Da da da Dead
October 14, 2014 1:38 AM Subscribe
Beethoven's bad influence - Alex Ross ponders if veneration of him stifled his successors.
I think this is true in many areas of life, at many times. I'm looking at you, boomers.
posted by kersplunk at 2:36 AM on October 14, 2014
posted by kersplunk at 2:36 AM on October 14, 2014
... to the Second World War, when the opening notes of the Fifth were linked to the short-short-short-long Morse code for “V,” as in “victory”...
The ultra-famous four-note opening rhythmic motif of the fifth symphony also reappears, this time recast as euphoria instead of foreboding, as the first four notes of 'It Won't Be Long' on the Beatles' second LP.
'It Won't Be Long' was track 1, side 1 on 'With the Beatles', while track 1, side 2 was 'Roll Over Beethoven'. An early example of wit in LP track sequencing...?
posted by colie at 2:52 AM on October 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
The ultra-famous four-note opening rhythmic motif of the fifth symphony also reappears, this time recast as euphoria instead of foreboding, as the first four notes of 'It Won't Be Long' on the Beatles' second LP.
'It Won't Be Long' was track 1, side 1 on 'With the Beatles', while track 1, side 2 was 'Roll Over Beethoven'. An early example of wit in LP track sequencing...?
posted by colie at 2:52 AM on October 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
Yes, but what is Beethoven doing today?
Decomposing.
posted by fairmettle at 3:22 AM on October 14, 2014 [8 favorites]
Decomposing.
posted by fairmettle at 3:22 AM on October 14, 2014 [8 favorites]
I don't think it's Beethoven's fault.
The point is that Western culture since the Renaissance demands innovation. The West has been very good at solving the technical problems facing each art form and bringing them to a kind of perfection, but it is incapable of settling down and exploiting the results for a few hundred years, it has to move on. You have to invent new schools and new theories. At some point the process is forced to move on from the real problems to relatively arid intellectual innovations which are decreasingly popular.
Arguably JS Bach had already taken classical music to technical perfection, but there were still rich rewards to be reaped in a Romantic revolution, and Beethoven was the man to deliver one, hitting the crest of the wave.
So it's not that later music was stunted by copying Beethoven, it's more that our culture obliged composers to go on thinking up new kinds of music, with gradually diminishing rewards.
posted by Segundus at 3:58 AM on October 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
The point is that Western culture since the Renaissance demands innovation. The West has been very good at solving the technical problems facing each art form and bringing them to a kind of perfection, but it is incapable of settling down and exploiting the results for a few hundred years, it has to move on. You have to invent new schools and new theories. At some point the process is forced to move on from the real problems to relatively arid intellectual innovations which are decreasingly popular.
Arguably JS Bach had already taken classical music to technical perfection, but there were still rich rewards to be reaped in a Romantic revolution, and Beethoven was the man to deliver one, hitting the crest of the wave.
So it's not that later music was stunted by copying Beethoven, it's more that our culture obliged composers to go on thinking up new kinds of music, with gradually diminishing rewards.
posted by Segundus at 3:58 AM on October 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
> Arguably JS Bach had already taken classical music to technical perfection, but there were still rich rewards to be reaped in a Romantic revolution
Sonata-allegro form (invented and developed almost completely post-J.S., though his sons contributed) has given us things just as great as any fugue ever written, even by Bach. And though some of those very great sonata-form pieces are as purple, tempestuous, and Romantic as you could possibly wish, the form does not owe its greatness to those qualities because there are other very great sonata-form pieces that are cool and cerebral, and yet others that are purely beautiful but still make you grab your skull in your hands and go OMGOMG I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I JUST HEARD because of the astonishing skill of the harmony, counterpoint, and thematic development.
I grant you, though, that after I've mentioned sonata form there's going to be quite a long pause while I thrash around trying to come up with another technical innovation to rank with that one.
posted by jfuller at 5:09 AM on October 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
Sonata-allegro form (invented and developed almost completely post-J.S., though his sons contributed) has given us things just as great as any fugue ever written, even by Bach. And though some of those very great sonata-form pieces are as purple, tempestuous, and Romantic as you could possibly wish, the form does not owe its greatness to those qualities because there are other very great sonata-form pieces that are cool and cerebral, and yet others that are purely beautiful but still make you grab your skull in your hands and go OMGOMG I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I JUST HEARD because of the astonishing skill of the harmony, counterpoint, and thematic development.
I grant you, though, that after I've mentioned sonata form there's going to be quite a long pause while I thrash around trying to come up with another technical innovation to rank with that one.
posted by jfuller at 5:09 AM on October 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
So it's not that later music was stunted by copying Beethoven, it's more that our culture obliged composers to go on thinking up new kinds of music, with gradually diminishing rewards.
Gradually diminishing rewards? Well that's just like, your opinion man! Also I think it's probably pretty reductive to say that Bach took classical music to technical perfection. What does that even mean? What is 'technical' perfection?
I don't disagree certainly that Western classical music has always been obsessed with 'progress,' often to its detriment, and which eventually led the the backlash of such an idea in the 20th century (which gave rise to some of my favorite music in history). But there's something interesting about Beethoven's legacy in particular that sort of goes well beyond the mere theoretical and purely-musical innovations he is often credited with. It is not un-often that Beethoven gets credited with the very development of art for the sake of art, of the Kantian ideal of uncontextless beauty, of the divorced and transcendent art 'work.' It's not without reason we give him this solely unique place in the history of art, but, as Ross says, it very well may be a disservice to other artists and art generally, and perhaps even to Beethoven himself.
Can Beethoven ever elude the fate of monumental meaninglessness to which he seems consigned? Mathew concludes, persuasively, that we need to “recover a sense of the contingent and the illogical” in him
I am of two minds about. On the one hand, I think that's totally right and probably the logical and sound thing to do, aesthetically and historically. On the other hand, I feel like you can pry my complete veneration of Saint Beethoven Lord of Art from my cold dead hands.
In any case, very interesting article as always from the brilliant Alex Ross, thanks for sharing.
I will conclude this somewhat meandering pre-coffee comment by saying that I wish Beethoven's Eighth got more airtime. What is up with the obsession with the Fifth anyway? The eighth is where it's at sheeple!
posted by Lutoslawski at 5:58 AM on October 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
Gradually diminishing rewards? Well that's just like, your opinion man! Also I think it's probably pretty reductive to say that Bach took classical music to technical perfection. What does that even mean? What is 'technical' perfection?
I don't disagree certainly that Western classical music has always been obsessed with 'progress,' often to its detriment, and which eventually led the the backlash of such an idea in the 20th century (which gave rise to some of my favorite music in history). But there's something interesting about Beethoven's legacy in particular that sort of goes well beyond the mere theoretical and purely-musical innovations he is often credited with. It is not un-often that Beethoven gets credited with the very development of art for the sake of art, of the Kantian ideal of uncontextless beauty, of the divorced and transcendent art 'work.' It's not without reason we give him this solely unique place in the history of art, but, as Ross says, it very well may be a disservice to other artists and art generally, and perhaps even to Beethoven himself.
Can Beethoven ever elude the fate of monumental meaninglessness to which he seems consigned? Mathew concludes, persuasively, that we need to “recover a sense of the contingent and the illogical” in him
I am of two minds about. On the one hand, I think that's totally right and probably the logical and sound thing to do, aesthetically and historically. On the other hand, I feel like you can pry my complete veneration of Saint Beethoven Lord of Art from my cold dead hands.
In any case, very interesting article as always from the brilliant Alex Ross, thanks for sharing.
I will conclude this somewhat meandering pre-coffee comment by saying that I wish Beethoven's Eighth got more airtime. What is up with the obsession with the Fifth anyway? The eighth is where it's at sheeple!
posted by Lutoslawski at 5:58 AM on October 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
"Vell, Johann's just zis guy, you know?" - Gag Halfrunt, Beethoven's brain-care specialist
posted by Foosnark at 6:05 AM on October 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 6:05 AM on October 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Der Name Beethoven ist heilig in der Kunst."
-- Franz Lizst
posted by Herodios at 6:15 AM on October 14, 2014
What is 'technical' perfection?
It is technical 'perfection'
posted by thelonius at 6:53 AM on October 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
It is technical 'perfection'
posted by thelonius at 6:53 AM on October 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
On the micro level, my little pianist (who is 11), has been dying to play the Moonlight Sonata for about 5 years. She can do the first page, but needs to be able to grab a 10th to get the rest — her hands are still too small.
The stuff really cuts through.
She's a bit young to be affected by the anxiety of influence. For the moment at least.
posted by Wolof at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2014
The stuff really cuts through.
She's a bit young to be affected by the anxiety of influence. For the moment at least.
posted by Wolof at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2014
Well that's just like, your opinion man! Also I think it's probably pretty reductive to say that Bach took classical music to technical perfection. What does that even mean?
Yes, true enough. It is just my opinion, though the predominance of eighteenth and nineteenth century music in the classical repertoire does say something, I reckon.
On Bach, I particularly have in mind that his exploration of musical temperament (coinciding with the triumph of equal temperament generally) and his mastery of counterpoint opened up the possibilities of harmonic development to the greatest extent possible. This is a remarkable and unique Western achievement (though I freely acknowledge, for example, the alternative tradition of sequential development in Carnatic music). It's quite possible I'm talking pretentious bollocks here to some extent, but the point is I'm not just saying I happen to like Bach.
I tip my hat respectfully to the sonata and I'm sure there were other worthwhile innovations.
posted by Segundus at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2014
Yes, true enough. It is just my opinion, though the predominance of eighteenth and nineteenth century music in the classical repertoire does say something, I reckon.
On Bach, I particularly have in mind that his exploration of musical temperament (coinciding with the triumph of equal temperament generally) and his mastery of counterpoint opened up the possibilities of harmonic development to the greatest extent possible. This is a remarkable and unique Western achievement (though I freely acknowledge, for example, the alternative tradition of sequential development in Carnatic music). It's quite possible I'm talking pretentious bollocks here to some extent, but the point is I'm not just saying I happen to like Bach.
I tip my hat respectfully to the sonata and I'm sure there were other worthwhile innovations.
posted by Segundus at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2014
The whole "concert hall as museum" thing is what convinced me not to pursue orchestral composition after I got my degree in it. Recent articles from within the community reinforce my belief.
It seems like this sort of calcification is endemic to any sufficiently successful art form which becomes institutionalized. See also: musical theater and jazz.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:01 AM on October 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
It seems like this sort of calcification is endemic to any sufficiently successful art form which becomes institutionalized. See also: musical theater and jazz.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:01 AM on October 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
[T]he duration of first-generation compact disks was fixed at seventy-five minutes so that the Ninth Symphony could unfurl without interruption.
--- Alex Ross
Snopes
Various reasons have been offered to explain why the 74-minute length was chosen, all of them involving Beethoven's 9th Symphony: that length was chosen because Beethoven's 9th was Ohga's favorite piece of music, because it was Sony chairman Akio Morita's wife's favorite piece of music, or because conductor Herbert von Karajan (who recorded for the PolyGram label, a subsidiary of Philips Electronics) "demanded" it. . . .
The multiplicity of reasons given for the 74-minute choice should in itself be cause for skepticism. . . .
The fact remains that nearly all modern-day recordings of Beethoven's 9th Symphony (including the von Karajan recording with the Berlin Philharmonic often cited as the reference recording) are several minutes shorter than the initial 74-minute maximum length of a CD. Whether Sony simply chose the longer of two discrete lengths (which, fortunately, was long enough to accommodate Beethoven's 9th) or whether they chose a specific length from a range of possibilities is unknown.
Status: Undetermined.My personal favourite recording happens to be about 63 minutes. Anything under 60 minutes sounds rushed, but those recordings are popular with radio stations because they fit between station IDs, leading to decades of frustrating listening.
posted by Herodios at 7:04 AM on October 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
Twentieth-century composers aren't exactly crazy about Beethoven. Erik Satie once criticized Beethoven's music for having too much "sauerkraut" in it. In one of his lectures, La Monte Young said, "Once I tried lots of mustard on a raw turnip, I liked it better than any Beethoven that I had ever heard."
posted by jonp72 at 7:52 AM on October 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by jonp72 at 7:52 AM on October 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
What is 'technical' perfection?
The best kind of perfection!
posted by Naberius at 8:03 AM on October 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
The best kind of perfection!
posted by Naberius at 8:03 AM on October 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
Wow, an Alex Ross article that doesn't mention Reich or Nico Muhly.
posted by ReeMonster at 8:28 AM on October 14, 2014
posted by ReeMonster at 8:28 AM on October 14, 2014
Interesting article.
What was different after Beethoven was that people were interested both in innovation in music (like in all the centuries before), but also got into listening and re listening to music of past times. So all of a sudden there was a historical perspective, a feeling that listening to the 'classics' was adding something to musical culture that new music couldn't give.
Two examples: j.s. Bach was interested in other musical styles, but those were largely the styles of his contemporaries. Vivaldi, Couperin, to name two contrasting ones. He perhaps also knew old counterpoint and Palestrina, but used those styles more like a quarry, not like a great example of a better esthetic world from the past.
Second example, Brahms got really slowly into composing Symphonies, why, because he was acutely aware of the example Beethoven, and self conscious about it, because everyone in his time cherished both, innovation, and great music of the past.
Of course it isn't Beethoven's "fault" that romanticism took a different view on music of the past, but it is clear from his writings and conversations that he did intend his music to last past its time.
posted by Namlit at 8:36 AM on October 14, 2014
What was different after Beethoven was that people were interested both in innovation in music (like in all the centuries before), but also got into listening and re listening to music of past times. So all of a sudden there was a historical perspective, a feeling that listening to the 'classics' was adding something to musical culture that new music couldn't give.
Two examples: j.s. Bach was interested in other musical styles, but those were largely the styles of his contemporaries. Vivaldi, Couperin, to name two contrasting ones. He perhaps also knew old counterpoint and Palestrina, but used those styles more like a quarry, not like a great example of a better esthetic world from the past.
Second example, Brahms got really slowly into composing Symphonies, why, because he was acutely aware of the example Beethoven, and self conscious about it, because everyone in his time cherished both, innovation, and great music of the past.
Of course it isn't Beethoven's "fault" that romanticism took a different view on music of the past, but it is clear from his writings and conversations that he did intend his music to last past its time.
posted by Namlit at 8:36 AM on October 14, 2014
Nobody could accuse La Monte Young or Satie of being delinquent in the iconoclasm department. I'm in the Bach-and-before and Ives-and-after camp, so have no problem simultaneously holding the position that Romanticism was stunted in the shade of the Ludvig Tree and not really caring that much.
posted by Devonian at 8:45 AM on October 14, 2014
posted by Devonian at 8:45 AM on October 14, 2014
On the micro level, my little pianist (who is 11), has been dying to play the Moonlight Sonata for about 5 years. She can do the first page, but needs to be able to grab a 10th to get the rest — her hands are still too small.
Just wait until she gets to the presto agitato.
posted by malocchio at 11:38 AM on October 14, 2014
Just wait until she gets to the presto agitato.
posted by malocchio at 11:38 AM on October 14, 2014
> Just wait until she gets to the presto agitato.
That happens at 13. Well, 12 for some.
posted by jfuller at 1:33 PM on October 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
That happens at 13. Well, 12 for some.
posted by jfuller at 1:33 PM on October 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
At that age, it is mostly agitato, but not often presto.
posted by Namlit at 1:41 PM on October 14, 2014
posted by Namlit at 1:41 PM on October 14, 2014
And so Beethoven assumed the problematic status of a secular god, his shadow falling on those who came after him, and even on those who came before him. Already in his own lifetime, the hyperbole was intensifying.
IT'S NOT HYPERBOLE IF IT'S TRUE
The simplest answer might be that Beethoven was so crushingly sublime that posterity capitulated. But no one is well served by history in the style of superhero comics. This composer, too, was shaped by circumstances, and he happened to reach his maturity just as listeners of an intellectual bent, such as E. T. A. Hoffmann, were primed for an oversized figure, an emperor of an expanding musical realm.
Right, that's why Beethoven blew me away as a kid and ever since, it was because I'd read E.T.A. Hoffman's review of the fifth symphony at age 4.
For this conundrum—an artist almost too great for the good of his art—Beethoven himself bears little responsibility.
Agreed. It's not Beethoven's fault that he kicked ass on a Biblical scale. Next.
To perform Beethoven to the exclusion of the living is to display a total lack of imagination.
This sentence deserves its own essay, if you really want to make that claim.
The continuing strength of the cult is evident in the accumulation of Beethoven books.
Yeah, and what's with all the Beatles re-releases lately? Haven't people heard of Justin Bieber?
Swafford has a marvellous chapter on the music of the “Eroica,” restoring freshness to a very familiar score. He shows how Beethoven composed not episode by episode but toward a predetermined climax—a dizzying, collagelike sequence of variations on an impish theme previously associated with Beethoven’s ballet “The Creatures of Prometheus.”
Oh wait, people still have new things to say about Herr Stiflemeister, amid all the accumulation? Huh.
Can Beethoven ever elude the fate of monumental meaninglessness to which he seems consigned?
Every fucking time I listen, dude.
A familiar tale has the dying Beethoven shaking his fist at the heavens amid a thunderstorm. Given the fabulist tendencies of Beethoven’s friends, there is no reason to believe the story, although meteorological records confirm the thunderstorm.
Look, I'll give you the real story. That thunderclap announced the arrival of Satan at Beethoven's deathbed, hoping to drag him down to hell, because Satan and God like to tussle over the interesting ones. And then Beethoven opened his eyes, raised his fist, and said "you feel lucky, punk?"
It did not end well for Satan. Because BEETHOVEN.
Alex Ross is a fine critic, and I don't want to put him down, but maybe next time (a) don't review 10 books at once, (b) don't be so all over the place and (c) don't forget that BEETHOVEN IS THE LORD THY GOD.*
*I'm actually pretty open-minded and these days I rarely kill people who prefer Bach.
posted by uosuaq at 6:01 PM on October 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
IT'S NOT HYPERBOLE IF IT'S TRUE
The simplest answer might be that Beethoven was so crushingly sublime that posterity capitulated. But no one is well served by history in the style of superhero comics. This composer, too, was shaped by circumstances, and he happened to reach his maturity just as listeners of an intellectual bent, such as E. T. A. Hoffmann, were primed for an oversized figure, an emperor of an expanding musical realm.
Right, that's why Beethoven blew me away as a kid and ever since, it was because I'd read E.T.A. Hoffman's review of the fifth symphony at age 4.
For this conundrum—an artist almost too great for the good of his art—Beethoven himself bears little responsibility.
Agreed. It's not Beethoven's fault that he kicked ass on a Biblical scale. Next.
To perform Beethoven to the exclusion of the living is to display a total lack of imagination.
This sentence deserves its own essay, if you really want to make that claim.
The continuing strength of the cult is evident in the accumulation of Beethoven books.
Yeah, and what's with all the Beatles re-releases lately? Haven't people heard of Justin Bieber?
Swafford has a marvellous chapter on the music of the “Eroica,” restoring freshness to a very familiar score. He shows how Beethoven composed not episode by episode but toward a predetermined climax—a dizzying, collagelike sequence of variations on an impish theme previously associated with Beethoven’s ballet “The Creatures of Prometheus.”
Oh wait, people still have new things to say about Herr Stiflemeister, amid all the accumulation? Huh.
Can Beethoven ever elude the fate of monumental meaninglessness to which he seems consigned?
Every fucking time I listen, dude.
A familiar tale has the dying Beethoven shaking his fist at the heavens amid a thunderstorm. Given the fabulist tendencies of Beethoven’s friends, there is no reason to believe the story, although meteorological records confirm the thunderstorm.
Look, I'll give you the real story. That thunderclap announced the arrival of Satan at Beethoven's deathbed, hoping to drag him down to hell, because Satan and God like to tussle over the interesting ones. And then Beethoven opened his eyes, raised his fist, and said "you feel lucky, punk?"
It did not end well for Satan. Because BEETHOVEN.
Alex Ross is a fine critic, and I don't want to put him down, but maybe next time (a) don't review 10 books at once, (b) don't be so all over the place and (c) don't forget that BEETHOVEN IS THE LORD THY GOD.*
*I'm actually pretty open-minded and these days I rarely kill people who prefer Bach.
posted by uosuaq at 6:01 PM on October 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
uosuaq: "Yeah, and what's with all the Beatles re-releases lately?"
This really didn't hit home until I thought of the Beatles and the related effect they have on pop/rock music.
Alex Ross in TFA sounds like he could be talking about the Beatles here: "Yet the idolatry has had a stifling effect on subsequent generations of composers, who must compete on a playing field that was designed to prolong Beethoven’s glory."
The Beatles are fantastic but I had to give them up. I have not quit Beethoven yet - in part because there are still works by him I haven't even heard - but he doesn't dominate my listening like when I first started really listening to classical music.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:02 PM on October 14, 2014
This really didn't hit home until I thought of the Beatles and the related effect they have on pop/rock music.
Alex Ross in TFA sounds like he could be talking about the Beatles here: "Yet the idolatry has had a stifling effect on subsequent generations of composers, who must compete on a playing field that was designed to prolong Beethoven’s glory."
The Beatles are fantastic but I had to give them up. I have not quit Beethoven yet - in part because there are still works by him I haven't even heard - but he doesn't dominate my listening like when I first started really listening to classical music.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:02 PM on October 14, 2014
Beethoven was a secular God, or Satan. Similarly, Timothy Leary carefully examined all the evidence and concluded that The Beatles were most likely aliens.
posted by colie at 11:40 AM on October 15, 2014
posted by colie at 11:40 AM on October 15, 2014
« Older Dropbox (not) hacked, but hackers claim 7 million... | "But the Skinner box is still real." Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by spitbull at 1:46 AM on October 14, 2014 [1 favorite]