It was for the best, every time.
October 16, 2014 8:44 PM Subscribe
I was like, "everyone in a Thomas Hardy novel" and sure enough, there it was.
posted by Small Dollar at 8:50 PM on October 16, 2014 [19 favorites]
posted by Small Dollar at 8:50 PM on October 16, 2014 [19 favorites]
Has anyone ever watched Knocked Up and not thought she should have aborted? Didn't the pope loosen guidance on abortion after seeing that film?
Padme though needed a script doctor more than an OB/GYN.
posted by biffa at 8:59 PM on October 16, 2014 [28 favorites]
Padme though needed a script doctor more than an OB/GYN.
posted by biffa at 8:59 PM on October 16, 2014 [28 favorites]
Where is Fantine from Les Miserables?
posted by Peregrine Pickle at 8:59 PM on October 16, 2014 [26 favorites]
posted by Peregrine Pickle at 8:59 PM on October 16, 2014 [26 favorites]
Lane Kim, totally. I always wondered how many people actually get pregnant the first time.
posted by amapolaroja at 9:06 PM on October 16, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by amapolaroja at 9:06 PM on October 16, 2014 [11 favorites]
Someone else brought down the Empire.
Yep, very few greats figure in history, real or imagined, were irreplaceable. Maybe Hitler. That abortion would've made a BIG difference.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:10 PM on October 16, 2014
Yep, very few greats figure in history, real or imagined, were irreplaceable. Maybe Hitler. That abortion would've made a BIG difference.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:10 PM on October 16, 2014
Much as we normally scoff at these listy-things, this one is immensely cathartic. Also add: every V.C. Andrews character, every Dickens character, and Gertrude of Denmark.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:17 PM on October 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:17 PM on October 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
The one about Lily Evans was dead on. Though I don't see how it was better for Alice the Auror not to have one as well.
posted by immlass at 9:24 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by immlass at 9:24 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
oneswellfoop: "Yep, very few greats figure in history, real or imagined, were irreplaceable. Maybe Hitler. That abortion would've made a BIG difference."
Man, I'm a bit sad I got beat to the The Diary of Anne Franke. Although I suppose she was non-fictional.
posted by pwnguin at 9:25 PM on October 16, 2014
Man, I'm a bit sad I got beat to the The Diary of Anne Franke. Although I suppose she was non-fictional.
posted by pwnguin at 9:25 PM on October 16, 2014
No Rosemary?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:27 PM on October 16, 2014 [29 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:27 PM on October 16, 2014 [29 favorites]
Christian Fletcher.
I think that the aborted one would have changed everything. Surely.
posted by Mblue at 9:29 PM on October 16, 2014
I think that the aborted one would have changed everything. Surely.
posted by Mblue at 9:29 PM on October 16, 2014
Charlie Bucket's great-grandmother lived a quiet and lonely life as an accountant. Many years later, Willie Wonka committed suicide, leaving no heir, when Mike Teavee was the last survivor of the tour but didn't give back the Everlasting Gobstopper.
posted by michaelh at 9:31 PM on October 16, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 9:31 PM on October 16, 2014 [10 favorites]
This article and its comments have informed that I was on the right track giving up onseveral series (Gilmore girls, x files, hunger games). All starting out strong, faltering (so I stopped watching) and then pregnancies that jump the shark.
posted by Tandem Affinity at 9:33 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Tandem Affinity at 9:33 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
HERMIONE GRANGER AND GINNY WEASLEY.
I could totally see them being mums at some point (they'd probably be like my sister and my best friend, who aren't Molly-level clucky but are still pretty good at parenting) but NOT IN THEIR TWENTIES. Hermione needs to be a Time Lord and Ginny needs to start a riot wytccch punk burlesque band first.
Luna got the later-at-life birth, why can't they?
posted by divabat at 9:41 PM on October 16, 2014 [31 favorites]
I could totally see them being mums at some point (they'd probably be like my sister and my best friend, who aren't Molly-level clucky but are still pretty good at parenting) but NOT IN THEIR TWENTIES. Hermione needs to be a Time Lord and Ginny needs to start a riot wytccch punk burlesque band first.
Luna got the later-at-life birth, why can't they?
posted by divabat at 9:41 PM on October 16, 2014 [31 favorites]
Lane Kim, totally. I always wondered how many people actually get pregnant the first time.
Her plus Spike from Degrassi Junior High equals two.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:50 PM on October 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
Her plus Spike from Degrassi Junior High equals two.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:50 PM on October 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
These were all correct. Actually the Toast was just on fire today. I can understand male writers not knowing what else to do with female characters at a certain point but the fact that so many of these were written by women is just so sad. Lane in particular is just so depressing. Theres nothing wrong with real people deciding not to have abortions but having a baby young is most of the time a dead end for like able characters who had a lot more for us to experience vicariously that we miss out on.
posted by bleep at 9:50 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 9:50 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I called my mother immediately after this, because she appreciates both a good abortion and a good thomas hardy joke.
posted by PinkMoose at 9:53 PM on October 16, 2014 [25 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 9:53 PM on October 16, 2014 [25 favorites]
Wow, there are so many ways that article could have gone wrong. Definitely not a topic I would ever attempt.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:00 PM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:00 PM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
On the subject of Gilmore Girls, season 7 Sookie St. James was entitled to both an abortion and a divorce.
posted by rabbitbookworm at 10:05 PM on October 16, 2014 [18 favorites]
posted by rabbitbookworm at 10:05 PM on October 16, 2014 [18 favorites]
I can understand male writers not knowing what else to do with female characters at a certain point but the fact that so many of these were written by women is just so sad.
Well, I mean, it's kind of the point though, right? The characters didn't have abortions and their lives went all to shit. That's a pro-abortion (not just pro-choice!) message.
What's so sad about that? How are these female writers traitors to their gender or whatever?
posted by Sys Rq at 10:07 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
Well, I mean, it's kind of the point though, right? The characters didn't have abortions and their lives went all to shit. That's a pro-abortion (not just pro-choice!) message.
What's so sad about that? How are these female writers traitors to their gender or whatever?
posted by Sys Rq at 10:07 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I love The Toast more than I could have possibly imagined.
posted by rtha at 10:08 PM on October 16, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by rtha at 10:08 PM on October 16, 2014 [10 favorites]
That's a pro-abortion (not just pro-choice!) message.
People having abortions and then having nice lives and not being judged and emotionally devastated would be pro-abortion. These just normalize the fact that if you get pregnant then what you do is not have an abortion, and then have a shitty life. You could read it as pro-abortion, but you can also just read it as anti-woman and anti-sex.
posted by agentofselection at 10:15 PM on October 16, 2014 [40 favorites]
People having abortions and then having nice lives and not being judged and emotionally devastated would be pro-abortion. These just normalize the fact that if you get pregnant then what you do is not have an abortion, and then have a shitty life. You could read it as pro-abortion, but you can also just read it as anti-woman and anti-sex.
posted by agentofselection at 10:15 PM on October 16, 2014 [40 favorites]
There were more things these characters could have done. There's more that women can do besides babies.
posted by bleep at 10:16 PM on October 16, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:16 PM on October 16, 2014 [7 favorites]
First blush? At least 90% of women in Dickens. Daisy Buchanan. Medea. Caddy Compson. Leda. Mildred Pierce.
posted by thivaia at 10:18 PM on October 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 10:18 PM on October 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
I agree with bleep. And I especially agree with FelliniBlank. In so many stories women are just hapless, disposable baby incubators for the Chosen One: in this list, Mallory Ortberg asks us to imagine if they'd gone on to have full, rich lives of their own choosing.
It's incredibly empowering; and yes, cathartic.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 10:19 PM on October 16, 2014 [19 favorites]
It's incredibly empowering; and yes, cathartic.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 10:19 PM on October 16, 2014 [19 favorites]
toast.metafilter.com, get pb on it, STAT.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:30 PM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:30 PM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
The Toast has now honed Its Thing so well that I knew just from the headline this must have been them.
Either that or I'm just reading them way too much lately. Love that site to pieces.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:34 PM on October 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
Either that or I'm just reading them way too much lately. Love that site to pieces.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:34 PM on October 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
Someone coined 'Chekhov's womb' in the comments which is pretty friggin excellent
posted by Quilford at 12:02 AM on October 17, 2014 [27 favorites]
posted by Quilford at 12:02 AM on October 17, 2014 [27 favorites]
Mallory Ortberg is just perfect. I don't know how I would improve this. And yeah, Knocked Up is the stupidest movie to ever stupid, because of course she would get a sodding abortion, and even if she didn't, she wouldn't involve that useless fuckup in her life ("oh hey I've finally got a job in my 30s having spent most of it getting high in a house full of losers. I am an excellent role model for our child!")
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:10 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:10 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
Juno irritated me in particular, because I didn't believe the character as portrayed would be dumb enough to have a kid she didn't want just so she could give it away to someone else.
posted by tavella at 12:14 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by tavella at 12:14 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
Yes! She planned the sex with Paulie, why the hell didn't she bring and use a condom?
J.K. Rowling has said that Ginny played for the Holyhead Harpies before she had kids.
posted by brujita at 12:30 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
J.K. Rowling has said that Ginny played for the Holyhead Harpies before she had kids.
posted by brujita at 12:30 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
"People having abortions and then having nice lives and not being judged and emotionally devastated would be pro-abortion. These just normalize the fact that if you get pregnant then what you do is not have an abortion, and then have a shitty life. You could read it as pro-abortion, but you can also just read it as anti-woman and anti-sex."Seriously.
There is something perniciously misogynistic about this listicle where it isn't even 'here is a list of fictional women whose lives could have been vastly improved by access to abortion', instead its 'here is a list of fictional women whose lives would have been vastly improved by a choice that we should have made for them without regard to how deeply violating that is or how devastated the characters might be'. I can't imagine that with wizard power and autocratic command of half a planet Lilly Potter or Padmé Amidala didn't have access to safe abortion, this isn't even plausibly "pro-choice," its something else so cartoonishly hypocritical that it almost makes sense to call it "anti-life". It doesn't respect their agency to say with detached arrogance that their reproductive choices were wrong somehow and it is not even remotely feminist to mock their love for their children, all it does is transmute the vitally important conversation we need to be having as a global community about reproductive rights into a shitty in-group joke that conspicuously betrays all of the principles it claims to represent.
More than that, the shitty misogynistic in-joke isn't even funny.
posted by Blasdelb at 2:54 AM on October 17, 2014 [19 favorites]
It doesn't respect their agency to say with detached arrogance that their reproductive choices were wrong somehow
They are fictional characters. They had no agency, because their reproductive choices were forced upon them by the book author. It is suggested that had they made their own choices instead, those choices could have included abortions. This would in many cases have benefited the characters but, sadly for the author, probably not the plot.
This is not the only area of fiction where characters are obliged by the author to make choices that are potentially against their own best interests, for the benefit of the plot. See every horror film ever.
posted by emilyw at 3:16 AM on October 17, 2014 [59 favorites]
They are fictional characters. They had no agency, because their reproductive choices were forced upon them by the book author. It is suggested that had they made their own choices instead, those choices could have included abortions. This would in many cases have benefited the characters but, sadly for the author, probably not the plot.
This is not the only area of fiction where characters are obliged by the author to make choices that are potentially against their own best interests, for the benefit of the plot. See every horror film ever.
posted by emilyw at 3:16 AM on October 17, 2014 [59 favorites]
Screw Padme, what about Shmi Skywalker? If I get pregnant from the fucking air, my first thought is probably not going to be immaculate conception; it's going to be more along the lines of "alien facehugger".
posted by selfnoise at 3:33 AM on October 17, 2014 [53 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 3:33 AM on October 17, 2014 [53 favorites]
"It is suggested that had they made their own choices instead, those choices could have included abortions.""You mean, if they had made your choices, held your values, and been modeled after you.
Fiction is so much more important and intimate than just a series of things imposed on someone who doesn't actually exist. As Mark Twain one said, "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction, fiction has to make sense." What we're really talking about here is what makes sense, the kinds of choices that people might conceivably make in a world that necessarily must make at least a sort of sense. What this listicle is really mocking isn't just make-believe but the real choices that real women make to have children that might be inconvenient or interrupting. Its asserting that choice to be ridiculous, laughable, and wrong when all it happens to actually be is simply not yours.
posted by Blasdelb at 3:34 AM on October 17, 2014 [12 favorites]
doesn’t really follow politics.
ROTFL
posted by Melismata at 4:00 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
ROTFL
posted by Melismata at 4:00 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Lana Kane. Seriously, why would she Archer.
Why would anyone ever Archer?
posted by Drexen at 4:17 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
Why would anyone ever Archer?
posted by Drexen at 4:17 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
toast.metafilter.com, get pb on it, STAT.
I enjoy The Toast and Mallory tremendously, but some days the blue appears to be becoming this on its own.
posted by middleclasstool at 4:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
I enjoy The Toast and Mallory tremendously, but some days the blue appears to be becoming this on its own.
posted by middleclasstool at 4:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Blasdelb: I don't understand how this listicle is mocking 'the real choices that real women make.' I haven't read/watched everything on the list, but it seems to me to be mocking the cliched, unrealistic choices that authors force on their female characters? Can you elaborate a little?
posted by Quilford at 4:26 AM on October 17, 2014 [15 favorites]
posted by Quilford at 4:26 AM on October 17, 2014 [15 favorites]
There is something perniciously misogynistic about this listicle where it isn't even 'here is a list of fictional women whose lives could have been vastly improved by access to abortion', instead its 'here is a list of fictional women whose lives would have been vastly improved by a choice that we should have made for them without regard to how deeply violating that is or how devastated the characters might be'.
That assumes abortion has to be deeply violating or devastating. Most abortions in fiction are violating and devastating, but in real life, and for the 1/5 of pregnancies that end in abortion in America, the people who have them move on. They live their lives. They end up doing both important and non-important things. They regret it, or don't regret it, but they're OK. Heck, some of them post right here on Metafilter.
Fantine could have been free to marry and build a life for herself, regardless of how meager it might have been. Tess endured more violation and devastation from her decision to have the baby (the church refused to bury Tess's baby in the churchyard, her own husband shunned her and fled to Brazil) than she would have ever suffered from ending the pregnancy. Tess would have been a teacher, by the way. A good and kind teacher in a nearby village, and her sister would come live with her. She'd marry a parson and Liza-Lu would marry a stonemason.
posted by mochapickle at 4:27 AM on October 17, 2014 [41 favorites]
That assumes abortion has to be deeply violating or devastating. Most abortions in fiction are violating and devastating, but in real life, and for the 1/5 of pregnancies that end in abortion in America, the people who have them move on. They live their lives. They end up doing both important and non-important things. They regret it, or don't regret it, but they're OK. Heck, some of them post right here on Metafilter.
Fantine could have been free to marry and build a life for herself, regardless of how meager it might have been. Tess endured more violation and devastation from her decision to have the baby (the church refused to bury Tess's baby in the churchyard, her own husband shunned her and fled to Brazil) than she would have ever suffered from ending the pregnancy. Tess would have been a teacher, by the way. A good and kind teacher in a nearby village, and her sister would come live with her. She'd marry a parson and Liza-Lu would marry a stonemason.
posted by mochapickle at 4:27 AM on October 17, 2014 [41 favorites]
Good article overall, but I'm sick of this take on Katniss Everdeen. She states over and over that she doesn't want children throughout the books...because she likes children so much and doesn't want to bring a child into the world only to see it suffer. When she finally has kids with Peeta it means that she finally trusts that that world is a place where children can grow up safe and happy, not that Peeta wore her down.
posted by capricorn at 4:30 AM on October 17, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 4:30 AM on October 17, 2014 [16 favorites]
What, no Hester Prynne?
posted by GrammarMoses at 4:31 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by GrammarMoses at 4:31 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
Finally someone mentions Hester Prynne. And, obviously Scarlett O'Hara never wanted Wade.
posted by jfwlucy at 4:41 AM on October 17, 2014
posted by jfwlucy at 4:41 AM on October 17, 2014
I definitely do wish a better reason had been given for Juno not having an abortion.
posted by capricorn at 4:44 AM on October 17, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 4:44 AM on October 17, 2014 [11 favorites]
That assumes abortion has to be deeply violating or devastating.
The comment you replied to didn't say that abortion is deeply violating, but that having someone else decide whether any specific woman should have an abortion is deeply violating. I agree with that and it makes this article disturbing for me too.
Most abortions in fiction are violating and devastating, but in real life, and for the 1/5 of pregnancies that end in abortion in America, the people who have them move on. They live their lives.
In the US 37% of pregnancies that end in birth are unplanned. Women who have these children tend to move on and live their lives too.
posted by blub at 4:58 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
In the US 37% of pregnancies that end in birth are unplanned. Women who have these children tend to move on and live their lives too.
Right, and they're depicted in thousands of stories. How many stories, comparatively, involve women having abortions and it not totally ruining their lives?
posted by Solon and Thanks at 5:02 AM on October 17, 2014 [29 favorites]
Right, and they're depicted in thousands of stories. How many stories, comparatively, involve women having abortions and it not totally ruining their lives?
posted by Solon and Thanks at 5:02 AM on October 17, 2014 [29 favorites]
What, no Hester Prynne?
What, so - evidence of her adultery undiscovered - she stays with Chillingworth and is miserable forever, without even her beloved daughter to bring her joy?
I mean, I'm not saying I think Hawthorne's premise that the scarlet A totally liberated Hester from her restrictive society (and from evil science) was well-thought-out, but...
posted by capricorn at 5:07 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
What, so - evidence of her adultery undiscovered - she stays with Chillingworth and is miserable forever, without even her beloved daughter to bring her joy?
I mean, I'm not saying I think Hawthorne's premise that the scarlet A totally liberated Hester from her restrictive society (and from evil science) was well-thought-out, but...
posted by capricorn at 5:07 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
we should have made for them without regard to how deeply violating that is or how devastated the characters might be
All fictional characters have choices made for them by their creators. They cannot be devastated because they do not exist. And they are not required to be devastated even if their creators chose to have them terminate a pregnancy - real women aren't, either.
posted by rtha at 5:09 AM on October 17, 2014 [31 favorites]
All fictional characters have choices made for them by their creators. They cannot be devastated because they do not exist. And they are not required to be devastated even if their creators chose to have them terminate a pregnancy - real women aren't, either.
posted by rtha at 5:09 AM on October 17, 2014 [31 favorites]
As an aside, I would like to mention April Wheeler in Revolutionary Road, whose life would have been vastly improved by a legal abortion.
posted by scratch at 5:22 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by scratch at 5:22 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
> "Right, and they're depicted in thousands of stories. How many stories, comparatively, involve women having abortions and it not totally ruining their lives?"
Offhand, High Fidelity is the only one I can think of. And on the other side, yeah, I can easily come up with dozens.
posted by kyrademon at 5:29 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Offhand, High Fidelity is the only one I can think of. And on the other side, yeah, I can easily come up with dozens.
posted by kyrademon at 5:29 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Blasdelb: "There is something perniciously misogynistic about this listicle where it isn't even 'here is a list of fictional women whose lives could have been vastly improved by access to abortion', instead its 'here is a list of fictional women whose lives would have been vastly improved by a choice that we should have made for them without regard to how deeply violating that is or how devastated the characters might be'."You've misunderstood me. This only assumes that imposing the expectation of abortion on others is deeply violating thing and that for many women - whose feelings, values, and bodily autonomy is just as important as yours - abortion would be a devastating thing, including many in places where liberalism has gone all the way around the horseshoe to where this is not hypothetical.
mochapickle: "That assumes abortion has to be deeply violating or devastating."
rtha: "All fictional characters have choices made for them by their creators. They cannot be devastated because they do not exist. And they are not required to be devastated even if their creators chose to have them terminate a pregnancy - real women aren't, either."Real women have a functionally infinite number of ways to feel about abortion, or just about any conceivable thing, because women in reality are not fictional, don't need to make sense to you, and are not categorically represented by you no matter how much you might wish it were so.
Besides, no one is currently talking about women who have chosen to have an abortion, I'm talking about women who have made sacrifices in order to choose not to have one and their right to make sense in spite of this listicle's smarmy arrogance.
posted by Blasdelb at 5:32 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Suggesting I'm a proponent of forced abortion simply because I can imagine an alternate plot for a fictional character is just past reactionary and halfway to bonkers.
It would be arrogant of anyone to suggest that an actual human, living, breathing woman should or should not carry a child to term. I'm not imposing abortion on anyone.
posted by mochapickle at 5:51 AM on October 17, 2014 [61 favorites]
It would be arrogant of anyone to suggest that an actual human, living, breathing woman should or should not carry a child to term. I'm not imposing abortion on anyone.
posted by mochapickle at 5:51 AM on October 17, 2014 [61 favorites]
What, so - evidence of her adultery undiscovered - she stays with Chillingworth and is miserable forever, without even her beloved daughter to bring her joy?
Had Chillingworth never known of her adultery, he presumably would not have been consumed by vengeance. Maybe he and Hester could have fixed their marriage (after his long absence) or simply decided to live apart.
Dimmesdale, that simp, might have died of guilt regardless -- but then again, maybe not.
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:51 AM on October 17, 2014
Had Chillingworth never known of her adultery, he presumably would not have been consumed by vengeance. Maybe he and Hester could have fixed their marriage (after his long absence) or simply decided to live apart.
Dimmesdale, that simp, might have died of guilt regardless -- but then again, maybe not.
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:51 AM on October 17, 2014
I always wondered how many people actually get pregnant the first time.
An old friend of mine got a girl pregnant on his first time. Not quite the same, I know, still...Bad damned luck.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:52 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
An old friend of mine got a girl pregnant on his first time. Not quite the same, I know, still...Bad damned luck.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:52 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Good article overall, but I'm sick of this take on Katniss Everdeen. She states over and over that she doesn't want children throughout the books...because she likes children so much and doesn't want to bring a child into the world only to see it suffer.
I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly from the books, all of that talk was prior to her getting almost killed and having to kill and seeing people she loved die over and over and over and being used as a political tool and suffering big time from PTSD.
Again, it's been a while since I read the books so I may be misremembering, but I didn't get the impression at all that she was completely into having her little life with Peeta and the kids by the end of the book.
This poor kid spent her life being thrust from one shitty situation into another, being used and controlled by other people, and then finally when it's all over and she finally has time to just be for a while, and spend some time not being wrapped up in someone else's story, she falls into a marriage with a dude she's not even sure she likes that much, and has kids.
This one makes sense.
posted by phunniemee at 5:53 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly from the books, all of that talk was prior to her getting almost killed and having to kill and seeing people she loved die over and over and over and being used as a political tool and suffering big time from PTSD.
Again, it's been a while since I read the books so I may be misremembering, but I didn't get the impression at all that she was completely into having her little life with Peeta and the kids by the end of the book.
This poor kid spent her life being thrust from one shitty situation into another, being used and controlled by other people, and then finally when it's all over and she finally has time to just be for a while, and spend some time not being wrapped up in someone else's story, she falls into a marriage with a dude she's not even sure she likes that much, and has kids.
This one makes sense.
posted by phunniemee at 5:53 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
There was an old woman who lived in a shoe.
She had a cat.
posted by delfin at 5:58 AM on October 17, 2014 [62 favorites]
She had a cat.
posted by delfin at 5:58 AM on October 17, 2014 [62 favorites]
Charlotte Haze glanced up from her morning paper. Out her window, she saw a car pass by.
posted by Flunkie at 6:02 AM on October 17, 2014 [19 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 6:02 AM on October 17, 2014 [19 favorites]
Blasdelb: in Knocked Up, do you feel like the lead had an abortion because it completely made sense with the character she was given, or because it meant that there would be a plot?
I find your take on this completely bizzare. These are fictional characters. If I am watching a horror film and suggest that the characters should not have split up, am I violating their agency? Or I think one character in a film should have/ should not have shot another, I am forcing them to kill/not kill?
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:10 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
I find your take on this completely bizzare. These are fictional characters. If I am watching a horror film and suggest that the characters should not have split up, am I violating their agency? Or I think one character in a film should have/ should not have shot another, I am forcing them to kill/not kill?
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:10 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
How dare Mallory Ortberg change works of literature which have been changed into everything from slash scatfic to crossover universe-spanning epics into a thought-provoking examination of a cultural stigma which popular literature doesn't frequently examine?
This offensive article is a gross assault on my cherished Ron/Dobby coupling, the value of would have been deeply diminished had Harry Potter not been born and around to humorously interrupt their frenzied coupling that fateful evening in Hagrid's pumpkin patch.
posted by rorgy at 6:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [31 favorites]
This offensive article is a gross assault on my cherished Ron/Dobby coupling, the value of would have been deeply diminished had Harry Potter not been born and around to humorously interrupt their frenzied coupling that fateful evening in Hagrid's pumpkin patch.
posted by rorgy at 6:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [31 favorites]
CATHERINE BARKLEY HOLY HELL.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 6:16 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Snarl Furillo at 6:16 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
I do recall an abortion during Star Wars, I believe they were called "the prequels".
posted by dr_dank at 6:18 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 6:18 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Selfnoise: the more I think on it after reading this, the more I find myself thinking that if Shmi Skywalker -had- made that choice, that the Empire might never have risen in the first place.
As big a game as they talk about Palpatine having for plots, there was a lot of luck and Anakin making bad decisions in his schemes.
posted by Archelaus at 6:19 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
As big a game as they talk about Palpatine having for plots, there was a lot of luck and Anakin making bad decisions in his schemes.
posted by Archelaus at 6:19 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Charlotte Haze glanced up from her morning paper. Out her window, she saw a car pass by.
Oooh, I love the subtle ones.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:19 AM on October 17, 2014
Oooh, I love the subtle ones.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:19 AM on October 17, 2014
Selfnoise: the more I think on it after reading this, the more I find myself thinking that if Shmi Skywalker -had- made that choice, that the Empire might never have risen in the first place.
Nonsense. If not for Anakin, the Emperor would have just stayed undetected for even longer. Order 66 would still have been carried out, and the Empire would have started just as it did.
Anakin is the only one who ever posed an existential threat to the Emperor, which is why he needed to be turned. Without him, the Emperor is unopposed.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Nonsense. If not for Anakin, the Emperor would have just stayed undetected for even longer. Order 66 would still have been carried out, and the Empire would have started just as it did.
Anakin is the only one who ever posed an existential threat to the Emperor, which is why he needed to be turned. Without him, the Emperor is unopposed.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Tess endured more violation and devastation from her decision to have the baby (the church refused to bury Tess's baby in the churchyard, her own husband shunned her and fled to Brazil) than she would have ever suffered from ending the pregnancy.
Well, except that it's Hardy, so I think we can safely assume she'd have suffered hugely whatever she did.
I also found this article a bit troubling. (And yes, yes, fine, it's about fictional characters, but had it been "Fictional Characters Whose Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved By Having Babies" I think quite a few of us would have had an issue with that too.) Some of it comes across as less "it would've been so much better if this character had had access to safe, legal and non-stigmatised abortion", and more "it would've been so much better if this character had done the sensible thing and got an abortion", and the second one of those does chafe me. Hetty Sorrel, yes. Padme Amidala? I don't know, but I don't see any reason to assume she didn't want the pregnancy,* so not really the same thing.
It does redeem itself for me somewhat by having a range of women's feelings about their abortions from Juno's to Shelby in Steel Magnolias, all of which are presented as legitimate and fine.
* although maybe, given that reproductive care in her world apparently involves putting all the money into robot midwives to the point where nobody diagnoses twins and women die in childbirth from Plotdevicitis.
posted by Catseye at 6:24 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Well, except that it's Hardy, so I think we can safely assume she'd have suffered hugely whatever she did.
I also found this article a bit troubling. (And yes, yes, fine, it's about fictional characters, but had it been "Fictional Characters Whose Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved By Having Babies" I think quite a few of us would have had an issue with that too.) Some of it comes across as less "it would've been so much better if this character had had access to safe, legal and non-stigmatised abortion", and more "it would've been so much better if this character had done the sensible thing and got an abortion", and the second one of those does chafe me. Hetty Sorrel, yes. Padme Amidala? I don't know, but I don't see any reason to assume she didn't want the pregnancy,* so not really the same thing.
It does redeem itself for me somewhat by having a range of women's feelings about their abortions from Juno's to Shelby in Steel Magnolias, all of which are presented as legitimate and fine.
* although maybe, given that reproductive care in her world apparently involves putting all the money into robot midwives to the point where nobody diagnoses twins and women die in childbirth from Plotdevicitis.
posted by Catseye at 6:24 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
I don't get Padme ending up a farmer's wife and giving up politics. It seems weirdly passive for such a strong character.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 6:30 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 6:30 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
me: "It is suggested that had they made their own choices instead, those choices could have included abortions."
blasdelb: You mean, if they had made your choices, held your values, and been modeled after you.
To me it seems self evident that "choice" means actually literally "choice", like the kind of choice that one makes freely, not "for sure I would totally choose all the abortions and so should you".
I did not read this article as suggesting a moral obligation on me to have an abortion, should I find myself pregnant with a wanted child while being chased by an evil wizard. I am just extremely glad that SHOULD this come to pass, I can make the choice freely. Either one.
Clearly we need another alternative universe article, in which Tess Durbeyfield's daughter survives thanks to affordable healthcare, and they are supported by her local community and go on to run a family business selling hand made furniture.
posted by emilyw at 6:37 AM on October 17, 2014 [13 favorites]
blasdelb: You mean, if they had made your choices, held your values, and been modeled after you.
To me it seems self evident that "choice" means actually literally "choice", like the kind of choice that one makes freely, not "for sure I would totally choose all the abortions and so should you".
I did not read this article as suggesting a moral obligation on me to have an abortion, should I find myself pregnant with a wanted child while being chased by an evil wizard. I am just extremely glad that SHOULD this come to pass, I can make the choice freely. Either one.
Clearly we need another alternative universe article, in which Tess Durbeyfield's daughter survives thanks to affordable healthcare, and they are supported by her local community and go on to run a family business selling hand made furniture.
posted by emilyw at 6:37 AM on October 17, 2014 [13 favorites]
...had it been "Fictional Characters Whose Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved By Having Babies" I think quite a few of us would have had an issue with that too.
Nah man. The reverse narrative exercise is so common as to be a trope: the childless woman (by choice, by accident, by loss or whatever her story may be) daydreaming about the lives that could have been, naming the children, picturing little toddlers running in the fields... How I Met Your Mother had a whole show about Robin's imaginary children.
I'm not sure how either are offensive.
posted by Freyja at 6:44 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Nah man. The reverse narrative exercise is so common as to be a trope: the childless woman (by choice, by accident, by loss or whatever her story may be) daydreaming about the lives that could have been, naming the children, picturing little toddlers running in the fields... How I Met Your Mother had a whole show about Robin's imaginary children.
I'm not sure how either are offensive.
posted by Freyja at 6:44 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Claire in Outlander. Oh Frank, I had a bit of highland flu, now let's go on with our lives, shall we. The paper they could have saved.
posted by Namlit at 6:48 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Namlit at 6:48 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Cannon Fodder: "Blasdelb: in Knocked Up, do you feel like the lead had an abortion because it completely made sense with the character she was given, or because it meant that there would be a plot?The lead character in Knocked Up decides not to have an abortion because that is a relatable human thing to do that relatable human drama can be piled onto. A hypothetical story with with the same basic premise but a different decision would also be relatable and human and could also generate relatable human drama on its way to the other things in the lead's life - even if it might be harder to pull off with a coherent narrative much less as a light comedy containing Seth Rogan.
I find your take on this completely bizzare. These are fictional characters. If I am watching a horror film and suggest that the characters should not have split up, am I violating their agency? Or I think one character in a film should have/ should not have shot another, I am forcing them to kill/not kill?"
So much of what fiction does is that it communicates values in place of facts, and while bad fiction is easy to criticize for failing to coherently communicate values, this listicle is doing something else. Its saying that deciding to have a child anyway, even though you're being chased by evil wizard, is wrong along with several other perfectly relatable, valid, and human decisions made in the stories this is mocking. This is unlike saying that characters in a horror film are being unrelatably stupid for splitting up, or that the killing or sparing of some foe was right or wrong. By laughing along and declaring that - yes, only a ridiculous person would do such a thing as our decisions make so much more sense and should replace this fictional woman's - we're communicating our values too. They're just not pretty.
posted by Blasdelb at 7:03 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
In the book (not the movie) of "Fried Green Tomatoes", the judge at Idgy and Big George's trial throws out the case not just because there's no evidence, but also because Frank Bennett got the judge's daughter pregnant (can't remember if it was a rape), and she's now living a life of misery and poverty.
posted by Melismata at 7:05 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 7:05 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
I usually enjoy Ortberg's articles, but I find her selection in this case a bit strange. Tess of the d'Urbervilles is a classic example of someone forced to have an unwanted child, but a lot of the other cases seem to be women who wanted these children. I think an important part of being pro-choice is accepting the choices that other people make, and there seem to me to be undertones of you shouldn't have wanted this child in some of her examples.
Her Mrs Bennet section doesn't work for me at all. In the book, Mrs. Bennet does have a more or less happy-ever-after, so there doesn't seem to be any pressing reason to choose her for this hypothetical abortion. There's no reason to believe that having only three children would in any way stop her spending their full family income, and for the girls, a dowry of £2,000 instead of £1,000 would not change their social position, so the money aspect doesn't work. More importantly, it's clear that Kitty and Lydia are the two daughters who are most in sympathy with her, since all three of them are silly in the same way. Jane is dutiful, Elizabeth barely tolerates her, and Mary's silliness is so different that Mrs. Bennet has little time for her. Without the safety-valve of two sympathetic daughters, it's just as likely that Mrs. Bennet would have been miserable.
posted by Azara at 7:06 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
Her Mrs Bennet section doesn't work for me at all. In the book, Mrs. Bennet does have a more or less happy-ever-after, so there doesn't seem to be any pressing reason to choose her for this hypothetical abortion. There's no reason to believe that having only three children would in any way stop her spending their full family income, and for the girls, a dowry of £2,000 instead of £1,000 would not change their social position, so the money aspect doesn't work. More importantly, it's clear that Kitty and Lydia are the two daughters who are most in sympathy with her, since all three of them are silly in the same way. Jane is dutiful, Elizabeth barely tolerates her, and Mary's silliness is so different that Mrs. Bennet has little time for her. Without the safety-valve of two sympathetic daughters, it's just as likely that Mrs. Bennet would have been miserable.
posted by Azara at 7:06 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
So much of what fiction does is that it communicates values in place of facts, and while bad fiction is easy to criticize for failing to coherently communicate values, this listicle is doing something else. Its saying that deciding to have a child anyway, even though you're being chased by evil wizard, is wrong along with several other perfectly relatable, valid, and human decisions made in the stories this is mocking. This is unlike saying that characters in a horror film are being unrelatably stupid for splitting up, or that the killing or sparing of some foe was right or wrong. By laughing along and declaring that - yes, only a ridiculous person would do such a thing as our decisions make so much more sense and should replace this fictional woman's - we're communicating our values too. They're just not pretty.
This argument is practically Orwellian.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:07 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
This argument is practically Orwellian.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:07 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
Selfnoise: the more I think on it after reading this, the more I find myself thinking that if Shmi Skywalker -had- made that choice, that the Empire might never have risen in the first place.
Nonsense. If not for Anakin, the Emperor would have just stayed undetected for even longer. Order 66 would still have been carried out, and the Empire would have started just as it did.
Anakin is the only one who ever posed an existential threat to the Emperor, which is why he needed to be turned. Without him, the Emperor is unopposed.
Since I started this... I was thinking about it some more and it doesn't really fit. I mean maybe Shmi doesn't give birth to a galactic dickbag, but honestly I'm not sure HER life would have been any better, considering what happens in the movies.
posted by selfnoise at 7:08 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Nonsense. If not for Anakin, the Emperor would have just stayed undetected for even longer. Order 66 would still have been carried out, and the Empire would have started just as it did.
Anakin is the only one who ever posed an existential threat to the Emperor, which is why he needed to be turned. Without him, the Emperor is unopposed.
Since I started this... I was thinking about it some more and it doesn't really fit. I mean maybe Shmi doesn't give birth to a galactic dickbag, but honestly I'm not sure HER life would have been any better, considering what happens in the movies.
posted by selfnoise at 7:08 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
No one is saying that these characters having babies is WRONG. It's merely imagining how the stories might have gone if they'd had abortions, instead. Why is this thought experiment so upsetting and threatening to some people? The reasons given so far don't make any sense.
posted by chowflap at 7:12 AM on October 17, 2014 [39 favorites]
posted by chowflap at 7:12 AM on October 17, 2014 [39 favorites]
A hypothetical story with with the same basic premise but a different decision would also be relatable and human and could also generate relatable human drama on its way to the other things in the lead's life...
Isn't this the inherent premise of the listicle?
Why is a thought experiment about alternative narratives offensive? The writer concludes these characters' lives would have been "vastly improved." She writes for The Toast. Given the source, her conclusion surprises you?
The reverse narrative exercise is so common as to be a trope: the childless woman (by choice, by accident, by loss or whatever her story may be) daydreaming about the lives that could have been, naming the children, picturing little toddlers running in the fields...
This.
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
Isn't this the inherent premise of the listicle?
Why is a thought experiment about alternative narratives offensive? The writer concludes these characters' lives would have been "vastly improved." She writes for The Toast. Given the source, her conclusion surprises you?
The reverse narrative exercise is so common as to be a trope: the childless woman (by choice, by accident, by loss or whatever her story may be) daydreaming about the lives that could have been, naming the children, picturing little toddlers running in the fields...
This.
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
I usually enjoy Ortberg's articles, but I find her selection in this case a bit strange. Tess of the d'Urbervilles is a classic example of someone forced to have an unwanted child, but a lot of the other cases seem to be women who wanted these children. I think an important part of being pro-choice is accepting the choices that other people make, and there seem to me to be undertones of you shouldn't have wanted this child in some of her examples.
I think this list is getting at something deeper than that, though, which is the widespread cultural belief that Any Time Is The Right Time For Baby! There is a lot of pressure on women not to have an abortion if they can even halfway see their way to being sort of happy about it, or if they want children someday, then why not now? Very few people don't love their children once they've arrived, but that doesn't mean it was a great idea to continue that particular pregnancy at that particular time. This list is pushing back against the idea that if you're pregnant and relatively sure you could love your own baby (which, again, pretty much everyone does), then you should go ahead and complete the pregnancy, even if it kills you. It kills several of the women on the list. It's not "anti-life" to point that out, since, again, several of the characters die.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [62 favorites]
I think this list is getting at something deeper than that, though, which is the widespread cultural belief that Any Time Is The Right Time For Baby! There is a lot of pressure on women not to have an abortion if they can even halfway see their way to being sort of happy about it, or if they want children someday, then why not now? Very few people don't love their children once they've arrived, but that doesn't mean it was a great idea to continue that particular pregnancy at that particular time. This list is pushing back against the idea that if you're pregnant and relatively sure you could love your own baby (which, again, pretty much everyone does), then you should go ahead and complete the pregnancy, even if it kills you. It kills several of the women on the list. It's not "anti-life" to point that out, since, again, several of the characters die.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [62 favorites]
Heh, chowflap, jinx.
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:13 AM on October 17, 2014
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:13 AM on October 17, 2014
I'm another one not loving this. Some of these make sense but some of these seem to be missing the point and finding new ways to hate on women (fictional though they may be) for making choices they don't approve of.
Yes, having Harry doesn't make sense but as far as Lily Evans knew, she could die at any time so why not squeeze as much life into it as she can? Same thing with Alice Longbottom and Tonks. As for Ginny and Hermione, seeing as how Rowling has yet to mention wizarding universities, they started their adult lives once they left Hogwarts. Alot of people start having kids once they're settled into their careers. Sure, given how spry wizards seem to be into their 50's and 60's and given their long lifespans, they could have waited. But they could also have kids when they're young and then Ginny can go back to playing for the Harpies for another decade while they're in school and Hermione can begin her political career in earnest.
(That said, I do wish Rowling would stop trolling about Harry/Hermione vs. Ron/Hermione as there are much more interesting things about Hermione than the guy she decides to marry.)
As for Katniss? She wanted kids too, she was afraid due to her own life experiences. That's perfectly understandable. While I do feel that that epilogue, like the entire Hunger Games series, had a lot of good ideas told in a very uneven manner, that is canon. Like Lily Potter, she ultimately decided to live while she could. It's a choice that seems to weigh on her despite how happy her children make her.
But what's most interesting to me is that, like the other commenters here, I've spent time talking about the women's choices rather than their male counterparts. Why are Katniss and Lily being judged rather than Peeta and James? Yeah, it's the woman's bodies but I'm sure Panem and the wizarding world have their own versions of male birth control. What's their excuse? Why are the female characters treated as disappointments for having children and the male characters are not? Is this because once women become mothers it's supposed to subsume their entire identities while men still get to people? And because we as a society expect that to happen, we assume it in the absence of all other evidence or even in contradiction of the evidence we do have?
posted by bgal81 at 7:14 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Yes, having Harry doesn't make sense but as far as Lily Evans knew, she could die at any time so why not squeeze as much life into it as she can? Same thing with Alice Longbottom and Tonks. As for Ginny and Hermione, seeing as how Rowling has yet to mention wizarding universities, they started their adult lives once they left Hogwarts. Alot of people start having kids once they're settled into their careers. Sure, given how spry wizards seem to be into their 50's and 60's and given their long lifespans, they could have waited. But they could also have kids when they're young and then Ginny can go back to playing for the Harpies for another decade while they're in school and Hermione can begin her political career in earnest.
(That said, I do wish Rowling would stop trolling about Harry/Hermione vs. Ron/Hermione as there are much more interesting things about Hermione than the guy she decides to marry.)
As for Katniss? She wanted kids too, she was afraid due to her own life experiences. That's perfectly understandable. While I do feel that that epilogue, like the entire Hunger Games series, had a lot of good ideas told in a very uneven manner, that is canon. Like Lily Potter, she ultimately decided to live while she could. It's a choice that seems to weigh on her despite how happy her children make her.
But what's most interesting to me is that, like the other commenters here, I've spent time talking about the women's choices rather than their male counterparts. Why are Katniss and Lily being judged rather than Peeta and James? Yeah, it's the woman's bodies but I'm sure Panem and the wizarding world have their own versions of male birth control. What's their excuse? Why are the female characters treated as disappointments for having children and the male characters are not? Is this because once women become mothers it's supposed to subsume their entire identities while men still get to people? And because we as a society expect that to happen, we assume it in the absence of all other evidence or even in contradiction of the evidence we do have?
posted by bgal81 at 7:14 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
How do we even know that Lily was happy about her pregnancy at that time? We only know that, once she had Harry, she loved him.
posted by jeather at 7:17 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by jeather at 7:17 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
I don't get Padme ending up a farmer's wife and giving up politics. It seems weirdly passive for such a strong character.
I read it as a reference to her marrying the smokin' hot Owen Lars.
posted by muddgirl at 7:18 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
I read it as a reference to her marrying the smokin' hot Owen Lars.
posted by muddgirl at 7:18 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
but I'm sure Panem and the wizarding world have their own versions of male birth control.
Would Panem, though? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't, otherwise, no new Tributes. I don't remember birth control being addressed in Hunger Games, but it's the sort of thing a dictatorship that keeps power by threatening children would be against. Otherwise you risk whole sectors refusing to procreate at all in order to take away your leverage.
posted by emjaybee at 7:19 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
Would Panem, though? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't, otherwise, no new Tributes. I don't remember birth control being addressed in Hunger Games, but it's the sort of thing a dictatorship that keeps power by threatening children would be against. Otherwise you risk whole sectors refusing to procreate at all in order to take away your leverage.
posted by emjaybee at 7:19 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
Catseye: "...had it been "Fictional Characters Whose Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved By Having Babies" I think quite a few of us would have had an issue with that too."Yeah sure, "Fictional Characters Who Feel Their Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved By Having Babies" is pretty tired and gets patronizing really fast, but the logical reversion to this listicle would be "Fictional Characters Whose Lives We Feel Would Have Been Vastly Improved By Having Babies," which is fundamentally different. Besides, most of these are explicitly wanted so perhaps an even more accurate reversion would be: "Fictional Characters Whose Lives We Feel Would Have Been Vastly Improved By Having Babies They're Do Not Want."
Freyja: "Nah man. The reverse narrative exercise is so common as to be a trope: the childless woman (by choice, by accident, by loss or whatever her story may be) daydreaming about the lives that could have been, naming the children, picturing little toddlers running in the fields... How I Met Your Mother had a whole show about Robin's imaginary children."
posted by Blasdelb at 7:22 AM on October 17, 2014
Birth control has existed as long as people have and given that Panem wasn't a dictatorship when Katniss and Peeta had kids, I don't see any good evidence to assume they did not have access to birth control. But if they don't have male birth control, they certainly wouldn't allow abortions which makes this entire conversation moot.
posted by bgal81 at 7:23 AM on October 17, 2014
posted by bgal81 at 7:23 AM on October 17, 2014
The key term in all of those titles is fictional characters. Fictional characters do not want or not want anything, because they are fictional, and everything they do, think, or say is decided upon by an author who makes specific choices that, upon closer inspection, often revolve around completely ridiculous cultural baggage. It is not an affront to personal choice to point that baggage out and find it really, really stupid.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:25 AM on October 17, 2014 [31 favorites]
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:25 AM on October 17, 2014 [31 favorites]
Birth control fails in real life, and many women in real life choose to have abortions after birth control fails. So even if Hermione is taking magical birth control, I don't see why it's unthinkable to imagine that she might want a magical or muggle abortion after such a failure.
posted by muddgirl at 7:26 AM on October 17, 2014
posted by muddgirl at 7:26 AM on October 17, 2014
I am less upset by Padme having the twins than I am by space-laser hyper-advanced technology that can build robot bodies but can't handle a birth without letting the mother die because she felt sad. But then I am also still upset that women on Star Trek had to push out babies instead of just using a transporter to zap the baby out, what the hell, why wouldn't you just do that, c'mon people.
Anyhoodle. There were lots of sad knocked-up women in literature who died during or after birth who would probably have preferred abortion to dying in a poorhouse after being abandoned by Colonel Whatshispants or Lord ImOuttaHere.
posted by emjaybee at 7:26 AM on October 17, 2014 [29 favorites]
Anyhoodle. There were lots of sad knocked-up women in literature who died during or after birth who would probably have preferred abortion to dying in a poorhouse after being abandoned by Colonel Whatshispants or Lord ImOuttaHere.
posted by emjaybee at 7:26 AM on October 17, 2014 [29 favorites]
I don't see why it's unthinkable to imagine that she might want a magical or muggle abortion after such a failure.
Again, why is it on Hermione? Why are we discussing "Fictional Characters Whose Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved If They Had Used a Condom?" What horrible fate befell Hermione once she had children and why didn't Ron do something to stop it?
posted by bgal81 at 7:29 AM on October 17, 2014
Again, why is it on Hermione? Why are we discussing "Fictional Characters Whose Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved If They Had Used a Condom?" What horrible fate befell Hermione once she had children and why didn't Ron do something to stop it?
posted by bgal81 at 7:29 AM on October 17, 2014
When she finally has kids with Peeta it means that she finally trusts that that world is a place where children can grow up safe and happy, not that Peeta wore her down.
My recollection of it was that she was forced into it under similar circumstances as she was with the marriage thing, by President Snow, but I can't figure out who would have done so, since Snow is long dead by then, no?
i have reached a new level of laziness in that i can't even be bothered to open up the ebook and check
posted by poffin boffin at 7:30 AM on October 17, 2014
My recollection of it was that she was forced into it under similar circumstances as she was with the marriage thing, by President Snow, but I can't figure out who would have done so, since Snow is long dead by then, no?
i have reached a new level of laziness in that i can't even be bothered to open up the ebook and check
posted by poffin boffin at 7:30 AM on October 17, 2014
Eve, The Bible: "Fuck this, I'm out of hereth"
posted by Renoroc at 7:31 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by Renoroc at 7:31 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
Haha shit, I meant Lily.
Again, why is it on Hermione?
Is it not on women in real life?
Why are we discussing "Fictional Characters Whose Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved If They Had Used a Condom?" What horrible fate befell Hermione once she had children and why didn't Ron do something to stop it?
I misspoke. The horrible fate that befell Lily was that she died because he kid was the chosen one. At least in Harry Potter the dad dies too, I guess.
posted by muddgirl at 7:31 AM on October 17, 2014
Again, why is it on Hermione?
Is it not on women in real life?
Why are we discussing "Fictional Characters Whose Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved If They Had Used a Condom?" What horrible fate befell Hermione once she had children and why didn't Ron do something to stop it?
I misspoke. The horrible fate that befell Lily was that she died because he kid was the chosen one. At least in Harry Potter the dad dies too, I guess.
posted by muddgirl at 7:31 AM on October 17, 2014
But then I am also still upset that women on Star Trek had to push out babies instead of just using a transporter to zap the baby out, what the hell, why wouldn't you just do that, c'mon people.
Star Trek transporters were an all-or-nothing affair. This was a safety protocol installed after an ill-advised attempt by Kirk one night to transport the Captain's Log.
posted by delfin at 7:32 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
Star Trek transporters were an all-or-nothing affair. This was a safety protocol installed after an ill-advised attempt by Kirk one night to transport the Captain's Log.
posted by delfin at 7:32 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
including many in places where liberalism has gone all the way around the horseshoe to where this is not hypothetical.
The idea that the People's Republic of China represents something a westerner might call "liberalism" taken to excess is as silly as pointing the the "Socialist" in NSDAP and linking Nazis to liberals.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:33 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
The idea that the People's Republic of China represents something a westerner might call "liberalism" taken to excess is as silly as pointing the the "Socialist" in NSDAP and linking Nazis to liberals.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:33 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
Since transporters are shown having biofilters that can selectively screen out viruses and bacteria, I'm pretty sure a Star Trek abortion could simply be scheduled on your beam-up from shore leave.
posted by muddgirl at 7:34 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 7:34 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
But then I am also still upset that women on Star Trek had to push out babies instead of just using a transporter to zap the baby out, what the hell, why wouldn't you just do that, c'mon people.
There was actually a plot point in Voyager (ugh) about fetal transport being used in an emergency and causing a health condition.
I suspect that just like there are people in the Star Trek universe who won't eat replicated food because it's inauthentic, there are also those who choose a natural birth for the same reason.
posted by dhens at 7:35 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
There was actually a plot point in Voyager (ugh) about fetal transport being used in an emergency and causing a health condition.
I suspect that just like there are people in the Star Trek universe who won't eat replicated food because it's inauthentic, there are also those who choose a natural birth for the same reason.
posted by dhens at 7:35 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
why didn't Ron do something to stop it?
Because he's a useless hanger-on, convenient for narrative purposes only and unable to extricate himself from his own messes...? All of his siblings have more personality and agency than he does.
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:35 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Because he's a useless hanger-on, convenient for narrative purposes only and unable to extricate himself from his own messes...? All of his siblings have more personality and agency than he does.
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:35 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
yeah, i said it
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:36 AM on October 17, 2014 [22 favorites]
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:36 AM on October 17, 2014 [22 favorites]
"The idea that the People's Republic of China represents something a westerner might call "liberalism" taken to excess is as silly as pointing the the "Socialist" in NSDAP and linking Nazis to liberals."You can't put that on the Western World, its only in America that "liberalism" means either "ideas that I agree with to the exclusion of ones that I don't" or "ideas that I don't agree with to the exclusion of ones that I do."
posted by Blasdelb at 7:37 AM on October 17, 2014
I suspect that just like there are people in the Star Trek universe who won't eat replicated food because it's inauthentic
look at these fucking space hipsters
posted by poffin boffin at 7:38 AM on October 17, 2014 [35 favorites]
I, too, think that Lily Evans had Harry willingly and happily: not only were she and her husband protected by a charm that theoretically would have been impenetrable by her enemies, save for the betrayal of her Secret-Keeper, but the elder Weasleys talk in the sixth book about how the horrors of wartime led to a lot of young couples starting families in response. What's more, the risk of starting a family during wartime is one of the minor themes of The Deathly Hallows, and Lupin's fears about marriage and fatherhood are addressed directly. That this leads to an orphaned child whose existence mirrors Harry's seems to be a deliberate reinforcement of this theme, which in turn reflects one of the deeper themes of the franchise as a whole: the importance of living life with an awareness of death, but without letting a fear of it turn your entire life into a response to its inevitable end.
In her other works, Rowling addresses a variety of other family-raising dilemmas, so I have no reason not to believe that Harry Potter was anything other than a thought-through, calculated narrative construction. However, that doesn't matter, because one thing Mallory Ortberg is not doing is suggesting that these books would have been better had their characters sought abortions, or even necessarily criticizing the authors for their choices. That's a weird way to read this article.
(The "Hermione dilemma", as I think of it, can be solved if you simply assume that Hermione spent a healthy amount of time seeing other non-Ron men, while Ron matured and learned how to be a bit better of a person once the Ministry's bias against his family subsided, the bigots who shaped his self-perception were silenced, and Ron, with the aid of a useful therapist/some crafty Memory Charms, was able to develop his own identity and self of purpose. After a time, they wound up back together, in a far stabler relationship than could have been achieved without that healthy distance. If you want Hermione to've had even more time on her own, presume that their children are only as old as they are due to a Time-Turner experiment gone tragically wrong — putting a button to the Other Hermione Dilemma at the same time.)
posted by rorgy at 7:39 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
In her other works, Rowling addresses a variety of other family-raising dilemmas, so I have no reason not to believe that Harry Potter was anything other than a thought-through, calculated narrative construction. However, that doesn't matter, because one thing Mallory Ortberg is not doing is suggesting that these books would have been better had their characters sought abortions, or even necessarily criticizing the authors for their choices. That's a weird way to read this article.
(The "Hermione dilemma", as I think of it, can be solved if you simply assume that Hermione spent a healthy amount of time seeing other non-Ron men, while Ron matured and learned how to be a bit better of a person once the Ministry's bias against his family subsided, the bigots who shaped his self-perception were silenced, and Ron, with the aid of a useful therapist/some crafty Memory Charms, was able to develop his own identity and self of purpose. After a time, they wound up back together, in a far stabler relationship than could have been achieved without that healthy distance. If you want Hermione to've had even more time on her own, presume that their children are only as old as they are due to a Time-Turner experiment gone tragically wrong — putting a button to the Other Hermione Dilemma at the same time.)
posted by rorgy at 7:39 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
(Gilmore girls, x files, hunger games). All starting out strong, faltering (so I stopped watching) and then pregnancies that jump the shark.
Katniss doesn't have kids until the epilogue. "It took five, ten, fifteen years for me to agree. But Peeta wanted them so badly. When I first felt her stirring inside of me, I was consumed with a terror that felt as old as life itself. Only the joy of holding her in my arms could tame it. Carrying him was a little easier, but not much."
I agree with Capricorn that When she finally has kids with Peeta it means that she finally trusts that that world is a place where children can grow up safe and happy, not that Peeta wore her down.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:40 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Katniss doesn't have kids until the epilogue. "It took five, ten, fifteen years for me to agree. But Peeta wanted them so badly. When I first felt her stirring inside of me, I was consumed with a terror that felt as old as life itself. Only the joy of holding her in my arms could tame it. Carrying him was a little easier, but not much."
I agree with Capricorn that When she finally has kids with Peeta it means that she finally trusts that that world is a place where children can grow up safe and happy, not that Peeta wore her down.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:40 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
The criticism against Juno and Knocked Up that the movies were bad because the lead characters didn't make the obvious choice to have abortions has always seemed bizarre to me. While not denying that abortion would have been a perfectly legitimate choice in either case, the fact is, both movies would have ended in about 10 minutes if that is the direction they took the plot in. Considering the market for short films is not huge, and thus I doubt that version of either movie would have grossed 231M and 219M respectively (as the long-form ones did), I'd say the characters made the right decisions.
I get that this is just an intellectual exercise, but it is kind of silly. I can think of a lot of characters who would fit onto a "Fictional Characters Who Should Have Stayed Out of the Mob Business" list, but it would be goofy for the same reasons.
posted by The Gooch at 7:41 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
I get that this is just an intellectual exercise, but it is kind of silly. I can think of a lot of characters who would fit onto a "Fictional Characters Who Should Have Stayed Out of the Mob Business" list, but it would be goofy for the same reasons.
posted by The Gooch at 7:41 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Is it not on women in real life?
In real life, I can't Accio the remote when I'm too lazy to get up off the couch. These pregnancies seem to be acting as Rorschach tests for how people feel about sex and childbirth.
The horrible fate that befell Lily was that she died because he kid was the chosen one. At least in Harry Potter the dad dies too, I guess.
Well, the Potters and the Longbottoms also could have been hoping that given that one their children was to be the savior, they would live to see said child vanquish the Dark Lord and then they'd all live happily ever after. Definitely overly optimistic but
Because he's a useless hanger-on, convenient for narrative purposes only and unable to extricate himself from his own messes...? All of his siblings have more personality and agency than he does.
It is so good I am at work because otherwise I would be tl;dring with quotes from the books. As such, I will leave it at this - read the books. If you have, go back and reread. I think you've forgotten a few things, especially from the first few books before Rowling was obviously influenced by the movies. It was Ron who got them through the chessboard, Ron who rescued Harry from the Dursleys, Ron who threw himself between Harry and Werewolf Sirius and Ron, who even though he thought Hermione had chosen Harry over him, went back and risked his life to save Harry. Please.
posted by bgal81 at 7:43 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
In real life, I can't Accio the remote when I'm too lazy to get up off the couch. These pregnancies seem to be acting as Rorschach tests for how people feel about sex and childbirth.
The horrible fate that befell Lily was that she died because he kid was the chosen one. At least in Harry Potter the dad dies too, I guess.
Well, the Potters and the Longbottoms also could have been hoping that given that one their children was to be the savior, they would live to see said child vanquish the Dark Lord and then they'd all live happily ever after. Definitely overly optimistic but
Because he's a useless hanger-on, convenient for narrative purposes only and unable to extricate himself from his own messes...? All of his siblings have more personality and agency than he does.
It is so good I am at work because otherwise I would be tl;dring with quotes from the books. As such, I will leave it at this - read the books. If you have, go back and reread. I think you've forgotten a few things, especially from the first few books before Rowling was obviously influenced by the movies. It was Ron who got them through the chessboard, Ron who rescued Harry from the Dursleys, Ron who threw himself between Harry and Werewolf Sirius and Ron, who even though he thought Hermione had chosen Harry over him, went back and risked his life to save Harry. Please.
posted by bgal81 at 7:43 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
Yeah, Ron is fucking awesome. Step off.
posted by rorgy at 7:44 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by rorgy at 7:44 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
The Weasleys are another odd example, although I think it's handwaved away as Molly having lost her entire family to the Death Eaters and thus was determined to build a new one as huge as possible.
although i wholly admit that might be fanon and not canon, who even knows anymore.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:45 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
although i wholly admit that might be fanon and not canon, who even knows anymore.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:45 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
It really is too bad that the list is muddied up with some spectacularly bad examples that seem to be influenced by some antiquated notions on motherhood and autonomy as the rest of the list does make for a fun intellectual exercise.
The Weasleys are another odd example, although I think it's handwaved away as Molly having lost her entire family to the Death Eaters and thus was determined to build a new one as huge as possible.
I always wondered what happened to Arthur's brothers and parents. We never hear about them. Which could add credence to your theory.
posted by bgal81 at 7:48 AM on October 17, 2014
The Weasleys are another odd example, although I think it's handwaved away as Molly having lost her entire family to the Death Eaters and thus was determined to build a new one as huge as possible.
I always wondered what happened to Arthur's brothers and parents. We never hear about them. Which could add credence to your theory.
posted by bgal81 at 7:48 AM on October 17, 2014
MetaFilter: dying in a poorhouse after being abandoned by Colonel Whatshispants or Lord ImOuttaHere
posted by Madamina at 7:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by Madamina at 7:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
These pregnancies seem to be acting as Rorschach tests for how people feel about sex and childbirth.
Yes, I agree. Narrative fiction uses pregnancies and childbirth partly to explore how society feels about sex, women, and childbirth! Which is why it really shouldn't be offensive for someone to ask, "How is the story different if the character chooses to have an abortion?"
posted by muddgirl at 7:50 AM on October 17, 2014 [25 favorites]
Yes, I agree. Narrative fiction uses pregnancies and childbirth partly to explore how society feels about sex, women, and childbirth! Which is why it really shouldn't be offensive for someone to ask, "How is the story different if the character chooses to have an abortion?"
posted by muddgirl at 7:50 AM on October 17, 2014 [25 favorites]
The Fidelius Charm happened after Harry was born, no? I am trying to remember the timing of the prophecy and cannot.
posted by jeather at 7:51 AM on October 17, 2014
posted by jeather at 7:51 AM on October 17, 2014
I mean we know Molly's brothers, the Prewett's, are both tortured &killed (i think she lost both of them on the same night actually) by Death Eaters, but I'm almost positive I remember Ron saying something about (a) grandparent(s) in actual canon, but I've no idea which set he meant.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:51 AM on October 17, 2014
posted by poffin boffin at 7:51 AM on October 17, 2014
Why are we discussing "Fictional Characters Whose Lives Would Have Been Vastly Improved If They Had Used a Condom?" What horrible fate befell Hermione once she had children and why didn't Ron do something to stop it?
Because the article is about how authors' choices reflect society's attitudes about abortion and motherhood.
posted by Mavri at 7:54 AM on October 17, 2014 [12 favorites]
Because the article is about how authors' choices reflect society's attitudes about abortion and motherhood.
posted by Mavri at 7:54 AM on October 17, 2014 [12 favorites]
Well, the Potters and the Longbottoms also could have been hoping that given that one their children was to be the savior, they would live to see said child vanquish the Dark Lord and then they'd all live happily ever after. Definitely overly optimistic but
My recollection is that Harry is already born at the time of the prophesy, so that would be a different article ("Fictional characters whose lives would have been vastly improved if they committed infanticide" wouldn't have gone over as well, I imagine). Mallory surmises that just being on the run from the Dark Lord is reason enough to say, "Hey, maybe let's wait till a more peaceful moment to have a child." Not that Lily "knew" she would die (well, she couldn't know anything - she's a fictional character.)
posted by muddgirl at 7:56 AM on October 17, 2014
My recollection is that Harry is already born at the time of the prophesy, so that would be a different article ("Fictional characters whose lives would have been vastly improved if they committed infanticide" wouldn't have gone over as well, I imagine). Mallory surmises that just being on the run from the Dark Lord is reason enough to say, "Hey, maybe let's wait till a more peaceful moment to have a child." Not that Lily "knew" she would die (well, she couldn't know anything - she's a fictional character.)
posted by muddgirl at 7:56 AM on October 17, 2014
While not denying that abortion would have been a perfectly legitimate choice in either case, the fact is, both movies would have ended in about 10 minutes if that is the direction they took the plot in.
Well, yeah, so they don't make a movie about that. But what they could have done, and why Knocked Up just sucks so fucking much, is that you'd think, or hope, that they'd show the character at least giving some actual thought to getting an abortion. Instead, I don't think the word abortion is ever even said in the entire movie. It's skirted around once, when the sister says something like "well have you thought about...?" and Katherine Higel is all "a schmabortion? omg, no."
Like, ok, so it's not what the character would have chosen, ok fine. And the movie is about her being pregnant and all of the Seth Rogeny stuff that comes with that, ok fine. But for chrissakes, this is a movie about an adult woman trying to break into her career whose in a pretty tenuous place life-circumstance-wise, and the movie paints abortion as so completely ridiculous an avenue for her that she can't even say the word. A better movie would have shown the character at least considering it.
I didn't like Juno either, but shit at least the choice was presented as something the character could do, and not brushed aside using scared baby words.
posted by phunniemee at 7:57 AM on October 17, 2014 [24 favorites]
Well, yeah, so they don't make a movie about that. But what they could have done, and why Knocked Up just sucks so fucking much, is that you'd think, or hope, that they'd show the character at least giving some actual thought to getting an abortion. Instead, I don't think the word abortion is ever even said in the entire movie. It's skirted around once, when the sister says something like "well have you thought about...?" and Katherine Higel is all "a schmabortion? omg, no."
Like, ok, so it's not what the character would have chosen, ok fine. And the movie is about her being pregnant and all of the Seth Rogeny stuff that comes with that, ok fine. But for chrissakes, this is a movie about an adult woman trying to break into her career whose in a pretty tenuous place life-circumstance-wise, and the movie paints abortion as so completely ridiculous an avenue for her that she can't even say the word. A better movie would have shown the character at least considering it.
I didn't like Juno either, but shit at least the choice was presented as something the character could do, and not brushed aside using scared baby words.
posted by phunniemee at 7:57 AM on October 17, 2014 [24 favorites]
I don't really have anything to offer here other than to say that this thread is awesome, and is just so... Metafilter that I can't even. Keep on keepin' on, people.
posted by brand-gnu at 7:58 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by brand-gnu at 7:58 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Which is why it really shouldn't be offensive for someone to ask, "How is the story different if the character chooses to have an abortion?"
Which is fine but some of these characters who are used for examples don't make much sense. Katniss says she wanted kids but she was afraid given to what had happened to her in the past. I'm guessing that's why she didn't have an abortion. Just a hunch.
Because the article is about how authors' choices reflect society's attitudes about abortion and motherhood.
Well then, the article is shit because it does the same thing society does - placing the burden on (fictional) women. In this case it does it to boost it's internet girl power cred. This is pop Feminism at its most basic and I don't get the appeal.
posted by bgal81 at 7:59 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
Which is fine but some of these characters who are used for examples don't make much sense. Katniss says she wanted kids but she was afraid given to what had happened to her in the past. I'm guessing that's why she didn't have an abortion. Just a hunch.
Because the article is about how authors' choices reflect society's attitudes about abortion and motherhood.
Well then, the article is shit because it does the same thing society does - placing the burden on (fictional) women. In this case it does it to boost it's internet girl power cred. This is pop Feminism at its most basic and I don't get the appeal.
posted by bgal81 at 7:59 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
what about being an accountant, it's boring but you will at least not get shot
Not so fast, says Oscar Wallace.
posted by phunniemee at 8:00 AM on October 17, 2014
Not so fast, says Oscar Wallace.
posted by phunniemee at 8:00 AM on October 17, 2014
I bet there were times in The Road where the dad looked at his kid and wished that he had never been born. Sorry, I tried to come up with a funny one but couldn't.
posted by angrycat at 8:07 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by angrycat at 8:07 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Katniss says she wanted kids but she was afraid given to what had happened to her in the past. I'm guessing that's why she didn't have an abortion.
I haven't read the book, but having an abortion doesn't mean a person will never, ever have children. That's actually addressed in quite a few of the other examples. Maybe Katniss waits until she feels safer and more secure and maybe gets some help with her PTSD.
posted by muddgirl at 8:08 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
I haven't read the book, but having an abortion doesn't mean a person will never, ever have children. That's actually addressed in quite a few of the other examples. Maybe Katniss waits until she feels safer and more secure and maybe gets some help with her PTSD.
posted by muddgirl at 8:08 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
I bet there were times in The Road where the dad looked at his kid and wished that he had never been born.
HOLY SHIT seriously and also every single scene in The Walking Dead where the baby is babying all I can think of is "lori, you ass".
posted by poffin boffin at 8:11 AM on October 17, 2014 [15 favorites]
HOLY SHIT seriously and also every single scene in The Walking Dead where the baby is babying all I can think of is "lori, you ass".
posted by poffin boffin at 8:11 AM on October 17, 2014 [15 favorites]
While we're on the subject, I also hate the Star Trek: TNG episode where the clone planet asks if they can make some clones of the crew so they can prevent their clone civilization from dying off, and Picard and Riker are all like, no, gross, and we're not even going to ask the rest of the crew for volunteers because gross. And I was all like, what, you're not even going to ASK? Even if there's some weird stupid taboo against cloning in the Federation, you're not even going to check with your crew to find out if there's one, ONE weirdo who's all like, "Clones of me running around? Awesome! Down with the anti-clone system, man! And I get to save a world, I'm a hero!" Assholes.
posted by kyrademon at 8:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 8:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Katniss doesn't have kids until the epilogue. "It took five, ten, fifteen years for me to agree. But Peeta wanted them so badly. When I first felt her stirring inside of me, I was consumed with a terror that felt as old as life itself. Only the joy of holding her in my arms could tame it. Carrying him was a little easier, but not much."
OMG I shuddered so hard at this part of the epilogue the first time. I still shudder at this.
Oh, Katniss. Brave Katniss. You deserved so much better than putting yourself through horrible ambivalence for the sake of this fucking dude. You deserved a better ending.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [11 favorites]
OMG I shuddered so hard at this part of the epilogue the first time. I still shudder at this.
Oh, Katniss. Brave Katniss. You deserved so much better than putting yourself through horrible ambivalence for the sake of this fucking dude. You deserved a better ending.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:13 AM on October 17, 2014 [11 favorites]
you're not even going to check with your crew to find out if there's one, ONE weirdo who's all like, "Clones of me running around? Awesome! Down with the anti-clone system, man! And I get to save a world, I'm a hero!"
You know Riker was secretly down with the idea.
posted by drezdn at 8:22 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
You know Riker was secretly down with the idea.
posted by drezdn at 8:22 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
Luca Brasi: Have you considered the vending machine industry?
posted by drezdn at 8:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 8:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
> "The criticism against Juno and Knocked Up that the movies were bad because the lead characters didn't make the obvious choice to have abortions has always seemed bizarre to me."
It's not that they didn't get abortions, it's that neither were presented as having any particularly good *reasons* for not getting an abortion. I am rare on the internet for liking Juno, and I still think that particular subject was dealt with quickly and oddly, and the way Knocked Up handled it was just dumb.
My own mother got pregnant as a teenager and decided to carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption (Hi, half-sister in New England!) But she, you know, actually put some thought into it and had valid reasons for making her decision. She was able to explain those reasons to me in about two sentences when the subject came up, I think maybe the movies could have spared that much time, you know?
posted by kyrademon at 8:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [12 favorites]
It's not that they didn't get abortions, it's that neither were presented as having any particularly good *reasons* for not getting an abortion. I am rare on the internet for liking Juno, and I still think that particular subject was dealt with quickly and oddly, and the way Knocked Up handled it was just dumb.
My own mother got pregnant as a teenager and decided to carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption (Hi, half-sister in New England!) But she, you know, actually put some thought into it and had valid reasons for making her decision. She was able to explain those reasons to me in about two sentences when the subject came up, I think maybe the movies could have spared that much time, you know?
posted by kyrademon at 8:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [12 favorites]
...and if we lived in a world where abortions were as common in movies and TV shows as in real life, I'd find nothing particularly objectionable about one movie where it's presented as an obvious non-option. But that's not the world we live in.
posted by muddgirl at 8:27 AM on October 17, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 8:27 AM on October 17, 2014 [16 favorites]
You know Riker was secretly down with the idea.
After that time Q gave Riker Q Continuum powers, there's actually no way to know whether they were actually revoked or not, and I choose to believe that Riker spends the rest of the series having secret Q powers, so I'm sure he did return to that planet and fill it up with clones and all other manner of weird shit.
posted by Copronymus at 8:29 AM on October 17, 2014 [13 favorites]
After that time Q gave Riker Q Continuum powers, there's actually no way to know whether they were actually revoked or not, and I choose to believe that Riker spends the rest of the series having secret Q powers, so I'm sure he did return to that planet and fill it up with clones and all other manner of weird shit.
posted by Copronymus at 8:29 AM on October 17, 2014 [13 favorites]
Loved this piece, don't give half of a tenth of a shit about men who wring their hands over women (fictional or real) terminating unexpected pregnancies and then going on with their lives like it's NBD. And here's why:
But it isn't, always. I got knocked up at the ripe old age of 21, induced my own miscarriage, and it was not a difficult, complex, or fraught decision in the slightest. It was maybe the easiest decision I've ever made, to be honest. This was a dozen years ago, back in the olden days when state and federal legislatures weren't working overtime to restrict access to birth control and abortion, so the only real stress I felt was related to having The Conversation with my then-boyfriend (pro tip to past self: you don't have to tell him if you don't want to, it's none of his goddamn business). Honestly, the only times I think about it at all are when I see/hear dudes whining about women not being distraught enough about their abortions, and even then, all I feel is a sense of overwhelming gratitude to my past self for making the right call.
"Obvious Child" aside, it's next to impossible for me to find representations of this experience in popular media -- not necessarily being a dumb kid who thinks it's better to start gulping down fistfuls of emmenagogues in the weeks leading up to her PP appointment because she's scared of people wielding sharp things near her junk, but just being a woman who sees her current situation and immediately understands that term pregnancy is fundamentally incompatible with any/all ideas of what she wants her life to look like.
Seriously, most everything you see on TV, in movies, and in books when it comes to unplanned pregnancy is women barely scratching the surface of their thoughts and feelings to find the underlying maternal urge that people (mostly men) assume is a -- if not the -- fundamental essence of womanhood, women inexplicably deciding to drop everything and pair off with the inappropriate and immature douchebags who knocked them up, women sacrificing/sublimating their current paths in life because Babies, and women who only had only claimed to not want children in order to mask their secret, heartfelt longing to experience motherhood. It's a refreshing change of pace to imagine these same fictional women instead choosing to make the decision that about 1/3 of us will make before we hit 45. If that shocks your conscience, I'm not sure what to tell you, but I've got a tiny violin sonata all lined up.
The only thing I didn't like about the piece is the fact that I was only recently introduced to Gilmore Girls via the ongoing FanFare rewatch, so I'm more than slightly crushed to discover Lane's ultimate fate. I'd still like to add Carrie Mathison to the list, though.
posted by divined by radio at 8:37 AM on October 17, 2014 [69 favorites]
...there seems to be this cultural fantasy that, as [Katha] Pollitt puts it, "ill-timed pregnancy" is a bump easily absorbed, a hurdle easily surmounted. It's as if, she writes, "bearing and raising children is something [women] should be ready to do at any moment."Pregnancy, childbirth, and child-rearing are HARD WORK -- the hardest work there is, imo. Media representations (and anti-choice advocates) tend to neatly elide this in favor of a ridiculously tidy, Vaseline-lensed view that paints unplanned pregnancy and subsequent motherhood as something that most every woman can and will go through with at the drop of a hat. The rare fictional woman who is shown thinking about terminating her unplanned pregnancy is almost always painted as totally distraught over the mere prospect of having an abortion; even then, she's all but certain to go on to have the kid anyway. Having a baby is, bizarrely, portrayed as an easier, more obvious, more "natural" choice than getting an abortion, regardless of the circumstance. I guess that's because Having Babies is supposed to be What Women Do, our most inherent function.
But it isn't, always. I got knocked up at the ripe old age of 21, induced my own miscarriage, and it was not a difficult, complex, or fraught decision in the slightest. It was maybe the easiest decision I've ever made, to be honest. This was a dozen years ago, back in the olden days when state and federal legislatures weren't working overtime to restrict access to birth control and abortion, so the only real stress I felt was related to having The Conversation with my then-boyfriend (pro tip to past self: you don't have to tell him if you don't want to, it's none of his goddamn business). Honestly, the only times I think about it at all are when I see/hear dudes whining about women not being distraught enough about their abortions, and even then, all I feel is a sense of overwhelming gratitude to my past self for making the right call.
"Obvious Child" aside, it's next to impossible for me to find representations of this experience in popular media -- not necessarily being a dumb kid who thinks it's better to start gulping down fistfuls of emmenagogues in the weeks leading up to her PP appointment because she's scared of people wielding sharp things near her junk, but just being a woman who sees her current situation and immediately understands that term pregnancy is fundamentally incompatible with any/all ideas of what she wants her life to look like.
Seriously, most everything you see on TV, in movies, and in books when it comes to unplanned pregnancy is women barely scratching the surface of their thoughts and feelings to find the underlying maternal urge that people (mostly men) assume is a -- if not the -- fundamental essence of womanhood, women inexplicably deciding to drop everything and pair off with the inappropriate and immature douchebags who knocked them up, women sacrificing/sublimating their current paths in life because Babies, and women who only had only claimed to not want children in order to mask their secret, heartfelt longing to experience motherhood. It's a refreshing change of pace to imagine these same fictional women instead choosing to make the decision that about 1/3 of us will make before we hit 45. If that shocks your conscience, I'm not sure what to tell you, but I've got a tiny violin sonata all lined up.
The only thing I didn't like about the piece is the fact that I was only recently introduced to Gilmore Girls via the ongoing FanFare rewatch, so I'm more than slightly crushed to discover Lane's ultimate fate. I'd still like to add Carrie Mathison to the list, though.
posted by divined by radio at 8:37 AM on October 17, 2014 [69 favorites]
Greg Nog:
VIRGIL SOLLOZZO:
No! you also get shot
what about being an accountant, it's boring but you will at least not get shot
EMILIO BARZINI:
hey you can probably by now guess what happens to you also
CHASE: I am in this episode!
HOUSE: You most certainly are not. Now watch me take pill.
posted by dr_dank at 8:38 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
VIRGIL SOLLOZZO:
No! you also get shot
what about being an accountant, it's boring but you will at least not get shot
EMILIO BARZINI:
hey you can probably by now guess what happens to you also
CHASE: I am in this episode!
HOUSE: You most certainly are not. Now watch me take pill.
posted by dr_dank at 8:38 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Why is this thought experiment so upsetting and threatening to some people?
It's not that I find it 'upsetting and threatening' and am being dishonest about my reasons why (seriously?). It's that I find it bothersome in some of the assumptions it's working from.
I suppose the clincher is where you see this as overlapping with real world issues, and to an extent which real-world issues you see it as overlapping with. It is totally legitimate to say "well these are fictional characters so there's no link to the real world worth discussing here", if you want to, but that doesn't mean anyone who takes a different approach is wrong.
So if you see the relevant real-world issue here as solely about abortion, then I can see why you might assume that scenarios of characters getting abortions and being happier for it is an obvious good thing, and anyone in this thread disliking the piece has some pro-life dark agenda. But, if you see it in terms of reproductive freedom more broadly it can look a bit different, because then scenarios in which we have no reason to assume the canonical pregnancy wasn't wanted and actively chosen look less like "yay, access to abortion!" and more like "yay, characters making a more sensible decision than they did in canon by choosing to have an abortion!"
And you can feel however you feel about whether, say, Katniss would have been better advised to abort than continue a pregnancy, because it's not like she's going to care. But presenting women's choices - even fictional women's choices - to continue with pregnancies in non-optimal circumstances as a bad idea bleeds over into some less fictional real-world ideas/assumptions/cultural attitudes which aren't in favour of real reproductive freedom, although they might superficially sound like it, in terms of who should/shouldn't be having kids. That doesn't necessarily mean sending enforcement squads round to people's houses; it can mean things like budget cuts for programs for poorer families, reflecting a cultural attitude of "well you shouldn't have children if you can't afford [a middle-class lifestyle for] them."
Hetty Sorrel would probably have jumped at the chance of a safe, legal, non-stigmatised abortion. Mrs Bennet, though? There's no reason to think she would, and all we've really got is, well. Problem: deeply sexist society which puts you in bad and stressful position when you have lots of daughters and no sons; solution: stop having lots of daughters. Yeah it's a solution, but not quite the one I'd want if I'm dreaming up fictional happier endings.
posted by Catseye at 8:41 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
It's not that I find it 'upsetting and threatening' and am being dishonest about my reasons why (seriously?). It's that I find it bothersome in some of the assumptions it's working from.
I suppose the clincher is where you see this as overlapping with real world issues, and to an extent which real-world issues you see it as overlapping with. It is totally legitimate to say "well these are fictional characters so there's no link to the real world worth discussing here", if you want to, but that doesn't mean anyone who takes a different approach is wrong.
So if you see the relevant real-world issue here as solely about abortion, then I can see why you might assume that scenarios of characters getting abortions and being happier for it is an obvious good thing, and anyone in this thread disliking the piece has some pro-life dark agenda. But, if you see it in terms of reproductive freedom more broadly it can look a bit different, because then scenarios in which we have no reason to assume the canonical pregnancy wasn't wanted and actively chosen look less like "yay, access to abortion!" and more like "yay, characters making a more sensible decision than they did in canon by choosing to have an abortion!"
And you can feel however you feel about whether, say, Katniss would have been better advised to abort than continue a pregnancy, because it's not like she's going to care. But presenting women's choices - even fictional women's choices - to continue with pregnancies in non-optimal circumstances as a bad idea bleeds over into some less fictional real-world ideas/assumptions/cultural attitudes which aren't in favour of real reproductive freedom, although they might superficially sound like it, in terms of who should/shouldn't be having kids. That doesn't necessarily mean sending enforcement squads round to people's houses; it can mean things like budget cuts for programs for poorer families, reflecting a cultural attitude of "well you shouldn't have children if you can't afford [a middle-class lifestyle for] them."
Hetty Sorrel would probably have jumped at the chance of a safe, legal, non-stigmatised abortion. Mrs Bennet, though? There's no reason to think she would, and all we've really got is, well. Problem: deeply sexist society which puts you in bad and stressful position when you have lots of daughters and no sons; solution: stop having lots of daughters. Yeah it's a solution, but not quite the one I'd want if I'm dreaming up fictional happier endings.
posted by Catseye at 8:41 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
Seriously, most everything you see on TV, in movies, and in books when it comes to unplanned pregnancy is women barely scratching the surface of their thoughts and feelings...[etc]
Shoutout to Six Feet Under and Claire Fisher who treated this pretty well, I thought.
posted by phunniemee at 8:41 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
Shoutout to Six Feet Under and Claire Fisher who treated this pretty well, I thought.
posted by phunniemee at 8:41 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
VIRGIL SOLLOZZO:
No! you also get shot
what about being an accountant, it's boring but you will at least not get shot
EMILIO BARZINI:
hey you can probably by now guess what happens to you also
Speaking of characters whose lives would have been improved, if Kay Corleone had had "an abortion, Michael!" two kids earlier, she likely would have moved on, found a nice Protestant boy, and spent her days volunteering for the League of Women Voters.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:45 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
No! you also get shot
what about being an accountant, it's boring but you will at least not get shot
EMILIO BARZINI:
hey you can probably by now guess what happens to you also
Speaking of characters whose lives would have been improved, if Kay Corleone had had "an abortion, Michael!" two kids earlier, she likely would have moved on, found a nice Protestant boy, and spent her days volunteering for the League of Women Voters.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:45 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
How Gilmore Girls treated Lane Kim always bothered me. But what bothered me more is that no one -- not even Rory -- even made any sort of reference to abortion in that situation. Not even in a "I know you wouldn't consider it but ..." I don't think Lane would've gotten an abortion (after all, she waited until she was married to have sex), really, but the fact that the show seems to take place in some kind of world where abortion doesn't exist just seems bizarre to me.
And yeah, as others have mentioned, too many times, when writers don't know what else to do with their women characters, they just have them get pregnant! It's such a weird plot device.
posted by darksong at 8:47 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
And yeah, as others have mentioned, too many times, when writers don't know what else to do with their women characters, they just have them get pregnant! It's such a weird plot device.
posted by darksong at 8:47 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
because then scenarios in which we have no reason to assume the canonical pregnancy wasn't wanted and actively chosen look less like "yay, access to abortion!" and more like "yay, characters making a more sensible decision than they did in canon by choosing to have an abortion!"
But it's not really a question of whether the characters "wanted" the pregnancy or not. The author can make the characters want or not want, choose or not choose, anything the author desires. Characters have no separate agency that can be violated.
So Mallory is asking, "What if the author made them choose different?" Which happens so rarely in fiction that I can name the exact three examples I've seen - Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Obvious Child, and Six Feet Under.
Mrs Bennet, though? There's no reason to think she would
There's no reason to think she wouldn't either (abortion and abortifactants did exist in the 1790s). Why is carrying the pregnancy to term the default and any variance from that must be explained away?
posted by muddgirl at 8:47 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
But it's not really a question of whether the characters "wanted" the pregnancy or not. The author can make the characters want or not want, choose or not choose, anything the author desires. Characters have no separate agency that can be violated.
So Mallory is asking, "What if the author made them choose different?" Which happens so rarely in fiction that I can name the exact three examples I've seen - Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Obvious Child, and Six Feet Under.
Mrs Bennet, though? There's no reason to think she would
There's no reason to think she wouldn't either (abortion and abortifactants did exist in the 1790s). Why is carrying the pregnancy to term the default and any variance from that must be explained away?
posted by muddgirl at 8:47 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
Oh God, though, if we're going to talk about the "an abortion? oh of course not now let us never speak of this possibility again, or even at all" trope in media, can I hold a special little hate-flag high for the Convenient Miscarriage Which Takes The Choice Out Of Her Hands trope? Gaaaaaah.
posted by Catseye at 8:48 AM on October 17, 2014 [28 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 8:48 AM on October 17, 2014 [28 favorites]
Why is carrying the pregnancy to term the default and any variance from that must be explained away?
Because she did carry the pregnancy to term, and does not give any textual suggestion of wishing she had done otherwise?
posted by Catseye at 8:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Because she did carry the pregnancy to term, and does not give any textual suggestion of wishing she had done otherwise?
posted by Catseye at 8:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
1. Giant bugs eat every Earthling, including Theresa Wiggin.
2. Alice Mitchell and her friend Thelma leave their drinks on the table and head for the dance floor as the music pumps and the disco ball flickers.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:51 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
2. Alice Mitchell and her friend Thelma leave their drinks on the table and head for the dance floor as the music pumps and the disco ball flickers.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:51 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Because she did carry the pregnancy to term, and does not give any textual suggestion of wishing she had done otherwise?
Mallory isn't suggesting that some actual, historical Mr. and Mrs. Bennet go back in time and choose to stop after three children, you know. She's writing what in fan fiction circles is called an AU.
posted by muddgirl at 8:53 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
Mallory isn't suggesting that some actual, historical Mr. and Mrs. Bennet go back in time and choose to stop after three children, you know. She's writing what in fan fiction circles is called an AU.
posted by muddgirl at 8:53 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
And even in the context of the story, it's pretty clear that the Bennets desperately wanted a son, not five daughters, so it doesn't even seem far-fetched to posit that if they had the technology to... not have daughters, they might have taken it.
posted by muddgirl at 8:55 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 8:55 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Mallory isn't suggesting that some actual, historical Mr. and Mrs. Bennet go back in time and choose to stop after three children, you know. She's writing what in fan fiction circles
Well gosh, thanks for clearing that up for me. For a moment there I was really worried.
Look, I get the sense that you're arguing against a position I am not actually taking, but I am unsure on what that position is or how we can have a constructive conversation about it given that. Do you think I'm annoyed about abortion being suggested as a viable, positive option or something? Because that is really not where I'm coming from.
posted by Catseye at 8:56 AM on October 17, 2014
Well gosh, thanks for clearing that up for me. For a moment there I was really worried.
Look, I get the sense that you're arguing against a position I am not actually taking, but I am unsure on what that position is or how we can have a constructive conversation about it given that. Do you think I'm annoyed about abortion being suggested as a viable, positive option or something? Because that is really not where I'm coming from.
posted by Catseye at 8:56 AM on October 17, 2014
1. Emma Bovary, underwhelmed by the sleepy charms of Yonville, becomes pregnant with Berthe but has an abortion. She then runs off to Paris with Leon, who quickly grows bored of her. However, Emma remains in Paris as the mistress of several men, hosting an occasional salon not particularly known for its wit, and living on the bottom tier of high society. She finds it glamorous.
posted by Aubergine at 8:57 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by Aubergine at 8:57 AM on October 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
Instead, I don't think the word abortion is ever even said in the entire movie. It's skirted around once, when the sister says something like "well have you thought about...?" and Katherine Higel is all "a schmabortion? omg, no."
For accuracies sake, the abortion choice was presented in the scene where the Katherine Heigl character has lunch with her mother, who suggests she get the situation "taken care of", like some other relative of theirs had when faced with the same dilemna. Her mother's smugness appears to seal her decision. Not suggesting that this was necessarily the best, most convincing way to present the abortion option, just wanting to point out that it was fairly openly on the table, she just decides to make a different choice.
posted by The Gooch at 8:57 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
For accuracies sake, the abortion choice was presented in the scene where the Katherine Heigl character has lunch with her mother, who suggests she get the situation "taken care of", like some other relative of theirs had when faced with the same dilemna. Her mother's smugness appears to seal her decision. Not suggesting that this was necessarily the best, most convincing way to present the abortion option, just wanting to point out that it was fairly openly on the table, she just decides to make a different choice.
posted by The Gooch at 8:57 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Her mother's smugness appears to seal her decision.
Oh good, it's a spite baby.
Those are the best babies.
posted by phunniemee at 9:01 AM on October 17, 2014 [41 favorites]
Oh good, it's a spite baby.
Those are the best babies.
posted by phunniemee at 9:01 AM on October 17, 2014 [41 favorites]
Catseye, you seem to be arguing that Mrs. Bennet would never get an abortion, and that it's wrong to imagine a situation where she does, and I can't figure out what you're basing that on. I'm sure Jane Austen would never openly put an abortion in her novels (not cheeky enough), but it doesn't seem out there to imagine a woman in Mrs. Bennet's situation deciding "instead of continuing to try for a son, let's just stop now."
If that's not what you're arguing, then I confess I have no clue.
posted by muddgirl at 9:03 AM on October 17, 2014
If that's not what you're arguing, then I confess I have no clue.
posted by muddgirl at 9:03 AM on October 17, 2014
The Tess one actually doesn't make sense. Tess isn't abandoned by that shitheel Angel Clare because she had a child--she's abandoned by him because she's not a virgin. An abortion, by itself, would have made precisely zero difference to the trajectory of her story.
posted by yoink at 9:08 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by yoink at 9:08 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
The whole purpose of these fictional characters is to have unimproved lives.
The author needs to think inside the box a bit more.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:14 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
The author needs to think inside the box a bit more.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:14 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Mallory isn't suggesting that
Guys, Mallory isn't suggesting anything. This is not a listicle, an article, fan fiction, even an earnest thought experiment.
See also: The Biggest Problem Facing Feminism Today, by Mallory Ortberg.
posted by kitcat at 9:17 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Guys, Mallory isn't suggesting anything. This is not a listicle, an article, fan fiction, even an earnest thought experiment.
See also: The Biggest Problem Facing Feminism Today, by Mallory Ortberg.
posted by kitcat at 9:17 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Having babies biologically at all seems like a strech in the ST universe. Surely they must have artificial gestation in 300 years.
While there are likely some back-to-nature fundamentalists who still do it biologically, I'd bet most federation citizens pop a zygote in a can and get a baby in 9 months. I would further doubt that the biological sex of either parent matters very much to the process.
posted by bonehead at 9:19 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
While there are likely some back-to-nature fundamentalists who still do it biologically, I'd bet most federation citizens pop a zygote in a can and get a baby in 9 months. I would further doubt that the biological sex of either parent matters very much to the process.
posted by bonehead at 9:19 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
Catseye, you seem to be arguing that Mrs. Bennet would never get an abortion, and that it's wrong to imagine a situation where she does
No, Catseye is saying that imagining a world in which everyone has free and unstigmatized access to abortion is not the same thing as imagining a world in which abortion is always the best and only alternative if having a baby presents you with some financial challenges.
Catseye is saying that there's something rather creepy about looking at the situation of someone who has a few financial anxieties because of the number of children they're raising and saying "jeez, those people should obviously have started having abortions after child #N" because it implies some rather unpleasant real-world attitudes towards poorer people's right to procreate.
That, at least, seems to me the pretty obvious and commonsensical understanding of Catseye's point.
posted by yoink at 9:20 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
No, Catseye is saying that imagining a world in which everyone has free and unstigmatized access to abortion is not the same thing as imagining a world in which abortion is always the best and only alternative if having a baby presents you with some financial challenges.
Catseye is saying that there's something rather creepy about looking at the situation of someone who has a few financial anxieties because of the number of children they're raising and saying "jeez, those people should obviously have started having abortions after child #N" because it implies some rather unpleasant real-world attitudes towards poorer people's right to procreate.
That, at least, seems to me the pretty obvious and commonsensical understanding of Catseye's point.
posted by yoink at 9:20 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
is not the same thing as imagining a world in which abortion is always the best and only alternative if having a baby presents you with some financial challenges.
I think this is a really uncharitable reading of Mallory's intentions. I don't see anywhere that talks about abortion being anyone's best and only option in any of these situations.
because it implies some rather unpleasant real-world attitudes towards poorer people's right to procreate.
The Bennett's not poor, though! Not by a long stretch. They're landed gentry from a respectable family - upper middle class at worst.
posted by muddgirl at 9:29 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
I think this is a really uncharitable reading of Mallory's intentions. I don't see anywhere that talks about abortion being anyone's best and only option in any of these situations.
because it implies some rather unpleasant real-world attitudes towards poorer people's right to procreate.
The Bennett's not poor, though! Not by a long stretch. They're landed gentry from a respectable family - upper middle class at worst.
posted by muddgirl at 9:29 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
toast.metafilter.com, get pb on it, STAT.
I enjoy The Toast and Mallory tremendously, but some days the blue appears to be becoming this on its own.
Heh. I only noticed this morning that this post was also a Toast post, so that's two in a row.
posted by homunculus at 9:38 AM on October 17, 2014
I enjoy The Toast and Mallory tremendously, but some days the blue appears to be becoming this on its own.
Heh. I only noticed this morning that this post was also a Toast post, so that's two in a row.
posted by homunculus at 9:38 AM on October 17, 2014
They're landed gentry from a respectable family - upper middle class at worst.
Landed gentry w/land that has been entailed away to a random cousin is NOT upper middle class in the Regency period.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:39 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
Landed gentry w/land that has been entailed away to a random cousin is NOT upper middle class in the Regency period.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:39 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
An old friend of mine got a girl pregnant on his first time. Not quite the same, I know, still...Bad damned luck. Nope, bad planning. Okay, or lack of education.
posted by theora55 at 9:41 AM on October 17, 2014
posted by theora55 at 9:41 AM on October 17, 2014
---> Pregnant the first time. Hi, Space Kitten!
posted by Space Kitty at 9:44 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 9:44 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
I don't see anywhere that talks about abortion being anyone's best and only option in any of these situations.
No, but it is the one that 'vastly improve[s] their lives', so.
The Bennett's not poor, though! Not by a long stretch.
If you think the Bennets are the poor people I'm talking about, we're clearly missing each other by such a vast distance that I don't even know where to start putting it right, honestly.
posted by Catseye at 9:44 AM on October 17, 2014
No, but it is the one that 'vastly improve[s] their lives', so.
The Bennett's not poor, though! Not by a long stretch.
If you think the Bennets are the poor people I'm talking about, we're clearly missing each other by such a vast distance that I don't even know where to start putting it right, honestly.
posted by Catseye at 9:44 AM on October 17, 2014
Yes, the daughters could end up as governesses after their father's death, which was why it was so important to marry them off as well as possible, to secure their futures and their mother's position in society. This was about keeping the girls in an upper-class situation, not about keeping the girls out of the poor house (except maybe Lydia, through her own thoughtlessness more than anything). Marrying off two or three girls well certainly seems easier than marrying off 5.
Yes, it's a fucked up society. That's addressed in the book quite well, I think. I don't know why Mallory would need to address it any further than that.
posted by muddgirl at 9:45 AM on October 17, 2014
Yes, it's a fucked up society. That's addressed in the book quite well, I think. I don't know why Mallory would need to address it any further than that.
posted by muddgirl at 9:45 AM on October 17, 2014
I'd be more concerned about the belittling way Mr. Bennett treats Mrs. Bennett and how he bonds with their children at her expense and treats her as an utter embarrassment whilst blatantly favouring Lizzie and publicly demeans the rest of their children* as factors in Mrs. B's hypothetical decision, but YMMV.
Like, a lot of stuff can work out if the parents in question respect each other enough to communicate about anything, let alone the big stuff. That is not the case in the Bennett household. Mr. Bennett pokes Mrs. Bennett with a stick and watches her fall apart as though she can convince herself to take it less seriously without any help whatsoever. Mrs. Bennett attempts to convince Mr. Bennett at length and clumsy vapours that he should take her concerns more seriously and watches the children take sides as though she has any real influence at all.
It is not a relationship model that can take a lot of strain, let alone five children's worth of strain. So, yes, I think Mrs. Bennet's life would have improved quite a bit.
*particularly recalling Mary here, though I think there was a bit about Kitty and Lydia as well. Will try to lay hands on a copy in the morning.
posted by E. Whitehall at 9:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Like, a lot of stuff can work out if the parents in question respect each other enough to communicate about anything, let alone the big stuff. That is not the case in the Bennett household. Mr. Bennett pokes Mrs. Bennett with a stick and watches her fall apart as though she can convince herself to take it less seriously without any help whatsoever. Mrs. Bennett attempts to convince Mr. Bennett at length and clumsy vapours that he should take her concerns more seriously and watches the children take sides as though she has any real influence at all.
It is not a relationship model that can take a lot of strain, let alone five children's worth of strain. So, yes, I think Mrs. Bennet's life would have improved quite a bit.
*particularly recalling Mary here, though I think there was a bit about Kitty and Lydia as well. Will try to lay hands on a copy in the morning.
posted by E. Whitehall at 9:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
If you think the Bennets are the poor people I'm talking about, we're clearly missing each other by such a vast distance that I don't even know where to start putting it right, honestly.
If the Bennetts aren't the people you are talking about, then maybe it would be helpful to indicate who you are talking about? Because clearly I'm missing your point by a wide margin.
posted by muddgirl at 9:49 AM on October 17, 2014
If the Bennetts aren't the people you are talking about, then maybe it would be helpful to indicate who you are talking about? Because clearly I'm missing your point by a wide margin.
posted by muddgirl at 9:49 AM on October 17, 2014
Although I think you could make a fair case that Mrs Bennet did have an abortion at some point, because 5 children in 20--odd years isn't a lot for an 18th-century family, especially when it goes girl-girl-girl-girl-girl-STOP.
I work on 18th century medical stuff for a living at the moment and there were a lot of women and teenage girls taking pennyroyal to return their menses to its normal course, as it's usually phrased. 18th-century manuals giving advice to mothers sometimes explicitly address (and condemn) aboration, and women's allegedly selfish reasons for choosing it.
posted by Catseye at 9:53 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
I work on 18th century medical stuff for a living at the moment and there were a lot of women and teenage girls taking pennyroyal to return their menses to its normal course, as it's usually phrased. 18th-century manuals giving advice to mothers sometimes explicitly address (and condemn) aboration, and women's allegedly selfish reasons for choosing it.
posted by Catseye at 9:53 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
In Hardy and Hawthorne, at least, pregnancy is pretty much a punishment for being sexual, whether the sex is consensual or not. In contemporary US politics, same thing.
posted by theora55 at 9:55 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 9:55 AM on October 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
If I say that someone's life would have been better if they hadn't gone to the bank last Wednesday, because then they wouldn't have gotten shot by the bank robber, I'm not saying that they made a bad choice by going to the bank or that they should have viewed staying home as their best and only option. That's how I'm reading the whole "their lives would have been better" aspect of this; not as a judgment on the choice the character made, but as a thought experiment about what would have happened had the character made a different choice.
But because so much discussion about abortion happens in the context of criticizing women's choices, I can understand why some are reading it through that lens.
posted by heisenberg at 9:56 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
But because so much discussion about abortion happens in the context of criticizing women's choices, I can understand why some are reading it through that lens.
posted by heisenberg at 9:56 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
This article and the attendant discussion of motherhood in English-language literature* remind me of a novel I started reading because it was in the sitting room of a hotel in northern England. It stars an ugly woman in the eighteenth or nineteenth century who really wants her own "bairn" and evidently needs a guy in order to get one. I logicked from context that a "bairn" was probably a child? but possibly a building you store farm stuff in. But probably a child. I never finished the book but I hope she got what she wanted.
* in the Mahabharata, Kunti and Madri can get offspring by saying a mantra to a particular god, and then BOOM, baby, no gestation period required, plus your kid is half-god. Together they are: the Pandavas!** Then again there's also the bit where a woman births a big ol' lump of flesh and then breaks it into a thousand sub-lumps, each of which gestates in a ceramic jar with some ghee for a while. And that's how the Kauravas get born! So basically sometimes these childbearing decisions get complicated in Indian myth.
** except for Karna who's born to Kunti when she's just testing out the mantra, you know, to check whether it works, but then shit, she has a baby on her hands she was not planning on, so she abandons him and a family of charioteers brings him up, and then he ends up on the Kaurava side, and if I go on much longer I am basically going to re-create my 11th grade essay comparing and contrasting Karna with Jay Gatsby
posted by brainwane at 10:06 AM on October 17, 2014 [12 favorites]
* in the Mahabharata, Kunti and Madri can get offspring by saying a mantra to a particular god, and then BOOM, baby, no gestation period required, plus your kid is half-god. Together they are: the Pandavas!** Then again there's also the bit where a woman births a big ol' lump of flesh and then breaks it into a thousand sub-lumps, each of which gestates in a ceramic jar with some ghee for a while. And that's how the Kauravas get born! So basically sometimes these childbearing decisions get complicated in Indian myth.
** except for Karna who's born to Kunti when she's just testing out the mantra, you know, to check whether it works, but then shit, she has a baby on her hands she was not planning on, so she abandons him and a family of charioteers brings him up, and then he ends up on the Kaurava side, and if I go on much longer I am basically going to re-create my 11th grade essay comparing and contrasting Karna with Jay Gatsby
posted by brainwane at 10:06 AM on October 17, 2014 [12 favorites]
If the Bennetts aren't the people you are talking about, then maybe it would be helpful to indicate who you are talking about?
Well, this is the bit where I mention poor people:
you can feel however you feel about whether, say, Katniss would have been better advised to abort than continue a pregnancy, because it's not like she's going to care. But presenting women's choices - even fictional women's choices - to continue with pregnancies in non-optimal circumstances as a bad idea bleeds over into some less fictional real-world ideas/assumptions/cultural attitudes which aren't in favour of real reproductive freedom, although they might superficially sound like it, in terms of who should/shouldn't be having kids. That doesn't necessarily mean sending enforcement squads round to people's houses; it can mean things like budget cuts for programs for poorer families, reflecting a cultural attitude of "well you shouldn't have children if you can't afford [a middle-class lifestyle for] them."
I honestly am not sure how what you got from that is "the Bennets are poor"?
posted by Catseye at 10:17 AM on October 17, 2014
Well, this is the bit where I mention poor people:
you can feel however you feel about whether, say, Katniss would have been better advised to abort than continue a pregnancy, because it's not like she's going to care. But presenting women's choices - even fictional women's choices - to continue with pregnancies in non-optimal circumstances as a bad idea bleeds over into some less fictional real-world ideas/assumptions/cultural attitudes which aren't in favour of real reproductive freedom, although they might superficially sound like it, in terms of who should/shouldn't be having kids. That doesn't necessarily mean sending enforcement squads round to people's houses; it can mean things like budget cuts for programs for poorer families, reflecting a cultural attitude of "well you shouldn't have children if you can't afford [a middle-class lifestyle for] them."
I honestly am not sure how what you got from that is "the Bennets are poor"?
posted by Catseye at 10:17 AM on October 17, 2014
The rare fictional woman who is shown thinking about terminating her unplanned pregnancy is almost always painted as totally distraught
It's like when cell phones first spread everywhere and the people doing horror movies realized their plots wouldn't work any more. "Wait, they'd just call the cops/a cab/each other and be totally fine." So they come up with a halfassed reason for there to be no reception. The 'abortion is unthinkable' trope fixes the related problem for unplanned pregnancy movies.
Also I know the article focuses on women but that dude from Alien should really be on the list too.
posted by echo target at 10:21 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
It's like when cell phones first spread everywhere and the people doing horror movies realized their plots wouldn't work any more. "Wait, they'd just call the cops/a cab/each other and be totally fine." So they come up with a halfassed reason for there to be no reception. The 'abortion is unthinkable' trope fixes the related problem for unplanned pregnancy movies.
Also I know the article focuses on women but that dude from Alien should really be on the list too.
posted by echo target at 10:21 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
as a thought experiment about what would have happened had the character made a different choice
posted by heisenberg at 5:56 PM
The characters have in fact simultaneously made (and suffered the consequences of) both choices, and it's not until the writer sets pen to paper that the situation collapses into a single plotline.
posted by emilyw at 10:25 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by heisenberg at 5:56 PM
The characters have in fact simultaneously made (and suffered the consequences of) both choices, and it's not until the writer sets pen to paper that the situation collapses into a single plotline.
posted by emilyw at 10:25 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
You know Riker was secretly down with the idea.
Hell, you know that Riker would go into the holodeck late at night, generate a whole bunch of holorikers, and then make a big sweaty naked writhing pile of unnnnf.
Screw Padme, what about Shmi Skywalker? If I get pregnant from the fucking air, my first thought is probably not going to be immaculate conception; it's going to be more along the lines of "alien facehugger".
I'm pretty sure* that she was raped by Palpatine, who did sith juju to find the Woman With The Biggest Midichlorians In The Galaxy, and then force-no-tized afterwards to make her forget.
*Based on nothing
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:28 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Hell, you know that Riker would go into the holodeck late at night, generate a whole bunch of holorikers, and then make a big sweaty naked writhing pile of unnnnf.
Screw Padme, what about Shmi Skywalker? If I get pregnant from the fucking air, my first thought is probably not going to be immaculate conception; it's going to be more along the lines of "alien facehugger".
I'm pretty sure* that she was raped by Palpatine, who did sith juju to find the Woman With The Biggest Midichlorians In The Galaxy, and then force-no-tized afterwards to make her forget.
*Based on nothing
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:28 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Bairn is the word for child in Scottish English and Northern English dialects - it's related to the Swedish word for child Barn (there's one narrative of the development of English, which Languagehat will probably slap me about for propogating, that it was for a while a battle between the German of the Anglo-Saxons in the south and the Scandivavian of the Vikings in the north and east, until the French invaded and subjugated everybody and named all the meat). There are a number of words in Scottish which are phonetically very similar to Swedish, as I found out from watching Akte Människor.
posted by Grangousier at 10:29 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 10:29 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
The mental image of a sweaty naked writhing pile of holorikers is going to haunt me in my dreams.
posted by Catseye at 10:37 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 10:37 AM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Grangousier I wish you had also been in that sitting room so we could have talked about words while I was waiting for my friend.
posted by brainwane at 10:45 AM on October 17, 2014
posted by brainwane at 10:45 AM on October 17, 2014
so I'm sure he did return to that planet and fill it up with clones and all other manner of weird shit.
Nah, they took care of their problem by mating with the Space Irish from the next planet over. A few generations of that, you don't need clones. Though I'm sure Riker was always down for more loving from Space Irish lasses.
/derail
Come to think of it, I think Keiko O'Brien didn't regret her kids, but she sure deserved a husband who actually seemed to like her. She should have taken her cute kids and booked and left him to Julian.
posted by emjaybee at 10:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
Nah, they took care of their problem by mating with the Space Irish from the next planet over. A few generations of that, you don't need clones. Though I'm sure Riker was always down for more loving from Space Irish lasses.
/derail
Come to think of it, I think Keiko O'Brien didn't regret her kids, but she sure deserved a husband who actually seemed to like her. She should have taken her cute kids and booked and left him to Julian.
posted by emjaybee at 10:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
I honestly am not sure how what you got from that is "the Bennets are poor"?
I got it because you responded to a comment where I was talking about Mrs. Bennett with this; then when I responded to that, you stated that I was misunderstanding your argument; then when I asked you to restate your argument, it was about how poor people should have a full complement of family support (which I obviously agree with, and I think most pro-choice people agree with, including Mallory). So now maybe I should just bow out of this conversation and get back to talking about transporter abortions.
posted by muddgirl at 10:51 AM on October 17, 2014
I got it because you responded to a comment where I was talking about Mrs. Bennett with this; then when I responded to that, you stated that I was misunderstanding your argument; then when I asked you to restate your argument, it was about how poor people should have a full complement of family support (which I obviously agree with, and I think most pro-choice people agree with, including Mallory). So now maybe I should just bow out of this conversation and get back to talking about transporter abortions.
posted by muddgirl at 10:51 AM on October 17, 2014
Hell, you know that Riker would go into the holodeck late at night, generate a whole bunch of holorikers, and then make a big sweaty naked writhing pile of unnnnf.
there is not enough brain bleach in the world
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:01 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
there is not enough brain bleach in the world
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:01 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
Hell, you know that Riker would go into the holodeck late at night, generate a whole bunch of holorikers, and then make a big sweaty naked writhing pile of unnnnf.
So that's why he does that weird chair thing.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:31 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
So that's why he does that weird chair thing.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:31 AM on October 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
Oh ewwwwwww.
posted by mochapickle at 11:48 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by mochapickle at 11:48 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
every single scene in The Walking Dead where the baby is babying all I can think of is "lori, you ass"
OMFG yes. Every possible reason to choose option A, no reasons whatsoever to choose option B, she's actually given the choice, and she goes with option B. WTF.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:53 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
OMFG yes. Every possible reason to choose option A, no reasons whatsoever to choose option B, she's actually given the choice, and she goes with option B. WTF.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:53 AM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
I think that Claire would have gone back to Jamie even if Brianna hadn't happened.
The big HP question is when does James Potter stop behaving like a shit?
posted by brujita at 11:55 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
The big HP question is when does James Potter stop behaving like a shit?
posted by brujita at 11:55 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
omg outlander spoilerzzz
posted by poffin boffin at 12:08 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 12:08 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
The mental image of a sweaty naked writhing pile of holorikers is going to haunt me in my dreams.
I feel sort of ashamed that I'm into it.
But not ashamed enough to stop being into it.
posted by palomar at 12:55 PM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
I feel sort of ashamed that I'm into it.
But not ashamed enough to stop being into it.
posted by palomar at 12:55 PM on October 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
1. LUCA BRASI sleeps with a wubbie
2. My husband watches Walking Dead with a very different eye now that we have a baby. "I just keep thinking, 'She's so DIRTY!'"
posted by Madamina at 2:41 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
2. My husband watches Walking Dead with a very different eye now that we have a baby. "I just keep thinking, 'She's so DIRTY!'"
posted by Madamina at 2:41 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
I read all the HP books some years ago; never saw any of the movies. A quick visit to Wikipedia to read up on Ron's exploits has not changed my view of the character, but of course you're entitled to your opinion no matter how misguided.
posted by GrammarMoses at 2:41 PM on October 17, 2014
posted by GrammarMoses at 2:41 PM on October 17, 2014
"There is something perniciously misogynistic about this listicle where it isn't even 'here is a list of fictional women whose lives could have been vastly improved by access to abortion', instead its 'here is a list of fictional women whose lives would have been vastly improved by a choice that we should have made for them without regard to how deeply violating that is or how devastated the characters might be'. I can't imagine that with wizard power and autocratic command of half a planet Lilly Potter or Padmé Amidala didn't have access to safe abortion, this isn't even plausibly "pro-choice," its something else so cartoonishly hypocritical that it almost makes sense to call it "anti-life"."
Oh, bullshit on your "anti-life" nonsense. This isn't fucking Darkseid, it's not saying that we should be rounding up women for abortion camps, it's pointing out that the lack of consideration of abortion as a reasonable option — a trope INCREDIBLY COMMON in broader culture — is a norm that does actually make many women's lives worse. Get off your crypto-Christian high horse.
"This only assumes that imposing the expectation of abortion on others is deeply violating thing and that for many women - whose feelings, values, and bodily autonomy is just as important as yours - abortion would be a devastating thing, including many in places where liberalism has gone all the way around the horseshoe to where this is not hypothetical."
You're arguing in a mythical state where abortion is the default assumption. Since it's not, questioning why it's not even mentioned when, yes, it would likely improve the outcomes for many fictional characters is worthwhile.
"Real women have a functionally infinite number of ways to feel about abortion, or just about any conceivable thing, because women in reality are not fictional, don't need to make sense to you, and are not categorically represented by you no matter how much you might wish it were so. "
MANSPLAIN ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED
"Its saying that deciding to have a child anyway, even though you're being chased by evil wizard, is wrong along with several other perfectly relatable, valid, and human decisions made in the stories this is mocking."
No, it's saying that these fictional women's lives would have been better if they had chosen to get abortions. You know how I know this? I actually read the piece — that was in the title!
"Besides, most of these are explicitly wanted so perhaps an even more accurate reversion would be: "Fictional Characters Whose Lives We Feel Would Have Been Vastly Improved By Having Babies They're Do Not Want.""
Well, no, since many of these women are either silent, ambivalent or reluctant about the pregnancies. But there are plenty of women in fiction whose lives would have been improved by having a child — women wanting children but being unable to have them is a pretty consistent trope.
"You can't put that on the Western World, its only in America that "liberalism" means either "ideas that I agree with to the exclusion of ones that I don't" or "ideas that I don't agree with to the exclusion of ones that I do.""
You literally do not know what you are talking about here by holding up China and North Korea as examples of "liberalism," and then trying to spin that as something that's the fault of the West or America. Both are extremely illiberal countries and your retort just makes you look even more foolish on the issue. Saying that either of them have gone 'round the horseshoe of liberalism is like saying that the U.S. is a black supremacist country — it's just laughably untrue.
posted by klangklangston at 2:48 PM on October 17, 2014 [30 favorites]
Oh, bullshit on your "anti-life" nonsense. This isn't fucking Darkseid, it's not saying that we should be rounding up women for abortion camps, it's pointing out that the lack of consideration of abortion as a reasonable option — a trope INCREDIBLY COMMON in broader culture — is a norm that does actually make many women's lives worse. Get off your crypto-Christian high horse.
"This only assumes that imposing the expectation of abortion on others is deeply violating thing and that for many women - whose feelings, values, and bodily autonomy is just as important as yours - abortion would be a devastating thing, including many in places where liberalism has gone all the way around the horseshoe to where this is not hypothetical."
You're arguing in a mythical state where abortion is the default assumption. Since it's not, questioning why it's not even mentioned when, yes, it would likely improve the outcomes for many fictional characters is worthwhile.
"Real women have a functionally infinite number of ways to feel about abortion, or just about any conceivable thing, because women in reality are not fictional, don't need to make sense to you, and are not categorically represented by you no matter how much you might wish it were so. "
MANSPLAIN ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED
"Its saying that deciding to have a child anyway, even though you're being chased by evil wizard, is wrong along with several other perfectly relatable, valid, and human decisions made in the stories this is mocking."
No, it's saying that these fictional women's lives would have been better if they had chosen to get abortions. You know how I know this? I actually read the piece — that was in the title!
"Besides, most of these are explicitly wanted so perhaps an even more accurate reversion would be: "Fictional Characters Whose Lives We Feel Would Have Been Vastly Improved By Having Babies They're Do Not Want.""
Well, no, since many of these women are either silent, ambivalent or reluctant about the pregnancies. But there are plenty of women in fiction whose lives would have been improved by having a child — women wanting children but being unable to have them is a pretty consistent trope.
"You can't put that on the Western World, its only in America that "liberalism" means either "ideas that I agree with to the exclusion of ones that I don't" or "ideas that I don't agree with to the exclusion of ones that I do.""
You literally do not know what you are talking about here by holding up China and North Korea as examples of "liberalism," and then trying to spin that as something that's the fault of the West or America. Both are extremely illiberal countries and your retort just makes you look even more foolish on the issue. Saying that either of them have gone 'round the horseshoe of liberalism is like saying that the U.S. is a black supremacist country — it's just laughably untrue.
posted by klangklangston at 2:48 PM on October 17, 2014 [30 favorites]
"OMFG yes. Every possible reason to choose option A, no reasons whatsoever to choose option B, she's actually given the choice, and she goes with option B. WTF."
I was so glad when her character was killed off. I don't know whether it was just an inability to write women or if the actor (a dollar-store version of Juliette Lewis) was unable to give any real emotional coherence to her dumb choices or what, but she was consistently the worst part of that show (which, given my druthers, would have Michonne as the lead character). Last season the worst part was Rick; I haven't seen the new one, but I assume it's time for Caaaaaarrrrrrrrlll to be the worst part.
posted by klangklangston at 2:53 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
I was so glad when her character was killed off. I don't know whether it was just an inability to write women or if the actor (a dollar-store version of Juliette Lewis) was unable to give any real emotional coherence to her dumb choices or what, but she was consistently the worst part of that show (which, given my druthers, would have Michonne as the lead character). Last season the worst part was Rick; I haven't seen the new one, but I assume it's time for Caaaaaarrrrrrrrlll to be the worst part.
posted by klangklangston at 2:53 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Good article overall, but I'm sick of this take on Katniss Everdeen. She states over and over that she doesn't want children throughout the books...because she likes children so much and doesn't want to bring a child into the world only to see it suffer.
Because it's never enough for a woman to take down a cruel dictatorship: her life just can't be complete without a man and a baby, the real victory conditions.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:39 PM on October 17, 2014 [19 favorites]
Because it's never enough for a woman to take down a cruel dictatorship: her life just can't be complete without a man and a baby, the real victory conditions.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:39 PM on October 17, 2014 [19 favorites]
While we're on the subject, I also hate the Star Trek: TNG episode where the clone planet asks if they can make some clones of the crew so they can prevent their clone civilization from dying off, and Picard and Riker are all like, no, gross, and we're not even going to ask the rest of the crew for volunteers because gross. And I was all like, what, you're not even going to ASK? Even if there's some weird stupid taboo against cloning in the Federation, you're not even going to check with your crew to find out if there's one, ONE weirdo who's all like, "Clones of me running around? Awesome! Down with the anti-clone system, man! And I get to save a world, I'm a hero!" Assholes.
I read someone who thought that the crew's destruction of their clones in that episode was a pro-choice allegory: ie, no reproduction without consent.
posted by dhens at 8:29 PM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
I read someone who thought that the crew's destruction of their clones in that episode was a pro-choice allegory: ie, no reproduction without consent.
posted by dhens at 8:29 PM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm going to add Mary from In Plain Sight to the list of characters who would have totally gotten an abortion in-world and there's really no explanation as to why she would gestate and keep a baby beyond "the actress who played her got pregnant."
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:46 PM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:46 PM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
bile and syntax: Because it's never enough for a woman to take down a cruel dictatorship: her life just can't be complete without a man and a baby, the real victory conditions.
While I agree with the gist of your disdain there, I always read that ending as mocking just that. Katniss gets what, in any other work, would be the default victory conditions - man! Baby! Defeated the Evil!
But in this universe, all three of those end up ringing hollow. The same strain of evil immediately rises to fill the power vacuum and this time you've helped raise and install it.
The babies are a terrifying experience at best, unwanted and dubiously consented to at worst.
And the man is simply who's left over when everything else has fallen away, and he fixated on and chose you the whole way and you're stuck inside a numb shell, unable to process or recover from your PTSD and when you begin to thaw a little, he's spent 15 years badgering you for children you've said you don't want and you've given them to him, so what's to be done about any of it at that point?
I took it as the author agreeing very strongly with you about what a happy ending is and really would become in such a situation.
posted by pseudonymph at 2:42 AM on October 18, 2014 [6 favorites]
While I agree with the gist of your disdain there, I always read that ending as mocking just that. Katniss gets what, in any other work, would be the default victory conditions - man! Baby! Defeated the Evil!
But in this universe, all three of those end up ringing hollow. The same strain of evil immediately rises to fill the power vacuum and this time you've helped raise and install it.
The babies are a terrifying experience at best, unwanted and dubiously consented to at worst.
And the man is simply who's left over when everything else has fallen away, and he fixated on and chose you the whole way and you're stuck inside a numb shell, unable to process or recover from your PTSD and when you begin to thaw a little, he's spent 15 years badgering you for children you've said you don't want and you've given them to him, so what's to be done about any of it at that point?
I took it as the author agreeing very strongly with you about what a happy ending is and really would become in such a situation.
posted by pseudonymph at 2:42 AM on October 18, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm going to some more from the epilogue of Mockingjay here, because I think we're intended to see hope in it. The world is recovering. Katniss's own recovery is incomplete, but her children are a part of it.
The epilogue is about post traumatic stress and healing and attempts to have a "normal" life and hope for the future but never really feeling quite normal and never really trusting that hope.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:07 AM on October 18, 2014 [7 favorites]
... It took five, ten, fifteen years for me to agree. But Peeta wanted them so badly. When I first felt her stirring inside of me, I was consumed with a terror that felt as old as life itself. Only the joy of holding her in my arms could tame it. Carrying him was a little easier, but not much.That's almost the whole damn epilogue right there. I am just not seeing any support for the idea that Katniss's life, in particular, is made worse by her decision to have kids. She is able to wait fifteen years, without Peeta leaving and without any unintentional pregnancies (that we're told about -- maybe she does have an abortion during that time?) so I think it is pretty clear she could have waited forever if she chose. It is her decision, even if part of the reason for that decision is to please him. That's a legitimate factor in deciding to have kids or not -- your partner's wishes. It shouldn't be the only factor, but if it were the only factor presumably they wouldn't have waited fifteen years. Of course Katniss feels ambivalent about her decision to have kids. I don't know anyone who commits to something like that without at least some ambivalence, and for Katniss it is even scarier, because how can she trust that the world will not destroy them, the way it has destroyed almost everything and everyone else she loved?
The questions are just beginning. The arenas have been completely destroyed, the memorials built, there are no more Hunger Games. But they teach about them at school, and the girl knows we played a role in them. The boy will know in a few years. How can I tell them about that world without frightening them to death? My children, who take the words of the song for granted: ...Here it's safe, here it's warm, here the daisies guard you from every harm. Here your dreams are sweet and tomorrow brings them true. Here is the place where I love you.
My children, who don't know they play on a graveyard.
Peeta says it will be okay. We have each other. And the book. We can make them understand in a way that will make them braver. But one day I'll have to explain about my nightmares. Why they came. Why they won't ever really go away.
I'll tell them how I survive it. I'll tell them that on bad mornings, it feels impossible to take pleasure in anything because I'm afraid it could be taken away. That's when I make a list in my head of every act of goodness I've seen someone do. It's like a game. Repetitive. Even a little tedious after more than twenty years.
But there are much worse games to play.
The epilogue is about post traumatic stress and healing and attempts to have a "normal" life and hope for the future but never really feeling quite normal and never really trusting that hope.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:07 AM on October 18, 2014 [7 favorites]
OnceUponATime: she doesn't sound terribly happy about the whole thing though, does she? I also find it sad that Katniss, who spends the entire series being forced to do things she does not want to do, finds herself yet again complying to someone else's wishes.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 1:27 AM on October 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Cannon Fodder at 1:27 AM on October 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think she has a hard time being really happy about anything "because I'm afraid it could be taken away."
But "the joy of holding her in my arms" and "Here is the place where I love you" and "We have each other" make it sound to me like she would be very happy if she weren't afraid to let herself feel happiness.
And I read "Peeta wanted them so badly" and "Peeta says it will be okay" as her accepting (wanting to accept) his reassurances. She's afraid, but he's not. She is leaning on his courage.
It's not that she didn't want want kids because she doesn't like kids or didn't want to be a mother. It's that without Peeta she would have been too afraid, or too depressed. He keeps her from curling up in her shell and withdrawing from the world. He makes her invest. I can't see that as a bad thing. I think if Katniss saw it as a bad thing, she wouldn't stay.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:40 AM on October 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
But "the joy of holding her in my arms" and "Here is the place where I love you" and "We have each other" make it sound to me like she would be very happy if she weren't afraid to let herself feel happiness.
And I read "Peeta wanted them so badly" and "Peeta says it will be okay" as her accepting (wanting to accept) his reassurances. She's afraid, but he's not. She is leaning on his courage.
It's not that she didn't want want kids because she doesn't like kids or didn't want to be a mother. It's that without Peeta she would have been too afraid, or too depressed. He keeps her from curling up in her shell and withdrawing from the world. He makes her invest. I can't see that as a bad thing. I think if Katniss saw it as a bad thing, she wouldn't stay.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:40 AM on October 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
I see where Mallory is going with this, but she has reverse rose-colored glasses on for a lot of these.
For instance, there is no reason why James and Lilly would still be alive if they hadn't had Harry They went after Deatheaters, and Voldemort didn't come after them because they had a kid or anything. It wasn't Harry's fault that they died; if anything, it was their (or possibly just James's, which makes sense as I always thought he sounded like an ass anyway) poor judgment in deciding to change their secret keeper to a literal rat-man that killed them.
I think what bothers people here, by the way, is not the idea of a character getting an abortion being a valid choice for anyone, it is that Mallory uses the word "improved", to describe these fictional characters' alternative histories without children. I think that is a simplistic view, myself.
An uncomplicated life is not necessarily better. The challenges we face can be the difference between merely existing and living a purposeful, fulfilling life. Dealing with adversity can strengthen character, and strengthen the bonds between people who have dealt with it together, side by side. Katniss and Peeta are an example of this. Yes, Katniss is scared to have a kid after the Hunger Games. Any rational person who had see what her society did to its children would be!
That society has changed, largely because of Katniss and Peeta, but it came at quite a cost, and she still has those memories to deal with. Peeta bounced back more quickly than she did, because Prim.
Katniss knows Peeta wants children some day (because they have talked about it in the books), but she is not ready, and I think she is pretty honest with him that she may never be ready. She waits until she thinks she can handle it, which seems like a healthy attitude to me, and that it took as long as it did seems to show that Peeta wasn't putting a lot of pressure on her to change her mind. Why assume the worst of Peeta (and by the way, that is not AT ALL in character with the way he was written), and just decide he was browbeating Katniss into having kids all that time?
If we are going to put our own spin on this, I think the "5, 10, 15 years" reference makes a good case for the two of them realizing they weren't on the same page, and deciding mutually to revisit the question every 5 years, to see if they still felt the same way. Peeta wanted kids each time and did not change his mind from that stance. Katniss was initially opposed because she had lost so much, then maybe tentative for a while, but after enough time had gone by she felt secure enough that she was willing to take the risk. Once she did, she not only had one child, she had two! Which tells me she did not regret that decision. If she really felt it was the wrong move, I don't see her deciding to go through it again.
posted by misha at 3:43 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
For instance, there is no reason why James and Lilly would still be alive if they hadn't had Harry They went after Deatheaters, and Voldemort didn't come after them because they had a kid or anything. It wasn't Harry's fault that they died; if anything, it was their (or possibly just James's, which makes sense as I always thought he sounded like an ass anyway) poor judgment in deciding to change their secret keeper to a literal rat-man that killed them.
I think what bothers people here, by the way, is not the idea of a character getting an abortion being a valid choice for anyone, it is that Mallory uses the word "improved", to describe these fictional characters' alternative histories without children. I think that is a simplistic view, myself.
An uncomplicated life is not necessarily better. The challenges we face can be the difference between merely existing and living a purposeful, fulfilling life. Dealing with adversity can strengthen character, and strengthen the bonds between people who have dealt with it together, side by side. Katniss and Peeta are an example of this. Yes, Katniss is scared to have a kid after the Hunger Games. Any rational person who had see what her society did to its children would be!
That society has changed, largely because of Katniss and Peeta, but it came at quite a cost, and she still has those memories to deal with. Peeta bounced back more quickly than she did, because Prim.
Katniss knows Peeta wants children some day (because they have talked about it in the books), but she is not ready, and I think she is pretty honest with him that she may never be ready. She waits until she thinks she can handle it, which seems like a healthy attitude to me, and that it took as long as it did seems to show that Peeta wasn't putting a lot of pressure on her to change her mind. Why assume the worst of Peeta (and by the way, that is not AT ALL in character with the way he was written), and just decide he was browbeating Katniss into having kids all that time?
If we are going to put our own spin on this, I think the "5, 10, 15 years" reference makes a good case for the two of them realizing they weren't on the same page, and deciding mutually to revisit the question every 5 years, to see if they still felt the same way. Peeta wanted kids each time and did not change his mind from that stance. Katniss was initially opposed because she had lost so much, then maybe tentative for a while, but after enough time had gone by she felt secure enough that she was willing to take the risk. Once she did, she not only had one child, she had two! Which tells me she did not regret that decision. If she really felt it was the wrong move, I don't see her deciding to go through it again.
posted by misha at 3:43 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
and Voldemort didn't come after them because they had a kid or anything
....what on earth are you on about?
Voldemort specifically targeted them because of Sibyl Trelawney's prophecy, which was reported to him by Severus Snape. He knew it could have pertained to two children born in July to a pair of his enemies, which meant it was either Harry or Neville Longbottom. He decided it meant that Harry was the correct child, and chose to attempt to kill Harry. He went to Godric's Hollow to do so, killing Lily and James in the process. Snape's entire "redemption" scene with Dumbledore is played out by him realizing that his decision to share Trelawney's prophecy with Voldemort was the thing that directly led to Lily's death, and feeling regret over having indirectly caused it, thus causing him to turn sides and join the Order of the Phoenix.
i mean really next you'll be saying that bob ewell tried to kill scout because he didn't like ham
posted by poffin boffin at 4:06 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
....what on earth are you on about?
Voldemort specifically targeted them because of Sibyl Trelawney's prophecy, which was reported to him by Severus Snape. He knew it could have pertained to two children born in July to a pair of his enemies, which meant it was either Harry or Neville Longbottom. He decided it meant that Harry was the correct child, and chose to attempt to kill Harry. He went to Godric's Hollow to do so, killing Lily and James in the process. Snape's entire "redemption" scene with Dumbledore is played out by him realizing that his decision to share Trelawney's prophecy with Voldemort was the thing that directly led to Lily's death, and feeling regret over having indirectly caused it, thus causing him to turn sides and join the Order of the Phoenix.
i mean really next you'll be saying that bob ewell tried to kill scout because he didn't like ham
posted by poffin boffin at 4:06 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
you come into my house on the day of my daughter's wedding and you ask me to accept potter canon inaccuracies
posted by poffin boffin at 4:08 PM on October 22, 2014 [15 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 4:08 PM on October 22, 2014 [15 favorites]
Voldemort specifically targeted them because of Sibyl Trelawney's prophecy
They had already thrice defied Voldemort (as had the Longbottoms; it was part of the prophecy) -- Voldemort was coming after them before, and he would have come after them anyways. The prophecy made them more important targets -- they were secondary targets after Harry -- but they were already targets for being Big Names in the resistance.
Snape directly led to Lily's death, but it's by no means assured that Voldemort wouldn't have killed her anyways, because he'd been trying to already.
posted by jeather at 5:57 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
They had already thrice defied Voldemort (as had the Longbottoms; it was part of the prophecy) -- Voldemort was coming after them before, and he would have come after them anyways. The prophecy made them more important targets -- they were secondary targets after Harry -- but they were already targets for being Big Names in the resistance.
Snape directly led to Lily's death, but it's by no means assured that Voldemort wouldn't have killed her anyways, because he'd been trying to already.
posted by jeather at 5:57 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
How many stories, comparatively, involve women having abortions and it not totally ruining their lives?
Carrie and Samantha in Sex and the City.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:21 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Carrie and Samantha in Sex and the City.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:21 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
So even if Hermione is taking magical birth control, I don't see why it's unthinkable to imagine that she might want a magical or muggle abortion after such a failure.
*waves wand* "Fetus deletus!"
posted by Jacqueline at 7:22 PM on October 22, 2014 [9 favorites]
*waves wand* "Fetus deletus!"
posted by Jacqueline at 7:22 PM on October 22, 2014 [9 favorites]
An uncomplicated life is not necessarily better. The challenges we face can be the difference between merely existing and living a purposeful, fulfilling life. Dealing with adversity can strengthen character, and strengthen the bonds between people who have dealt with it together, side by side.
I'd bet good money that Ortberg wrote the OP link after hearing too much pontification to this effect about how women should do the difficult (non-aborting) thing that some judgey person thought was right instead of whatever said women decided was best for themselves on the reproductive front.
posted by immlass at 7:26 PM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]
I'd bet good money that Ortberg wrote the OP link after hearing too much pontification to this effect about how women should do the difficult (non-aborting) thing that some judgey person thought was right instead of whatever said women decided was best for themselves on the reproductive front.
posted by immlass at 7:26 PM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]
what on earth are you on about?
What on earth is your problem?
Hey, maybe just reread the books yourself instead of taking on such an insulting tone? James and Lily were targets before Harry was ever in the picture.
Immlass, that is a particularly nasty spin to put on what I actually wrote. My point was that Katniss and Peeta had dealt with true adversity and come out stronger at the end. They could easily have kept on going without having children if they wanted to; neither one of them is too weak to stand up for their beliefs. If Katniss had a child--when she had to be in her thirties, at least--it is because she, an adult woman, chose to do so. Just because it wasn't an easy choice to make doesn't mean it was the wrong one.
And I'm not judging anyone. If anyone is being judged, it is Mallory. She assumes an abortion would make Katniss' life better, for no reason other than she doesn't like the ending of the trilogy.
posted by misha at 10:26 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
What on earth is your problem?
Hey, maybe just reread the books yourself instead of taking on such an insulting tone? James and Lily were targets before Harry was ever in the picture.
Immlass, that is a particularly nasty spin to put on what I actually wrote. My point was that Katniss and Peeta had dealt with true adversity and come out stronger at the end. They could easily have kept on going without having children if they wanted to; neither one of them is too weak to stand up for their beliefs. If Katniss had a child--when she had to be in her thirties, at least--it is because she, an adult woman, chose to do so. Just because it wasn't an easy choice to make doesn't mean it was the wrong one.
And I'm not judging anyone. If anyone is being judged, it is Mallory. She assumes an abortion would make Katniss' life better, for no reason other than she doesn't like the ending of the trilogy.
posted by misha at 10:26 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
And I'm not judging anyone. If anyone is being judged, it is Mallory. She assumes an abortion would make Katniss' life better, for no reason other than she doesn't like the ending of the trilogy.
Does she need a better reason? It is a humour piece that is clearly someone's explicit opinion. I don't think she is making a fundamental point about reality. I mean, if this article was called "Real life people who would have been a lot happier if they'd had an abortion" then maybe I could see it.
People do have children at an incredibly young age in HP. I guess with the war and all it isn't completely unrealistic, but James and Lily are so so young!
I mean.. these points can be argued, but this is just a way to look at some fictional story lines in a way they haven't been looked at before. Maybe the Bennets would have had an easier life with less children? Counterfactuals are fun, is what I'm saying!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 3:45 AM on October 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
Does she need a better reason? It is a humour piece that is clearly someone's explicit opinion. I don't think she is making a fundamental point about reality. I mean, if this article was called "Real life people who would have been a lot happier if they'd had an abortion" then maybe I could see it.
People do have children at an incredibly young age in HP. I guess with the war and all it isn't completely unrealistic, but James and Lily are so so young!
I mean.. these points can be argued, but this is just a way to look at some fictional story lines in a way they haven't been looked at before. Maybe the Bennets would have had an easier life with less children? Counterfactuals are fun, is what I'm saying!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 3:45 AM on October 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
Hey, maybe just reread the books yourself instead of taking on such an insulting tone?
It was more utter astonishment as though you had said "as we all know, the sky has always been green". And I 100% stand by my accurate description of precisely what happened.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:02 AM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
It was more utter astonishment as though you had said "as we all know, the sky has always been green". And I 100% stand by my accurate description of precisely what happened.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:02 AM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
that is a particularly nasty spin to put on what I actually wrote.
The bit I quoted was a set of standard "other people's abortions are wrong and here's why" talking points. Somebody wrote an AU set of ficlets in which the agency of female characters who get a shit hand in life (death) is improved by abortion. If a reader's response to this is "she didn't understand the books", that says more about the reader and their response to Ortberg's criticism of the handling of abortion in popular culture than it does about Ortberg or the article.
I'm sorry you were offended.
posted by immlass at 8:04 AM on October 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
The bit I quoted was a set of standard "other people's abortions are wrong and here's why" talking points. Somebody wrote an AU set of ficlets in which the agency of female characters who get a shit hand in life (death) is improved by abortion. If a reader's response to this is "she didn't understand the books", that says more about the reader and their response to Ortberg's criticism of the handling of abortion in popular culture than it does about Ortberg or the article.
I'm sorry you were offended.
posted by immlass at 8:04 AM on October 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
The bit I quoted was a set of standard "other people's abortions are wrong and here's why" talking points
Nope, not at all, and that is what is so frustrating to me. I do appreciate the apology. I was not offended for the reason you assume, though.
I have NOT said a character was wrong to choose an abortion. I have NOT said a character who had an abortion would vastly improve her life by having a child instead. That would be casting judgment on someone.
What I have done is defend the choice the character actually made.
With Katniss, Ortberg goes for the humor and a one-liner; she doesn't really try to make a case. I made a case for why Katniss making the choice she did made sense for her character.
I am vehemently pro-choice. Your just assuming I am anti-choice and calling my statements talking points, that offends me.
[Plus, you put a few statements in quotation marks as if those were my words. That is a pet peeve of mine. Please do not act like you are quoting me when you aren't! Thank you.]
posted by misha at 9:22 PM on October 23, 2014
Nope, not at all, and that is what is so frustrating to me. I do appreciate the apology. I was not offended for the reason you assume, though.
I have NOT said a character was wrong to choose an abortion. I have NOT said a character who had an abortion would vastly improve her life by having a child instead. That would be casting judgment on someone.
What I have done is defend the choice the character actually made.
With Katniss, Ortberg goes for the humor and a one-liner; she doesn't really try to make a case. I made a case for why Katniss making the choice she did made sense for her character.
I am vehemently pro-choice. Your just assuming I am anti-choice and calling my statements talking points, that offends me.
[Plus, you put a few statements in quotation marks as if those were my words. That is a pet peeve of mine. Please do not act like you are quoting me when you aren't! Thank you.]
posted by misha at 9:22 PM on October 23, 2014
Plus, you put a few statements in quotation marks as if those were my words.
I use the standard Metafilter "quote in italics on one line and respond underneath" format that you yourself used. The bit between actual quote marks in the line you quoted--using the same standard format--was marked out because it was a paraphrase, and not just of your comments. If I'm directly quoting someone other than in the usual pullout/italics method, I say so.
Your just assuming I am anti-choice and calling my statements talking points, that offends me.
I don't know or particularly care what your personal political beliefs are (nor did I address them; I addressed your comments in this thread). However you may feel personally, your comments on Katniss and Lily Potter, and the comments of other participants here, matched up with reasons I have heard repeatedly from people who are against abortion about why women who become pregnant should have children when the pregnant women may not want to. Whatever you thought the point of the article was, I read it as a criticism of literary handling of women characters and also of abortion, and not a detailed and particular dig at any author. To me, nitpicking how Ortberg is interrogating the text from the wrong perspective misses the entire point of the article.
This is the last comment I have to make on this topic.
posted by immlass at 9:46 AM on October 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
I use the standard Metafilter "quote in italics on one line and respond underneath" format that you yourself used. The bit between actual quote marks in the line you quoted--using the same standard format--was marked out because it was a paraphrase, and not just of your comments. If I'm directly quoting someone other than in the usual pullout/italics method, I say so.
Your just assuming I am anti-choice and calling my statements talking points, that offends me.
I don't know or particularly care what your personal political beliefs are (nor did I address them; I addressed your comments in this thread). However you may feel personally, your comments on Katniss and Lily Potter, and the comments of other participants here, matched up with reasons I have heard repeatedly from people who are against abortion about why women who become pregnant should have children when the pregnant women may not want to. Whatever you thought the point of the article was, I read it as a criticism of literary handling of women characters and also of abortion, and not a detailed and particular dig at any author. To me, nitpicking how Ortberg is interrogating the text from the wrong perspective misses the entire point of the article.
This is the last comment I have to make on this topic.
posted by immlass at 9:46 AM on October 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think the discussion in this thread has included some great criticism of how women and pregnancy are handled in literature. I really could relate to Catseye's frustration with the Convenient Miscarriage plot device, and I also agree that oftentimes abortion is either skirted around evasively or unrealistically portrayed as a traumatic ordeal haunting a character throughout the days of her life.
To me, nitpicking how Ortberg is interrogating the text from the wrong perspective misses the entire point of the article.
If I came across as nitpicking, maybe it was because I was trying to provide support for my viewpoint. I think it would be less respectful to just toss in some snark instead of explaining. And, really, just because a few of us here (not just me) disagreed about whether some of these characters' lives would have been vastly improved by having abortions means we have missed the entire point of the article? I think that's a pretty extreme position to take. Honestly, it seems to me that this kind of debate is perfectly in line with the author's intent in posting this piece to begin with.
posted by misha at 11:14 PM on October 25, 2014
To me, nitpicking how Ortberg is interrogating the text from the wrong perspective misses the entire point of the article.
If I came across as nitpicking, maybe it was because I was trying to provide support for my viewpoint. I think it would be less respectful to just toss in some snark instead of explaining. And, really, just because a few of us here (not just me) disagreed about whether some of these characters' lives would have been vastly improved by having abortions means we have missed the entire point of the article? I think that's a pretty extreme position to take. Honestly, it seems to me that this kind of debate is perfectly in line with the author's intent in posting this piece to begin with.
posted by misha at 11:14 PM on October 25, 2014
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omg yes.
posted by phunniemee at 8:48 PM on October 16, 2014 [33 favorites]