Dunkin’ and the Doughnut King
November 13, 2014 7:39 AM   Subscribe

Ted Ngoy overcame poverty and escaped genocide, made a fortune off doughnuts and gambled it all away. Today, Ngoy is back on top — but America’s biggest doughnut chain could threaten the hundreds of California shops that are his legacy.
posted by Chrysostom (68 comments total) 21 users marked this as a favorite
 
Man, I miss the ubiquity of donuts in a pink box handed to me by a Cambodian American. I remember how confused my San Francisco coworkers were when I first asked about the pink box. "What do you mean? All donuts come in pink boxes!" Not on the east coast, they don't.
posted by deludingmyself at 7:46 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


...Y'know, even here in the Dunkin Donuts homeland, we do manage to have non-Dunkin donut shops.
posted by maryr at 7:50 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Man, I miss Twin Donut from my days living in The Boogie Down Bronx.
posted by KingEdRa at 7:55 AM on November 13, 2014


Here in Denver we have Voodoo Donuts now (smartly moving into town following the legalization of recreational marijuana & setting up shop next to a dispensary on Colfax), but for me, the best donut is all about quality first, creativity second. My personal favorites are still from Sublime Doughnuts in Atlanta. Kamal Grant's been hitting it outta Home Park for about six years now, and it's been awesome to see him getting some wider recognition lately... even if I haven't had one of those exquisite dulce de leche yeast-raised donuts in what seems like forever.
posted by deludingmyself at 7:59 AM on November 13, 2014 [6 favorites]


If anyone would like to send me doughnuts stat at my desk, I will accept them.

(And also seconding the love for Sublime in the ATL.)
posted by Kitteh at 8:00 AM on November 13, 2014


...Y'know, even here in the Dunkin Donuts homeland, we do manage to have non-Dunkin donut shops.

Dunkin' Donuts sells coffee, muffins, bagels and breakfast sandwiches. If you've ever bought one of the doughnuts, they're stale, as they don't sell. The muffins are nice, and usually fresh, as are the bagels, croissants and even the cookies. The doughnuts, man, nobody goes in there for a donut. They go in for a box of them to apologize to their colleagues that they have to work on whatever it is so early. Real donut shops hereabouts in New England open and close ridiculously early.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:02 AM on November 13, 2014 [5 favorites]


The success of Dunk's mystifies me. The doughnuts are frankly lousy. I'm not a coffee drinker, but my wife says that's not really any good either. So what is the appeal?
posted by Chrysostom at 8:02 AM on November 13, 2014 [7 favorites]


I grew up close to Winston-Salem, North Carolina, so for me the Platonic ideal of doughnut comes in a white and green box.
posted by infinitewindow at 8:03 AM on November 13, 2014 [6 favorites]


This Boston Globe Sunday Magazine piece about the kingpins of Dunkin is also worth reading in relation to the story here
posted by briank at 8:05 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


I've always thought that to enjoy Dunkin you must prefer a cake donut that has been glazed or frosted to prevent moisture loss, and you should probably want to dip it into your coffee. Also, they were probably less stale in the 80s and early 90s with higher turnover.
posted by deludingmyself at 8:05 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]


I had some terrific donuts in San Francisco one time. Really good. I thought the shop was Vietnamese but perhaps that was my ignorance and it was run by Cambodians. There was a buttermilk donut, I wish I had such a buttermilk donut right now.

You can't get meaningful donuts in Minneapolis. There's artisanal hipster donuts around town, and our local tiny-cake-donuts-with-cinnamon-sugar, but the hipster donuts are too heavy and usually have weird ingredients plus the clientele is obnoxious and I'm not really into the other kind. Also, most of the hipster shops have depressing, tough vegan donuts which have ruined people's sense of what a donut should be. In most respects, the food here is miles above what I ate growing up, but you can't get decent donuts and you can't get good Italian, and growing up outside of Chicago I always thought those two things were universal constants.

The old student cafe at my college had great donuts - limited selection, but just perfect. Also you could get a real malt. Where are the malts of yesteryear? Not around here, that's for sure.
posted by Frowner at 8:07 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]


Save yourself California! Dunkin Donuts is awful. Their coffee tastes like moldy walnuts.
posted by All Out of Lulz at 8:11 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


But even if you're a cake donut afficionado: the Boston area has developed better examples of the form. It looks like it's now closed, but I spent the summer of 2010 working weekdays out of Billerica, MA, where this random side of the road breakfast shop called Jardek's was putting out a lineup that changed my opinion of cake donuts entirely. And up in Michigan, Ann Arborites have the Washtenaw Dairy, which you'd think would be a place best known for its ice cream, but no, it's a tiny shop out of time with perfectly okay ice cream, terrible coffee, the same six old guys sitting at a table talking about the local news, and amazing seasonal cake donuts. Tossup between apple cider and buttermilk blueberry as my favorite there, with the latter probably winning because the best cider donuts should be eaten hot.
posted by deludingmyself at 8:12 AM on November 13, 2014


deludingmyself: Here in Denver we have Voodoo Donuts now (smartly moving into town following the legalization of recreational marijuana & setting up shop next to a dispensary on Colfax)

Are they as stale and gross as the ones in Portland are?

My favorite donut in Portland is off SE Belmont and 25th at a little house called Rocking Frog Cafe. Their donuts are made to order and are probably the best I've ever had. I've heard Pip's, up in NE, are great too but I haven't made it up there to try them.
posted by gucci mane at 8:13 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


I live in the metroplex which has roughly one donut shop per 10 residents and I think most of the independent shops around here are basically all Cambodian or Vietnamese run. It seems to be the new default entrepreneurial venture (low startup and labor costs in comparison to most restaurants).
They generally aren't the greatest donuts but they are invariably fresh and generally a fraction of the cost that the chain donut shops charge. It's pretty much the 21st century version of the Chinese-American Chinese Restaurant or the Greek-American diner - a ticket to greater prosperity for the next generation.

There are also the more boutique donuts shops but those you really only pull out when you want to impress clients.
posted by vuron at 8:15 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


WBEZ's great local history program "Curious City" recently tackled why there are so few locally owned donut shops in Chicago. In the process, they talked to former Dunkin' Donuts CEO (and son of the founder) Bob Rosenberg about the company's 1960s policy of "fortressing" markets, and why he realized on a crosscountry road trip that it would never work in LA. It apparently took them half a century to change their minds.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:16 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


Are they as stale and gross as the ones in Portland are?

You know, I honestly haven't tried them here. I've tried the ones in Portland, but I was really not in an objective doughnut-judging state at the time. *thinks back to drunk conversation with the bouncer at Kontrol Bar & solemnly swearing that I will not eat or give away any of the donuts in the box when going back inside to retrieve my husband*

Most hipster donuts are too sweet for me, though. Too much icing. Like what's happened to cupcakes. It's sad.
posted by deludingmyself at 8:17 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Sublime Doughnuts in Atlanta

seconding the love for Sublime in the ATL

Thirding, but also giving a shout out to Revolution Donuts in Atlanta's sister city, Decatur.

Given Atlanta's landmark Krispy Kreme on North Ave and Decatur's (dis)honorable mention as the home of the Luther Burger, I think it's fair to say that future alien archaeologists will rightly determine the the Atlanta area was home to a cult that participated in ritual coronary sacrifice to sweet circular deities.
posted by Panjandrum at 8:18 AM on November 13, 2014 [6 favorites]


Gah! Dunkin Donuts coffee is brown pishwater. The donuts, which used to be made in-house are now made in a factory and shipped to each location. The new "Not a Cronut" is in such limited supply because they have no idea of actual local demand. And what the heck, can't a cruller get an even shake around here?

Honey Dew is miles above Dunkies, and Kanes, well Kane's donuts should be labeled a controlled substance.
posted by Gungho at 8:20 AM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]


wow! i grew up in modesto, i own a Mr. T's Donut shop t-shirt which i bought on my last visit, mainly because of the new dunkin across the street, just to show my loyalty. I heard people talking about it all over town...and they are not happy about a big corporate shop opening up across the street from a local favorite. It isn't even a great intersection for something like that, so its obvious they are trying to knock out Mr. T's. Not even the Starbucks lasted in the shopping center on the other side.
posted by th3ph17 at 8:24 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Given Atlanta's landmark Krispy Kreme on North Ave and Decatur's (dis)honorable mention as the home of the Luther Burger, I think it's fair to say that future alien archaeologists will rightly determine the the Atlanta area was home to a cult that participated in ritual coronary sacrifice to sweet circular deities.

Gah, now you're making me miss Atlanta. I always meant to try a Luther Burger, but it's the sort of thing I'd have to be in the right mood for. Don't really understand the caloric hate for it, though; it's basically the same number of calories as any burger off the Chili's menu.
posted by deludingmyself at 8:25 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Better-Maid Donuts in Pittsburgh. They open at 6 AM, only take cash and close when they run out of donuts for the day, usually around 9 or 10 in the morning. I actually didn't ever know the name of the place until googling it right now since the sign on the place just says "Fresh Donuts".

Dunkin has been moving into the area lately but people here are pretty loyal to the local shops.
posted by octothorpe at 8:29 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Don't really understand the caloric hate for it, though; it's basically the same number of calories as any burger off the Chili's menu.

If one finds it necessary to use the Chili's menu as a point of reference for the caloric content of the thing one is eating, one should probably not be eating that thing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:29 AM on November 13, 2014 [5 favorites]


I was just in Dallas so I made sure to stop by Mustang Donuts for a plain glazed. Usually I like plainer donuts instead of the crazy hipster donuts, but the creme brulee donut at Von Doughnuts in Toronto is one of the best things I've ever eaten. SO GOOD.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 8:35 AM on November 13, 2014


I'm sitting about four subway stops from the birthplace of Dunks at the mo, so take this report with a grain of salt of you like, but I find the new Dark Roast to be pretty decent coffee. I'm mostly a brew at home from local roaster type, and while their regular coffee is pretty medicore, I like the dark version fine. Not as good as what I make myself, but perfectly happy with it on those mornings when I don't have time.
posted by Diablevert at 8:40 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


In Portland, Tonalli's wins HANDS DOWN!!
posted by Asbestos McPinto at 8:42 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


If one finds it necessary to use the Chili's menu as a point of reference for the caloric content of the thing one is eating, one should probably not be eating that thing.

Touché, You Can't Tip a Buick.
posted by deludingmyself at 8:44 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


My core objections to the Luther Burger is how does a bad double glazed donut actually hold up to a warm hamburger patty and various toppings. I'm fussy and fastidious and the idea of wearing a sugar glazed burger is not super appealing.
posted by vuron at 8:46 AM on November 13, 2014


I usually brew my own coffee at home, but DD coffee is called for in a few situations: camping, when someone else (who chickened out at stayed at a hotel) brings a Box O' Joe; during late-night outages at work, when I know that I need to be well-caffeinated; or when painting a house/helping someone move.

As stated upthread, there are other chains in New England. Honey Dew is awesome, and Bess Eaton was interesting (with bible versus on their ocffee cups) until they were sold to Tim Horton's -- who has since withdrawn from the battlefield, leaving some former Bess Eaton employees to buy back the rights and re-open four locations.

And while there are other donuts in New Englnd, many of them are wild, untamed beasts, like the leaden brutes from Allie's [SLTUrbanspoon] in North Kingstown, RI, who inspire a curiously fierce following.

(N.b.: I am writing from Rhode Island, firmly under the thumb of DD. Heck, our town's convention center is actually named the Dunkin' Donuts Center! But I stil can't bring myself to say that I like them.)
posted by wenestvedt at 8:49 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


If you're in the East Bay, King Pin Donuts or go home.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:52 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


Donut snobs in this topic.

Just because a donut comes in a pink box, doesn't make it high quality. There are a lot of crappy donut places locally owned in Southern California, and some can't survive on donuts alone so also sell sandwiches or even Chinese food. And yeah there are artisanal donut places, but I can't bring myself to pay the same amount for a donut as I would for lunch or a matinee movie ticket.

I don't understand why Dunkin is viewed as such a large threat. Neither Krispy Kreme or Starbucks killed the locals when they came to Southern California, and I doubt that Dunkin will either.

And for all the Dunkin hate, when the one in Santa Monica opened a couple of months ago, the line was out the door and around the block.
posted by FJT at 8:55 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Dunkin has been moving into the area lately but people here are pretty loyal to the local shops.

Here's the thing: No one says there isn't room for both. A national burrito chain moved in to my neighborhood and I was annoyed that the better, local place would suffer but guess what, they're both doing fine.
posted by maryr at 8:57 AM on November 13, 2014


Here in southeast Texas the non-chain donut shops seem to be run by Vietnamese so you can occasionally get a lunchtime bahn mi along with your donut. Dunkin is trying to make inroads, but the definitive item on any donut shop menu here is a kolache (a sort of pig-in-a-blanket, frequently with jalepeno) and Dunkin's kolache's are so horrible that the only people who frequent them are transplants from the northeast looking for dry donuts.
posted by Runes at 8:58 AM on November 13, 2014


Yeah but there really isn't such a thing as peak burrito. There might not be something like peak donut but for the sake of our waistlines maybe there should be.
posted by vuron at 8:59 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Is Winchell's still any good? Were they ever? They imprinted on me as The Best Donuts early in life but I haven't been to one in years. I don't think I've ever been to a Dunkin.

Krispy Kremes are good but they barely qualify as donuts. They are a donut-inspired food.

Where I live is definitely Cambodian territory. The donut quality really depends on the individual shop, though.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2014


gucci mane: "Are they as stale and gross as the ones in Portland are? "

Nobody know's because the line's too fukken long to get a goddamn donut of all things, ferchrissake.
posted by boo_radley at 9:25 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


octothorpe: "Better-Maid Donuts in Pittsburgh. "

D'Angeli's in Rochester are good, too.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:32 AM on November 13, 2014


I really don't like doughnuts and can't remember the last time I had one (probably from a Tim Hortons box at some horrible work related meeting). But that was a super interesting article and I liked the graphics too. Thanks!
posted by jamesonandwater at 9:44 AM on November 13, 2014


The original hole-in-the-wall Voodoo Doughnuts (here in Portland), while never having been a particularly great product, was at least a fun, scrappy place to go for a late-night novelty after beers. Now it's descended firmly into a bridge-and-tunnel, gotta-get-the-t-shirt destination with incongruously long lines... it's feeling franchised and low(er) quality. My young kids like it but it bums me out because of what it once was. Get off my lawn, etc.

Tonalli's on the east side is okay, but Blue Star doughnuts in SW (around the corner from the Crystal Ballroom) are the shit... I would step over my own mother for one. Some may deride them as hipster/artisanal/whatever, but they're making everything fresh right in front of you--slicing apples for the fritter fillings, etc. I've never seen anything come out of a can there, and their seemingly simple old-fashioneds are transformative.
posted by rodeoclown at 9:44 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


D'Angeli's in Rochester are good, too.

Kind of a long haul out of the city for a donut. I don't think that anything is worth driving on rt. 65 for.
posted by octothorpe at 9:48 AM on November 13, 2014


In the Chicago 'burbs, I'm a devotee of Spunky Dunkers in Arlington Heights, now in their fourth decade. They provide a ton of variety and goodness not by going the hipster experimentalism route, but by regularly fresh baking every conceivable flavor a good mom n' pop shop might have had in 1962.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:06 AM on November 13, 2014


you must prefer a cake donut that has been glazed or frosted to prevent moisture loss

This is how I eat donut holes from the Dunkin's in Carl's Corner on the way home from Dallas. A half-dozen is about right.

For actual donuts, I'm a Shipley's gal because that's what I grew up with. I'm a donut addict, too: put them in front of me and I'll eat until there are no more. Dunkin and Krispy Kreme are only methadone for the heroin that is a Shipley donut, though. (The gourmet donuts from Gourdough's here in Austin are an occasional treat and mostly I want a Monte Cristo sandwich made from one. Damn this thread for sparking my cravings.)
posted by immlass at 10:12 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


As a Brit the idea that donuts are primarily a breakfast food is mind blowing.

It's so tempting to make *that* joke.
posted by Erberus at 10:20 AM on November 13, 2014


And for all the Dunkin hate, when the one in Santa Monica opened a couple of months ago, the line was out the door and around the block.

With 10 million plus people in the LA metro area, our population of "assholes who will wait in line for 2 hours for a shit product just to tell their friends/Instragram about it" is pretty high.

Another local example of this phenomenon is the crowds at Pink's on La Brea.
posted by sideshow at 10:21 AM on November 13, 2014 [6 favorites]


And for all the Dunkin hate, when the one in Santa Monica opened a couple of months ago, the line was out the door and around the block.

When the novelty wears off everyone will go back to DK's (a fine doughnut) a few blocks away.

My other area favorites: Primo's, Stan's, and of course, The Big O*.

I've always been a simple raised (not glazed) sugar doughnut girl so as long as it's fresh it's pretty hard to mess up.

Another local example of this phenomenon is the crowds at Pink's on La Brea.

I always wonder how many of them are locals.


*In one of the recent apocalyptic-event-hits-LA movies the giant Randy's doughnut breaks off and can be seen rolling wild through the streets of Pasadena, nearly 30 miles away.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:33 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


octothorpe: "Kind of a long haul out of the city for a donut. I don't think that anything is worth driving on rt. 65 for."

Some of us live on 65, so.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:34 AM on November 13, 2014


DirtyOldTown: "In the Chicago 'burbs, I'm a devotee of Spunky Dunkers in Arlington Heights, now in their fourth decade."

Aren't they in Palatine, too?
posted by Chrysostom at 10:35 AM on November 13, 2014


My favorite donut in Portland is off SE Belmont and 25th at a little house called Rocking Frog Cafe

Thanks, gucci mane. That's about 3 block from where I get my hair cut next week. I'll give it a shot. Even though I'm currently on a low/carb Atkins style diet. Even though I don't like donuts very much.
posted by Auden at 10:45 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Too much icing.

I'm hoping the next artisanal hipster snack trend is frosting. Just frosting. Served in a bowl with a spoon. Once the self-serve frozen yogurt trend dies down you could repurpose some of those machines as frosting dispensers.
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:53 AM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]


Aren't they [Spunky Dunkers] in Palatine, too?

They are, yeah. I had forgotten about that one.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:54 AM on November 13, 2014


Clicked on the article hoping to see something about the DK Donuts in Santa Monica at 16th. Was not disappointed!!! A photo and caption are pretty sweet.

It is the all-time greatest donut store any where in the world, perhaps the universe.

They make a truly perfect boston cream (take that DD). Their double-dipped chocolate old fashioned, completely covered in a 1/8-inch layer of chocolate, is the perfect balance of cake and frosting. And the non-donut double-dipped chocolate brownie with nuts might be the most magnificent baked item ever.

The most disappointing part of living in Silver Lake is that DK is so close, yet so far away.
posted by veritas que at 11:01 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


Dunkin Donuts made a blueberry and a strawberry cake doughnut that was the bomb to my childhood self. They were artificially-flavored to hell, I'm sure, but man did I love them. Haven't been in a DD lately to see if they still make them--the last one I can recall in town closed years ago.

As mentioned above, Voodoo Doughnuts is more a tourist destination than anything--there was an article about them in Willamette Week about it a while back that made working there seem like hell. Blue Star is where it's at. (Yes, the blueberry/bourbon/basil really is that color in person, maybe more so.)
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:22 AM on November 13, 2014


FedNuts in Philly, represent!
posted by ifjuly at 11:23 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm hoping the next artisanal hipster snack trend is frosting. Just frosting. Served in a bowl with a spoon. Once the self-serve frozen yogurt trend dies down you could repurpose some of those machines as frosting dispensers.

Google "frosting shots" and rejoice/despair as applicable
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:25 AM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]


I'm hoping the next artisanal hipster snack trend is frosting. Just frosting. Served in a bowl with a spoon. Once the self-serve frozen yogurt trend dies down you could repurpose some of those machines as frosting dispensers.

Within the last few weeks, I've curled up on the couch with a comic book, a container of frosting, and a spoon. My path isn't for everyone though.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:52 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


Previously: Chinese and doughnuts: A California tradition

It seems to actually be about Cambodian-owned shops.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:53 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Ohh, I remember when I was really little, before we moved to California, going with my Dad to Chock Full o'Nuts in NYC and loving the cake/plain doughnuts. Sadly, it looks like they may not sell doughnuts anymore but I'd love one of those again.
posted by Room 641-A at 12:15 PM on November 13, 2014


I like that the Metafilter front page right now contains both the words "doughnut" and "donut."
posted by Juliet Banana at 12:41 PM on November 13, 2014 [6 favorites]


I'm surprised by the dislike of DD coffee. I've always thought it was just fine.
posted by jpe at 2:26 PM on November 13, 2014


I think I may have to get a doughnut on the way home.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:58 PM on November 13, 2014


I'd had also assumed it was mostly Chinese immigrants running the doughnut shops in the SF Bay, because a lot of them do have Chinese food. Count me as having little idea about the Khmer bakery empire.
posted by atoxyl at 3:06 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


I mean, not that I'm unfamiliar with the idea that one might run a restaurant from an ethnic tradition that is not exactly one's own. I'm just not as aware of the presence of the Cambodian diaspora as I ought to be living where I do.
posted by atoxyl at 3:36 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


If you're in the East Bay, King Pin Donuts or go home.

you know what's an astounding coincidence is that their fresh-baking hours overlap really closely with peak wandering-in-stoned hours...
posted by atoxyl at 3:55 PM on November 13, 2014


It wouldn't surprise me if they're run by Cambodian-Chinese like Ted Ngoy. Here in NY all the Vietnamese restaurants are run by Vietnamese-Chinese. Chinese are a pretty numerous ethnic group in Southeast Asian countries.

Awesome story, by the way. Amazing someone could have the business acumen to work from rags to riches over decades and then lose it all to gambling and bad decisions. Glad he made it back.
posted by pravit at 8:18 PM on November 13, 2014


Oaklanders know it's all about Donut Farm. (aka Pepples if you're looking at the pastry case at any of the better coffee houses around here.)
posted by Lexica at 8:45 PM on November 13, 2014



It wouldn't surprise me if they're run by Cambodian-Chinese like Ted Ngoy. Here in NY all the Vietnamese restaurants are run by Vietnamese-Chinese. Chinese are a pretty numerous ethnic group in Southeast Asian countries.


Good point - because the article refers to him speaking Khmer I kinda glossed over that part.
posted by atoxyl at 8:53 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


I grew up close to Winston-Salem, North Carolina, so for me the Platonic ideal of doughnut comes in a white and green box.

People, if you come down here and don't like Krispy Kreme (protip: they're only passable if they're still hot (not warm, HOT)), don't tell anyone. People get really touchy about their weird sort of doughnuts.

I found out by saying so and everyone was super grumpy!
posted by winna at 11:03 AM on November 14, 2014


Late to the party, but the only truly good doughnuts are simple glazed doughnuts from Daylight Donuts (yes, it is a franchise, but a delicious franchise), which are sadly not as widespread as they ought to be given their sweet perfection.
posted by wierdo at 7:37 PM on November 15, 2014


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