Water, Air, Fire, and the Drop
October 27, 2014 4:05 PM   Subscribe

Lindsey Stirling's [previously 1, 2] Elements: her violin interpretation of dubstep.
posted by quin (80 comments total) 18 users marked this as a favorite
 
Clicked for Lindsey Stance. Was not disappointed.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:15 PM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


I admit to subscribing to her youtube channel... This one is sort of fun as well.

protip: This stuff is great to listen to while cleaning the house!
posted by HuronBob at 4:31 PM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


There's an acoustic version of this song, too, with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
posted by lharmon at 4:44 PM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


49,578,587 views on yt.
posted by sneebler at 5:33 PM on October 27, 2014


I'm trying to decide...kitsch or camp? I'm leaning toward kitsch. That said, as Sontag notes:

"18. One must distinguish between naïve and deliberate Camp. Pure Camp is always naive. Camp which knows itself to be Camp...is usually less satisfying."

And this is as self-consciously camp as anything I've seen in a while.

Also, I'm not sure why the violin tends to be treated this way. I'm thinking of Vanessa Mae and Emilie Autumn, among others who pursue this type of "fusion." Is it solely a function of its size and portability? Sparkly pixie sousaphone players thin on the ground?

At any rate, thanks for posting. I'll pass, but it was interesting to see.
posted by the sobsister at 5:43 PM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


To me this has a sort of sexy sax guy vibe to it. I was expecting something more like Owen Pallett or Hugh Marsh.
posted by Poldo at 5:50 PM on October 27, 2014


Dubstep does not mean what she thinks it means.
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:56 PM on October 27, 2014 [15 favorites]


At what point does moving your body become privilege or priveleged exploitation of cultivated modesty and repression?
posted by Emor at 6:04 PM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


"At what point does moving your body become privilege or priveleged exploitation of cultivated modesty and repression?" I have no idea what the use of privilege or privileged exploitation means in this sentence or how it relates to cultivated modesty and repression.
posted by rmhsinc at 6:10 PM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


I don't think all that rain is good for her violin.
posted by TwoStride at 6:17 PM on October 27, 2014 [8 favorites]


If you believe a woman simultaneously playing the violin and dancing is camp, I would like to ask if you a question. Do you feel this is more or less camp than a woman singing and dancing? Singing and dancing as a modern pop star practice is at least decades old, but goes back significantly farther when you take into account variations like musicals, vaudeville, and even cabaret. So is it the violin that makes it camp? If you believe the violin is a staid, static instrument then I hate to say it but people have been playing it wrong from the beginning.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:27 PM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


She's wearing a bear hat! In the forest!

I love her. In my alternate reality, she's Jena Malone's baby sister and this video was the result of a late-night dare.
posted by mochapickle at 6:39 PM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'd not be surprised to see a frozen rose smashed by a hammer in that video.
posted by thelonius at 6:43 PM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


No, it's not the violin + dancing, per se. It's the OTT-ness of it all. The twee twinkletoesiness. The exaggerated physicality. The blandness of the music juxtaposed against the raging of the elements. She strikes me as being not a great musician or a great dancer and, so, basically selling this on glitz, flash and, yes, camp. Something along the lines of Liberace doing a purple Romantic arrangement of "Three Little Fishies" while minueting in powdered wig and knee breeches.

And I have no belief that the violin (or, really, any instrument) is Sacred and fit only to play canonical pieces of concert music. Maya Beiser, for example, is an interesting example of someone doing something other than the expected as a solo cellist. Down to her recent album of rock covers.
posted by the sobsister at 6:45 PM on October 27, 2014 [11 favorites]


I was really hoping that she'd make her violin go "Wub-Wub-Wub" somehow. Ah well.
posted by redbeard at 6:52 PM on October 27, 2014 [8 favorites]


I don't think all that rain is good for her violin.

She has a stunt violin called Ingrid.
posted by mochapickle at 7:03 PM on October 27, 2014


The dance on its own is kitsch. The way the dance is so obviously incompatible to the playing of the violin is another layer of wrong on top of that. And on top of that is the incredibly forward and shallow way it presents the signalling of femininity.

I find these videos incredibly and ASTONISHINGLY disgusting. I think part of that may be that on some subconscious level it's built to be be appealing, but consciously you realize it's nothing you want to be associated with so fuck that. I'm blown away by how much it makes me cringe.

It feels like watching child beauty pageants.
posted by tychotesla at 7:14 PM on October 27, 2014 [8 favorites]


The river dance stuff she does genuinely drives me up a wall. Glad to see I'm not alone
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:17 PM on October 27, 2014


"I find these videos politicians incredibly and ASTONISHINGLY disgusting. I think part of that may be that on some subconscious level it's built to be be appealing, but consciously you realize it's nothing you want to be associated with so fuck that. I'm blown away by how much it makes me cringe."

There, fixed that for you... And, we'll NEVER force you to watch one again...promise..
posted by HuronBob at 7:22 PM on October 27, 2014


You know what the dancing looks like to me? It looks like fun. I realize that that in itself is actually a cardinal sin when it comes to making art, but I just thought I should mention that there are other interpretations than self-conscious kitsch or some kind of calculated move to hide her (claimed) shortcomings as a violinist and dancer. You might not like what she does, and that's fine, but if you will allow for the possibility that she does you might come across as less curmudgeonly.

Now, the discussion of sexuality and dance in the context of the Mormon culture of modesty (or repression, or oppression, depending on your point of view, I suppose) is interesting stuff. That's a real beast to pick apart, though. Between the expectations the wider culture places on women, especially women in the public eye, and the way we are all (men and women) trained to sexualize women even in non-sexual contexts, plus the fact that dance is kind of inherently sexy, and then the religious angle...
posted by Nothing at 7:42 PM on October 27, 2014 [5 favorites]


I assume she does like what she does. But I think that's beside the point. Since this is being put in the public square for consumption, I assume we the audience are meant to like it. And "like" it on YT and FB and buy her CDs or d/l her tunes or whatever.

Further, having fun is hardly a "cardinal sin," your sarcasm notwithstanding. I enjoy watching performers enjoy their work. No one need be po-faced and somber (unless they're performing Dowland, I suppose). That said, her Child-like Glee™ doesn't make her dancing or playing any more enjoyable to consume.

Of course she's enjoying herself. I'm not. Thence my criticism.
posted by the sobsister at 7:50 PM on October 27, 2014


The way the dance is so obviously incompatible to the playing of the violin is another layer of wrong on top of that.

She actually does dance like that while she plays. It's sort of her niche. Link

You've got me thinking, though. Early Taylor Swift music sets me into an absolute rage (her female protagonists are so passive and soppy and cliche) and people look at me like I'm nuts when I talk about it. But I'm perfectly OK with Stirling.
posted by mochapickle at 7:55 PM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


(It's fun to bounce between this thread and the OK Go thread. People in both vids look like they're having fun all around, but not all viewers are into it. In conclusion, Metafilter is a land of contrast.)
posted by mochapickle at 7:58 PM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


I was first introduced to this lady via the phrase "Lindsey Stirling dances like she's trying to escape a fart" and I would be lying if I said that didn't instill in me an immediate bias that remains impossible to overcome.
posted by komara at 7:58 PM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


Listening to her talk about it makes me happy, because I like to like people and she seems to be a nice person who's into what she does.
posted by tychotesla at 8:00 PM on October 27, 2014 [4 favorites]


(It's fun to bounce between this thread and the OK Go thread. People in both vids look like they're having fun all around, but not all viewers are into it. In conclusion, Metafilter is a land of contrast.)

Also: people not sufficiently in awe of Benjamin and Adorno as Great Philosophers
posted by thelonius at 8:02 PM on October 27, 2014


This song of hers is much better and a tiny bit closer to "dubstep". (The fake kind that Skrillex does, not the real kind.)

Say what you will but she can play the violin better than most electronic musicians and orchestrate electronic music better than most violinists...
posted by mmoncur at 8:04 PM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


RE: Her "dubstep," I'm ready to go to the wiener dog race!

To me the whole thing seems kind of over-the-top, silly, and, sure, fun. Probably targeted to somebody much younger than me so who am I to criticize. Maybe if I was a teenager I might think this was the wonderfullest thing ever.
posted by edheil at 8:18 PM on October 27, 2014


I have discovered that Mormon flavored "edgy" music is a thing. The Piano Guys. Lindsey. Heck, Imagine Dragons has a touch of it. (Or, their Radioactive video did, for sure.)

It all seems for lack of a better phrase "sanitized for my protection."

I like it, and I kinda hate that I like it. I want to push it through a glass window, metaphorically, and see if they can find something real in it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:47 PM on October 27, 2014 [5 favorites]


does anyone have any ('real') dubstep (DMZ type of stuff) w/ violin in it? recommendations? i'm blanking here.

not dubstep, but saltillo's downtempo album "ganglion" had some great violin on it. i'll link to it a bit later.
posted by raihan_ at 9:03 PM on October 27, 2014


You know what the dancing looks like to me? It looks like fun. I realize that that in itself is actually a cardinal sin when it comes to making art

Especially on metafilter. I think she smiles at times too- no wonder people on metafilter hate her.
posted by happyroach at 9:27 PM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


Not violin, but if you want real dubstep with recognizable instruments in it, you could and probably will do worse than this. Warning: excellent music, requires a sound system or headphones that are halfway decent for proper appreciation.

If you want some harsh wobbles but don't appreciate this twee stuff, Biome may be more your bag. Note that there is no "drop" in either of these because that is more of an electro-house / EDM thing and dubstep doesn't need 'em.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:12 PM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


if you want real dubstep with real instruments-- swindle is amazing! he sampled his jazz backing band to make this one. it's like a combination of swing, jazz, dubstep and trap. sounds strange on text, great on your headphones :^)

Swindle - Walter's Call

(rec'd if you know/like/love deep medi.)
posted by raihan_ at 10:28 PM on October 27, 2014


1adam12: rutten's a classic! :)
posted by raihan_ at 10:29 PM on October 27, 2014


I like it, and I kinda hate that I like it. I want to push it through a glass window, metaphorically, and see if they can find something real in it.

Mormons? Try the oeuvre of Brandon Flowers.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:44 PM on October 27, 2014


Not violin, but if you want real dubstep with recognizable instruments in it, you could and probably will do worse than this . Warning: excellent music, requires a sound system or headphones that are halfway decent for proper appreciation.

If you want some harsh wobbles but don't appreciate this twee stuff, Biome may be more your bag. Note that there is no "drop" in either of these because that is more of an electro-house / EDM thing and dubstep doesn't need 'em.


em, both of those absolutely have a bass drop, 16 and 32 bars in respectively , as does the majority if not quite all of old school dubstep, as inherited ultimately from DnB/Jungle. It just doesn't go bwwwwaaahwuhwuhwuh because old school dubstep doesn't do that.
posted by atoxyl at 11:03 PM on October 27, 2014


That's what I meant. No huge mind-shattering braaaaaaaaaaap kind of thing. I find that when most people are talking about a "drop" that's what they have in mind.
posted by 1adam12 at 11:08 PM on October 27, 2014


I figured, but (obviously I'm deep into this stuff too) I'm intentionally reclaiming a term with a way longer history than the last few years. Plus something like this is at least as mind-shattering as Skrillex imo if you hear/feel it on a serious sound system. It's just more atmospheric and more focused on the actual sub-bass line.
posted by atoxyl at 11:14 PM on October 27, 2014


It's been done since as early as 2007: Caspa - Cockney Violin
posted by ageispolis at 11:24 PM on October 27, 2014


I don't mind gimmicks if the music is good, but... to put it plainly, Lindsey Stirling isn't a good violinist technically. In the sense that there are many professional violinists that play better. And the iffy technique is exacerbated by the dancing, and this all becomes more obvious in her live performances.

And it isn't quite accurate to compare her to Vanessa Mae or Emilie Autumn either - both those other 2 musicians have much more skill (and I think perhaps more training). Vanessa Mae in particular used to be a professional classical violinist - and I think her technique and training stood her in good stead for live performances that involved dancing. (Compare for example: this to this - intonation, bowing, etc...)

Lindsey Stirling seems to like the violin a lot; I wish that passion could be matched with actual skill. But I guess if she's encouraging more people to take an interest in the violin, that's a great thing in itself.
posted by aielen at 2:46 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think despite the fact that nobody is forced to watch it, it is alright to be quite angry at this type of predatory-sex-atrocious-kitsch-supreme-musical-shallowness mix. As it was playing, my daughter's friend, 18, walked in and said "that's great". Now I'm going to have to explain why it isn't, and I have plenty on my hands already. I think it's on the level of indecency to minors.
posted by holist at 2:48 AM on October 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Whoa! Where... where is this negativity coming from?! Did I miss something? Stirling did an AMA on Reddit a little while ago and she seemed like a nice, genuine person, and she said it took her a long time to learn to dance with her violin like that. (Personally, I think it looks and sounds really cool!) How you could extract anything negative from this form of expression, I have no idea.
posted by archagon at 3:42 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also, it's not any more silly than ANY OTHER FORM OF MUSIC EVER. (Metal? Pop? DJing?! All full of incredibly silly mannerisms. No one ever complains.)

Come on guys.
posted by archagon at 3:46 AM on October 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Oh, and seeing x million views consistently on her videos makes me think that people actually, really do like her music. Where does the idea that this is kitsch or poor playing even come from? Have you HEARD indie musicians these days?
posted by archagon at 3:52 AM on October 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Posting a link to a Lindsey Sterling video on Metafilter is sort of like intentionally walking across some grumpy old guy's lawn and kicking up clumps of sod... Your like minded delinquent friends are going to egg you on and cheer, the grumpy old guy is going to wave his fist and scream obscenities.
posted by HuronBob at 4:08 AM on October 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


I do complain. It's not the genre, though (if you think music is about genre, you've got a lot to learn). This sort of thing can be done well (as mentioned above), but overproduced trite music with overtones of barely 18 is not the way to do it. Just imagine how this would sell, how many millions would like it, if she were 'ugly' (i.e. far from the mainstream ideal). Lots of flies love shit.
posted by holist at 4:42 AM on October 28, 2014


Well, I think it sounds good. Kinetic and unusual, nice acoustic fusion with electronic. I like Emilie Autumn too.

Plus, I think she looks really cool when she's doing her thing. Better than this by a long shot.
posted by archagon at 4:47 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


That Swindle track is rather good! :)

The thing is, playing a violin while jumping around like crazy just smacks of the circus. The great majority of pop music is circus acts these days, the only thing I don't like about it is the pretense that it's music. This particular circus act strikes me as rather lame, but YMMV.
posted by holist at 4:51 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Not a student of violin here, but I'm surprised to hear more than one person say she's not that great of a violin player. What am I not hearing that you are that says "mediocrity" to you?

I'm a non-professional pianist and I'd like to think of myself as having more than a tin ear. I know there is technique on other instruments that I don't have the training for, which is what I'm wondering about here.
posted by Thistledown at 5:44 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


That Swindle track is rather good! :)

The thing is, playing a violin while jumping around like crazy just smacks of the circus. The great majority of pop music is circus acts these days, the only thing I don't like about it is the pretense that it's music. This particular circus act strikes me as rather lame, but YMMV.
posted by holist at 7:51 AM on October 28 [+] [!]


Define, please, because it sounds here like you have some REALLY narrow definitions of what "music" is.
posted by Thistledown at 5:45 AM on October 28, 2014


overproduced trite music with overtones of barely 18 is not the way to do it. Just imagine how this would sell, how many millions would like it, if she were 'ugly' (i.e. far from the mainstream ideal).

Telling young, pretty women the ways they're not allowed to present themselves is just as sexist as telling ugly women the ways they're not allowed to present themselves, just FYI.
posted by marginaliana at 6:10 AM on October 28, 2014 [7 favorites]


the sobsister:
Sparkly pixie sousaphone players thin on the ground?
An unexploited niche. You just gave me a way out of this damn office job. Thank you!
posted by charred husk at 6:17 AM on October 28, 2014




Listened to the song without watching the video... it sounds like the soundtrack for a Las Vegas stage magician, or a planetarium show, or what you would hear if you called the Cirque du Soleil offices and got put on hold. I don't care what she looks like, it doesn't sound good to me.
posted by Daily Alice at 7:18 AM on October 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Yes, her music videos are "ASTONISHINGLY disgusting." You see, dance pop music videos on YouTube are like this wonderfully pure reservoir of unbelievably clear water, and adding her stuff into the mix is like the pouring in thousands of gallons of diarrhea. With ebola.

She's also like that national parks artist.
posted by leopard at 7:28 AM on October 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I think as Metafilter's antipathy to Lindsay Sterling makes sense, once you realize she's an elf, and mefites are mostly dwarves.

If she'd only stop with the prancing! And grow a beard. And glower while doing properly serious and gloomy songs. Well then it might be different.
posted by happyroach at 8:15 AM on October 28, 2014 [12 favorites]


People don't you get it? Violining is violining, and dancing is dancing, and never the twain shall meet!

As a former highland dancer, this separation of music and dancing weirds me the hell out. A whole segment of violin music comes purely out of "gimme something to dance to". There aren't tons of people who can do both, because either one is quite challenging.
posted by Lemurrhea at 8:26 AM on October 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


I quite like her stuff when I encounter it on Pandora, and I usually find pop/rock instrumentals boring. The videos are kind of dorky, but so are most music videos.
posted by tavella at 9:11 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


"Listened to the song without watching the video....."

Whenever someone recommends a movie to me, I watch it with the sound off... People really recommend terrible movies, don't they.
posted by HuronBob at 9:35 AM on October 28, 2014


she seemed like a nice, genuine person, and she said it took her a long time to learn to dance with her violin like that.

That's pretty much the problem right there. "Playing" the violin is more complicated than that. I hear someone who's had some lessons and owns a violin. I'm not hearing any particular musical expression other than "hey let's make a cool video with her jumping around and making cool sounds". All of which leads me to believe this person has nothing to say musically.

There aren't tons of people who can do both, because either one is quite challenging.

QFT.
posted by sneebler at 9:38 AM on October 28, 2014


Thistledown: her intonation (i.e. the fingering/pitching of her notes) was one thing that leapt out to me. Her 'tone color'/timbre (which is mostly affected by bowing technique) is also not as developed as it could be, but that could sometimes be due to recording setup/gear etc. On the other hand, inaccurate intonation is inaccurate intonation and can't be explained away by recording gear.

For example in the live performance link I cited: she opens with long, simple, sustained notes. These are typically pretty easy to execute on a violin and aren't tricky to pull off in terms of intonation (because your fingers have more time to position themselves) - yet the intonation is off even for those notes. Here's the link. Opening note is A; it's sharp - and when that note is played the second time, it's still sharp. When she plays that note the third time in that phrase she's corrected it though. When she descends from E to D, the D is obviously sharp. The next phrase at 2:00: when she ascends from C to E, there's a kind of enharmonic squeak just before she lands on the E - typically this is caused by not coordinating bowing and fingering cleanly. (And then the wobbly intonation carries on throughout...)

I think string players tend to notice intonation mistakes more than players of instruments with fixed-pitch keys. It is sort of a basic and crucial thing to work on, as a string player. (I studied both violin and piano; violin helped to develop ear sensitivity in a way piano couldn't, just because you had to be so conscious of each note's pitch when playing.)

Sorry if I sound nitpicky... you asked for a more detailed explanation so am trying to do that.

I have nothing against dancing musicians or dancing violinists (at one point I was taught by a violin teacher that made her students dance during recitals, believe it or not) but if the actual execution and quality of the music is affected by the physical movement from the dancing... then I feel the onus is on the performer to improve and make it work somehow. (Either by improving on music technique, so that the music isn't affected by the simultaneous dancing, or maybe by dancing/moving around less.) I cited some examples of other musicians that seem make that kind of thing work to a much better degree.

As a person though - Lindsey Stirling seems like a really nice and genuine person. If she loves what she does and inspires others to do the same, I think that in itself has tremendous value.
posted by aielen at 9:45 AM on October 28, 2014 [6 favorites]


As it was playing, my daughter's friend, 18, walked in and said "that's great". Now I'm going to have to explain why it isn't

You might want to ask yourself if you can ever remember an occasion, back when you were 18 years old, when the parent of a friend "explained" to you why the music you liked wasn't actually any good—and that actually went well.
posted by yoink at 9:52 AM on October 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


Apparently it's the fact that Lindsey picked up a Violin -- that most holy of instruments -- that causes such criticism here. If it was a Ukulele we could all just enjoy the happy kitsch without criticizing her intonation.

Me, I'm judging this by Electronic Dance Music standards. When you listen to this kind of music you hear a ton of sharp/flat notes and a ton of mindless repetition and a ton of songs that sound like near-clones of other songs. When I hear something with an actual whistle-able melody, some genuine skill at playing a "real" instrument, and some decent mixing with bass and drums, it makes me happy. I'm sure that makes me a terrible, terrible person but I'll live with it somehow.

Yeah, it's kitschy. It's novelty pop for god's sake, it's not meant to be a virtuoso classical performance. It's not my favorite thing in the universe but I bought her first album and I liked it. I don't care for the videos but I think it was 1985 last time I thought a music video added something to a song.

Also, Lindsey is 28 years old and I'm pretty sure she produces her own videos and chooses her own clothes, so the "barely 18" comment is... weird. And this:

I find these videos incredibly and ASTONISHINGLY disgusting

...is either the most ridiculous hyperbole I've ever heard, or someone has not seen very many videos on the internet.
posted by mmoncur at 10:17 AM on October 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


HuronBob: "Whenever someone recommends a movie to me, I watch it with the sound off... People really recommend terrible movies, don't they."

Oh, c'mon now, that's a disingenuous comparison. When your favorite band releases a new album do you wait for there to be a music video for every single track before you buy the whole thing on a visual medium like DVD? I'm guessing you don't. It is totally valid for someone to request that you take a song on its own merits - strictly as an auditory transmission - in a discussion about that song's quality or the artist's virtuosity.
posted by komara at 10:21 AM on October 28, 2014


For those of you who are criticizing Stirling's violin technique, welcome to the world of those of us who understand proper vocal technique, and who can find something to complain about with virtually every pop singer who has ever existed. Believe me, the fact that we're talking about a violin instead of a voice makes zero difference.

At the end of the day, it's pop music, and most people just don't care how good her technique is. I like the music and her performance. You can argue that there is a range of quality when you compare Stirling to people who do the same sort of thing, but Stirling is popular and fun and not horrible to listen to, so why be a snob?
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 10:29 AM on October 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


For those of you who are criticizing Stirling's violin technique, welcome to the world of those of us who understand proper vocal technique, and who can find something to complain about with virtually every pop singer who has ever existed.

And the problem with both kinds of complaints is that they represent a misunderstanding of genre. I love both opera and many forms of popular music, but OMG I loathe almost all opera-singers-sing-pop-songs performances. Because what makes, say, Otis Redding a "great" singer within his genre (or Janis Joplin, or Louis Armstrong, or Billie Holiday, or Tom Waits or...fill in the blank) simply has nothing at all to do with the kinds of technical mastery that makes Anna Netrebko or Susan Graham or Placido Domingo or Rene Pape great singers in their genre. Even when the genres are closer--say Broadway musicals, for example--opera singers rarely do the songs justice (although, of course, there are people who can excel in multiple genres).

Saying "this person would not be capable of performing adequately within a symphony orchestra" as some kind of universal standard of musical competence is about as meaningful as saying "why, that oboist can't dance worth a lick!" when you're listening to the symphony. You're bringing in a standard of judgment that just isn't relevant to the art form the person is engaged in.

(And I should note that I'm saying this as someone who had never heard of Stirling, watched half a video and thought "this isn't my cup of tea.")
posted by yoink at 10:51 AM on October 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


> I'm not hearing any particular musical expression other than "hey let's make a cool video with her jumping around and making cool sounds". All of which leads me to believe this person has nothing to say musically.

I've come to the conclusion over my life that the only "objective" measure of quality in art is whether it has far-reaching influence. Will Stirling influence many musicians down the line? Millions of votes point to yes. Nobody cares about intonation and nuance in this particular branch of music; only the effectiveness of the end result truly matters, and it's clear that tons of people love the sound.
posted by archagon at 10:52 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


And the problem with both kinds of complaints is that they represent a misunderstanding of genre. I love both opera and many forms of popular music, but OMG I loathe almost all opera-singers-sing-pop-songs performances.

Agreed, which is why I was careful not to say "classical vocal technique" or "opera technique". There actually is a right and wrong way to sing pop music, and voice lessons can greatly improve your ability to sing pop music (Steven Tyler benefitted from voice lessons in the 90s when he was blowing out his voice on tours, and I knew a guy that Michael Bolton studies with).

So I could tell you at length what is wrong with, say, Britney Spears' singing, but if you like her music, my opinion doesn't make any difference. [FYI, the most talented pop singer out there right now, in my opinion, is Sara Bareilles.]
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:02 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I have mixed feelings about Lindsay Stirling.

Yes, her playing really is "just okay." That's fine in a pop context... if you're talking about vocal pop. How about if a guitarist releases an instrumental album where their guitar playing is the focus? Because that's what Lindsay Stirling's recordings are. And she's no Jimmie Page.

And the rest of Stirling's music minus violin is semi-bland. I have one of her albums, and the tracks all basically sound the same. There's not a lot of impact or funkiness or creative variety. I think I'd have a better impression of her music if I didn't have the album and had only heard a song or two. (Granted, I feel the same about a lot of pop acts.)

Her videos are slick and fun, and nothing to get all freaked out about. It still strikes me as weird to see someone playing violin and dancing simultaneously. But I think that's where the entertainment is, not so much in the music itself.
posted by Foosnark at 11:07 AM on October 28, 2014


Technique doesn't just exist in a vacuum. It affects how the music actually sounds.
Not trying to be a snob - I was just responding to an earlier poster's question, trying to explain how it sounds to me, or how it might sound to some with a different music background. I cringe when I hear notes that are out of tune to my ears, not because I'm trying to be a 'snob' or to be 'critical' on purpose, but because that is my genuine gut reaction to icky intonation when I hear it.

I also involuntarily cringe when I hear or notice notes that sound too compressed or grating due to bad bowing technique, not because of the bowing technique itself but because of the sound produced from that bowing. It's almost like I know how it could sound so different and so much better - more sonorous - with better bowing, and am kinda subconsciously disappointed to hear the contrary.

I acknowledge and accept that others don't necessarily hear or notice the same, and are able to enjoy her music accordingly. And I'm happy that people like her music. Different people enjoy different things based on their own experiences and backgrounds; I probably enjoy a lot of things (like amateur youtube dances) that maybe others wouldn't like based on their own familiarity/background.

Talking about technique is a way to explain why things sound the way they do in music - how a musician's physical actions are shaping and producing the sound. I would think it's the same for people in other disciplines/artforms - e.g. writing technique shapes good prose, and perhaps writers are more aware/sensitive to what they read and are able to better elucidate why they find this or that piece of writing compelling because they are more conscious of literary devices and literary technique. And the same for dancers, visual artists, etc. Sorry if it perhaps came across as trying to criticize technique for the 'sake of technique'. Was initially hesitant to go into that much detail of explanation because it seemed like it could come across as nitpicking.
posted by aielen at 11:11 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


There actually is a right and wrong way to sing pop music

If by that you mean "there are ways that you can prevent damage to your voice" then fine. If you mean "there are right ways to sound and wrong ways to sound" then, well, no. There's ways you like and ways I like and that's about it, unfortunately. I love Bob Dylan's voice; I wouldn't want anyone to take Dylan as a model for "how to sing the right way." Anyone trying to sound like Dylan just sounds like parody or rip-off. Ditto Tom Waits or Joplin. And you like Sara Bareilles, which is great, and to me she's rather a snooze--with a voice that entirely lacks personality.
posted by yoink at 11:12 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Technique doesn't just exist in a vacuum. It affects how the music actually sounds.

Of course it does. But if someone likes how the music actually sounds then you can't persuade them not to like it by revealing ("ta da!") that they produced those sounds with the "wrong" technique.

You have every right not to like the music. You have every right to not like it because of the particular techniques used in making it. What you don't have is the right to tell other people they ought not to like it.

There isn't a great musician in the history of all popular music forms who hasn't been "tsk tsked" at for their "crude" technique--certainly from the earliest days of Jazz down to the present. It has always been irrelevant insofar as it's a claim that the people who are enjoying that music are somehow in the wrong or are somehow crude and unsophisticated for doing so.
posted by yoink at 11:17 AM on October 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Foosnark for the most part said what I was thinking. This is instrumental pop music. You're not supposed to compare it to orchestral violin any more than you should compare Taylor Swift to Placido Domingo or Bette Midler.

Perhaps it helps that I'm partially tone-deaf (I can no longer clearly distinguish half-notes), but I find most of her music enjoyable.
posted by dances with hamsters at 11:21 AM on October 28, 2014


If by that you mean "there are ways that you can prevent damage to your voice" then fine. If you mean "there are right ways to sound and wrong ways to sound" then, well, no. There's ways you like and ways I like and that's about it, unfortunately. I love Bob Dylan's voice; I wouldn't want anyone to take Dylan as a model for "how to sing the right way." Anyone trying to sound like Dylan just sounds like parody or rip-off. Ditto Tom Waits or Joplin. And you like Sara Bareilles, which is great, and to me she's rather a snooze--with a voice that entirely lacks personality.

I didn't really mean either, but I also don't think we're disagreeing. I meant that there are objectively correct and incorrect ways to vocally manufacture sound in the pop genre (which, yeah, can help prevent damage to your voice, but also helps you to sing on tune, hold notes longer, etc.). I did not mean, however, that such technique will necessarily alter how you or someone else subjectively reacts to the music. Personally, I can't listen to Bob Dylan at all, but I know many people love him. At the same time, I love Janis Joplin and (some) Tom Waits. Even though I understand objectively correct and incorrect pop vocal technique, it doesn't generally enter into my opinion of whether I like the music or the artist. Sometimes I like artists with great vocal technique, like Bareilles or Freddy Mercury or Pat Benatar or Heart, and sometimes I like artists with lousy vocal technique, like Waits or Joplin.

Except Florence + the Machine. Good lord that woman is painful to listen to.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:31 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


yoink: I don't think I've told other people that they ought not to like her music. I've tried to emphasize that I think it's great that people like her music and are inspired by her. Again: I was not trying to "criticize" technique for the sake of itself, and as I said earlier, others will and do like how the music actually sounds. If you read my post, you might find I'm not disagreeing with you?
posted by aielen at 11:38 AM on October 28, 2014


Oh god. Now Branson got ahold of dubstep.
posted by sourwookie at 12:14 PM on October 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


archagon: Will Stirling influence many musicians down the line? Millions of votes point to yes. Nobody cares about intonation and nuance in this particular branch of music

Other than some qualms that One Vote = One Musician, we agree completely.
posted by sneebler at 12:44 PM on October 28, 2014


> Other than some qualms that One Vote = One Musician, we agree completely.

Well, I take issue with the idea that a lack of intonation and nuance means that the musician has "nothing to say musically". I like classical music, and I find progressive rock — one of my favorite genres — to be massively lacking in compositional chops compared to those guys. But prog musicians make up for it in texture, improvisation, virtuosity, interesting rhythms, energy, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if people who love Stirling's music see her as saying quite a lot musically in the particular traits that her music and genre emphasize.
posted by archagon at 1:28 PM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I am among those who enjoy Stirling's music! And among those who actually prefer the audio to the video. I own both her albums. I find them pleasant to listen to.

I will grant that I like her studio work better than the live clips I've seen, but I certainly understand the appeal of seeing somebody doing two incongruous things at once. It's one reason why I keep working on singing and playing ukulele simultaneously, even though both suffer from the combination...
posted by Shmuel510 at 4:04 PM on October 28, 2014 [2 favorites]




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