My Cousin Oskaar
November 3, 2014 6:50 AM Subscribe
This is my cousin Oskaar. I told him WA [Western Australia] is about to vote on daylight savings, and that most people would vote against it. About a week later, Oskaar sent me this.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- Brandon Blatcher
SPOILER: Oscaar lives in Iceland and has some OPINIONS about maintaining proper respect for sunlight.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 6:52 AM on November 3, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by Narrative Priorities at 6:52 AM on November 3, 2014 [8 favorites]
Hahaha, that was a treat.
posted by teh_boy at 6:54 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by teh_boy at 6:54 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Haaaaaaahahahahaha.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:54 AM on November 3, 2014
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:54 AM on November 3, 2014
Stalone. Like the Cliffhanger movie. Priceless.
posted by The Bellman at 6:55 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by The Bellman at 6:55 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Give this guy a 1/2 hour talk show right now.
posted by fluffycreature at 6:55 AM on November 3, 2014 [17 favorites]
The tag should be "daylightsaving." DAYLIGHT SAVING! IT'S NOT PLURAL!!
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:57 AM on November 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:57 AM on November 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
Honestly, he lives in a place called ICEland...! If he's unhappy he should move to SUNland, or TROPICSland, or LIGHTland....
Whiner....
posted by HuronBob at 6:57 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Whiner....
posted by HuronBob at 6:57 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
What accent is that? It starts off Irish and then turns Russian. Is that a real Icelandic accent?
posted by Brodiggitty at 7:01 AM on November 3, 2014
posted by Brodiggitty at 7:01 AM on November 3, 2014
Honestly, he lives in a place called ICEland...! If he's unhappy he should move to SUNland, or TROPICSland, or LIGHTland....
Or GREENland?
posted by clawsoon at 7:02 AM on November 3, 2014 [13 favorites]
Or GREENland?
posted by clawsoon at 7:02 AM on November 3, 2014 [13 favorites]
Honestly, he lives in a place called ICEland...! If he's unhappy he should move to SUNland, or TROPICSland, or LIGHTland....
He probably went to a place he heard about called Greenland, and ever since then has had the attitude "fool me once, shame on you fool me twice..."
posted by TedW at 7:02 AM on November 3, 2014 [21 favorites]
He probably went to a place he heard about called Greenland, and ever since then has had the attitude "fool me once, shame on you fool me twice..."
posted by TedW at 7:02 AM on November 3, 2014 [21 favorites]
He's got a point is all I say.
posted by Namlit at 7:02 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Namlit at 7:02 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
No-one with easy access to roast puffin and whale on a stick should ever be that irate.
posted by sobarel at 7:04 AM on November 3, 2014
posted by sobarel at 7:04 AM on November 3, 2014
He's probably just vitamin D deficient.
posted by fordiebianco at 7:05 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by fordiebianco at 7:05 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Maybe I am missing something, but with or without day saving time, there is still the same amount of daylight, the only difference is during what hours. Right?
Oskaar is a funny guy though. I would vote for whatever he is pushing.
posted by 724A at 7:06 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oskaar is a funny guy though. I would vote for whatever he is pushing.
posted by 724A at 7:06 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
That was fabulous
posted by brilliantine at 7:09 AM on November 3, 2014
posted by brilliantine at 7:09 AM on November 3, 2014
He's probably just vitamin D deficient.
The fish shit twice a day should deal with that, no?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:09 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
The fish shit twice a day should deal with that, no?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:09 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
The question in these parts is rather, what daylight is there to save to start with.
posted by Namlit at 7:11 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Namlit at 7:11 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wish Oskaar were my cousin.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:13 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 7:13 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
Oskaar and I both have very strong feelings on daylight savings.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:20 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:20 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Maybe I am missing something, but with or without day saving time, there is still the same amount of daylight, the only difference is during what hours. Right?
I have heard (but not confirmed) that during the Second World War when Canada was considering two hours of DST rather than the standard one, the PM received an irate letter of protest from a gardener insisting that the flowers would not survive with two hours less of sunlight per day.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:23 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
I have heard (but not confirmed) that during the Second World War when Canada was considering two hours of DST rather than the standard one, the PM received an irate letter of protest from a gardener insisting that the flowers would not survive with two hours less of sunlight per day.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:23 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
Keeps me from going funny in the head.
Time to up the dosage!
posted by jimmythefish at 7:23 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Time to up the dosage!
posted by jimmythefish at 7:23 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
His next video will be about the Icelandic astronomers' lament on June 21 when sunset is at midnight and sunrise is 2:58AM
posted by achrise at 7:27 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by achrise at 7:27 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
DST is just a way for morning people to trick the rest of us into coming into work an hour earlier every day.
The trick worked.
posted by clawsoon at 7:28 AM on November 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
The trick worked.
posted by clawsoon at 7:28 AM on November 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
"Stallone! Stallooooooooooone!" New house catchphrase, I fear.
posted by alexordave at 7:33 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by alexordave at 7:33 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
My brother lives in Perth, WA, and I live in the west of Scotland. We have that "You want to see what one of OUR beaches looks like?" conversation several times a year. ("It's not monochrome, that's the ACTUAL COLOUR.")
I am very grateful for every single minute of the... 7?... hours of daylight we get in December, though.
posted by Catseye at 7:36 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
I am very grateful for every single minute of the... 7?... hours of daylight we get in December, though.
posted by Catseye at 7:36 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Something's fishy.
Sun & Moon Times in Reyjavik for November.
That's no help for Oskaar : April 1 gets 13+ hours of sunlight; April 30 gets almost 17.
When could this video have been made, then? December 21, 2008 would have been the most recent solstice prior to that referendum, and on that day there were 4:06:54 hours, minutes, and seconds of daylight in Reyjavik, which is pretty close to Oskaar's "three hours of daylight." It's a slight exaggeration in support of his position, and that's fine, for extremism in defense of daylight is no vice. Unfortunately, sunset that day was 3:30, so it was unlikely to have been pitch dark at 3:00 pm, as Oskaar claims, and that's an egregious lie. It's also the one that prompted me to check the sunrise and sunset tables.
posted by notyou at 7:40 AM on November 3, 2014 [15 favorites]
Sun & Moon Times in Reyjavik for November.
Sunrise Today: 9:17 AM↑ 125° SoutheastA referendum on whether or not WA should switch to DST was last held in 2009, apparently? Okay, and that vote was held on May 16. This video is somewhat dated, but whatever. Let's be charitable and say Oskaar made his video for his cousin in April. Checking the tables...
Sunset Today: 5:04 PM↑ 235° Southwest
That's no help for Oskaar : April 1 gets 13+ hours of sunlight; April 30 gets almost 17.
When could this video have been made, then? December 21, 2008 would have been the most recent solstice prior to that referendum, and on that day there were 4:06:54 hours, minutes, and seconds of daylight in Reyjavik, which is pretty close to Oskaar's "three hours of daylight." It's a slight exaggeration in support of his position, and that's fine, for extremism in defense of daylight is no vice. Unfortunately, sunset that day was 3:30, so it was unlikely to have been pitch dark at 3:00 pm, as Oskaar claims, and that's an egregious lie. It's also the one that prompted me to check the sunrise and sunset tables.
posted by notyou at 7:40 AM on November 3, 2014 [15 favorites]
Oskaar Truthers rally round your flag, notyou.
posted by Naberius at 7:45 AM on November 3, 2014 [25 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 7:45 AM on November 3, 2014 [25 favorites]
I will admit: I'm not particularly fussed as to whether this is a "real" video or not. It was entertaining, there really isn't much winter sunlight in Iceland....EH.....
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:46 AM on November 3, 2014
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:46 AM on November 3, 2014
Some would call it..... "comedy"
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 7:47 AM on November 3, 2014 [23 favorites]
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 7:47 AM on November 3, 2014 [23 favorites]
What accent is that? It starts off Irish and then turns Russian. Is that a real Icelandic accent?
It's fake, is what it is. Half Borat, half schlocky vampire, zero Icelandic.
So, so obviously fake.
And DST is bullshit. Vote against, Western Australia!
posted by Sys Rq at 7:49 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
It's fake, is what it is. Half Borat, half schlocky vampire, zero Icelandic.
So, so obviously fake.
And DST is bullshit. Vote against, Western Australia!
posted by Sys Rq at 7:49 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
Will need icelandic person to weigh in on whether this is a loving fake or a badly done one. I laughed but I am on record as a degenerate who laughs at all European stereotypes.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:49 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:49 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Maybe I am missing something, but with or without day saving time, there is still the same amount of daylight, the only difference is during what hours. Right?
The idea of DST is simple. The day gets longer and shorter, but does so in terms of Solar noon -- when the sun is at it's highest point in the sky. Sunrise *and* sunset move closer to solar noon during winter, and away from summer. There's some picky details* that generate a bit of noise, of course.
So, in Chicago, in late June, around the summer solstice, you have 15 hours and 14 minutes of sun -- defined as when any part of the sun is above the ideal horizon. In late December, around the winter solstice, you have 9 hours and 10 minutes of sunlight -- basically, six hours less sunlight. Solar noon in Chicago tends to be around 11:48-53AM in Chicago on Dec. 21. Sunrise is at 0715, 7:15AM sunset is at 1622 -- 4:22PM. At the summer solstice, the day is, for all intents, six hours longer. So, we move sunrise back three hours, and sunrise ahead three hours, and we get sunrise in June at 0415, 4:15AM, and sunset at 1922, 7:22PM.**
Well. That's kind of sucky, isn't it? Sun's up at 4:15 AM. That's not useful to the vast majority of the people. Sets at, for all intents, 7:30PM. Wouldn't it be nice if we could change the center point, take some of that really early daylight and move it to the evening?
Well, that's daylight savings. Instead of solar noon being (ideally) near local noon, we move it an hour forward, to local 1PM. This moves the sunrise later, to 5:15AM, and the sunset later as well, to 8:22PM. Hey, that's nicer. Still lots of light in the morning, and we get more light after work. Win!
So, let's move just a bit east, shall we? Welcome to Fort Wayne, IN. It has about the same amount of daylight as Chicago, 15 hours and change in the high summer, 9 hours and change in the dead of winter. But something's different. Instead of the sun rising at 0415 standard time, it comes up at 0508, and it sets at 2008, rather that 1922. We haven't moved very far at all, about 150 miles. Why the big difference?
Different noon points. Fort Wayne is in the Eastern time zone, Chicago is Central. Fort Wayne's local noon is one hour ahead, exactly, of Chicago's. This means while solar noon in Chicago tends to be just before local noon, standard time, solar noon tends to be around 12:45 standard time in Fort Wayne. The effect of this is that Fort Wayne has much later sunrises and sunsets, as measured by the local clock, than Chicago does.
When we go to DST and move the local noon up an hour, that makes sunrise in Fort Wayne during high summer happen at 0608, 6:08AM, and sunset is 9:16PM. Without daylight savings, Fort Wayne sees something very close to Chicago's sunsets and sunrises with daylight savings.
If you live in the far west of a time zone, it's as if you're living in Daylight Savings Time all the time compared to the far east of your time zone. It gets very weird in the parts of the Eastern time zone are *west* of Chicago, where local noon is more than an hour ahead, despite the solar noon being almost the same. Those areas are also further north, resulting in sunsets after 10PM! (Check Houghton, MI, for example)
So. DST moves a morning hours of sun to the evening as seen on the local clock. It doesn't change the length of the day, it just moves when, on the civil clock, where they occur, and it moves them equally. On the eastern edges of the timezones, this means morning in summer is merely annoyingly early. On the western edges, you get sun until well after 9PM.
So, why not keep it all year round? Well, in Chicago, at the height of winter, you'd be seeing sunrises after 8AM. Since many people -- many children, as a matter of fact -- are traveling before 8AM, that means they're moving in darker skies. Sunset wouldn't be helped much -- it would set at 5:22PM, so we still wouldn't have any evening sunlight. So, we switch back to Standard time, move the morning sunrise back closer to 7AM, and there you go.
The questions you need to ask is "when do I want sunlight?" If you prefer that you have less evening sunlight and more morning sunlight, you don't want daylight savings. If you prefer more evening and less morning, you do want DST. If you'd rather have some sunlight in the morning year round, you either have to keep standard time year round, or switch.
For me? In Chicago? I want all that sun in the evening. Hell, I want *double* daylight savings time in the summer. I'm good with 6AM sunrise in June, if I get 9:30PM sunsets. I wouldn't object to switching to the Eastern time zone, which would accomplish the exact same thing, then throwing DST on top of that to get the exact same effect.
* In particular, the fact that the Earth's orbit is an ellipse rather than a circle. The motion of the sun at solar noon compared to local noon can be described by the Equation of time and a graph of such is the Analemma.
** The actual times are 4:15AM and 8:29PM -- in Chicago, there's actually a bit more than six hours of daylight at the summer solstice.
posted by eriko at 8:04 AM on November 3, 2014 [177 favorites]
The idea of DST is simple. The day gets longer and shorter, but does so in terms of Solar noon -- when the sun is at it's highest point in the sky. Sunrise *and* sunset move closer to solar noon during winter, and away from summer. There's some picky details* that generate a bit of noise, of course.
So, in Chicago, in late June, around the summer solstice, you have 15 hours and 14 minutes of sun -- defined as when any part of the sun is above the ideal horizon. In late December, around the winter solstice, you have 9 hours and 10 minutes of sunlight -- basically, six hours less sunlight. Solar noon in Chicago tends to be around 11:48-53AM in Chicago on Dec. 21. Sunrise is at 0715, 7:15AM sunset is at 1622 -- 4:22PM. At the summer solstice, the day is, for all intents, six hours longer. So, we move sunrise back three hours, and sunrise ahead three hours, and we get sunrise in June at 0415, 4:15AM, and sunset at 1922, 7:22PM.**
Well. That's kind of sucky, isn't it? Sun's up at 4:15 AM. That's not useful to the vast majority of the people. Sets at, for all intents, 7:30PM. Wouldn't it be nice if we could change the center point, take some of that really early daylight and move it to the evening?
Well, that's daylight savings. Instead of solar noon being (ideally) near local noon, we move it an hour forward, to local 1PM. This moves the sunrise later, to 5:15AM, and the sunset later as well, to 8:22PM. Hey, that's nicer. Still lots of light in the morning, and we get more light after work. Win!
So, let's move just a bit east, shall we? Welcome to Fort Wayne, IN. It has about the same amount of daylight as Chicago, 15 hours and change in the high summer, 9 hours and change in the dead of winter. But something's different. Instead of the sun rising at 0415 standard time, it comes up at 0508, and it sets at 2008, rather that 1922. We haven't moved very far at all, about 150 miles. Why the big difference?
Different noon points. Fort Wayne is in the Eastern time zone, Chicago is Central. Fort Wayne's local noon is one hour ahead, exactly, of Chicago's. This means while solar noon in Chicago tends to be just before local noon, standard time, solar noon tends to be around 12:45 standard time in Fort Wayne. The effect of this is that Fort Wayne has much later sunrises and sunsets, as measured by the local clock, than Chicago does.
When we go to DST and move the local noon up an hour, that makes sunrise in Fort Wayne during high summer happen at 0608, 6:08AM, and sunset is 9:16PM. Without daylight savings, Fort Wayne sees something very close to Chicago's sunsets and sunrises with daylight savings.
If you live in the far west of a time zone, it's as if you're living in Daylight Savings Time all the time compared to the far east of your time zone. It gets very weird in the parts of the Eastern time zone are *west* of Chicago, where local noon is more than an hour ahead, despite the solar noon being almost the same. Those areas are also further north, resulting in sunsets after 10PM! (Check Houghton, MI, for example)
So. DST moves a morning hours of sun to the evening as seen on the local clock. It doesn't change the length of the day, it just moves when, on the civil clock, where they occur, and it moves them equally. On the eastern edges of the timezones, this means morning in summer is merely annoyingly early. On the western edges, you get sun until well after 9PM.
So, why not keep it all year round? Well, in Chicago, at the height of winter, you'd be seeing sunrises after 8AM. Since many people -- many children, as a matter of fact -- are traveling before 8AM, that means they're moving in darker skies. Sunset wouldn't be helped much -- it would set at 5:22PM, so we still wouldn't have any evening sunlight. So, we switch back to Standard time, move the morning sunrise back closer to 7AM, and there you go.
The questions you need to ask is "when do I want sunlight?" If you prefer that you have less evening sunlight and more morning sunlight, you don't want daylight savings. If you prefer more evening and less morning, you do want DST. If you'd rather have some sunlight in the morning year round, you either have to keep standard time year round, or switch.
For me? In Chicago? I want all that sun in the evening. Hell, I want *double* daylight savings time in the summer. I'm good with 6AM sunrise in June, if I get 9:30PM sunsets. I wouldn't object to switching to the Eastern time zone, which would accomplish the exact same thing, then throwing DST on top of that to get the exact same effect.
* In particular, the fact that the Earth's orbit is an ellipse rather than a circle. The motion of the sun at solar noon compared to local noon can be described by the Equation of time and a graph of such is the Analemma.
** The actual times are 4:15AM and 8:29PM -- in Chicago, there's actually a bit more than six hours of daylight at the summer solstice.
posted by eriko at 8:04 AM on November 3, 2014 [177 favorites]
Whoa....
posted by Naberius at 8:15 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Naberius at 8:15 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
You all are assuming he has a flat southern horizon. Reykjavik has mountains to the south and in the middle of summer the SUN IS ONLY THREE INCHES ABOVE THE HORIZON AT NOON. So it is completely VAMPIRE CITY during the winter.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:17 AM on November 3, 2014 [18 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:17 AM on November 3, 2014 [18 favorites]
Poor Oskaar.
He obviously needs my help.
LET ME HELP YOU, OSKAAR!
posted by droplet at 8:26 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
He obviously needs my help.
LET ME HELP YOU, OSKAAR!
posted by droplet at 8:26 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
still laughing..
posted by zenwerewolf at 8:28 AM on November 3, 2014
posted by zenwerewolf at 8:28 AM on November 3, 2014
Stalåne!
posted by Pyrogenesis at 8:29 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 8:29 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
There is also a big difference between the times people are quoting above (absolute sunset times or astronomical twilight) and apparent twilight/darkness/lack of sun. Civil and Nautical Twilight are better indicators.
I'm just in the Netherlands and boy howdy let me tell you that come Christmas if it's a completely overcast day it seems like you get something resembling light from about 0900-1530.
posted by digitalprimate at 8:31 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm just in the Netherlands and boy howdy let me tell you that come Christmas if it's a completely overcast day it seems like you get something resembling light from about 0900-1530.
posted by digitalprimate at 8:31 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Totally serious question now: did anyone actually need eriko's explanation? Because, if so, that would explain so much.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Can't we please forget about the children? I need my sleep. When I see people jogging in the morning I just want to yell at them "what's wrong with your braaaain???!!!"
posted by Yowser at 8:45 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Yowser at 8:45 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
> Totally serious question now: did anyone actually need eriko's explanation
Yes: my cats, who don't fucking understand that Meow O'Clock is NOT NOW it's in ONE HOUR so LET ME SLEEP.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:50 AM on November 3, 2014 [32 favorites]
Yes: my cats, who don't fucking understand that Meow O'Clock is NOT NOW it's in ONE HOUR so LET ME SLEEP.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:50 AM on November 3, 2014 [32 favorites]
Totally serious question now: did anyone actually need eriko's explanation? Because, if so, that would explain so much.--Ivan Fyodorovich
eriko's explanation was awesome, and we all need more awesome.
posted by eye of newt at 8:54 AM on November 3, 2014 [12 favorites]
eriko's explanation was awesome, and we all need more awesome.
posted by eye of newt at 8:54 AM on November 3, 2014 [12 favorites]
Yes: my cats, who don't fucking understand that Meow O'Clock is NOT NOW it's in ONE HOUR so LET ME SLEEP.
That also applies to dinner, dammit!
posted by jim in austin at 9:01 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
That also applies to dinner, dammit!
posted by jim in austin at 9:01 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
did anyone actually need eriko's explanation?
Like you, I have studied in ancient greek the actual proofs that allow us to make these types of public policy decisions and I still needed his explanation to keep track of why what how and where DST is doing what it do.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:05 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Like you, I have studied in ancient greek the actual proofs that allow us to make these types of public policy decisions and I still needed his explanation to keep track of why what how and where DST is doing what it do.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:05 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
eye of newt: “eriko's explanation was awesome, and we all need more awesome.”
eriko's "explanation" was "awesome" if you are a robot who doesn't know anything about humans beyond "humans like evening sun!" and who also doesn't quite understand the definition of "awesome."
eriko: “For me? In Chicago? I want all that sun in the evening. Hell, I want *double* daylight savings time in the summer. I'm good with 6AM sunrise in June, if I get 9:30PM sunsets. I wouldn't object to switching to the Eastern time zone, which would accomplish the exact same thing, then throwing DST on top of that to get the exact same effect.”
First, this makes little sense unless you don't care about morning light – you just said that this would make the sun rise after 8am at winter solstice, and checking the numbers myself I can confirm that's the case – the sun would come up at almost 8:30 on December 21 if you did this.
I guess you're okay with that. You said this was your personal sense of it, so that's fine.
But second – why stop there? Why not make the time exact on summer solstice, and make the Daylight Saving shift 45 or 46 minutes instead of an hour? Or – here's an idea – let's go back to the Roman system, and say sunrise every day all year round is 6am, and sunset is 8pm. The length of hours will wax and wane, and setting clocks will be hell, but at least you'll get home exactly three "hours" before sunset ever day all year round.
I mean, if we really don't care about the regularity of the lives of human beings, or convenience; if we really don't mind causing massive and probably irreparable damage to the way our society functions; if we really feel fine about pouring literally billions of dollars into a hole and burning it just so we can stare at the sun for a little while after work – then why not, eh?
posted by koeselitz at 9:18 AM on November 3, 2014 [10 favorites]
eriko's "explanation" was "awesome" if you are a robot who doesn't know anything about humans beyond "humans like evening sun!" and who also doesn't quite understand the definition of "awesome."
eriko: “For me? In Chicago? I want all that sun in the evening. Hell, I want *double* daylight savings time in the summer. I'm good with 6AM sunrise in June, if I get 9:30PM sunsets. I wouldn't object to switching to the Eastern time zone, which would accomplish the exact same thing, then throwing DST on top of that to get the exact same effect.”
First, this makes little sense unless you don't care about morning light – you just said that this would make the sun rise after 8am at winter solstice, and checking the numbers myself I can confirm that's the case – the sun would come up at almost 8:30 on December 21 if you did this.
I guess you're okay with that. You said this was your personal sense of it, so that's fine.
But second – why stop there? Why not make the time exact on summer solstice, and make the Daylight Saving shift 45 or 46 minutes instead of an hour? Or – here's an idea – let's go back to the Roman system, and say sunrise every day all year round is 6am, and sunset is 8pm. The length of hours will wax and wane, and setting clocks will be hell, but at least you'll get home exactly three "hours" before sunset ever day all year round.
I mean, if we really don't care about the regularity of the lives of human beings, or convenience; if we really don't mind causing massive and probably irreparable damage to the way our society functions; if we really feel fine about pouring literally billions of dollars into a hole and burning it just so we can stare at the sun for a little while after work – then why not, eh?
posted by koeselitz at 9:18 AM on November 3, 2014 [10 favorites]
I am unclear if you're mad at Daylight Saving, or at eriko, or at eriko's comment, or at Ra. Maybe some fish poop would help.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:20 AM on November 3, 2014 [30 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:20 AM on November 3, 2014 [30 favorites]
I agree with koeselitz, the best thing to do would be to abolish standardized time completely, although I have a slightly different suggestion than Roman shrinking hours. After all, we all have smart phones capable of tracking solar noon in any particular location - "The work day starts 1 hour after sunrise at these coordinates, and ends 8 hours later."
posted by muddgirl at 9:21 AM on November 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 9:21 AM on November 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
Oh, and by the way, for those people who think Daylight Saving is actually brilliant, here's one last thought:
Why doesn't anyone ever think about asking employers to fix their schedules, if they're so het up about seeing the sun after work? Society can have a regular and rational timekeeping system and do what they want at the hours they want, you know. These things are not mutually exclusive.
Daylight Saving was a fine idea in a time when very few people had (much less relied upon) accurate timepieces. Then, it was relatively simple to ask every town to change the three clocks they had a couple of times a year. In an era when every human is surrounded by devices designed to count and keep track of minutes and seconds, and when processes based on those sums are essential to our existence, thinking we can just go around the house changing the clocks back is a terrible idea.
I imagine I'm preaching to a choir here, but it needs to be said. Daylight Saving is a terrible, terrible idea.
posted by koeselitz at 9:23 AM on November 3, 2014 [12 favorites]
Why doesn't anyone ever think about asking employers to fix their schedules, if they're so het up about seeing the sun after work? Society can have a regular and rational timekeeping system and do what they want at the hours they want, you know. These things are not mutually exclusive.
Daylight Saving was a fine idea in a time when very few people had (much less relied upon) accurate timepieces. Then, it was relatively simple to ask every town to change the three clocks they had a couple of times a year. In an era when every human is surrounded by devices designed to count and keep track of minutes and seconds, and when processes based on those sums are essential to our existence, thinking we can just go around the house changing the clocks back is a terrible idea.
I imagine I'm preaching to a choir here, but it needs to be said. Daylight Saving is a terrible, terrible idea.
posted by koeselitz at 9:23 AM on November 3, 2014 [12 favorites]
So, why not keep it all year round?
Because then petty tyrants who love fucking with my internal clock will have no way to get their jollies ?
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:24 AM on November 3, 2014
Because then petty tyrants who love fucking with my internal clock will have no way to get their jollies ?
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:24 AM on November 3, 2014
if we really don't care about the regularity of the lives of human beings, or convenience;
OK I am with you so far.
if we really don't mind causing massive and probably irreparable damage to the way our society functions;
Right, still OK.
if we really feel fine about pouring literally billions of dollars into a hole and burning it just so we can stare at the sun for a little while after work
Yeah OK that still sounds ... wait a second. Are you being sarcastic??
posted by 1adam12 at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
OK I am with you so far.
if we really don't mind causing massive and probably irreparable damage to the way our society functions;
Right, still OK.
if we really feel fine about pouring literally billions of dollars into a hole and burning it just so we can stare at the sun for a little while after work
Yeah OK that still sounds ... wait a second. Are you being sarcastic??
posted by 1adam12 at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
eriko has won me over to Daylight Savings Time, though I still think it should be called Daylight Rearrangement Time.
posted by shothotbot at 9:29 AM on November 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by shothotbot at 9:29 AM on November 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
I was really expecting an extra hour in the bar on Saturday night and then they closed at what was now 2:00 AM. If you're not even going to let me use the extra hour to drink, what's the point?
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:34 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:34 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
So if this guy is faking his accent, what does an actual Icelandic accent sound like? This nice girl can show you.
posted by emjaybee at 9:39 AM on November 3, 2014
posted by emjaybee at 9:39 AM on November 3, 2014
Daylight Saving was a fine idea in a time when very few people had (much less relied upon) accurate timepieces. Then, it was relatively simple to ask every town to change the three clocks they had a couple of times a year.
So your argument is that in the US in 1917, before daylight savings time was enacted the following year, there were generally three timepieces per town and personal ownership of timepieces was rare.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:44 AM on November 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
So your argument is that in the US in 1917, before daylight savings time was enacted the following year, there were generally three timepieces per town and personal ownership of timepieces was rare.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:44 AM on November 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
Morning people can bite it.
Most of the the time we get to ourselves is evening time. I mean, I suppose there are weirdos who get up at 4AM to tinker in their workshops or yards, but that's wrong--it means you constantly have to be aware of the clock, and there is no flexibility as to when you stop if you get into a good flow, whereas in the evening you can set your bedtime later and make up for it some other time.
Plus, do you really want to get filthy, sweaty and physically tired doing some sort of work around your place and then have to go sit in a cube for eight hours?
posted by maxwelton at 9:57 AM on November 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
Most of the the time we get to ourselves is evening time. I mean, I suppose there are weirdos who get up at 4AM to tinker in their workshops or yards, but that's wrong--it means you constantly have to be aware of the clock, and there is no flexibility as to when you stop if you get into a good flow, whereas in the evening you can set your bedtime later and make up for it some other time.
Plus, do you really want to get filthy, sweaty and physically tired doing some sort of work around your place and then have to go sit in a cube for eight hours?
posted by maxwelton at 9:57 AM on November 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
Why doesn't anyone ever think about asking employers to fix their schedules, if they're so het up about seeing the sun after work? Society can have a regular and rational timekeeping system and do what they want at the hours they want, you know. These things are not mutually exclusive.
I'm not pro Daylight Saving, but this is kind of ridiculous. We'll just ask the restaurant industry to ensure that the lunch rush happens an hour earlier, shall we? We'll decide, collectively, to get our employers to change our schedules when we can't even reliably get them to pay a living wage or provide safe working conditions.
posted by ODiV at 10:00 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm not pro Daylight Saving, but this is kind of ridiculous. We'll just ask the restaurant industry to ensure that the lunch rush happens an hour earlier, shall we? We'll decide, collectively, to get our employers to change our schedules when we can't even reliably get them to pay a living wage or provide safe working conditions.
posted by ODiV at 10:00 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm having trouble understanding koeselitz's complaints against DST on the basis of people wanting regularity when his proposed solution is for people's working/leisure hours be much more irregular.
And I didn't get any real answers to my question. There was a lot of extra stuff in erko's comment that involves the granularity of time zones, but the essence of the utility of DST isn't dependent upon it. You could have a totally (socially) unworkable continuously, geographically varying time standard that's controlled electronically according to GPS data (say, performed by your watch) but, still, for some latitudes, DST would remain useful.
Bottom line, it makes no sense to have a part of daylight be when the majority of the population is sleeping if there's also an active nighttime period for which it could be swapped. And koeselitz's solution isn't really a solution because it so happens that the majority of the human race is predictably diurnal. The majority is going to orient their daily activities around their natural sleep schedule. So, rather than a free-for-all that koeselitz envisions, the only real alternative is for everyone, or that majority, to en masse adjust their schedules according to how the daylight hours change over the course of the year. Specifically, get up earlier in the summer.
And you know what would happen then? If four-fifths of all shops started opening an hour earlier sometime in spring? Or all of them did? By convention or by law? Then a whole lot of the same people who bitch about the weirdness of DST would be bitching about the weirdness of all the shop's hours changing twice a year.
The solution that would actually make everyone happy would be a future society where all timekeeping is universally adjusted continuously throughout the day, every day, such that daylight hours are centered on peak human activity. That is, pretty much what DST accomplishes, but the adjustment is imperceptibly small, happening continuously throughout the year. Then we could have predictable regularity of active-period scheduling but with no disruptions of people's sleep cycles.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:00 AM on November 3, 2014
And I didn't get any real answers to my question. There was a lot of extra stuff in erko's comment that involves the granularity of time zones, but the essence of the utility of DST isn't dependent upon it. You could have a totally (socially) unworkable continuously, geographically varying time standard that's controlled electronically according to GPS data (say, performed by your watch) but, still, for some latitudes, DST would remain useful.
Bottom line, it makes no sense to have a part of daylight be when the majority of the population is sleeping if there's also an active nighttime period for which it could be swapped. And koeselitz's solution isn't really a solution because it so happens that the majority of the human race is predictably diurnal. The majority is going to orient their daily activities around their natural sleep schedule. So, rather than a free-for-all that koeselitz envisions, the only real alternative is for everyone, or that majority, to en masse adjust their schedules according to how the daylight hours change over the course of the year. Specifically, get up earlier in the summer.
And you know what would happen then? If four-fifths of all shops started opening an hour earlier sometime in spring? Or all of them did? By convention or by law? Then a whole lot of the same people who bitch about the weirdness of DST would be bitching about the weirdness of all the shop's hours changing twice a year.
The solution that would actually make everyone happy would be a future society where all timekeeping is universally adjusted continuously throughout the day, every day, such that daylight hours are centered on peak human activity. That is, pretty much what DST accomplishes, but the adjustment is imperceptibly small, happening continuously throughout the year. Then we could have predictable regularity of active-period scheduling but with no disruptions of people's sleep cycles.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:00 AM on November 3, 2014
Plus, do you really want to get filthy, sweaty and physically tired doing some sort of work around your place and then have to go sit in a cube for eight hours?
Ideally there would be no sitting in cubes though.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:00 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ideally there would be no sitting in cubes though.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:00 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Utterly at a loss to understand why anyone gets worked up about DST at all. It's an hour. You likely lose more than that watching cat videos on a given day.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 10:07 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 10:07 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
the fucks am dis?
posted by boo_radley at 10:17 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by boo_radley at 10:17 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
The worst thing about DST is trying to remember how to change the clock on my microwave. It happens every fucking year and you'd think I would maybe write it down somewhere to make my life easier but if there is one single virtue by which I live my life it is that I will never learn from my mistakes, especially if they helpfully fix themselves within 6 months.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:22 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:22 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
me: “Why doesn't anyone ever think about asking employers to fix their schedules, if they're so het up about seeing the sun after work? Society can have a regular and rational timekeeping system and do what they want at the hours they want, you know. These things are not mutually exclusive.”
ODiV: “I'm not pro Daylight Saving, but this is kind of ridiculous. We'll just ask the restaurant industry to ensure that the lunch rush happens an hour earlier, shall we? We'll decide, collectively, to get our employers to change our schedules when we can't even reliably get them to pay a living wage or provide safe working conditions.”
We're talking about half a billion dollars every year. You want living wages or safe working conditions? I'm willing to bet a lot of industries would be happy to provide those in exchange for killing DST.
posted by koeselitz at 10:22 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
ODiV: “I'm not pro Daylight Saving, but this is kind of ridiculous. We'll just ask the restaurant industry to ensure that the lunch rush happens an hour earlier, shall we? We'll decide, collectively, to get our employers to change our schedules when we can't even reliably get them to pay a living wage or provide safe working conditions.”
We're talking about half a billion dollars every year. You want living wages or safe working conditions? I'm willing to bet a lot of industries would be happy to provide those in exchange for killing DST.
posted by koeselitz at 10:22 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
That productivity loss is tied to the hour of sleep lost because people are getting up an hour earlier. Aren't you advocating changing the schedule, but not the clock? Wouldn't it have the same result if everyone just shifted their operating hours?
posted by ODiV at 10:29 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by ODiV at 10:29 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I want my eleven days back
posted by fallingbadgers at 10:30 AM on November 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by fallingbadgers at 10:30 AM on November 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
Wait, why are we even talking about DST? I thought everyone had switched to Internet Time years ago.
If you think its hard to add '1' or subtract '1', try doing this conversion in your head: (UTC+1seconds + (UTC+1minutes * 60) + (UTC+1hours * 3600)) / 86.4
posted by el io at 10:34 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
If you think its hard to add '1' or subtract '1', try doing this conversion in your head: (UTC+1seconds + (UTC+1minutes * 60) + (UTC+1hours * 3600)) / 86.4
posted by el io at 10:34 AM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
We're talking about half a billion dollars every year.
Or, in other words, about $1.50 per annum per capita. So anyone who values extended summer evening daylight by $1.50 or more should, net, favor DST.
You want living wages or safe working conditions? I'm willing to bet a lot of industries would be happy to provide those in exchange for killing DST.
So your new and improved argument is that the US could in essence "buy" living wages, or at least a substantial improvement in living wages, for $500M.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:46 AM on November 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
Or, in other words, about $1.50 per annum per capita. So anyone who values extended summer evening daylight by $1.50 or more should, net, favor DST.
You want living wages or safe working conditions? I'm willing to bet a lot of industries would be happy to provide those in exchange for killing DST.
So your new and improved argument is that the US could in essence "buy" living wages, or at least a substantial improvement in living wages, for $500M.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:46 AM on November 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
In an era when every human is surrounded by devices designed to count and keep track of minutes and seconds, and when processes based on those sums are essential to our existence, thinking we can just go around the house changing the clocks back is a terrible idea.
I have a system for dealing with this issue in my house. For any clock that doesn't automatically change, needs a ladder or step stool, or is to fiddly, just gets left until I get around to it. Once a few months go by there really is no point changing it because I'll have to go through the rigamarole again in a few more months. If you wait long enough the problem corrects itself!
Yes I am the one that the clock in my car is wrong for 6 months of the year. No biggy, I just automatically calculate the right time in my head.
posted by Jalliah at 11:00 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have a system for dealing with this issue in my house. For any clock that doesn't automatically change, needs a ladder or step stool, or is to fiddly, just gets left until I get around to it. Once a few months go by there really is no point changing it because I'll have to go through the rigamarole again in a few more months. If you wait long enough the problem corrects itself!
Yes I am the one that the clock in my car is wrong for 6 months of the year. No biggy, I just automatically calculate the right time in my head.
posted by Jalliah at 11:00 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
ROU_Xenophobe: “So your new and improved argument is that the US could in essence ‘buy’ living wages, or at least a substantial improvement in living wages, for $500M.”
My argument, then as now, has been thus: people who want anything like "Daylight Saving" should deal with it their own damned selves, instead of inconveniencing the entire rest of society and costing us all huge amounts of time and money. I offered some ways for people to do it themselves.
But really – in other things, we didn't do it this way, because it would be insane. DST is like instituting living wages by passing a law that forcibly changes the value of a dollar.
posted by koeselitz at 11:09 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
My argument, then as now, has been thus: people who want anything like "Daylight Saving" should deal with it their own damned selves, instead of inconveniencing the entire rest of society and costing us all huge amounts of time and money. I offered some ways for people to do it themselves.
But really – in other things, we didn't do it this way, because it would be insane. DST is like instituting living wages by passing a law that forcibly changes the value of a dollar.
posted by koeselitz at 11:09 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
DST is like instituting living wages by passing a law that forcibly changes the value of a dollar.
I seem to recall that inflation was often dealt with in the Middle Ages by changing the size of a loaf of bread, because nobody wanted to change the price.
posted by clawsoon at 11:16 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
I seem to recall that inflation was often dealt with in the Middle Ages by changing the size of a loaf of bread, because nobody wanted to change the price.
posted by clawsoon at 11:16 AM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Utterly at a loss to understand why anyone gets worked up about DST at all. It's an hour. You likely lose more than that watching cat videos on a given day.
It's not the hour, or even the theoretical "loss" of an hour. For me, it's the psychological impact of leaving my office at 5:00 p.m. and feeling like I'm walking out into the grim, soulless night. It being dark when I leave work makes me feel like work robs me of my life. I still leave at the same time every day, so work isn't getting more of my actual time, but it's getting more of my actual day, and I'd like to have some of that day for myself, thank you very much.
posted by mudpuppie at 11:20 AM on November 3, 2014 [14 favorites]
It's not the hour, or even the theoretical "loss" of an hour. For me, it's the psychological impact of leaving my office at 5:00 p.m. and feeling like I'm walking out into the grim, soulless night. It being dark when I leave work makes me feel like work robs me of my life. I still leave at the same time every day, so work isn't getting more of my actual time, but it's getting more of my actual day, and I'd like to have some of that day for myself, thank you very much.
posted by mudpuppie at 11:20 AM on November 3, 2014 [14 favorites]
people who want anything like "Daylight Saving" should deal with it their own damned selves
I honestly don't understand what this means. DST means everything happens an hour earlier. If "the entire rest of society" isn't on board, then it's not remotely the same thing. It's not something you can make happen on your own.
If, as a business, the lost productivity is really that important and dealing with it your own damned self is a good idea, why not just operate the same hours every day, DST be damned? All you have to do is (not) shift your operating hours twice a year, right?
I don't even especially like DST, but I don't think "Work it out yourself" is a realistic solution for those who do because, as you say, it's a shift for everyone in the community, not just individuals.
posted by ODiV at 11:21 AM on November 3, 2014
I honestly don't understand what this means. DST means everything happens an hour earlier. If "the entire rest of society" isn't on board, then it's not remotely the same thing. It's not something you can make happen on your own.
If, as a business, the lost productivity is really that important and dealing with it your own damned self is a good idea, why not just operate the same hours every day, DST be damned? All you have to do is (not) shift your operating hours twice a year, right?
I don't even especially like DST, but I don't think "Work it out yourself" is a realistic solution for those who do because, as you say, it's a shift for everyone in the community, not just individuals.
posted by ODiV at 11:21 AM on November 3, 2014
I think it's a brilliant spoof of taking the name of things literally in the bizarro age of "Defense of Marriage," etc. The best part, and I think the whole "let me show you" business is an elaborate setup for this, is the desperate plea, "Save your daylight!"
Plus, it's silly fun. Love it. Stalloooooooone!
posted by ctmf at 11:34 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Plus, it's silly fun. Love it. Stalloooooooone!
posted by ctmf at 11:34 AM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I find it odd that these days US DST is eight months out of the year. I find it odder that China only has Beijing time.
posted by linux at 12:13 PM on November 3, 2014
posted by linux at 12:13 PM on November 3, 2014
I seem to recall that inflation was often dealt with in the Middle Ages by changing the size of a loaf of bread, because nobody wanted to change the price.
You ever buy a "half gallon" of Orange Juice ? I think they're down to 33.7 ounces now.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:18 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
You ever buy a "half gallon" of Orange Juice ? I think they're down to 33.7 ounces now.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:18 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I seem to recall that inflation was often dealt with in the Middle Ages by changing the size of a loaf of bread, because nobody wanted to change the price.
See also the mars bar
posted by mr_stru at 1:16 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
See also the mars bar
posted by mr_stru at 1:16 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
After all, we all have smart phones capable of tracking solar noon in any particular location - "The work day starts 1 hour after sunrise at these coordinates, and ends 8 hours later."
The reason for standardized time can be summed up as "railroads." Before railroads were common, most places set local noon to solar noon. This worked great until railroads began running on timetables. So, you'd set your watch, and then move to the next city, and your watch would be off by a few minutes, because their noon is earlier than your noon (assuming you moved east) and then the train coming from the east, who's noon is later than the local noon, hits you because they thought you'd be gone, that being what the timetables said and what your watch said.
So, standard time. It's 7PM in Chicago and St. Louis at the same time. Good. But move out to California, and the sun is rising at 10AM and setting at 1AM in the winter. So, time zones, which try to make sure local noon stays within an hour of solar noon, so that mornings are mornings everywhere. So, there are places where the hour jumps, but they aren't that frequent and you just adjust the hour on the fly. Now, your train arriving at 1015AM according to your Railway Watch arrives at the next station 10 minutes after the 1005AM train departed, rather than at the same time.
Imagine trying to deal with setting up a meeting between you, someone in Dallas, and someone in Kansas City. Right now, it's easy -- they're all CST. If they're all on Solar Noon, you're going to have to find out what time that is in their local clocks, so while you're trying to hold an 11AM meeting, it's really going to be something like 11:12 in KC and 11:35 in Dallas.
That's not working. Having to deal with time zones confuses people enough. Dealing with pure solar noon breaks down the minute you deal with somebody in another town -- or heck, for big cities, people in the farther suburbs. Indeed, what would happen is corporations would declare their local noons, and cities with lots of big corps would effectively define local noons for many areas.
You could give up on time zones and have everyone use UTC, but people expect 0700 to be morning and 2200 to be evening and you're not going to change that anytime soon.
posted by eriko at 1:39 PM on November 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
The reason for standardized time can be summed up as "railroads." Before railroads were common, most places set local noon to solar noon. This worked great until railroads began running on timetables. So, you'd set your watch, and then move to the next city, and your watch would be off by a few minutes, because their noon is earlier than your noon (assuming you moved east) and then the train coming from the east, who's noon is later than the local noon, hits you because they thought you'd be gone, that being what the timetables said and what your watch said.
So, standard time. It's 7PM in Chicago and St. Louis at the same time. Good. But move out to California, and the sun is rising at 10AM and setting at 1AM in the winter. So, time zones, which try to make sure local noon stays within an hour of solar noon, so that mornings are mornings everywhere. So, there are places where the hour jumps, but they aren't that frequent and you just adjust the hour on the fly. Now, your train arriving at 1015AM according to your Railway Watch arrives at the next station 10 minutes after the 1005AM train departed, rather than at the same time.
Imagine trying to deal with setting up a meeting between you, someone in Dallas, and someone in Kansas City. Right now, it's easy -- they're all CST. If they're all on Solar Noon, you're going to have to find out what time that is in their local clocks, so while you're trying to hold an 11AM meeting, it's really going to be something like 11:12 in KC and 11:35 in Dallas.
That's not working. Having to deal with time zones confuses people enough. Dealing with pure solar noon breaks down the minute you deal with somebody in another town -- or heck, for big cities, people in the farther suburbs. Indeed, what would happen is corporations would declare their local noons, and cities with lots of big corps would effectively define local noons for many areas.
You could give up on time zones and have everyone use UTC, but people expect 0700 to be morning and 2200 to be evening and you're not going to change that anytime soon.
posted by eriko at 1:39 PM on November 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
Maybe I am missing something, but with or without day saving time, there is still the same amount of daylight, the only difference is during what hours. Right?
Daylight Time Conspiracy
...
Daylight Savings Time involves 1) TAKING an hour from every American in April (the fact that this is done under cover of night should alert anyone with half a brain that something is amiss,) and B) GIVING the hour back in October to the survivors.
During the course of six months, tens of thousands of senior citizens, accident victims, and other red-blooded Americans have the misfortune to die. If they die during the Daylight Savings Time months, they die an hour early. Their lives, tragically cut short by death, are cut an hour shorter by DST. WHERE DOES THIS TIME GO?
...
posted by polecat at 2:08 PM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
Daylight Time Conspiracy
...
Daylight Savings Time involves 1) TAKING an hour from every American in April (the fact that this is done under cover of night should alert anyone with half a brain that something is amiss,) and B) GIVING the hour back in October to the survivors.
During the course of six months, tens of thousands of senior citizens, accident victims, and other red-blooded Americans have the misfortune to die. If they die during the Daylight Savings Time months, they die an hour early. Their lives, tragically cut short by death, are cut an hour shorter by DST. WHERE DOES THIS TIME GO?
...
posted by polecat at 2:08 PM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
WHERE DOES THIS TIME GO?
And can I get it back with interest?
posted by asperity at 2:17 PM on November 3, 2014
And can I get it back with interest?
posted by asperity at 2:17 PM on November 3, 2014
WHERE DOES THIS TIME GO?
Loaned to the extra new babies born nine months after Lie-in Sunday, duh.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:23 PM on November 3, 2014
Loaned to the extra new babies born nine months after Lie-in Sunday, duh.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:23 PM on November 3, 2014
I've been saving my daylight for when I retire. It's going to be awesome.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:35 PM on November 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:35 PM on November 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
me: “people who want anything like ‘Daylight Saving’ should deal with it their own damned selves”
ODiV: “I honestly don't understand what this means. DST means everything happens an hour earlier. If ‘the entire rest of society’ isn't on board, then it's not remotely the same thing. It's not something you can make happen on your own. If, as a business, the lost productivity is really that important and dealing with it your own damned self is a good idea, why not just operate the same hours every day, DST be damned? All you have to do is (not) shift your operating hours twice a year, right? I don't even especially like DST, but I don't think ‘Work it out yourself’ is a realistic solution for those who do because, as you say, it's a shift for everyone in the community, not just individuals.”
If all you want is to see the sun after you get out of work, you really can do that yourself. Find a job that allows you to shift your hours seasonally a bit. That may not be that easy, but it's certainly possible. So find that job, set it all up, and you can shift your hours and have the working schedule you want, allowing you to arrange your life more directly around the amount of sunshine that exists in the evening.
Ah! – you say – but I don't just want to have sunshine in the evening! I want to share that sunshine with other people. And that's understandable, I suppose; if you have folks you like to have dinner with, or children you'd like to spend time with, or (like the inventor of DST) you'd like to go golfing with friends, well, they will have to shift their schedules, as well. If you want to use the golf course or go to a shop, they'll have to stay open (if they don't already, which at this point is unlikely but possible). So I can see feeling as though one really prefers all of society to get in on the daylight saving bandwagon for the full effect.
Here's the crux of what I'm saying: everybody has certain things they'd like the world to do. I'd like it if we instituted the Mediterranean model, whereby shops and workplaces all shut for three or four hours in the afternoon to give everybody a chance to nap and relax. I know folks who wish everyone's lives revolved around getting up at noon and going to bed around 2am. (I was one of those people in college.) We can all adjust our lives to try to approximate what we'd like to see in this regard.
But at a certain point, society has to have a structure, and we can't do everything that everybody wants. We have to choose. And in this case, since DST is costing us money and suffering, there is no reason to keep it.
Yes, for pro-DST people to have their way in all things, they simply must have all of society share the burden and do DST together. But that isn't rational. The costs far outweigh the benefits. So the pro-DST people are going to have to learn to adapt to a world where people don't change their clocks all the time.
posted by koeselitz at 2:44 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
ODiV: “I honestly don't understand what this means. DST means everything happens an hour earlier. If ‘the entire rest of society’ isn't on board, then it's not remotely the same thing. It's not something you can make happen on your own. If, as a business, the lost productivity is really that important and dealing with it your own damned self is a good idea, why not just operate the same hours every day, DST be damned? All you have to do is (not) shift your operating hours twice a year, right? I don't even especially like DST, but I don't think ‘Work it out yourself’ is a realistic solution for those who do because, as you say, it's a shift for everyone in the community, not just individuals.”
If all you want is to see the sun after you get out of work, you really can do that yourself. Find a job that allows you to shift your hours seasonally a bit. That may not be that easy, but it's certainly possible. So find that job, set it all up, and you can shift your hours and have the working schedule you want, allowing you to arrange your life more directly around the amount of sunshine that exists in the evening.
Ah! – you say – but I don't just want to have sunshine in the evening! I want to share that sunshine with other people. And that's understandable, I suppose; if you have folks you like to have dinner with, or children you'd like to spend time with, or (like the inventor of DST) you'd like to go golfing with friends, well, they will have to shift their schedules, as well. If you want to use the golf course or go to a shop, they'll have to stay open (if they don't already, which at this point is unlikely but possible). So I can see feeling as though one really prefers all of society to get in on the daylight saving bandwagon for the full effect.
Here's the crux of what I'm saying: everybody has certain things they'd like the world to do. I'd like it if we instituted the Mediterranean model, whereby shops and workplaces all shut for three or four hours in the afternoon to give everybody a chance to nap and relax. I know folks who wish everyone's lives revolved around getting up at noon and going to bed around 2am. (I was one of those people in college.) We can all adjust our lives to try to approximate what we'd like to see in this regard.
But at a certain point, society has to have a structure, and we can't do everything that everybody wants. We have to choose. And in this case, since DST is costing us money and suffering, there is no reason to keep it.
Yes, for pro-DST people to have their way in all things, they simply must have all of society share the burden and do DST together. But that isn't rational. The costs far outweigh the benefits. So the pro-DST people are going to have to learn to adapt to a world where people don't change their clocks all the time.
posted by koeselitz at 2:44 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I was really expecting an extra hour in the bar on Saturday night and then they closed at what was now 2:00 AM. If you're not even going to let me use the extra hour to drink, what's the point?
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:34 AM on November 3
You should've been in St. Louis at the bar I work at where I can assure you we gave everyone an extra hour to drink and me an extra hour of work (which is not as exciting as you'd think.) Either way, unless the bar closes before DST hits, they should probably stay open or at least warn you ahead of time, so that you can go to a bar which decides to suffer for your sins.
posted by lizarrd at 2:49 PM on November 3, 2014
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:34 AM on November 3
You should've been in St. Louis at the bar I work at where I can assure you we gave everyone an extra hour to drink and me an extra hour of work (which is not as exciting as you'd think.) Either way, unless the bar closes before DST hits, they should probably stay open or at least warn you ahead of time, so that you can go to a bar which decides to suffer for your sins.
posted by lizarrd at 2:49 PM on November 3, 2014
I'm still not clear on how a business, if they determine DST is not beneficial, can't just shift their hours to avoid that productivity loss.
Also, "suffering"?
posted by ODiV at 2:53 PM on November 3, 2014
Also, "suffering"?
posted by ODiV at 2:53 PM on November 3, 2014
I am making a list of the most important issues facing mankind. Thus far I've got:
1) Toilet roll placement;
2) Shoes on or off in apartment;
3) Sitters vs Standers.
Newest addition:
4) DST is apocalypse.
Anything else?
posted by Pyrogenesis at 3:04 PM on November 3, 2014 [10 favorites]
1) Toilet roll placement;
2) Shoes on or off in apartment;
3) Sitters vs Standers.
Newest addition:
4) DST is apocalypse.
Anything else?
posted by Pyrogenesis at 3:04 PM on November 3, 2014 [10 favorites]
As someone who spent most of her life in a country that doesn't do DST (and then a few years in a different country's city that didn't do DST either), I find the whole notion of DST rather infuriating. Timezones are already complicated enough when you're trying to coordinate things internationally - why fuck it up more by randomly shifting an hour or so every so often?
posted by divabat at 3:35 PM on November 3, 2014
posted by divabat at 3:35 PM on November 3, 2014
Because on a non-uniform, round, tilted-on-its-axis Earth not every place is similar, is my guess. There are regions on where seasonal depression, related at least to some extent to the lack of sunlight, is a thing, for example. There's even a paper (with somewhat unclear conclusions)!
posted by Pyrogenesis at 3:43 PM on November 3, 2014
posted by Pyrogenesis at 3:43 PM on November 3, 2014
I get that seasonal depression is a thing (I deal with it myself on some level). I just don't understand why it has to be associated with specific timestamps. I'm closer to koeslitz on the "deal with it on a smaller scale" side.
posted by divabat at 3:58 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by divabat at 3:58 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, divabat, the global reach of this thing is strange. Shouldn't it be just a thing for higher latitudes? Why are Americans and Australians debating this? I do like my DST, but why is this a thing below, say, 50-45 parallel north or south, or whatever?
posted by Pyrogenesis at 4:05 PM on November 3, 2014
posted by Pyrogenesis at 4:05 PM on November 3, 2014
Pyrogenesis- (5) Ask or Guess culture adherents.
posted by seawallrunner at 5:03 PM on November 3, 2014
posted by seawallrunner at 5:03 PM on November 3, 2014
[i]No-one with easy access to roast puffin and whale on a stick should ever be that irate.
posted by sobarel at 7:04 AM on November 3[/i]
ROAST PUFFIN? God, man, that's like eating a UNICORN! You just don't do it.
posted by Sleeper at 5:43 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by sobarel at 7:04 AM on November 3[/i]
ROAST PUFFIN? God, man, that's like eating a UNICORN! You just don't do it.
posted by Sleeper at 5:43 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
not any more, anyway
posted by boo_radley at 6:11 PM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by boo_radley at 6:11 PM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Most of the the time we get to ourselves is evening time."
Hear, hear. Yeah, so even I, a night owl, will admit that on those freakish fucking mornings where I woke up at 5 a.m. or 6 a.m. when I didn't need to (another thing to thank non-DST for is being woken up by streaming sunlight earlier than I want to be up), it's nice to get watching last night's Good Wife or whatever over with. But you do always have to keep an eye on the clock, and you can't move the time, and I'm sluggish in the morning no matter what so it's not like I got shit done beyond watching television.
"For me, it's the psychological impact of leaving my office at 5:00 p.m. and feeling like I'm walking out into the grim, soulless night. It being dark when I leave work makes me feel like work robs me of my life. I still leave at the same time every day, so work isn't getting more of my actual time, but it's getting more of my actual day, and I'd like to have some of that day for myself, thank you very much."
Hear, hear. I feel like it sucks the energy out of my body to emerge to full on dark dark dark fucking dark. It makes me not want to do my errands or go to the gym, it makes me want to huddle inside with clam chowder and ... well, watch more television. And of course, whine on Metafilter.
Hear, hear.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:48 PM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Hear, hear. Yeah, so even I, a night owl, will admit that on those freakish fucking mornings where I woke up at 5 a.m. or 6 a.m. when I didn't need to (another thing to thank non-DST for is being woken up by streaming sunlight earlier than I want to be up), it's nice to get watching last night's Good Wife or whatever over with. But you do always have to keep an eye on the clock, and you can't move the time, and I'm sluggish in the morning no matter what so it's not like I got shit done beyond watching television.
"For me, it's the psychological impact of leaving my office at 5:00 p.m. and feeling like I'm walking out into the grim, soulless night. It being dark when I leave work makes me feel like work robs me of my life. I still leave at the same time every day, so work isn't getting more of my actual time, but it's getting more of my actual day, and I'd like to have some of that day for myself, thank you very much."
Hear, hear. I feel like it sucks the energy out of my body to emerge to full on dark dark dark fucking dark. It makes me not want to do my errands or go to the gym, it makes me want to huddle inside with clam chowder and ... well, watch more television. And of course, whine on Metafilter.
Hear, hear.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:48 PM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's not the hour, or even the theoretical "loss" of an hour. For me, it's the psychological impact of leaving my office at 5:00 p.m. --mudpuppie
It sounds like it is the end of Daylight Savings Time that you don't like, since that's when it gets darker earlier (by the clock). Did you know that Richard Nixon once proclaimed that Daylight Savings Time would never end? I was in high school a the time. And soon I was walking to school in the pitch black, coming near to getting run over by sleepy commuters. There were several accidents in the news. Whether or not these accidents would have happened anyway and it was all the press playing it up is up to argument, but the emotional 'we are killing our kids' argument won out and the experiment quickly died.
DST is costing us money and suffering, there is no reason to keep it.-- koeselitz
Well maybe for you. My life is much better with DST because I can leave work when it is sunny and have some fun in the light before going to bed. I couldn't leave work earlier (most days) unless I could convince all my co-workers to do the same thing, and that will never happen.
Also, I'm more likely to go to bed just as it is getting dark, which means I almost never turn on the lights.
So: much happiness and saving money, pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting. I'm sorry that DST doesn't give you the same benefits--I really wish it did.
posted by eye of newt at 11:09 PM on November 3, 2014
It sounds like it is the end of Daylight Savings Time that you don't like, since that's when it gets darker earlier (by the clock). Did you know that Richard Nixon once proclaimed that Daylight Savings Time would never end? I was in high school a the time. And soon I was walking to school in the pitch black, coming near to getting run over by sleepy commuters. There were several accidents in the news. Whether or not these accidents would have happened anyway and it was all the press playing it up is up to argument, but the emotional 'we are killing our kids' argument won out and the experiment quickly died.
DST is costing us money and suffering, there is no reason to keep it.-- koeselitz
Well maybe for you. My life is much better with DST because I can leave work when it is sunny and have some fun in the light before going to bed. I couldn't leave work earlier (most days) unless I could convince all my co-workers to do the same thing, and that will never happen.
Also, I'm more likely to go to bed just as it is getting dark, which means I almost never turn on the lights.
So: much happiness and saving money, pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting. I'm sorry that DST doesn't give you the same benefits--I really wish it did.
posted by eye of newt at 11:09 PM on November 3, 2014
This guy needs to portray one of the nine previous Icelandic Sport-Themed Superheroes on LazyTown in a flashback. Minus all the Sportacussing, of course.
posted by BiggerJ at 1:35 AM on November 4, 2014
posted by BiggerJ at 1:35 AM on November 4, 2014
I need to say that I'm sitting here reading this at 5:47 am because my dog got me up an hour ago to go outside instead of 2 minutes ago like he did before DST change.
posted by sciencejock at 2:45 AM on November 4, 2014
posted by sciencejock at 2:45 AM on November 4, 2014
dances_with_sneetches - Reykjavik has mountains to the south and in the middle of summer the SUN IS ONLY THREE INCHES ABOVE THE HORIZON AT NOON.
Surely you mean the middle of winter?
In the middle of summer it doesn't get dark at all, there are about four hours of dusk but otherwise it is daylight from the middle of May to the end of July.
posted by asok at 4:24 AM on November 4, 2014
Surely you mean the middle of winter?
In the middle of summer it doesn't get dark at all, there are about four hours of dusk but otherwise it is daylight from the middle of May to the end of July.
posted by asok at 4:24 AM on November 4, 2014
I'd like to go on the record one more time and say, Fuck DST.
I'm developing/maintaining a piece of somewhat non-trivial software that mostly works on a daily cycle. All the users work, think and communicate in local calendar days. Most of the reporting is structured on a daily basis. Every other system it has to interface with talks in terms of calendar days and hour of day, many of them taking their own creative approach to representing the extra/missing hours .
Almost 50% of the code that has anything to do with time is written for the specific purpose of handling one 25-hour day every year. I hope you are enjoying your extra sunlight, because it's making people like me miserable.
posted by Dr Dracator at 4:34 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm developing/maintaining a piece of somewhat non-trivial software that mostly works on a daily cycle. All the users work, think and communicate in local calendar days. Most of the reporting is structured on a daily basis. Every other system it has to interface with talks in terms of calendar days and hour of day, many of them taking their own creative approach to representing the extra/missing hours .
Almost 50% of the code that has anything to do with time is written for the specific purpose of handling one 25-hour day every year. I hope you are enjoying your extra sunlight, because it's making people like me miserable.
posted by Dr Dracator at 4:34 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Around the 1:30 mark he looks like he has antlers. That was fun.
posted by alms at 6:55 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by alms at 6:55 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
DrDracator - wait until you have to consider Arizona, which doesn't do DST at all. Presumably because they think that extra hour is when the communists slip fluoride into the reservoirs.
posted by Naberius at 6:58 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 6:58 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
I love DST! My mood has been vastly improved in the last few days since I am not getting up in the awful darkness. I guess I don't mind getting home in the dark. It's cold in the winter, wtf am I going to do outside anyway? In December/January, it's going to be dark when I leave and get home; that's unavoidable unless we radically shift things.
But in the summer, I don't want it to be light at 4:30 am - I'd rather have that hour in the evening because it's warm and I can do things outside. I'm not a farmer. So I am totally in favor of this whole clock changing thing, and I wish we still did it in October/April like we used to.
I wonder how DST love/hate tracks with climate. I guess I can understand why a Floridian would want more evening sun in the winter.
posted by desjardins at 8:26 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
But in the summer, I don't want it to be light at 4:30 am - I'd rather have that hour in the evening because it's warm and I can do things outside. I'm not a farmer. So I am totally in favor of this whole clock changing thing, and I wish we still did it in October/April like we used to.
I wonder how DST love/hate tracks with climate. I guess I can understand why a Floridian would want more evening sun in the winter.
posted by desjardins at 8:26 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Almost 50% of the code that has anything to do with time is written for the specific purpose of handling one 25-hour day every year. I hope you are enjoying your extra sunlight, because it's making people like me miserable.
Store everything in UTC, which never leaps an hour. It does leap seconds, though, so you might have second 60 to deal with, or have to deal with skipping second 59. Let the local OS worry about the conversion for display.
Or, you run NTP on the box and don't even bother with it. If you absolutely cannot deal with that, you either known about TAI or you really shouldn't be working at that precision.
posted by eriko at 9:16 AM on November 4, 2014
Store everything in UTC, which never leaps an hour. It does leap seconds, though, so you might have second 60 to deal with, or have to deal with skipping second 59. Let the local OS worry about the conversion for display.
Or, you run NTP on the box and don't even bother with it. If you absolutely cannot deal with that, you either known about TAI or you really shouldn't be working at that precision.
posted by eriko at 9:16 AM on November 4, 2014
desjardins: “I love DST! My mood has been vastly improved in the last few days since I am not getting up in the awful darkness.”
If this is the case, you should hate DST, because DST is over. We are now on standard time. DST is during the summer months; its purpose to save sunshine for summer evenings by giving up some sunshine in the morning.
So, in the autumn before DST ends, when you get up in awful darkness, remember that you have DST to blame for that.
posted by koeselitz at 9:36 AM on November 4, 2014
If this is the case, you should hate DST, because DST is over. We are now on standard time. DST is during the summer months; its purpose to save sunshine for summer evenings by giving up some sunshine in the morning.
So, in the autumn before DST ends, when you get up in awful darkness, remember that you have DST to blame for that.
posted by koeselitz at 9:36 AM on November 4, 2014
Dr Dracator: “Almost 50% of the code that has anything to do with time is written for the specific purpose of handling one 25-hour day every year. I hope you are enjoying your extra sunlight, because it's making people like me miserable.”
eriko: “Store everything in UTC, which never leaps an hour... Let the local OS worry about the conversion for display.”
This is a brilliant idea. UTC! Who would have thought? Hey, here's an idea: somebody should go to the trouble of integrating UTC into Linux, so we can use it all the time!
posted by koeselitz at 9:42 AM on November 4, 2014
eriko: “Store everything in UTC, which never leaps an hour... Let the local OS worry about the conversion for display.”
This is a brilliant idea. UTC! Who would have thought? Hey, here's an idea: somebody should go to the trouble of integrating UTC into Linux, so we can use it all the time!
posted by koeselitz at 9:42 AM on November 4, 2014
Just FYI, not everyone enjoys the goddamn sunshine.
The sun should be up in the morning, and setting in the evening. You want more sunshine when you come home from work? Why? You're home from work. It's night. You don't get running-around time. Go have dinner. Be a grown-up for once.
Okay, that's me being silly.
But the fact is there are some of us who actually feel horrible and miserable with the sunshine hours. Seasonal Affective Disorder actually has a variant called Summer Onset Season Affective Disorder. (The standard joke: it's not just SAD; it's SOSAD.) The wife and I highly suspect we have this, because we are utterly miserable throughout DST. When the seasons finally began to change (here in Tallahassee, FL, that means mid-to-late October; ugh), our misery weirdly subsided. The last few days, when I come out of work with the dark waiting for me? It feels fucking normal to me.
Granted, we both also appear to have screwy (by societal standards) circadian rhythms. In the morning, regardless of the amount of sleep we get, we feel awful. Even if we're dog-tired at the end of our workdays, by (our ostensible) bedtime (10PM-midnight), we're wide awake. We started to remember recently times when each of us, in our younger years, would have overnight shifts, and we remembered loving them. We always seemed to sleep better and work better with a "flipped clock" as we call it.
posted by grubi at 9:47 AM on November 4, 2014
The sun should be up in the morning, and setting in the evening. You want more sunshine when you come home from work? Why? You're home from work. It's night. You don't get running-around time. Go have dinner. Be a grown-up for once.
Okay, that's me being silly.
But the fact is there are some of us who actually feel horrible and miserable with the sunshine hours. Seasonal Affective Disorder actually has a variant called Summer Onset Season Affective Disorder. (The standard joke: it's not just SAD; it's SOSAD.) The wife and I highly suspect we have this, because we are utterly miserable throughout DST. When the seasons finally began to change (here in Tallahassee, FL, that means mid-to-late October; ugh), our misery weirdly subsided. The last few days, when I come out of work with the dark waiting for me? It feels fucking normal to me.
Granted, we both also appear to have screwy (by societal standards) circadian rhythms. In the morning, regardless of the amount of sleep we get, we feel awful. Even if we're dog-tired at the end of our workdays, by (our ostensible) bedtime (10PM-midnight), we're wide awake. We started to remember recently times when each of us, in our younger years, would have overnight shifts, and we remembered loving them. We always seemed to sleep better and work better with a "flipped clock" as we call it.
posted by grubi at 9:47 AM on November 4, 2014
I guess I can understand why a Floridian would want more evening sun in the winter.
Except there are plenty Floridians who hate the sun. /shakes fist at the sun
posted by grubi at 9:49 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Except there are plenty Floridians who hate the sun. /shakes fist at the sun
posted by grubi at 9:49 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Besides, my ancient ancestors chose to settle in the North of Europe! I'm genetically predisposed to prefer cloudy days!
Right?
posted by grubi at 9:51 AM on November 4, 2014
Right?
posted by grubi at 9:51 AM on November 4, 2014
I wonder how DST love/hate tracks with climate. I guess I can understand why a Floridian would want more evening sun in the winter.
There's also the swing in day lengths as you get further from the equator.
In Oslo, Norway, at just shy of 60°N, sunrise at the summer solstice is at 0354, and sunset is at 2244. The sky never really gets dark. DST there is sort of meaningless, really, when you're looking at just shy of 19 hours of daylight. At the winter solstice, you get just under 6 hours of sunlight. When sunrise is at 0918 and sunset is at 1514, there's just no real daylight to save.
In Fortaleza, Brazil, at 3°S, it's a different world. Throughout the year, the sun rises about 0530 and sets about 1730. The difference in day length between the solstices is 25 minutes. DST makes little sense there, because, well, sunrise moves about 12 minutes over the year.
Really, it's the temperate latitudes that really have enough diurnal variation over the year to make DST worth doing -- though if you are in the 3-2 hour range, what DST effectively does is keep sunrises near the same time and moves the sunsets.
Even in the continental US, you see the difference from latitude. Miami's high summer days are 3:15 minutes longer than the low winter days. Chicago's are a bit over 6 hours longer. Bismark, MD sees 7 hours and 20 minutes more daylight at the summer solstice.
posted by eriko at 10:02 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
There's also the swing in day lengths as you get further from the equator.
In Oslo, Norway, at just shy of 60°N, sunrise at the summer solstice is at 0354, and sunset is at 2244. The sky never really gets dark. DST there is sort of meaningless, really, when you're looking at just shy of 19 hours of daylight. At the winter solstice, you get just under 6 hours of sunlight. When sunrise is at 0918 and sunset is at 1514, there's just no real daylight to save.
In Fortaleza, Brazil, at 3°S, it's a different world. Throughout the year, the sun rises about 0530 and sets about 1730. The difference in day length between the solstices is 25 minutes. DST makes little sense there, because, well, sunrise moves about 12 minutes over the year.
Really, it's the temperate latitudes that really have enough diurnal variation over the year to make DST worth doing -- though if you are in the 3-2 hour range, what DST effectively does is keep sunrises near the same time and moves the sunsets.
Even in the continental US, you see the difference from latitude. Miami's high summer days are 3:15 minutes longer than the low winter days. Chicago's are a bit over 6 hours longer. Bismark, MD sees 7 hours and 20 minutes more daylight at the summer solstice.
posted by eriko at 10:02 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I hate switching clocks twice a year -- both doing it and changing the time most things happen. I remember fall being the easier time, but I've got to say that last night as I was exhausted and putting my kid to bed when I wanted to be in bed myself, was not that easy. I'm sure having light at more useful times is nice and all, but when it's light from 4am-10pm* at the summer solstice and 8am-4pm at the winter solstice** (Seattle) it's hard to see where to shift the light to make actual sense. (Of course, there are also the days where it looks like twilight at noon because the clouds are so dark.) It's definitely not as bad as Iceland, but there is a bit of the too much light in the summer and too little in the winter to actually do something with.
*using nautical twilight because it's sunshiney enough that it's accurate
**using sunrise/sunset because it's so cloudy sometimes it's hard to see much light until after the sun is up
posted by Margalo Epps at 10:06 AM on November 4, 2014
*using nautical twilight because it's sunshiney enough that it's accurate
**using sunrise/sunset because it's so cloudy sometimes it's hard to see much light until after the sun is up
posted by Margalo Epps at 10:06 AM on November 4, 2014
The orbit of the earth does not care about your wishes for regular timekeeping! Aggressively so!
posted by grubi at 10:13 AM on November 4, 2014
posted by grubi at 10:13 AM on November 4, 2014
People talking about Iceland or similarly northerly locales in the context of DST (well, aside from the fact that it's the subject of the post) is, as eriko points out, missing the point. Nearer the poles, the yearly variation in the length of daylight is so large that DST doesn't matter. And nearer the equator, the yearly variation in the length of daylight is so small that DST doesn't matter.
"So, in the autumn before DST ends, when you get up in awful darkness, remember that you have DST to blame for that."
Yes, but desjardins made it clear in the comment that their biggest concern, which DST addresses, was the wasted daylight in the summer mornings.
Also, that particular problem with autumn is more that DST ends too late for desjardins. Even without DST, at desjardins's location by the winter solstice they'll be getting up before dawn, as well. Looking it up, I see that on last Saturday, before the switch off DST, desjardin's sunrise was 7:26 AM. At the winter solstice on December 21st, desjardin's sunrise will be at 7:20 AM. So you can't say that a lack of DST would eliminate this problem entirely.
Really, desjardin's schedule and latitude are exemplary for the benefits and problems associated with DST. That's right in the middle of the latitudes that are best served by DST. They get up late enough to benefit from DST, but also early enough that they sometimes have the "getting up before dawn" problem.
These are the essential facts which cause conflict:
It's all about deciding what problems are most and least important. You can get rid of both time zones and daylight saving time, but that means you do have to deal with the things that both try to avoid.
I appreciate that different people prioritize these problems differently and so have strong individual preferences about this stuff. But it's simply wrong to argue either that a) your preferences are everybody's preferences and therefore your solution is "best" or b) that there is in principle a solution that completely reconciles all the implicit problems presented by my list.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:54 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
"So, in the autumn before DST ends, when you get up in awful darkness, remember that you have DST to blame for that."
Yes, but desjardins made it clear in the comment that their biggest concern, which DST addresses, was the wasted daylight in the summer mornings.
Also, that particular problem with autumn is more that DST ends too late for desjardins. Even without DST, at desjardins's location by the winter solstice they'll be getting up before dawn, as well. Looking it up, I see that on last Saturday, before the switch off DST, desjardin's sunrise was 7:26 AM. At the winter solstice on December 21st, desjardin's sunrise will be at 7:20 AM. So you can't say that a lack of DST would eliminate this problem entirely.
Really, desjardin's schedule and latitude are exemplary for the benefits and problems associated with DST. That's right in the middle of the latitudes that are best served by DST. They get up late enough to benefit from DST, but also early enough that they sometimes have the "getting up before dawn" problem.
These are the essential facts which cause conflict:
- Humans are diurnal
- Earth has a slightly tilted axis
- In a technological society, people communicate instantly and travel quickly over long distances
- In a large and structured society, people both expect and the economy needs schedule regularity, both across distance and time
It's all about deciding what problems are most and least important. You can get rid of both time zones and daylight saving time, but that means you do have to deal with the things that both try to avoid.
I appreciate that different people prioritize these problems differently and so have strong individual preferences about this stuff. But it's simply wrong to argue either that a) your preferences are everybody's preferences and therefore your solution is "best" or b) that there is in principle a solution that completely reconciles all the implicit problems presented by my list.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:54 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Store everything in UTC, which never leaps an hour. It does leap seconds, though, so you might have second 60 to deal with, or have to deal with skipping second 59. Let the local OS worry about the conversion for display.
Yeah, that's what I was talking about when I said 50% of the code I'm writting would be unnecessary without DST:
EVERYBODY who uses this software, and everybody they talk to, operates on CET, not UTC. Nobody even dreams of working in a different time zone, which would make internal conversion to UTC more sensible. The business is such that when CET days begin and end matters - but now you can't do, say,
In short, I have to jump through a ton of otherwise unnecessary hoops so - Fuck DST.
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:09 PM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's what I was talking about when I said 50% of the code I'm writting would be unnecessary without DST:
EVERYBODY who uses this software, and everybody they talk to, operates on CET, not UTC. Nobody even dreams of working in a different time zone, which would make internal conversion to UTC more sensible. The business is such that when CET days begin and end matters - but now you can't do, say,
GROUP BY day_field - because the database operates in UTC. Plus I have more complicated concerns than the local OS converting time for display - such as generating/ editing timeseries that take things like weekends and time of day into account, and are a huge pain in the ass to convert to/from UTC all the time. Oh and the bozos on the other end, over which I have no control, sent me stuff like "Hour 3B" last Sunday, which I have to anticipate and work around.In short, I have to jump through a ton of otherwise unnecessary hoops so - Fuck DST.
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:09 PM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wonder how DST love/hate tracks with climate. I guess I can understand why a Floridian would want more evening sun in the winter.
Hm, good point. As a Californian it's not totally frigid all day long every day of winter (right now temps range from about 45-68ish), so it's not guaranteed awful every time we leave the house.
However, I have definitely noticed that The Cold Snap* here tends to be within a day or two of the time change. Literally, The Cold Snap has MOVED BACK a week ever since the change went to November. I can't deny that I like putting that freeze off, somehow. I know that doesn't make sense, but it does seem to work that way here.
* i.e. heaters must be turned on all the time, can't go out without a coat, frigid damn mornings, rainy season-basically the official temperature start of winter rather than the maybe-maybe-not of fall
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:25 PM on November 4, 2014
Hm, good point. As a Californian it's not totally frigid all day long every day of winter (right now temps range from about 45-68ish), so it's not guaranteed awful every time we leave the house.
However, I have definitely noticed that The Cold Snap* here tends to be within a day or two of the time change. Literally, The Cold Snap has MOVED BACK a week ever since the change went to November. I can't deny that I like putting that freeze off, somehow. I know that doesn't make sense, but it does seem to work that way here.
* i.e. heaters must be turned on all the time, can't go out without a coat, frigid damn mornings, rainy season-basically the official temperature start of winter rather than the maybe-maybe-not of fall
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:25 PM on November 4, 2014
I was going to come back and explain myself but Ivan did that more-than-adequately.
And the people I know who have complained the most and the loudest about DST ending are Californians and Texans who like to sleep late.
posted by desjardins at 10:31 AM on November 5, 2014
And the people I know who have complained the most and the loudest about DST ending are Californians and Texans who like to sleep late.
posted by desjardins at 10:31 AM on November 5, 2014
Ivan Fyodorovich: “I appreciate that different people prioritize these problems differently and so have strong individual preferences about this stuff. But it's simply wrong to argue either that a) your preferences are everybody's preferences and therefore your solution is ‘best’ or b) that there is in principle a solution that completely reconciles all the implicit problems presented by my list.”
Exactly. I came here to argue against eriko, who has regularly said in this thread that DST is obviously better, and that those who complain about its technical complications should "just use UTC," as though that were an easy fix, and as though we hadn't thought of that.
My point here has been that it doesn't matter what anyone's personal preference is. DTC costs more, and is more inefficient. We therefore shouldn't do it. I know people have different preferences, and they might like this or that better, but when we're talking about a change that will save us billions of dollars and help people all over the country instantaneously, it's silly that we're arguing about who likes waking up at what time.
posted by koeselitz at 10:46 AM on November 5, 2014
Exactly. I came here to argue against eriko, who has regularly said in this thread that DST is obviously better, and that those who complain about its technical complications should "just use UTC," as though that were an easy fix, and as though we hadn't thought of that.
My point here has been that it doesn't matter what anyone's personal preference is. DTC costs more, and is more inefficient. We therefore shouldn't do it. I know people have different preferences, and they might like this or that better, but when we're talking about a change that will save us billions of dollars and help people all over the country instantaneously, it's silly that we're arguing about who likes waking up at what time.
posted by koeselitz at 10:46 AM on November 5, 2014
Wait, what's DTC?
posted by desjardins at 11:22 AM on November 5, 2014
posted by desjardins at 11:22 AM on November 5, 2014
drunken toddler conundrum
posted by Namlit at 12:56 PM on November 5, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Namlit at 12:56 PM on November 5, 2014 [5 favorites]
But the fact is there are some of us who actually feel horrible and miserable with the sunshine hours. Seasonal Affective Disorder actually has a variant called Summer Onset Season Affective Disorder. (The standard joke: it's not just SAD; it's SOSAD.)
I still call mine SAD -- Summer Afflictive Disorder.
posted by Celsius1414 at 4:16 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I still call mine SAD -- Summer Afflictive Disorder.
posted by Celsius1414 at 4:16 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I say we scrap both Daylight Savings Time and also Darknight Spendthrift Space, and we vote #1 to replace both with "quidnunc time". In quidnunc time there's no need to be afraid: in quidnunc time, we'll live in light and we'll BANISH shade. And, in our world of plenty, we can spread a smile of joy if we throw our arms around the world in "quidnunc time".
That being said, please do say a prayer, pray for the "other ones". It's hard, but when we're having fun, there's a world outside your window and it's a world of dread and fear - where the only water flowing is the bitter sting of tears. And the quidnunc bells that ring there are the clanging chimes of doom.
So tonight thank God it's them instead of you! Assuming you vote #1 quidnunc kid, of course. You've been warned.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:19 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
That being said, please do say a prayer, pray for the "other ones". It's hard, but when we're having fun, there's a world outside your window and it's a world of dread and fear - where the only water flowing is the bitter sting of tears. And the quidnunc bells that ring there are the clanging chimes of doom.
So tonight thank God it's them instead of you! Assuming you vote #1 quidnunc kid, of course. You've been warned.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:19 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
My point here has been that it doesn't matter what anyone's personal preference is.
Totally. What kind of maniac would try to make necessarily-collective decisions by aggregating individuals' preferences?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:36 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Totally. What kind of maniac would try to make necessarily-collective decisions by aggregating individuals' preferences?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:36 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Okay, so I'm way late to this party, but my spin on the idea of eliminating Daylight Savings: make spring forward and fall back separate ballot items, so we can vote for annual clock rollbacks. I've already moved to the Pacific coast, and it's going to be a much harder relocation if I do so again, for the sole benefit of getting to work on time.
posted by pwnguin at 11:04 PM on November 5, 2014
posted by pwnguin at 11:04 PM on November 5, 2014
Sys Rq: Vote against, Western Australia!
Happy to say that we did, as we did 3 times before that. Daylight saving has its place but Western Australia isn't exactly low on sunlight. When it's regularly 37C in the late afternoon, I'll take free office airconditioning over extra daylight, thanks.
OK, I admit I did like the extra sunlight at the end of the day, but it would take me a full week to adjust to the one hour time difference. Overall not worth it for me (and I say this as someone who had to do business with the 3-hours ahead people in the East).
posted by pianissimo at 7:27 AM on November 6, 2014
Happy to say that we did, as we did 3 times before that. Daylight saving has its place but Western Australia isn't exactly low on sunlight. When it's regularly 37C in the late afternoon, I'll take free office airconditioning over extra daylight, thanks.
OK, I admit I did like the extra sunlight at the end of the day, but it would take me a full week to adjust to the one hour time difference. Overall not worth it for me (and I say this as someone who had to do business with the 3-hours ahead people in the East).
posted by pianissimo at 7:27 AM on November 6, 2014
My point here has been that it doesn't matter what anyone's personal preference is. DTC costs more, and is more inefficient.
This same argument could probably be used to justify any number of onerous social policies.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:42 AM on November 7, 2014
This same argument could probably be used to justify any number of onerous social policies.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:42 AM on November 7, 2014
So, on the Icelandic accent (I'm Icelandic)... it's hard to tell if it's real or fake because he's shouting and if he's lived in an English-speaking country for a while he might have picked up features of the local accent. But it sounds close enough for me to think that he's probably Icelandic. The pictures of him in the first couple of still photographs are definitely from Iceland.
Anyway, his name would be spelled Óskar.
posted by Kattullus at 1:03 PM on November 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Anyway, his name would be spelled Óskar.
posted by Kattullus at 1:03 PM on November 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Daylight -to- Standard and back changes are one of the two communal fencepost problems that madden. Only surpassed by the scoring in bowling alleys. agh.
You should have seen me trying to explain this to my Mom one year with a globe, a small flashlight, and a clock. Etc. etc.
Rote rules rule! Spring forward; Fall back! (Why are we talking about this in mid-November?).
Try <>, etc. next time. Spring =>; Fall <=.
posted by StephenDouglasKan at 7:02 AM on November 19, 2014
You should have seen me trying to explain this to my Mom one year with a globe, a small flashlight, and a clock. Etc. etc.
Rote rules rule! Spring forward; Fall back! (Why are we talking about this in mid-November?).
Try <>, etc. next time. Spring =>; Fall <=.
posted by StephenDouglasKan at 7:02 AM on November 19, 2014
"Rote rules rule! Spring forward; Fall back!"
That never worked for me -- and I consider it a bad mnemonic -- because you can spring forward (in haste) or backward (in alarm) and you can fall forward or backward. So I was never able to keep it straight.
I fixed it in my own head by changing it to "Spring up, Fall down".
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:12 PM on November 19, 2014
That never worked for me -- and I consider it a bad mnemonic -- because you can spring forward (in haste) or backward (in alarm) and you can fall forward or backward. So I was never able to keep it straight.
I fixed it in my own head by changing it to "Spring up, Fall down".
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:12 PM on November 19, 2014
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