Sadly entirely too accurate
November 29, 2013 2:44 AM Subscribe
"He logged onto the central network using his personal computer, and waited while the system verified his identity. With a few keystrokes he entered an electronic ticketing system, and entered the codes for his point of departure and his destination. In moments the computer displayed a list of possible flights, and he picked the earliest one. Dollars were automatically deducted from his personal account to pay for the transaction." -- If all stories were written like science fiction stories, by Mark Rosenfelder.
My sides.
posted by cthuljew at 2:57 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by cthuljew at 2:57 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Just as soon as I can wear Iphone on my wrist, Ima write a story.
posted by Anitanola at 3:07 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Anitanola at 3:07 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
A game girl.
Whoa whoa. Slow down there, Bob Guccione. Let's not tart her up like some Trixie Belden sidekick now.
posted by surplus at 3:21 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Whoa whoa. Slow down there, Bob Guccione. Let's not tart her up like some Trixie Belden sidekick now.
posted by surplus at 3:21 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
The surprisingly large passenger area was equipped with soft benches,...
So it is fiction, after all.
I really don't read SciFi that's written this way. When I encounter it, I find something else to read. There are also writers in other genres who like to use up words in this manner - war porn comes to mind.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:34 AM on November 29, 2013 [8 favorites]
So it is fiction, after all.
I really don't read SciFi that's written this way. When I encounter it, I find something else to read. There are also writers in other genres who like to use up words in this manner - war porn comes to mind.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:34 AM on November 29, 2013 [8 favorites]
Well I certainly have this conversation each time I get on a plane.
“Do you think we’ll be flying on a propeller plane? Or one of the newer jets?” asked Ann.posted by Ned G at 3:37 AM on November 29, 2013 [14 favorites]
“I’m sure it will be a jet,” said Roger. “Propeller planes are almost entirely out of date, after all. On the other hand, rocket engines are still experimental. It’s said that when they’re in general use, trips like this will take an hour at most. This one will take up to four hours.”
We entered the hotel. An older man enjoyed the massage from his chair. He should. He'd paid dearly for that. Déclassé. A couple of Asian women poked at their papers, instantly communicating their messages satellitcally to Tokyo. Sideways, I observed a man in a suit that seemed two sizes too small, but he'd had it tailored that way. He glanced in our direction and looked instantly away.
"Hmmm," I wondered.
I looked to my artificially improved companion. She looked back with love and lies. Beautiful. We approached the desk, a task which annoyed me. Why should we have to meet someone when a simple swipe of my credentity chip would suffice? Nevertheless...
posted by converge at 3:48 AM on November 29, 2013 [11 favorites]
"Hmmm," I wondered.
I looked to my artificially improved companion. She looked back with love and lies. Beautiful. We approached the desk, a task which annoyed me. Why should we have to meet someone when a simple swipe of my credentity chip would suffice? Nevertheless...
posted by converge at 3:48 AM on November 29, 2013 [11 favorites]
That was a good pastiche of late golden age SF, when writers weren't really comfortable that they'd be understood unless they really piled on the explication (not to mention the misogyny).
In some ways we've gone the other way now. Authors assume an intimate familiarity with the jargon that permeates the genre to the point that the writing becomes unintelligible to any but the most determined reader.
Despite having read SF for more than 30 years, I couldn't make much sense of Hannu Rajaniemi's first two novels. I mean, I had some sense of where the action was leading, but the sheer effort I was having to make to picture what was happening moment to moment was exhausting, and didn't really add anything to the experience of enjoying a book.
posted by pipeski at 4:05 AM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
In some ways we've gone the other way now. Authors assume an intimate familiarity with the jargon that permeates the genre to the point that the writing becomes unintelligible to any but the most determined reader.
Despite having read SF for more than 30 years, I couldn't make much sense of Hannu Rajaniemi's first two novels. I mean, I had some sense of where the action was leading, but the sheer effort I was having to make to picture what was happening moment to moment was exhausting, and didn't really add anything to the experience of enjoying a book.
posted by pipeski at 4:05 AM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
Authors assume an intimate familiarity with the jargon that permeates the genre to the point that the writing becomes unintelligible to any but the most determined reader.
There's not much about modernity that isn't unintelligible to to any but the most determined participant, particularly when you're looking at it from the outside.
posted by mhoye at 4:13 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
There's not much about modernity that isn't unintelligible to to any but the most determined participant, particularly when you're looking at it from the outside.
posted by mhoye at 4:13 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Oh. My. God.
Dan Brown needs to write sci-fi.
posted by Behemoth at 4:13 AM on November 29, 2013 [15 favorites]
Dan Brown needs to write sci-fi.
posted by Behemoth at 4:13 AM on November 29, 2013 [15 favorites]
Okay, now re-write a sci-fi novel as a romance.
posted by empath at 4:24 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by empath at 4:24 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
pipeski: "Despite having read SF for more than 30 years, I couldn't make much sense of Hannu Rajaniemi's first two novels."
Oh good, it's not just me then. I was pretty much OK with the Quantum Thief, but the Fractal Prince is proving a chore.
posted by Auz at 4:26 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh good, it's not just me then. I was pretty much OK with the Quantum Thief, but the Fractal Prince is proving a chore.
posted by Auz at 4:26 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Dan Brown needs to write sci-fi.
Robert Langdon awoke, wrapped in the cool, cream 400 thread count linen sheets that the master race of aliens, descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene, favoured. Robert Langdon stretched, knowing that beside him lay the Catholic priest's daughter, soundly asleep...
...no, can't do it any more, brain..shutting...down...self-defence...knights..templars...bzzpt, bzzpt. +++reboot world +++ +++out of cheese error+++
posted by halcyonday at 4:31 AM on November 29, 2013 [34 favorites]
Robert Langdon awoke, wrapped in the cool, cream 400 thread count linen sheets that the master race of aliens, descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene, favoured. Robert Langdon stretched, knowing that beside him lay the Catholic priest's daughter, soundly asleep...
...no, can't do it any more, brain..shutting...down...self-defence...knights..templars...bzzpt, bzzpt. +++reboot world +++ +++out of cheese error+++
posted by halcyonday at 4:31 AM on November 29, 2013 [34 favorites]
Yeah. That's what happens when sci-fi writers, in love with their own worldbuilding, are too afraid to just tell stuff about their world in narration and feel the need to convey information in dialog. The result is conversations that people in the situations in question would never, ever actually have.
Contrast Tolkien. Enormous worldbuilder. Very, very little dialog, all things considered. There are exceptions--see, e.g., the Council of Elrond--but a lot of it is just narrated. Whole chapters in The Silmirallion have only a few lines of dialog.
Granted, this can make the prose a bit hard to get through. The Silmarillion is a tough slog in places, and there's a lot of "telling" v. "showing," which contemporary composition teachers discourage. Dialog is frequently more engaging than narration.* But if it makes you write like this. . . look, just give me a quick intro paragraph about the setting and get on with it.
*It's also a lot easier to adapt into a screenplay, if you've got dollar signs on the brain.
posted by valkyryn at 4:32 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Contrast Tolkien. Enormous worldbuilder. Very, very little dialog, all things considered. There are exceptions--see, e.g., the Council of Elrond--but a lot of it is just narrated. Whole chapters in The Silmirallion have only a few lines of dialog.
Granted, this can make the prose a bit hard to get through. The Silmarillion is a tough slog in places, and there's a lot of "telling" v. "showing," which contemporary composition teachers discourage. Dialog is frequently more engaging than narration.* But if it makes you write like this. . . look, just give me a quick intro paragraph about the setting and get on with it.
*It's also a lot easier to adapt into a screenplay, if you've got dollar signs on the brain.
posted by valkyryn at 4:32 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
I sometimes speak to people as the characters do in the story, to amuse myself and for ironic purposes. I believe I started doing this after I first read this piece several years ago.
I should note that when I do this, people either roll their eyes at me or are irritated, because they think I think they are idiots.
I should really stop doing this.
posted by jscalzi at 4:41 AM on November 29, 2013 [57 favorites]
I should note that when I do this, people either roll their eyes at me or are irritated, because they think I think they are idiots.
I should really stop doing this.
posted by jscalzi at 4:41 AM on November 29, 2013 [57 favorites]
I'd love it if the "quick intro paragraph" were skipped, too, actually.
posted by kyrademon at 4:42 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 4:42 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Agreed, most sci-fi is awful. Oh the ideas are great but written with the language skills of a high school student. Asimov falls squarely into that category. I feel like I'm betraying my people by saying that but it's the truth.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 4:48 AM on November 29, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 4:48 AM on November 29, 2013 [7 favorites]
I was just talking to my brother about 2001: A Space Odyssey and how much old science fiction has people like coming out of hyperspace and then looking for quarter to make a call from a phone booth.
posted by thelonius at 4:49 AM on November 29, 2013 [11 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 4:49 AM on November 29, 2013 [11 favorites]
"most sci-fi is awful."
IT IS TERRIBLE and all the people who write it should feel terrible. "Back to word school with you!" I'd say! "Come back when you can verbinate and nounify like a grownupian!"
posted by jscalzi at 4:52 AM on November 29, 2013 [103 favorites]
IT IS TERRIBLE and all the people who write it should feel terrible. "Back to word school with you!" I'd say! "Come back when you can verbinate and nounify like a grownupian!"
posted by jscalzi at 4:52 AM on November 29, 2013 [103 favorites]
This is basically all of the Foundation trilogy. I got through it in audiobook form. I don't think I could ever, ever have actually read the text of it.
posted by cthuljew at 4:55 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by cthuljew at 4:55 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Sci fi might require extra effort to established the story's technology and vocabulary along with the usual writerly efforts to establish characters. But once that's done, you can really get on with the narrative.
posted by surplus at 4:57 AM on November 29, 2013
posted by surplus at 4:57 AM on November 29, 2013
Needs cyberpunk version!
Using the porcelain terminal, Case interfaced with the waste-processing network.
posted by acb at 5:12 AM on November 29, 2013 [68 favorites]
Using the porcelain terminal, Case interfaced with the waste-processing network.
posted by acb at 5:12 AM on November 29, 2013 [68 favorites]
which showed off her pert figure, without genetic enhancements
It's not really her *genes* that might have been enhanced, is it?
posted by Slothrup at 5:23 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's not really her *genes* that might have been enhanced, is it?
posted by Slothrup at 5:23 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
IT IS TERRIBLE and all the people who write it should feel terrible.
There is a sad truth in these words.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:24 AM on November 29, 2013
Yes, most science fiction gets clogged up with mediocre exposition if the writers become too enamoured of science at the expense of fiction. On the other hand, reading this parody should be a reminder... WE ARE LIVING IN A SCIENCE FICTION WORLD! he exclaimed as the haptic sensors on his personal radio-enabled computing device registered his input on its virtual keyboard. Satisfied he had made his point, he hit execute, sending his bit-encoded message across the worldwide distributed computer network to the community-maintained hypertext log's server in Texas.
His morning coffee had grown a bit cold in the meantime, so he decide to warm it up in the kitchen's microwave radiation oven.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:35 AM on November 29, 2013 [32 favorites]
His morning coffee had grown a bit cold in the meantime, so he decide to warm it up in the kitchen's microwave radiation oven.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:35 AM on November 29, 2013 [32 favorites]
Using the porcelain terminal, Case interfaced with the waste-processing network.
He performed a log-out procedure and then a digital wipe.
posted by Behemoth at 5:38 AM on November 29, 2013 [41 favorites]
He performed a log-out procedure and then a digital wipe.
posted by Behemoth at 5:38 AM on November 29, 2013 [41 favorites]
Dan Brown needs to write sci-fi.
The renowned door dilated.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:39 AM on November 29, 2013 [24 favorites]
The renowned door dilated.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:39 AM on November 29, 2013 [24 favorites]
Needs cyberpunk version!
All the cyberpunk parody you need is contained in the first chapter or so of The Diamond Age.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:40 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
All the cyberpunk parody you need is contained in the first chapter or so of The Diamond Age.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:40 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
To rewrite it as romance, you simply need to describe what all the women are wearing, how hot everyone is, and have your main characters flush, startle, gasp, growl and breathe heavily at the slightest provocation. The plot is largely an opportunity for people brushing up against each other, having improper thoughts, implying that they want to have intercourse, and talking about other people having intercourse, all while the author is describing how badly their exquisite clothes conceal various swelling, heaving body parts. How many chapters this goes on before it's Doing It Time depends on the author.
posted by emjaybee at 5:52 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 5:52 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
I just read the FPP to my wife. She's sitting on the sofa beside me reading Michael Connelly's "The Scarecrow." Here a passage she *just read* ...
It was almost midnight and traffic on the freeway was light. We took the 101 across the bottom of the San Fernando Valley, and down through the Cahuenga Pass. Rachel exited on Sunset Boulevard in Hollywood and headed west.
My house was on Curson, a block south of Sunset. It was a nice neighborhood, full of mostly small houses ...
I was in stitches by the end ...
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:56 AM on November 29, 2013
It was almost midnight and traffic on the freeway was light. We took the 101 across the bottom of the San Fernando Valley, and down through the Cahuenga Pass. Rachel exited on Sunset Boulevard in Hollywood and headed west.
My house was on Curson, a block south of Sunset. It was a nice neighborhood, full of mostly small houses ...
I was in stitches by the end ...
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:56 AM on November 29, 2013
Pulling towards himself the data input apparatus, Segundus noticed that the "keyboard" featured an array of alphabetic characters set out in a way derived from the typewriter, with additional modules whose descent was traceable to caculating machines.
The screen before him, a liquid-crystal based array (one hardly ever saw cathode ray tubes these days, he thought to himself) displayed each of the characters when he hit the corresponding keys, with a barely-perceptible delay. But within that tiny interval he knew that the character, in digital numeric form, had been delivered straight into the slim black box which contained his desktop computer, where it would be held in data registers until eventually progressing through a special kind of 'ethernet' cable to a network of local computers from where it turn it...
"What's that?" asked Loreena, leaning in to examine his screen, which displayed pictures and other information by means of a matrix of 'pixels', single dots of colour.
"Well. I suppose you could say it's a content management system of sorts," he replied, "pieces of text and other information are held in a database to support multi-user interface in a forum style, but while...."
"Oh, Mefi," she replied, losing interest immediately.
posted by Segundus at 6:01 AM on November 29, 2013 [71 favorites]
The screen before him, a liquid-crystal based array (one hardly ever saw cathode ray tubes these days, he thought to himself) displayed each of the characters when he hit the corresponding keys, with a barely-perceptible delay. But within that tiny interval he knew that the character, in digital numeric form, had been delivered straight into the slim black box which contained his desktop computer, where it would be held in data registers until eventually progressing through a special kind of 'ethernet' cable to a network of local computers from where it turn it...
"What's that?" asked Loreena, leaning in to examine his screen, which displayed pictures and other information by means of a matrix of 'pixels', single dots of colour.
"Well. I suppose you could say it's a content management system of sorts," he replied, "pieces of text and other information are held in a database to support multi-user interface in a forum style, but while...."
"Oh, Mefi," she replied, losing interest immediately.
posted by Segundus at 6:01 AM on November 29, 2013 [71 favorites]
Agreed, most sci-fi is awful. Oh the ideas are great but written with the language skills of a high school student. Asimov falls squarely into that category.
I don't know about "most;" I don't read most of it, and I avoid anything Asimovian, but there is, and for a long time has been a lot of SciFi that isn't written that way. Jack Vance wrote a couple of stories like that very early on, but quickly abandoned the stuff. More recently, I've been reading Kage Baker, and she definitely did not write like that. If you've stopped reading SciFi because you believe it's mostly like Asimov, I encourage you to try some different authors.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:17 AM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
I don't know about "most;" I don't read most of it, and I avoid anything Asimovian, but there is, and for a long time has been a lot of SciFi that isn't written that way. Jack Vance wrote a couple of stories like that very early on, but quickly abandoned the stuff. More recently, I've been reading Kage Baker, and she definitely did not write like that. If you've stopped reading SciFi because you believe it's mostly like Asimov, I encourage you to try some different authors.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:17 AM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
I like Asimov and wish more writers skewed towards his style rather than away.
So many sci-if authors think that a fun part of reading their books is deciphering what the fuck they're talking about at any given moment. Or that making statements about what sorts of technology we'd be using in a hundred years somehow constitutes a plot.
posted by Rory Marinich at 6:47 AM on November 29, 2013 [10 favorites]
So many sci-if authors think that a fun part of reading their books is deciphering what the fuck they're talking about at any given moment. Or that making statements about what sorts of technology we'd be using in a hundred years somehow constitutes a plot.
posted by Rory Marinich at 6:47 AM on November 29, 2013 [10 favorites]
Scifi is always at its worst when it's actually trying to predict the future, rather than doing its job and analyzing the political impact of science and technology on our own society (even if in an allegorical setting).
posted by cthuljew at 6:54 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by cthuljew at 6:54 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Asimov was an explainer par excellence, but he also never, ever shied away from big, bold, complex ideas. The problem with sci-fi isn't when a writer explains complex stuff that's outside our experience, no matter how unnatural it might seem in context; it's when the writer doesn't know when to start explaining or when to stop. Asimov always knew when to stop.
posted by mightygodking at 6:55 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by mightygodking at 6:55 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Using the porcelain terminal, Case interfaced with the waste-processing network.
After completing his evacuations, Case reached across to some thin sheets of flattened wood pulp designed to clean the body and stood up,
sat down,
stood up,
sat down,
stood up,
....[writer abandons story]
posted by ambrosen at 6:57 AM on November 29, 2013 [12 favorites]
After completing his evacuations, Case reached across to some thin sheets of flattened wood pulp designed to clean the body and
....[writer abandons story]
posted by ambrosen at 6:57 AM on November 29, 2013 [12 favorites]
I think I'd actually enjoy it if more conventional authors did a bit of "world-building" about the present-day world. Sure, if you do it for humor, you get something like this. But if you seriously stop subconsciously taking for granted the way that everything we do subtly fits together, your thoughts start to look something like this. Hmm... now that I'm trying to brainstorm examples outside non-fiction, I'm starting to suspect that the "leakage" of sci-fi style into contemporary and historical settings is why Cryptonomicon is one of my favorite books.
posted by roystgnr at 6:59 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by roystgnr at 6:59 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
Metafilter: a content management system of sorts with pieces of text and other information held in a database to support multi-user interface in a forum style.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:03 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:03 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
I could've swore there was a version of this on his personal site but no dice, his political essays have been linked before ( er, mostly by me)
posted by The Whelk at 7:25 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 7:25 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
My theory is that a lot of people on this page have not read a decent contemporary writer.
Oh, and this model of joke was originally invented by the science fiction editor John W. Campbell in the late 50s, precisely to shame writers into not doing that. I'd be surprised if you could get such work published, particularly since the original story-let is so well-known...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 7:33 AM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
Oh, and this model of joke was originally invented by the science fiction editor John W. Campbell in the late 50s, precisely to shame writers into not doing that. I'd be surprised if you could get such work published, particularly since the original story-let is so well-known...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 7:33 AM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
If we're voting, I have to speak out in defence of well-done obfuscation. Hannu Rajaniemi's books were very satisfying to me, piecing together the relationships between concepts and slowly becoming fluent. It was a passive effort which didn't require a lot of thought, but I found myself paying more attention than usual, and speculated constantly about motivations and interactions.
Not every book has to be a newspaper report written by Hemingway. It seems appropriate to sometimes feel like you're dropped in an alien world with your language and referents unmoored, because that feeling of strange, outside wonder is a big part of what sci fi has to offer.
It might be offputting, but I'll take this immersion and creativity over the early sci-fi Laundry List Of Action approach any day.
posted by forgetful snow at 7:39 AM on November 29, 2013 [11 favorites]
Not every book has to be a newspaper report written by Hemingway. It seems appropriate to sometimes feel like you're dropped in an alien world with your language and referents unmoored, because that feeling of strange, outside wonder is a big part of what sci fi has to offer.
It might be offputting, but I'll take this immersion and creativity over the early sci-fi Laundry List Of Action approach any day.
posted by forgetful snow at 7:39 AM on November 29, 2013 [11 favorites]
I read plenty of great contemporary writers who do not do this. But it's silly not to acknowledge that this is a problem with a lot of published, contemporary science fiction writing (and fantasy, too), not just ancient pulps from ye bygone days of yore. I'll pull a few random books off the shelf and thumb through them for a minute or two if you don't believe me. It won't take that long.
posted by kyrademon at 7:43 AM on November 29, 2013
posted by kyrademon at 7:43 AM on November 29, 2013
On the other hand, I wrote a YA sci-fi novel using what Jo Walton calls incluing and I got quite a few "did not finish" reviews on goodreads complaining about the lack of infodumping in the opening pages. I mean, what's with all the Jew words?! Why did people use paper?! (that one was from Kirkus, actually).
Can't really win.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:44 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
Can't really win.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:44 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
I mean, what's with all the Jew words?!
I feel somewhat afraid to ask for context.
posted by jaduncan at 7:46 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
I feel somewhat afraid to ask for context.
posted by jaduncan at 7:46 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
I like incluing, when it's done well. I also like infodumping, but ideally in the last chapter of a mystery novel where the detective (or Dumbledore) explains the plot you just read.
This parody seems much more thriller right now -- like the Connelly mention above -- than scifi.
posted by jeather at 7:47 AM on November 29, 2013
This parody seems much more thriller right now -- like the Connelly mention above -- than scifi.
posted by jeather at 7:47 AM on November 29, 2013
I feel somewhat afraid to ask for context.
Book takes place on a space ship founded by a society dedicated to preserving Jewish cultural traditions after the apocalypse. People on the ship use some Yiddish and Hebrew in their speech (and participate in skewed versions of Jewish customs), which goes unaddressed until roughly the halfway point, because the main character has grown up with this and it seems completely normal to her.
To be fair, young sci-fi readers are less likely to be accustomed to SF reading protocols. YA sci-fi tends to be a bit more infodumpy than modern adult sci-fi. Incluing necessitates a lot of trust in your audience, and also a more genre-savvy audience.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:51 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Book takes place on a space ship founded by a society dedicated to preserving Jewish cultural traditions after the apocalypse. People on the ship use some Yiddish and Hebrew in their speech (and participate in skewed versions of Jewish customs), which goes unaddressed until roughly the halfway point, because the main character has grown up with this and it seems completely normal to her.
To be fair, young sci-fi readers are less likely to be accustomed to SF reading protocols. YA sci-fi tends to be a bit more infodumpy than modern adult sci-fi. Incluing necessitates a lot of trust in your audience, and also a more genre-savvy audience.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:51 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
I just want more contemporary novels to actually take place in the contemporary period*, that is with the shifting Internet connections and online socialization, etc, etc.
I swear this is why we have so many retro pastiches on TV right now.
(I wonder if there is a similar parodic paragraph for my favorite genre, paranormal investigators...)
*Actually no I doubt cause I've been told I write " Internet interaction" well and I need an advantage.
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
I swear this is why we have so many retro pastiches on TV right now.
(I wonder if there is a similar parodic paragraph for my favorite genre, paranormal investigators...)
*Actually no I doubt cause I've been told I write " Internet interaction" well and I need an advantage.
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
This parody seems much more thriller right now ...
Yes, thrillers, too. I'm thinking of Thomas Perry, who used to handle it a lot better than he has recently.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:53 AM on November 29, 2013
Yes, thrillers, too. I'm thinking of Thomas Perry, who used to handle it a lot better than he has recently.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:53 AM on November 29, 2013
(I also like how Umberto Eco claims to hate infodumps, then gives us Buadalino, a novel made up entirely of infodumps.)
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Proper use of significant detail is a pretty easy demarcation between decent and poor writers. But every genre has its conceits. If you took all contemporary lit fic and removed every book with a professor having an affair with a student you'd have, like, 5 books left. Two of those would be set in the 30's and 40's, two would be chick lit, and the other would be a Man Booker prize winner (which would be some combination of the others).
In fairness to 'golden age' sci fi (I think we're actually in the golden age right now), those details were the milkshake that brought the boys to the yard. People read sci fi to watch people interact with the future. They still do. Just that, these days, good writers and editors toss the reader in and let them figure stuff out on their own.
posted by ghostiger at 7:59 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
In fairness to 'golden age' sci fi (I think we're actually in the golden age right now), those details were the milkshake that brought the boys to the yard. People read sci fi to watch people interact with the future. They still do. Just that, these days, good writers and editors toss the reader in and let them figure stuff out on their own.
posted by ghostiger at 7:59 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yeah, you can do this for any "genre" I think - thrillers are top of mind for me right now because I've been reading a few more than normal (I just finished one, which I borrowed from my folks because I needed a light read in between all the heavy stuff from work and then couldn't put it down because it was so horrific in terms of not on the prose but the stereotyping going on - and the plot was making me think of a certain action movie, which the author then deliberately references in the climax. So you know he was thinking about it too, in terms of the similarity. It was...bad. I'm thinking about doing my folks a favour and just forget to return it). But you can find this type of writing style pretty easily in whatever genre you care to name, along with a host of other things/conventions that can be made fun of.
I am finding I would rather focus on finding the stuff worth reading (or entertaining myself with), whatever the subject, than taking the potshots, even if it is at things we love. People like reading/watching/listening to what they like, and I've found it's pretty hard to move them away from it by mocking it but rather by noting that they like genre X and trying to introduce them to what I think are better and better examples (if I know them - when it comes to thrillers, I enjoy them, even if I'm in inwardly horrified, but I don't know if there are really well-written ones out there right now).
posted by nubs at 8:03 AM on November 29, 2013
I am finding I would rather focus on finding the stuff worth reading (or entertaining myself with), whatever the subject, than taking the potshots, even if it is at things we love. People like reading/watching/listening to what they like, and I've found it's pretty hard to move them away from it by mocking it but rather by noting that they like genre X and trying to introduce them to what I think are better and better examples (if I know them - when it comes to thrillers, I enjoy them, even if I'm in inwardly horrified, but I don't know if there are really well-written ones out there right now).
posted by nubs at 8:03 AM on November 29, 2013
I had been thinking about doing a piece along these lines. Now I guess I don't have to.
posted by Repack Rider at 8:09 AM on November 29, 2013
posted by Repack Rider at 8:09 AM on November 29, 2013
> "If you took all contemporary lit fic and removed every book with a professor having an affair with a student ..."
Oh, can we? Please?
posted by kyrademon at 8:10 AM on November 29, 2013 [21 favorites]
Oh, can we? Please?
posted by kyrademon at 8:10 AM on November 29, 2013 [21 favorites]
There are exceptions--see, e.g., the Council of Elrond--but a lot of it is just narrated. Whole chapters in The Silmirallion have only a few lines of dialog.
Just as an aside, the Silmarillion (as opposed to Lord of the Rings) was prepared from Tolkien's notes, but the actual writing was done by Guy Gavriel Kay, who has plenty of tics of his own but is a better writer than Tolkien for the most part.
Also, this is really hilarious and I wanted to reblog it, but the author has the "advertise tumblr" option enabled and it hides the regular "reblog this entry" option in the top right hand corner of my screen. I've never understood why tumblr puts "subscribe" and "reblog" on top of each other, but given that they do, I don't know why any author doesn't turn off the Tumblr ad stuff.
posted by immlass at 8:10 AM on November 29, 2013
Just as an aside, the Silmarillion (as opposed to Lord of the Rings) was prepared from Tolkien's notes, but the actual writing was done by Guy Gavriel Kay, who has plenty of tics of his own but is a better writer than Tolkien for the most part.
Also, this is really hilarious and I wanted to reblog it, but the author has the "advertise tumblr" option enabled and it hides the regular "reblog this entry" option in the top right hand corner of my screen. I've never understood why tumblr puts "subscribe" and "reblog" on top of each other, but given that they do, I don't know why any author doesn't turn off the Tumblr ad stuff.
posted by immlass at 8:10 AM on November 29, 2013
"she saw him from across the room. Suddently she was short of breath, the world seemed to tip and roll. He turned toward her, walking slowly, eyes lovingly taking in the details of her emerald ball town and fetching pink gloves. She swooned onto the fainting couch, heart racing, trying to hide her flushed face behind the lace fan when----
A harsh beep brought Bob back into reality. The elegant ballroom of the Whitmore's evapored into steam and chutes. Bob, dressed in the usual linen tunic required for Holoventures, smashed the service intercom with his fist.
"Put me back!"
The operators voice came over the speaker, he sounded young, too young for the job.
"As you know Bob, the Holoventures pods are designed to shut down if there is a any detectable health risk, that's why we're allowed to run these totally immersive virtual worlds that people like you have enough money to enjoy."
"I wasn't in danger, I was meeting the love of my life!" Bob screamed, spittle flinging from the corners of his mouth.
"But your heart rate, Blood pressure, vaso-syncope ...you where about to pass out, sir."
"What's the point of a narrative if I can't feel all the emotions!? Go figure out the technical details yourself, I'm going back in."Bob closed his eyes waited for the electric jolt that signified the Holoventure machine was warming up.
"Of course sir, we have to do anything you like because you own us because you have so much money."
Bob pressed the intercom again. "Oh and another thing."
"Yes sir."
"Pink and green are garish, I stand out like a painted hussy. I think she would favor a more demure color you think? She is after all a poor relation, maybe some basic black?"
"Yes right away sir."
posted by The Whelk at 8:16 AM on November 29, 2013 [11 favorites]
A harsh beep brought Bob back into reality. The elegant ballroom of the Whitmore's evapored into steam and chutes. Bob, dressed in the usual linen tunic required for Holoventures, smashed the service intercom with his fist.
"Put me back!"
The operators voice came over the speaker, he sounded young, too young for the job.
"As you know Bob, the Holoventures pods are designed to shut down if there is a any detectable health risk, that's why we're allowed to run these totally immersive virtual worlds that people like you have enough money to enjoy."
"I wasn't in danger, I was meeting the love of my life!" Bob screamed, spittle flinging from the corners of his mouth.
"But your heart rate, Blood pressure, vaso-syncope ...you where about to pass out, sir."
"What's the point of a narrative if I can't feel all the emotions!? Go figure out the technical details yourself, I'm going back in."Bob closed his eyes waited for the electric jolt that signified the Holoventure machine was warming up.
"Of course sir, we have to do anything you like because you own us because you have so much money."
Bob pressed the intercom again. "Oh and another thing."
"Yes sir."
"Pink and green are garish, I stand out like a painted hussy. I think she would favor a more demure color you think? She is after all a poor relation, maybe some basic black?"
"Yes right away sir."
posted by The Whelk at 8:16 AM on November 29, 2013 [11 favorites]
I would very much like some delectable health risk right now.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 8:18 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 8:18 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
My theory is that a lot of people on this page have not read a decent contemporary writer.
Yes, I will totally admit to this. I tried Asimov (barf), Dick (yum!) and Bradbury (whoo hoo!); and Heinlein & Huxley & Clarke. (Sounds like a law firm.) And you can't pull me away from my ST (TOS and TNG) marathons. Above those guys I just couldn't find one that held my imagination. Why? I am uber particular about my sci-fi. I put up with the crappy writing because there is something about the idea that they strike; it hits the ennui of suburban modern life, or the excitement of a society yet to be created, within our reach but for our own human failings. I'm a lazy reader. I'll waddle my way through Stranger in a Strange Land even though it reads like a 70s porno because of the ideas behind it. Maybe golden-age sci-fi is written so poorly because the writers just wanted to get the ideas out as concentrated as possible, and didn't worry about artistry.
The only contemporary writer I've enjoyed was Ted Chang but honestly he's not a great writer either.
And I can't laugh too much at this... any time I try to write sci-fi it comes out choppy like this anyways. Because writing is, like, hard.
tl;dr - St. Peepsburg is a massive nerdy little snowflake.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:19 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, I will totally admit to this. I tried Asimov (barf), Dick (yum!) and Bradbury (whoo hoo!); and Heinlein & Huxley & Clarke. (Sounds like a law firm.) And you can't pull me away from my ST (TOS and TNG) marathons. Above those guys I just couldn't find one that held my imagination. Why? I am uber particular about my sci-fi. I put up with the crappy writing because there is something about the idea that they strike; it hits the ennui of suburban modern life, or the excitement of a society yet to be created, within our reach but for our own human failings. I'm a lazy reader. I'll waddle my way through Stranger in a Strange Land even though it reads like a 70s porno because of the ideas behind it. Maybe golden-age sci-fi is written so poorly because the writers just wanted to get the ideas out as concentrated as possible, and didn't worry about artistry.
The only contemporary writer I've enjoyed was Ted Chang but honestly he's not a great writer either.
And I can't laugh too much at this... any time I try to write sci-fi it comes out choppy like this anyways. Because writing is, like, hard.
tl;dr - St. Peepsburg is a massive nerdy little snowflake.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:19 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, I don't want to waddle through some ginormous alterna-universe a la Lord of the Rings. Just put me in media res and get on with things.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:20 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:20 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Out of curiosity, quick random samples from my sci-fi and fantasy bookshelves, picked with my eyes closed:
* * * * *
“The dead were of three kinds. The commonest were the slip. They had no more form than a clump of roots and earth. They had no more will than hunger. Their danger was that they gathered together. Where there was one, there were usually many. The gast were different ...” Etc., etc.
I actually *love* this book and this section was the only time it really did this. But it took me straight out of the story when it did. I wish it had just cut these paragraphs. I'd have figured it out from what was going on, honest!
* * * * *
“I was a Level 2 Information Analyst, assigned to the B-MET system. Every day I tracked the relative rates of use between virtual experience technology and the transit system. Point three percent was in fact an undesirably high number of people using the B-MET to go to a real beach ...” Etc., etc.
This book wasn't great, almost entirely because, while it had a lot of great ideas, they had to fight against clunky expository writing throughout. I could have pulled a lot more exposition out of this one, and it suffered from it.
* * * * *
“Members of the eldritch community always recognize one another, and we can usually identify one another by nature or species in time. Cody knew perfectly well that I knew what he was. After all, in some circles in Pemkower, it was common knowledge …” Etc., etc.
This book was fun, but not amazing or anything. There was a lot of infodumping, but it was fairly spaced out and applied when relevant to a particular situation rather than in one massive here-is-the-world introduction. It felt like a shortcut and sometimes a crutch the author was using, but certainly didn't wreck the story.
No real point I'm trying to make; I'd just made myself curious.
posted by kyrademon at 8:21 AM on November 29, 2013
* * * * *
“The dead were of three kinds. The commonest were the slip. They had no more form than a clump of roots and earth. They had no more will than hunger. Their danger was that they gathered together. Where there was one, there were usually many. The gast were different ...” Etc., etc.
I actually *love* this book and this section was the only time it really did this. But it took me straight out of the story when it did. I wish it had just cut these paragraphs. I'd have figured it out from what was going on, honest!
* * * * *
“I was a Level 2 Information Analyst, assigned to the B-MET system. Every day I tracked the relative rates of use between virtual experience technology and the transit system. Point three percent was in fact an undesirably high number of people using the B-MET to go to a real beach ...” Etc., etc.
This book wasn't great, almost entirely because, while it had a lot of great ideas, they had to fight against clunky expository writing throughout. I could have pulled a lot more exposition out of this one, and it suffered from it.
* * * * *
“Members of the eldritch community always recognize one another, and we can usually identify one another by nature or species in time. Cody knew perfectly well that I knew what he was. After all, in some circles in Pemkower, it was common knowledge …” Etc., etc.
This book was fun, but not amazing or anything. There was a lot of infodumping, but it was fairly spaced out and applied when relevant to a particular situation rather than in one massive here-is-the-world introduction. It felt like a shortcut and sometimes a crutch the author was using, but certainly didn't wreck the story.
No real point I'm trying to make; I'd just made myself curious.
posted by kyrademon at 8:21 AM on November 29, 2013
I know I'm in a minority here but I actually love long expository passages, especially if they're filtered through the observations of an interesting character. I'm currently working my way through Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy (my second attempt -- enjoying it much more as an adult than I did as a teenager, now that I can relate better to the characters) which consists mainly of various POV characters gazing at scenery and having Feelings about it. The scenery is lovingly described in that dry, longwinded manner characteristic of hard SF -- but KSR, excellent writer that he is, makes it come alive and imbues it with meaning and power via the thoughts of the complex and troubled people who make up the series' cast. Even when he's writing straight narration there are subtle shifts of diction and focus that remind you that you're looking at Mars through the eyes of Sax, or Ann, or Nirgal. Many pages can go by without a single line of dialogue, everything happening inside the head of whichever characters as they brood about the landscape, or politics, or technology. I love it.
The same goes for SF's sibling genre. In well-written Fantasy I will happily devour page after page of description of heraldry, or fortifications, or the way that the autumn light filters through the leaves of a magical forest in the evening. If it's done well it really helps me escape into the author's world and see through the eyes of their characters.
The characters have to be interesting though! I have zero time for flat, cliche cutouts with no originality or tension, or for characters that serve only as vessels for whatever sociocultural perspective it is that the author is trying to sell. (Especially since those perspectives are almost inevitably despicable -- yes Heinlein, I'm looking at you.) Give me characters who are alive and complex and who have interesting thoughts about what's going on around them, who develop and change in response to the world in which they live and who seek to change that world and make it better fit their vision, and I will gladly lap up entire chapters of detailed exposition as it plays out minute by minute. It turns the world of the book into a character of its own, and makes it real and compelling. I love that.
posted by Scientist at 8:22 AM on November 29, 2013 [10 favorites]
The same goes for SF's sibling genre. In well-written Fantasy I will happily devour page after page of description of heraldry, or fortifications, or the way that the autumn light filters through the leaves of a magical forest in the evening. If it's done well it really helps me escape into the author's world and see through the eyes of their characters.
The characters have to be interesting though! I have zero time for flat, cliche cutouts with no originality or tension, or for characters that serve only as vessels for whatever sociocultural perspective it is that the author is trying to sell. (Especially since those perspectives are almost inevitably despicable -- yes Heinlein, I'm looking at you.) Give me characters who are alive and complex and who have interesting thoughts about what's going on around them, who develop and change in response to the world in which they live and who seek to change that world and make it better fit their vision, and I will gladly lap up entire chapters of detailed exposition as it plays out minute by minute. It turns the world of the book into a character of its own, and makes it real and compelling. I love that.
posted by Scientist at 8:22 AM on November 29, 2013 [10 favorites]
This is basically all of the Foundation trilogy.
Wasn't that the one about needing enough uranium to transport tons of microfilm across interstellar space?
I just couldn't get into it.
posted by General Tonic at 8:25 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Wasn't that the one about needing enough uranium to transport tons of microfilm across interstellar space?
I just couldn't get into it.
posted by General Tonic at 8:25 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
I was just talking to my brother about 2001: A Space Odyssey and how much old science fiction has people like coming out of hyperspace and then looking for quarter to make a call from a phone booth.
My father (a Beowulf scholar) was once asked for his opinion on a cyberpunk version of Beowulf that a student had written. He gave it to me to read, because he'd never read any cyberpunk.
The dragon at the end was mechanical, and attacked the city with hypodermic needles filled with HIV launched out of its tail. Beowulf (a computer hacker) defeated the dragon by uploading a specially-engineered computer virus to it. This virus was stored on 3 1/4" floppy disks.
posted by rifflesby at 8:29 AM on November 29, 2013 [9 favorites]
My father (a Beowulf scholar) was once asked for his opinion on a cyberpunk version of Beowulf that a student had written. He gave it to me to read, because he'd never read any cyberpunk.
The dragon at the end was mechanical, and attacked the city with hypodermic needles filled with HIV launched out of its tail. Beowulf (a computer hacker) defeated the dragon by uploading a specially-engineered computer virus to it. This virus was stored on 3 1/4" floppy disks.
posted by rifflesby at 8:29 AM on November 29, 2013 [9 favorites]
I know I'm in a minority here but I actually love long expository passages, especially if they're filtered through the observations of an interesting character.
Ha ha, every science fiction reader thinks this and they're all wrong: we all like long winded exposition. How else to explain David "let's describe the fate of every single one of the 56,1789 missiles launched during this one space battle in a pages long infodump" Weber's sales?
posted by MartinWisse at 8:32 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Ha ha, every science fiction reader thinks this and they're all wrong: we all like long winded exposition. How else to explain David "let's describe the fate of every single one of the 56,1789 missiles launched during this one space battle in a pages long infodump" Weber's sales?
posted by MartinWisse at 8:32 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Huh. So, I've read this story before, but I never knew that Zomp wrote it. Now I feel dumb.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:34 AM on November 29, 2013
posted by jacquilynne at 8:34 AM on November 29, 2013
Don't like science fiction? Try speculative fiction! It's all the rage (at least among those writers who don't want to be cast into the sic fi ghetto)!
It's not always about the writing style. (Although that FPP parody does point at the shortcomings of a lot of sci fi.) PKD, one of my favorite writers, hardly takes many writerly chances. Even Kafka, probably my favorite writer, is aiming at a target way off from where traditional writers are aiming. Where that is is hard to verbalize, though. And Dostoevsky was not know as a great stylist in the Russian language, or so I hear. Now, Chekov is great in any language.
Sometimes I like wild leaps into new linguistic territory: Bruno Schulz, the most synesthetic of all writers, period - whose life was brutally ended by a Nazi's pistol - does this for me. So does Ben Marcus (notably in Notable American Women). And DFW for some people. Pynchon for others.
And etc.: sometimes we want page-tuners (although I can't turn two pages of Dan Brown); sometimes we want ideas - especially in science fiction - and can excuse less than masterful wordsmithing.
posted by kozad at 8:34 AM on November 29, 2013
It's not always about the writing style. (Although that FPP parody does point at the shortcomings of a lot of sci fi.) PKD, one of my favorite writers, hardly takes many writerly chances. Even Kafka, probably my favorite writer, is aiming at a target way off from where traditional writers are aiming. Where that is is hard to verbalize, though. And Dostoevsky was not know as a great stylist in the Russian language, or so I hear. Now, Chekov is great in any language.
Sometimes I like wild leaps into new linguistic territory: Bruno Schulz, the most synesthetic of all writers, period - whose life was brutally ended by a Nazi's pistol - does this for me. So does Ben Marcus (notably in Notable American Women). And DFW for some people. Pynchon for others.
And etc.: sometimes we want page-tuners (although I can't turn two pages of Dan Brown); sometimes we want ideas - especially in science fiction - and can excuse less than masterful wordsmithing.
posted by kozad at 8:34 AM on November 29, 2013
Also, I don't want to waddle through some ginormous alterna-universe a la Lord of the Rings. Just put me in media res and get on with things.
I was going to say Wolfe, but if you're not looking for description and detail, he's not for you. Michael Swanwick is really good at shorts, but I like his novels very much as well. Stations of the Tide to startm maybe?
posted by bonehead at 8:35 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
I was going to say Wolfe, but if you're not looking for description and detail, he's not for you. Michael Swanwick is really good at shorts, but I like his novels very much as well. Stations of the Tide to startm maybe?
posted by bonehead at 8:35 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Fantasy is no better of course:
posted by MartinWisse at 8:35 AM on November 29, 2013 [14 favorites]
“Some coffee, Mr. Covenant?”(From a long vanished Joel Baxter post in rec.arts.sf.written a decade or so ago.)
“No!” he panted, glaring. The gelid liquid was anthraciously black, atramentous, nigrescent as his carious and macerated soul. “No,” he groaned. “Do you hear? I will not!” Shaking, he fumbled for his empty mug, clawing at it with numb hands like blocks of rotted wood. Finally, gasping, he closed his fingers on the malefic vessel, upending it, then ramming it downward to the table again… violently stopping the irrefragable, ineluctable maw with intransigent formica. The sudden whipcrack sound threw a refulgent oriflamme of pain across his sight, and he closed his eyes with a febrile shudder. “No,” he whispered. No more. No more.
“All righty then, I’ll be right back with your check!”
posted by MartinWisse at 8:35 AM on November 29, 2013 [14 favorites]
Great, now I'm paranoid that I don't have enough breathless description. I come from a screenwriting/comic book background, as few words and descriptions as humanly possible.
Maybe I should reread the best selling author/screenwriters ( Levin, Goldman, etc) see how they do it.
posted by The Whelk at 8:37 AM on November 29, 2013
Maybe I should reread the best selling author/screenwriters ( Levin, Goldman, etc) see how they do it.
posted by The Whelk at 8:37 AM on November 29, 2013
> "I know I'm in a minority here but I actually love long expository passages, especially if they're filtered through the observations of an interesting character."
Hmm. What we're talking about isn't really in-character descriptions of scenery or autumn light. It's a particular kind of exposition. I've heard it called "bald exposition" or, in the context of theater, "as-you-know dialogue", because the stereotype has it being delivered in the following way:
ED: As you know, Bob, Mary Sinclare was murdered last night.
BOB: Yes, Ed, but as you know, she was in a room that was locked from the inside.
ED: True, Bob, and as you know, she was the only one with a key to that room.
The obvious question here being, why are the characters telling each other things they already know? The answer, unless it's actually satire, is that the author couldn't think of a way to convey the information to the audience in a more naturalistic manner. It's weird and clunky and obviously only there to convey information.
It can go down exactly that way in the sci-fi and fantasy genres if it's conveyed like that in dialogue, but it also can be a problem if it's simply descriptive narration. Telling the reader something baldly, rather than telling another character, still is most often the result of an author who can't figure out a better way to do it. While no one specific is saying anything bizarre, it drops many people right out of the story if everything has to be paused for a scientific or anthropological disquisition that has nothing to do with the characters or the plot. The more organically information can be included, the less it takes away from the story.
So basically, even if you love seven pages of "Cilandriel loved the way the fading light turned the leaves of the mimmirel trees a brilliant scarlet," you might still get annoyed by seven pages of "Mimmirel trees are a plant found in the forest of Yold which the elves use for clothing, furniture, and their valuable scarlet leaves, the principle export of Yold."
posted by kyrademon at 8:40 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
Hmm. What we're talking about isn't really in-character descriptions of scenery or autumn light. It's a particular kind of exposition. I've heard it called "bald exposition" or, in the context of theater, "as-you-know dialogue", because the stereotype has it being delivered in the following way:
ED: As you know, Bob, Mary Sinclare was murdered last night.
BOB: Yes, Ed, but as you know, she was in a room that was locked from the inside.
ED: True, Bob, and as you know, she was the only one with a key to that room.
The obvious question here being, why are the characters telling each other things they already know? The answer, unless it's actually satire, is that the author couldn't think of a way to convey the information to the audience in a more naturalistic manner. It's weird and clunky and obviously only there to convey information.
It can go down exactly that way in the sci-fi and fantasy genres if it's conveyed like that in dialogue, but it also can be a problem if it's simply descriptive narration. Telling the reader something baldly, rather than telling another character, still is most often the result of an author who can't figure out a better way to do it. While no one specific is saying anything bizarre, it drops many people right out of the story if everything has to be paused for a scientific or anthropological disquisition that has nothing to do with the characters or the plot. The more organically information can be included, the less it takes away from the story.
So basically, even if you love seven pages of "Cilandriel loved the way the fading light turned the leaves of the mimmirel trees a brilliant scarlet," you might still get annoyed by seven pages of "Mimmirel trees are a plant found in the forest of Yold which the elves use for clothing, furniture, and their valuable scarlet leaves, the principle export of Yold."
posted by kyrademon at 8:40 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
because the stereotype has it being delivered in the following way:
ED: As you know, Bob, Mary Sinclare was murdered last night.
Ha. I found the original link on this Librarything profile page.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:46 AM on November 29, 2013
ED: As you know, Bob, Mary Sinclare was murdered last night.
Ha. I found the original link on this Librarything profile page.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:46 AM on November 29, 2013
Suggestions for good science fictions writers, I am asked...
I'm actually only going to post "classic" writers. There are a ton of good contemporary writers but, well, my heart is with the classics.
I'm a huge fan of Gene Wolfe. Oblique, stylized, emotionally intense...
I'd suggest "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" to start with - a collection of short stories... I have a PDF of the title story, which I'd send to anyone who promised to buy more work of his if they liked it. It opens:
I'm also a huge fan of Fritz Leiber - inventive and luscious prose. "The Wanderer" reads like a contemporary thriller to start with, particularly the "numerous point of view" aspect, but then gets strange and lovely:
For some reason, a lot of "serious" literary people like Philip K. Dick. While I like his work, I find his prose a bit clunky.
I'm a fan also of some of the UK "new wave" writers - but perhaps the less extreme such writers - Christopher Priest and Ian Watson spring to mind. I'd suggest Priest's "Inverted World" and Watson's "The Very Slow Time Machine".
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:53 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
I'm actually only going to post "classic" writers. There are a ton of good contemporary writers but, well, my heart is with the classics.
I'm a huge fan of Gene Wolfe. Oblique, stylized, emotionally intense...
I'd suggest "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" to start with - a collection of short stories... I have a PDF of the title story, which I'd send to anyone who promised to buy more work of his if they liked it. It opens:
When I was a boy my brother David and I had to go to bed early whether we were sleepy or not. In summer particularly, bedtime often came before sunset; and because our dormitory was in the east wing of the house, with a broad window facing the central courtyard and thus looking west, the hard, pinkish light sometimes streamed infor hours while we lay staring out at my father’s crippled monkey perched on a flaking parapet, or telling stories, one led to another, with soundless gestures.His magnum opus is The Book of the New Sun, which is a tremendous read once you get into it.
I'm also a huge fan of Fritz Leiber - inventive and luscious prose. "The Wanderer" reads like a contemporary thriller to start with, particularly the "numerous point of view" aspect, but then gets strange and lovely:
From his lonely mesa, Asa Holcomb saw the stars near the moon shake, as if a fanfare were being blown through the cosmos. Then a great golden and purple gateway four times as wide as the moon opened in the heavens there, pushing the blackness aside; and Asa strained eagerly toward it, and his heart swelled with the wonder and majesty of it, and his aorta tore all the way, and he died.Yes, these two paragraphs are right beside each other in the original - we've been following these characters before that point... though Asa Holcomb's story essentially ends there (well, very near the end of the book we get: "On the sunbeaten mesa in Arizona, as if it were a Parsi Tower of Silence, vultures tore away the last shreds of the flesh of Asa Holcomb's face, laying wholly bare the beautiful grinning red bone.") Pretty astonishing writing for 1965...
Sally Harris saw the stars squiggle just as she and Jake, momentarily shedding thirty pounds of weight apiece, started to come atop the sixth summit of the Ten-Stage Rocket at Coney Island. In the blind egoistic world of sexual fulfillment that lies exactly on the boundary between the conscious and unconscious regions of the mind, she knew that the stars were a provincial district of herself—the Marches of Sally Harris—and so she merely chortled throatily: "I did it, Christ! I said I'd do it and I did it!"
For some reason, a lot of "serious" literary people like Philip K. Dick. While I like his work, I find his prose a bit clunky.
I'm a fan also of some of the UK "new wave" writers - but perhaps the less extreme such writers - Christopher Priest and Ian Watson spring to mind. I'd suggest Priest's "Inverted World" and Watson's "The Very Slow Time Machine".
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:53 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
If we're voting, I have to speak out in defence of well-done obfuscation. Hannu Rajaniemi's books were very satisfying to me, piecing together the relationships between concepts and slowly becoming fluent.
Absolutely. Samuel R. Delany wrote a great piece I half-remember about sf being the only genre that engages its readers actively, because they have to fill in the gaps and imagine the world more fully from the offhanded references the author drops.
The gap between this view of the genre and how she is actually practiced is most of the reason* why I was an avid reader of the stuff as a teenager and rarely read it now, 25 years later: far too many writers (or perhaps, their editors) insist on spelling everything out in tedious detail. This genre which should be the most unrestrained and ambitious in scope instead pats you on the hand and reassures you that you will find nothing challenging or confusing here. There are a few exceptions, of course, but for pleasure I would much rather read decades-old Vance or Silverberg than almost anything new off the shelf today.
*The rest is probably the cargo-cult approach to planning a narrative that tells bad writers and marketers that everything has to be part of at least a trilogy, because Tolkien wrote a trilogy (he didn't). I cannot count how many times I have been idly browsing the fantasy/sf shelves of a bookstore when I pick something up in mild interest, read the tiny type beneath the title BOOK 5 OF CYCLE 3 OF THE CHRONICLES OF EHLASSANDRA and put it back again.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:57 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Absolutely. Samuel R. Delany wrote a great piece I half-remember about sf being the only genre that engages its readers actively, because they have to fill in the gaps and imagine the world more fully from the offhanded references the author drops.
The gap between this view of the genre and how she is actually practiced is most of the reason* why I was an avid reader of the stuff as a teenager and rarely read it now, 25 years later: far too many writers (or perhaps, their editors) insist on spelling everything out in tedious detail. This genre which should be the most unrestrained and ambitious in scope instead pats you on the hand and reassures you that you will find nothing challenging or confusing here. There are a few exceptions, of course, but for pleasure I would much rather read decades-old Vance or Silverberg than almost anything new off the shelf today.
*The rest is probably the cargo-cult approach to planning a narrative that tells bad writers and marketers that everything has to be part of at least a trilogy, because Tolkien wrote a trilogy (he didn't). I cannot count how many times I have been idly browsing the fantasy/sf shelves of a bookstore when I pick something up in mild interest, read the tiny type beneath the title BOOK 5 OF CYCLE 3 OF THE CHRONICLES OF EHLASSANDRA and put it back again.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:57 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Neal Stephenson at least treats the techy and the banal with the same degree of exposition. Compare and contrast his treatment of the open-source Finux, the cereal Cap'n Crunch, and the ichorous hydraulics of the human body featured in Cryptonomicon. Cite concrete examples and use standard essay form. (15 pts)
posted by infinitewindow at 8:58 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 8:58 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Oh, and how can I forget John Brunner? Pretty well everything he wrote is an excellent read - particularly "Stand On Zanzibar", "The Shockwave Rider" and his overlooked classic, "The Whole Man", which generally moves me to tears (the main character is the world's greatest telepathist, but he's also a crippled dwarf with hemophilia):
There were angry voices, raised to try and stop somebody.I'd also recommend his overlooked, "The Traveler in Black", one of his few fantasy stories - strange and yet relentlessly logical:
There were running feet, light and muffled on the sound-absorbent floor. There was a hammering on the outermost of the soundproof doors, and a thin, barely heard scream.
The watchdog, still in shock, made two steps towards the door, jerking like a badly-manipulated puppet. Singh turned slowly, preconceived words about silence and danger dying as he sensed the truth and tried to remember what hope was like.
Then the doors slammed back and the giant came in, weeping, limping, and barely five feet tall.
He had many names, but one nature, and this unique nature made him subject to certain laws not binding upon ordinary persons. In a compensatory fashion, he was also free from certain other laws more commonly in force.posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:06 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Still, there was nothing to choose as regards rigidity between his particular set of laws and those others. And one rule by which he had very strictly to abide was that at set seasons he should overlook that portion of the All which had been allotted to him as his individual responsibility.
Accordingly, on the day after the conjunction of four significant planets in that vicinity, he set forth on a journey which was to be at once the same as and yet different from those many which had preceded it.
It had been ordained that at this time, unless there were some pressing reason to the contrary, he should tramp along commonplace roads, and with goodwill enough-it was not a constituent of his nature that he should rail against necessity-he so arranged his route that it wound and turned and curved through all those zones where he might be made answerable for events, and ended within a short distance of where it had begun. It ended, to be precise, at the city called Ryovora: that place of all places in his domains where people had their heads screwed on the right way.
The obvious question here being, why are the characters telling each other things they already know? The answer, unless it's actually satire, is that the author couldn't think of a way to convey the information to the audience in a more naturalistic manner. It's weird and clunky and obviously only there to convey information.
. . . hello, most books with an amnesia plotline. (A few do it well -- I liked The Rook -- but mostly they're beyond irritating.)
I actually *love* this book and this section was the only time it really did this. But it took me straight out of the story when it did. I wish it had just cut these paragraphs. I'd have figured it out from what was going on, honest!
I liked that book too! I absolutely recognised it from the first sentence there. (I liked the first book better, though, because it had Taggle.)
The rest is probably the cargo-cult approach to planning a narrative that tells bad writers and marketers that everything has to be part of at least a trilogy
Even books which aren't natural trilogies are just cut up and split into three. For all the problems with Twilight, it didn't do this.
posted by jeather at 9:06 AM on November 29, 2013
. . . hello, most books with an amnesia plotline. (A few do it well -- I liked The Rook -- but mostly they're beyond irritating.)
I actually *love* this book and this section was the only time it really did this. But it took me straight out of the story when it did. I wish it had just cut these paragraphs. I'd have figured it out from what was going on, honest!
I liked that book too! I absolutely recognised it from the first sentence there. (I liked the first book better, though, because it had Taggle.)
The rest is probably the cargo-cult approach to planning a narrative that tells bad writers and marketers that everything has to be part of at least a trilogy
Even books which aren't natural trilogies are just cut up and split into three. For all the problems with Twilight, it didn't do this.
posted by jeather at 9:06 AM on November 29, 2013
"Trilogy fatigue" is very much a thing that both genre readers and editors talk a lot about right now. I suspect the weariness is exacerbated by certain realities of the business; authors are told not to plan for three books, because who knows how the first will sell? But then, if the first is successful, they're often asked to open what was once a closed narrative back up for two more books.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:11 AM on November 29, 2013
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:11 AM on November 29, 2013
> ". . . hello, most books with an amnesia plotline."
And don't forget the classic "Rookie" character, who exists solely as an exposition receptacle. "What, you don't even know how a Class V Overthruster Plotdevice works, New Kid? Well, then I'd better explain that to you in painstaking detail."
> "I liked the first book better, though, because it had Taggle."
Well, yes. Taggle is awesome.
posted by kyrademon at 9:28 AM on November 29, 2013
And don't forget the classic "Rookie" character, who exists solely as an exposition receptacle. "What, you don't even know how a Class V Overthruster Plotdevice works, New Kid? Well, then I'd better explain that to you in painstaking detail."
> "I liked the first book better, though, because it had Taggle."
Well, yes. Taggle is awesome.
posted by kyrademon at 9:28 AM on November 29, 2013
Honestly, I love a good infodump. There's nothing wrong with taking a few pages to tell me what the world is like. I just wish more authors could do it with good, engaging, readable style.
I mean, I'll sit still for hours while John McPhee spits facts at me about the geology or cultural and sociopolitical history of the actual world. Why wouldn't I sit still for a few pages to hear the same thing about a fictional world? You don't even have to be as good as John McPhee — just be closer to McPhee than to Dan Brown and I'll be satisfied. (Ursula LeGuinn and Iain M. Banks come to mind as authors who easily exceed that standard, and I find their expository writing totally lovely and not at all distracting.)
Though oh man if there was a sci-fi John McPhee I'd be all over that. Or a sci-fi Barbara Ehrenreich, or a sci-fi Joan Didion, or a sci-fi Lester Bangs, or....
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:37 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
I mean, I'll sit still for hours while John McPhee spits facts at me about the geology or cultural and sociopolitical history of the actual world. Why wouldn't I sit still for a few pages to hear the same thing about a fictional world? You don't even have to be as good as John McPhee — just be closer to McPhee than to Dan Brown and I'll be satisfied. (Ursula LeGuinn and Iain M. Banks come to mind as authors who easily exceed that standard, and I find their expository writing totally lovely and not at all distracting.)
Though oh man if there was a sci-fi John McPhee I'd be all over that. Or a sci-fi Barbara Ehrenreich, or a sci-fi Joan Didion, or a sci-fi Lester Bangs, or....
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:37 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Basically sounds like you want a nonfiction author for an Sci-fi world which is..... Something I also want.
posted by The Whelk at 9:39 AM on November 29, 2013
posted by The Whelk at 9:39 AM on November 29, 2013
The rest is probably the cargo-cult approach to planning a narrative that tells bad writers and marketers that everything has to be part of at least a trilogy.
My biggest problem with trilogies is that a lot of them aren't; they're one long novel split into three books, or even two novels split into three. (Connie Willis did this with Blackout/All Clear, but she's not the only one. My GR reviews are filled with "this is actually only the first third of a story".)
Taggle is awesome.
Taggle is also why I won't reread that first book ever again.
I feel like you could suggest all sorts of lesser known books I might like, kyrademon.
posted by jeather at 9:44 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
My biggest problem with trilogies is that a lot of them aren't; they're one long novel split into three books, or even two novels split into three. (Connie Willis did this with Blackout/All Clear, but she's not the only one. My GR reviews are filled with "this is actually only the first third of a story".)
Taggle is awesome.
Taggle is also why I won't reread that first book ever again.
I feel like you could suggest all sorts of lesser known books I might like, kyrademon.
posted by jeather at 9:44 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Basically sounds like you want a nonfiction author for an Sci-fi world which is..... Something I also want.
Yes! Exactly! I mean, doing a bunch of worldbuilding and then hiding it cleverly behind a plot is cool too. But it's odd that you're expected to hide it, and that just laying it out clearly and elegantly isn't really respected in the same way.
LeGuinn's got a book called Always Coming Home that comes close to what I'm talking about — it's basically written as a piece of straight ethnography, only about a culture that doesn't exist. I love that book to death, though admittedly I like a lot of her other stuff better (and it's one of the least popular things she's ever written).
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:44 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yes! Exactly! I mean, doing a bunch of worldbuilding and then hiding it cleverly behind a plot is cool too. But it's odd that you're expected to hide it, and that just laying it out clearly and elegantly isn't really respected in the same way.
LeGuinn's got a book called Always Coming Home that comes close to what I'm talking about — it's basically written as a piece of straight ethnography, only about a culture that doesn't exist. I love that book to death, though admittedly I like a lot of her other stuff better (and it's one of the least popular things she's ever written).
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:44 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yes! Exactly! I mean, doing a bunch of worldbuilding and then hiding it cleverly behind a plot is cool too. But it's odd that you're expected to hide it, and that just laying it out clearly and elegantly isn't really respected in the same way.
LeGuinn's got a book called Always Coming Home that comes close to what I'm talking about — it's basically written as a piece of straight ethnography, only about a culture that doesn't exist. I love that book to death, though admittedly I like a lot of her other stuff better (and it's one of the least popular things she's ever written).
For me it's all pretty much a function of the narration and POV character. Character knowledge is an aspect of voice, more or less and whether it's successful depends on the synthesis of many aspects of a book. Sometimes infodumps work beautifully for a book (Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell has the perfect framing device for lots and lots of extraneous information), others, not so much.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:10 AM on November 29, 2013
LeGuinn's got a book called Always Coming Home that comes close to what I'm talking about — it's basically written as a piece of straight ethnography, only about a culture that doesn't exist. I love that book to death, though admittedly I like a lot of her other stuff better (and it's one of the least popular things she's ever written).
For me it's all pretty much a function of the narration and POV character. Character knowledge is an aspect of voice, more or less and whether it's successful depends on the synthesis of many aspects of a book. Sometimes infodumps work beautifully for a book (Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell has the perfect framing device for lots and lots of extraneous information), others, not so much.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:10 AM on November 29, 2013
> "Character knowledge is an aspect of voice ... Sometimes infodumps work beautifully for a book ..."
That's fair.
posted by kyrademon at 10:15 AM on November 29, 2013
That's fair.
posted by kyrademon at 10:15 AM on November 29, 2013
sic fi
This typo makes me very happy, and I think I might try to use it as a tag for the kind of SF that one is embarrassed to quote because the prose is so lumpish. [Sic] Fiction.
posted by RogerB at 10:22 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
This typo makes me very happy, and I think I might try to use it as a tag for the kind of SF that one is embarrassed to quote because the prose is so lumpish. [Sic] Fiction.
posted by RogerB at 10:22 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Dialog is frequently more engaging than narration.*
This is what I love about this place, I’d never really thought about that. One of those ways that people respond differently to things.
I don’t like like a lot of dialog, it’s confusing to me and gets tedious. This is like when there was a discussion here about lists and long descriptions in books, which I had always assumed everyone hated. I had no idea that some people actually enjoyed that, I thought it was just something we all had to get through.
And don't forget the classic "Rookie" character, who exists solely as an exposition receptacle. "What, you don't even know how a Class V Overthruster Plotdevice works, New Kid? Well, then I'd better explain that to you in painstaking detail."
Yes, I saw "Inception" too.
"If you took all contemporary lit fic and removed every book with a professor having an affair with a student ..."
Oh, can we? Please?
God yes. Pool guy and morning drinker bored housewife is all you really need.
posted by bongo_x at 10:31 AM on November 29, 2013
This is what I love about this place, I’d never really thought about that. One of those ways that people respond differently to things.
I don’t like like a lot of dialog, it’s confusing to me and gets tedious. This is like when there was a discussion here about lists and long descriptions in books, which I had always assumed everyone hated. I had no idea that some people actually enjoyed that, I thought it was just something we all had to get through.
And don't forget the classic "Rookie" character, who exists solely as an exposition receptacle. "What, you don't even know how a Class V Overthruster Plotdevice works, New Kid? Well, then I'd better explain that to you in painstaking detail."
Yes, I saw "Inception" too.
"If you took all contemporary lit fic and removed every book with a professor having an affair with a student ..."
Oh, can we? Please?
God yes. Pool guy and morning drinker bored housewife is all you really need.
posted by bongo_x at 10:31 AM on November 29, 2013
Dialog is frequently more engaging than narration.*
This is what I love about this place, I’d never really thought about that. One of those ways that people respond differently to things.
I don’t like like a lot of dialog, it’s confusing to me and gets tedious. This is like when there was a discussion here about lists and long descriptions in books, which I had always assumed everyone hated. I had no idea that some people actually enjoyed that, I thought it was just something we all had to get through.
I think, if you haven't already, you should read Excession. Though others would probably point to different intro-to-Iain-Banks novels.
There's some really good Sci-Fi… and yeah, there's this by the truck full.
posted by Slackermagee at 10:35 AM on November 29, 2013
This is what I love about this place, I’d never really thought about that. One of those ways that people respond differently to things.
I don’t like like a lot of dialog, it’s confusing to me and gets tedious. This is like when there was a discussion here about lists and long descriptions in books, which I had always assumed everyone hated. I had no idea that some people actually enjoyed that, I thought it was just something we all had to get through.
I think, if you haven't already, you should read Excession. Though others would probably point to different intro-to-Iain-Banks novels.
There's some really good Sci-Fi… and yeah, there's this by the truck full.
posted by Slackermagee at 10:35 AM on November 29, 2013
This typo makes me very happy, and I think I might try to use it as a tag for the kind of SF that one is embarrassed to quote because the prose is so lumpish.
See also SF about eternal time loops, or also _The Neverending Story_: Semper fi.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:19 AM on November 29, 2013
See also SF about eternal time loops, or also _The Neverending Story_: Semper fi.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:19 AM on November 29, 2013
I tend to cringe, regardless of the genre, when I see "A/An XXXXXXXXXXX Novel".
posted by Samizdata at 11:34 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Samizdata at 11:34 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
the main character is the world's greatest telepathist, but he's also a crippled dwarf with hemophilia
This is what happens when people write up their GURPS campaign.
posted by bleep-blop at 11:38 AM on November 29, 2013 [7 favorites]
This is what happens when people write up their GURPS campaign.
posted by bleep-blop at 11:38 AM on November 29, 2013 [7 favorites]
Now there are two, Always Coming Home is like a sort of bible for me these days; I read a bit of it now and then and chew over it for a while. I don't like everything in it, but Stone Telling's story and all the little descriptions of ritual are just lovely. I want them to be real.
There are other authors who have done the faux-history thing as a form of infodump, though; disguising a chapter of information as a fake (and sometimes inaccurate) chapter of history about your character's world is a fun way to do that.
posted by emjaybee at 12:29 PM on November 29, 2013
There are other authors who have done the faux-history thing as a form of infodump, though; disguising a chapter of information as a fake (and sometimes inaccurate) chapter of history about your character's world is a fun way to do that.
posted by emjaybee at 12:29 PM on November 29, 2013
kyrademon: "Hmm. What we're talking about isn't really in-character descriptions of scenery or autumn light. It's a particular kind of exposition."
Hmm, I guess you're right. I think I was a little confused because I've been so deep in the Mars trilogy. That series has a lot of what might arguably be considered "bald exposition". I think it gets a pass though, in part because it's a hard SF series about the near-future colonization of Mars which spans a couple hundred years, and one where many of the characters are scientists of one stripe or another, so naturally a lot of what the characters notice and react to is the minutia of technological, geological, ecological, cultural, and political detail.
The other part of the reason I would give it a pass is that all of this detail is genuinely novel to those characters, so it makes sense that they would be thinking and talking about it, and also Kim Stanley Robinson manages to convincingly portray that detail in a way that makes the reader (well, it works for me at least) understand why the POV character would find it interesting.
Plus, if you're the kind of reader who likes their SF on the hard side with lots of convincingly-plausible science and technology in it, and who also likes seeing plausible, detailed portrayals of the ways in which people and cultures shape and are shaped by science and technology (and their environments), that sort of minutia is probably one of the things that you're specifically looking for in a book like this.
posted by Scientist at 12:38 PM on November 29, 2013
Hmm, I guess you're right. I think I was a little confused because I've been so deep in the Mars trilogy. That series has a lot of what might arguably be considered "bald exposition". I think it gets a pass though, in part because it's a hard SF series about the near-future colonization of Mars which spans a couple hundred years, and one where many of the characters are scientists of one stripe or another, so naturally a lot of what the characters notice and react to is the minutia of technological, geological, ecological, cultural, and political detail.
The other part of the reason I would give it a pass is that all of this detail is genuinely novel to those characters, so it makes sense that they would be thinking and talking about it, and also Kim Stanley Robinson manages to convincingly portray that detail in a way that makes the reader (well, it works for me at least) understand why the POV character would find it interesting.
Plus, if you're the kind of reader who likes their SF on the hard side with lots of convincingly-plausible science and technology in it, and who also likes seeing plausible, detailed portrayals of the ways in which people and cultures shape and are shaped by science and technology (and their environments), that sort of minutia is probably one of the things that you're specifically looking for in a book like this.
posted by Scientist at 12:38 PM on November 29, 2013
For those who are curious, this used to be on Lore Sjöberg's site Shrove Tuesday Observed, which perished in the Lorepocalypse.
You're welcome to read my novel and see if I'm any better at this than any other sf writer.
It's a tricky problem for anyone who likes constructing worlds. Some authors are really good at throwing in the exposition entertainingly-- Snow Crash is a good example, I think. (There's a crazy expository section in the middle, but the protagonist, Protagonist, is getting an actual huge infodump at that moment, so it fits.) Or there's that old but effective standby, the viewpoint character who's an outsider. Or, as Bourgeon & Lacroix did for their amazing sf graphic novel series Le cycle de Cyann, you publish all the worldbuilding as a separate volume.
posted by zompist at 1:25 PM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
You're welcome to read my novel and see if I'm any better at this than any other sf writer.
It's a tricky problem for anyone who likes constructing worlds. Some authors are really good at throwing in the exposition entertainingly-- Snow Crash is a good example, I think. (There's a crazy expository section in the middle, but the protagonist, Protagonist, is getting an actual huge infodump at that moment, so it fits.) Or there's that old but effective standby, the viewpoint character who's an outsider. Or, as Bourgeon & Lacroix did for their amazing sf graphic novel series Le cycle de Cyann, you publish all the worldbuilding as a separate volume.
posted by zompist at 1:25 PM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
> The Silmarillion is a tough slog in places, and there's a lot of "telling" v. "showing,"
The S. does sneak in a bit of storytelling here and there but mostly it is and was meant to be a very condensed, summary-style history of a whopping great long chunk of time. Stylistically best compared to the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, which is also a bit of a slog even if you aren't trying to read it in Anglo-Saxon.
posted by jfuller at 1:53 PM on November 29, 2013
The S. does sneak in a bit of storytelling here and there but mostly it is and was meant to be a very condensed, summary-style history of a whopping great long chunk of time. Stylistically best compared to the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, which is also a bit of a slog even if you aren't trying to read it in Anglo-Saxon.
posted by jfuller at 1:53 PM on November 29, 2013
Yes, "as you know, Bob", and of course, Sturgeon's law. But I agree with lupus_yonderboy's comment: My theory is that a lot of people on this page have not read a decent contemporary writer.
For example, I picked three books at random from the mostly-SF bookshelf next to me. Here's how they open:
"Apparently I am what is known as an Unreliable Narrator, though of course if you believe everything you're told you deserve whatever you get. It is, believe me, more than a little amazing - and entirely unprecedented - that you are reading these words at all. Have you ever seen a seismograph?"
"The white bird climbs above the city of Istanbul: a stork, riding the rising air in a spiral of black tipped wings. A flare of the feathers; it wheels on the exhalations of twenty million people, one among ten thousand that have followed the terrain of thermals from Africa to Europe, gliding one to the next [...]"
"Everybody falls, and we all land somewhere.
So we rented a room on the third floor of a colonial style hotel in Padang where we wouldn't be noticed for a while.
Nine hundred euros a night bought us privacy and a balcony view of the Indian Ocean."
I don't know, that doesn't seem that shabby.
Also, this is perfect:
>> Dan Brown needs to write sci-fi.
> The renowned door dilated.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:13 PM on November 29, 2013
For example, I picked three books at random from the mostly-SF bookshelf next to me. Here's how they open:
"Apparently I am what is known as an Unreliable Narrator, though of course if you believe everything you're told you deserve whatever you get. It is, believe me, more than a little amazing - and entirely unprecedented - that you are reading these words at all. Have you ever seen a seismograph?"
"The white bird climbs above the city of Istanbul: a stork, riding the rising air in a spiral of black tipped wings. A flare of the feathers; it wheels on the exhalations of twenty million people, one among ten thousand that have followed the terrain of thermals from Africa to Europe, gliding one to the next [...]"
"Everybody falls, and we all land somewhere.
So we rented a room on the third floor of a colonial style hotel in Padang where we wouldn't be noticed for a while.
Nine hundred euros a night bought us privacy and a balcony view of the Indian Ocean."
I don't know, that doesn't seem that shabby.
Also, this is perfect:
>> Dan Brown needs to write sci-fi.
> The renowned door dilated.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:13 PM on November 29, 2013
The passage quoted in the FPP reads like product placement with the brands scrubbed.
posted by jamjam at 2:24 PM on November 29, 2013
posted by jamjam at 2:24 PM on November 29, 2013
disguising a chapter of information as a fake (and sometimes inaccurate) chapter of history about your character's world is a fun way to do that.
Right. The "I only read Tolkien for the appendices" approach. :)
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 3:27 PM on November 29, 2013
Right. The "I only read Tolkien for the appendices" approach. :)
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 3:27 PM on November 29, 2013
One thing Vance did in a lot of his stories was put a ton of exposition, explanation of invented words, etc. in footnotes. If you couldn't stand the ambiguity of having to figure out the term from context (or couldn't decide whether it was necessary to even do that), you could read the footnote. A lot of the time, they were worth it on their own, but often were not necessary to the story. So if you like infodumps or if you don't, you can read a Vance story with or without.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:27 PM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:27 PM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
the main character is the world's greatest telepathist, but he's also a crippled dwarf with hemophilia
This is what happens when people write up their GURPS campaign.
Mr Miéville to the white courtesy phone!
So basically, even if you love seven pages of "Cilandriel loved the way the fading light turned the leaves of the mimmirel trees a brilliant scarlet," you might still get annoyed by seven pages of "Mimmirel trees are a plant found in the forest of Yold which the elves use for clothing, furniture, and their valuable scarlet leaves, the principle export of Yold."
The latter is why I love Murray Leinster's work. He is so grimly fixated on the infodump that the story is nonexistent. It cheers me up enormously to read golden age science fiction, because for some reason the grimly earnest klunk-klunk of the laboriously imagined future which is the fifties with a thin gloss of SPACE STUFF warms the cockles of my heart.
posted by winna at 6:11 PM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is what happens when people write up their GURPS campaign.
Mr Miéville to the white courtesy phone!
So basically, even if you love seven pages of "Cilandriel loved the way the fading light turned the leaves of the mimmirel trees a brilliant scarlet," you might still get annoyed by seven pages of "Mimmirel trees are a plant found in the forest of Yold which the elves use for clothing, furniture, and their valuable scarlet leaves, the principle export of Yold."
The latter is why I love Murray Leinster's work. He is so grimly fixated on the infodump that the story is nonexistent. It cheers me up enormously to read golden age science fiction, because for some reason the grimly earnest klunk-klunk of the laboriously imagined future which is the fifties with a thin gloss of SPACE STUFF warms the cockles of my heart.
posted by winna at 6:11 PM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't know what you people are talking about. This was a totally fascinating story. The ordinary world is overflowing with science-fictional nova from which we must re-estrange in order to truly see!
posted by batfish at 6:21 PM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by batfish at 6:21 PM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
"a sci-fi Lester Bangs"
In a dark cave, far away from any electro-magnetic spectra or
cursed interwebitubes, a bleary Harlan Ellison awakens from
a febrile swamp-dream ...
posted by Chitownfats at 7:37 PM on November 29, 2013
In a dark cave, far away from any electro-magnetic spectra or
cursed interwebitubes, a bleary Harlan Ellison awakens from
a febrile swamp-dream ...
posted by Chitownfats at 7:37 PM on November 29, 2013
>> Dan Brown needs to write sci-fi.
> The renowned door dilated.
Renowned wall-perforator Door dilated profusely across the darkened wall-hole.
posted by No-sword at 11:32 PM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
> The renowned door dilated.
Renowned wall-perforator Door dilated profusely across the darkened wall-hole.
posted by No-sword at 11:32 PM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
I was reminded of this article a while back when I was reading Reamde.
posted by ckape at 11:32 PM on November 29, 2013
posted by ckape at 11:32 PM on November 29, 2013
Gene Roddenberry famously quipped, "When a cop pulls a gun on a suspect, he doesn't stand there and explain how the gun works." (He had been an LA cop himself.)
posted by dhartung at 11:47 PM on November 29, 2013
posted by dhartung at 11:47 PM on November 29, 2013
dhartung: This weapon has a capacity of six shots, and uses large diameter slugs propelled by the gas pressure resulting from the ignition of a relativity large quantity of fast burning chemicals via a spring driven hammer causing a firing pin to impact mechanically sensitive 'primer'. The weapon's limited capacity is due to the fact that the ammunition is stored in a rotating cylinder that also serves as a firing chamber when the rounds are discharged, the required size and weight of the cylinder to withstand the pressure generated on firing makes higher capacity designs impractical; however, it allows for the use higher pressure, and therefore higher energy ammunition, to be used relative to other weapon designs of the same type.
As you may be aware, it is normal practice to keep a mental note of how many shots are fired, I am currently unsure of if there are any unspent rounds of ammunition in this weapon, owing to distraction caused our prior contretemps. I feel compelled to point out that this particular model of weapon is the most powerful in its class that is manufactured on this world, and would inflict catastrophic and lethal damage on you if discharged into your head or torso.
Do you feel like risking your life on the chance that this weapon has discharged all of its ammunition? Well, do ya, punk?
posted by Grimgrin at 7:12 AM on November 30, 2013 [16 favorites]
As you may be aware, it is normal practice to keep a mental note of how many shots are fired, I am currently unsure of if there are any unspent rounds of ammunition in this weapon, owing to distraction caused our prior contretemps. I feel compelled to point out that this particular model of weapon is the most powerful in its class that is manufactured on this world, and would inflict catastrophic and lethal damage on you if discharged into your head or torso.
Do you feel like risking your life on the chance that this weapon has discharged all of its ammunition? Well, do ya, punk?
posted by Grimgrin at 7:12 AM on November 30, 2013 [16 favorites]
Renowned wall-perforator Door dilated profusely across the darkened wall-hole.
montypythonladiesclapping.gif
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:40 AM on November 30, 2013
montypythonladiesclapping.gif
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:40 AM on November 30, 2013
I am astounded that William Gibson hasn't been mentioned in this thread. His recent novels are pretty much exemplary examples of current-day stories written in a science fiction mindset / style / mode.
posted by aught at 11:01 AM on November 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by aught at 11:01 AM on November 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
Absolutely. Samuel R. Delany wrote a great piece I half-remember about sf being the only genre that engages its readers actively, because they have to fill in the gaps and imagine the world more fully from the offhanded references the author drops.
That's the essay "About 5,750 Words" in The Jewel-Hinged Jaw (1977). Required reading (really, the whole collection is) for anyone interested in the topic of how language works in science fiction versus non-genre fiction. Happily the book was reprinted in recent years by Wesleyan Univ. Press, as part of their overall project of keeping Delany in print.
posted by aught at 11:13 AM on November 30, 2013
That's the essay "About 5,750 Words" in The Jewel-Hinged Jaw (1977). Required reading (really, the whole collection is) for anyone interested in the topic of how language works in science fiction versus non-genre fiction. Happily the book was reprinted in recent years by Wesleyan Univ. Press, as part of their overall project of keeping Delany in print.
posted by aught at 11:13 AM on November 30, 2013
Despite having read SF for more than 30 years, I couldn't make much sense of Hannu Rajaniemi's first two novels.
SO MUCH THIS. I plowed through the first one in a constant state of confusion, lost interest in the second one less than 100 pages in. I should maybe try to re-read both, but I don't know if or how they'd be any easier to digest this time.
Absolutely. Samuel R. Delany wrote a great piece I half-remember about sf being the only genre that engages its readers actively, because they have to fill in the gaps and imagine the world more fully from the offhanded references the author drops.
It's pretty shitty, actually. I've got a good amount of sci-fi, and the wife has attempted to read some of it, now and then. She'll pick a random book off the shelf (making sure it's not a direct sequel or, say, book XII in a well-established universe where it's assumed that all readers have read the previous books where things were actually explained) and every single time just gives up very early on, not able to keep up with who the people are, where they are and what the hell is happening to them. I say "shitty" because it makes the genre less accessible than it should be, IMHO. I'm sure there's more accessible stuff in there, but being accustomed to the tropes and conventions of the genre AND completely forgetful of what the books I've read were actually like, I'm unable to recommend her any that I'd know to be easier to digest.
posted by jklaiho at 9:08 AM on December 1, 2013
SO MUCH THIS. I plowed through the first one in a constant state of confusion, lost interest in the second one less than 100 pages in. I should maybe try to re-read both, but I don't know if or how they'd be any easier to digest this time.
Absolutely. Samuel R. Delany wrote a great piece I half-remember about sf being the only genre that engages its readers actively, because they have to fill in the gaps and imagine the world more fully from the offhanded references the author drops.
It's pretty shitty, actually. I've got a good amount of sci-fi, and the wife has attempted to read some of it, now and then. She'll pick a random book off the shelf (making sure it's not a direct sequel or, say, book XII in a well-established universe where it's assumed that all readers have read the previous books where things were actually explained) and every single time just gives up very early on, not able to keep up with who the people are, where they are and what the hell is happening to them. I say "shitty" because it makes the genre less accessible than it should be, IMHO. I'm sure there's more accessible stuff in there, but being accustomed to the tropes and conventions of the genre AND completely forgetful of what the books I've read were actually like, I'm unable to recommend her any that I'd know to be easier to digest.
posted by jklaiho at 9:08 AM on December 1, 2013
This is great.
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:52 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:52 PM on December 1, 2013
In al fairness, and not taking into account the crass parody aspects of the FA, a certain kind of scifi and fantasy does a lot of exposition because it's about places and times that are by definition as foreign as possible from its intended audience
If a realist-genre novel is set in, for instance, 7th century Japan and aimed at a 21st century US audience, there will be as much or more exposition about technologies, social mores, politics, weapons, means of transportation, commerce, etc.
The reason the article sounds so ludicrous is because its exposition is about something we're intimately aware of. It's a strawman, of course it sounds ridiculous, and of course no one would write like this about something that their audience knows about. There's nothing wrong with explaining a context that your audience doesn't know about already.
posted by signal at 6:51 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
If a realist-genre novel is set in, for instance, 7th century Japan and aimed at a 21st century US audience, there will be as much or more exposition about technologies, social mores, politics, weapons, means of transportation, commerce, etc.
The reason the article sounds so ludicrous is because its exposition is about something we're intimately aware of. It's a strawman, of course it sounds ridiculous, and of course no one would write like this about something that their audience knows about. There's nothing wrong with explaining a context that your audience doesn't know about already.
posted by signal at 6:51 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
jklaiho: every single time [she] just gives up very early on, not able to keep up with who the people are, where they are and what the hell is happening to them.
Has she (and have you) tried stuff by Robert Charles Wilson? It's hard SF but very character driven, and I actually cared about the characters more than usual. For example, the "Chronoliths" is basically a story about a dad trying to do right by his daughter, in a world where some strange things are happening. "Spin" was very good, too, and I like "Julian Comstock" a lot, even if it is more like historical fiction and not to every SF enthusiast's taste. (He does have this habit of assigning his viewpoint characters to be non-technical experts, so that they can share the reader's confusion about some things. But that seems to work ok.)
>> Despite having read SF for more than 30 years, I couldn't make much sense of Hannu Rajaniemi's first two novels.
>SO MUCH THIS. I plowed through the first one in a constant state of confusion [etc]
So I loved both books - utterly loved them. But I work in a highly technical field, I've done multiple grad quantum mechanics courses, and I consciously use public-key cryptography all the time. And it was heavy going for me - so many cutting-edge ideas packed so densely that the story got a bit lost. But I'm really looking forward to book 3.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:46 PM on December 1, 2013
Has she (and have you) tried stuff by Robert Charles Wilson? It's hard SF but very character driven, and I actually cared about the characters more than usual. For example, the "Chronoliths" is basically a story about a dad trying to do right by his daughter, in a world where some strange things are happening. "Spin" was very good, too, and I like "Julian Comstock" a lot, even if it is more like historical fiction and not to every SF enthusiast's taste. (He does have this habit of assigning his viewpoint characters to be non-technical experts, so that they can share the reader's confusion about some things. But that seems to work ok.)
>> Despite having read SF for more than 30 years, I couldn't make much sense of Hannu Rajaniemi's first two novels.
>SO MUCH THIS. I plowed through the first one in a constant state of confusion [etc]
So I loved both books - utterly loved them. But I work in a highly technical field, I've done multiple grad quantum mechanics courses, and I consciously use public-key cryptography all the time. And it was heavy going for me - so many cutting-edge ideas packed so densely that the story got a bit lost. But I'm really looking forward to book 3.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:46 PM on December 1, 2013
I enjoyed Quantum Thief, I felt the story propelled me along faster than I could understand the concepts, but I like that when both are so well crafted. It gave me pause and made me re-read a few passages, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
The Fractal Prince had some clunky exposition of plot points from the Quantum Thief, but otherwise was more challenging on the tech side for me. Talking about this with friends who were also reading it was very enjoyable and added to the experience. The second book seemed less well written to me, less well honed writing, but the concepts were as well crafted as the first book.
M. John Harrison's Light is a good example of sci fi 'literature' IMHO.
posted by asok at 6:02 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Fractal Prince had some clunky exposition of plot points from the Quantum Thief, but otherwise was more challenging on the tech side for me. Talking about this with friends who were also reading it was very enjoyable and added to the experience. The second book seemed less well written to me, less well honed writing, but the concepts were as well crafted as the first book.
M. John Harrison's Light is a good example of sci fi 'literature' IMHO.
posted by asok at 6:02 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
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posted by alasdair at 2:50 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]