A-moo-ha
September 11, 2014 9:19 AM Subscribe
“If they spot you first, they’ll definitely come for you,” says Orion Enocencio, manager and hunting guide at Ahiu Hawaii, an adventure company on the Big Island in Hawaii. Some of the most dangerous hunting in the entire United States is to be found on a single island in the most isolated island chain in the world. It’s not grizzly bears or mountain lions or even bison: it’s the wild Hawaiian cow.
Interesting, I had no idea. Thanks for this. Nice post.
posted by Daddy-O at 9:49 AM on September 11, 2014
posted by Daddy-O at 9:49 AM on September 11, 2014
Sounds like Troy McClure was right about cows all along.
posted by ckape at 9:51 AM on September 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by ckape at 9:51 AM on September 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
This is frightening. Roaming around here in the English countryside, I am aware of how dangerous cows can be.
We've been charged at more than once. Once you've had an enormous beast with horns running angrily at you, you no longer see cows as peaceful or delightful animals. I still love them but I am more wary of sharing an open field with them.
posted by vacapinta at 9:52 AM on September 11, 2014
We've been charged at more than once. Once you've had an enormous beast with horns running angrily at you, you no longer see cows as peaceful or delightful animals. I still love them but I am more wary of sharing an open field with them.
posted by vacapinta at 9:52 AM on September 11, 2014
I've known about the wild boar and the dangers inherent in hunting them, and I've also known about the wild rock wallabies, but I had no idea there were dangerous feral cattle in the mountains.
Perhaps my mind was set up by the narrative, but in the linked video is does seem like the hunters are quite hesitant to go check on a wounded bull.
posted by CancerMan at 9:53 AM on September 11, 2014
Perhaps my mind was set up by the narrative, but in the linked video is does seem like the hunters are quite hesitant to go check on a wounded bull.
posted by CancerMan at 9:53 AM on September 11, 2014
Excellent article about an invasive species I didn't even suspect, peppered with such facts as, "Scottish botanist David Douglas, for whom the Douglas fir is named, was killed by a wild Hawaiian bull in 1834" and the origin of the ukelele.
Stellar, Chrysostom!
posted by Anitanola at 9:54 AM on September 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
Stellar, Chrysostom!
posted by Anitanola at 9:54 AM on September 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm waiting for the reveal that 'modernfarmer' is an Onion publication.
posted by ennui.bz at 9:56 AM on September 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by ennui.bz at 9:56 AM on September 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
I grew up with Herefords, they are incredibly tough and strong. My grandfather pointed out that the pens used massive planks (2x18) so it'd feel solid. If the cow wanted to go through, no fence would keep it from going, but if it felt solid it'd just move a different direction.
Herefords are generally calm and pleasant, but having one upset would be really really scary.
posted by sammyo at 9:57 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
Herefords are generally calm and pleasant, but having one upset would be really really scary.
posted by sammyo at 9:57 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
I keep wanting to dismiss modern farmer as hipster silliness but they keep putting out consistently good and interesting stuff and I am forced to enjoy it fully and on its own merits, it's very uncomfortable.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:58 AM on September 11, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:58 AM on September 11, 2014 [10 favorites]
in the linked video is does seem like the hunters are quite hesitant to go check on a wounded bull.
If you're going to hunt wild Hawaiian cow, you've got to be tough like the ukelele.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:58 AM on September 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
If you're going to hunt wild Hawaiian cow, you've got to be tough like the ukelele.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:58 AM on September 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
Very interesting article! I was at Yellowstone recently, and stood within a few feet of a large bull bison who got accidentally hit with a face full of diesel from a pickup truck, and got rightfully agitated. I really wanted to be a football field away at the point--I doubt he was 2,000 pounds, and he wasn't angry at me.
(Why isn't the hippo on the African "big 5" list?)
posted by maxwelton at 9:59 AM on September 11, 2014
(Why isn't the hippo on the African "big 5" list?)
posted by maxwelton at 9:59 AM on September 11, 2014
My dad lives up the mountain a ways on the Big Island, and his land is surrounded by trust land that is leased to ranchers. The (docileish) beeves often are wandering around his driveway. He's always been more irritated by the pigs, which eat his bananas and occasionally go for the pineapple.
posted by tftio at 10:03 AM on September 11, 2014
posted by tftio at 10:03 AM on September 11, 2014
Does it do the moo-la?
posted by jonmc at 10:03 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 10:03 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
such facts as ... the origin of the ukelele.
I believe the ukulele came from Portugese sailors and/or cane workers rather than Mexican vaqueros.
(Why isn't the hippo on the African "big 5" list?)
I think that was the 'hunting' list, not the 'dangerous' list.
posted by MtDewd at 10:05 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
I believe the ukulele came from Portugese sailors and/or cane workers rather than Mexican vaqueros.
(Why isn't the hippo on the African "big 5" list?)
I think that was the 'hunting' list, not the 'dangerous' list.
posted by MtDewd at 10:05 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
beeves
I always forget this is a word and every time I see it anew it is still as delightful as the first time.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:08 AM on September 11, 2014 [11 favorites]
I always forget this is a word and every time I see it anew it is still as delightful as the first time.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:08 AM on September 11, 2014 [11 favorites]
If you're going to hunt wild Hawaiian cow, you've got to be tough like the ukelele.
When stalking wild cattle through the riot of flowers in the wilderness of Hawaii, they'll come for you if they hear you - you need to be stealthy. The looming guide, called "Tiny", said in his high sing-song voice, "Tip-toe through the tulips!"
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:12 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
When stalking wild cattle through the riot of flowers in the wilderness of Hawaii, they'll come for you if they hear you - you need to be stealthy. The looming guide, called "Tiny", said in his high sing-song voice, "Tip-toe through the tulips!"
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:12 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yeah. The uke derives from the small guitars of Portuguese-speaking immigrants from Cape Verde or Madeira, the official explanation now goes.
posted by LucretiusJones at 10:16 AM on September 11, 2014
posted by LucretiusJones at 10:16 AM on September 11, 2014
I was at Yellowstone recently, and stood within a few feet of a large bull bison
As I've mentioned before YNP bison (or elk for that matter) are not to be approached by those that wish to keep life, limb, and/or paintjob intact. Glad you're here to write this.
/notyourmom
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:26 AM on September 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
As I've mentioned before YNP bison (or elk for that matter) are not to be approached by those that wish to keep life, limb, and/or paintjob intact. Glad you're here to write this.
/notyourmom
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:26 AM on September 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
Not surprisingly, I approve of this post. That said, even a ton of charging flesh isn't in a fair fight with a high powered rifle; I think the cows should be equipped with light armor, at least.
posted by Mooski at 10:29 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Mooski at 10:29 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
...I am aware of how dangerous cows can be.
...
posted by vacapinta at 9:52 AM on September 11 [1 favorite +] [!]
Epony-something
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 10:39 AM on September 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
...
posted by vacapinta at 9:52 AM on September 11 [1 favorite +] [!]
Epony-something
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 10:39 AM on September 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
in the linked video is does seem like the hunters are quite hesitant to go check on a wounded bull.
I'd be a bit reluctant to check on a wounded bull in heavy brush, too. It's easy to imagine that not ending well.
As has been said, it's an interesting article about a specific invasive species problem. I'm surprised more don't get shot for food -- a grass-fed cow is worth something like $2000 in meat once it's butchered and will feed a family for a year, so you'd think there'd be a lot more hunting pressure.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:40 AM on September 11, 2014
I'd be a bit reluctant to check on a wounded bull in heavy brush, too. It's easy to imagine that not ending well.
As has been said, it's an interesting article about a specific invasive species problem. I'm surprised more don't get shot for food -- a grass-fed cow is worth something like $2000 in meat once it's butchered and will feed a family for a year, so you'd think there'd be a lot more hunting pressure.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:40 AM on September 11, 2014
Bah, these luau-besotted bovines are nothing compared to the dreaded Cape buffalo, known throughout its habitat by hunters as "The Black Death".
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:44 AM on September 11, 2014
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:44 AM on September 11, 2014
I'm surprised more don't get shot for food
I think they did say there was a remoteness issue with that, though, no? wrt the difficulties of carrying out a hillion jillion pounds of meat after hunting.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:44 AM on September 11, 2014
I think they did say there was a remoteness issue with that, though, no? wrt the difficulties of carrying out a hillion jillion pounds of meat after hunting.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:44 AM on September 11, 2014
peperony and chease
posted by poffin boffin at 10:51 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:51 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
GOD DAMN IT JUST CAME IN TO TYPE ALL THAT.
Here lies Andy
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:00 AM on September 11, 2014
Here lies Andy
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:00 AM on September 11, 2014
I am SO disappointed the title of this post is "Don't kid yourself, Jimmy."
posted by entropicamericana at 11:07 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 11:07 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
And all this time I thought bulls were cuddly.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:16 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:16 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
You're absolutely right, golden opportunity missed for a Troy McClure quote.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:25 AM on September 11, 2014
posted by Chrysostom at 11:25 AM on September 11, 2014
I went to the Big Island this summer, and I was profoundly struck by the inherent wildness of the place. I didn't see any wild previously domesticated cattle, but it was pretty commonplace to run across flocks of chickens in public places. I also saw goats wandering around on lava flows, and mongoose filling the niche that squirrels normally would. It seems perfectly fitting to me that the island would also be the place where the most docile beasts we've ever bred go native.
posted by Gilbert at 11:28 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Gilbert at 11:28 AM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
Chris Cosentino should go over and attempt kahlua cow.
posted by rhizome at 11:34 AM on September 11, 2014
posted by rhizome at 11:34 AM on September 11, 2014
Now I have a good idea for a Halloween costume: Hawaiian-Mexican-Vaquero
posted by dov3 at 11:40 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by dov3 at 11:40 AM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Fascinating article. Great post. Hilarious title. Cannot favorite enough! :)
posted by zarq at 12:27 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by zarq at 12:27 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
sammyo: I grew up with Herefords, they are incredibly tough and strong. …[H]aving one upset would be really really scary.
I was at the Minnesota State Fair a couple of weeks ago. Without my kids in tow, we could spend more time in my favorite place, the Dairy Barn. I used to think the cows were gentle souls, but this time I looked more closely than usual at the Herefords and Charolais -- and some of those damn things have necks bigger than my waist!
posted by wenestvedt at 12:30 PM on September 11, 2014
I was at the Minnesota State Fair a couple of weeks ago. Without my kids in tow, we could spend more time in my favorite place, the Dairy Barn. I used to think the cows were gentle souls, but this time I looked more closely than usual at the Herefords and Charolais -- and some of those damn things have necks bigger than my waist!
posted by wenestvedt at 12:30 PM on September 11, 2014
poffin boffin: I think they did say there was a remoteness issue with that, though, no? wrt the difficulties of carrying out a hillion jillion pounds of meat after hunting.
My brother once worked for a guy named Doug. Doug was a "character" )often said through clenched teeth).
Doug wired up an ordinary doorbell button to his wife's car's ignition (and mounted it behind the grille) because he thought she should have one of those remote starters. He also had my brother and one of the guys from the loading dock take a tire off a forklift and use a circular saw to cut new "treads" into it because tires are expensive.
ANNNYway, one time they all go hunting up north, Doug and some of the guys. They are in the woods when someone actually bags a moose. Hallelujah! Doug has driven -- since he has the biggest, muy macho truck around, natch -- and so he walks out to the truck, which has a manly winch in the front, and drags back the winch cable. He hooks it to the moose, walks back to the truck, and turns on the winch.
Time passes.
All along, the winch has been taking up cable, though the dead animal was nowhere in sight. Suddenly there is a rushing, crackling sort of noise, and the moose sails clean out of the woods and SMASHES into the front of said expensive truck, crushing the cab and leaving the vehicle un-drivable.
As it turns out, thrifty Doug bought some sort of steel cable that's awfully strong but kind of stretchy. Evidence along the dead moose's path suggests that its body got hung up on a sapling until the winch pulled the cable harp-tight and the tree was sheered off, leaving the now unencumbered meat mountain freedom to sail through the forest until it found the truck.
I don't think much of the meat was ever recovered, but the story will live forever.
We drove past his company's warehouse two weeks ago and I smiled when this tale sprang to mind. I am glad I could share it.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:47 PM on September 11, 2014 [41 favorites]
My brother once worked for a guy named Doug. Doug was a "character" )often said through clenched teeth).
Doug wired up an ordinary doorbell button to his wife's car's ignition (and mounted it behind the grille) because he thought she should have one of those remote starters. He also had my brother and one of the guys from the loading dock take a tire off a forklift and use a circular saw to cut new "treads" into it because tires are expensive.
ANNNYway, one time they all go hunting up north, Doug and some of the guys. They are in the woods when someone actually bags a moose. Hallelujah! Doug has driven -- since he has the biggest, muy macho truck around, natch -- and so he walks out to the truck, which has a manly winch in the front, and drags back the winch cable. He hooks it to the moose, walks back to the truck, and turns on the winch.
Time passes.
All along, the winch has been taking up cable, though the dead animal was nowhere in sight. Suddenly there is a rushing, crackling sort of noise, and the moose sails clean out of the woods and SMASHES into the front of said expensive truck, crushing the cab and leaving the vehicle un-drivable.
As it turns out, thrifty Doug bought some sort of steel cable that's awfully strong but kind of stretchy. Evidence along the dead moose's path suggests that its body got hung up on a sapling until the winch pulled the cable harp-tight and the tree was sheered off, leaving the now unencumbered meat mountain freedom to sail through the forest until it found the truck.
I don't think much of the meat was ever recovered, but the story will live forever.
We drove past his company's warehouse two weeks ago and I smiled when this tale sprang to mind. I am glad I could share it.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:47 PM on September 11, 2014 [41 favorites]
I love the idea that an animal we raise for food is a latent murder machine once it escapes our control apparatus.
I am not a cattle breeder (IANACB), but I bet traits that make cattle good in the eyes of a breeder have all kinds of subtle behavioral markers that go unnoticed -- if you select for animals that grow fast, you probably select for animals that steal food from their siblings AND for mothers that deny food to weaker offspring. In the end we've bred for big aggressive assholes, just like us.
Also, it's an ironic touch that cattle effectively "agriform" a novel environment, turning lush forest into sparse, ravaged pastures.
posted by serif at 1:16 PM on September 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
I am not a cattle breeder (IANACB), but I bet traits that make cattle good in the eyes of a breeder have all kinds of subtle behavioral markers that go unnoticed -- if you select for animals that grow fast, you probably select for animals that steal food from their siblings AND for mothers that deny food to weaker offspring. In the end we've bred for big aggressive assholes, just like us.
Also, it's an ironic touch that cattle effectively "agriform" a novel environment, turning lush forest into sparse, ravaged pastures.
posted by serif at 1:16 PM on September 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
I love the idea that an animal we raise for food is a latent murder machine once it escapes our control apparatus.
Sure, you say that now.
I'm curious about the whole genetics thing. All this in-breeding hasn't produced soft heads and talent for banjo picking? Is the non-human biosphere that much more robust? Could the Noah story be true???
Seriously, any answers welcome.
posted by IndigoJones at 1:55 PM on September 11, 2014
Sure, you say that now.
I'm curious about the whole genetics thing. All this in-breeding hasn't produced soft heads and talent for banjo picking? Is the non-human biosphere that much more robust? Could the Noah story be true???
Seriously, any answers welcome.
posted by IndigoJones at 1:55 PM on September 11, 2014
Could the Noah story be true???
Seriously, any answers welcome.
Well, ok, if you seriously want an answer to that. No.
posted by The Bellman at 2:05 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Seriously, any answers welcome.
Well, ok, if you seriously want an answer to that. No.
posted by The Bellman at 2:05 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
a grass-fed cow is worth something like $2000 in meat once it's butchered and will feed a family for a year, so you'd think there'd be a lot more hunting pressure.
We're not talking about fat grass fed cows.
I've worked with ranchers on the Big Island who need to clear the wild animals out of their over-grown paddocks. They usually call the local Filipino hunters to clear them out; they don't even keep the meat themselves. We're talking about tough sinewy things that live off of thorny and woody brush. The bulls in the video look a lot stronger and healthier than the ones I've heard described.
addendum: I took a look at the website for Ahui Hawaii. You can have the following experience on their private reserve for just $1500/person:
What could be more dangerous than putting yourself on a train track and waiting for a locomotive to come close to hitting you? A 1,000 plus pound Hawaii Vancouver wild bull! Imagine those ferocious eyes staring you down while he watches every twitch on your body and the only thing between you and him is your weapon and a few yards. Your heart is beating, you start to shake, and you just remembered you need to get a nice clean shot or both you and your guide will be in a lot of danger.
Here at 'Ahiu Hawaii you’ll be sure to experience that 1st hand as one of our experienced guides bring you to these great beasts. So what are you waiting for? Let’s feel the rush together! Hope to see you soon.
posted by kanewai at 2:41 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
We're not talking about fat grass fed cows.
I've worked with ranchers on the Big Island who need to clear the wild animals out of their over-grown paddocks. They usually call the local Filipino hunters to clear them out; they don't even keep the meat themselves. We're talking about tough sinewy things that live off of thorny and woody brush. The bulls in the video look a lot stronger and healthier than the ones I've heard described.
addendum: I took a look at the website for Ahui Hawaii. You can have the following experience on their private reserve for just $1500/person:
What could be more dangerous than putting yourself on a train track and waiting for a locomotive to come close to hitting you? A 1,000 plus pound Hawaii Vancouver wild bull! Imagine those ferocious eyes staring you down while he watches every twitch on your body and the only thing between you and him is your weapon and a few yards. Your heart is beating, you start to shake, and you just remembered you need to get a nice clean shot or both you and your guide will be in a lot of danger.
Here at 'Ahiu Hawaii you’ll be sure to experience that 1st hand as one of our experienced guides bring you to these great beasts. So what are you waiting for? Let’s feel the rush together! Hope to see you soon.
posted by kanewai at 2:41 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
...does seem like the hunters are quite hesitant to go check on a wounded bull.
No need to be delicate by saying "wounded bull", like it's something it did to itself. Our brave hunters fucked up the shot(s) because they are bloodthirsty and trigger-happy, and now the bull is suffering, and they're too cowardly to get in and do anything about it.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:48 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
No need to be delicate by saying "wounded bull", like it's something it did to itself. Our brave hunters fucked up the shot(s) because they are bloodthirsty and trigger-happy, and now the bull is suffering, and they're too cowardly to get in and do anything about it.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:48 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Modern Farmer is on the print-magazine rack at Tractor Supply. They must be selling copies because they keep carrying it, but I've never seen anyone in there who seems to be the Modern Farmer audience.
Mooooooo....
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:54 PM on September 11, 2014
Mooooooo....
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:54 PM on September 11, 2014
I've worked with ranchers on the Big Island who need to clear the wild animals out of their over-grown paddocks. They usually call the local Filipino hunters to clear them out; they don't even keep the meat themselves. We're talking about tough sinewy things that live off of thorny and woody brush. The bulls in the video look a lot stronger and healthier than the ones I've heard described.
Like you say, the animals in the video looked big and healthy, much like the tough cattle you encounter on western rangelands; they didn't look like smaller, feral cattle I've seen photos of. Might the guiding company be providing feed?
posted by Dip Flash at 3:02 PM on September 11, 2014
Like you say, the animals in the video looked big and healthy, much like the tough cattle you encounter on western rangelands; they didn't look like smaller, feral cattle I've seen photos of. Might the guiding company be providing feed?
posted by Dip Flash at 3:02 PM on September 11, 2014
Cows are descended from aurochs, terrifying beasts who lived in herds, faced down lions and wolves, and generally took no crap. Cows were miniaturized (and aggressiveness bred out of them) for domesitication. Wildness lets them revert to type.
posted by hexatron at 3:03 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by hexatron at 3:03 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
There are legends of feral cows that used to roam the swamps where my old house is. Apparently in the beginning of white people settlement there used to be ranches, though instead of plains for them to wander over they let them out to roam the marshy and swampy areas around all the lakes.
They'd round them up but some would be missing. They send these cows would go feral and dangerous and parties would have to go out and hunt them down.
The idea cracked me up.
I thought maybe these stories were exagerations but after reading this I guess they could be true. Though they would have been the Canadian Great Lake Wild Cows.
posted by Jalliah at 3:07 PM on September 11, 2014
At least in the video it looked like they had to do some hiking. Some guys I know showed me photos of their bison "hunt" last year. They were so proud, but it was a bunch of bison standing in an open field; they rested their rifles on fence posts about 50 yards away and it had all the sport of driving down to Farmer McGregor's and shooting Bessy the cow in the pasture.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:10 PM on September 11, 2014
posted by Dip Flash at 3:10 PM on September 11, 2014
No need to be delicate by saying "wounded bull", like it's something it did to itself. Our brave hunters fucked up the shot(s) because they are bloodthirsty and trigger-happy, and now the bull is suffering, and they're too cowardly to get in and do anything about it.
Not really. Hunters - god bless 'em - are human and make mistakes. As far as I know, Rule #1 of hunting is don't walk up to an injured animal and assume that just because you've got a big gun the animal is finished. Finally, it's better to leave the animal alone and let it die in peace - chasing a wounded animal can encourage it to take off through the bush, where if you left it alone it might just settle down and die peacefully. It might be a myth, but I like the idea that native peoples often took that moment to say a prayer or thank Providence for the game they've just got, which is kind of an evolutionary adaptation that encourages them to stay away for a while and let nature take its course.
(I quit hunting 40 years ago because I think it's barbaric, but that doesn't mean there aren't hunters who do their best to be respectful and safe - I don't know if that applies in a private reserve, but it might.)
posted by sneebler at 4:12 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Not really. Hunters - god bless 'em - are human and make mistakes. As far as I know, Rule #1 of hunting is don't walk up to an injured animal and assume that just because you've got a big gun the animal is finished. Finally, it's better to leave the animal alone and let it die in peace - chasing a wounded animal can encourage it to take off through the bush, where if you left it alone it might just settle down and die peacefully. It might be a myth, but I like the idea that native peoples often took that moment to say a prayer or thank Providence for the game they've just got, which is kind of an evolutionary adaptation that encourages them to stay away for a while and let nature take its course.
(I quit hunting 40 years ago because I think it's barbaric, but that doesn't mean there aren't hunters who do their best to be respectful and safe - I don't know if that applies in a private reserve, but it might.)
posted by sneebler at 4:12 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, ok, if you seriously want an answer to that. No.
Well, the Noah question was of course mildly facetious. See, years ago I had been told that once any animal species is below a few hundred, it's toast, which was good yuk fodder for mocking out bible believers. This seems to put paid to the notion that small numbers cannot grow alarmingly.
The soft head and banjo picker thing remains. If cows (and dogs, for that matter) revert to some kind of type, and scary types at that, how is it that human gene pools seem to bring up disease and other grim stuff? (Or do the other grim things disappear naturally among the nature red in tooth and claw species?)
Let's reset my serious question at that.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:19 PM on September 11, 2014
Well, the Noah question was of course mildly facetious. See, years ago I had been told that once any animal species is below a few hundred, it's toast, which was good yuk fodder for mocking out bible believers. This seems to put paid to the notion that small numbers cannot grow alarmingly.
The soft head and banjo picker thing remains. If cows (and dogs, for that matter) revert to some kind of type, and scary types at that, how is it that human gene pools seem to bring up disease and other grim stuff? (Or do the other grim things disappear naturally among the nature red in tooth and claw species?)
Let's reset my serious question at that.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:19 PM on September 11, 2014
There must be a lower limit to population density that means that random interaction and breeding become so infrequent that the species dies off. In practice I'm not sure how often this happens, but there are lots of examples of species that have experienced a population bottleneck at some time.
There are specific characteristics that make some animals more suitable for domestication than others. This wiki article is a nice summary of what goes on. In short, scary aggressive bulls are good characteristics needed for survival on the plains, but can also make them good candidates for domestication, like males dominant over females, and short flight distance from humans. How actually scary they are is a matter of perspective. I'm certainly scared of them, but I'm old and lame so I'll probably be eaten by something sooner or later anyway - you young people would probably find it exhilarating to be chased by a bull.
The effects on humans of small genetic pools and disease seems like it's the result of being shielded from evolution for several generations - which is also what you'd expect to see in domestic animals. This conserves favourable characteristics and also recessive genes that cause various problems. When a small population is exposed to stronger selective pressures, the recessive genes that are expressed are more likely to prove maladaptive. We tend to see those things as grim, but that's evolution at work. And it's amazing how fast it can happen - my dad was a social worker in central Alberta, and he said he'd visited a town with a high rate of congenital deafness, which people said was due to "marrying within the family" (I don't know if that was literally the case). But really all that means is that this community was isolated enough and small enough (~30 people) for that particular trait to become slightly more common, which only took two or three generations. (Hearsay evidence and who knows - maybe they brought that family trait with them from their previous home.)
posted by sneebler at 5:32 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
There are specific characteristics that make some animals more suitable for domestication than others. This wiki article is a nice summary of what goes on. In short, scary aggressive bulls are good characteristics needed for survival on the plains, but can also make them good candidates for domestication, like males dominant over females, and short flight distance from humans. How actually scary they are is a matter of perspective. I'm certainly scared of them, but I'm old and lame so I'll probably be eaten by something sooner or later anyway - you young people would probably find it exhilarating to be chased by a bull.
The effects on humans of small genetic pools and disease seems like it's the result of being shielded from evolution for several generations - which is also what you'd expect to see in domestic animals. This conserves favourable characteristics and also recessive genes that cause various problems. When a small population is exposed to stronger selective pressures, the recessive genes that are expressed are more likely to prove maladaptive. We tend to see those things as grim, but that's evolution at work. And it's amazing how fast it can happen - my dad was a social worker in central Alberta, and he said he'd visited a town with a high rate of congenital deafness, which people said was due to "marrying within the family" (I don't know if that was literally the case). But really all that means is that this community was isolated enough and small enough (~30 people) for that particular trait to become slightly more common, which only took two or three generations. (Hearsay evidence and who knows - maybe they brought that family trait with them from their previous home.)
posted by sneebler at 5:32 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
« Older RIP, Jaws | MetaFilter Clickbait? Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Atreides at 9:45 AM on September 11, 2014