Neocons are alive and well and playing with Ukraine.
September 7, 2014 8:35 AM Subscribe
Whats and whys of the of the Ukraine crisis. Some of what the MSM is ignoring.
What do Neocons want from the Ukraine Crisis?
Juan Cole - The Neocon comeback.
Did you know about America's Dirty Little Ukraine Secret which has Republican overtones?
Putin, for all his authoritarianism, is not the cause of the Ukrainian conundrum (though he is certainly exploiting it).
There is a genuine divide in Ukraine between a nationalist-dominated west and a Russian-speaking east.
What do Neocons want from the Ukraine Crisis?
Juan Cole - The Neocon comeback.
Did you know about America's Dirty Little Ukraine Secret which has Republican overtones?
Putin, for all his authoritarianism, is not the cause of the Ukrainian conundrum (though he is certainly exploiting it).
There is a genuine divide in Ukraine between a nationalist-dominated west and a Russian-speaking east.
For a more complete and balanced picture of what's going on in the world, turn off your television.
posted by fredludd at 9:09 AM on September 7, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by fredludd at 9:09 AM on September 7, 2014 [12 favorites]
America's Dirty Little Ukraine Secret
We are still collaborating with Nazis in the Ukraine:
Azov Battalion: Kiev throws paramilitaries – some openly neo-Nazi - into the front of the battle with rebels
Ukraine conflict: 'White power' warrior from Sweden
and Vice News is even embedded with them.
Also,
posted by ennui.bz at 9:12 AM on September 7, 2014 [8 favorites]
We are still collaborating with Nazis in the Ukraine:
Azov Battalion: Kiev throws paramilitaries – some openly neo-Nazi - into the front of the battle with rebels
Ukraine conflict: 'White power' warrior from Sweden
and Vice News is even embedded with them.
Also,
Ukrainian nationalist groupings around the Orange Revolution were sharply divided against each other, and there was rampant corruption, and people voted them out. The United States was very aggressive in trying to keep the nationalists in power, but they lost the election. The United States was spending money through the National Endowment for Democracy, which was pumping money into various Ukrainian organizations, and they were doing the same thing in Russia and many other countries around the world as well. We're talking about many millions of dollars a year to affect the politics of these countries.So, when Putin says Russians separatists are fighting against fascists in the Ukraine after US intelligence agencies destablized the government, he is speaking factually.
posted by ennui.bz at 9:12 AM on September 7, 2014 [8 favorites]
For a more complete and balanced picture of what's going on in the world, turn off your television.
My news diet is nearly entirely radio-based NPR, BBC, and CBC. I don't watch television news, except for Gay USA and the occasional flirtation with Democracy Now. I don't feel I'm getting a "complete and balanced picture" of what's going on in the world, especially not Ukraine.
What is your secret, other than shutting off this one device?
posted by hippybear at 9:18 AM on September 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
My news diet is nearly entirely radio-based NPR, BBC, and CBC. I don't watch television news, except for Gay USA and the occasional flirtation with Democracy Now. I don't feel I'm getting a "complete and balanced picture" of what's going on in the world, especially not Ukraine.
What is your secret, other than shutting off this one device?
posted by hippybear at 9:18 AM on September 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
So four out of five links are from the same source (Robert Parry, who's written three of the articles, including the one labelled "Juan Cole", and owns the site where the fourth one is). Complete and balanced, indeed.
posted by effbot at 9:18 AM on September 7, 2014 [26 favorites]
posted by effbot at 9:18 AM on September 7, 2014 [26 favorites]
Vladimir Putin's propaganda makes it to the Nation and now to the Blue. Yuck.
posted by humanfont at 9:19 AM on September 7, 2014 [20 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 9:19 AM on September 7, 2014 [20 favorites]
"So, when Putin says Russians separatists are fighting against fascists in the Ukraine after US intelligence agencies destablized the government, he is speaking factually."
Sure. But this would be like if right-wing nationalists with fascist affiliations in the Philippines were encouraged by Russia to oppose the US's imperialistic influence on a government led by a US puppet, with a subsequent revolutionary fall of that government, were then used by the US as a pretext to invade the Philippines to protect (real) US interests there because, hey, fascists.
I'd say that the imperial power is the real threat to democracy.
Given that in this case there are two imperial powers, both the US and Russia, and the right-wing nationalists are used by each for their own purposes, I still think I'm going to side with the group that's actual citizens of their country defending themselves from what is effectively a foreign invasion.
I think the Russian-speaking and affiliated eastern population has legitimate concerns and, given the extremism of the Kiev government, rightly ought to have their interests protected and some autonomy. But let's not kid ourselves that what Putin is doing is that. He's no more concerned with the welfare of Ukrainians than is the US. They are basically fodder for this proxy war. As it ever was.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:28 AM on September 7, 2014 [14 favorites]
Sure. But this would be like if right-wing nationalists with fascist affiliations in the Philippines were encouraged by Russia to oppose the US's imperialistic influence on a government led by a US puppet, with a subsequent revolutionary fall of that government, were then used by the US as a pretext to invade the Philippines to protect (real) US interests there because, hey, fascists.
I'd say that the imperial power is the real threat to democracy.
Given that in this case there are two imperial powers, both the US and Russia, and the right-wing nationalists are used by each for their own purposes, I still think I'm going to side with the group that's actual citizens of their country defending themselves from what is effectively a foreign invasion.
I think the Russian-speaking and affiliated eastern population has legitimate concerns and, given the extremism of the Kiev government, rightly ought to have their interests protected and some autonomy. But let's not kid ourselves that what Putin is doing is that. He's no more concerned with the welfare of Ukrainians than is the US. They are basically fodder for this proxy war. As it ever was.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:28 AM on September 7, 2014 [14 favorites]
effbot: "So four out of five links are from the same source (Robert Parry, who's written three of the articles, including the one labelled "Juan Cole", and owns the site where the fourth one is). Complete and balanced, indeed."
Pardon my ignorance - is Robert Parry a known shill of some sort? The Juan Cole one has a couple of comments from Cole himself, clearly in support of the arguments put forth by the article.
posted by vanar sena at 9:28 AM on September 7, 2014
Pardon my ignorance - is Robert Parry a known shill of some sort? The Juan Cole one has a couple of comments from Cole himself, clearly in support of the arguments put forth by the article.
posted by vanar sena at 9:28 AM on September 7, 2014
> There is a genuine divide in Ukraine between a nationalist-dominated west and a Russian-speaking east.
Very true, and Katz emphasizes an important fact that is indeed swept under the rug in most Western discussions of the situation, the fascist affiliations of important figures in Ukraine. I think he overemphasizes it, though; understandably (he was fired from Vilnius University for speaking out against "the trend of Holocaust Obfuscation which has gripped Lithuania and several other countries in Central and Eastern Europe"), but still, it's vital to retain as much perspective as possible. The important word in "the racial chauvinism of some of the nationalist elite now in or close to the government" is "some"; while that situation is worrying, Ukraine does not have a fascist government, nor is it likely to have one. In this situation, if it has to be broken down to a simplistic dichotomy (which, let's face it, it does when deciding who to support), Ukraine is the good guys and Putin is the bad guy, and any approach that gives even inadvertent support to Putin's "We're just helping upright citizens fight Nazis" bullshit needs to be rethought.
History is of course important, and retroactive support for fascist murderers is reprehensible in Ukraine, Lithuania, or any of the other countries where it's happening, but 1) you have to cut people some slack when they're trying to come to terms with a historical situation (WWII) when the only people helping them fight the hated Soviet oppressors were fascists of various descriptions, and 2) what's truly important right now is what's happening right now, which is Russian and Russian-identified thugs killing and oppressing locals in a war that's being both supported and covertly carried on by Russia. Dealing with problematic trends in Ukraine can wait till its borders are secure.
On preview:
> Vladimir Putin's propaganda makes it to the Nation and now to the Blue. Yuck.
This isn't "Putin's propaganda," it's a MeFi post with a bunch of links, and it doesn't help to present any deviation from the General Line as enemy propaganda. Let's try to keep discussion of difficult issues on a higher level than that.
posted by languagehat at 9:29 AM on September 7, 2014 [42 favorites]
Very true, and Katz emphasizes an important fact that is indeed swept under the rug in most Western discussions of the situation, the fascist affiliations of important figures in Ukraine. I think he overemphasizes it, though; understandably (he was fired from Vilnius University for speaking out against "the trend of Holocaust Obfuscation which has gripped Lithuania and several other countries in Central and Eastern Europe"), but still, it's vital to retain as much perspective as possible. The important word in "the racial chauvinism of some of the nationalist elite now in or close to the government" is "some"; while that situation is worrying, Ukraine does not have a fascist government, nor is it likely to have one. In this situation, if it has to be broken down to a simplistic dichotomy (which, let's face it, it does when deciding who to support), Ukraine is the good guys and Putin is the bad guy, and any approach that gives even inadvertent support to Putin's "We're just helping upright citizens fight Nazis" bullshit needs to be rethought.
History is of course important, and retroactive support for fascist murderers is reprehensible in Ukraine, Lithuania, or any of the other countries where it's happening, but 1) you have to cut people some slack when they're trying to come to terms with a historical situation (WWII) when the only people helping them fight the hated Soviet oppressors were fascists of various descriptions, and 2) what's truly important right now is what's happening right now, which is Russian and Russian-identified thugs killing and oppressing locals in a war that's being both supported and covertly carried on by Russia. Dealing with problematic trends in Ukraine can wait till its borders are secure.
On preview:
> Vladimir Putin's propaganda makes it to the Nation and now to the Blue. Yuck.
This isn't "Putin's propaganda," it's a MeFi post with a bunch of links, and it doesn't help to present any deviation from the General Line as enemy propaganda. Let's try to keep discussion of difficult issues on a higher level than that.
posted by languagehat at 9:29 AM on September 7, 2014 [42 favorites]
i hate it when the world is not painted in easy shades of black and white.
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 9:35 AM on September 7, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 9:35 AM on September 7, 2014 [5 favorites]
Pardon my ignorance - is Robert Parry a known shill of some sort?
As best I can tell based on some poking around online, Parry is a journalist who made a pretty big name for himself reporting on the Iran-Contra affair, winning some awards in the process, but who has since sort of gotten tangled in his own cloak and seems to be leaning more and more toward conspiracy-theory history in what he writes, although he still turns out some real journalism that is respected from time to time.
Consortium News is his baby, and he seems to do a lot of the writing for it. He gets some criticism for how much of his writing is based on unnamed sources and unrevealed source documents. Which may be par for the course for someone who is trying to do in-depth cutting edge investigative journalism.
posted by hippybear at 9:39 AM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
As best I can tell based on some poking around online, Parry is a journalist who made a pretty big name for himself reporting on the Iran-Contra affair, winning some awards in the process, but who has since sort of gotten tangled in his own cloak and seems to be leaning more and more toward conspiracy-theory history in what he writes, although he still turns out some real journalism that is respected from time to time.
Consortium News is his baby, and he seems to do a lot of the writing for it. He gets some criticism for how much of his writing is based on unnamed sources and unrevealed source documents. Which may be par for the course for someone who is trying to do in-depth cutting edge investigative journalism.
posted by hippybear at 9:39 AM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
The whole Ukraine thing is really odd, because it seems like whether you're in a Western democracy or in Russia, the actual real picture of what is going on is not being presented to the populace of either side. Maybe the BBC is doing the best job all around, based on links in that final article.
I saw an article in Der Spiegel on Twitter yesterday that was an amazing use of the Konjunktiv I in virtually every sentence because they had almost nothing verifiable to report. So I guess the level of propaganda is handy for German teachers.
posted by hoyland at 9:43 AM on September 7, 2014 [5 favorites]
I saw an article in Der Spiegel on Twitter yesterday that was an amazing use of the Konjunktiv I in virtually every sentence because they had almost nothing verifiable to report. So I guess the level of propaganda is handy for German teachers.
posted by hoyland at 9:43 AM on September 7, 2014 [5 favorites]
Fascism Comes to Ukraine -- From Russia:
There is little doubt that the Ukrainian nationalist movement, like any nationalism, has its ugly side—from thuggish soccer fans, implicated in the violence in Odessa, to more sinister groups that flirt with Nazi imagery and speak of “Ukraine for Ukrainians.” But the overwhelming evidence is that these elements are marginal and very far from controlling Ukraine’s agenda. If there is a “neo-Nazi junta” in power in Kiev, it would be the first such junta in history to have the active support of the Jewish community and give key posts to Jews.posted by stbalbach at 9:44 AM on September 7, 2014 [10 favorites]
what's truly important right now is what's happening right now, which is Russian and Russian-identified thugs killing and oppressing locals in a war that's being both supported and covertly carried on by Russia. Dealing with problematic trends in Ukraine can wait till its borders are secure.
but what I think is happening is that true militarists in the US are becoming ascendant i.e. the neocons. You can see the result of this in the middle east and the Ukraine. the fact that we are committed to baiting Russia e.g. Georgia is what is truly worrisome (Would you like to play thermonuclear war?.) That Putin is both responding militarily and taking advantage of the general idiocy and US policy is secondary to the fact that the world's largest military power has put itself on a course towards provoking and participating in wars across the globe.
you have to cut people some slack when they're trying to come to terms with a historical situation (WWII) when the only people helping them fight the hated Soviet oppressors were fascists of various descriptions
well, the only people left after the fascists (right and left) slaughtered the opposition. talking about 'the lesser of two evils' isn't the basis of any analysis of history (or the present.) The willingness to cooperate with fascists tells me a lot about a political grouping. You could use the same rationale to cut Molotov/Stalin some slack for the Ribbentrop pact.
posted by ennui.bz at 9:44 AM on September 7, 2014
but what I think is happening is that true militarists in the US are becoming ascendant i.e. the neocons. You can see the result of this in the middle east and the Ukraine. the fact that we are committed to baiting Russia e.g. Georgia is what is truly worrisome (Would you like to play thermonuclear war?.) That Putin is both responding militarily and taking advantage of the general idiocy and US policy is secondary to the fact that the world's largest military power has put itself on a course towards provoking and participating in wars across the globe.
you have to cut people some slack when they're trying to come to terms with a historical situation (WWII) when the only people helping them fight the hated Soviet oppressors were fascists of various descriptions
well, the only people left after the fascists (right and left) slaughtered the opposition. talking about 'the lesser of two evils' isn't the basis of any analysis of history (or the present.) The willingness to cooperate with fascists tells me a lot about a political grouping. You could use the same rationale to cut Molotov/Stalin some slack for the Ribbentrop pact.
posted by ennui.bz at 9:44 AM on September 7, 2014
you have to cut people some slack when they're trying to come to terms with a historical situation (WWII) when the only people helping them fight the hated Soviet oppressors were fascists of various descriptions
I disagree with this completely. The OUN-B were collaborators, full stop, and the Nazis were no more "helping them" than Putin is "helping" the Russian speaking people in the Donbass region today. Attempts to rehabilitate them are part of the dangerous resurgence of fascism in Europe today, and should be opposed unconditionally.
Beyond that I think it's necessary to talk about the far right and fascist influences in Ukraine, including in the government, without taking the unwarranted step (which Putin's propaganda takes gleefully) and saying that the current Ukrainian government is fascist.
posted by graymouser at 9:45 AM on September 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
I disagree with this completely. The OUN-B were collaborators, full stop, and the Nazis were no more "helping them" than Putin is "helping" the Russian speaking people in the Donbass region today. Attempts to rehabilitate them are part of the dangerous resurgence of fascism in Europe today, and should be opposed unconditionally.
Beyond that I think it's necessary to talk about the far right and fascist influences in Ukraine, including in the government, without taking the unwarranted step (which Putin's propaganda takes gleefully) and saying that the current Ukrainian government is fascist.
posted by graymouser at 9:45 AM on September 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Svoboda (wiki) is the old National Socialist Party in new clothes and has some ''interesting'' friends. It has three government positions.
Also Somebody needs to get involved in Ukraine's corporate governance, and it might as well be a clutch of rich, well-connected American dudes with weird first names."
posted by adamvasco at 9:58 AM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also Somebody needs to get involved in Ukraine's corporate governance, and it might as well be a clutch of rich, well-connected American dudes with weird first names."
posted by adamvasco at 9:58 AM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that some of the many Ukrainian people fighting off a Russian funded, supplied, and organized regional insurgency were not very nice people.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:24 AM on September 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:24 AM on September 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
> but what I think is happening is that true militarists in the US are becoming ascendant i.e. the neocons
Seriously? You think what's really happening in Ukraine has to do with US neocons? Hoo boy.
> The OUN-B were collaborators, full stop, and the Nazis were no more "helping them" than Putin is "helping" the Russian speaking people in the Donbass region today.
Putin is helping the Russian-speaking people in the Donbass region. Just because you don't approve of him or them doesn't mean he isn't helping them. And let's suppose (for the sake of argument) that the Ukrainian government was in fact the genocidal fascist dictatorship portrayed by Russian media, and the Russian-speaking people in the Donbass had a realistic fear of being murdered if they succumbed; would you say they should refuse help from Putin because he is a Bad Person?
Boy, it sure is easy to criticize the choices of people faced with impossible choices. Some of you would do well to read, say, Oksana Zabuzhko's novel The Museum of Abandoned Secrets (I reviewed it here) and get a gut-level feel for what it was like to be in that situation. Or you can just carry on with your complacent sense that a few generalities and a sense of righteousness is enough. It's certainly easier.
posted by languagehat at 10:24 AM on September 7, 2014 [11 favorites]
Seriously? You think what's really happening in Ukraine has to do with US neocons? Hoo boy.
> The OUN-B were collaborators, full stop, and the Nazis were no more "helping them" than Putin is "helping" the Russian speaking people in the Donbass region today.
Putin is helping the Russian-speaking people in the Donbass region. Just because you don't approve of him or them doesn't mean he isn't helping them. And let's suppose (for the sake of argument) that the Ukrainian government was in fact the genocidal fascist dictatorship portrayed by Russian media, and the Russian-speaking people in the Donbass had a realistic fear of being murdered if they succumbed; would you say they should refuse help from Putin because he is a Bad Person?
Boy, it sure is easy to criticize the choices of people faced with impossible choices. Some of you would do well to read, say, Oksana Zabuzhko's novel The Museum of Abandoned Secrets (I reviewed it here) and get a gut-level feel for what it was like to be in that situation. Or you can just carry on with your complacent sense that a few generalities and a sense of righteousness is enough. It's certainly easier.
posted by languagehat at 10:24 AM on September 7, 2014 [11 favorites]
"...but what I think is happening is that true militarists in the US are becoming ascendant i.e. the neocons."
I've been making this point for over ten years, so I doubt it's going to make much difference now, but the militarists you're talking about aren't really the "necons". The neocons were useful idiots who were available to put a veneer of idealism on top of what was and is a widely diverse core of realpolitik and naked self-interest in a militarized pursuit of imperialistic American foreign policy. That is to say, the vast majority of the Washington establishment. Certainly even moreso the GOP than the Democratic Party, but also including the majority of the Democratic Party establishment.
Always talking about neocons as if they're some sort of shady, ascendent group that is the primary source of the US's militarized interventionist foreign policy is playing into the hands of the actual people and institutions responsible. Perle, Wolfowitz and others were dispensable public figures intended to be the focus of public scrutiny, and their political fates have proven this. PNAC was a means to an end and never represented any sort of real groundswell of actual neoconservative thought in foreign policy. Where it actually mattered, which were actual policies upon occupation relating to the neoconservative project, the neocons were ignored.
Likewise, the people in the GOP, on the right, and elsewhere in American public opinion who are pushing an interventionist, and even militarized line on Ukraine are not neocons. I don't doubt that actual neocons are practically rabid about the idea of protecting western-philic Ukrainian democracy from Russia, but I have doubts that those neocons would think that a US military involvement would promote that. Maybe so, I don't really want to go check because I have approximately zero interest in what those insanely foolish neocons have to say; I've had my fill of them.
No, all this agitation is just your perennial American militarized swagger. There really isn't that much actual American economic interest in Ukraine, there's not that much at stake for the realpolitik types to care about. But people like McCain aren't neocons, they're just old-fashioned American imperialists who think every foreign policy problem has a bomber, aircraft carrier, and tank as the solution. Or, really, just being bellicose because all those foreigners should be afraid of the US.
And you're not going to do much about that because it's deeply embedded into American culture. Even at our most isolationist, we were still imperialistic with regard to Central and South America. Now, when we think the whole world is our concern and that our interests are always at stake, Americans are inherently willing to see military force as the first means of response. At times, such as recently been the case, when there's fatigue of actual war and overseas deployments for long periods, there's a fair bit of American sentiment that's unhappy with the idea of boots on the ground. But they'll always be fine with airstrikes.
I don't know what you expect, but this isn't going to change.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:25 AM on September 7, 2014 [20 favorites]
I've been making this point for over ten years, so I doubt it's going to make much difference now, but the militarists you're talking about aren't really the "necons". The neocons were useful idiots who were available to put a veneer of idealism on top of what was and is a widely diverse core of realpolitik and naked self-interest in a militarized pursuit of imperialistic American foreign policy. That is to say, the vast majority of the Washington establishment. Certainly even moreso the GOP than the Democratic Party, but also including the majority of the Democratic Party establishment.
Always talking about neocons as if they're some sort of shady, ascendent group that is the primary source of the US's militarized interventionist foreign policy is playing into the hands of the actual people and institutions responsible. Perle, Wolfowitz and others were dispensable public figures intended to be the focus of public scrutiny, and their political fates have proven this. PNAC was a means to an end and never represented any sort of real groundswell of actual neoconservative thought in foreign policy. Where it actually mattered, which were actual policies upon occupation relating to the neoconservative project, the neocons were ignored.
Likewise, the people in the GOP, on the right, and elsewhere in American public opinion who are pushing an interventionist, and even militarized line on Ukraine are not neocons. I don't doubt that actual neocons are practically rabid about the idea of protecting western-philic Ukrainian democracy from Russia, but I have doubts that those neocons would think that a US military involvement would promote that. Maybe so, I don't really want to go check because I have approximately zero interest in what those insanely foolish neocons have to say; I've had my fill of them.
No, all this agitation is just your perennial American militarized swagger. There really isn't that much actual American economic interest in Ukraine, there's not that much at stake for the realpolitik types to care about. But people like McCain aren't neocons, they're just old-fashioned American imperialists who think every foreign policy problem has a bomber, aircraft carrier, and tank as the solution. Or, really, just being bellicose because all those foreigners should be afraid of the US.
And you're not going to do much about that because it's deeply embedded into American culture. Even at our most isolationist, we were still imperialistic with regard to Central and South America. Now, when we think the whole world is our concern and that our interests are always at stake, Americans are inherently willing to see military force as the first means of response. At times, such as recently been the case, when there's fatigue of actual war and overseas deployments for long periods, there's a fair bit of American sentiment that's unhappy with the idea of boots on the ground. But they'll always be fine with airstrikes.
I don't know what you expect, but this isn't going to change.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:25 AM on September 7, 2014 [20 favorites]
Neocons are a virulent strain of the same old disease of imperialism. Like the flu, it's endemic, but expresses itself through mutated agents during different periods. Sometimes it's anti-communists who are ascendant, sometimes naked corporate profiteers ascendant, sometimes even manifest destiny or even religiously motivated, all mingling in the same festering rot of imperialism.
Yes, of course Putin is brutally invading Ukraine in a war of aggression, there's no doubt about it. There is also no doubt that our knuckleheads imagine that somehow sticking their fingers into this mess is advisable. Nothing we do is going to stop Putin, or get Crimea back. Should we oppose Putin's imperialism? Yes. Should we arm or finance or directly insert ourselves into the conflict? No. There are plenty of diplomatic and soft power options to register our outrage without counterproductive shenanigans from the idiots in our national security conglomerate.
posted by VikingSword at 10:42 AM on September 7, 2014 [10 favorites]
Yes, of course Putin is brutally invading Ukraine in a war of aggression, there's no doubt about it. There is also no doubt that our knuckleheads imagine that somehow sticking their fingers into this mess is advisable. Nothing we do is going to stop Putin, or get Crimea back. Should we oppose Putin's imperialism? Yes. Should we arm or finance or directly insert ourselves into the conflict? No. There are plenty of diplomatic and soft power options to register our outrage without counterproductive shenanigans from the idiots in our national security conglomerate.
posted by VikingSword at 10:42 AM on September 7, 2014 [10 favorites]
Seriously? You think what's really happening in Ukraine has to do with US neocons? Hoo boy.
I've been making this point for over ten years, so I doubt it's going to make much difference now, but the militarists you're talking about aren't really the "neocons".
Nope. Didn't say that. The problem is that even people like Ambassador Powers have adopted militarism as the basic US posture (from a different basis than the neocons.) So, whatever your ideology in US foreign policy circles the answer seems to be increasingly: war! You'll see this confirmed in the coming Hillary Clinton candacy: she's embraced both Kissinger and the Kagans.
US foreign policy in Eastern Europe has been deliberated provocative towards Russia. Regardless of whether you like Putin or not, that the color revolutions happened with US government (intelligence) support is, I think, a fact. That the US encouraged Saakashvili in Georgia and then abandoned him once the Russians intervened is alarmingly similar to what is happening in the Ukraine now. The problem is that both the US and Putin benefit from making Russia into an enemy. Putin gets to expand the power of Russia in it's periphery and the US keeps NATO relevant. The problem is that Putin, by his actions, has proven himself a self-interested realist, whereas US policy is driven by opaque ideological fights within the state power structure, magical thinking, and a corrupt political culture. I don't think Putin is in danger of igniting a broader war, I think certain US elites are still hungering (after the Cold War) for a larger military conflict.
One of the biggest lies of the Reagan era was not just that the US could win a nuclear war with the Soviet Union, but the idea (propagated by people like Tom Clancy) that the US could fight a purely conventional war with the USSR. Every Pentagon simulation of WWIII always ended in a nuclear exchange; everyone eventually pushes the button. Hearing the, frankly insane, talk surrounding the situation in the Ukraine coming form US foreign policy circles makes me think that zombie Reagan still has his finger on the button.
posted by ennui.bz at 10:52 AM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
I've been making this point for over ten years, so I doubt it's going to make much difference now, but the militarists you're talking about aren't really the "neocons".
Nope. Didn't say that. The problem is that even people like Ambassador Powers have adopted militarism as the basic US posture (from a different basis than the neocons.) So, whatever your ideology in US foreign policy circles the answer seems to be increasingly: war! You'll see this confirmed in the coming Hillary Clinton candacy: she's embraced both Kissinger and the Kagans.
US foreign policy in Eastern Europe has been deliberated provocative towards Russia. Regardless of whether you like Putin or not, that the color revolutions happened with US government (intelligence) support is, I think, a fact. That the US encouraged Saakashvili in Georgia and then abandoned him once the Russians intervened is alarmingly similar to what is happening in the Ukraine now. The problem is that both the US and Putin benefit from making Russia into an enemy. Putin gets to expand the power of Russia in it's periphery and the US keeps NATO relevant. The problem is that Putin, by his actions, has proven himself a self-interested realist, whereas US policy is driven by opaque ideological fights within the state power structure, magical thinking, and a corrupt political culture. I don't think Putin is in danger of igniting a broader war, I think certain US elites are still hungering (after the Cold War) for a larger military conflict.
One of the biggest lies of the Reagan era was not just that the US could win a nuclear war with the Soviet Union, but the idea (propagated by people like Tom Clancy) that the US could fight a purely conventional war with the USSR. Every Pentagon simulation of WWIII always ended in a nuclear exchange; everyone eventually pushes the button. Hearing the, frankly insane, talk surrounding the situation in the Ukraine coming form US foreign policy circles makes me think that zombie Reagan still has his finger on the button.
posted by ennui.bz at 10:52 AM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
Why are we calling the Ukrainian government fascists but not Putin? He seems to meet most of the prerequisites for the term (nationalist, corporatist, oppressive of critics and non-majority ethnic groups). Surely there is room for the possibility that everybody involved is a fascist?
posted by hydropsyche at 10:53 AM on September 7, 2014 [17 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 10:53 AM on September 7, 2014 [17 favorites]
Boy, it sure is easy to criticize the choices of people faced with impossible choices.
Just to be clear, do you acknowledge that the current government in Kiev is, broadly speaking, right-wing and Ukrainian ethnic-nationalist?
Because, sometimes, allying with Nazis is easier for some people than others...
posted by ennui.bz at 10:57 AM on September 7, 2014
Just to be clear, do you acknowledge that the current government in Kiev is, broadly speaking, right-wing and Ukrainian ethnic-nationalist?
Because, sometimes, allying with Nazis is easier for some people than others...
posted by ennui.bz at 10:57 AM on September 7, 2014
"Orange Revolution Redux In The Ukraine? The U.S. Should Stay Out Of This Fight"
posted by smudgedlens at 11:06 AM on September 7, 2014
posted by smudgedlens at 11:06 AM on September 7, 2014
Also,
No, all this agitation is just your perennial American militarized swagger. There really isn't that much actual American economic interest in Ukraine, there's not that much at stake for the realpolitik types to care about. But people like McCain aren't neocons, they're just old-fashioned American imperialists who think every foreign policy problem has a bomber, aircraft carrier, and tank as the solution. Or, really, just being bellicose because all those foreigners should be afraid of the US.
that's like saying this is just an old fashioned forest fire, burning out of control (see WWI.)
posted by ennui.bz at 11:10 AM on September 7, 2014
No, all this agitation is just your perennial American militarized swagger. There really isn't that much actual American economic interest in Ukraine, there's not that much at stake for the realpolitik types to care about. But people like McCain aren't neocons, they're just old-fashioned American imperialists who think every foreign policy problem has a bomber, aircraft carrier, and tank as the solution. Or, really, just being bellicose because all those foreigners should be afraid of the US.
that's like saying this is just an old fashioned forest fire, burning out of control (see WWI.)
posted by ennui.bz at 11:10 AM on September 7, 2014
I thought this article was interesting: With his foreign policy, Barack Obama is trying to win by playing a loser’s game
Amateurs and professionals, said Ellis, are playing two different games. Professional tennis is a winner’s game, in which it pays to take the initiative. Bold and aggressive tactics are the path to victory. The professional player thinks carefully about strategy and executes it ruthlessly. Amateur tennis is a loser’s game: the way to win is simply to be the player who makes the fewest errors....posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:26 AM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
President Obama’s startling admission last week that he did not have a strategy to deal with ISIS was not an accident. His strategy is to not have a strategy (he recently said that foreign policy is not “a chess game”). If you’re playing in a loser’s game, strategy is unnecessary. You take each move as it comes, avoid errors, and eke out incremental victories where you can. You play safe...
But in foreign policy, even when you are the most powerful country in the world, there are no safe options. When the world is as volatile as it is now, each seemingly low-risk policy comes with a high risk attached. By deciding not to intervene in Syria, Obama may have allowed its civil war to spread to Iraq. By not confronting Russia more directly over the Crimea, he may have given it the confidence to seize Kiev.
This is the problem with playing the loser’s game in dangerous times. Attempting to play safe shots in a risky environment, you put yourself at the mercy of less cautious actors like Vladimir Putin or ISIS who play the game as if they are winners and occasionally bring off audacious victories.
The 'winner's game vs. loser's game' analogy is kind of stupid, because the only way you can play a 'winner's game' (I hate that term, talk about biasing the argument) is if you're skilled enough that you can avoid errors without focusing on it. If an unskilled player tries to play in this manner, they will be absolutely destroyed by a cautious player, because they'll constantly mess up in the way the cautious player relies upon. And while I don't know about Putin, ISIS is exactly the kind of overconfident, hotheaded force that will constantly screw up and can be systematically dismantled by a cautious opponent. The 'loser's game' is exactly the way to deal with them.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:49 AM on September 7, 2014 [20 favorites]
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:49 AM on September 7, 2014 [20 favorites]
This is like some kind of Consortium ad? And when I hear that O is preparing a secret plan and working feverishly behind the scenes.... just stop that. And in reaction to all these words... and the spin... I think these pics are more interesting.
posted by wallstreet1929 at 12:11 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by wallstreet1929 at 12:11 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
By deciding not to intervene in Syria, Obama may have allowed its civil war to spread to Iraq. By not confronting Russia more directly over the Crimea, he may have given it the confidence to seize Kiev.
This guy is a moron. Obama's mistakes insofar as he's made them, was to intervene in Syria at all - financing and arming the rebels, and encouraging our local co-conspirators in SA and the gulf states to do even more, was a huge mistake. Not doing that, would have at least allowed the conflict to be much more contained (and perhaps not even erupted in the first place - bombing Libya, another stupid interventionist mistake, was a green signal to those who decided on armed conflict with Assad). To say "double down on the mistake" by financing and arming on even a bigger scale, and even attacking directly with rockets, would have merely made the situation that much worse, and in fact possibly gotten chemical weapons in ISIS hands. Obama got CW out of Syria - not something that would have happened in the event we shot our wad by rocketing them, and then having zero cooperation from Assad and Russia.
And how exactly would we have "confronted" Putin over Crimea? Maybe some rockets or drones? Idiot. Nothing we did or did not do, was going to change Putin's actions. If anything, I personally remain convinced the West bungled Ukraine by pushing them so nakedly into the Western camp and fuelling Putin's paranoia and sense of offended imperialist entitlement. But then again, I think the West bungled Russia since 1991 too - and even going back further the U.S.S.R with the Cold War - and even back further yet, by intervening in the Russian Civil War of 1918, and earlier yet by... etc.. Non-stop string of idiocy results whenever we feel like we should insert military forces and weaponry in other countries civil wars, usually with zero insight into the local conditions or history. Now this moron proposes we should have done more interventions, since Iraq turned out so well.
The entire analogy is idiotic. He's got it exactly backwards. Foreign policy is more akin to the stock market than to tennis, on account of basic facts: you have a sufficient degree of control in a game of tennis, so there an active strategy pays off - whereas the world is a chaotic place and the element of chance is even greater than in the stock market, therefore you need to base your strategy on controlling risk and contingency planning and exit strategies.
What is missing is the big picture: military force and intervention is only one tool in the toolbox. It is an important tool, but it's like a fireman's ax. You use it in exceptional emergency situations, you don't pull it out to crack nuts, because the chances of someone getting terribly hurt and mayhem are very high - you'll get the nut smashed to smithereens and destroy the table to boot. Leave it alone, for emergencies. Look to the rest of the toolbox. Take all that "defense" (read: imperial military complex) money and invest in your own economy. Spend all that intellectual energy on innovation, education and competitiveness. Your economy will benefit, your population will benefit, the world will benefit - and you'll be far more powerful to boot. Expand that power, the soft power of ideas, economic engagement and ideological persuasion - all far more powerful with an economy that's superior in development, instead of misspent resources in a stupid military complex that saps our strength and invites bleeding adventurism and the resulting chaos.
posted by VikingSword at 12:11 PM on September 7, 2014 [12 favorites]
This guy is a moron. Obama's mistakes insofar as he's made them, was to intervene in Syria at all - financing and arming the rebels, and encouraging our local co-conspirators in SA and the gulf states to do even more, was a huge mistake. Not doing that, would have at least allowed the conflict to be much more contained (and perhaps not even erupted in the first place - bombing Libya, another stupid interventionist mistake, was a green signal to those who decided on armed conflict with Assad). To say "double down on the mistake" by financing and arming on even a bigger scale, and even attacking directly with rockets, would have merely made the situation that much worse, and in fact possibly gotten chemical weapons in ISIS hands. Obama got CW out of Syria - not something that would have happened in the event we shot our wad by rocketing them, and then having zero cooperation from Assad and Russia.
And how exactly would we have "confronted" Putin over Crimea? Maybe some rockets or drones? Idiot. Nothing we did or did not do, was going to change Putin's actions. If anything, I personally remain convinced the West bungled Ukraine by pushing them so nakedly into the Western camp and fuelling Putin's paranoia and sense of offended imperialist entitlement. But then again, I think the West bungled Russia since 1991 too - and even going back further the U.S.S.R with the Cold War - and even back further yet, by intervening in the Russian Civil War of 1918, and earlier yet by... etc.. Non-stop string of idiocy results whenever we feel like we should insert military forces and weaponry in other countries civil wars, usually with zero insight into the local conditions or history. Now this moron proposes we should have done more interventions, since Iraq turned out so well.
The entire analogy is idiotic. He's got it exactly backwards. Foreign policy is more akin to the stock market than to tennis, on account of basic facts: you have a sufficient degree of control in a game of tennis, so there an active strategy pays off - whereas the world is a chaotic place and the element of chance is even greater than in the stock market, therefore you need to base your strategy on controlling risk and contingency planning and exit strategies.
What is missing is the big picture: military force and intervention is only one tool in the toolbox. It is an important tool, but it's like a fireman's ax. You use it in exceptional emergency situations, you don't pull it out to crack nuts, because the chances of someone getting terribly hurt and mayhem are very high - you'll get the nut smashed to smithereens and destroy the table to boot. Leave it alone, for emergencies. Look to the rest of the toolbox. Take all that "defense" (read: imperial military complex) money and invest in your own economy. Spend all that intellectual energy on innovation, education and competitiveness. Your economy will benefit, your population will benefit, the world will benefit - and you'll be far more powerful to boot. Expand that power, the soft power of ideas, economic engagement and ideological persuasion - all far more powerful with an economy that's superior in development, instead of misspent resources in a stupid military complex that saps our strength and invites bleeding adventurism and the resulting chaos.
posted by VikingSword at 12:11 PM on September 7, 2014 [12 favorites]
Russian state media is pushing this NAZI connection. Reputable liberal news organizations such as The Guardian have investigated the claims and debunked them.
posted by humanfont at 12:18 PM on September 7, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 12:18 PM on September 7, 2014 [8 favorites]
War is a Racket ( published 1935)
By Major General Smedley Butler
"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the many.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight.
The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets
restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General.
And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big
Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it.
Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left
the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street.
The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China
I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. "
Even in 1930's it was well known what US intervention was about. Iraq, Ukraine want the money US conflicts brings. Why haven't things advanced to the level where the US uses its immense power for conflict resolution and diplomacy rather than trying to foment rebellion. Ahhh.. No wonder the world is on self destruct.
posted by smudgedlens at 12:25 PM on September 7, 2014 [14 favorites]
Smedley Butler was a boss. I just finished reading his whole book War Is A Racket and find it extremely topical nearly a hundred years later.
posted by KeSetAffinityThread at 12:27 PM on September 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by KeSetAffinityThread at 12:27 PM on September 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
humanfont the UK Telegraph is pretty old school conservative and is the a reputable publication.
Not my normal day to day reading. However their on the spot reporting differs from your analysis and presumptions.
Azov battalion.
posted by adamvasco at 12:33 PM on September 7, 2014
Not my normal day to day reading. However their on the spot reporting differs from your analysis and presumptions.
Azov battalion.
posted by adamvasco at 12:33 PM on September 7, 2014
Take all that "defense" (read: imperial military complex) money and invest in your own economy. Spend all that intellectual energy on innovation, education and competitiveness. Your economy will benefit, your population will benefit, the world will benefit - and you'll be far more powerful to boot. Expand that power, the soft power of ideas, economic engagement and ideological persuasion - all far more powerful with an economy that's superior in development, instead of misspent resources in a stupid military complex....
Repeated for emphasis.
VikingSword*, you make too much damn sense for this world!
*and your name is highly eponisterical in the context
posted by BlueHorse at 12:34 PM on September 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Repeated for emphasis.
VikingSword*, you make too much damn sense for this world!
*and your name is highly eponisterical in the context
posted by BlueHorse at 12:34 PM on September 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Smedley Butler was a boss. I just finished reading his whole book War Is A Racket and find it extremely topical nearly a hundred years later.
It's funny, I heard a lot about Smedley Butler when I took Marine Corps Junior ROTC for a couple years in highschool (it got you a phys ed and history credit for only taking one class). The instructors talked about the guy all the time. I never heard about the Business Plot and War Is a Racket side of Smedley Butler even once in there.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:36 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's funny, I heard a lot about Smedley Butler when I took Marine Corps Junior ROTC for a couple years in highschool (it got you a phys ed and history credit for only taking one class). The instructors talked about the guy all the time. I never heard about the Business Plot and War Is a Racket side of Smedley Butler even once in there.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:36 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
For a more complete and balanced picture of what's going on in the world, turn off your television.
The various wires and antenna plugged into my television do not feed it all news channels or all news programs. It also has the ability to change channels to programs that are not news related or are not all news channels. Furthermore, it also gives me the ability to watch a startling variety of documentaries which present in depth analyses of events in the far and not so far past as well as Moyers. So turning it off doesn't really do this for me. Perhaps people need better wires and antennas feeding their televisions so they can avoid vacuous news channels/programs, or perhaps they need to be educated on how to change the channel and what's available. I understand the sentiment though, since quality reporting is squeezed to the margins in favour of utterly effortless crap (also driven by corporate profit motives).
Take all that "defense" (read: imperial military complex) money and invest in your own economy. Spend all that intellectual energy on innovation, education and competitiveness. Your economy will benefit, your population will benefit, the world will benefit - and you'll be far more powerful to boot. Expand that power, the soft power of ideas, economic engagement and ideological persuasion - all far more powerful with an economy that's superior in development, instead of misspent resources in a stupid military complex....
But... but... that's anti-American and socialist or something! In addition, more people will be stable and relatively happy, crime and misery might decrease, more people might be helpful to each other but a decrease in the billions of dollars in a few pockets is unacceptable!
posted by juiceCake at 12:48 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
The various wires and antenna plugged into my television do not feed it all news channels or all news programs. It also has the ability to change channels to programs that are not news related or are not all news channels. Furthermore, it also gives me the ability to watch a startling variety of documentaries which present in depth analyses of events in the far and not so far past as well as Moyers. So turning it off doesn't really do this for me. Perhaps people need better wires and antennas feeding their televisions so they can avoid vacuous news channels/programs, or perhaps they need to be educated on how to change the channel and what's available. I understand the sentiment though, since quality reporting is squeezed to the margins in favour of utterly effortless crap (also driven by corporate profit motives).
Take all that "defense" (read: imperial military complex) money and invest in your own economy. Spend all that intellectual energy on innovation, education and competitiveness. Your economy will benefit, your population will benefit, the world will benefit - and you'll be far more powerful to boot. Expand that power, the soft power of ideas, economic engagement and ideological persuasion - all far more powerful with an economy that's superior in development, instead of misspent resources in a stupid military complex....
But... but... that's anti-American and socialist or something! In addition, more people will be stable and relatively happy, crime and misery might decrease, more people might be helpful to each other but a decrease in the billions of dollars in a few pockets is unacceptable!
posted by juiceCake at 12:48 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is definitely a "wait, WHAT?" moment for me. I assumed that the Russian claim that the revolutionary Ukranians were "fascists" and "neo-Nazis" was 100% bullshit. Now I have to learn more.
posted by edheil at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2014
posted by edheil at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2014
Like I said in another thread judging a revolution's worth based on how cool their twitter hashtag and instagram pics are seems like a poor way to go about things. And I really think thats how a lot of people in the west were judging it.
posted by Justinian at 1:28 PM on September 7, 2014
posted by Justinian at 1:28 PM on September 7, 2014
There are neo-nazi groups in most places, even America and Russia. There are other fringe political groups as well. Perhaps Ukraine could disarm these fringe groups if Russia would withdraw its armed forces and stop shelling.
posted by humanfont at 2:04 PM on September 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 2:04 PM on September 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
Yes, if only Russia reinvested all of their defense budget into their economy instead of carrying out a (not-so) stealth invasion of a sovereign country to reconstitute a lost empire. That would be nice.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 2:09 PM on September 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Lord Chancellor at 2:09 PM on September 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
"Obama's mistakes insofar as he's made them, was to intervene in Syria at all - financing and arming the rebels, and encouraging our local co-conspirators in SA and the gulf states to do even more, was a huge mistake. Not doing that, would have at least allowed the conflict to be much more contained (and perhaps not even erupted in the first place - bombing Libya, another stupid interventionist mistake, was a green signal to those who decided on armed conflict with Assad)."
I agree that it's a mistake to be involved in Syria, but the US's involvement is a minor factor in the conflict. It's a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. A lot of people don't understand that dynamic in the Middle-East and so they're really misunderstanding what's happening.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:15 PM on September 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
I agree that it's a mistake to be involved in Syria, but the US's involvement is a minor factor in the conflict. It's a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. A lot of people don't understand that dynamic in the Middle-East and so they're really misunderstanding what's happening.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:15 PM on September 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
It took me until today to realize that MSM can mean main-stream-media or Men who have Sex with Men.
I was really, really confused by some posts and FPPs on here recently until now >_>
posted by emptythought at 2:20 PM on September 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
I was really, really confused by some posts and FPPs on here recently until now >_>
posted by emptythought at 2:20 PM on September 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
We are all so misinformed, even the most knowledgeable among us doesn't know anything, just tiny bits and pieces of a larger story. Maybe people 1000 years from now will figure out what we're up to now. Probably not.
posted by ivandnav at 2:21 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by ivandnav at 2:21 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
BTW, thanks everybody for the discussion and additional links in this thread. The initial posts really upset the applecart of my understanding of this situation, and hearing all the different perspectives and additional links here really helped me achieve a better understanding (and more importantly an understanding of how little I really understand it).
posted by edheil at 2:23 PM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by edheil at 2:23 PM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
It took me until today to realize that MSM can mean main-stream-media or Men who have Sex with Men.
I was really, really confused by some posts and FPPs on here recently until now >_>
How do you think Anderson Cooper feels
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:26 PM on September 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
I was really, really confused by some posts and FPPs on here recently until now >_>
How do you think Anderson Cooper feels
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:26 PM on September 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Putin and his minions (see the bio of Alexander Borodoi) shot down Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 and then denied it. They then refused access to the wreckage. After Ukraine had military success against those fighting the government, Russia resupplied them under cover of humanitarian aid (for which Red Cross escort was denied, because it would have blown the cover). When that was insufficient, Russia then sent its troops into Ukraine and denied the invading.
Putin has essentially eliminated political and media access to all opposition. All news outlets are now state run for example. Putin ran around the term limits for President of Russia by becoming its prime minister. He supported the draconian anti-LGBT laws. The is another example of how political speech and protest has been gravely curtailed.
Neocons are not to blame here. Putin is a threat to Europe and Russians who do not support him.
posted by haiku warrior at 2:27 PM on September 7, 2014 [11 favorites]
Putin has essentially eliminated political and media access to all opposition. All news outlets are now state run for example. Putin ran around the term limits for President of Russia by becoming its prime minister. He supported the draconian anti-LGBT laws. The is another example of how political speech and protest has been gravely curtailed.
Neocons are not to blame here. Putin is a threat to Europe and Russians who do not support him.
posted by haiku warrior at 2:27 PM on September 7, 2014 [11 favorites]
Meant to write above "The imprisonment of Pussy Riot is another example of how political speech and protest has been gravely curtailed."
posted by haiku warrior at 3:24 PM on September 7, 2014
posted by haiku warrior at 3:24 PM on September 7, 2014
By deciding not to intervene in Syria, Obama may have allowed its civil war to spread to Iraq.
In other news, up is down.
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 3:28 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
In other news, up is down.
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 3:28 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
The nice thing about this thread and the links in the FPP, is we'll be able to recycle them next year- all we'll need to do is change some of the names.
posted by happyroach at 3:49 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by happyroach at 3:49 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
An obscure private Ukrainian natural gas company has been hiring friends and family of Secretary of State John Kerry and Vice President Joe Biden, while seeking to influence Congress.
"When Vice President Joe Biden’s son, R. Hunter Biden, joined the board of a private Ukrainian oil and natural gas company this spring, he explained his new job as a legal one, disconnected from any effort to influence the Obama Administration."
posted by 445supermag at 4:49 PM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
"When Vice President Joe Biden’s son, R. Hunter Biden, joined the board of a private Ukrainian oil and natural gas company this spring, he explained his new job as a legal one, disconnected from any effort to influence the Obama Administration."
posted by 445supermag at 4:49 PM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
A sobering article from Keith Gessen writing in the LRB 29 August.
And so imagine if for two decades you have been trying to pull your country, bit by bit, into Europe. Imagine that it’s been a bumpy road – everything you accomplish seems to get sabotaged by the political forces from the east. Imagine that finally the contradictions within your country have come to a breaking point. Imagine that all the people who opposed your politics for twenty years – all the most backward, poorest, least successful people in the country – got together in one place, declared an independent republic, and took up arms? What would you do? You could let them go. But then you’d lose all that land and its industrial capacity and also what kind of country just lets chunks of itself fall off? Perhaps you could think of it as an opportunity. Something similar happened when the old Stalinists and nationalists took over the Supreme Soviet in Moscow in 1993. All the enemies of progress in one place, all the losers and has-beens: wouldn’t it be better just to solve the problem once and for all? Wouldn’t it be a better long-term solution just to kill as many as you could and scare the shit out of the rest of them, for ever? This is what I heard from respectable people in Kiev. Not from the nationalists, but from liberals, from professionals and journalists. All the bad people were in one place – why not kill them all?posted by adamvasco at 5:33 PM on September 7, 2014 [5 favorites]
Donetsk has a big new gas field under development. It was expected to come online in 2017 and in a few years would of made Ukraine free from Russian gas imports. So now you know why Putin came in and took it.
posted by humanfont at 5:36 PM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 5:36 PM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm sure there are nationalist and nazi groups involved with the Ukrainian side. They were part of the movement to depose the president too, and they probably wield at least some influence now, but they're not part of the government directly, nor do they have support from the majority of the Ukrainian people.
Putin, on the other hand, is a functional fascist who wields a huge amount of power (although it's not absolute) in one of the biggest and most powerful countries of the world, including a huge military, nuclear weapons, and considerable international economic influence. He's anti-LGBT, anti-free speech, extremely nationalist, and his government has several times been seriously implicated in straight up murdering journalists who oppose them, both in Russia and abroad.
Yeah, it's not hard to tell who's the bad (worst) guy here, honestly.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:54 PM on September 7, 2014 [10 favorites]
Putin, on the other hand, is a functional fascist who wields a huge amount of power (although it's not absolute) in one of the biggest and most powerful countries of the world, including a huge military, nuclear weapons, and considerable international economic influence. He's anti-LGBT, anti-free speech, extremely nationalist, and his government has several times been seriously implicated in straight up murdering journalists who oppose them, both in Russia and abroad.
Yeah, it's not hard to tell who's the bad (worst) guy here, honestly.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:54 PM on September 7, 2014 [10 favorites]
Former Dutch reporter and University of Amsterdam emeritus Professor Karel van Wolferen (bio) had a really good blog post a few days ago about the power of propaganda in the US and European media regarding the Ukrainian crisis.
The Insidious Power of Propaganda (02 Sept 2014)
... he also did an interesting interview with Scott Horton (mp3 podcast link) in August addressing the role of the neocons, the media, and the mysteries surrounded MH-17.
posted by Auden at 8:22 PM on September 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
The Insidious Power of Propaganda (02 Sept 2014)
... he also did an interesting interview with Scott Horton (mp3 podcast link) in August addressing the role of the neocons, the media, and the mysteries surrounded MH-17.
posted by Auden at 8:22 PM on September 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Russian scholar Nikolay Koposov wrote about the deteriorating political climate in Russia and the increasing control of historical thought, in 2011: "The Armored Train of Memory": The Politics of History in Post-Soviet Russia.
He subsequently lost his academic job as a result of his views and advocacy of the free study of history. Same for his wife, and they had to emigrate (they now work in the US).
In an article this month, Back to Yalta? Stephen Cohen and the Ukrainian crisis, he writes about Putin apologists, and the situation in Ukraine.
posted by Kabanos at 9:18 PM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
He subsequently lost his academic job as a result of his views and advocacy of the free study of history. Same for his wife, and they had to emigrate (they now work in the US).
In an article this month, Back to Yalta? Stephen Cohen and the Ukrainian crisis, he writes about Putin apologists, and the situation in Ukraine.
posted by Kabanos at 9:18 PM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yes, Putin is a despot and may very well be motivated by expansionism and empire building. But that doesn't make the current regime in Kiev the "good guys". Ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine have everything to fear from them and many legitimately see Putin's soldiers as their only desperate hope.
posted by rocket88 at 9:38 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by rocket88 at 9:38 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
And non-Ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine have everything to fear from the pro-Russian rebels, since their elected officials have been disappeared, etc. This goes both ways, but I trust Putin a hell of a lot less than pretty much anyone else.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:27 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:27 PM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Everything east of the Dnipr needs to go. The borders of Ukraine did not always look like that, those Eastern bits were tacked on for just this reason.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:24 AM on September 8, 2014
posted by Meatbomb at 2:24 AM on September 8, 2014
Auden, that's a very interesting take on the matter. I certainly agree with his premises that A) the "West" is in general to blame for the Russia Putin inherited and B) for inflaming both this (and past) situations vis a vis NATO expansion. That said, he Godwined himself in an interesting way:
"Garten Ash is back at it again, writing in the Guardian of 1 August 2014, with the contention that 'most western Europeans slept through Putin’s anschluss of Crimea'. ‘Anschluss’? Are we sinking to Hitler metaphors?"
That is a very neat rhetorical side-stepping of the central question of whether or not Putin's ambitions include the Baltics and their restive minority Russian populations. He's saying that all the hand wringing over whether Putin will destabilize the Baltics is is vastly overblown. But I don't think it's overblown at all; I think it's a real concern. The Crimea was metaphorically identical to the Anschluss (and was, in fact, a literal Anschluss for god sakes). The US/"West"/Pax Atlantica may have contributed greatly to the current state of affairs but that does not mean that we are in control of it any longer, not at all.
posted by digitalprimate at 2:57 AM on September 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Garten Ash is back at it again, writing in the Guardian of 1 August 2014, with the contention that 'most western Europeans slept through Putin’s anschluss of Crimea'. ‘Anschluss’? Are we sinking to Hitler metaphors?"
That is a very neat rhetorical side-stepping of the central question of whether or not Putin's ambitions include the Baltics and their restive minority Russian populations. He's saying that all the hand wringing over whether Putin will destabilize the Baltics is is vastly overblown. But I don't think it's overblown at all; I think it's a real concern. The Crimea was metaphorically identical to the Anschluss (and was, in fact, a literal Anschluss for god sakes). The US/"West"/Pax Atlantica may have contributed greatly to the current state of affairs but that does not mean that we are in control of it any longer, not at all.
posted by digitalprimate at 2:57 AM on September 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Thanks for those links, Kabanos; I like Koposov a lot, and I'm going to quote the first paragraph of the second link just because it warms my heart:
posted by languagehat at 6:57 AM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Stephen Cohen, professor emeritus of Russian studies at New York University and Princeton University, is often described as Vladimir Putin's main American apologist. Cohen's support for the Russian president is practically without limits. He claims to be aware of the pitfalls of Putin's regime but excuses them as inevitable in a country like Russia. The radicalism of Cohen's position is exceptional for an American intellectual. Similar ideas, though expressed in a more moderate form, are by no means uncommon in the United States, not to mention Europe where they are particularly widespread among far-right and ultra-left groups, as well as some segments of business.Fuckin' Stephen Cohen, man. I don't understand why he gets as much respect/attention as he does.
posted by languagehat at 6:57 AM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Speaking of Stephen F Cohen, he did a Sept 2 radio interview (mp3, approx 40 min) on the John Batchelor Show discussing the ongoing crisis. For those who lean more towards a John Mearsheimer/Stephen Walt/Robert Parry (Consortium News)/Karel van Wolferen/Billmon/Mark Adomanis views on events (or are curious about how Cohen sees the current state of affairs), it's a good interview.
posted by Auden at 7:50 AM on September 8, 2014
posted by Auden at 7:50 AM on September 8, 2014
Those two Koposov articles are interesting reading for a variety of reasons, but I don't think I made clear in the comment why I linked to them in the context of this discussion:
While Koposov takes down Cohen and other apologists of Putin's behavior, I didn't link to them to suggest that Putin's belligerence somehow automatically justifies any kind of fascist behavior in Ukraine. But the handwaving about fascists taking over the country is overblown.
Koposov does not dispute for a moment the history of Nazi collaboration in Ukraine, including those that participated in the Holocaust. He acknowledges the very troubling presence of far-right groups currently in Ukraine, and their participation in the recent Maidan revolution, but believes their influence and effect is exaggerated by Russia and the media.
posted by Kabanos at 7:55 AM on September 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
While Koposov takes down Cohen and other apologists of Putin's behavior, I didn't link to them to suggest that Putin's belligerence somehow automatically justifies any kind of fascist behavior in Ukraine. But the handwaving about fascists taking over the country is overblown.
Koposov does not dispute for a moment the history of Nazi collaboration in Ukraine, including those that participated in the Holocaust. He acknowledges the very troubling presence of far-right groups currently in Ukraine, and their participation in the recent Maidan revolution, but believes their influence and effect is exaggerated by Russia and the media.
We have to be cautious not to follow those Russian nationalists who see any Ukrainian attempt at self-determination as nationalist (if not fascist) by definition. Movements for national liberation do not have to be nationalist movements, though nationalists normally support them.Koposov talks a lot about Putin's cultural policy, which centers on the "cult of the Great Patriotic War" (WWII). This revived mythology "exploits the old anti-Fascist logic 'who is against Communism is for Fascism,' substituting Russia for Communism in this cowardly formula. It has a strong anti-Western component, but can also justify an alliance with the West, or more exactly with the great powers, ruling out Eastern Europe seen as Russia’s sphere of influence." Much of Russia's rhetoric about a "fascist junta" in Kyiv needs to be seen in this context.
posted by Kabanos at 7:55 AM on September 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
Auden's link had this tidbit which was news to me:
Last week Dutch viewers of a TV news program were informed about something that had been doing the rounds on internet samizdat: the countries participating in the MH17 investigation have signed a nondisclosure agreement.
Apparently the evidence that Putin and his buddies were involved in the worst by far atrocity committed so far here is a big fat zero.
posted by bukvich at 9:02 AM on September 8, 2014
Last week Dutch viewers of a TV news program were informed about something that had been doing the rounds on internet samizdat: the countries participating in the MH17 investigation have signed a nondisclosure agreement.
Apparently the evidence that Putin and his buddies were involved in the worst by far atrocity committed so far here is a big fat zero.
posted by bukvich at 9:02 AM on September 8, 2014
bukvich: "
Apparently the evidence that Putin and his buddies were involved in the worst by far atrocity committed so far here is a big fat zero."
Except for common sense, like the fact that the Ukrainian government, with air traffic control and so on, fighting an enemy that has no air force, has zero need for or desire to shoot down a large aircraft travelling west to east, while the rebels, who have no air traffic control, but are fighting an enemy that has an air force, has all sorts of reasons to do so. Or the deleted posts on the rebels' social media accounts. Or the images of SAM launchers being moved back across the border to Russia.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:34 AM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Apparently the evidence that Putin and his buddies were involved in the worst by far atrocity committed so far here is a big fat zero."
Except for common sense, like the fact that the Ukrainian government, with air traffic control and so on, fighting an enemy that has no air force, has zero need for or desire to shoot down a large aircraft travelling west to east, while the rebels, who have no air traffic control, but are fighting an enemy that has an air force, has all sorts of reasons to do so. Or the deleted posts on the rebels' social media accounts. Or the images of SAM launchers being moved back across the border to Russia.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:34 AM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
It is pretty obvious that the seperatists mistook MH17 for a military transport and shot it down. Radio intercepts from just after the shoot down, tweets by their military leaders, and other evidence is pretty overwhelming. Not to mention the rebels refusal to let investigators in while they were clearly tampering with evidence. There is no mystery here. Just the need to maintain denials from an official perspective to save face and propaganda.
posted by humanfont at 10:53 AM on September 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 10:53 AM on September 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Why then has the story disappeared from the main media propaganda advocating action against Russia? Why the non-disclosure agreement? Where is the website showing transparent analysis of the evidence? This is a commercial airline tracked by multiple aviation agencies. There are gigabytes of data. Where is it?
posted by bukvich at 11:16 AM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by bukvich at 11:16 AM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Some insight from Pavel Gubarev, the "People's Governor of the Donetsk People's Republic", on the right kind of fascists.
posted by Kabanos at 11:34 AM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Kabanos at 11:34 AM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
I just saw this Vice documentary regarding Donetsk. It certainly makes the Western Propaganda less clear and the situation more ambiguous.
I initially sided with the "fascists" claim (like - way before Russia got involved), but then saw that they're not your typical "fascists" in general, and sided with a democratic Europe and started to question how much of the Maidan movement was really fascist. Then Russia got involved and I saw what appeared to be a straight up territorial claim, and expansionist motives (which I still don't necessarily doubt), but...
That clip really shows it is indeed more messy and complex and there's more than just 2 sides to the story and each side has both positive and negative aspects and both noble and not-so-noble causes behind them.
What caught my eye upon seeing the "Swedish Neo-Nazis" going to Ukraine makes me feel like we're watching the boundaries of post-colonial/imperialism start to fade... We're truly entering the Post-WWII phase of Global Civilization.
We have IS(I(S/L)) with their international support from countries both democratic and non-democratic flocking to the middle east. Now we see this (perhaps it's not a vast movement, this "Neo-Nazis in Ukraine" thing - I don't know). But certainly there's a strange mix of events happening in the world that represent various splinterings of a fragile cohesiveness that ruled the globe for 60 years or so.
Sometimes I see shit an really feel apocalyptic about it all, other times it just seems like it's the same ol' same ol'...
I've posted this idea in other forums I think, but it's even stronger seeing this Swedish NeoNazi thing...
We have Democratic/Western States whether full neo-con/neo-liberal or social democracy in nature, who are traditional allies and have enough in common to maintain this alliance, tenuous it may be at times.
Then you have authoritarian states who have a desire to critique western states (and in particular the US as a proxy for all the West - primarily due to its own outsized influence in the world) - when you have people like Russia, China and N. Korea criticizing the US on "human rights" grounds...
So that's the East/West-Authoritarian/Democracy split.
Then you have 3rd world anti-imperialist states that have thrown in their lot with the authoritarian mold (Iran, for example).
Then you have non-state actors like ISIS/Maidan movement/Arab Spring/Occupy Wall Street, some more violent than others, all attempting to address this "New World Order" -- One could make the argument that OWS is really a continuation of the anti-globalization protests that rocked Seattle in 1999 and all that's followed since.
Add in the National Security State which is sort of a layer over all states, and is the aspect of the Western Democracies that the Eastern Authoritarian Regimes both appeal to in support of their own policies and use as an instrument of critique of hypocrisy when they need to attack the West. The revelations about the NSA and its role in targeting: Nation-States, Corporate Interests, Individuals and Ideologically Formed Non-State Entitities add to this appearance of a growing trend.
Militarization of the US Police apparatus in the name of War on Drugs, War on Terror, War on Your Mom...
We witness the dissolving of the democratic nation state as it flails and starts to use more authoritarian means of control. First - a surreptitious mode of control, but slowly revealing itself more and more.
The rise of left-right factions, the growth of popular fascism in Eastern Europe in general, the rise of militant Islam as a shockforce for certain anti-colonial/re-imperialization/conquest of their original native homelands (the caliphate)...
It seems the socialism of Castro and Chavez is slowly fading out, the leftists have run into a dead end.
The tolerant liberal democracies must come face to face with an Islamic Militancy that even al-Qaeda and other hardliners oppose (either strategically or ideologically; though mostly strategically, IIUC). We have the Sunni/Shia factions, where the US is finally taking the side of the Shia after a long period of absolute refusal to co-operate... And we can't forget Syria itself as a sort of nexus of these factions (ISIS, Authoritarian State, Shia/Alawites vs Sunni). You have the Kurds and Kurdistan as an issue at play. Scotland wants to break away from the UK, polls indicating a new slim majority growing every day. What about other breakaway regions? This isn't even touching things like North/South Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia and the conflict there between Islamic radicals and the Christian population - and hardly anyone is discussing the Congo right now, where the Christians have become the vengeful force attacking innocent Muslims; or of course, the Rohingya in Myanmar, or Kashmir and the continued antagonism between Pakistan and India over that province which has recently increased then decreased due to a flood.
Speaking of non-state entities and ebola... You have actors who have allegiances to certain strains of "pure" thought in the Western Democracies - Anti-vaxxers/Homeopathers/Global Warming Denialists who form another faction being torn away by allegiance to the current nation-state via conspiracists like Alex Jones.
In a world falling apart, people are seeking refuge in purity, in a past they knew or desire to believe to be "pure"...
Terence McKenna said:
So it's a huge tangled web, varied interests, competing with each other, and alliances forming between former enemies... Tenuous friendships breaking apart... Everyone keeping a watch, a glaring eye towards "the other" and towards the situation on the ground as it is. Off to GMOFB now...
posted by symbioid at 11:48 AM on September 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
I initially sided with the "fascists" claim (like - way before Russia got involved), but then saw that they're not your typical "fascists" in general, and sided with a democratic Europe and started to question how much of the Maidan movement was really fascist. Then Russia got involved and I saw what appeared to be a straight up territorial claim, and expansionist motives (which I still don't necessarily doubt), but...
That clip really shows it is indeed more messy and complex and there's more than just 2 sides to the story and each side has both positive and negative aspects and both noble and not-so-noble causes behind them.
What caught my eye upon seeing the "Swedish Neo-Nazis" going to Ukraine makes me feel like we're watching the boundaries of post-colonial/imperialism start to fade... We're truly entering the Post-WWII phase of Global Civilization.
We have IS(I(S/L)) with their international support from countries both democratic and non-democratic flocking to the middle east. Now we see this (perhaps it's not a vast movement, this "Neo-Nazis in Ukraine" thing - I don't know). But certainly there's a strange mix of events happening in the world that represent various splinterings of a fragile cohesiveness that ruled the globe for 60 years or so.
Sometimes I see shit an really feel apocalyptic about it all, other times it just seems like it's the same ol' same ol'...
I've posted this idea in other forums I think, but it's even stronger seeing this Swedish NeoNazi thing...
We have Democratic/Western States whether full neo-con/neo-liberal or social democracy in nature, who are traditional allies and have enough in common to maintain this alliance, tenuous it may be at times.
Then you have authoritarian states who have a desire to critique western states (and in particular the US as a proxy for all the West - primarily due to its own outsized influence in the world) - when you have people like Russia, China and N. Korea criticizing the US on "human rights" grounds...
So that's the East/West-Authoritarian/Democracy split.
Then you have 3rd world anti-imperialist states that have thrown in their lot with the authoritarian mold (Iran, for example).
Then you have non-state actors like ISIS/Maidan movement/Arab Spring/Occupy Wall Street, some more violent than others, all attempting to address this "New World Order" -- One could make the argument that OWS is really a continuation of the anti-globalization protests that rocked Seattle in 1999 and all that's followed since.
Add in the National Security State which is sort of a layer over all states, and is the aspect of the Western Democracies that the Eastern Authoritarian Regimes both appeal to in support of their own policies and use as an instrument of critique of hypocrisy when they need to attack the West. The revelations about the NSA and its role in targeting: Nation-States, Corporate Interests, Individuals and Ideologically Formed Non-State Entitities add to this appearance of a growing trend.
Militarization of the US Police apparatus in the name of War on Drugs, War on Terror, War on Your Mom...
We witness the dissolving of the democratic nation state as it flails and starts to use more authoritarian means of control. First - a surreptitious mode of control, but slowly revealing itself more and more.
The rise of left-right factions, the growth of popular fascism in Eastern Europe in general, the rise of militant Islam as a shockforce for certain anti-colonial/re-imperialization/conquest of their original native homelands (the caliphate)...
It seems the socialism of Castro and Chavez is slowly fading out, the leftists have run into a dead end.
The tolerant liberal democracies must come face to face with an Islamic Militancy that even al-Qaeda and other hardliners oppose (either strategically or ideologically; though mostly strategically, IIUC). We have the Sunni/Shia factions, where the US is finally taking the side of the Shia after a long period of absolute refusal to co-operate... And we can't forget Syria itself as a sort of nexus of these factions (ISIS, Authoritarian State, Shia/Alawites vs Sunni). You have the Kurds and Kurdistan as an issue at play. Scotland wants to break away from the UK, polls indicating a new slim majority growing every day. What about other breakaway regions? This isn't even touching things like North/South Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia and the conflict there between Islamic radicals and the Christian population - and hardly anyone is discussing the Congo right now, where the Christians have become the vengeful force attacking innocent Muslims; or of course, the Rohingya in Myanmar, or Kashmir and the continued antagonism between Pakistan and India over that province which has recently increased then decreased due to a flood.
Speaking of non-state entities and ebola... You have actors who have allegiances to certain strains of "pure" thought in the Western Democracies - Anti-vaxxers/Homeopathers/Global Warming Denialists who form another faction being torn away by allegiance to the current nation-state via conspiracists like Alex Jones.
In a world falling apart, people are seeking refuge in purity, in a past they knew or desire to believe to be "pure"...
Terence McKenna said:
History is ending because the dominator culture has led the human species into a blind alley, and as the inevitable chaostrophie approaches, people look for metaphors and answers. Every time a culture gets into trouble it casts itself back into the past looking for the last sane moment it ever knew.And I think this makes a lot of sense, it explains the retreat to fundamentalism and a search for what a society thinks is "The Golden Age". It's not that wars or diseases are new - are even that this is a more dangerous scary time, necessarily, but we sense a foreboding direction to humanity right now, as if we're on the cusp of a radical change that will ultimately disrupt the nice point of stability we've held onto for most of our lives...
So it's a huge tangled web, varied interests, competing with each other, and alliances forming between former enemies... Tenuous friendships breaking apart... Everyone keeping a watch, a glaring eye towards "the other" and towards the situation on the ground as it is. Off to GMOFB now...
posted by symbioid at 11:48 AM on September 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Why are we calling the Ukrainian government fascists but not Putin?
This is what I find remarkable about the various defenses of or half-hearted apologies for Russia that I see these days. I could believe maybe that the Ukranian government is fascist or accommodates fascists—the right-wing nationalism of East Europe/West Eurasia goes deep. But even if that were true, the notion that this justifies or even explains the actions of an autocrat who's done his worst to channel old Soviet dictators (minus even the thin veneer of communist ideals) just baffles me. I chalk it up to a perfect storm of right-wing love/hate relationships with autocrats and wishes for a renewed cold war and left-wing dreams of a still revolutionary Russia. Or maybe Sylvia Plath was right and everywoman one really does adore a Fascist,
posted by octobersurprise at 1:04 PM on September 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
This is what I find remarkable about the various defenses of or half-hearted apologies for Russia that I see these days. I could believe maybe that the Ukranian government is fascist or accommodates fascists—the right-wing nationalism of East Europe/West Eurasia goes deep. But even if that were true, the notion that this justifies or even explains the actions of an autocrat who's done his worst to channel old Soviet dictators (minus even the thin veneer of communist ideals) just baffles me. I chalk it up to a perfect storm of right-wing love/hate relationships with autocrats and wishes for a renewed cold war and left-wing dreams of a still revolutionary Russia. Or maybe Sylvia Plath was right and every
posted by octobersurprise at 1:04 PM on September 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
Auden , thanks for your link to Professor Karel Van Wolferens article. I was blown away by his rational and historical take on the situation, especially:
"Mersheimer lays most of the responsibility for the Ukraine crisis where it belongs: Washington and its European allies. “U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border. Now that the consequences have been laid bare, it would be an even greater mistake to continue this misbegotten policy.”
and: "Of course Putin wants to curtail foreign NGOs. They can do lots of damage by destabilizing his government. Foreign-funded think tanks do not exist for thinking, but for peddling policies in line with the beliefs of the funders... "
The professor does not appear to be defending Putin but laying out the rationale for Putins political stance.
as: " And so the primary wish of Putin, the fundamental reason for his involvement in this crisis at all, that the Ukraine will not become part of NATO, cannot be part of the pictures. The rather obvious and only acceptable condition, and one predictably insisted on by any Russian president who wants to stay in power, is a nonaligned neutral Ukraine. "
I remember Kennedy ordering Kruschev to take the Russian missiles out of Cuba for almost the same reason. The NGO's are waging the covert world war with propaganda instead of missiles? This is a thought provoking thread.
posted by smudgedlens at 1:16 PM on September 8, 2014
"Mersheimer lays most of the responsibility for the Ukraine crisis where it belongs: Washington and its European allies. “U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border. Now that the consequences have been laid bare, it would be an even greater mistake to continue this misbegotten policy.”
and: "Of course Putin wants to curtail foreign NGOs. They can do lots of damage by destabilizing his government. Foreign-funded think tanks do not exist for thinking, but for peddling policies in line with the beliefs of the funders... "
The professor does not appear to be defending Putin but laying out the rationale for Putins political stance.
as: " And so the primary wish of Putin, the fundamental reason for his involvement in this crisis at all, that the Ukraine will not become part of NATO, cannot be part of the pictures. The rather obvious and only acceptable condition, and one predictably insisted on by any Russian president who wants to stay in power, is a nonaligned neutral Ukraine. "
I remember Kennedy ordering Kruschev to take the Russian missiles out of Cuba for almost the same reason. The NGO's are waging the covert world war with propaganda instead of missiles? This is a thought provoking thread.
posted by smudgedlens at 1:16 PM on September 8, 2014
Why then has the story disappeared from the main media propaganda advocating action against Russia? Why the non-disclosure agreement? Where is the website showing transparent analysis of the evidence? This is a commercial airline tracked by multiple aviation agencies. There are gigabytes of data. Where is it?
The media moved on because the mystery has been solved, and in the mean time even more terrifying shit went down in the Ukraine, not to mention the Ebola outbreak, Gaza and the situation in Syria/Iraq. I can't find any evidence outside of really questionable sources pertaining to any non-disclosure agreement related to the MH-17 investigation. The Guardian says that the Dutch Safety Board will issue a preliminary report on Tuesday included in this report will be a significant amount of data.
posted by humanfont at 1:26 PM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
The media moved on because the mystery has been solved, and in the mean time even more terrifying shit went down in the Ukraine, not to mention the Ebola outbreak, Gaza and the situation in Syria/Iraq. I can't find any evidence outside of really questionable sources pertaining to any non-disclosure agreement related to the MH-17 investigation. The Guardian says that the Dutch Safety Board will issue a preliminary report on Tuesday included in this report will be a significant amount of data.
posted by humanfont at 1:26 PM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
John J. Mearsheimer: Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault.
''The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West.''
Meanwhile NATO Hardliners Push for Firmer Stance against Russia.
posted by adamvasco at 3:17 PM on September 8, 2014
''The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West.''
Meanwhile NATO Hardliners Push for Firmer Stance against Russia.
posted by adamvasco at 3:17 PM on September 8, 2014
Mearsheimer's article is a mess. He argues for a real politik approach without considering the US national interests. Oh he's more than happy to accommodate the Russian interests, but ignore the fact that US interests are completely the opposite. Expanding NATO wasn't just some liberal fantasy created by Bill Clinton, it was Condi Rice and George W Bush's policy too. In fact Bush and Rice wanted to put Ukraine and Georgia in NATO but were forced to back off. Allowing Putin to continue to govern Russia without fostering opposition isn't in US national interests.
posted by humanfont at 4:00 PM on September 8, 2014
posted by humanfont at 4:00 PM on September 8, 2014
''The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West.''Ah, the "look what you made me do" defense..
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:37 PM on September 8, 2014 [10 favorites]
Of course Putin wants to curtail foreign NGOs. They can do lots of damage by destabilizing his government.
For a man so paranoid about non-Russian interests within Russian borders, Putin has a very broad idea of Russia's right to insist on its interests beyond Russian borders.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:12 PM on September 8, 2014
For a man so paranoid about non-Russian interests within Russian borders, Putin has a very broad idea of Russia's right to insist on its interests beyond Russian borders.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:12 PM on September 8, 2014
> Why then has the story disappeared from the main media propaganda advocating action against Russia? Why the non-disclosure agreement?
Are you seriously suggesting that... what? Ukraine shot the plane down because reasons? Aliens destroyed the plane? What?
posted by languagehat at 5:24 PM on September 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Are you seriously suggesting that... what? Ukraine shot the plane down because reasons? Aliens destroyed the plane? What?
posted by languagehat at 5:24 PM on September 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think one can equally ask what American Borders are under threat.
Depending on which side of a polititical fence you stand it could be said that American interests are best served by staying at home and not constantly meddling nearly everywhere.
Maybe some of the enormous fortune being stolen to enrich those involved with supplying the military and prison industries could be better used to do something useful like providing a better quality of life for the majority of of your citizens.
As so often your leaders and many of those of Western Europe have betrayed their citizens by embarking on ill thought out ventures without thinking through the consequences.
NATO was formed for a reason in a different age. It is now the playground of career militarists and
craven politicians at the beck and call of lobbyists from the arms trade.
posted by adamvasco at 5:39 PM on September 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Depending on which side of a polititical fence you stand it could be said that American interests are best served by staying at home and not constantly meddling nearly everywhere.
Maybe some of the enormous fortune being stolen to enrich those involved with supplying the military and prison industries could be better used to do something useful like providing a better quality of life for the majority of of your citizens.
As so often your leaders and many of those of Western Europe have betrayed their citizens by embarking on ill thought out ventures without thinking through the consequences.
NATO was formed for a reason in a different age. It is now the playground of career militarists and
craven politicians at the beck and call of lobbyists from the arms trade.
posted by adamvasco at 5:39 PM on September 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
it could be said that American interests are best served by staying at home and not constantly meddling nearly everywhere.
Yes, it could. And some percentage of Americans feel just that way, tho not enough to make it happen, unfortunately. But unless you're justifying Russian aggression either on the same grounds Bush used to invade Iraq or even more explicitly, simply on the grounds that "the US did it too!" then I don't know what any of that has to do with Russia.
Opposition to the military and the arms trade seems like a very strange reason for coming to the defense of someone like Vladimir Putin. But I can understand the emotional appeal of "the enemy of my enemy etc."
the playground of career militarists and craven politicians
Given that this is Russia 2014, it's even harder to understand why anyone would care to defend them.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:25 PM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, it could. And some percentage of Americans feel just that way, tho not enough to make it happen, unfortunately. But unless you're justifying Russian aggression either on the same grounds Bush used to invade Iraq or even more explicitly, simply on the grounds that "the US did it too!" then I don't know what any of that has to do with Russia.
Opposition to the military and the arms trade seems like a very strange reason for coming to the defense of someone like Vladimir Putin. But I can understand the emotional appeal of "the enemy of my enemy etc."
the playground of career militarists and craven politicians
Given that this is Russia 2014, it's even harder to understand why anyone would care to defend them.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:25 PM on September 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
You know who else are career militarists? Generals in Russians engaging in the stealth annexation of a country.
You know whose interests could be best served by Russia staying at hom eand not constantly meddling? Ukraine.
I mean, I understand you're pushing a US anti-imperialism angle, but Russia is going full-on old-school imperialist with the invasion, dismemberment, and annexation of Ukraine.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 7:17 AM on September 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
You know whose interests could be best served by Russia staying at hom eand not constantly meddling? Ukraine.
I mean, I understand you're pushing a US anti-imperialism angle, but Russia is going full-on old-school imperialist with the invasion, dismemberment, and annexation of Ukraine.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 7:17 AM on September 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
The Dutch Safety Board (DSB) has published the preliminary findings of their ongoing investigation into the crash of Malaysia Airlines MH17. Summary from The Interpreter.
posted by Kabanos at 7:34 AM on September 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Kabanos at 7:34 AM on September 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think that if Russian career militarists were fully in charge they would be doing wheelies in their tanks round the Maiden by now.
In no way am supporting or excusing Putin.
What I am trying to indicate is that it is not all as black and white as some of you would love to believe.
Putin seized an opportunity which was foolishly allowed to happen by some who should have known better and forseen the risk.
USA and Europe took part in a deeply undemocratic act and then threw their hands in the air and called foul when Putin moved in
Russia was never going to forsake its Black Sea port in the Crimea.
When you kick the hornets nest you get stung.
There was no good reason for the West not to leave the Ukraine to be unaligned.
There are a whole bunch of crazy breakaway factions in the East who want to succede to Russia. They are undisciplined and probably an embarrasment to Putin eg MH 17
but he will use them and take as much advantage of the situation as possible knowing that the West does not want to get involved in yet another war.
Afterwards he can cull those who don´t come to heel.
Putin doesn´t give a rats arse. He knows that winter is coming. Watch the gas bill.
Conclusion.
US and Europe fucked up.
posted by adamvasco at 8:32 AM on September 9, 2014
In no way am supporting or excusing Putin.
What I am trying to indicate is that it is not all as black and white as some of you would love to believe.
Putin seized an opportunity which was foolishly allowed to happen by some who should have known better and forseen the risk.
USA and Europe took part in a deeply undemocratic act and then threw their hands in the air and called foul when Putin moved in
Russia was never going to forsake its Black Sea port in the Crimea.
When you kick the hornets nest you get stung.
There was no good reason for the West not to leave the Ukraine to be unaligned.
There are a whole bunch of crazy breakaway factions in the East who want to succede to Russia. They are undisciplined and probably an embarrasment to Putin eg MH 17
but he will use them and take as much advantage of the situation as possible knowing that the West does not want to get involved in yet another war.
Afterwards he can cull those who don´t come to heel.
Putin doesn´t give a rats arse. He knows that winter is coming. Watch the gas bill.
Conclusion.
US and Europe fucked up.
posted by adamvasco at 8:32 AM on September 9, 2014
US and Europe fucked up.
Yes, and pretty much anyone with a brain admits that. That we are culpable in creating the current situation does not change the current situation, and our task now is to make sure the current situation stays contained. And it's not entirely certain anyone is up to that task or what the consequences of not being prepared might be.
I very much hope I'm overreacting, but I'd be dishonest if I didn't say the entirety of history would indicate I'm not.
posted by digitalprimate at 10:11 AM on September 9, 2014
Yes, and pretty much anyone with a brain admits that. That we are culpable in creating the current situation does not change the current situation, and our task now is to make sure the current situation stays contained. And it's not entirely certain anyone is up to that task or what the consequences of not being prepared might be.
I very much hope I'm overreacting, but I'd be dishonest if I didn't say the entirety of history would indicate I'm not.
posted by digitalprimate at 10:11 AM on September 9, 2014
In no way am supporting or excusing Putin.
Well, shorn of the platitudes, the Game of Thrones references, the dark hints, and the free verse formatting, what I'm seeing is "Well, 'e's an angry man, that Putin. Why'd you make him so angry? 'E can't help himself when 'e's angry, you know." The bully's usual defense. That and your barely concealed glee at the prospect of the US and Europe "getting theirs."
posted by octobersurprise at 12:17 PM on September 9, 2014 [4 favorites]
Well, shorn of the platitudes, the Game of Thrones references, the dark hints, and the free verse formatting, what I'm seeing is "Well, 'e's an angry man, that Putin. Why'd you make him so angry? 'E can't help himself when 'e's angry, you know." The bully's usual defense. That and your barely concealed glee at the prospect of the US and Europe "getting theirs."
posted by octobersurprise at 12:17 PM on September 9, 2014 [4 favorites]
Ukrainian joke circulating on twitter:
- Did you watch the Apple Presentation?
- Yeah, it was cool.
- What are you going to get: iPhone 6 or iPhone 6 Plus?
- Thermal underwear, Nalbuphine*, and a bullet-proof vest.
*opioid painkiller
(There are a few variations of the actual items in the punchline, but general gist is the same.)
posted by Kabanos at 1:23 PM on September 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
- Did you watch the Apple Presentation?
- Yeah, it was cool.
- What are you going to get: iPhone 6 or iPhone 6 Plus?
- Thermal underwear, Nalbuphine*, and a bullet-proof vest.
*opioid painkiller
(There are a few variations of the actual items in the punchline, but general gist is the same.)
posted by Kabanos at 1:23 PM on September 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
octobersurprise: "In no way am supporting or excusing Putin.
Well, shorn of the platitudes, the Game of Thrones references, the dark hints, and the free verse formatting, what I'm seeing is "Well, 'e's an angry man, that Putin. Why'd you make him so angry? 'E can't help himself when 'e's angry, you know." The bully's usual defense. That and your barely concealed glee at the prospect of the US and Europe "getting theirs.""
Eponysterical? I suppose it might be even more so if this October brings a surprise.
posted by symbioid at 1:33 PM on September 9, 2014
Well, shorn of the platitudes, the Game of Thrones references, the dark hints, and the free verse formatting, what I'm seeing is "Well, 'e's an angry man, that Putin. Why'd you make him so angry? 'E can't help himself when 'e's angry, you know." The bully's usual defense. That and your barely concealed glee at the prospect of the US and Europe "getting theirs.""
Eponysterical? I suppose it might be even more so if this October brings a surprise.
posted by symbioid at 1:33 PM on September 9, 2014
Thank you for adding nothing solid to the discussion octobersurprise and jerkily trying to second guess my motives about posting on this enormous fuck up.
Maybe the new incoming Secretary General can provide the much needed reforms that NATO needs including some transparency and maybe he can also help de-escalate the situation.
From Natowatch in April: NATO, the EU, Ukraine, Russia and Crimea: The “Reset” that was Never “Reset”.
Even Henry fucking Kissenger also writing in April stated
Maybe the new incoming Secretary General can provide the much needed reforms that NATO needs including some transparency and maybe he can also help de-escalate the situation.
From Natowatch in April: NATO, the EU, Ukraine, Russia and Crimea: The “Reset” that was Never “Reset”.
Even Henry fucking Kissenger also writing in April stated
Far too often the Ukrainian issue is posed as a showdown: whether Ukraine joins the East or the West. But if Ukraine is to survive and thrive, it must not be either side’s outpost against the other — it should function as a bridge between them........... A wise U.S. policy toward Ukraine would seek a way for the two parts of the country to cooperate with each other. We should seek reconciliation, not the domination of a faction.posted by adamvasco at 5:05 PM on September 9, 2014
Are you seriously suggesting that... what? Ukraine shot the plane down because reasons? Aliens destroyed the plane? What?
On further review . . .
I did say one thing I could rephrase. I wrote "Apparently the evidence that Putin and his buddies were involved in the worst by far atrocity committed so far here is a big fat zero." If you trust the powers that be, the spies have data which locates the missile firing origin in separatist territory. They cannot show it to us little people because that would divulge intelligence abilities and methods and limits to the spies' enemies. As long as they don't show it, I am going to claim there is reasonable doubt and Putin ain't guilty. Not guilty is not the same as innocent. It only means not guilty.
Guess the public who thinks Saddam Hussein participated in 9/11 needs no further proof than John Kerry's lying plastic face. To me, this is illogical; they don't trust us and we are expected to trust them? This intelligence trump card is dubious. That is their default mode because a bunch of them (not all) hold us in utter contempt.
If you want probabilities, I suppose P (Putin's goons) ~= .8; P (Kiev's stormtroops) ~= .19; P (Aliens) ~< .000001.
posted by bukvich at 8:48 AM on September 10, 2014
On further review . . .
I did say one thing I could rephrase. I wrote "Apparently the evidence that Putin and his buddies were involved in the worst by far atrocity committed so far here is a big fat zero." If you trust the powers that be, the spies have data which locates the missile firing origin in separatist territory. They cannot show it to us little people because that would divulge intelligence abilities and methods and limits to the spies' enemies. As long as they don't show it, I am going to claim there is reasonable doubt and Putin ain't guilty. Not guilty is not the same as innocent. It only means not guilty.
Guess the public who thinks Saddam Hussein participated in 9/11 needs no further proof than John Kerry's lying plastic face. To me, this is illogical; they don't trust us and we are expected to trust them? This intelligence trump card is dubious. That is their default mode because a bunch of them (not all) hold us in utter contempt.
If you want probabilities, I suppose P (Putin's goons) ~= .8; P (Kiev's stormtroops) ~= .19; P (Aliens) ~< .000001.
posted by bukvich at 8:48 AM on September 10, 2014
Are you seriously suggesting that... what? Ukraine shot the plane down because reasons? Aliens destroyed the plane? What?
I think it was probably Russian separatists but if it were Ukraine it wouldn't even be the first time they'd shot down a passenger jet while Metafilter existed.
posted by Justinian at 3:48 PM on September 10, 2014
I think it was probably Russian separatists but if it were Ukraine it wouldn't even be the first time they'd shot down a passenger jet while Metafilter existed.
posted by Justinian at 3:48 PM on September 10, 2014
Hah! Previously on Metafilter!
With bonus added Islamic terrorism paranoia.
posted by Justinian at 3:50 PM on September 10, 2014
With bonus added Islamic terrorism paranoia.
posted by Justinian at 3:50 PM on September 10, 2014
For real fun, try to find a "Russia is justified in keeping Ukraine out of NATO" that doesn't also apply to Latvia and Estonia. Or what about Finland for that matter?. The deepening ties with NATO can't possibly be acceptable for a country whose border is only 100 miles from St. Petersburg...
posted by happyroach at 6:33 PM on September 10, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 6:33 PM on September 10, 2014 [3 favorites]
The Siberian air flight was shot down by accident during a training exercise of the Ukrainian armed forces supported by the Russians in Crimea. Putin also claimed initially it was impossible for his friends in Ukraine to have done this even though the U.S. had evidence.
posted by humanfont at 6:57 PM on September 10, 2014
posted by humanfont at 6:57 PM on September 10, 2014
I think this interview with Poroshenko just after Yanuchovic put the EU association agreement on hold is worth listening to if you're at all interested in the reality of why Ukrainians decided to revolt against Yanuchovic's decision.
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:18 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:18 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
@BalazsJarabik: After 100 days in #Ukraine: 62,9% trust #Poroshenko; #Yatsenuk 53,9; #Hritsenko 48,8; #Lyashko 45,1; #Klitschko 44
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:51 PM on September 16, 2014
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:51 PM on September 16, 2014
PUTIN'S OUTLOOK.
Tom Parfitt interview with Gleb Pavlovsky, conducted in 2012, only published now.
posted by Kabanos at 9:45 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
First revolution. Then war. Now what?
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:03 AM on September 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:03 AM on September 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
That's an excellent piece—thanks for posting it.
posted by languagehat at 9:21 AM on September 18, 2014
posted by languagehat at 9:21 AM on September 18, 2014
Putin considers plan to unplug Russia from the internet 'in an emergency'
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:51 PM on September 19, 2014
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:51 PM on September 19, 2014
Live coverage of anti-war marches in Russia. Wow, the one in Moscow does not look tiny; there must be several thousand people.
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:52 AM on September 21, 2014
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:52 AM on September 21, 2014
Putin warns Ukraine against implementing EU deal - letter
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:32 AM on September 23, 2014
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:32 AM on September 23, 2014
The End of Deterrence? Ukraine is at the mercy of Moscow now, the West is watching helplessly.
With two agreements about the future of eastern Ukraine now in place – one official brokered by the OSCE, one still secret between Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and Putin-aide Vladislav Surkov –, the country’s fate seems sealed. Western-anchored near-neighbors have every right to “feel vulnerable.”
posted by Kabanos at 6:59 PM on September 23, 2014
With two agreements about the future of eastern Ukraine now in place – one official brokered by the OSCE, one still secret between Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and Putin-aide Vladislav Surkov –, the country’s fate seems sealed. Western-anchored near-neighbors have every right to “feel vulnerable.”
posted by Kabanos at 6:59 PM on September 23, 2014
From the Russian perspective: Russia and the U.S.: A Long Confrontation?
Sergey Karaganov frames the whole crisis as a high stakes confrontation between Russia and the U.S., with the stakes being much higher for Russia. A loss in this confrontation would be much more disastrous for Russia.
With a sort-of deal and sort-of ceasefire in place right now, I thought this next bit was revealing:
I have to agree with Karaganov at least that any Russia–US/West settlement seems a good way off. Especially if Karaganov ideas of "compromise" are representative of the Kremlin's thinking:
posted by Kabanos at 8:10 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Sergey Karaganov frames the whole crisis as a high stakes confrontation between Russia and the U.S., with the stakes being much higher for Russia. A loss in this confrontation would be much more disastrous for Russia.
With a sort-of deal and sort-of ceasefire in place right now, I thought this next bit was revealing:
Russia has much fewer levers to inflict direct damage to its rivals. This is why, apart from the semi-symbolic embargo on food imports from the West, Russia’s strategy is objectively changing into trying to bring about the economic and political collapse of Ukraine – possibly in the hope that the West (Europe) will come to its senses and back down.The Westi is misguided if it thinks a potential freezing of the military conflict will cease Russia's assault on Ukraine. The political and economic assaults are only beginning.
I have to agree with Karaganov at least that any Russia–US/West settlement seems a good way off. Especially if Karaganov ideas of "compromise" are representative of the Kremlin's thinking:
In looking for a settlement the best option is a treaty fixing the new status quo in Europe. The territory of what is now Ukraine should be either divided or, preferably, made an area of joint development. The same category includes other countries that create discord between great powers.Oh you pesky little countries that cause discord … !
posted by Kabanos at 8:10 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
As Ukraine's debt tangle unwinds, Russia holds key thread
A selloff on Ukraine's dollar debt is focusing attention on a controversial $3 billion bond held by Russia, ...posted by Golden Eternity at 8:37 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
The so-called bail-bond, taken out late last year by former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich, carries a clause which - given Kiev's steadily worsening finances - may enable the Kremlin to demand immediate repayment.
At best, that could force Western lenders to stump up more cash for Kiev. In the worst - albeit less likely - scenario, so-called cross-default provisions carried by most Eurobonds would force payment on all Ukraine's remaining dollar bonds at once if Moscow is not paid on time.
The Woman Running Supplies to the Ukraine Front Lines
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:14 AM on September 25, 2014
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:14 AM on September 25, 2014
Russia-backed terrorists shell ukrainian troops hiding behind civilians
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:11 AM on October 2, 2014
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:11 AM on October 2, 2014
Luhansk pro-Russian militant ‘republic’ criminalizes homosexuality
"MP's" from the self-proclaimed Luhansk people’s republic [LPR] are reported to have criminalized homosexuality, imposing a prison term from 2 to 5 years.posted by Golden Eternity at 8:20 AM on October 7, 2014
« Older Speaker of the House | The Colors of Motion Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by hippybear at 9:04 AM on September 7, 2014 [2 favorites]