The veil:Female Form of Jihad???????
February 2, 2002 10:17 AM Subscribe
um, maybe they want a good job, or to work in a field that isn't as developed in other countries, or maybe *shock* they were born here.
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge" 1 Timothy 6:20
Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you.
1 John 3:13
These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
Jude 1:19
The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
John 7:7
So, why do christians live here? they should all move somewhere else away from the our evil society right? Well, not all christians feel that strongly about all parts of the bible, or perhaps interpret things differently... also you have to remember that religions that have no interest in propagating their ideas don't last long... and no, i'm not christian, just showing examples of another religion, that the writer in fact talks about, that also believe that some aspects of our culture are "wrong" yet don't leave...this is a long response for such an ill-thought out essay but whatever.
posted by rhyax at 11:39 AM on February 2, 2002
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge" 1 Timothy 6:20
Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you.
1 John 3:13
These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
Jude 1:19
The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
John 7:7
So, why do christians live here? they should all move somewhere else away from the our evil society right? Well, not all christians feel that strongly about all parts of the bible, or perhaps interpret things differently... also you have to remember that religions that have no interest in propagating their ideas don't last long... and no, i'm not christian, just showing examples of another religion, that the writer in fact talks about, that also believe that some aspects of our culture are "wrong" yet don't leave...this is a long response for such an ill-thought out essay but whatever.
posted by rhyax at 11:39 AM on February 2, 2002
I discovered the more tolerant we become, the more we are taken advantage of.
Now there's a heartwarming philosophy.
I keep rereading this article trying to figure out what the heck her point is. It lurches from anecdote to anecdote like a high-school essay without ever making much of a point... all I can glean from this is that the author is made uncomfortable by some proselytizing islamists, and wonders why those darn muslims want to move to America if they like Islam so much.
The same site is accessible at www.rightwingnutcases.com, incidentally.
(on preview: mathowie beat me to the first quote. But I'm leaving it in mine anyway, 'cause I'm lazy.)
posted by ook at 11:39 AM on February 2, 2002
Now there's a heartwarming philosophy.
I keep rereading this article trying to figure out what the heck her point is. It lurches from anecdote to anecdote like a high-school essay without ever making much of a point... all I can glean from this is that the author is made uncomfortable by some proselytizing islamists, and wonders why those darn muslims want to move to America if they like Islam so much.
The same site is accessible at www.rightwingnutcases.com, incidentally.
(on preview: mathowie beat me to the first quote. But I'm leaving it in mine anyway, 'cause I'm lazy.)
posted by ook at 11:39 AM on February 2, 2002
WorldNetDaily is run by a fanatic Arab..... Christian, and the writer of the article appears to be of the same breed. This site used to host Clinton death watch figures and shocking-disgusting abortion pix. Just so you know.
posted by chaz at 11:53 AM on February 2, 2002
posted by chaz at 11:53 AM on February 2, 2002
In the author's defense, pointing out the dangers of an open society doesn't equate to calling for a "curtailment of freedoms". I can download bomb-making instructions faster than I can make lunch, but that statement isn't a call to regulate the net, just an acknowledgement of fact.
Other than that, the article is a bit confused and the attribution of jihad to the burka is...uhm...hyperbole. Just a wee bit. She makes the standard argument against multiculturalism: identification with "Muslim-American" rather than "American" leads to a fractured society of sub-cultures with little to no communication between them. I don't particularly agree with this, but this argument has also been thrown over the airwaves more times than Shakira, and she has a nicer belly. Pass.
She also seems fearful than an open society (open here meaning culturally open) puts itself at risk of infection by virulent memes, or something of the sort. That, unless we pound our own culture into the populace, they'll be taken over by other, more dangerous lifestyles (don't go downtown, Jimmy, you'll get gay on you). And as someone who's (just about) lost a friend to the christ-fund, I guess I can sympathize, I'm just of the opinion that our open society seems to be the best line of defense against this. You have the right to worship any God you like. And I have the right to point out what a boob I think you are for doing so.
And this is about the tamest piece I've read on WND. They're losing their "edge", man.
posted by apostasy at 12:13 PM on February 2, 2002
Other than that, the article is a bit confused and the attribution of jihad to the burka is...uhm...hyperbole. Just a wee bit. She makes the standard argument against multiculturalism: identification with "Muslim-American" rather than "American" leads to a fractured society of sub-cultures with little to no communication between them. I don't particularly agree with this, but this argument has also been thrown over the airwaves more times than Shakira, and she has a nicer belly. Pass.
She also seems fearful than an open society (open here meaning culturally open) puts itself at risk of infection by virulent memes, or something of the sort. That, unless we pound our own culture into the populace, they'll be taken over by other, more dangerous lifestyles (don't go downtown, Jimmy, you'll get gay on you). And as someone who's (just about) lost a friend to the christ-fund, I guess I can sympathize, I'm just of the opinion that our open society seems to be the best line of defense against this. You have the right to worship any God you like. And I have the right to point out what a boob I think you are for doing so.
And this is about the tamest piece I've read on WND. They're losing their "edge", man.
posted by apostasy at 12:13 PM on February 2, 2002
I note that one poster asked why do Jews live outside Israel. Perhaps because Israel did not exist as a state till 1848 and the poor Jews had to be somewhere else. Howver, since the more recent turmoil in the Middle East, many Israeli Jews have moved to the US and elsewhere in order to lead a less stressful life.
We know that the Arab-Muslim woman in Florida is fully Americanized. She feels the law does not appoy to her and so she sues. Nice id, a license without a picture of the owner's face. Note: in Saudi Arabia women are not even allowed to drive, with or without a license.
posted by Postroad at 12:32 PM on February 2, 2002
We know that the Arab-Muslim woman in Florida is fully Americanized. She feels the law does not appoy to her and so she sues. Nice id, a license without a picture of the owner's face. Note: in Saudi Arabia women are not even allowed to drive, with or without a license.
posted by Postroad at 12:32 PM on February 2, 2002
I think it's ironic that right next to the article is a link to a piece titled "Cross around neck gets woman fired?"
posted by tpoh.org at 1:17 PM on February 2, 2002
posted by tpoh.org at 1:17 PM on February 2, 2002
I found the link by checking out the new mensnews link. That I found here.
Just so you know....
posted by bunnyfire at 1:20 PM on February 2, 2002
Just so you know....
posted by bunnyfire at 1:20 PM on February 2, 2002
As others said here already, Orthodox jews and Mormons in Utah dont appear to be any less American than others. I have good reformist jewish friends brought up on orthodox households in USA and except for mild parental disgust with their children's picadillos, they seem to have perfectly healthy lives. I have also had some good Muslim friends in India who never wore Burkas, but a few of whom were very religious. They were cool people to hang around with.
It would be stupid to assume that everyone who lives under a Burqua is doing so happily just because the writer's cousins and acquaintances appeared to. There is a lot of scoietal and religious pressure on people to conform everywhere in the world and the more oppressive the society, the worse it is. It is only after those pressures are removed that the diverse heterogeneous opinions come out. I am perfectly comfortable with the idea of a burka clad Afganistan so long as that one girl who doesnt want to wear a burka is free to do so without being scared of being stoned, taunted or harassed in any other way.
posted by justlooking at 1:32 PM on February 2, 2002
It would be stupid to assume that everyone who lives under a Burqua is doing so happily just because the writer's cousins and acquaintances appeared to. There is a lot of scoietal and religious pressure on people to conform everywhere in the world and the more oppressive the society, the worse it is. It is only after those pressures are removed that the diverse heterogeneous opinions come out. I am perfectly comfortable with the idea of a burka clad Afganistan so long as that one girl who doesnt want to wear a burka is free to do so without being scared of being stoned, taunted or harassed in any other way.
posted by justlooking at 1:32 PM on February 2, 2002
what exactly is wrong with the ability to freely get information on making bombs?
I suspect it might go something like this. The freer a society, the more access it's citizens have to information and basic material goods, the more power the citizens gain, the more potential they have for acts counter to others, the more "dangerous" they become, to authorities, each other, etc.
It's very easy to fear the prospect of the common man with access to uncommon amounts of power. Nevermind that it can be just as frightening to have ungodly amounts of power in the hands of very few, and none in the hands of everyman.
Point being...hell, what is the point? People fear weaponry available to the general public because i) it becomes less abstract and more personal. The boy next door with a bomb is closer to home than the President with access to nukes. and ii) at least the President (presumably) has been trained to use all his power properly.
Heh, thread officially derailed. Sorry.
Back (sortof) on topic, does Islam have any missionary element to it? There are better answers as to why fundamentalists of any stripe would choose the U.S. over a theocratic regime, but I'm curious.
posted by apostasy at 2:19 PM on February 2, 2002
I suspect it might go something like this. The freer a society, the more access it's citizens have to information and basic material goods, the more power the citizens gain, the more potential they have for acts counter to others, the more "dangerous" they become, to authorities, each other, etc.
It's very easy to fear the prospect of the common man with access to uncommon amounts of power. Nevermind that it can be just as frightening to have ungodly amounts of power in the hands of very few, and none in the hands of everyman.
Point being...hell, what is the point? People fear weaponry available to the general public because i) it becomes less abstract and more personal. The boy next door with a bomb is closer to home than the President with access to nukes. and ii) at least the President (presumably) has been trained to use all his power properly.
Heh, thread officially derailed. Sorry.
Back (sortof) on topic, does Islam have any missionary element to it? There are better answers as to why fundamentalists of any stripe would choose the U.S. over a theocratic regime, but I'm curious.
posted by apostasy at 2:19 PM on February 2, 2002
The author seems like she is just irritated and annoyed at friends trying to remind her about her religious duties. It happens in the states all the time folks. I remember being in college, and those friendly guys in white shirts and black pants knocking on my door all the time. They said they wanted to talk and discuss the Bible with me. So I welcomed them in every time. Heck, I also gave them a CD copy of the Quran. Other Christian friends gave me ideas how to avoid these friendly folks cuz they were annoying.
Why do some Christians never go to the Church and then suddenly start going every day or Sunday. I don't understand what point she is trying to make. If the population demands, Christians, Jews and Hindus would build more Churches, Senegals and Temples. So, as the Muslim population is rising, there is need for more Mosques.
I think, this country has the most freedom to practice Islam. An Islam void of any cultural influence, void of any historical bigotry. If some one starts irritating you and makes you unconfortable, all you have to do is ask them to stop.
I am with Mathowie on this one.
posted by adnanbwp at 3:29 PM on February 2, 2002
Why do some Christians never go to the Church and then suddenly start going every day or Sunday. I don't understand what point she is trying to make. If the population demands, Christians, Jews and Hindus would build more Churches, Senegals and Temples. So, as the Muslim population is rising, there is need for more Mosques.
I think, this country has the most freedom to practice Islam. An Islam void of any cultural influence, void of any historical bigotry. If some one starts irritating you and makes you unconfortable, all you have to do is ask them to stop.
I am with Mathowie on this one.
posted by adnanbwp at 3:29 PM on February 2, 2002
What I gathered from the author of the piece was general frustration. About half a century ago it was easy in America: if your skin color was purple, you could opt to be suspicious and even hateful of anyone who wasn't purple. It's a lot easier to tell who's who on the battlefield if the opposing team's members all look the same. Shirts vs skins or blacks vs whites. What's the difference? But today things aren't that cut n dried. In fact, they never were. It's easier to live in a more ignorant perspective of reality and believe that all people unlike you are evil, but when you're dragged into illumination kicking and screaming, one gets frustrated.
This war is a war of ideals and opinions. Inalienable rights versus tyrany. It's not a war in which appearances can be used as any form of measurement. Back in World War Two we could demonize the "nazis" and the "japs" with just a few newsreels and a cartoon with Daffy Duck in it. However, anyone can wear a Burqua. Worshipping Allah is no more a guarantee that you're out to destroy known civilization than worshipping Jehovah. It's also no indication that you're not out to force people to your will.
How can propaganda compete with that?
We can't assume all muslims agree with the most extremist view of their religion, but the fact is that some of them do, and nonmuslims are completely unable to tell the difference. The opposing team is not wearing a different uniform. This is actually why in the Middle East for thousands of years jews have just hated muslims and vice versa. It's simply easier to demonize your enemy down the barrel of a gun than it is to try and understand them. Sympathize with them. I mean when you've slaved over your computer for days trying to get it to run and it still refuses to do what you want it to do, what are you most tempted to do: meditate with it, or grab a very large hammer?
Imagine if some of the Steelers ran on the playing field Superbowl Sunday wearing identical uniforms to the Patriots, and they pretended to be on the Patriots' side, accusing actual Patriots of not being Patriots, but the Steelers secretly were still expecting their team to win, and this was all part of a bigger plan to confuse the Patriots and weaken their resolve, to make it easier to defeat them. Now, maybe not all of the Steelers were in on this plan. Some of them didn't know about it. Some of them did but disagreed with the plan. Maybe the Steelers' coach came up with the plan. Maybe it was an improvised idea by a minority of the players on the team. And maybe they all agree to it but some pretend to not be in on it in order to further confuse both the Patriots and the referees, so in the end no one knows whose really at fault.
So a muslim extremist in American society can pretend to be a muslim moderate or even a nonmuslim for years, and their friends wouldn't have a clue. This is what Shrub's people mean by "sleeper agents." Double spies for the extremist terrorist cells. Of course it sounds paranoid, even of the US government to make such assumptions. And anyone who tried to blow the whistle on the whole thing would obviously be labelled loony conspiracy theorists because it's completely absurd.
If we ignore it, the sleeper agents have the element of surprise, and the terrorists could win. If we don't ignore it, we'll be forced to start a new McCarthyism which will destroy freedoms in this country, and the terrorists definitely will win, without even having to lift a finger. They'll just watch us crumble from within.
It's the perfect crime.
posted by ZachsMind at 3:36 PM on February 2, 2002
This war is a war of ideals and opinions. Inalienable rights versus tyrany. It's not a war in which appearances can be used as any form of measurement. Back in World War Two we could demonize the "nazis" and the "japs" with just a few newsreels and a cartoon with Daffy Duck in it. However, anyone can wear a Burqua. Worshipping Allah is no more a guarantee that you're out to destroy known civilization than worshipping Jehovah. It's also no indication that you're not out to force people to your will.
How can propaganda compete with that?
We can't assume all muslims agree with the most extremist view of their religion, but the fact is that some of them do, and nonmuslims are completely unable to tell the difference. The opposing team is not wearing a different uniform. This is actually why in the Middle East for thousands of years jews have just hated muslims and vice versa. It's simply easier to demonize your enemy down the barrel of a gun than it is to try and understand them. Sympathize with them. I mean when you've slaved over your computer for days trying to get it to run and it still refuses to do what you want it to do, what are you most tempted to do: meditate with it, or grab a very large hammer?
Imagine if some of the Steelers ran on the playing field Superbowl Sunday wearing identical uniforms to the Patriots, and they pretended to be on the Patriots' side, accusing actual Patriots of not being Patriots, but the Steelers secretly were still expecting their team to win, and this was all part of a bigger plan to confuse the Patriots and weaken their resolve, to make it easier to defeat them. Now, maybe not all of the Steelers were in on this plan. Some of them didn't know about it. Some of them did but disagreed with the plan. Maybe the Steelers' coach came up with the plan. Maybe it was an improvised idea by a minority of the players on the team. And maybe they all agree to it but some pretend to not be in on it in order to further confuse both the Patriots and the referees, so in the end no one knows whose really at fault.
So a muslim extremist in American society can pretend to be a muslim moderate or even a nonmuslim for years, and their friends wouldn't have a clue. This is what Shrub's people mean by "sleeper agents." Double spies for the extremist terrorist cells. Of course it sounds paranoid, even of the US government to make such assumptions. And anyone who tried to blow the whistle on the whole thing would obviously be labelled loony conspiracy theorists because it's completely absurd.
If we ignore it, the sleeper agents have the element of surprise, and the terrorists could win. If we don't ignore it, we'll be forced to start a new McCarthyism which will destroy freedoms in this country, and the terrorists definitely will win, without even having to lift a finger. They'll just watch us crumble from within.
It's the perfect crime.
posted by ZachsMind at 3:36 PM on February 2, 2002
If the Steelers are expecting to win on Sunday, secretly or otherwise, they are in for quite a shock. :)
posted by CreequeAlley at 3:50 PM on February 2, 2002
posted by CreequeAlley at 3:50 PM on February 2, 2002
darned if i trust arab neighbors and darned if i don't. good thing I am already bipolar, something like this could drive me crazy......
posted by bunnyfire at 3:54 PM on February 2, 2002
posted by bunnyfire at 3:54 PM on February 2, 2002
You're not "darned" if you don't trust your "arab neighbors", you're irrational. Statistically you are in far more danger from your bathtub, your car, and probably your morning bagel than from your "arab neighbors."
posted by sudama at 8:14 PM on February 2, 2002
posted by sudama at 8:14 PM on February 2, 2002
You're not "darned" if you don't trust your "arab neighbors", you're irrational. Statistically you are in far more danger from your bathtub, your car, and probably your morning bagel than from your "arab neighbors."
posted by sudama at 8:19 PM on February 2, 2002
posted by sudama at 8:19 PM on February 2, 2002
We can't assume all muslims agree with the most extremist view of their religion, but the fact is that some of them do, and nonmuslims are completely unable to tell the difference.
Seems pretty easy to me.
This is actually why in the Middle East for thousands of years jews have just hated muslims and vice versa
Not at all true.
posted by chaz at 8:50 PM on February 2, 2002
Seems pretty easy to me.
This is actually why in the Middle East for thousands of years jews have just hated muslims and vice versa
Not at all true.
posted by chaz at 8:50 PM on February 2, 2002
Well, I don't know about the morning bagel, but I have been buying my Subway sandwiches from "arab neighbors" and they haven't poisoned me yet.
Oh, and the guy across the street is a college professor from Iran. (I know, they are Persian, not arab....)
He is still a really nice guy. Whole neighborhood loves him. He lost a promotion because of his ethnic origin. Stinks, don't it.
posted by bunnyfire at 3:30 AM on February 3, 2002
Oh, and the guy across the street is a college professor from Iran. (I know, they are Persian, not arab....)
He is still a really nice guy. Whole neighborhood loves him. He lost a promotion because of his ethnic origin. Stinks, don't it.
posted by bunnyfire at 3:30 AM on February 3, 2002
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What a load of religious intolerant hooey. It's the same argument made by every person I know openly supporting things like racial profiling. "If we did it already, 9-11 would have never happened!" they shout.
How can this writer praise the freedom the US provides in the beginning of her essay, then go on to say it's too free? Haven't we heard the famous Thomas Jefferson phrase "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance?" People who want to take freedom away from others don't deserve the freedoms themselves, and don't understand what it means to be free in this society.
As for the writer's other points, why do Mormons live outside of Utah? Why do Jews live outside of Israel? Why does any of that matter?
I'm sorry to hear this writer lost a friend to fundamentalist religion, I know I've lost a few dozen to the same thing (though it was christian fundamentalism, which is just as bad in my mind), but it's no reason to say freedoms in this country should be curtailed, simply because people are Muslim.
posted by mathowie at 11:34 AM on February 2, 2002