What separates this from an academic pursuit, is the fighting.
September 16, 2014 3:06 PM Subscribe
"We have all these 600 year old books on how to fight, so we thought wouldn't it be cool if we did this?" The New York Times video team visits the world of German longsword fighting, a variety of Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA).
A lot of those "manuals" bring back an anthropology of martial arts course I took in undergrad. My professor was probably there....
posted by resurrexit at 3:18 PM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by resurrexit at 3:18 PM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
Is this an ad for that Stephenson game?
Seriously, though. I've never been able to watch a video hosted by the NYT.
posted by clvrmnky at 3:27 PM on September 16, 2014
Seriously, though. I've never been able to watch a video hosted by the NYT.
posted by clvrmnky at 3:27 PM on September 16, 2014
German longsword fighting, a variety of Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA)
Because you can't spell "hematoma" without HEMA.
posted by mosk at 3:37 PM on September 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
Because you can't spell "hematoma" without HEMA.
posted by mosk at 3:37 PM on September 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
I once read an old instruction manual on dueling technique. It was constantly flipping back and fourth between emphasizing humility and lack of presumption -
I-do-not-presume-that-my-humble-words-merit-the-attention-of-the-illustrious-reader...
and then not noticing the record-scratch of this attitude not being applied to people in general and constantly being all -
for-we-all-know-that-the-Spaniards-are-little-better-than-savages...
I think that might have been my wake-up moment when I realized that no-matter how progressive we think we're being, our bigotry is going to disgust the people of the future. (And likewise, if presented with their tolerance, we would be disgusted by it).
posted by anonymisc at 3:47 PM on September 16, 2014
I-do-not-presume-that-my-humble-words-merit-the-attention-of-the-illustrious-reader...
and then not noticing the record-scratch of this attitude not being applied to people in general and constantly being all -
for-we-all-know-that-the-Spaniards-are-little-better-than-savages...
I think that might have been my wake-up moment when I realized that no-matter how progressive we think we're being, our bigotry is going to disgust the people of the future. (And likewise, if presented with their tolerance, we would be disgusted by it).
posted by anonymisc at 3:47 PM on September 16, 2014
FOUL: Athlete is using an illegal enchantment (+1, Swift) and is disqualified.
posted by JHarris at 4:07 PM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 4:07 PM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
I like how they emphasized the modern protective equipment rather than historical costume (that's a big deal for some HEMA people--like Jake Norwood in the video) but still couldn't help but include the guy in the poofy pants. HEMA is at war with itself over whether aesthetically the players should look like they're participating in a modern sport, or like they stepped out of the middle ages/renaissance. To my eye both sides are ridiculous, but the historical clothes people at least know they're ridiculous. (Disclaimer: I do HEMA, and I am fully aware that I look ridiculous no matter what I wear).
posted by agentofselection at 4:20 PM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by agentofselection at 4:20 PM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I dunno it was clever PR or happenstance, but I thought it was interesting that three of the six interview subjects were slim young jockish women.
posted by Diablevert at 4:22 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Diablevert at 4:22 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wasn't at Longpoint, but based on my experience of HEMA events, likelihood of that occurring by chance is negligible.
posted by agentofselection at 4:25 PM on September 16, 2014
posted by agentofselection at 4:25 PM on September 16, 2014
Oh yeah, if you can't/don't want to watch the video, there's a text article too.
posted by agentofselection at 4:31 PM on September 16, 2014
posted by agentofselection at 4:31 PM on September 16, 2014
Jake Norwood is a standup guy, but my (limited) experience of the HEMA community is that they're in general way more concerned about the sporting aspect (tournaments, point scoring, etc) than the martial aspect, and their technique often suffers for it (yes, I also do this stuff; no, I don't call it HEMA). Also, those black plastic gloves they love are no substitute for a good pair of steel gauntlets.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 4:43 PM on September 16, 2014
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 4:43 PM on September 16, 2014
Those black plastic gloves are the worst. Poor control, poor protection. They're light and relatively cheap, but that's all I can say for them.
And yeah, I generally hate tournament fighting. I have an acquaintance who casually discusses recruiting a bunch of retired olympic fencers to come dominate the HEMA tournament scene, and prove once and for all that winning tournaments != historical technique.
posted by agentofselection at 4:50 PM on September 16, 2014
And yeah, I generally hate tournament fighting. I have an acquaintance who casually discusses recruiting a bunch of retired olympic fencers to come dominate the HEMA tournament scene, and prove once and for all that winning tournaments != historical technique.
posted by agentofselection at 4:50 PM on September 16, 2014
Oh man, that looks like fun.
posted by homunculus at 6:37 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 6:37 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's all fun and games until someone loses an arm.
posted by Pudhoho at 8:40 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Pudhoho at 8:40 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I dunno it was clever PR or happenstance, but I thought it was interesting that three of the six interview subjects were slim young jockish women.
I mean, of the martial artists I know, most are slim, young and jockish, and around half are women…
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:55 PM on September 16, 2014
I mean, of the martial artists I know, most are slim, young and jockish, and around half are women…
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:55 PM on September 16, 2014
(Though if this group does skew more heavily male, then kudos to the NYT for finding a gender-balanced group of people to interview.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:02 PM on September 16, 2014
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:02 PM on September 16, 2014
If these people don't have Queen blasting on the stereo while they fight then they are dead inside.
posted by um at 10:42 PM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by um at 10:42 PM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
A lot of these medieval swordfighitng manuals were written in code, so just translating the Latin doesn't give all the answers.
The reason for obfuscation was to keep other schools from learning the trade secrets (of killin a guy). HEMA's big contribution to this scholarship is using practical experience to read between the lines and discover the real techniques.
Also, you might find this fun.
posted by clarknova at 11:53 PM on September 16, 2014
The reason for obfuscation was to keep other schools from learning the trade secrets (of killin a guy). HEMA's big contribution to this scholarship is using practical experience to read between the lines and discover the real techniques.
Also, you might find this fun.
posted by clarknova at 11:53 PM on September 16, 2014
It's all fun and games until someone loses an arm.
'Tis but a flesh wound.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:43 AM on September 17, 2014
'Tis but a flesh wound.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:43 AM on September 17, 2014
This is pretty cool, really. Can I share a longsword story?
Thirty years ago my friend Marc, terminally ill with cancer, had during his illness put together a comprehensive collection of early Highland weaponry and artifacts, including dirks and small arms as well as a few exquisite bronze-age brooches.
The treasure of the collection, however, was the Claymore his best friend Richard found in an obscure shop in Scotland stuck through a door. The whole thing--sword, door and all--had been shipped to his home, where he extracted the thing and had it authenticated as a genuine two-handed Claymore.
On a snowy New Year's Eve which all knew would be Marc's last, he was well enough for a few shots of Laphroaig, after which he announced that the three of us needed to "try out" the Claymore. Richard, Marc and I stumbled out into the night and took turns swinging that thing around over our heads. We had a pierced-tin lantern which cast crazy shafts of light, and it was snowing, and we were laughing and shouting, and the sword was alive.
Marc is dead now, and the wondrous things he collected, which Richard and I once handled as we sat near him on animal skins, are in the National Infantry Museum in Fort Benning, Georgia. I do not want to see them under glass.
posted by kinnakeet at 4:19 AM on September 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
Thirty years ago my friend Marc, terminally ill with cancer, had during his illness put together a comprehensive collection of early Highland weaponry and artifacts, including dirks and small arms as well as a few exquisite bronze-age brooches.
The treasure of the collection, however, was the Claymore his best friend Richard found in an obscure shop in Scotland stuck through a door. The whole thing--sword, door and all--had been shipped to his home, where he extracted the thing and had it authenticated as a genuine two-handed Claymore.
On a snowy New Year's Eve which all knew would be Marc's last, he was well enough for a few shots of Laphroaig, after which he announced that the three of us needed to "try out" the Claymore. Richard, Marc and I stumbled out into the night and took turns swinging that thing around over our heads. We had a pierced-tin lantern which cast crazy shafts of light, and it was snowing, and we were laughing and shouting, and the sword was alive.
Marc is dead now, and the wondrous things he collected, which Richard and I once handled as we sat near him on animal skins, are in the National Infantry Museum in Fort Benning, Georgia. I do not want to see them under glass.
posted by kinnakeet at 4:19 AM on September 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
A lot of these medieval swordfighitng manuals were written in code, so just translating the Latin doesn't give all the answers.
This is only partially true. Lichtenauer wrote in extremely cryptic (German) verse, but those who came after him (Ringeck, Von Danzig, etc.) were much more explicit. Likewise, a couple of the extant manuscripts of Fiore are less than forthcoming in their rhymed Italian couplets, but others (like the Getty) describe techniques in enough detail that it's possible to reconstruct them with a good degree of confidence. That's what we do! Of the manuscripts I am personally aware of, most are in Italian or German (though there is some Renaissance-era Spanish, too), I.33 being the only Latin one (and that manuscript did not spawn a tradition but stands alone and fairly esoteric).
agentofselection, you should come to the next WMAW. We'd love to have you!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 5:41 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is only partially true. Lichtenauer wrote in extremely cryptic (German) verse, but those who came after him (Ringeck, Von Danzig, etc.) were much more explicit. Likewise, a couple of the extant manuscripts of Fiore are less than forthcoming in their rhymed Italian couplets, but others (like the Getty) describe techniques in enough detail that it's possible to reconstruct them with a good degree of confidence. That's what we do! Of the manuscripts I am personally aware of, most are in Italian or German (though there is some Renaissance-era Spanish, too), I.33 being the only Latin one (and that manuscript did not spawn a tradition but stands alone and fairly esoteric).
agentofselection, you should come to the next WMAW. We'd love to have you!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 5:41 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is pretty dang cool, but I'm confused about how like or unlike this is to modern fencing.
posted by rebent at 6:00 AM on September 17, 2014
posted by rebent at 6:00 AM on September 17, 2014
I'm confused about how like or unlike this is to modern fencing.
The most basic thing is that modern olympic fencing takes place on a strip, so you're only able to attack your opponent from the front, and only hits in specific places are counted. In historic swordfighting (HEMA or other) it's much more "in the round" and you have a wider variety of targets that "count". And, also, the swords are much different.
posted by anastasiav at 7:28 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
The most basic thing is that modern olympic fencing takes place on a strip, so you're only able to attack your opponent from the front, and only hits in specific places are counted. In historic swordfighting (HEMA or other) it's much more "in the round" and you have a wider variety of targets that "count". And, also, the swords are much different.
posted by anastasiav at 7:28 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Tournament fighting is sadly similar, however, in that it seems to encourage poor form. I will explain further.
Fencing is the "art of defense". All of the old writers who bother to have an opinion on the subject say that you should attend to your own defense first and wound your enemy second if the occasion arises. Tournament fencing (and to my very limited knowledge sport fencing) does not emphasize this aspect, instead introducing the concept of the afterblow (and I don't think sport fencing has this...they just don't care if you get hit second?), where if you get hit after hitting, it's a point for your opponent, BUT often a lesser amount than you get for, say, hitting them in the head. So, if the opportunity arises to hit your opponent in a juicy place in an unsafe way (without closing the line of attack or being in such a place that you cannot be hit in return) the point structure incentivizes you to take it regardless of the afterblow and what would be its real world consequences if you were fencing with sharps.
Did I say that in an understandable way?
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 7:44 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Fencing is the "art of defense". All of the old writers who bother to have an opinion on the subject say that you should attend to your own defense first and wound your enemy second if the occasion arises. Tournament fencing (and to my very limited knowledge sport fencing) does not emphasize this aspect, instead introducing the concept of the afterblow (and I don't think sport fencing has this...they just don't care if you get hit second?), where if you get hit after hitting, it's a point for your opponent, BUT often a lesser amount than you get for, say, hitting them in the head. So, if the opportunity arises to hit your opponent in a juicy place in an unsafe way (without closing the line of attack or being in such a place that you cannot be hit in return) the point structure incentivizes you to take it regardless of the afterblow and what would be its real world consequences if you were fencing with sharps.
Did I say that in an understandable way?
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 7:44 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Steely-eyed Missile Man, I would love to go to WMAW, and if budget and time will allow I will definitely go next time. I hang out with some of that crowd, and I imagine you and I have some friends in common.
And I agree, it is very difficult to devise a set of tournament rules which don't reward taking unacceptable risks in order to hit your opponent. This is problematic because sword fighting is about defending yourself first and foremost, and killing people secondarily (The origin of the word "fencing" is "defencing"). Priority of hits (if the other guy attacks you you're not allowed to attack back until you've dealt with his threat) and destructive doubles (if you both get hit you both lose) are two ways to try and encourage defensiveness in tournaments but they both have issues and neither can truly bring out the motivation that an angry opponent with a sharp sword would.
posted by agentofselection at 10:23 AM on September 17, 2014
And I agree, it is very difficult to devise a set of tournament rules which don't reward taking unacceptable risks in order to hit your opponent. This is problematic because sword fighting is about defending yourself first and foremost, and killing people secondarily (The origin of the word "fencing" is "defencing"). Priority of hits (if the other guy attacks you you're not allowed to attack back until you've dealt with his threat) and destructive doubles (if you both get hit you both lose) are two ways to try and encourage defensiveness in tournaments but they both have issues and neither can truly bring out the motivation that an angry opponent with a sharp sword would.
posted by agentofselection at 10:23 AM on September 17, 2014
One other comment about differences between this and modern fencing: HEMA tournaments typically allow much more body contact and grappling than would be allowed in modern fencing.
posted by agentofselection at 10:44 AM on September 17, 2014
posted by agentofselection at 10:44 AM on September 17, 2014
Oh yes! How could I forget grappling. Beloved by Italians, feared by Germans (joking...mostly).
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:03 AM on September 17, 2014
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:03 AM on September 17, 2014
Fencing is the "art of defense". All of the old writers who bother to have an opinion on the subject say that you should attend to your own defense first and wound your enemy second if the occasion arises. Tournament fencing (and to my very limited knowledge sport fencing) does not emphasize this aspect,
Sport fencing heavily emphasizes this aspect. For example, the right-of-way system gives priority to your opponent's attack over yours if they attended to their defense.
There are three disciplines (foil, epee, sabre), and not all of them heavily enforce defense-first, but the emphasis is strongest in foil, which is the training weapon that everyone must learn first (to internalize these good habits), before they can start learning any of the others. In foil, responding to an attack with a counter-attack instead of defense-first goes against pretty much everything you'll be taught. (You're allowed to do it, but it's very risky because the rules are designed to penalize it. Also, you're trained to not do it. Hitting the other guy first doesn't mean you'll get a point if you improperly failed to attend to your own defense first, and it leaves you vulnerable to their attack.)
posted by anonymisc at 2:10 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Sport fencing heavily emphasizes this aspect. For example, the right-of-way system gives priority to your opponent's attack over yours if they attended to their defense.
There are three disciplines (foil, epee, sabre), and not all of them heavily enforce defense-first, but the emphasis is strongest in foil, which is the training weapon that everyone must learn first (to internalize these good habits), before they can start learning any of the others. In foil, responding to an attack with a counter-attack instead of defense-first goes against pretty much everything you'll be taught. (You're allowed to do it, but it's very risky because the rules are designed to penalize it. Also, you're trained to not do it. Hitting the other guy first doesn't mean you'll get a point if you improperly failed to attend to your own defense first, and it leaves you vulnerable to their attack.)
posted by anonymisc at 2:10 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
anonymisc, in principle I agree with you, but in practice I think sport fencing has moved a long way from the priority system actually representing "safety". The current methods of interpreting who has priority are quite arcane and often seem to me to have little to do with safety. Also, the system includes artifacts, such as the fact that you can score while being hit as long as you have priority. And then there's epee, which has no priority of hits. (Olympic-style) fencing is a great sport, but I think it's pretty tough to argue that it represents a martial art or self-defense system.
posted by agentofselection at 2:32 PM on September 17, 2014
posted by agentofselection at 2:32 PM on September 17, 2014
I don't mean this as an attack - I don't really disagree with you, however I found the final sentence strange and thought I'd share the reaction it prompts:
I have limited interest in martial arts, but to me the idea that some people want the term to exclude some of the sports but not some of the other sports (even though similarly/more distanced/evolved from a more martial past), strikes me much the same as people who claim that this or that thing Is Not Art. Or people that think high-level competitive dancers aren't athletes. Or disagreement between basically-identical branches of Christianity over the other branch not being Christians. It's kind of eye-rolling. It might be tough to argue that dancing is a martial art (or maybe not... there's Capoeira), but to suggest that sabre isn't, that strikes me as the kind of pet distinction pushed by the kind of person you don't really want to end up stuck talking about it at a party because they've hung too much of their personal identity on it and their perspective isn't what you'd want to use. I'm sure that it matters greatly to plenty of people which sports are included and which are not, but they will argue about which ones. It's not meaningful.
posted by anonymisc at 3:27 PM on September 17, 2014
I have limited interest in martial arts, but to me the idea that some people want the term to exclude some of the sports but not some of the other sports (even though similarly/more distanced/evolved from a more martial past), strikes me much the same as people who claim that this or that thing Is Not Art. Or people that think high-level competitive dancers aren't athletes. Or disagreement between basically-identical branches of Christianity over the other branch not being Christians. It's kind of eye-rolling. It might be tough to argue that dancing is a martial art (or maybe not... there's Capoeira), but to suggest that sabre isn't, that strikes me as the kind of pet distinction pushed by the kind of person you don't really want to end up stuck talking about it at a party because they've hung too much of their personal identity on it and their perspective isn't what you'd want to use. I'm sure that it matters greatly to plenty of people which sports are included and which are not, but they will argue about which ones. It's not meaningful.
posted by anonymisc at 3:27 PM on September 17, 2014
It's not meaningful.
Meaning is very much in the eye of the beholder.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 3:39 PM on September 17, 2014
Meaning is very much in the eye of the beholder.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 3:39 PM on September 17, 2014
I hear you, anonymisc, and I think we're just working from different definitions. I'm not trying to denigrate (sport) fencing or to be exclusive. To be clear, I don't think the tournament in the OP is representative of martial art, either. I think it is martial sport. I participate in tournaments like the one in the OP, and I do a little sport fencing. I think they are great fun, but I have a strict definition of "martial art" and I don't think they meet it. That may still make me a bore at parties, but it's hardly unique in that regard.
posted by agentofselection at 3:55 PM on September 17, 2014
posted by agentofselection at 3:55 PM on September 17, 2014
Wichita Falls Homeowner Recounts Stabbing Intruder with Spear
posted by homunculus at 12:24 PM on September 19, 2014
posted by homunculus at 12:24 PM on September 19, 2014
From your link, Homunculus, "I am a Christian man and I don't want to take life, however I want to make sure that he understands that his life was mine to take. I let him have it."
I shudder whenever I read about people actually using this stuff in real life. He sounded waaay too excited about it. I really hope that my hobby never has any practical application (other than general fitness, balance, etc.). I have dropped people from my study group in the past because when we switched from sword to dagger they started talking about how this was finally something they could apply. I am a firm believer that the practical application of this stuff needs to stay in history. Today it is just a hobby. If you want to defend yourself, take modern self-defense classes. This is important to me because these arts developed in a cultural context, and to remove them from that context is to make them inappropriate.
posted by agentofselection at 2:47 PM on September 19, 2014
I shudder whenever I read about people actually using this stuff in real life. He sounded waaay too excited about it. I really hope that my hobby never has any practical application (other than general fitness, balance, etc.). I have dropped people from my study group in the past because when we switched from sword to dagger they started talking about how this was finally something they could apply. I am a firm believer that the practical application of this stuff needs to stay in history. Today it is just a hobby. If you want to defend yourself, take modern self-defense classes. This is important to me because these arts developed in a cultural context, and to remove them from that context is to make them inappropriate.
posted by agentofselection at 2:47 PM on September 19, 2014
I shudder whenever I read about people actually using this stuff in real life. He sounded waaay too excited about it.
Yeah. Here's an interview with the guy. I don't think I'd want to be in a study group with him.
posted by homunculus at 5:20 PM on September 19, 2014
Yeah. Here's an interview with the guy. I don't think I'd want to be in a study group with him.
posted by homunculus at 5:20 PM on September 19, 2014
That article is a gigantic tease!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:16 AM on October 14, 2014
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:16 AM on October 14, 2014
« Older At Home With Sir Ken Robinson. | Pretty in ink Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Cool post.
posted by spitbull at 3:09 PM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]