ten to fifteen minutes of pretty high paced talking without using any original speech.
One night, another friend, not a member of our little circle, but known to all of us sat down with us. She was one of the more brilliant people I've ever known, both in the philosophy classes we shared and in the poetry writing courses (the beauty of what she wrote helped me realize how gimmicky and artless my own writing was). After about ten minutes, she turned to me and said, "I haven't understood a single thing you guys have said."
At the time, I thought it was awesome, some sort of triumph. Now I'm just sort of sad about how clueless I was.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:30 AM on November 12, 2013 [9 favorites]
One night, another friend, not a member of our little circle, but known to all of us sat down with us. She was one of the more brilliant people I've ever known, both in the philosophy classes we shared and in the poetry writing courses (the beauty of what she wrote helped me realize how gimmicky and artless my own writing was). After about ten minutes, she turned to me and said, "I haven't understood a single thing you guys have said."
At the time, I thought it was awesome, some sort of triumph. Now I'm just sort of sad about how clueless I was.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:30 AM on November 12, 2013 [9 favorites]
I don't look down at others anymore. It's beneath me.
posted by ShutterBun at 12:31 AM on November 12, 2013 [11 favorites]
posted by ShutterBun at 12:31 AM on November 12, 2013 [11 favorites]
I do agree with her point, which I take to be that when the only allowable form of conversation in a group is competitive joking about pop-cultural references, other functions of conversation (such as forming closer personal relationships) are impeded. I've had friendships like that and found it tiring and frustrating. It's alienating, too, for someone like me who doesn't keep up well with certain aspects of pop culture and is not inclined to memorising chunks of dialogue or lyrics. On the other hand, quitting this kind of conversation forrrrrevah is a bit over the top.
What cured me of what *I think* she's saying riffing is, was when I was in econ class a couple months ago and the professor was talking about agricultural subsidies and where the "extra" agricultural product goes. I turned to the girl beside me and was like, duh, government cheese.
I've never had a joke fall so flat in my life. That girl was completely confused. When I told my close friend about it later to ask if I had been being weird, she got this disgusted look on her face.
Well, anyway, since then, I haven't really stopped making random, often dated, pop culture references because I'm not going to let my entire life of sitting around soaking in pop culture go to waste...but I do try not to talk to anybody in that class anymore.
posted by rue72 at 12:56 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
What cured me of what *I think* she's saying riffing is, was when I was in econ class a couple months ago and the professor was talking about agricultural subsidies and where the "extra" agricultural product goes. I turned to the girl beside me and was like, duh, government cheese.
I've never had a joke fall so flat in my life. That girl was completely confused. When I told my close friend about it later to ask if I had been being weird, she got this disgusted look on her face.
Well, anyway, since then, I haven't really stopped making random, often dated, pop culture references because I'm not going to let my entire life of sitting around soaking in pop culture go to waste...but I do try not to talk to anybody in that class anymore.
posted by rue72 at 12:56 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who had no idea what the what was.
I read the fucking article twice *cringe.*
And what was for me missing was a definition, either implicit or directly stated, of the term 'riffing' as she is using it.
Absent that, I didn't know which way was up. I didn't mind so much until I realized I wasn't going to get some kind of coalescing of all the various themes and then I was a little less thrilled. And read it again.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:49 AM on November 12, 2013
I read the fucking article twice *cringe.*
And what was for me missing was a definition, either implicit or directly stated, of the term 'riffing' as she is using it.
Absent that, I didn't know which way was up. I didn't mind so much until I realized I wasn't going to get some kind of coalescing of all the various themes and then I was a little less thrilled. And read it again.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:49 AM on November 12, 2013
"Riffing has a real purpose. Yes, it’s fun to have the best joke; it’s fun to be joke-bested, unless your ego is disgusting"
This has to be at least part of the problem; when you're trading jokes with friends, what kind of weirdo keeps score enough to even know if they had the best joke?
posted by juv3nal at 2:14 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
This has to be at least part of the problem; when you're trading jokes with friends, what kind of weirdo keeps score enough to even know if they had the best joke?
posted by juv3nal at 2:14 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
There's a lot of riffing on metafilter. You know, joke building on joke, often involving pop culture references or inside jargon. The funniest ones get the most favourites.
I like reading those threads, but it does feel somewhat competitive abd I could never compete (lack of pop culture know how and also, I am not funny in mefi terms. I like to think other social groups find me more amusing but my humour falls flat here.)
Whatever, I'm not bothered and enjoy watching the cleverness unfold. But I can see how if most of your interactions go that way you might long for more sincerity and less riffing.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:41 AM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
I like reading those threads, but it does feel somewhat competitive abd I could never compete (lack of pop culture know how and also, I am not funny in mefi terms. I like to think other social groups find me more amusing but my humour falls flat here.)
Whatever, I'm not bothered and enjoy watching the cleverness unfold. But I can see how if most of your interactions go that way you might long for more sincerity and less riffing.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:41 AM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Sorry, but it's really awful writing.
True, as evidenced by the many comments here from people who don't understand what she's trying to say. I gave up after the early paragraph where she pretended to tell us what "riffing" is, without actually doing it.
I guess she was tired of participating in some kind of conversational style, and decided to be rude to someone who expected to have a conversation in that style. I cannot imagine why I'd want to read all those words swirling around that situation.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:11 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
True, as evidenced by the many comments here from people who don't understand what she's trying to say. I gave up after the early paragraph where she pretended to tell us what "riffing" is, without actually doing it.
I guess she was tired of participating in some kind of conversational style, and decided to be rude to someone who expected to have a conversation in that style. I cannot imagine why I'd want to read all those words swirling around that situation.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:11 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Pretty sure Metafilter is like nine tenths riffing.
I've been meaning to talk to you about the one-tenth you apparently think is 'perspiration.'
posted by griphus at 4:23 AM on November 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
I've been meaning to talk to you about the one-tenth you apparently think is 'perspiration.'
posted by griphus at 4:23 AM on November 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
The article was horribly written. It took reading this three to figure out what she meant.
Yes, to be always riffing is exhausting and annoying. But being able to slip into a riff with one or several people and know when to quit can fun and a good bonding experience.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:37 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, to be always riffing is exhausting and annoying. But being able to slip into a riff with one or several people and know when to quit can fun and a good bonding experience.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:37 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Setting aside the author's idiosyncratic defintion of "riffing", I'm intrigued at the way the style of this piece seems to work against its message. Of course it's possible that Kate Carraway just naturally talks like this, and maybe even that enough other people do to make it a sensible way to try to communicate. But the general sense I get is of a sort of "how low can you go", more-casual-than-thou, stylistic one-upmanship – an attempt to outstrip all others in her willingness to embrace informality and lack of organization. Then I wondered if maybe this contrast between her message and her prose was deliberate and I became even more confused.
posted by oliverburkeman at 4:46 AM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by oliverburkeman at 4:46 AM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
My friends who are women never do this, but certain dudes in the company of each other (especially the insecure ones), my God. I can't think of any girlfriend I have who has ever talked like this with me. But the dudes, holy crap.
You just have to sit politely through it. It makes me feel sorry to watch it. The last guy I dated once had to make a point about how well he spoke Spanish when we went out with my friends once (first time meeting them and I never heard him speak any---but my longtime ex once spent like a week in Argentina (years after his 3 years of hs Spanish classes) and would not stop practicing his Spanish on Chipotle staff and telling stories of how he used his Spanish here and there. The funny part was that he was self aware enough to try to say it really casually and slip it in very casually.
But the attempts by that last guy I dated also tried it with me all of the time, trying to tell me who he thought I should think of him as (hint: beautiful women can't stop throwing themselves at him and he has mad game haha). It was a little hard not to feel a mix of amused and genuine pity for him and just patiently sit through it. It was a little entertaining though. And so weird that he felt the need to do that.
posted by discopolo at 5:26 AM on November 12, 2013
You just have to sit politely through it. It makes me feel sorry to watch it. The last guy I dated once had to make a point about how well he spoke Spanish when we went out with my friends once (first time meeting them and I never heard him speak any---but my longtime ex once spent like a week in Argentina (years after his 3 years of hs Spanish classes) and would not stop practicing his Spanish on Chipotle staff and telling stories of how he used his Spanish here and there. The funny part was that he was self aware enough to try to say it really casually and slip it in very casually.
But the attempts by that last guy I dated also tried it with me all of the time, trying to tell me who he thought I should think of him as (hint: beautiful women can't stop throwing themselves at him and he has mad game haha). It was a little hard not to feel a mix of amused and genuine pity for him and just patiently sit through it. It was a little entertaining though. And so weird that he felt the need to do that.
posted by discopolo at 5:26 AM on November 12, 2013
It's cute watching the internet slowly, sheepishly, grow up.
And for fuck sake people, she's talking about snark.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 5:26 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
And for fuck sake people, she's talking about snark.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 5:26 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
In popular music, a "riff" is a kind of repeated figuration over which the melody is laid or improvisation is performed. The most common term from the Western classical tradition would be "ostinado." When one is "riffing," however, the implication is that you're kind of noodling around repetitively rather than just repeating the riff, making little variations on the musical idea of the original riff but not really changing anything substantively. This idea of noodling around with something without really changing it much can then be applied to other forms, e.g., "I was riffing on the Sidecar, subbing in different modifiers for the Cointreau"). I assume that the author's application of this word to conversational habits means that the speakers are talking on and on around a certain topic area, making minor variations and little quips, but effectively noodling around without contributing anything of substance.
posted by slkinsey at 5:32 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by slkinsey at 5:32 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
This used to be called "quips" and has been around as long as popular culture has. And it sounds like the author is growing up.
It's about participation, and the choice thereof.
Sort of like how I'm participating right now. As in, not very much.
Now, the article about the dismissive old timers who remember something you don't.
posted by clvrmnky at 5:47 AM on November 12, 2013
It's about participation, and the choice thereof.
Sort of like how I'm participating right now. As in, not very much.
Now, the article about the dismissive old timers who remember something you don't.
posted by clvrmnky at 5:47 AM on November 12, 2013
Yeah, I still am not entirely sure what she means. Maybe this whole article was meant to act as Rorschach Test of sorts, allowing the reader to place his/her own definition of Something They Hate onto the unrelated word "riffing"?
By my count, in this thread, we have at least five explanations for what she means. They're related, but they're not the same. She might mean gentle ribbing of the flirtatious type, she might mean the one-upsmanship of snobs, she might mean talking about ephemera, she might mean referential conversations, she might mean snark.
The fact that we can't agree at all on what exactly she's talking about at a basic level is a sign that this isn't a very good piece.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:48 AM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
By my count, in this thread, we have at least five explanations for what she means. They're related, but they're not the same. She might mean gentle ribbing of the flirtatious type, she might mean the one-upsmanship of snobs, she might mean talking about ephemera, she might mean referential conversations, she might mean snark.
The fact that we can't agree at all on what exactly she's talking about at a basic level is a sign that this isn't a very good piece.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:48 AM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
I was SO worried that this article was going to be about Mike Nelson, Kevin Murphy and Bill Corbett breaking up the RiffTrax crew. So soon after the retirement of Cinematic Titanic, my heart just could NOT take it.
Thankfully, it's about something that I don't care about.
posted by John Kennedy Toole Box at 5:51 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Thankfully, it's about something that I don't care about.
posted by John Kennedy Toole Box at 5:51 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ahh, the joys of one set of people who like certain things ripping on another set of people who like different things. May we be treated to a thousand of these terrible j-school articles, morning, noon and night.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:57 AM on November 12, 2013
posted by Ironmouth at 5:57 AM on November 12, 2013
And for fuck sake people, she's talking about snark.
Yes. She's calling it riffing, but it's actually a way to avoid the stigma of her snark.
I have a friend I can't even relate to anymore because of snark/riffing. She wants to dump on everything, as if there is something awful about every single subject we talk about just because it doesn't meet her standards of cool. My god, the world has some positives, too. Not everything is shit. I attribute this tendency to the fact that she moved away from our small city to live as a hipster in New York. Maybe it's not the city's fault, but it's gotten worse since she left.
Back here, we "riff" to make each other laugh. It's a good thing.
Also, this: Four Yorkshiremen
posted by GrapeApiary at 5:58 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yes. She's calling it riffing, but it's actually a way to avoid the stigma of her snark.
I have a friend I can't even relate to anymore because of snark/riffing. She wants to dump on everything, as if there is something awful about every single subject we talk about just because it doesn't meet her standards of cool. My god, the world has some positives, too. Not everything is shit. I attribute this tendency to the fact that she moved away from our small city to live as a hipster in New York. Maybe it's not the city's fault, but it's gotten worse since she left.
Back here, we "riff" to make each other laugh. It's a good thing.
Also, this: Four Yorkshiremen
posted by GrapeApiary at 5:58 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think I get what she's talking about: conversations which are not meant to delve into your conversational partner's actual beliefs, but instead are simple vehicles for jokes, 'witty' or 'wry' observations, and generally just excuses to make yourself seem funny and smart.
In comedy circles isn't "riffing on" a particular topic just "talking about" it, but in a deliberately comic way? I assume she's using the comedic definition.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:13 AM on November 12, 2013
In comedy circles isn't "riffing on" a particular topic just "talking about" it, but in a deliberately comic way? I assume she's using the comedic definition.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:13 AM on November 12, 2013
my uneven smile-dimples collapsing
This would be better with embedded sound effects BEEEEEOOOOOOooooooooooop
posted by dosterm at 6:17 AM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
This would be better with embedded sound effects BEEEEEOOOOOOooooooooooop
posted by dosterm at 6:17 AM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
My interpretation is that she defines "riffing" as an ongoing game of oneupsmanship in two categories: snarky comebacks and demonstrating how hip and in-the-know you are. The "your favorite band sucks"/"you've probably never heard of it" type of conversation. And she's right; that's a cheap, shallow way to engage with others. I've just never heard of it being called "riffing."
In my mind, "riffing" in the conversational sense means just sort of talking about the same thing without really having a point, or having a series of smaller points rather than one main one. Similar to "rambling" or "blathering," but maybe a little more deliberate.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:32 AM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
In my mind, "riffing" in the conversational sense means just sort of talking about the same thing without really having a point, or having a series of smaller points rather than one main one. Similar to "rambling" or "blathering," but maybe a little more deliberate.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:32 AM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Utterly off-topic, but I do totally understand her point about knowing exactly how the conversation would proceed, and dreading being in another conversation.
I don't think that's off-topic at all. She's focusing on one particular conversational form, but her real problem is with getting locked into that one form and eventually discovering the strict structure of it an impediment to connection and enjoyment.
The same thing can happen when you realize you are locked into a particular conversational form (like the work/kids/hobbies sequence that you go through with the random person you are stuck talking to at a dinner, say) and where there is either no genuine spark and connection between the people, or, as in her case, such a focus on the rules of the conversational form that surprise and connections are avoided.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:35 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't think that's off-topic at all. She's focusing on one particular conversational form, but her real problem is with getting locked into that one form and eventually discovering the strict structure of it an impediment to connection and enjoyment.
The same thing can happen when you realize you are locked into a particular conversational form (like the work/kids/hobbies sequence that you go through with the random person you are stuck talking to at a dinner, say) and where there is either no genuine spark and connection between the people, or, as in her case, such a focus on the rules of the conversational form that surprise and connections are avoided.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:35 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
So this is a florid in-joke-laden masturbatory one-uppy self-aggrandizing article about how she stopped engaging in florid in-joke-laden masturbatory one-uppy self-aggrandizing speech two years ago?
Okay then
posted by ook at 6:51 AM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
Okay then
posted by ook at 6:51 AM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure I ever had the setup she is referring to; it's been either "fuck having friends, I'll be a hermit" or "this group of friends is so different from each other that the real challenge is finding things that we can talk about besides work/kids/weather/pets that also doesn't lead to some sort of political or religious fight."
Maybe I use Metafilter as my snarky in-group. With the advantage that it's possible to lurk forever and learn all the jokes before you ever have to participate.
posted by emjaybee at 7:04 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe I use Metafilter as my snarky in-group. With the advantage that it's possible to lurk forever and learn all the jokes before you ever have to participate.
posted by emjaybee at 7:04 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
A friend of mine was recently in town visiting and I spent time with said friend and some of said friend's heartmates. They were all beautiful, witty, and spent hours upon hours engaging in what Carraway identifies as riffing, a kind of heartless game of taking turns saying very clever things at breakneck pace in ways that deflect any attempts to get to know the speaker personally.
I still love said friend and enjoyed the company of said friend's heartmates. But given the limited amount of time we would spend together, I was hoping for just a little more depth. Thinking of said friend, I posted the following to Facebook.
Plus, the Facebook thumbnail was a cartoon of a woman vomiting upon her interlocutor.
posted by mistersquid at 7:04 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I still love said friend and enjoyed the company of said friend's heartmates. But given the limited amount of time we would spend together, I was hoping for just a little more depth. Thinking of said friend, I posted the following to Facebook.
Some of the most engaging and ferociously intelligent people I know have conversations which Kate Carraway identifies as "riffing". While Carraway's article is a bit overwrought, her decision to leave riffing behind is one I wish more people would follow.I deleted the post after a few minutes because I was being passive aggressive rather than directly addressing said friend or, even better, engaging said friend in a more intimate conversation.
I enjoy listening to the occasional riff session, especially when the riffing is done by gifted conversationalists. But in the end, I want to get to know people better, and riffing is not a path toward that.
Plus, the Facebook thumbnail was a cartoon of a woman vomiting upon her interlocutor.
posted by mistersquid at 7:04 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
The moment was so whole and complete that I might as well have been framed there in the room by two vectors of fading green-orange sunlight, that day’s and my dumb youth’s martini shot
The moment was so whole and complete that I might as well have been composed in the left third of a glass-and-chrome Nagel serigraph, that day's and my dumb bachelorhood's cosmopolitan oversweetened
The moment was so whole and complete that I might as well have been reclining athwart two exhausted caryatids, that day's and my dumb childhood's posture wrecked
The moment was so whole and complete that I might as well have been sipping yesterday's cold coffee in my underwear, that day's and my dumb infancy's elastic irretrievably bagged-out
The moment
It was whole and complete
whole
and complete
posted by ook at 7:15 AM on November 12, 2013 [16 favorites]
The moment was so whole and complete that I might as well have been composed in the left third of a glass-and-chrome Nagel serigraph, that day's and my dumb bachelorhood's cosmopolitan oversweetened
The moment was so whole and complete that I might as well have been reclining athwart two exhausted caryatids, that day's and my dumb childhood's posture wrecked
The moment was so whole and complete that I might as well have been sipping yesterday's cold coffee in my underwear, that day's and my dumb infancy's elastic irretrievably bagged-out
The moment
It was whole and complete
whole
and complete
posted by ook at 7:15 AM on November 12, 2013 [16 favorites]
It's always embarrassing when someone finally has insight into one of their own character flaws, but then assumes that everyone has that character flaw, and ascribes the failings in their own thoughts and motives to everyone else, and then publishes an essay based on that assumption, thinking they're exposing the underbelly of the world when all they've exposed is themselves.
posted by straight at 7:36 AM on November 12, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by straight at 7:36 AM on November 12, 2013 [14 favorites]
I think the vomit graphic is pretty great!! This article was annoying for the same reason the Vice documentaries are annoying- the main theme in each and every one is the "coolness" of the author or host. (Having said that, I really like their documentaries. They're not great journalism but they're often VERY interesting. And all on Youtube).
posted by beau jackson at 7:53 AM on November 12, 2013
posted by beau jackson at 7:53 AM on November 12, 2013
The amount of clarity that would come from a simple example of a "riffing" conversation is so obvious that I can't help but think that it was omitted on purpose. I imagine that this is a poor stylistic choice that the author will one day have some sort of realization about and walk away from, never to do again.
posted by billyfleetwood at 7:59 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by billyfleetwood at 7:59 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
Next week Kate Carraway will be humblebragging about how she learned to knuckle down and create Lasting Journalistic Insight by realizing other writers at Vice do this same loose change style of writing, and decided to no longer participate in such demeaning behavior.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 8:08 AM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 8:08 AM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
If anything were written by Don Rickles I would be impressed. He's a funny fellow.
Best comment on Metafilter ever.
posted by josher71 at 8:27 AM on November 12, 2013
Best comment on Metafilter ever.
posted by josher71 at 8:27 AM on November 12, 2013
I don't think this is about the "your favorite band sucks" conversation or even the "you probably haven't heard of my favorite band" conversation. (To be honest, I think both of those conversations exist much more in the imaginations of people complaining about hipsters than in the real world.) Rather, about it's the kind of interesting conversation with an interesting person where you can't just say that you like something or that you dislike something and why, because that's boring. You have to make a witty but incisive remark that captures both what you like and what you dislike about it through a clever metaphor. Or a self-deprecating remark that shows that you are sophisticated enough to understand exactly what other people think is bad about it, but you're willing to say you like it anyway, because you're that independent-minded. And so on, and so forth. What you say always has to have some content, but it also has to be at least half witticism, and it has to be over quickly. You can't stop and think about what you want to say, because that would mean that your scintillating brain isn't just throwing off these clever but interesting remarks as sparks of its own brilliance, which I think is the intended effect.
That kind of conversation isn't all bad -- it's a fun way to get to know strangers, and it can be interesting to listen to. But the basic problem with it is that it indicates that you don't trust the people you're talking to to find your opinions interesting in themselves -- instead, you feel like you have to stuff everything you say full of interestingness for it to be worth listening to. So it's kind of a shame if that's the main way you interact with your friends, because shouldn't you be able to to trust that your friends find your opinions interesting in themselves because they find you interesting and want to know what you think?
posted by ostro at 8:29 AM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
That kind of conversation isn't all bad -- it's a fun way to get to know strangers, and it can be interesting to listen to. But the basic problem with it is that it indicates that you don't trust the people you're talking to to find your opinions interesting in themselves -- instead, you feel like you have to stuff everything you say full of interestingness for it to be worth listening to. So it's kind of a shame if that's the main way you interact with your friends, because shouldn't you be able to to trust that your friends find your opinions interesting in themselves because they find you interesting and want to know what you think?
posted by ostro at 8:29 AM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
That kind of conversation isn't all bad -- it's a fun way to get to know strangers, and it can be interesting to listen to. But the basic problem with it is that it indicates that you don't trust the people you're talking to to find your opinions interesting in themselves -- instead, you feel like you have to stuff everything you say full of interestingness for it to be worth listening to. So it's kind of a shame if that's the main way you interact with your friends, because shouldn't you be able to to trust that your friends find your opinions interesting in themselves because they find you interesting and want to know what you think?
I don't know. I mean, I don't want to bore my friends. I don't want them to bore me. I WANT to stuff what I'm saying full of interestingness that's beyond it being interesting because I'm saying it. I don't know if it's the main way I interact with friends but it's definitely an important and joyful way.
posted by josher71 at 8:32 AM on November 12, 2013
I don't know. I mean, I don't want to bore my friends. I don't want them to bore me. I WANT to stuff what I'm saying full of interestingness that's beyond it being interesting because I'm saying it. I don't know if it's the main way I interact with friends but it's definitely an important and joyful way.
posted by josher71 at 8:32 AM on November 12, 2013
There's a difference between "being genuinely interesting" and "throwing up an elaborate wall of wit to both show off your cred and protect your fragile ego" though.
There are people I've known for years, and I couldn't tell you their sincere and heartfelt opinion about anything. It's so shrouded in conversational dazzle camouflage that it disappears completely.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:42 AM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
There are people I've known for years, and I couldn't tell you their sincere and heartfelt opinion about anything. It's so shrouded in conversational dazzle camouflage that it disappears completely.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:42 AM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
There are people I've known for years, and I couldn't tell you their sincere and heartfelt opinion about anything. It's so shrouded in conversational dazzle camouflage that it disappears completely.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:42 AM on November 12
This x 100.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 8:48 AM on November 12, 2013
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:42 AM on November 12
This x 100.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 8:48 AM on November 12, 2013
The only point of that thing was to introduce me to Wugazi.
posted by Renoroc at 8:50 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Renoroc at 8:50 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think the key to unlocking her hidden or maybe poorly articulated meaning is her use of the expression "mutual masturbation." She also talks about one-upsmanship and competition, which is where I think people are getting confused. What she means is a conversation that's like friendly sparring for the sake of giving you and any interlocutors little verbal pats on the back, and this is reinforced by the special language you use with each other, which is not understood very well by outsiders. It's like we know about this special thing, let's give each other affirmation through friendly competition. The tweet quoted at the end is helpful, too. She's matured beyond this conversational style where peers are boosting each others' confidence.
She also says riffing is more about suggestions than statements. So, this piece is kind of impressionistic, though I agree that while reading it I thought "What the heck is she talking about?"
posted by ChuckRamone at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2013
She also says riffing is more about suggestions than statements. So, this piece is kind of impressionistic, though I agree that while reading it I thought "What the heck is she talking about?"
posted by ChuckRamone at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2013
Riffing is fun! It's conversational play. I like riffing with friends but it's also a really fun way to get to know people.
I don't recognize what the author seems to be describing as riffing, though. It seems like she's talking about one-upmanship or complete pretentiousness but she conflates that with riffing, which she describes perplexingly as:
the small talk of anyone who, at some point in their adolescence, learned how to throw dice about their thing, whatever that may be, music or movies or whatever, instead of having regular conversations
I don't understand what she thinks "regular" conversations are. But I also don't understand what "throw dice about your thing" is supposed to mean. I always thought of riffing as something more like participating in a mutual and half-playful, half-serious creative endeavor which can produce insights, or funny poetry, or jokes, stuff like that. The main thing is that it's a cooperative effort, but is not work, and it's fun without lacking a certain kind of subdued seriousness because of a shared interest in the domain of the topic.
It's hard to avoid the impression that this article is basically inside baseball, that despite her protestations it's really only for people who are already within her tiny social scene, and that it's a sort of petulant way for her to say "I quit you awful people and your awful ways of talking about things!". But maybe I'm wrong about that.
posted by clockzero at 9:40 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
I don't recognize what the author seems to be describing as riffing, though. It seems like she's talking about one-upmanship or complete pretentiousness but she conflates that with riffing, which she describes perplexingly as:
the small talk of anyone who, at some point in their adolescence, learned how to throw dice about their thing, whatever that may be, music or movies or whatever, instead of having regular conversations
I don't understand what she thinks "regular" conversations are. But I also don't understand what "throw dice about your thing" is supposed to mean. I always thought of riffing as something more like participating in a mutual and half-playful, half-serious creative endeavor which can produce insights, or funny poetry, or jokes, stuff like that. The main thing is that it's a cooperative effort, but is not work, and it's fun without lacking a certain kind of subdued seriousness because of a shared interest in the domain of the topic.
It's hard to avoid the impression that this article is basically inside baseball, that despite her protestations it's really only for people who are already within her tiny social scene, and that it's a sort of petulant way for her to say "I quit you awful people and your awful ways of talking about things!". But maybe I'm wrong about that.
posted by clockzero at 9:40 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
It also occurs to me that because of how she defines riffing in life-course terms, this article is actually a "what the hell is wrong with my generation" screed in heavy disguise.
posted by clockzero at 9:42 AM on November 12, 2013
posted by clockzero at 9:42 AM on November 12, 2013
There are people I've known for years, and I couldn't tell you their sincere and heartfelt opinion about anything. It's so shrouded in conversational dazzle camouflage that it disappears completely.
That's only a problem if there's no one in their life that doesn't feel that way. And even then, it's their problem, not yours. Not every friend has to be a heart-to-heart friend. It's OK to have some people in your life that you just have friendly banter with. No one owes you a guided tour of their inner life.
posted by straight at 10:07 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
That's only a problem if there's no one in their life that doesn't feel that way. And even then, it's their problem, not yours. Not every friend has to be a heart-to-heart friend. It's OK to have some people in your life that you just have friendly banter with. No one owes you a guided tour of their inner life.
posted by straight at 10:07 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well there's good fun playful riffing with pals and then there's competitive, last-word, dick-measuring riffing. A careful contextual assessment revealed that she's talking about the latter sort.
I liked this piece. It reminded me of things I used to do, and a little of why I used to do them; how I thought I was so secure, but felt compelled to get into these petty contests about the drummer from Drive Like Jehu.
And the closing quote really says it all:
I liked this piece. It reminded me of things I used to do, and a little of why I used to do them; how I thought I was so secure, but felt compelled to get into these petty contests about the drummer from Drive Like Jehu.
And the closing quote really says it all:
For a long time as a younger person I mistook conversations for pop quizzes about my knowledge of various topics.posted by Mister_A at 10:20 AM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
-Emily Gould
It's OK to have some people in your life that you just have friendly banter with.
Yeah, absolutely this. From years upon years of hanging out with weird, sketchy, occasionally straight-up dangerous people, I've learned that you can have a great time with someone (even over the course of years) and simultaneously spend those years maintaining personal boundaries that are the equivalent of a moat full of alligators.
posted by griphus at 10:20 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yeah, absolutely this. From years upon years of hanging out with weird, sketchy, occasionally straight-up dangerous people, I've learned that you can have a great time with someone (even over the course of years) and simultaneously spend those years maintaining personal boundaries that are the equivalent of a moat full of alligators.
posted by griphus at 10:20 AM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
I have found that, with a small and not-outlandish amount of effort, it's easy to not be this sort of person.
1. Remove "That's nothing" from my conversational vocabulary. Pooping on someone else's anecdote is rude.
2. Just because I know a story that is related to and funnier than the one I just heard does not mean I have to tell it. Someone just told a funny story. It killed. Everyone's laughing. Just enjoy the moment.
posted by DWRoelands at 11:27 AM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
1. Remove "That's nothing" from my conversational vocabulary. Pooping on someone else's anecdote is rude.
2. Just because I know a story that is related to and funnier than the one I just heard does not mean I have to tell it. Someone just told a funny story. It killed. Everyone's laughing. Just enjoy the moment.
posted by DWRoelands at 11:27 AM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
I too am confused about just what this piece is about, since there's very little overlap between my idea of what riffing is and the apparently numerous possibilities for what the author means by it.
In any case, I've always thought of it as something like trading jokey one-liners, often with some shared imagined context, like when I see my friend who works at the coffee shop and she pantomimes over-the-top frustration and I pantomime being an asshole customer. In that sense, riffing can be just as much about collaboration as it is about competition, depending on how you approach it.
posted by invitapriore at 11:37 AM on November 12, 2013
In any case, I've always thought of it as something like trading jokey one-liners, often with some shared imagined context, like when I see my friend who works at the coffee shop and she pantomimes over-the-top frustration and I pantomime being an asshole customer. In that sense, riffing can be just as much about collaboration as it is about competition, depending on how you approach it.
posted by invitapriore at 11:37 AM on November 12, 2013
It's always embarrassing when someone finally has insight into one of their own character flaws, but then assumes that everyone has that character flaw, and ascribes the failings in their own thoughts and motives to everyone else, and then publishes an essay based on that assumption, thinking they're exposing the underbelly of the world when all they've exposed is themselves.
Aside from the publishing part, I think this is called "your 20’s". And then one day you realize that when you’re sharing all your amazing insights with other people they’re not smiling and nodding because they’re so enraptured by this new idea. Or maybe that was just me.
posted by bongo_x at 11:40 AM on November 12, 2013
Aside from the publishing part, I think this is called "your 20’s". And then one day you realize that when you’re sharing all your amazing insights with other people they’re not smiling and nodding because they’re so enraptured by this new idea. Or maybe that was just me.
posted by bongo_x at 11:40 AM on November 12, 2013
Count me among the thoroughly confused, because at this point I'm not sure that riffing is even a definable thing, but might instead be some kind of Tao-like anti-concept. The riff that can be named is not the true riff.
posted by Pyry at 12:35 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Pyry at 12:35 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
Well there's good fun playful riffing with pals and then there's competitive, last-word, dick-measuring riffing. A careful contextual assessment revealed that she's talking about the latter sort.
I think the point being made here is that there's no good reason to use "riff" to describe the latter activity, since the familiar meaning of the term has a connotation which is at odds with what she's actually talking about. That latter thing definitely happens, but it's not riffing. I don't think anyone uses the word that way outside of this Vice post. Reading it is like listening to someone try to explain a concept they don't actually understand.
Her article's point or argument is akin to saying "I am SO DONE with friendship, which is a kind of relationship where people are jerks to each other" and then expecting readers to understand that she's only actually against people being jerks and "friendship" was just an arbitrary way of expressing that. It's a way of talking about a real thing that unnecessarily confuses the issue, or so it seems.
posted by clockzero at 12:55 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think the point being made here is that there's no good reason to use "riff" to describe the latter activity, since the familiar meaning of the term has a connotation which is at odds with what she's actually talking about. That latter thing definitely happens, but it's not riffing. I don't think anyone uses the word that way outside of this Vice post. Reading it is like listening to someone try to explain a concept they don't actually understand.
Her article's point or argument is akin to saying "I am SO DONE with friendship, which is a kind of relationship where people are jerks to each other" and then expecting readers to understand that she's only actually against people being jerks and "friendship" was just an arbitrary way of expressing that. It's a way of talking about a real thing that unnecessarily confuses the issue, or so it seems.
posted by clockzero at 12:55 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
So she wrote a riff about how she doesn't riff anymore? Because she's too deep for that boy stuff now? Cute.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:07 PM on November 11
So this is a florid in-joke-laden masturbatory one-uppy self-aggrandizing article about how she stopped engaging in florid in-joke-laden masturbatory one-uppy self-aggrandizing speech two years ago?
Okay then
posted by ook at 3:51 AM on November 12
I am riffing so hard here.
UNEVEN SMILE DIMPLES
posted by Sebmojo at 12:56 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by Sebmojo at 7:07 PM on November 11
So this is a florid in-joke-laden masturbatory one-uppy self-aggrandizing article about how she stopped engaging in florid in-joke-laden masturbatory one-uppy self-aggrandizing speech two years ago?
Okay then
posted by ook at 3:51 AM on November 12
I am riffing so hard here.
UNEVEN SMILE DIMPLES
posted by Sebmojo at 12:56 PM on November 12, 2013
My boss does this shit in a mortifyingly inexpert fashion. I tell an anecdote about something that happened, he has to jump in and talk about how it happened to him 5 years earlier. I mention someone I used to work with, in the company of someone else who knows that person, and he insists that he, too, knows that person. It's enough to drive you batty. I have no clue why he feels compelled to best me in every ridiculous situation; it's got me looking for a new job.
posted by Mister_A at 1:36 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister_A at 1:36 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I am riffing so hard here.
I riffed on your riff bro riff me back asap
ASYMMETRICAL BUTTOCKS
posted by ook at 1:51 PM on November 12, 2013
I riffed on your riff bro riff me back asap
ASYMMETRICAL BUTTOCKS
posted by ook at 1:51 PM on November 12, 2013
I riffed on your riff bro riff me back asap
ASYMMETRICAL BUTTOCKS
LOL I ONCE WORKED WITH A GIRL WHO HAD ONE LEG SHORTER THAN THE OTHER SHE KEPT WALKIN IN CIRCLES YOUR TURN
posted by Sebmojo at 2:39 PM on November 12, 2013
ASYMMETRICAL BUTTOCKS
LOL I ONCE WORKED WITH A GIRL WHO HAD ONE LEG SHORTER THAN THE OTHER SHE KEPT WALKIN IN CIRCLES YOUR TURN
posted by Sebmojo at 2:39 PM on November 12, 2013
LOL I WORKED WITH HER TOO WE NAILED HER OTHER FOOT TO THE FLOOR YOUR TURN
posted by Fezboy! at 3:43 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by Fezboy! at 3:43 PM on November 12, 2013
LOL HER CIRCLE REVERSED DIRECTION AND SHE ASKED US WHY WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT BUT SHE WAS MORE SAD THAN OUTRAGED AS THOUGH HER MOST PESSIMISTIC EXPECTATIONS HAD BEEN FULFILLED AND EVERYTHING HAD TURNED OUT EXACTLY AS SHE HAD FEARED IT WOULD AND OUR SHAME WAS LIMITLESS LOL
posted by ook at 3:53 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by ook at 3:53 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
I met a one-upping paranoid schizophrenic once. She was carrying a clipboard like someone taking a survey on the street, this was her in to converse with random strangers who'd otherwise avoid her. She was apparently being tracked by 18 covert agencies; all of which had implanted microchips in her head.
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:23 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:23 PM on November 12, 2013
Was it a one-upping because you only had 15 chips in your head?
posted by Hal Mumkin at 1:59 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Hal Mumkin at 1:59 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
My KC story:
Years ago, I found a cover-story think-piece she did in one of Toronto's alt-weeklies so awful that I was ranting about it over beer with a friend of mine. Who, as it happened, was a common friend between the two of us.
He convinced me to put down in writing what I had objected to (much of what has been noted in this thread: convoluted syntax, clumsy neologisms, unclear arguments & structure) and send it off to her. "She's totally into feedback and discussing things."
I wrote it down and sent it off, and while it was harshly worded it was about the writing, not her personally. I received no response.
Days later, another mutual friend let me know that she had tweeted that she had received "the most vicious piece of hate mail ever." Which I suppose is something.
The takeaway: when your primary subject is yourself, it can be difficult to separate criticism of your work and of you as a person. Further, you rely very heavily on 1) how interesting you are as a person and 2) how vivid you are as a stylist to maintain reader interest. Not the easiest row to hoe.
Addendum: the "what the fuck is wrong with my generation" has been a recurring theme in her work at least since I wrote my "feedback" years ago, and though I didn't read past the first few lines of this current article, time seems not to have improved it much in elegance or clarity.
posted by faceattack at 6:47 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
Years ago, I found a cover-story think-piece she did in one of Toronto's alt-weeklies so awful that I was ranting about it over beer with a friend of mine. Who, as it happened, was a common friend between the two of us.
He convinced me to put down in writing what I had objected to (much of what has been noted in this thread: convoluted syntax, clumsy neologisms, unclear arguments & structure) and send it off to her. "She's totally into feedback and discussing things."
I wrote it down and sent it off, and while it was harshly worded it was about the writing, not her personally. I received no response.
Days later, another mutual friend let me know that she had tweeted that she had received "the most vicious piece of hate mail ever." Which I suppose is something.
The takeaway: when your primary subject is yourself, it can be difficult to separate criticism of your work and of you as a person. Further, you rely very heavily on 1) how interesting you are as a person and 2) how vivid you are as a stylist to maintain reader interest. Not the easiest row to hoe.
Addendum: the "what the fuck is wrong with my generation" has been a recurring theme in her work at least since I wrote my "feedback" years ago, and though I didn't read past the first few lines of this current article, time seems not to have improved it much in elegance or clarity.
posted by faceattack at 6:47 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
The thread description made me think that perhaps Joel Hodgson gave up riffing, and this was going to be an article about his reasoning for doing so. Then I read the link and was very, very disappointed.
Why do I get the feeling that this writer makes way, way more money than I do for considerably less work? The world seems like a sadder place than it was just ten minutes ago.
posted by gern at 10:15 AM on November 13, 2013
Why do I get the feeling that this writer makes way, way more money than I do for considerably less work? The world seems like a sadder place than it was just ten minutes ago.
posted by gern at 10:15 AM on November 13, 2013
Was it a one-upping because you only had 15 chips in your head?
my head was completely stuffed with chips before the seagulls came
posted by flabdablet at 7:17 AM on November 14, 2013
my head was completely stuffed with chips before the seagulls came
posted by flabdablet at 7:17 AM on November 14, 2013
Wasn't one of the best recent MeFi threads all basically riffing on Kendrick Lamar's dis verse?
posted by klangklangston at 10:38 AM on December 11, 2013
posted by klangklangston at 10:38 AM on December 11, 2013
« Older Portrait - Autoportrait | Out. OUT. OUT! Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by c'mon sea legs at 9:51 PM on November 11, 2013