She was transfixed by the gleam of his uncooked chicken breast skin.
August 24, 2014 7:45 AM Subscribe
"I think to myself, `Now my hair is a glorious black, black as the raven's wing.' But all the time I KNOW it is just plain red and it breaks my heart. It will be my lifelong sorrow. I read of a girl once in a novel who had a lifelong sorrow but it wasn't red hair. Her hair was pure gold rippling back from her alabaster brow. What is an alabaster brow? I never could find out. Can you tell me?"posted by ChuraChura at 7:53 AM on August 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
"Well now, I'm afraid I can't," said Matthew, who was getting a little dizzy. He felt as he had once felt in his rash youth when another boy had enticed him on the merry-go-round at a picnic.
"Well, whatever it was it must have been something nice because she was divinely beautiful. Have you ever imagined what it must feel like to be divinely beautiful?"
These are hilariously great. But marzipan shoulders sound delicious.
posted by iamkimiam at 7:54 AM on August 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by iamkimiam at 7:54 AM on August 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
What, precisely, IS the shape of raw ground beef?
posted by The Almighty Mommy Goddess at 8:05 AM on August 24, 2014
posted by The Almighty Mommy Goddess at 8:05 AM on August 24, 2014
They forgot the semolina pudding six pack.
(I can't quite decide whether all this is about quick true-problems-evading flip-the-coin and laaaugh humor, or just a dig at bad literature)
posted by Namlit at 8:17 AM on August 24, 2014
(I can't quite decide whether all this is about quick true-problems-evading flip-the-coin and laaaugh humor, or just a dig at bad literature)
posted by Namlit at 8:17 AM on August 24, 2014
What, no white bread?
posted by EvelynU at 8:34 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by EvelynU at 8:34 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Are these actual lines from books or movies? 'Cause they read as half-ass college aged humor designed to laugh at another group while signifying one is part of the in group that would never ever do that thing we're all laughing at together, i.e. Buzzfeed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:49 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:49 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
Does not work. The transformation is terrible writing.
posted by Postroad at 8:50 AM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Postroad at 8:50 AM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think the point is that it is always already terrible writing.
posted by erlking at 8:52 AM on August 24, 2014 [23 favorites]
posted by erlking at 8:52 AM on August 24, 2014 [23 favorites]
Huh. Seems to me I can recall lots of similar descriptions of white skin in writing. Alabaster, porcelain, milky-white and so on. I even recall seeing something like "her ivory skin, pale as piano keys" somewhere. It does seem to me that people sometimes work really, really hard to suggest different attitudes to racial description where there isn't actually all that much.
posted by Decani at 8:55 AM on August 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by Decani at 8:55 AM on August 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
great, now i'm getting hot and hungry.
posted by bitteroldman at 9:00 AM on August 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by bitteroldman at 9:00 AM on August 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
Seems to me I can recall lots of similar descriptions of white skin in writing. Alabaster, porcelain, milky-white and so on.
You've managed to correctly identify descriptions of people with exceptionally, never-seen-the-sun, Goth-white skin; in other words, abnormally pale skin, so congratulations on that.
What the article lampoons is the apparent need of writers (often hack writers) to describe every type of skin outside of average Caucasian range in weird, fetishized, usually-food language.
I'm a bit surprised that I need to explain this, but it's a riff on the fact that to a lot of authors, "normal" skin is "white" (in a range between not-freaky-pale and not-very-dark) and doesn't merit description, but any skin darker than not-very-dark (or paler than rather-pale) warrants special descriptors like "alabaster" (for super pale) or "olive" or "coffee" (for more-than-slightly-dark).
So the intent is to use comedy to call into question why we peg "not-very-pale" to "not-very-dark" as not warranting any description, but any colour outside of that range as requiring explicit food- or piano-key related language to describe it.
posted by Shepherd at 9:07 AM on August 24, 2014 [59 favorites]
You've managed to correctly identify descriptions of people with exceptionally, never-seen-the-sun, Goth-white skin; in other words, abnormally pale skin, so congratulations on that.
What the article lampoons is the apparent need of writers (often hack writers) to describe every type of skin outside of average Caucasian range in weird, fetishized, usually-food language.
I'm a bit surprised that I need to explain this, but it's a riff on the fact that to a lot of authors, "normal" skin is "white" (in a range between not-freaky-pale and not-very-dark) and doesn't merit description, but any skin darker than not-very-dark (or paler than rather-pale) warrants special descriptors like "alabaster" (for super pale) or "olive" or "coffee" (for more-than-slightly-dark).
So the intent is to use comedy to call into question why we peg "not-very-pale" to "not-very-dark" as not warranting any description, but any colour outside of that range as requiring explicit food- or piano-key related language to describe it.
posted by Shepherd at 9:07 AM on August 24, 2014 [59 favorites]
^ ditto eye-shape; eyes are either "almond-shaped" or their shape does not merit comment because they are "normal shaped." These are all stealthy but fairly basic examples of unexamined racism.
posted by erlking at 9:10 AM on August 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
posted by erlking at 9:10 AM on August 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
Is it food metaphors for minorities that they are trying to point out? 'Cause there are tons of overwrought descriptions for white skin in literature too.
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:11 AM on August 24, 2014
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:11 AM on August 24, 2014
OK name 5 specific descriptions of normal white skin in literature that use food metaphors.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:12 AM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:12 AM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
"Like a tall clear glass filled with raw pasta." may be stolen from a Daniel Clowes story.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:13 AM on August 24, 2014
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:13 AM on August 24, 2014
OK name 5 specific descriptions of normal white skin in literature that use food metaphors.
And, if you can do that, I'm sure you'll find that they are all used for women. And a similar critique applies.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 9:21 AM on August 24, 2014 [12 favorites]
And, if you can do that, I'm sure you'll find that they are all used for women. And a similar critique applies.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 9:21 AM on August 24, 2014 [12 favorites]
Whenever I have to tick a box for skin colour, I bemoan the lack of "soiled prosthetic appliance". If it's been an especially active summer, I can sometimes make it to "elderly banana". Winter doesn't quite get me to my countryfolks' "six days undead" look, though.
posted by scruss at 9:23 AM on August 24, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by scruss at 9:23 AM on August 24, 2014 [12 favorites]
Doughy features. Peaches-and-cream complexion. Strawberry-veined nose. Brown as a nut (means caucasian but tanned). Apple cheeks. Rosy cheeks.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:23 AM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:23 AM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
"The largest organ of his body shone professional white in the morning sun."
posted by chavenet at 9:46 AM on August 24, 2014 [21 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 9:46 AM on August 24, 2014 [21 favorites]
I roll my eyes every time someone does another "Starbucks Skin Scale," so this is great.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:46 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:46 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
On a related note:
"Although call me when you do describe a white persons skin as “Creamy as Mashed Potatoes.”
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:48 AM on August 24, 2014
"Although call me when you do describe a white persons skin as “Creamy as Mashed Potatoes.”
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:48 AM on August 24, 2014
Doughy features and apple cheeks do not refer to color. Rosy cheeks does not refer to skin color per se, but rather a flushed quality or blushing, which is not necessarily relegated to white skin. Strawberry-veined nose is questionable as to whether it refers to color, texture, or both. And nut-brown is actually a color, so saying brown as a nut could be a permutation of that — also, doesn't necessarily apply to white skin, obviously.
My point is, these examples are very tenuous and I'm not convinced they apply to white skin color. They certainly don't exoticize skin color like the ridiculous descriptions we often see when writers describe non-white skin.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:51 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
My point is, these examples are very tenuous and I'm not convinced they apply to white skin color. They certainly don't exoticize skin color like the ridiculous descriptions we often see when writers describe non-white skin.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:51 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
Buzzfeed writers have a very limited understanding of "literature."
posted by Ideefixe at 9:53 AM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 9:53 AM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
What the article lampoons is the apparent need of writers (often hack writers) to describe every type of skin outside of average Caucasian range in weird, fetishized, usually-food language.
I'm not wholly convinced. Both "milky", "creamy", "vanilla", and "olive" skin are all within the average Caucasian range.
posted by Thing at 10:00 AM on August 24, 2014
I'm not wholly convinced. Both "milky", "creamy", "vanilla", and "olive" skin are all within the average Caucasian range.
posted by Thing at 10:00 AM on August 24, 2014
Here's a gross one that's a bit of a cheat: blue-veined.
We all have blue veins, of course, but they only stand out against pale skin. Hence the expression "blue-blooded", implying that someone doesn't have to work outdoors, so they're pale enough for you to see their veins. They must be very wealthy and/or important!
I think a lot of these metaphors are more common in inferior literature (I got "nut brown" from Enid Blyton) and the only reason they weren't used to exoticise characters is that everyone in those books was assumed to be white. I wonder what metaphors are actually used in countries where the default assumption is otherwise? I'm pretty sure I've read "skin as white as curd" in Indian books.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:13 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
We all have blue veins, of course, but they only stand out against pale skin. Hence the expression "blue-blooded", implying that someone doesn't have to work outdoors, so they're pale enough for you to see their veins. They must be very wealthy and/or important!
I think a lot of these metaphors are more common in inferior literature (I got "nut brown" from Enid Blyton) and the only reason they weren't used to exoticise characters is that everyone in those books was assumed to be white. I wonder what metaphors are actually used in countries where the default assumption is otherwise? I'm pretty sure I've read "skin as white as curd" in Indian books.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:13 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
As is "peaches and cream," which is two foods.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:15 AM on August 24, 2014
posted by louche mustachio at 10:15 AM on August 24, 2014
What's odd about this is that it misunderstands the problem. The food used to describe non-Caucasian skin colours are all luxury or somehow exotic foods, not mashed potato or raw meat. Marzipan works well as a comparison.
I could see an argument that is made about using "exotic" foods vs "traditionally American" foods as part of the exotification of non-white skin colours, but I don't think this Buzzfeed list is the place it is being done.
posted by jeather at 10:16 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
I could see an argument that is made about using "exotic" foods vs "traditionally American" foods as part of the exotification of non-white skin colours, but I don't think this Buzzfeed list is the place it is being done.
posted by jeather at 10:16 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
What the article lampoons is the apparent need of writers (often hack writers) to describe every type of skin outside of average Caucasian range in weird, fetishized, usually-food language.
On a more serious note, and speaking as a writer myself: if you don't specifically describe someone's ethnicity, or give them a very distinctly "ethnic" name, readers will generally assume they're white. Diversity is important, yet saying "He was a black guy," is clumsy and also puts a giant neon sign on the issue...so it's easy to find oneself doing things like this.
Well, okay, maybe not making people sound so literally delicious, but the point still stands.
I'm not trying to defend anyone's writing, btw. But I have sometimes found myself feeling just plain inexpert at conveying ethnicity with any sort of not-make-a-huge-issue elegance.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:17 AM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
On a more serious note, and speaking as a writer myself: if you don't specifically describe someone's ethnicity, or give them a very distinctly "ethnic" name, readers will generally assume they're white. Diversity is important, yet saying "He was a black guy," is clumsy and also puts a giant neon sign on the issue...so it's easy to find oneself doing things like this.
Well, okay, maybe not making people sound so literally delicious, but the point still stands.
I'm not trying to defend anyone's writing, btw. But I have sometimes found myself feeling just plain inexpert at conveying ethnicity with any sort of not-make-a-huge-issue elegance.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:17 AM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
But, yeah, why does it have to be food when it could be golden, copper, mahogony, ebony, tiger eye, topaz...
posted by louche mustachio at 10:18 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by louche mustachio at 10:18 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oh, those non-food descriptors do get used, but they don't make good fodder for a Buzzfeed article. Or maybe they're not good fooder.
Dammit, now I'm hungry.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:19 AM on August 24, 2014
Dammit, now I'm hungry.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:19 AM on August 24, 2014
My favorite was the last:
“You have such beautiful olive skin,” he crooned, “so you can be a person of color or racially ambiguous in the book but definitely a white woman in the movie.”
Honestly, I think the examples lost some of their impact by being deliberately awfully written. Writers use odd food comparisons for "ethnic" skin tones all the time without automatically using purple prose. But anything that gets more writers to stop using such total cliches for describing characters' skin colors is to the good, I suppose.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:20 AM on August 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
“You have such beautiful olive skin,” he crooned, “so you can be a person of color or racially ambiguous in the book but definitely a white woman in the movie.”
Honestly, I think the examples lost some of their impact by being deliberately awfully written. Writers use odd food comparisons for "ethnic" skin tones all the time without automatically using purple prose. But anything that gets more writers to stop using such total cliches for describing characters' skin colors is to the good, I suppose.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:20 AM on August 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
Strawberry Shortcake. Orange Blossom, Peach Blush, Ginger Snap, Tangerina Torta, Annie Oatmeal, Café Olé, Coco Calypso, Mint Tulip, Plum Puddin', Apple Dumplin', Rainbow Sherbet, Blueberry Muffin, Lem and Ada, Angel Cake, Crepe Suzette, Lemon Meringue, Almond Tea, Seaberry Delight, and Watermelon Kiss. Not to mention The Berry Princess and Blueberrykin, LemonBerrykin, LimeBerrykin, MintBerrykin, OrangeBerrykin, PeachBerrykin, PlumBerrykin, and all the OtherBerrykin.
No I didn't remember them all, my brain is entirely full of pokemons. I had to look them up. Lovely, lovely internet.
posted by jfuller at 10:28 AM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
No I didn't remember them all, my brain is entirely full of pokemons. I had to look them up. Lovely, lovely internet.
posted by jfuller at 10:28 AM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
And another part of the problem is that the food-skin description is generally used only for non-white characters. (As I recall, Gaiman reversed this in Anansi Boys.)
posted by jeather at 10:31 AM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by jeather at 10:31 AM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Rather an underhanded invocation of trypophobia there - tapioca, raw pasta, cauliflower.
heh.
posted by glasseyes at 10:35 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
heh.
posted by glasseyes at 10:35 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
And another part of the problem is that the food-skin description is generally used only for non-white characters.
"Face like lumpy mashed potatoes" and the like get used for white-but-fat-and-unsympathetic characters, especially if they are also low status (e.g. dungeon guard in a fantasy novel). It's definitely something authors only seem to use for "others," either ethnicity, class, or the over the top descriptions of a woman with dramatically pale skin.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:37 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Face like lumpy mashed potatoes" and the like get used for white-but-fat-and-unsympathetic characters, especially if they are also low status (e.g. dungeon guard in a fantasy novel). It's definitely something authors only seem to use for "others," either ethnicity, class, or the over the top descriptions of a woman with dramatically pale skin.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:37 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
What, no white bread?
Thad stumbled in from the sweltering Oaxacan heat -- exhausted, he plopped down in the first chair he could find at the Mexican bakery, a wet, lumpy bolillo amongst bolillos.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:39 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
Thad stumbled in from the sweltering Oaxacan heat -- exhausted, he plopped down in the first chair he could find at the Mexican bakery, a wet, lumpy bolillo amongst bolillos.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:39 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
Finally he reached the summit. He leaned on his walking stick and breathed heavily, his face the color of a purple-tinged turnip.
posted by GrammarMoses at 10:43 AM on August 24, 2014
posted by GrammarMoses at 10:43 AM on August 24, 2014
Potomac Avenue: OK name 5 specific descriptions of normal white skin in literature that use food metaphors.
There's lots of them: creamy, milky, peachy, apricot, vanilla, bisque, almond. Perhaps honey or butterscotch if your white person has a tan.
You just don't hear them anywhere near as much as coffee and chocolate because of that whole White Default thing a lot of authors unthinkingly do when describing characters.
posted by Georgina at 10:43 AM on August 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
There's lots of them: creamy, milky, peachy, apricot, vanilla, bisque, almond. Perhaps honey or butterscotch if your white person has a tan.
You just don't hear them anywhere near as much as coffee and chocolate because of that whole White Default thing a lot of authors unthinkingly do when describing characters.
posted by Georgina at 10:43 AM on August 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
I probably wouldn't blink at "marzipan shoulders" if used. Most of the other examples fail for using deliberately unappetizing foods (like raw meat) which is incongruous for sounding gross not for being weirdly fetishising.
posted by Karmakaze at 11:18 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Karmakaze at 11:18 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
There are definitely problems with bad writing, othering and so on, but a large part of the issue is the way we describe colors. Almost all shades are named for minerals, plants or foods that have that color.
For example, a quick search turned up this list of shades of brown (general, not specifically related to skin tone): almond, amber, bay, brandy, bronze, chocolate, cinnamon, coffee, copper, earth, ginger, hazel, mahogany, mousy, nutmeg, rotten, rust, sandy, sorrel, tan, tawny, walnut [source]
Whether or not a writer should be describing people’s skin tone is an issue, using cliches is an issue, and so on, but the mere fact that shades of brown are often described by reference to the color of foods is mostly just the way our language works.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 11:33 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
For example, a quick search turned up this list of shades of brown (general, not specifically related to skin tone): almond, amber, bay, brandy, bronze, chocolate, cinnamon, coffee, copper, earth, ginger, hazel, mahogany, mousy, nutmeg, rotten, rust, sandy, sorrel, tan, tawny, walnut [source]
Whether or not a writer should be describing people’s skin tone is an issue, using cliches is an issue, and so on, but the mere fact that shades of brown are often described by reference to the color of foods is mostly just the way our language works.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 11:33 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Writers should just use pantone numbers when describing skin, and all these problems would be eliminated.
posted by aubilenon at 11:40 AM on August 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 11:40 AM on August 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
Why just stick with Pantone? There are lots of systems to chose from, and it keeps the reader engaged.
Her skin was RAL9010, her eyes were 2728C, her hair #FFCC33...
posted by YAMWAK at 11:44 AM on August 24, 2014 [11 favorites]
Her skin was RAL9010, her eyes were 2728C, her hair #FFCC33...
posted by YAMWAK at 11:44 AM on August 24, 2014 [11 favorites]
Her cheeks flushed, #FFAACC...
posted by louche mustachio at 11:47 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by louche mustachio at 11:47 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
I try to describe all my character's skin colors. I doodle around in fantasy and I want it to be obvious that most people around aren't white by modern American standards (and a few groups have combined features common in multiple ethnic groups in our world, so they'd read a mixed-race to us); I would love to see more examples of people who do this stuff well.
Oh and the almond eyes thing is super silly because that's generally code for "Asian" but, like, look at a European person's eyes and look at an almond, it's way closer. Same with many Black and Native American folks. And there's a TON of variation within those sets (including Asians) in eye shape, size, setting and angle, though a lot of terms for those are derogatory. It's like, geez people, just use "epicanthic fold" if that's what you're talking about. It's enough to make me want to use a bunch of other nut-related terms for eyes just to draw attention to it. Especially creepy nonsensical ones: walnut-shaped eyes.
posted by NoraReed at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
Oh and the almond eyes thing is super silly because that's generally code for "Asian" but, like, look at a European person's eyes and look at an almond, it's way closer. Same with many Black and Native American folks. And there's a TON of variation within those sets (including Asians) in eye shape, size, setting and angle, though a lot of terms for those are derogatory. It's like, geez people, just use "epicanthic fold" if that's what you're talking about. It's enough to make me want to use a bunch of other nut-related terms for eyes just to draw attention to it. Especially creepy nonsensical ones: walnut-shaped eyes.
posted by NoraReed at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
How about "His face had the color, shape, and texture of an egg"?
Best part is that there's a lot of room for racial variation, while still comparing someone to food.
posted by aubilenon at 11:51 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Best part is that there's a lot of room for racial variation, while still comparing someone to food.
posted by aubilenon at 11:51 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
I should say the almond thing is closer to more eye shapes from people of European, African and Native American descent; it describes some Asian eyes but not as many (and is a cheap, uncreative metaphor besides). It obviously fails to describe everyone in any group, even if you drill down to area of origin, because variation is a wonderful thing.
RE: egg; you could get some interesting stuff for pockmarks and aging spots with speckles, but I bet you'd end up with regional variations of interpretation based on who gets white vs brown eggs.
posted by NoraReed at 11:54 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
RE: egg; you could get some interesting stuff for pockmarks and aging spots with speckles, but I bet you'd end up with regional variations of interpretation based on who gets white vs brown eggs.
posted by NoraReed at 11:54 AM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Cashew Eyes.
posted by The Whelk at 11:54 AM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 11:54 AM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
Her shoulders were like creamy mocha ganache, and her macademia round eyes glittered pistachio green and coconut white, their lashes long fluttery slivers of semi-sweet chocolate that for some reason didn't melt against her glowing warm maple and raspberry cheek. His hot, lightly toasted blueberry pop tart rubbed urgently against her sinewy licorice thigh...
posted by taz at 12:19 PM on August 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by taz at 12:19 PM on August 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
Just in case anybody wants an actual example, instead of some crap Buzzfeed made up:
"Her skin was pale white. Milky white. Cloud white.
So she was all white on white on white, like the most perfect kind of vanilla desert cake you've ever seen.
I wanted to be her chocolate topping."
--Sherman Alexie, The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian
(note that the context is explicitly about how he's immature and just lumping her into a category--'white girl'. Make of that what you will.)
posted by Dr.Enormous at 12:26 PM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
"Her skin was pale white. Milky white. Cloud white.
So she was all white on white on white, like the most perfect kind of vanilla desert cake you've ever seen.
I wanted to be her chocolate topping."
--Sherman Alexie, The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian
(note that the context is explicitly about how he's immature and just lumping her into a category--'white girl'. Make of that what you will.)
posted by Dr.Enormous at 12:26 PM on August 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
Pretty funny, good move against people who insist on describing "the other" this way.
At this very moment, I'm locked in an argument on my Facebook page with a rightwing, former colleague who is denouncing me as insensitive because I said white people need to stop saying that the Washington Redskins name isn't racist because it doesn't offend THEM. He followed by posting a video of several Choctaw and others saying "Redskins" didn't bother them though I don't know who did the video.Then he posted with a lengthy demand to give DC fans a break because, I don't know, the Washington Bullets changed their name. Enough is enough, he says.
His Confederate roots run very deep.
posted by etaoin at 12:37 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
At this very moment, I'm locked in an argument on my Facebook page with a rightwing, former colleague who is denouncing me as insensitive because I said white people need to stop saying that the Washington Redskins name isn't racist because it doesn't offend THEM. He followed by posting a video of several Choctaw and others saying "Redskins" didn't bother them though I don't know who did the video.Then he posted with a lengthy demand to give DC fans a break because, I don't know, the Washington Bullets changed their name. Enough is enough, he says.
His Confederate roots run very deep.
posted by etaoin at 12:37 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Shrimp. I learned just last night that Mexicans refer to the pale and pink skin of some of the visitors to their country as "looking like shrimp" (ver como un camaron).
posted by bonje at 12:57 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by bonje at 12:57 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
He had the complexion of an unusually buff sphynx cat, but with fewer wrinkles.
posted by Pyry at 1:13 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Pyry at 1:13 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
What is the color of untanned "white" skin? If I look hard at my skin and try to come up with a good color description or analogy I find it quite hard to do. "White" is clearly wrong. You want to say something like "buff" or "beige"--but when you hold up actual buffs and beiges against your skin, they tend to look nothing alike. That's one of the reasons that "skin-colored" bandaids tend not, in fact, to "disappear" on your skin. Perhaps it's just that skin is actually multi-colored? Reds, blues, whites, browns etc, all working together.
posted by yoink at 1:18 PM on August 24, 2014
posted by yoink at 1:18 PM on August 24, 2014
What is the color of untanned "white" skin? If I look hard at my skin and try to come up with a good color description or analogy I find it quite hard to do. "White" is clearly wrong. You want to say something like "buff" or "beige"--but when you hold up actual buffs and beiges against your skin, they tend to look nothing alike. That's one of the reasons that "skin-colored" bandaids tend not, in fact, to "disappear" on your skin. Perhaps it's just that skin is actually multi-colored? Reds, blues, whites, browns etc, all working together.
It also depends a lot on the color of the lighting.
posted by kafziel at 1:21 PM on August 24, 2014
It also depends a lot on the color of the lighting.
posted by kafziel at 1:21 PM on August 24, 2014
Hence the expression "blue-blooded", implying that someone doesn't have to work outdoors, so they're pale enough for you to see their veins.
Perhaps. Although "blue-blooded" actually only enters English idiom fairly late (mid C19th)--as more and more working class people begin to work in places deprived of sunlight in any case. The term is a translation of the spanish term "sangre azul" which seems to go back much further. But there the reference isn't so much class-based as racial. You show your "blue blood" to show you aren't "tainted" by Moorish (or Jewish) descent. So it's about racial purity rather more than about a capacity to live the leisured life.
posted by yoink at 1:26 PM on August 24, 2014
Perhaps. Although "blue-blooded" actually only enters English idiom fairly late (mid C19th)--as more and more working class people begin to work in places deprived of sunlight in any case. The term is a translation of the spanish term "sangre azul" which seems to go back much further. But there the reference isn't so much class-based as racial. You show your "blue blood" to show you aren't "tainted" by Moorish (or Jewish) descent. So it's about racial purity rather more than about a capacity to live the leisured life.
posted by yoink at 1:26 PM on August 24, 2014
As he strode confidently to the IT desk -- *his* desk -- his skin, in solidarity with the cubicles and the machines within them, shone a bright beige.
posted by smidgen at 1:27 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by smidgen at 1:27 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Her skin was the hue of an aged, oxidized Super Nintendo casing.
posted by Redfield at 1:34 PM on August 24, 2014
posted by Redfield at 1:34 PM on August 24, 2014
I've called Pete Campbell Eggface since my first viewing of Mad Men.
Cauliflower already exists as a description of the ears of boxers who have been hit there too often.
posted by brujita at 1:54 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Cauliflower already exists as a description of the ears of boxers who have been hit there too often.
posted by brujita at 1:54 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Mine is NW 25, according to MAC, by the way.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:54 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Omnomnom at 1:54 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
bonje, shrimp is a nice gradation to add to "red as a lobster." Also my lifelong fear of crustaceans is now lurching suspiciously toward some kind of hidden terror of white tourists in tropical destinations.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:55 PM on August 24, 2014
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:55 PM on August 24, 2014
Why just stick with Pantone? There are lots of systems to chose from, and it keeps the reader engaged.
Her skin was RAL9010, her eyes were 2728C, her hair #FFCC33...
posted by YAMWAK
Have I got the book for you!
http://www.ulillillia.us/stories/10elementalmasters/home.shtml
posted by kzin602 at 2:08 PM on August 24, 2014
Her skin was RAL9010, her eyes were 2728C, her hair #FFCC33...
posted by YAMWAK
Have I got the book for you!
http://www.ulillillia.us/stories/10elementalmasters/home.shtml
posted by kzin602 at 2:08 PM on August 24, 2014
>But there the reference isn't so much class-based as racial.
So says the OED, but without any citation. That being the case, I think this has to go under the heading "not proven". My quick google search doesn't turn up the phrase in Spanish literature until 1800, and as to its origins, an 1835 English commentary (source for the OED?) admits to just guessing (and prefers an alternate explanation).
That said, I would be fascinated if anyone can further enlighten us. Put out an APB for Languagehat.
posted by IndigoJones at 2:17 PM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
So says the OED, but without any citation. That being the case, I think this has to go under the heading "not proven". My quick google search doesn't turn up the phrase in Spanish literature until 1800, and as to its origins, an 1835 English commentary (source for the OED?) admits to just guessing (and prefers an alternate explanation).
That said, I would be fascinated if anyone can further enlighten us. Put out an APB for Languagehat.
posted by IndigoJones at 2:17 PM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
There are lots of systems to chose from, and it keeps the reader engaged.
Her skin was RAL9010, her eyes were 2728C, her hair #FFCC33...
Look, if we're going to communicate across color spaces & devices, we'd best do it in LAB so that our profiling software can interperet the text:
"The gentleman caller from the International Color Consortium gazed in wonder. That evening, she looked ravenous - her cheeks flushed a lustrous L 74, A 29, B 3. CIE 1976, of course."
posted by Devils Rancher at 2:23 PM on August 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
Her skin was RAL9010, her eyes were 2728C, her hair #FFCC33...
Look, if we're going to communicate across color spaces & devices, we'd best do it in LAB so that our profiling software can interperet the text:
"The gentleman caller from the International Color Consortium gazed in wonder. That evening, she looked ravenous - her cheeks flushed a lustrous L 74, A 29, B 3. CIE 1976, of course."
posted by Devils Rancher at 2:23 PM on August 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
Diversity is important, yet saying "He was a black guy," is clumsy and also puts a giant neon sign on the issue...so it's easy to find oneself doing things like this.
I would honestly be fine with more novels doing this if it means we don't have to deal with people saying Rue and Cho Chang are white.
posted by Conspire at 2:34 PM on August 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
I would honestly be fine with more novels doing this if it means we don't have to deal with people saying Rue and Cho Chang are white.
posted by Conspire at 2:34 PM on August 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
Are there any good guides out there for writers who want to be able to describe the appearance of their characters without making these common mistakes?
posted by Jacqueline at 2:37 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacqueline at 2:37 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
On a more serious note, and speaking as a writer myself: if you don't specifically describe someone's ethnicity, or give them a very distinctly "ethnic" name, readers will generally assume they're white.
Is this true? Where did you hear that? Honestly asking. I would think that readers are too idiosyncratic to make a blanket statement like that about (I mean, don't most people imagine characters looking like themselves or the people around them, unless they specifically learn differently?), but I could be wrong.
I remember this coming up a long time ago w/r/t a discussion about a TV show, because, like is pretty common for TV shows, the actors were playing characters who weren't necessary the same ethnicity or race that they actors themselves were. And some of the characters didn't have a stated or explicit ethnicity/race, and the discussion was whether the characters were therefore assumed to be white. I thought not, but YMMV. (The examples off the top of my head that we were discussing: Tyler in The Vampire Diaries, who's played by a Hispanic actor and whose character has white ancestors but whose ethnicity is otherwise not mentioned or a part of the show, Bonnie in The Vampire Dairies, who's played by an actress who is biracial but whose character is black on the show (and the character's race is a big part of the show, weirdly), and Lana on Smallville, who was played by an actress who's biracial but whose character is white on the show (in a really awkward way that the show seemed really insistent about).
What is the color of untanned "white" skin?
Cooked pastry crust. With various amounts of cooked (from near-raw to overdone/burnt) depending on different values of "untanned." (I should have come out of the oven about five minutes ago).
posted by rue72 at 2:44 PM on August 24, 2014
Is this true? Where did you hear that? Honestly asking. I would think that readers are too idiosyncratic to make a blanket statement like that about (I mean, don't most people imagine characters looking like themselves or the people around them, unless they specifically learn differently?), but I could be wrong.
I remember this coming up a long time ago w/r/t a discussion about a TV show, because, like is pretty common for TV shows, the actors were playing characters who weren't necessary the same ethnicity or race that they actors themselves were. And some of the characters didn't have a stated or explicit ethnicity/race, and the discussion was whether the characters were therefore assumed to be white. I thought not, but YMMV. (The examples off the top of my head that we were discussing: Tyler in The Vampire Diaries, who's played by a Hispanic actor and whose character has white ancestors but whose ethnicity is otherwise not mentioned or a part of the show, Bonnie in The Vampire Dairies, who's played by an actress who is biracial but whose character is black on the show (and the character's race is a big part of the show, weirdly), and Lana on Smallville, who was played by an actress who's biracial but whose character is white on the show (in a really awkward way that the show seemed really insistent about).
What is the color of untanned "white" skin?
Cooked pastry crust. With various amounts of cooked (from near-raw to overdone/burnt) depending on different values of "untanned." (I should have come out of the oven about five minutes ago).
posted by rue72 at 2:44 PM on August 24, 2014
Shrimp. I learned just last night that Mexicans refer to the pale and pink skin of some of the visitors to their country as "looking like shrimp" (ver como un camaron).
You know when I heard the French used to call the English " Roast Beef" I thought it wasn't a reference to food but to thier habit of going all pink in the sun.
posted by The Whelk at 2:46 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
You know when I heard the French used to call the English " Roast Beef" I thought it wasn't a reference to food but to thier habit of going all pink in the sun.
posted by The Whelk at 2:46 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Although I have seen "chocolate" and "coffee (usually with a specific amount of cream added, if the author is feeling clever)" thrown around with dizzying abandon, I think "Mahogany" gets used a lot more, which would give us "his skin was the color of well-sanded pine, although with a less intrusive grain."
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:39 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:39 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I mean, don't most people imagine characters looking like themselves or the people around them, unless they specifically learn differently?
As a brown person (or as this brown person), I learned white was default way before I started reading on my own. So: no. That's why this actually matters. If there was more diversity: probably then yes that would be the case. But I still remember how satisfying it was to see people like me depicted like it wasn't a thing. Much after.
posted by dame at 3:41 PM on August 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
As a brown person (or as this brown person), I learned white was default way before I started reading on my own. So: no. That's why this actually matters. If there was more diversity: probably then yes that would be the case. But I still remember how satisfying it was to see people like me depicted like it wasn't a thing. Much after.
posted by dame at 3:41 PM on August 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
Japanese people consider their skin color to be "wheat," I am told.
posted by EvelynU at 4:01 PM on August 24, 2014
posted by EvelynU at 4:01 PM on August 24, 2014
This is very interesting.
So any takers for a description of a POC in a fantasy or scifi setting? (granted, without resorting to food metaphors)
posted by xcasex at 4:31 PM on August 24, 2014
So any takers for a description of a POC in a fantasy or scifi setting? (granted, without resorting to food metaphors)
posted by xcasex at 4:31 PM on August 24, 2014
Her skin was the color of café au lait, which the clumsy waiter began mopping up.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:39 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:39 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Is this true? Where did you hear that? Honestly asking.
This is absolutely a thing. I've had this discussion with POC friends (and white friends), I've seen it discussed online, and...yeah. It's a thing.
I try to make a priority of diversity & inclusion in my work, and lemme tell ya, some readers seem horribly offended at the presence of badass women or heroic gay people or ethnic diversity cluttering up their military sci-fi. It turns up sometimes in reviews. Doesn't matter if the primary protagonist is a straight white male; if some woman turns up to save his ass at some point (through badassery and not through, say, feminine wiles), the whole book is ruined for 'em.
When I first started working with a serious sci-fi/fantasy pro for my cover art, he asked me with an almost palpable tone of hope if any of the cover characters in the first couple orders were not white. I had to say no, and he just shrugged and said it is what it is. That moment, though, has told me a lot about the state of things in fiction, and since then I've tried to come up with cover concepts that would include those POC characters. It has only worked once so far (out of five covers now), but...well. Yes, readers will assume characters are white unless specifically told or shown differently.
A little more on-point, though: I will fully admit that I have referred to "mocha" skin a couple of times. I feel like that's kinda harmless. But the point of this satire is well-taken, and it's something I'll keep in mind in the future.
...although you can't tell me that food analogies aren't appropriate when writing about someone like John Boehner.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:53 PM on August 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
This is absolutely a thing. I've had this discussion with POC friends (and white friends), I've seen it discussed online, and...yeah. It's a thing.
I try to make a priority of diversity & inclusion in my work, and lemme tell ya, some readers seem horribly offended at the presence of badass women or heroic gay people or ethnic diversity cluttering up their military sci-fi. It turns up sometimes in reviews. Doesn't matter if the primary protagonist is a straight white male; if some woman turns up to save his ass at some point (through badassery and not through, say, feminine wiles), the whole book is ruined for 'em.
When I first started working with a serious sci-fi/fantasy pro for my cover art, he asked me with an almost palpable tone of hope if any of the cover characters in the first couple orders were not white. I had to say no, and he just shrugged and said it is what it is. That moment, though, has told me a lot about the state of things in fiction, and since then I've tried to come up with cover concepts that would include those POC characters. It has only worked once so far (out of five covers now), but...well. Yes, readers will assume characters are white unless specifically told or shown differently.
A little more on-point, though: I will fully admit that I have referred to "mocha" skin a couple of times. I feel like that's kinda harmless. But the point of this satire is well-taken, and it's something I'll keep in mind in the future.
...although you can't tell me that food analogies aren't appropriate when writing about someone like John Boehner.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:53 PM on August 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
Japanese people consider their skin color to be "wheat," I am told.
"Wheat" is the color of tanned skin. Interestingly, traditionally Japanese skin color can be described as anything from "white" (shiroi) to "black" (kuroi); like other places, this tended to encode occupation and therefore social status as well (Japanese women were powdering their faces white long before any of them cared what Europeans looked like). Starting about 200 years ago the whole Anglo-US idea of "white, black, yellow, and red" was imported along with the rest of the "science" current then, so now some Japanese people also speak of having yellow skin (more or less ironically).
And of course they have the word "hadairo", "skin-colored," although I understand it's not used to label crayons any more for the same reasons as everywhere else.
posted by No-sword at 4:54 PM on August 24, 2014
"Wheat" is the color of tanned skin. Interestingly, traditionally Japanese skin color can be described as anything from "white" (shiroi) to "black" (kuroi); like other places, this tended to encode occupation and therefore social status as well (Japanese women were powdering their faces white long before any of them cared what Europeans looked like). Starting about 200 years ago the whole Anglo-US idea of "white, black, yellow, and red" was imported along with the rest of the "science" current then, so now some Japanese people also speak of having yellow skin (more or less ironically).
And of course they have the word "hadairo", "skin-colored," although I understand it's not used to label crayons any more for the same reasons as everywhere else.
posted by No-sword at 4:54 PM on August 24, 2014
or scifi setting? (granted, without resorting to food metaphors)
Well mine isn't very sci-fi but while I try to stay away from overt descriptions of characters unless it's important, one character's whole deal is that they're part a notable political African-American family so she's held to different standards and (Cause she's into fashion) likes pink patterns and bright oranges cause they compliment her coloration and I assume the reader knows no one paler than olive looks good in orange.
posted by The Whelk at 5:00 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Well mine isn't very sci-fi but while I try to stay away from overt descriptions of characters unless it's important, one character's whole deal is that they're part a notable political African-American family so she's held to different standards and (Cause she's into fashion) likes pink patterns and bright oranges cause they compliment her coloration and I assume the reader knows no one paler than olive looks good in orange.
posted by The Whelk at 5:00 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
or give them a very distinctly "ethnic" name
And sometimes not even then. I recall a few Harry Potter fans who were surprised to find out that the Patil twins were Indian or that Cho Chang was Chinese.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 5:05 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
And sometimes not even then. I recall a few Harry Potter fans who were surprised to find out that the Patil twins were Indian or that Cho Chang was Chinese.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 5:05 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
...although you can't tell me that food analogies aren't appropriate when writing about someone like John Boehner.
Some of us are trying to eat.
posted by louche mustachio at 5:22 PM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Some of us are trying to eat.
posted by louche mustachio at 5:22 PM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Some of us are trying to eat.
What does he taste like?
posted by yoink at 5:36 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
What does he taste like?
posted by yoink at 5:36 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Sheperd--"I'm a bit surprised that I need to explain this"--I am a bit surprised you were surprised. Having read for a number of years it seems to me that describing skin color in reference to food is a relatively universal phenomenon. I still don't get it and see it as a reach but apparently many disagree.
posted by rmhsinc at 5:37 PM on August 24, 2014
posted by rmhsinc at 5:37 PM on August 24, 2014
or give them a very distinctly "ethnic" name
Terry Pratchett has a bit of fun with this in Interesting Times; he does his usual thing of setting up a fantasy analogue to somewhere on earth, and uses the usual bunch of 'ethnic' names: Hong, Sun, Tang, Fang, and...McSweeney ('very old established family').
posted by Dr.Enormous at 6:11 PM on August 24, 2014
Terry Pratchett has a bit of fun with this in Interesting Times; he does his usual thing of setting up a fantasy analogue to somewhere on earth, and uses the usual bunch of 'ethnic' names: Hong, Sun, Tang, Fang, and...McSweeney ('very old established family').
posted by Dr.Enormous at 6:11 PM on August 24, 2014
On a more serious note, and speaking as a writer myself: if you don't specifically describe someone's ethnicity, or give them a very distinctly "ethnic" name, readers will generally assume they're white.
Is this true? Where did you hear that? Honestly asking. I would think that readers are too idiosyncratic to make a blanket statement like that about (I mean, don't most people imagine characters looking like themselves or the people around them, unless they specifically learn differently?), but I could be wrong.
I mean, don't most people imagine characters looking like themselves or the people around them, unless they specifically learn differently?
As a brown person (or as this brown person), I learned white was default way before I started reading on my own. So: no. That's why this actually matters.
Me too. I'm Indian American and there's no way I'd consider a character named, say, Emilie Sutton to be Indian American, or to expect Indian Americanness as the default in anything just because I am one. I get that you're honestly asking, but that's really privilege talking, to imagine everyone pictures characters or any sort of created world to look like them. As an Indian American I don't even think typical depictions of Indians remind me of me at all.
Personally I'd rather people just be described as "black" or "East Asian" or whatever than the whole caramel/coffee/mocha thing. It's annoying, exotifying and clumsy and we don't need it. I think this parody works better with the white skin comparisons being sort of ridiculous, because it calls attention to how clumsy this is.
posted by sweetkid at 6:42 PM on August 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
Is this true? Where did you hear that? Honestly asking. I would think that readers are too idiosyncratic to make a blanket statement like that about (I mean, don't most people imagine characters looking like themselves or the people around them, unless they specifically learn differently?), but I could be wrong.
I mean, don't most people imagine characters looking like themselves or the people around them, unless they specifically learn differently?
As a brown person (or as this brown person), I learned white was default way before I started reading on my own. So: no. That's why this actually matters.
Me too. I'm Indian American and there's no way I'd consider a character named, say, Emilie Sutton to be Indian American, or to expect Indian Americanness as the default in anything just because I am one. I get that you're honestly asking, but that's really privilege talking, to imagine everyone pictures characters or any sort of created world to look like them. As an Indian American I don't even think typical depictions of Indians remind me of me at all.
Personally I'd rather people just be described as "black" or "East Asian" or whatever than the whole caramel/coffee/mocha thing. It's annoying, exotifying and clumsy and we don't need it. I think this parody works better with the white skin comparisons being sort of ridiculous, because it calls attention to how clumsy this is.
posted by sweetkid at 6:42 PM on August 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
Japanese people consider their skin color to be "wheat," I am told.
In my experience with Indian/Indian American culture, "wheatish" is a complimentary comment on someone's paleness.
posted by sweetkid at 6:44 PM on August 24, 2014
It doesn't help that characters of colour are routinely whitewashed in book covers. This appears to be a particular problem in young adult fiction.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:18 PM on August 24, 2014
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:18 PM on August 24, 2014
There’s a term in literary theory for the ways in which a typical reader reads character - and by typical here, I mean typical in the Western-European First World. The term is ‘the unmarked state’ and it works like this: Say I read you a sentence about a character who is washed away in a river ravaged by storm, swims to the other side and climbs out, surviving by the skin of their teeth and strength of their will and body. Not so exciting or interesting a sentence, perhaps. What is interesting is that, unless told otherwise, the majority of readers will assume that the character fits the following description: white, male, 30-40 years old, middle class, employed, able-bodied.(From Non-existence: On being a character by N A Burke.)
I found this idea fascinating when I first read it a few years ago, and most people I've discussed it with have said it makes sense to them, but I've not been able to find much more about the concept of the unmarked state. Perhaps those of you who know literary theory can shed some light.
As a white person, I've noticed myself doing this and try to be aware of it. Unfortunately, so many authors are still careless about race and racial descriptions that it's not always a bad assumption to make. If a character's eye colour or hair colour is described, they're probably white. If a character's eye shape or skin colour is described, they're probably non-white. Something I still see a lot in YA is a bunch of presumably-white characters will be described by their most prominent physical characteristics (she has flowing red hair, he has a scar over one eye) and then one character will be described as "Japanese". That's it. Because all Japanese people look alike, apparently.
Even sillier is when the (white, of course) protagonist meets somebody for the first time and can instantly divine their racial background.
posted by Georgina at 8:25 PM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
I've been reading too much YA fiction: my mental image of N A BUrke's protagonist was that it was a young woman, probably red-haired, and possessing either innate magical gifts or an knack for repairing complicated machinery. I mean, I can literally imagine the cover.
The other cheap way of characterising people, incidentally, is dialect. The same principle applies: unusual speech is used to mark people as exotic, either by race or class. So Thuggo the Barbarian speak lik' dis; Mei Ling the Apprentice Courtesan is so sorry to humbly address you in such a manner; and it will be something of a running joke that someone called Ndebele speaks with an Oxford accent.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:48 PM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
The other cheap way of characterising people, incidentally, is dialect. The same principle applies: unusual speech is used to mark people as exotic, either by race or class. So Thuggo the Barbarian speak lik' dis; Mei Ling the Apprentice Courtesan is so sorry to humbly address you in such a manner; and it will be something of a running joke that someone called Ndebele speaks with an Oxford accent.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:48 PM on August 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Personally I'd rather people just be described as "black" or "East Asian" or whatever than the whole caramel/coffee/mocha thing.
It's tricky, though. In the US, there are all kinds of complex social realities that come into play depending on exactly how "black" a "black" person is. Similar things are true in lots of other countries (Brazil, India etc.). There are all kinds of specific prejudices, opportunities, reactions etc. that are or are not believable in specific social contexts depending upon specific details of physical appearance related to racial codings (the differences between the kinds of way Halle Berry is "black" and the kinds of ways, say, Nina Simone was "black"). It's a bit disabling if novelists are somehow not supposed to talk about these things or not supposed to give their readers a useful way of conjuring up a specific character's position within the social world they're operating in.
posted by yoink at 9:40 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's tricky, though. In the US, there are all kinds of complex social realities that come into play depending on exactly how "black" a "black" person is. Similar things are true in lots of other countries (Brazil, India etc.). There are all kinds of specific prejudices, opportunities, reactions etc. that are or are not believable in specific social contexts depending upon specific details of physical appearance related to racial codings (the differences between the kinds of way Halle Berry is "black" and the kinds of ways, say, Nina Simone was "black"). It's a bit disabling if novelists are somehow not supposed to talk about these things or not supposed to give their readers a useful way of conjuring up a specific character's position within the social world they're operating in.
posted by yoink at 9:40 PM on August 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm writing a novel, and it has a POC as one of the main characters. He's tan, with epicanthic folds, black hair, and black eyes. That's basically it. I do talk a little bit about where his ancestors are from, which is northern Russia.
Now I may have massively screwed this up, I don't know. But one thing I found myself doing is describing my other main character in the same way. Because otherwise, hardly anyone is going to imagine a Latino with the last name of 'Alvarez' to have blond hair and blue eyes, as his parents are Uruguayan - which the majority of their population has Italian and/or Spanish roots. As I said, I might have messed this up, this is my first foray into novel writing. I tried to read extensively on the subjects of 'writing the Other', but again - I can definitely make mistakes here.)
posted by spinifex23 at 11:41 PM on August 24, 2014
Now I may have massively screwed this up, I don't know. But one thing I found myself doing is describing my other main character in the same way. Because otherwise, hardly anyone is going to imagine a Latino with the last name of 'Alvarez' to have blond hair and blue eyes, as his parents are Uruguayan - which the majority of their population has Italian and/or Spanish roots. As I said, I might have messed this up, this is my first foray into novel writing. I tried to read extensively on the subjects of 'writing the Other', but again - I can definitely make mistakes here.)
posted by spinifex23 at 11:41 PM on August 24, 2014
Shrimp. I learned just last night that Mexicans refer to the pale and pink skin of some of the visitors to their country as "looking like shrimp" (ver como un camaron).
The canonical color of "sunburnt British tourist in Torremolinos" is crab (ponerse rojo como un cangrejo = to get your skin red as a crab).
posted by sukeban at 11:59 PM on August 24, 2014
The canonical color of "sunburnt British tourist in Torremolinos" is crab (ponerse rojo como un cangrejo = to get your skin red as a crab).
posted by sukeban at 11:59 PM on August 24, 2014
"Cashew Eyes."
You jest, but I think it would be really cool to have cuttlefish make regular appearances as characters in books.
posted by Evilspork at 12:26 AM on August 25, 2014
You jest, but I think it would be really cool to have cuttlefish make regular appearances as characters in books.
posted by Evilspork at 12:26 AM on August 25, 2014
What is the color of untanned "white" skin?
EM Forster called it 'pinko-grey'.
posted by tavegyl at 1:00 AM on August 25, 2014
EM Forster called it 'pinko-grey'.
posted by tavegyl at 1:00 AM on August 25, 2014
This thread reminds me tangentially of why I really liked how Ann Leckie's Ancillary Justice switched around or ignored gendered pronouns. I was free to make up my own mind about the characters, and when she sometimes makes clear whether she meant the characters to be male or female, I can just ignore it.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 3:47 AM on August 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 3:47 AM on August 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
bonje: "Shrimp. I learned just last night that Mexicans refer to the pale and pink skin of some of the visitors to their country as "looking like shrimp" (ver como un camaron)."
The Portuguese refer to the English (and other pale folks) as "bifes", but that's because they tend to become red in the sun.
posted by chavenet at 4:47 AM on August 25, 2014
The Portuguese refer to the English (and other pale folks) as "bifes", but that's because they tend to become red in the sun.
posted by chavenet at 4:47 AM on August 25, 2014
For skin color names, you can look at foundation colors (which skew white, much to the frustration of darker women who would like makeup to match them.) From matchmymakeup.com, here's the scale for one of the L'Oreal Lines. The numbers indicate going more or less from light to dark; W is for Warm, C is for Cool, and N is for Neutral:
W1 Porcelain, W2 Light Ivory, C1 Alabaster, C2 Natural Ivory, N1 Soft Ivory, N2 Classic Ivory, W3 Nude Beige, W5 Sand Beige, W4 Natural Beige, N3 Natural Buff, C3 Creamy Natural, C4 Shell Beige, C5 Classic Beige, W4.5 Fresh Beige, N5 True Beige, N4 Buff Beige, W6 Sun Beige, W5.5 Suntan, N6 Honey Beige, N6.5 Golden Beige, N5.5 Perfect Beige, W7 Caramel Beige, N7 Classic Tan, W8 Creme Cafe, C6 Soft Sable, C7 Nut brown, N8 Cappuccino, C8 Cacao, N9 Mahogany, W9.5 Deep Warm, W10 Deep Golden, C9 Deep Cool, C10 Espresso
This page has pictures of women meant to wear each of these.
posted by Karmakaze at 5:39 AM on August 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
W1 Porcelain, W2 Light Ivory, C1 Alabaster, C2 Natural Ivory, N1 Soft Ivory, N2 Classic Ivory, W3 Nude Beige, W5 Sand Beige, W4 Natural Beige, N3 Natural Buff, C3 Creamy Natural, C4 Shell Beige, C5 Classic Beige, W4.5 Fresh Beige, N5 True Beige, N4 Buff Beige, W6 Sun Beige, W5.5 Suntan, N6 Honey Beige, N6.5 Golden Beige, N5.5 Perfect Beige, W7 Caramel Beige, N7 Classic Tan, W8 Creme Cafe, C6 Soft Sable, C7 Nut brown, N8 Cappuccino, C8 Cacao, N9 Mahogany, W9.5 Deep Warm, W10 Deep Golden, C9 Deep Cool, C10 Espresso
This page has pictures of women meant to wear each of these.
posted by Karmakaze at 5:39 AM on August 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
Huh. Seems to me I can recall lots of similar descriptions of white skin in writing. Alabaster, porcelain, milky-white and so on. I even recall seeing something like "her ivory skin, pale as piano keys" somewhere. It does seem to me that people sometimes work really, really hard to suggest different attitudes to racial description where there isn't actually all that much.
This comment got me wondering if there is any kind of empirical evidence on the frequency of these phrases. So I searched Google Books' corpus of written American English. The phrase "dark skin" appears three times more frequently than the phrase "light skin."
"Olive skin" is about ten times more common than "milky skin."
"Chocolate skin" is about twenty times more common than "vanilla skin."
However, except for a two-decade span in the 1830s and 1840s, the phrase "ivory skin" is more common than "ebony skin."
"Angry black man" barely appears before 1960. It suddenly eclipsed "angry white man" in the late 1960s and is now about twice as common.
"Sexy white man" does not even appear on the chart, "sexy black man" does. But neither phrase is very popular. Today "sexy black man" is about twice as common as "angry hedgehog." For some reason, "angry hedgehog was incredibly popular between 1820 and 1900. In 1832 (the year of peak angry hedgehog) it was 41 times more common than it is today.
posted by compartment at 7:45 AM on August 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
This comment got me wondering if there is any kind of empirical evidence on the frequency of these phrases. So I searched Google Books' corpus of written American English. The phrase "dark skin" appears three times more frequently than the phrase "light skin."
"Olive skin" is about ten times more common than "milky skin."
"Chocolate skin" is about twenty times more common than "vanilla skin."
However, except for a two-decade span in the 1830s and 1840s, the phrase "ivory skin" is more common than "ebony skin."
"Angry black man" barely appears before 1960. It suddenly eclipsed "angry white man" in the late 1960s and is now about twice as common.
"Sexy white man" does not even appear on the chart, "sexy black man" does. But neither phrase is very popular. Today "sexy black man" is about twice as common as "angry hedgehog." For some reason, "angry hedgehog was incredibly popular between 1820 and 1900. In 1832 (the year of peak angry hedgehog) it was 41 times more common than it is today.
posted by compartment at 7:45 AM on August 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
This thread reminds me of the following, which I read a couple of years ago and hold to still:
Annoyed when a fucking author insists on describing one character as a “black woman” and another as a “blonde woman”. If you’ll use racial descriptors, why not use them universally?posted by daisyk at 9:33 AM on August 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Why does her hair colour give her character such presumptuous power? That’s fucking stupid
Whatever
Every time I come across a blonde character in some literary passage, I’m instantly presuming that they’re Melanesian unless they’ve been given an explicitly different racial descriptor
which they never are
EM Forster called it 'pinko-grey'.
Yes, I almost mentioned that in my comment. I've always rather liked it, except that I--and most of the caucasian people I know--are only ever "pink" when they're sunburned or deeply embarrassed and only ever "grey" when they're very ill. But it does speak to how difficult it is to say exactly what color "white" people are.
posted by yoink at 9:47 AM on August 25, 2014
Yes, I almost mentioned that in my comment. I've always rather liked it, except that I--and most of the caucasian people I know--are only ever "pink" when they're sunburned or deeply embarrassed and only ever "grey" when they're very ill. But it does speak to how difficult it is to say exactly what color "white" people are.
posted by yoink at 9:47 AM on August 25, 2014
White people are Band-Aid-colored. Usually.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 11:41 AM on August 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 11:41 AM on August 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
When we talk about the color of skin, what we mean is "what wavelengths of light are reflected (i.e., not absorbed) under 'normal' lighting conditions". We could probably come up with a description by using some formula that adds the contributions given by things like the epidermis (greyish yellow), melanin (black, brown, and pink), oxygenated blood cells (red), dexogygenated blood cells (dark red/purple) and fat and plasma (yellowish). Realistically, most of this will be accounted for by a figure for the contribution of the epidermis (which is thicker in different parts of the body), two or three measurements of the different forms of melanin, and a figure representing the level of oxygenation. In other words, four or five variables would be sufficient to describe any skin color of any person, measured on any part of their body - and changing the variables would let you describe how their color changes when they are cold / sick / flushed with heat, or whether the color is measured on their face, their arms, or the soles of their feet.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:22 PM on August 25, 2014
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:22 PM on August 25, 2014
I recall a few Harry Potter fans who were surprised to find out that the Patil twins were Indian or that Cho Chang was Chinese.
I didn't realise the Patil twins were Indian (possibly Cho as well, although I don't specifically recall) until their first movie appearance. Which feels embarrassing to say now, but I can understand how younger readers without much context for the name could miss it. I was in my early teens when I read those books, had met only one family of Indian origin in my life, and hadn't really read any literature or watched any films with Indian characters. And HP is full of unusual character names, so they don't really register if you don't have that context.
None of which is any excuse for the fact that yes, in my mind's eye I'm pretty sure all of the characters were white when I read the books. If I'm honest, I think that yes, I picture any character whose ethnicity is not specified or suggested by context as white. I'd like to change that, and I anticipate it being difficult.
posted by lwb at 11:26 PM on August 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I didn't realise the Patil twins were Indian (possibly Cho as well, although I don't specifically recall) until their first movie appearance. Which feels embarrassing to say now, but I can understand how younger readers without much context for the name could miss it. I was in my early teens when I read those books, had met only one family of Indian origin in my life, and hadn't really read any literature or watched any films with Indian characters. And HP is full of unusual character names, so they don't really register if you don't have that context.
None of which is any excuse for the fact that yes, in my mind's eye I'm pretty sure all of the characters were white when I read the books. If I'm honest, I think that yes, I picture any character whose ethnicity is not specified or suggested by context as white. I'd like to change that, and I anticipate it being difficult.
posted by lwb at 11:26 PM on August 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
lwb, good luck in that (sincerely, not sarcastically!). I've been trying for a while, and it is kind of difficult but I think I'm getting somewhere.
posted by daisyk at 12:38 AM on August 26, 2014
posted by daisyk at 12:38 AM on August 26, 2014
I would like to think that, if I stopped and thought, I'd infer that the Patils were south Asian by their name. But honestly, absent description, I don't really form a clear mental image of someone. I certainly don't remember if I thought "Huh, Patil, probably Indian" when I first encountered them.
Certainly wouldn't have been surprised, that's bizarre.
posted by kafziel at 12:41 AM on August 26, 2014
Certainly wouldn't have been surprised, that's bizarre.
posted by kafziel at 12:41 AM on August 26, 2014
White people are Band-Aid-colored. Usually.
Except, when was the last time you (if you're "white") or any "white" person you know put on a band-aid and thought "wow, that really disappears against my skin"? If you're wearing a band-aid, it's immediately and often pretty starkly visible.
I think part of the problem with characterizing the color of "white" skin is simply that it's so translucent. You're getting layers of different colors and also some weird reflective and refractive effects that can't simply be printed out onto a sheet of plastic as a given "color."
posted by yoink at 9:44 AM on August 26, 2014
Except, when was the last time you (if you're "white") or any "white" person you know put on a band-aid and thought "wow, that really disappears against my skin"? If you're wearing a band-aid, it's immediately and often pretty starkly visible.
I think part of the problem with characterizing the color of "white" skin is simply that it's so translucent. You're getting layers of different colors and also some weird reflective and refractive effects that can't simply be printed out onto a sheet of plastic as a given "color."
posted by yoink at 9:44 AM on August 26, 2014
You're right, of course, especially about the translucency issue. But the thing is, there are so many colors of Band-Aids! And I do actually own a bra, in a hue best described as "Band-Aid," that comes pretty darn close to disappearing against my skin, especially under a sheer layer.
The take away being, I guess, that Band-Aids, like humans, can contain multitudes.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 11:35 AM on August 26, 2014
The take away being, I guess, that Band-Aids, like humans, can contain multitudes.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 11:35 AM on August 26, 2014
Lots of variation in the skin color of people who consider themselves "white." For that matter, people who don't consider themselves "white" can also have translucent skin.
Also layers of different colors, yeah, that's true for every skin tone.
posted by sweetkid at 11:40 AM on August 26, 2014
Also layers of different colors, yeah, that's true for every skin tone.
posted by sweetkid at 11:40 AM on August 26, 2014
Except, when was the last time you (if you're "white") or any "white" person you know put on a band-aid and thought "wow, that really disappears against my skin"? If you're wearing a band-aid, it's immediately and often pretty starkly visible.
It's minor, but relevant - it's virtually impossible to find non-white-flesh-tone band-aids. You think it's visible on white skin? Try it on brown.
This is why I try buy myself kids band-aids with pirates or dinosaurs or whatever. They're going to stand out anyway, they might as well be fun.
It turns out I'm not the only one that finds this annoying. See also, the Atlantic - The Story of the Black Band-Aid
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:10 PM on August 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's minor, but relevant - it's virtually impossible to find non-white-flesh-tone band-aids. You think it's visible on white skin? Try it on brown.
This is why I try buy myself kids band-aids with pirates or dinosaurs or whatever. They're going to stand out anyway, they might as well be fun.
It turns out I'm not the only one that finds this annoying. See also, the Atlantic - The Story of the Black Band-Aid
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:10 PM on August 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Weirdly appropriate to this thread, from that last link:
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:03 PM on August 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
"The bandage exclusively designed for people of color," and they came in shades called black licorice, coffee brown, cinnamon, and honey beige.[My emphases]
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:03 PM on August 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
"The bandage exclusively designed for people of color," and they came in shades called black licorice, coffee brown, cinnamon, and honey beige.
Yeah, well. The issue is not really comparing skin tones to food. Food is a convenient touchstone. It's more 'white as default', and the objectification and fetishisation of non-white skin as Shepherd said above; the apparent need of writers (often hack writers) to describe every type of skin outside of average Caucasian range in weird, fetishized, usually-food language.
Confession: I once tested my skin against various varieties of chocolate. Depending on the time of year and my tan, I'm either Cadbury's Dairy Milk or more of a Haigh's choc caramel fudge.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:34 PM on August 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
Yeah, well. The issue is not really comparing skin tones to food. Food is a convenient touchstone. It's more 'white as default', and the objectification and fetishisation of non-white skin as Shepherd said above; the apparent need of writers (often hack writers) to describe every type of skin outside of average Caucasian range in weird, fetishized, usually-food language.
Confession: I once tested my skin against various varieties of chocolate. Depending on the time of year and my tan, I'm either Cadbury's Dairy Milk or more of a Haigh's choc caramel fudge.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:34 PM on August 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
I ... don't think I'd eat anything that had my skin colour. If I had to pick a similar shade, I think it would be "tinned salmon with an unfamiliar label that seems to be surprisingly cheap until you bring it home and open it".
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:54 PM on August 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:54 PM on August 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's more 'white as default', and the objectification and fetishisation of non-white skin
I'm not sure I buy the premise. There are plenty of adjectives for caucasian skin and it's variations, some even food related: fair, florid, peaches and cream, pale, ghostly, rosy, pink, pasty, tanned, ruddy, sallow, bronzed. Indeed, given the skinny variations that white folk enjoy/suffer, what a gift to the writer for the character to be white.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:18 AM on September 3, 2014
I'm not sure I buy the premise. There are plenty of adjectives for caucasian skin and it's variations, some even food related: fair, florid, peaches and cream, pale, ghostly, rosy, pink, pasty, tanned, ruddy, sallow, bronzed. Indeed, given the skinny variations that white folk enjoy/suffer, what a gift to the writer for the character to be white.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:18 AM on September 3, 2014
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I did once read someone described as having skin like good cocaine.
posted by The Whelk at 7:50 AM on August 24, 2014 [3 favorites]