“Feminism,” she said to herself, and then put on some red lipstick.
November 17, 2013 5:17 PM   Subscribe

 
Also done visually by Carly Monardo, Meredith Gran and Kate Beaton with Strong Female Characters
posted by steerpike at 5:27 PM on November 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


"Thanks for all the doing it. But I have to go win a karate tournament."

I lost it right there. Very nice.
posted by brundlefly at 5:29 PM on November 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


Ugh, God, yeah, the whiskey thing, where to be a woman taken seriously you have to adopt the trappings of masculinity like actively refusing to cuddle after sex and having "masculine" drinks. I appreciated the recognition of those things being ways that women demonstrate they're "strong".
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:32 PM on November 17, 2013 [13 favorites]


"and she also had a gun, to fight sexism."

I love this. But can someone explain to me the comment about her curly-haired friend not getting it?
posted by headnsouth at 5:36 PM on November 17, 2013


Yes, this is all very nice but what of the men?
posted by Gin and Comics at 5:39 PM on November 17, 2013 [4 favorites]


The curly-haired friend doesn't "get it" because she still thinks she needs a man, I believe.
posted by ropeladder at 5:41 PM on November 17, 2013


The jukebox made a record-scratching sound, even though it was an mp3-playing jukebox.

“I can hold my own in the bedroom and the boardroom,” she said to no one, and to everyone.


Laughing. The thing I like about this is actually how it points out the absurdity of the male-centric "strong women look sexy!" meme. I don't care if women want to look sexy, but it's a stupid precondition for being the Renaissance Woman. If you're the best at everything in the room, why do you want a bunch of inferior emotionally-clingy boys looking at your butt? You look at their butts, my friend. Their butts exist for your pleasure.
posted by stoneandstar at 5:42 PM on November 17, 2013 [41 favorites]


I love this. But can someone explain to me the comment about her curly-haired friend not getting it?

Every Powerful Female Character needs a friend to be better than. She should be pretty but not hot, and have at least one undesirable trait that the Powerful Female does not have, such as chubbiness, being brunette and/or non-white, a desire for a boyfriend which she does not currently have, being funny (yes, this is a negative trait for a woman to have according to some), caring either more or less about her career than the main character, having pets, etc.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:43 PM on November 17, 2013 [40 favorites]


Their butts exist for your pleasure.

behind every great man is me

checkin out the booty
posted by elizardbits at 5:46 PM on November 17, 2013 [76 favorites]


Anyone else get a really annoying ad-yield pop up on Android?
posted by arcticseal at 5:53 PM on November 17, 2013


She always called men boys, because she knew what gender was.

I have no idea what that even means, but I laughed.
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:53 PM on November 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


behind every great man is me

checkin out the booty


Something something "greatness thrust upon them."
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 5:53 PM on November 17, 2013 [5 favorites]


I'd just like to remind everyone that this post immediately follows one about great butts. Make of that what you will.
posted by valrus at 5:54 PM on November 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


She took off her blonde ponytail and shook her hair loose; there was another blonde ponytail underneath it.

This reminded me of the Chuck Norris joke.
posted by arcticseal at 5:55 PM on November 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'd just like to remind everyone that this post immediately follows one about great butts. Make of that what you will.

This is the zone in which you cannot lie.
posted by Artw at 5:56 PM on November 17, 2013 [15 favorites]


“According to this scroll, all the prophecies are going to explode"

Ok, I admit that I laughed.
posted by mhoye at 5:56 PM on November 17, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yes, this is all very nice but what of the men?

over here ...

“You’re leaving?” he asked, full of feelings.

Which, by the way, is the title of my new novel.
posted by philip-random at 6:01 PM on November 17, 2013 [6 favorites]


Huh. Reminds me of something.
posted by NedKoppel at 6:04 PM on November 17, 2013


NedKoppel, that reminds me of this anti-suffrage cartoon from 1908.
posted by Corinth at 6:12 PM on November 17, 2013 [26 favorites]


Those suffragettes look to be having a damn fine time in 1908!
posted by chapps at 6:50 PM on November 17, 2013 [5 favorites]


Behind her the pool table exploded. Every man in the bar immediately grew a beard. The jukebox made a record-scratching sound, even though it was an mp3-playing jukebox.

Yeah, I had a straight face until here.
posted by the painkiller at 6:51 PM on November 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


> adopt the trappings of masculinity like actively refusing to cuddle after sex

False flag. That's not masculine, that's Reptilian.
posted by jfuller at 6:52 PM on November 17, 2013


> False flag. That's not masculine, that's Reptilian

Thats not Reptilian, its Venusian.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:58 PM on November 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


Men are from Venus, women are from Reptil.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 7:13 PM on November 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


Oh I love anti-suffrage cartoons.* The men are just fucking terrified that women didn't want equality, but to turn the tables and make men into slaves...which of course laid bare the actual status of women as near-slaves.

One of my favorites (sadly not online but featured in Make Way! 200 Years of American Women in Cartoons) is from 1912 and ran in Life. A tough-looking but beskirted woman smoking a cigarette sits across from a weeping man at the table, with a disdainful expression. "Oh John, for heaven's sake, stop that blubbering about going home to your mother! I'm sick of it!"

It's fascinating because it's hard to tell where the cartoonist's sympahies lie. Does the woman's cruelty show up that of a typical man, or does it just reflect male fears of becoming subordinate? And that particular book has pages and pages of similar things.

*I'm sure to actual suffragists at the time, they were much more annoying and upsetting than funny or interesting, but they do provide a lot of material to historians and sociologists.
posted by emjaybee at 7:14 PM on November 17, 2013 [18 favorites]


I'm a dude but I'd totally be down to hang with all those suffragette ladies, they look like fun. Even they won't quit objectifying my booty. I'm not a piece of legislation you can vote on, ladies.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 7:15 PM on November 17, 2013 [11 favorites]


For the record, I like whisky and cuddling. In fact sometimes I cuddle with a bottle of...yeah, nevermind.
posted by thivaia at 7:19 PM on November 17, 2013 [9 favorites]


He never saw Molly again.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:30 PM on November 17, 2013 [4 favorites]


adopt the trappings of masculinity like actively refusing to cuddle after sex

False flag. That's not masculine, that's Reptilian.


That's part of the point, though, it's not how actual real human men are, it's like cargo-cult masculinity where if you pretend to be a no-feelings asshole you will magically turn into the ultimate man which is not a person with whom most of us would want to spend any time.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:37 PM on November 17, 2013 [7 favorites]


I love my husband but I cannot ever recall a time where his or any other butt gave me great pleasure to look at.

Is this something that happened in the seventies when women started getting liberated? I mean, I suspect this is something some of us started for political reasons, not genuine viewing pleasure.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:46 PM on November 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


Is this something that happened in the seventies when women started getting liberated? I mean, I suspect this is something some of us started for political reasons, not genuine viewing pleasure.

I sprang into existence well after the 70s so I can't comment on that part, but yes I likes me some man ass and it is in no way a political statement.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:49 PM on November 17, 2013 [15 favorites]


I love my boyfriend's ass. I want to bite it.

I was born in the late 80s so I doubt it was the political climate at the time.

But if men wanted to start dressing in a way that showed off their primary sexual characteristics a little more I wouldn't mind that either. Springsteen/Jagger it up.
posted by stoneandstar at 7:54 PM on November 17, 2013 [4 favorites]


My mom was born in 1950 and likes herself a good eyeful of man butt.

She would die if she knew I posted this.
posted by Ouisch at 7:55 PM on November 17, 2013 [36 favorites]


One of the Book of Lists published
a survey that asked both men and women which body part of men they thought women liked best.
The men thought biceps and big shoulders were #1. The women ranked butts highest.

Me, I like big men with green eyes.
posted by brujita at 8:21 PM on November 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


After all the terrible and annoying things that went on last week, it was a delight to read this on Friday. It really just got right to how ridiculous and reductive "strong female characters" too often are.

Yeah, I really really needed to read this last week.
posted by darksong at 8:22 PM on November 17, 2013


"Eyeful of Man Butt" scans the same as "Hatful of Hollow," so now I really want this to be the title of the Smith's reunion album.
posted by bibliowench at 8:26 PM on November 17, 2013 [8 favorites]


Yeah, not a political thing here either.

Semi-relatedly, it's interesting watching a show like Arrow, where the showrunners make no bones about who they're trying to appeal to. Gratuitous shirtless wrestling scenes, ahoy! It's so rare to see a show where male bodies are on display and female bodies are, generally, covered up*, that I constantly notice the difference.

(*Though that has changed a bit lately with the Sara flashback scenes.)
posted by Georgina at 8:43 PM on November 17, 2013 [4 favorites]


My mom was born in 1950 and likes herself a good eyeful of man butt.

My gramma was born in 1912 and every winter would look forward to watching the figure skating so she could unashamedly check out MAN BUNS.
posted by elizardbits at 9:03 PM on November 17, 2013 [5 favorites]


And believe me you have not truly lived until you have heard the gravelly 2-pack-a-day growl of an 80 year old lady with a thick Brooklyn accent saying GET A LOAD OF THOSE BUNS.
posted by elizardbits at 9:08 PM on November 17, 2013 [34 favorites]


I know many, many ladies in my demographic who decided boys weren't so icky when they saw George Michael in the video for Faith. And also some dudes, if I'm being honest.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:29 PM on November 17, 2013 [5 favorites]


George Michael in the Faith video transcends gender preference and possibly species preference.
posted by elizardbits at 9:30 PM on November 17, 2013 [18 favorites]


I love my husband but I cannot ever recall a time where his or any other butt gave me great pleasure to look at.

I was born in 1975, my husband in 1969. Said husband bicycles 125 miles a week, because he commutes to work on his bicycle. And he arrives home in cycling spandex shorts. And, well, bicycling 125 miles a week is good for your backside. Literally every single day he gets home and no matter how frazzled or weary I am, there's a moment where my internal monologue espies his bottom in the aforementioned cycling shorts and thinks "Damn, that is a good butt."
posted by KathrynT at 9:39 PM on November 17, 2013 [6 favorites]


you should lie in wait by the front door with a boombox and as soon as he walks in, start playing this song
posted by elizardbits at 9:41 PM on November 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


my husband has a great ass, great for groping and biting. i was born in the 80s and found my love of butts long before i was political about anything.
posted by nadawi at 9:51 PM on November 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


I feel like a freak because I do not like to bite butts.
posted by Justinian at 10:11 PM on November 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


I feel like a freak because I do not like to bite butts.
But anus dentata likes to bite you.
posted by Kerasia at 10:23 PM on November 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


luckily le freak c'est chic
posted by elizardbits at 10:44 PM on November 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


"...but at the mythic level, the erotic symbolism is more perverse and bisexual. The gun is interpretable as a phallic anus dentatus that farts/spits out a penetrating tooth/turd (the gun as fart-fang?)...."

I should really not be allowed to google any phrase I find amusing after midnight.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 10:44 PM on November 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


Is this something that happened in the seventies when women started getting liberated? I mean, I suspect this is something some of us started for political reasons, not genuine viewing pleasure.

Definitely not. I was born in the late 80s, and I distinctly recall having feelings about Bruce Springsteen's butt when watching VH-1 as an impressionable 12 year-old. Also, I submit to you the glorious, gratuitous ass shot of Captain America from the Avengers, which surely exists solely so we can marvel at Chris Evans' ass.
posted by yasaman at 10:49 PM on November 17, 2013 [8 favorites]


I found this really funny and really sad. Yes, it is possible for a man to have a sense of humour and be sensitive to the issue.
posted by manoffewwords at 11:50 PM on November 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


oh yes, butts. Born mid-1970s and butts were my first realization of the effects of physical desire. Also appreciative of thighs, living in Europe gives many opportunities for fans of the muscled gluteus maximus to combine both a love of cycling and/or football with a florilege of viewing opportunities.

Also, the FPP, trappings of masculinity. Yeah, definitely false flag stuff; those don't actually get you taken seriously, which is part of why it's so funny. Especially if you don't use them as trappings, but merely happen to fit what people shove into the "masculine" column. Last week, tall strong (as in physically strong, I do not have abs, I am big) me got mild-assaulted again for being that. Woman I've never met was staring at my legs on the train (?!), mumbled something about my size when I passed her (she was sitting), then she got up, followed me off the train, ran to catch up to me, stalked me until we got to a doorway (I was kind of freaking out at that point), then shoved me into oncomers once we got there, and said I had it coming to me. Something like that happens to me once every two years, usually it's men and they comment it with a variation of "you're too tall, had it comin' to ya". My brothister (MTF transgender) experienced it as well; she passed for a woman, but as such, suddenly started to be randomly assaulted for being tall and holding herself up straight. Sadly, it was one reason he decided to go back to being a cis man. He had expected anti-trans problems, but not that. Being hit for being a woman was too much for him :/
posted by fraula at 12:35 AM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


Ask your doctor if ReptilTM is right for you.
posted by JHarris at 1:10 AM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


Mallory Ortberg is a pretty funny writer, looking at her list of articles
. I liked her article about how similar Tom curry and Dave Grohl are.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 1:25 AM on November 18, 2013


Also, I submit to you the glorious, gratuitous ass shot of Captain America from the Avengers, which surely exists solely so we can marvel at Chris Evans' ass.

Chris Evans' ass made a convert out of me.

Jeez, baby. They should put a warning label on that.
posted by Katemonkey at 2:33 AM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


It might be a coincidence-- me being at the right age for gaining new sexual feelings-- but I wasn't much for butts until Nathan Fillion. I know this is cliche and I do not care. Gina Torres' is nice too.
posted by NoraReed at 4:14 AM on November 18, 2013 [4 favorites]


I love my husband but I cannot ever recall a time where his or any other butt gave me great pleasure to look at.

Have you ever watched professional rugby? I got to introduce an older strong female figure in my life to it and now she knows the World Cup schedule by heart!
posted by jetlagaddict at 4:30 AM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


Missing the "so many abs" tag.
posted by longbaugh at 4:34 AM on November 18, 2013


Have you ever watched professional rugby?

Also I have heard there is a calendar. A rugby butts calendar.
posted by elizardbits at 5:17 AM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh hey guys, I didn't know Tina Belcher was a MeFite.
posted by pxe2000 at 5:18 AM on November 18, 2013 [3 favorites]


Also I have heard there is a calendar. A rugby butts calendar.

oh there is indeed

link is obviously not safe for most work environments unless your work environment loves butts
posted by jetlagaddict at 5:35 AM on November 18, 2013


If the next Captain America movies does not have the Captain and Black Widow settling some score with a butt-off, I will be most disappointed.
posted by bibliowench at 6:20 AM on November 18, 2013 [7 favorites]


Wow that is a shocking rip-off by the US amazon site, almost 3x the cost of it on amazon.fr even with added overseas shipping.
posted by elizardbits at 6:52 AM on November 18, 2013


Some of the descriptions in this piece could have come unironically out of just about any modern female private detective/cop/vampire-slayer novel.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:57 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


Along those lines, we spent part of the weekend watching The Bletchley Circle because Netflix decided to recommend it. It's reasonably realistic as far as serial killer narratives go. It's feminist in that the detectives are four of the many female geniuses that the Allies grabbed out of college to do math and analysis for classified projects. Major subplots pivot on the constraints of gender discrimination and the Official Secrets Act. And I thought it was a nice mystery that didn't involve having an 11th-hour pivotal clue drop into the detectives lap.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:11 AM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


My daughter and I are both afflicted with that plumber crack syndrome.
posted by Mister_A at 7:18 AM on November 18, 2013


cargo-cult masculinity

I can't believe I haven't heard this term before, and it is brilliant.

Although Googling it led me to this, which seems to go to heroically epic lengths to miss the point.
posted by psoas at 7:34 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


@Georgina -- only vaguely-related, but my fella introduced me to Arrow as "A show you will probably like but the main character spends too much time shirtless. It's not like the show's *about* his abs, after all." He didn't realize how "the way he feels about the camera ogling the dude in Arrow" is also "the way I feel about every movie with gratuitous boobie and ass shots of the female lead".

We had a talk, the gist of which is that actors (men and women) of a certain young, physically-perfect type are *for* looking at -- that's their job, being-looked-at. It's not a difficult concept -- lots of people like to look at attractive, physically-perfect young adults in varying stages of undress. If one spends as much time on-camera shirtless as Mr. Amell (actor who portrays the protagonist in Arrow) does, doing gratuitous L-sits and below-horizontal pushups and salmon ladders and so forth, looking-good-shirtless is at least half the job and I can't imagine he's unaware of this fact. Actors whose job is being physically-perfect-and-looked-at are aware of how the media companies are using them and I certainly hope that they are demanding what they deem to be sufficient compensation for the effort (it takes lots of off-camera work and diet management to look like that) and (presumed) indignity of being eye-candy.

As someone who is not a gender theorist, I am not sure that having fluff television with eye candy for people who like to look at shirtless men (as well as eye candy for people who like to look at ladies) is particularly progressive on the gender wars front, but from where I sit (slack jawed and drooling, on the sofa), it's more fun for me to watch.
posted by which_chick at 7:35 AM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


God, yeah, the whiskey thing, where to be a woman taken seriously you have to adopt the trappings of masculinity like actively refusing to cuddle after sex and having "masculine" drinks.

Sorry to quote myself but I actually thought of something hugely relevant to this that actually happened last week (also this is an excuse to tell this story which I sort of want to do, and then I will shut up about it).

Our landlord sold our house so we had to move, and (through actually really fortuitous circumstances) we ended up needing to do so in about two weeks. For various peculiar reasons I am not at work right now (but still getting paid through December 2nd) so I was home all day and able to manage the packing. We rented a truck to do it ourselves (for which my roommate graciously paid) and were ready to move on Saturday.

The only thing is that the last sentence is a lie. As a surprise birthday present for Mr. Pterodactyl, I hired movers to come on Friday while he was at work. My roommate (who was in on the whole thing) had not hired a truck, we just wanted to make sure Mr. Pterodactyl didn't actually do it himself; I even created a fake rental confirmation and used some Czech website to send it from no-reply@budgettrucks.com (All the links worked. I really, really want to be on the A-Team). Anyway, the movers came and they were super, super awesome and we actually got everything physically into the new house by about twenty past four.

The very first thing I did was set up the bed so when Mr. Pterodactyl got home we could cuddle as soon as possible. The next thing I did was get the living room in order and put out some stuff so that as soon as he showed up at the new place (to which I had lured him with the enticement of setting up some Ikea furniture) he would see a birthday card (actually a Bar Mitzvah card because that's how I roll), a wrapped prezzie, and a glass of bourbon so he could relax.

The whole thing went REALLY smoothly and apparently he actually was completely surprised (his first words upon coming in were "what did you do?" but he asks me this kind of a lot), then he opened his prezzie (the board game Dixit which is awesome) and drank bourbon and my brother and his girlfriend came over and we played Dixit and ate pizza and surprise pie which I had also made and hidden (an epic story in its own right).

Anyway, the point of this story and the relevance to this thread is that my husband, who is definitely a "man" in a societal sense and is super awesome, really, really enjoys both cuddling and bourbon but this is because they are awesome, not because he feels a need to perform masculinity, as the woman in this piece (and more serious pieces of fiction and even real life, including me) often do.

The end.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:39 AM on November 18, 2013 [21 favorites]


cargo-cult masculinity

I can't believe I haven't heard this term before, and it is brilliant.


Sorry to post twice in a row, but OMG thank you! I think I just made it up? Probably not, but ever since taking a class in college with J.Z. Smith I think about cargo cults a lot.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:40 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


I read this on Twitter last night and laughed my head off. I honestly hadn't heard of Mallory Ortberg until The Toast launched, but man, that woman is a goddamn treasure. <3
posted by Phire at 8:19 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sex glasses. Well done!
posted by Mister_A at 9:00 AM on November 18, 2013


Surprise pie is the best kind of pie.
posted by rtha at 9:03 AM on November 18, 2013


It confuses me that some people do not derive pleasure out of attractive manbutts. I am a straight man and I'm not all that interested sexually in ladybutts either but come on, there is something nice about an aesthetically-pleasing posterior that has nothing to do with sexual orientation and everything to do with a deep rightness in the universe.
posted by Rory Marinich at 9:10 AM on November 18, 2013 [3 favorites]


"Fundamental" rightness, surely.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:13 AM on November 18, 2013 [10 favorites]


My dad told me professional bicyclists always check out each other's butts to see how in-shape they are. He has a long history of using bicycle related things to fuck with homophobes, though, so this might be part of that.
posted by NoraReed at 9:25 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


yasaman: "Also, I submit to you the glorious, gratuitous ass shot of Captain America from the Avengers, which surely exists solely so we can marvel at Chris Evans' ass."

Heh, every so often I am presented with proof I am hetero-inflexible. I didn't notice that was an ass-shot until you pointed it out; in my naivety, I thought it was about his shoulders and guns. It's like women use completely different eyeballs and brains than mine, or something...

I recently called a few friends to see if they wanted to go see Thor. To my surprise, two men called their wives to the phone, knowing they'd enjoy it more (and dads pulled parent-duty). Oh, right: Thor is one of the few superhero films that really doesn't aim the camera like a 14yo boy; Sif is nice enough to look at, but the movie's appeal is really about the man-candy. I loved it, but probably (in some scenes) for slightly different reasons than my two companions.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:46 AM on November 18, 2013 [3 favorites]


The Avengers (most of the MCU, to be honest) deserves some kind of entry in the Butts Hall of Fame because every single main character has a ridiculously perfect butt and there are so many gratuitous ass shots, without regard to gender or plot relevance or really anything except the absolute perfection of many sets of glutes.

I didn't notice that was an ass-shot until you pointed it out; in my naivety, I thought it was about his shoulders and guns.

I'm going to go with it's an everything shot. It's a Jesus-H-Christ-somebody-hold-me-have-you-seen-Chris-Evans-I-mean-like-all-of-him shot. But the butt is definitely a large (heh) part of it.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:40 AM on November 18, 2013 [7 favorites]


My dad told me professional bicyclists always check out each other's butts to see how in-shape they are. He has a long history of using bicycle related things to fuck with homophobes, though, so this might be part of that.

"It's like I'm wearing nothin' at all...nothin' at all...nothin' at all"
posted by zombieflanders at 10:45 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


When I saw the title I immediately knew that it was a sequel and I did a little fist-bump of my own in my head.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:06 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm going to go with it's an everything shot. It's a Jesus-H-Christ-somebody-hold-me-have-you-seen-Chris-Evans-I-mean-like-all-of-him shot. But the butt is definitely a large (heh) part of it.

Ha, yeah, it's a "holy shit look at Chris Evans, he is an actual human being with the physical proportions of a comic book hero!" moment. I never thought I'd be into that physique, but Chris Evans existing has changed that. I feel like the Marvel movies in general appeal more to the female gaze than the male one, which is partly a consequence of having so many more male characters.

Also, I'm just going to drop this other Mallory Ortberg sequel here: More Misandrist Lullabies.
posted by yasaman at 11:28 AM on November 18, 2013 [4 favorites]


I am so happy that Arrow is getting its deserved bona fides here for delicious, shameless man eyecandy. Behold the season 2 promo posters:
in which every male castmember is shirtless.

I'm also giving a non-ironic Strong Female Characters gold star to Arrow's adorkable female lead, Felicity Smoak, who joined Team Arrow to A)help the helpless B)ogle shirtless hero Oliver as he trains sweatily. Not necessarily in that order. When Felicity remodeled the Arrowcave over the summer, she left the infamous salmon ladder because she likes watching him use it.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:58 AM on November 18, 2013


Surprise pie is the best kind of pie.

What if the surprise is bees though.
posted by elizardbits at 12:32 PM on November 18, 2013 [4 favorites]


Thanks for the Arrow recs, people, because now I totally know what I'm doing over Xmas break.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:49 PM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


The Avengers (most of the MCU, to be honest) deserves some kind of entry in the Butts Hall of Fame because every single main character has a ridiculously perfect butt and there are so many gratuitous ass shots, without regard to gender or plot relevance or really anything except the absolute perfection of many sets of glutes.

Dear Santa: Please have someone on Youtube make me a Avengers Butt Supercut for Christmas.
posted by emjaybee at 1:05 PM on November 18, 2013 [4 favorites]


There is no way this does not already exist.
posted by elizardbits at 1:07 PM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


What if the surprise is bees though.

I imagine it goes something like this.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:07 PM on November 18, 2013 [7 favorites]


In fact so certain am I that it already exists that I am now going to google FROM WORK "avengers butts video"
posted by elizardbits at 1:07 PM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


SUPERBOOTY
posted by elizardbits at 1:08 PM on November 18, 2013 [6 favorites]


YOU MUST SQUAT THIS MANY POUNDS TO RIDE THE HELICARRIER.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:15 PM on November 18, 2013 [3 favorites]


elizardbits, I cannot (well, should not) search or watch that at work, but thanks.
posted by emjaybee at 1:30 PM on November 18, 2013


which_chick: As someone who is not a gender theorist, I am not sure that having fluff television with eye candy for people who like to look at shirtless men (as well as eye candy for people who like to look at ladies) is particularly progressive on the gender wars front, but from where I sit (slack jawed and drooling, on the sofa), it's more fun for me to watch.

I do think Arrow is progressive, though not (only) because of the shirtless dudes.

Arrow appears to be a show that's very aware of its audience, and tries hard to write the best show for that audience. It has great female characters who are treated with respect and have their own agency. It has an emphasis on family of all kinds: birth (Moira and her children, Lance and his daughters), created (Walter's terrific relationship with his step-children, and come back, Walter!) and found (Oliver/Felicity/Diggle and also, to a lesser extent, Thea/Roy). It has several major characters of colour, and a bunch of minor ones, and none of them are stereotypes. It's also just generally socially positive: nobody gets slut shamed, dismissed for their gender/race, or exists only to be T & A.

Arrow isn't a perfect show, but I admire that it strives to be above average and think it frequently gets there, too. Some episodes, like 2x01, are genuinely great television, and even the bad ones are entertaining. And because it treats its characters well, I can watch it and be happy, rather than spending half of each episode gritting my teeth.

The shirtless dudes are nice, but they're just a bonus.
posted by Georgina at 3:46 PM on November 18, 2013 [4 favorites]


His entire superhero costume is smoky eye makeup and a hoodie so that alone renders it awesome.
posted by elizardbits at 4:33 PM on November 18, 2013 [3 favorites]


Thank you all for the hilarity of this thread. I have been on Metafilter for nearly 10 years and man-butts is now my favorite derail of all time.
posted by Ndwright at 5:14 PM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


Flagged for fantastic, Georgina! Arrow is the fun superhero show I have always wanted, that I can love without hating myself in the morning. Season 1 had rough patches but season 2 has been consistently hitting it out of the park. And I really love the characters, all of them. Overall the show's been great about expanding the WASPy male DC cast with women and POC by adding original characters (Thea Queen, John Diggle), racebending existing characters (Slade Wilson), and expanding minor roles (Felicity Smoak, Moira Queen with Susanna Thompson in the performance of her career).
posted by nicebookrack at 5:33 PM on November 18, 2013


I don't know about anybody else but I'm closing my eyes and going to an alternate universe where this post led to a long derail about "sex glasses".
posted by mmoncur at 6:20 PM on November 18, 2013


Sex glasses.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:03 PM on November 18, 2013


Obviously man-ass derails must be kept in mind for future fighty threads on the Grey instead of recipes.
posted by NoraReed at 11:48 PM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


Thank you all for the hilarity of this thread. I have been on Metafilter for nearly 10 years and man-butts is now my favorite derail of all time.

You don't think it's a little creepy that a thread turned into a thing about "what people find sexy"? Like, uhm, TMI?
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 5:39 AM on November 19, 2013


> You don't think it's a little creepy that a thread turned into a thing about "what people find sexy"?

Nope! Can we talk about Spartacus now?
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:19 AM on November 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


Can we talk about Spartacus now?

Joey, do you like movies about gladiators?
posted by headnsouth at 8:54 AM on November 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


That was probably the only series which I wholly enjoyed from beginning to end, and even then there was a rogue plot point that popped up in the third to last episode of the final season which was a ruining ruiner plot point that made me so mad.
posted by elizardbits at 9:02 AM on November 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Obviously man-ass derails must be kept in mind for future fighty threads on the Grey instead of recipes.

Obviously this is why they took the img tag away. Somehow... they KNEW.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:52 AM on November 19, 2013 [1 favorite]




You don't think it's a little creepy that a thread turned into a thing about "what people find sexy"? Like, uhm, TMI?
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 5:39 AM on November 19 [+] [!]


That deserves an eponysterical.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:28 PM on November 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


That deserves an eponysterical.

Well, if you don't want to examine your culture when it starts creeping people out, that's pretty problematic, isn't it?
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 5:06 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


If you find the man-ass creepy, then you should say "Hey! I am creeped out by all this man-ass!" instead of being all cryptic about it. Unless making direct statements violates the spirit of your participation here.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:53 AM on November 20, 2013 [7 favorites]


If someone is actually being creeped out, I'd be interested in knowing that. I think we're doing a good job of having fun while not being gross.

Otherwise let's talk about how Gannicus is all rarrr despite practically having a French braid
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:28 AM on November 20, 2013


This, of course...'s post and meaning was very clear to this reader. He/she wasn't "all cryptic."

I am not at all offended by this thread, I'm enjoying it quite a lot, but I'm a woman who likes how a well-fitting pair of jeans looks on a man. I can see how some of the comments here could be seen as objectifying men, which is ironic given that it's a feminist-don't-objectify-women kind of post (albeit a fun one).

I mean, if someone wrote "my wife has a great ass for groping and biting" there would probably be a lot of "what's her brain like?" and "jeez does she know you're posting about her body/your sex life on the internet?" So, it may be beanplating, but it also may be worth examining as This, of course... suggests.
posted by headnsouth at 9:05 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well, if you don't want to examine your culture when it starts creeping people out, that's pretty problematic, isn't it?

There are a few points I'd advance here.
1. Objectifying men is pretty much overwhelmingly counter to The Culture at-large, and it seems like for a lot of people here (mostly if not all women? I didn't check) it is kind of a relief to be able to admit to something that isn't frequently talked about, and that I'd even go so far as to say is pretty much harmless.
2. So far one person (you) has said it's creepy. A couple of others have said something along the lines of "it's not for me, but whatever." Your opinions are as valid and welcome as anyone's here, but (because of point 1) it will be a pretty high hurdle to convince others of your position. So there's a fuzzy area between what's a problem for you and what ascends to Problematic. (Which sucks, to be sure. I'm sympathetic.)
3. Sure, some of the discussion dances on the edge of TMI. I don't think it crosses over.
4. Is it a derail from the ostensible topic of the FPP? Sorta. And kind of an ironic one, but not one that I can see people really needing to "examine their culture" over.

posted by psoas at 9:59 AM on November 20, 2013


> So far one person (you) has said it's creepy

Nobody has said this is creepy. This, of course, alludes to you has asked if people find it creepy, but -- unless I'm missing something -- nobody has actually said that we're being creepy.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:18 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


The corpse in the library: " Nobody has said this is creepy. This, of course, alludes to you has asked if people find it creepy, but -- unless I'm missing something -- nobody has actually said that we're being creepy."

This, of course, alludes to you has phrased things in terms of questions, instead of actually saying what they think. This gives T,oc,aty plausible deniability as far as "did not actually call anybody or their behavior creepy", even though at least one commenter has said they found the meaning perfectly clear.

To me this kind of arguing is disingenuous and often passive-aggressive. "Gosh, does anybody find this problematic?" is not the same as "Hey, I find this problematic because [x, y, z]. Does anybody else?" or even "I'm not sure how I feel about this. Does it seem creepy to anybody? Because [p,q,r] aspects seem off to me." Some things take some consideration and discussion before one knows what one really thinks about them.

Taking the roundabout concern troll method of "I'm just wondering if this bothers anybody else" and implying that the people in the discussion don't want to examine your culture when it starts creeping people out doesn't feel like arguing in good faith. Say what you actually think.

Me, I think that a little bit of butt-ogling is pretty near harmless, given the context and setting in which it arises.
posted by Lexica at 5:18 PM on November 20, 2013 [6 favorites]


my husband watched me type the comment about his ass and he's in no way offended by my opinions on his bite-ability. someone asked if women actually liked asses and suggested maybe it was a womens lib remnant. people responded with "nope, i just really like butts!" i don't really have a lot to say about "just reverse it and see how it sounds!" because there's all this cultural baggage and expectations and ways the different genders are treated that just can't be hand-waved away.

now, if someone had actually said "hey, nadawi, i was creeped out by how i felt my gender was being objectified in your comment" i'd have a conversation with that person and listen to their concerns.
posted by nadawi at 6:47 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


So there's a fuzzy area between what's a problem for you and what ascends to Problematic. (Which sucks, to be sure. I'm sympathetic.)

So deeming something problematic requires "consensus", which is a fancy way of saying it's decided democratically, correct?
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 12:46 AM on November 21, 2013


I think it's more that we end up talking about what's problematic and people generally knock it off if they think they're harming someone, or we go to MeTa or a mod steps in. But when the thing that's potentially problematic is supposed to be harming a majority power, such as men, we don't care as much because we aren't contributing to a legacy of institutionalized prejudice, objectification, dehumanization and violence against that group. A group of women (and a handful of men) discussing men's butts exists in much more of a cultural vacuum than the inverse. Moreover, the discussion of men's butts seemed to flow naturally from the more cogent elements of the post and the discussion: that is, intentional inversions of the male gaze, as in Arrow, and our reactions to them.
posted by NoraReed at 2:19 AM on November 21, 2013 [5 favorites]


If TOCATY wanted to re-rail the thread, he could talk about the OP. If he wanted to raise an issue he has with the site's culture, he could post it to MeTa, where more people would see it. But instead, he's playing Gotcha, Feminists and hoping everyone else in the thread joins in.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 4:11 AM on November 21, 2013 [9 favorites]


There's also the phenomenon that when someone makes an uncomfortable point, taking issue with their phrasing/tone/delivery is an effective way to respond without addressing the point they raised. Its a different kind of derail.
posted by headnsouth at 5:28 AM on November 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


There's a problem in addressing someone's point when it's hard to know if they've made a point, asked a question, are just being passive-aggressive or what. Ending every sentence with a question mark gets old fast. Say what you have to say, or make it clear you don't actually know the answer to the question. It's not that difficult....is it?
posted by rtha at 5:43 AM on November 21, 2013 [5 favorites]


There's also the phenomenon that when someone makes an uncomfortable point, taking issue with their phrasing/tone/delivery is an effective way to respond without addressing the point they raised. Its a different kind of derail.

And yet (a) there are more posts addressing the point than complaining about tone, and (b) there's several saying "hey, if you want to have a conversation, let's do that." Since TOCATY's response has been to just continue being passive-aggressive, it seems clear that conversation was never the point.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:49 AM on November 21, 2013


There's also the phenomenon that when someone makes an uncomfortable point, taking issue with their phrasing/tone/delivery is an effective way to respond without addressing the point they raised. Its a different kind of derail.

As far as that goes, I think psoas addressed the point well. Unfortunately, TOCATY has preferred to insinuate his argument rather than advance it, so I don't know if psoas's response had anything to do with it. Is his objection to the gonna-bite-it TMI? To the thread's objectification of men? To the thread's treating this objectification as benign when the site at large rightly treats the objectification of women as a terrible thing? All of these? None? It isn't clear. He hasn't made it clear. But if he wants to elaborate, then he can do so.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 5:50 AM on November 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


[I'm not really sure why this all became about butts either, but basically at this point if this is a site behavior that needs to be discussed, that should be a Metatalk conversation, or if people want more back and forth with TOCATY, maybe email.]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:08 AM on November 21, 2013


I'm not really sure why this all became about butts either

Because we cannot lie.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:31 AM on November 21, 2013 [5 favorites]


The booty don't lie either.
posted by rtha at 6:51 AM on November 21, 2013


The sad thing (or the great thing, if you are Ralph) is that now I cannot stop thinking about...well, you know.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:28 PM on November 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


Feminism?
posted by Artw at 7:48 PM on November 21, 2013 [3 favorites]


Sir Mix-a-Lot?
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:26 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think that women talking about being actively aroused by the male body is a feminist statement. The status quo/consensus is that women are not attracted to male bodies or only attracted to them in a vague way, or are turned on by money, power, or status. TOCATY likes to be a shit-stirrer but most of his artfully fragmentary comments do not converge to the point of actually meaning anything.

If men (or women) are uncomfortable with this they can and should start a MeTa. It's not usually fun to do so but generally that's what you do here when you have a problem, male or female. The fact that there is a new trend in entertainment toward acknowledging/pandering toward female sexuality is worth commenting on, whether positively or negatively. It's an issue in feminism for sure.

Objectification has a relatively specific meaning that I think has evolved out of a society that heavily leans toward depicting women as sex objects rather than subjects or moral actors. Objectifying men does not have the same meaning in that system, though it can have it's own meaning which would be interesting to discuss.

Anyway I'm impressed by my ability to derail so hard. Sorry though, it was a funny OP.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:19 PM on December 8, 2013 [7 favorites]


if you are a woman, you have probably been told many many times by boys/men that you don't have a real sexuality, you probably don't masturbate, why would you, you don't like sex as much as men, you don't enjoy sex as much as men, blah blah. It is hugely disenfranchising IMO. If it shouldn't be discussed here that's fine, but just popping up to do a "GOTCHA!!" is just lazy, stupid, men-appropriating-feminism once again.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:24 PM on December 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


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