The Comic-Book Guys Quivering in Fear of Cosplay
December 11, 2014 7:32 AM   Subscribe

Noah Berlatsky in The Atlantic discusses how the backlash against cosplay in the comic book community is an illustration of the community's struggles with the gendering of their fandom.

The backlash to cosplay is in part guys trying to keep girls out of the male clubhouse. But in this context it can also be seen as feminized guys panicking at yet another in a long line of demonstrations that the male clubhouse isn't all that male to begin with. You could argue that cosplay's associations with fashion actually make it more highbrow than comics—the New York fashion runway and the New York gallery scene are more kin than either is to low pulp superhero comics. Cosplay is appropriating superheroes for art, much as pop art has done—and some in comics fear the results.
posted by NoxAeternum (114 comments total) 18 users marked this as a favorite
 
There is a backlash? I had no idea. Of course, in my circles, cosplay is dressing up as pastel ponies, so other social dynamics may apply. In MLP fandom, cosplayers continue to be celebrated – at least at the cons, I have attended.
posted by bouvin at 7:38 AM on December 11, 2014 [3 favorites]


Is it at all widespread to charge for having your picture taken? I saw an awful lot of people dressed up at the comic con I attended last year (the only one I have ever been to), but I didn't see any evidence of people trying to get money for posing. I did see more than one person looking rather disengaged before, during and after striking the pose they must have practiced over and over. It looked pretty artificial, I guess, but so does fashion modeling.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 7:46 AM on December 11, 2014


I'll believe this isn't 100% garbage misogyny when these dudes begin including NFL fanbros in replica jerseys in their rants.
posted by almostmanda at 7:47 AM on December 11, 2014 [34 favorites]


Has anybody outside of Broderick and Ellis joined this "backlash"? All the comics pros I've seen talk about this have said something along the lines of "wow, get a load of these assholes."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:50 AM on December 11, 2014 [3 favorites]


Tony Harris sang this song in 2012.
posted by almostmanda at 7:55 AM on December 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


In MLP fandom, cosplayers continue to be celebrated – at least at the cons, I have attended.

I suspect the people being talked about here see MLP fandom as part of the problem.
posted by Naberius at 8:01 AM on December 11, 2014 [4 favorites]


This is starting to sound like that what this is really about is ethics in cosplay journalism
posted by surazal at 8:03 AM on December 11, 2014 [33 favorites]


Has anybody outside of Broderick and Ellis joined this "backlash"? All the comics pros I've seen talk about this have said something along the lines of "wow, get a load of these assholes."

Pretty much the case with ever
yone I know.

I have sold a ton of comics to cosplayers and at cons the Dredd cosplayers have been the most enthusiastic to meet me and actually seem to think I am an actual real famous people. Cosplayers are great.

I suspect the people who crap on cosplayers have other problems with their business model and attitude.
posted by Artw at 8:05 AM on December 11, 2014 [29 favorites]


As Almostmanda noted, illustrator Tony Harris fought this battle a few years back.
There are definitely some hard core comics folk that do not want casual fans at the cons.

People have this idea that Cons and geek-dom are this all inclusive place.
In reality, many of the nerdist at this cons are massive misogynist. Again, see Tony Harris.
posted by Flood at 8:06 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Tony Harris revels in being one of comic's arch-conservatives.

The others to complain out loud so far are guys I'd never heard of, and I'm a big comics reader and have been for decades. They're older, they've had less work lately, and they're looking for something, anything, to blame for their failure to make any money at their tables at the cons. So they blame the cosplayers who do seem to be getting attention, instead of the fact that just maybe there's not that much interest in the guy who drew Firestorm in 1982, or the "#1 Star Wars Artist of All Time" as decided by a Star Wars magazine in 1996.
posted by thecjm at 8:06 AM on December 11, 2014 [6 favorites]


Is it at all widespread to charge for having your picture taken?

No, but it happens. In the few cases where I've seen people trying to charge for photos at cons, they didn't strike me as fans at all but more like stripper types with taut bodies and chain mail bikinis, whose rather cynical plan was to exploit the stereotypical fat, horny geeks they expected to find there.
posted by Naberius at 8:11 AM on December 11, 2014


This is starting to sound like that what this is really about is ethics in cosplay journalism

Quick! Find out who Elizabeth Simins is sleeping with! She's the missing link between gaming and comic ethics!
posted by Talez at 8:14 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Why would you be afraid of women taking an interest in what you like? They have vaginas, guys. Real ones.

I get the point you are making and appreciate the attempt to open up spaces socially reserved for men, but I think there are a few issues with this kind of thinking, something in which I have myself engaged so I totally do get it:

1) It reinforces the idea that women are around as sex objects.
2) It only opens up spaces for "attractive" women, and doesn't help (and can hurt) women with whom these men don't want to have sex.
3) It leads to women who actually want to be in these spaces being told they are only there for attention.
4) It can change the way women think about themselves and each other, and this can be really pernicious.

When I was younger and on IRC channels, I bought into the "HEY LOOK GUYS I AM A LEGIT GIRL" thing HARD. It made me dismissive of other women, it made me think of myself as a sex object, and it made me present myself in inappropriate ways. I have definitely bought into this line of thinking, and even propogated it -- "You totally want me around! I am a girl, and I'm slutty!" -- but it doesn't actually help women be accepted in these spaces and it can do internal as well as social harm.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:15 AM on December 11, 2014 [100 favorites]


There are definitely some hard core comics folk that do not want casual fans at the cons.


Ironic, considering the anything but casual amount of effort that goes into a good cosplay.
posted by bouvin at 8:15 AM on December 11, 2014 [23 favorites]


GamerGate has been a grim shitfest but one of the enjoyable moments of it was when they tried to make #comicgate a thing and were universally told to fuck off.
posted by Artw at 8:17 AM on December 11, 2014 [13 favorites]


Tony Harris revels in being one of comic's arch-conservatives.
By 'conservative' you mean: misogynistic jerk.
posted by Flood at 8:18 AM on December 11, 2014


The irony about the stereotypical, older, cranky complainer harkening back to the good ol' days is that I've seen photos of cons from the 1970's that are full of cosplayers, include women showing a LOT more skin that any cosplayer could get away with now. Straight up naked with maybe a thong and a lot of body paint.

Or maybe these cranks are more of the 1980's generation of creators, and everything they do and think is punctuated with, "GRRRRR!"
posted by thecjm at 8:19 AM on December 11, 2014 [4 favorites]


Oh, Lichtenstein. The human Xerox.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:23 AM on December 11, 2014 [5 favorites]


full of cosplayers, include women showing a LOT more skin that any cosplayer could get away with now. Straight up naked with maybe a thong and a lot of body paint.

Nobody's threatened by an army of Slave Leias who know their place. They're feeling threatened because suddenly it's all full of Genderflipped Steampunk Ghostbusters.
posted by sukeban at 8:26 AM on December 11, 2014 [33 favorites]


I don't read comics or go to cons, but I love seeing the photos people post of the creative homemade costumes. Why anyone would be opposed is beyond me.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:31 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


On Complaints Against Cosplay
posted by Artw at 8:33 AM on December 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


Genderflipped, genre-swapping cosplayers are my absolute favourite cosplayers. I'd take a dozen of them over one cranky old guy I've never heard of in artist alley
posted by thecjm at 8:33 AM on December 11, 2014 [9 favorites]


No, but it happens. In the few cases where I've seen people trying to charge for photos at cons, they didn't strike me as fans at all but more like stripper types with taut bodies and chain mail bikinis, whose rather cynical plan was to exploit the stereotypical fat, horny geeks they expected to find there.

Its interesting how this evolves, previously "No True Nerd Girl" was anyone attractive at a convention - now apparently it is anyone attractive at a convention who wants to make money off nerds (as opposed to the whole rest of the convention which is in no way solely in existence so lots of people can make money off nerds?). That is progress of a sort I guess.
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 8:36 AM on December 11, 2014 [6 favorites]


My experience is more with anime-centered cons but I go to multiple anime cons a year where you're guaranteed to see people dressed up as Deadpool and whatnot. I would say that in general cosplay skews younger, and I think in general comics skew older. The cosplay contest is usually the most important event at the cons and cosplayers are pretty much the average attendee rather than some controversial minority. Also the general audience at the cons I go to is very progressive in terms of gender and most other topics, mentioning gamergate or the GOP in a panel will tend to get loud boos from pretty much everyone. I would guess that this is less about cosplay in particular and more about how the demographics of fandoms for geeky media are changing.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:39 AM on December 11, 2014


I've never heard of an anti-cos movement, but then again I don't go to cons so I have no frame of reference.

I like looking at cos creations, especially when there are massive replica weapons and armor involved, but is this the place where I can complain about the ridiculous amount of photoshoppery that goes into cosplay photo roundups? I mean, yeah, it's obviously tied to larger issues of body-imagery in comics and anime, but it is awful.
posted by Think_Long at 8:39 AM on December 11, 2014


Fuck Lichtenstein though.
posted by Artw at 8:40 AM on December 11, 2014 [14 favorites]


It's like these comic fans never saw anime cosplay. Women have been highly active in anime cosplay for decades, judging from old photos I've seen (and the fact my last anime con was over a decade ago).

See also: Man-Faye, genderswapping one of the most well-know fan-service characters [who isn't just fan-service, but seriously, she ends up in handcuffs a surprising number of times (warning: Cowboy Bebop spoilers), and usually in her most common small yellow outfit (Google image search, skimpy bikini-clad anime character-type NSFW)]. Anyway, Man-Faye rocked his costume:
I assume your costume got quite mixed reviews. Did the negative attention bother you at all?

Not really, I was picked on a lot as a kid, and I learned how to deal with negative attention—namely to own it.

...

Do you have any reason for prolonging the costume? Why keep doing it?

Well, there are a few reasons I still don the golden hot pants. One is the massive swell of fan mail I get. I've gotten quite a few very touching emails about how I inspired people to do everything from wear the racy costume they never had the nerve to wear, to come out of the closet to their parents.

I must admit, being a celebrity is a lot of fun. I never seem to get tired of people screaming my name and lining up to smack my ass. Though, I have had to make a rule: hands only—no paddles, shinai, or other implements.
Fuck yeah, Man-Faye!
posted by filthy light thief at 8:49 AM on December 11, 2014 [12 favorites]


Lichtenstein didn't "co-opt" comics, he straight up plagiarized them.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:51 AM on December 11, 2014 [8 favorites]


It seems there is definitely a pro-level type of cosplayer given the time/resource intensiveness some folks put in to their costumes. And at that level, do they really have to know the character they are playing or pass some litmus/knowledge test vs having a great costume ? How much money are we talking about for winning a prize ?
posted by k5.user at 8:51 AM on December 11, 2014


Genderflipped Steampunk Ghostbusters.

how do I get a lot more of this kind of thing everywhere please this sounds amazing.

eugenie spengler in an 1842 walking dress and a phlogiston-pressurized ghost tank.
posted by winna at 8:52 AM on December 11, 2014 [14 favorites]


They're feeling threatened because suddenly it's all full of Genderflipped Steampunk Ghostbusters.

Oh, God, it's this. This outward declaration that the entire canon of 700+ issues of Superman isn't the part that is important to you, the fan. That's SO OFFENSIVE to these guys. That you can pick and choose which parts of fandom to like instead of grudgingly clinging to the good and the bad to win the #1 biggest fan contest that we're all supposed to be silently participating in. They HATE this stuff because they know the person doing it isn't going to be shamed by not being able to name Green Lantern's parents or read Doopspeak or whatever.
posted by almostmanda at 9:00 AM on December 11, 2014 [13 favorites]


Didn't anyone tell them? We're not only supposed to like the same things, but to the same degree, and in the same way! Expressing that fandom in any other way is proof that you just aren't getting it!
posted by grubi at 9:02 AM on December 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


I've seen a lot of talk about this on Twitter.

Part of what's happening is that comics shows are kind of splitting and moving in two different directions.

Big, mainstream "comic cons" like SDCC and NYCC have been colonized by media fans and the people who want to sell things to media fans. (And by media, I mostly mean movies and television.) However, these are still the best place to go if your work is meant to appeal to mainstream comics readers -- basically, superhero books, media tie-ins, and the kinds of series that people who like superhero books and media tie ins might want to try. These cons are getting more and more expensive to exhibit at, and sales vary enormously -- if you aren't well established, or if your work doesn't fit handily into the pocket of what the attendees are looking for, you can loose a LOT of money.

These mainstream comic cons are also harder and harder to get tickets for and are pricey to attend. Which means that most of those tickets are going to go to people who are extremely excited to see and do very specific things at the con -- a panel for the new MCU movie, a chance to get an autograph from an actor you love, the ability to commission a sketch from or have a conversation with a famous comics artist. People who used to go to these shows without a particular agenda -- I have some time, I have some cash, I'll walk around and look at people's books and pick up whatever looks interesting -- have gotten kind of squeezed out. I mean...look, I LOVE comics, and I would never go to SDCC or NYCC if I had to pay for a ticket. At this point, I kind of don't want to go PERIOD. It's just not worth the trouble.

The other direction is...basically the polar opposite of this. Small, often curated shows -- they get called "CAFs" a lot, as in Comics Arts Festivals -- like TCAF, MICE, MeCAF, MoCCA, SPX, Staple, Autoptic and CAKE. They're often run by a comic shop that's in the area, or a collective of local artists. The tables are often much less expensive. There's programming, but less of it, and all directly tied to comics. They're often free or very inexpensive to attend. There are sometimes a few indie publishers or imprints -- First Second, Top Shelf, Fantagraphics, Drawn and Quarterly -- but mostly you go there to buy self-published comics directly from the people who made them, or to talk to those artists about their work, or to see them on a panel.

The people who are particularly angry right now are the people who're caught in the middle of these two shows -- they're too mainstream in one way or another to really fit in at the CAFs, but they're not established enough or not Doing The Thing enough to get any attention at Comic Cons.

Also: CAF shows are less expensive to exhibit at, but they also have lower attendance, and therefore, lower sales. Making any kind of a living by doing only those small shows is difficult, if not actually impossible.

I have a lot of sympathy for this predicament. Like, I draw experimental webcomics about cats, and I'M too mainstream for lots of CAF shows. And I hate exhibiting Comic Cons, regardless of how well I do at them.

But blaming any of this on cosplayers is ridiculous. It's like blaming the cold weather on the fact that people are wearing scarves.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 9:02 AM on December 11, 2014 [16 favorites]


comic tej belHa' qo' laj comics. De' chu' 11 legh.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:05 AM on December 11, 2014 [5 favorites]


comic tej belHa' qo' laj comics. De' chu' 11 legh.

Geeky enough to know this is Klingon. Not geeky enough to be able to translate it without the aid of Bing Translate.

I don't fit in anywhere :(
posted by Talez at 9:07 AM on December 11, 2014 [16 favorites]


Wasn't there a The Cleveland Show episode about TV/movie properties ruining comic book conventions?

Yes, yes there was.

OK it was the B-plot but still
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:09 AM on December 11, 2014


Yeah, I hang around people who go to cons and put on cons and the anti-cosplay is almost unheard of. If anything con producers want people who have the money to make costumes to come to and spend even more money. This is probably just the Atlantic writing about it thinks is a thing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:10 AM on December 11, 2014


This is probably just the Atlantic writing about it thinks is a thing.

There have been at handful of ranty essays on the topic lately, which I suspect is what the Atlantic is reacting to. The Mary Sue did a partial roundup last week. I've seen these essays linked on my Facebook, and while most people I know aren't so extreme about it there's been some sympathetic nodding. *shrug*

However, this is just from comics artists who're exhibiting at the shows. I doubt most attendees think it's a Thing to be worried about. And the people putting on the con DEFINITELY have no problem with it. Cosplayers have become a huge draw for a lot of comic cons -- it's part of why people bother to go.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 9:15 AM on December 11, 2014




The people who are particularly angry right now are the people who're caught in the middle of these two shows -- they're too mainstream in one way or another to really fit in at the CAFs, but they're not established enough or not Doing The Thing enough to get any attention at Comic Cons.


It's starting to sound like the anger over cosplayers is a proxy war for the kind of excluded midlist problem that's affecting every kind of media these days (except maybe television, which I'm not even sure has a midlist).
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:19 AM on December 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


I'm not super plugged into the comic culture, but I have seen a lot of posting about this in the last week or so.

I don't get cos play on a personal level. I don't entirely understand why people want to draw attention to themselves, and I also don't get adults in halloween costumes, so its never really appealed to me (besides really well done non-standard takes on characters like gender bending or clever cross-overs). At the same time, I don't feel its my place to judge what other people value or pretend they shouldn't do that thing they like.

That said, if you can't see how cos play has a big effect on conventions and geek culture in general, you're blind or in denial.
posted by lownote at 9:21 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


I attended my first Comicon in Denver this summer, and this reaction breaks my heart. People were so damn happy to be walking around in costume, like kids at Halloween. Complete strangers had excellent conversation fodder with other cosplayers, and given that most of us were introverts standing in a line, icebreakers this fertile were a godsend. I want to a Mass Effect voice acting panel (because I am that type of nerd), and the actors asked the cosplayers about their costumes, posed for pictures with them, and basically enabled another level of fan conversation than "You are really great! Can you say 'I should go?'"

Cosplayers exist in many forms besides Slave Leia, although they're the easiest targets because boobies. Doctor Who-dressed parents had their kids in strollers dressed as Daleks, one extremely large Batman had a baby Bane with a pacifier mouth-cage, and a teenage Toph was shepherding preschool Aang, Katara, and Sokka. Some of these costume were the result of so much time, money and skill - I was amazed by a 10-foot Galactus (not Lord Business, as my sons had to inform me, because they are the result of a selective nerd breeding program). Cosplay let people feel proud and comfortable, it gave them a chance to show off their skills and their imagination, and the joy that came from all of them, whether they were wearing a metal bikini or a steampunk burka, should never be diminished by a group of disgruntled assholes who can't understand how fun works.
posted by bibliowench at 9:21 AM on December 11, 2014 [22 favorites]


Slight derail: I was pleasantly surprised how whichever local news I saw covering ""the furries had to evacuate their hotel" story (the ABC affiliate I think) covered the story with any smug jokes. I mean, they had to explain what it was, which, when said in the unvaried tones of a news anchor is amusing to a particular type of person (me), but it wasn't mocking at all.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:22 AM on December 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


ECCC used to be a good mid level con, but has been getting bigger and bigger. Still seems friendlier and less impersonal than NYCC.

RCCC in Portland, which I attended this year, was really good and probably replaces ECCC at that level.
posted by Artw at 9:27 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


(I may have agreed to go to SDCC in 2015 to say I've braved that hell at least one time, but that plan is now looking less solid.)
posted by Artw at 9:29 AM on December 11, 2014


You support cosplayers, and eventually you end up with Kevin Smith dressed as Tarot, Witch of the Black Rose.

And at that point NOBODY wins.
posted by delfin at 9:35 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Large, hairy men in labia-armor are a small price to pay. And my (limited) experience with viewing cosplay is that a) the sexy costumes are much less representative of the overall costumes and b) even people who you would not think would look good in strategically-placed lycra look amazing if they're happy and confident enough. I wish I felt as confident, and therefore looked as amazing, in a form-fitting t-shirt as some of these larger cosplayers looked in their garb.
posted by bibliowench at 9:43 AM on December 11, 2014 [7 favorites]


"Terrorist attack" isn't an exaggeration. The attacker used chlorine gas. 19 furries were hospitalized.

Gender normative terrorism is a thing that exists. We need to be taking it seriously.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:44 AM on December 11, 2014 [6 favorites]


These guys should really stop cosplaying as the courtiers of King Canute.
posted by jscalzi at 9:44 AM on December 11, 2014 [7 favorites]


Is it at all widespread to charge for having your picture taken?

There was a group at the London Worldcon collecting for charity
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:00 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


The anti-cosplayer attitude is totally foreign to me. Interestingly, I think this is because most of the cons I've been to have been Dragon*Con in Atlanta, which on the one hand is a HUGE con—it has something like 50,000+ people in attendance over 4 days—but on the other hand it hasn't been taken over by the media giants like SDCC. Geek news is not made at Dragon Con; geeky things don't get announced or premiered at Dragon Con, because no one important gives a crap about Atlanta.

So because of / in spite of that, cosplay is overwhelmingly popular at Dragon Con. The cosplay has become a tourist attraction; "civilians" will buy tickets just to go see cosplayers' outfits, or they'll hang around outside to watch cosplayers walk between hotels. In addition to the multiple costume contests in different categories, one of the most popular events is the Saturday morning costume parade. Cosplayers and decorated floats march the streets of downtown Atlanta while waving to the crowd, like Mardi Gras with Stormtroopers.

Maybe "no one gives a crap about Dragon Con" because it gives cranky cosplay-haters itchy hives.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:00 AM on December 11, 2014 [5 favorites]


Is it at all widespread to charge for having your picture taken?

Can people legally demand this? I thought that if you were in a public place, you gave up the right not to be videotaped/photographed for non-commercial purposes.
posted by bibliowench at 10:06 AM on December 11, 2014


Generally, but you also don't have to stop and/or pose for photographers if you don't want to.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:08 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


That's actually become a bit of a big deal - the random photo taking, that is, not the charging. If you go to ECCC you'll see plenty of "Costumes are not Consent" signs.
posted by Artw at 10:09 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah, but that refers to sexual harassment, not pictures of passing cosplayers (although I realize the two can intersect), no?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:11 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


(which is largely a harrassment thing, but creepy photos without consent ARE harassment)
posted by Artw at 10:12 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think we just met in the middle there.
posted by Artw at 10:12 AM on December 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


"Costumes are not Consent" also refers to inappropriate touching and comments, not just photos without permission.

I've gone to cons with a press pass just to take photos. I made sure to talk to and get permission from every single cosplayer I shot, with the exception of the Vulture pouring sugar in his coffee at the cafe. That was too good to pass up.

Thinking back, I also asked every artist if I could shoot them while they were sketching. The only people I shot from afar were the celebs. Jamie Bamber is a remarkable handsome human being in person.
posted by thecjm at 10:15 AM on December 11, 2014


I love the Dork Tower strip from a few years ago about the 'fake geek girl' label and cosplayers.
posted by rmd1023 at 10:16 AM on December 11, 2014 [5 favorites]


Best to play it safe and ask - it's polite and you'll get a better shot.
posted by Artw at 10:19 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


From what I've heard selling at cons can be a bit of crap shoot that varies from con to con and even in different years at the same con depending on who is attending (which can vary depending on who are the guests / panels), but also things like the layout of the rooms, who else is selling etc and you should not necessarily expect to make a killing at every one of them. But it very much comes down to having something to sell that people actually want to buy now and whilst, may be not being in full market trader mode, have some sort of selling technique or at the very least be approachable. Blaming you failure on one factor like cosplayers is a bit sad.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:19 AM on December 11, 2014


The only cosplayers I've encountered who charge for photos are selling prints from professional photo shoots they've done at a table, and that's pretty rare. I don't think I've ever seen someone charge for just striking a pose in the middle of the con.
posted by tautological at 10:24 AM on December 11, 2014


So because of / in spite of that, cosplay is overwhelmingly popular at Dragon Con. The cosplay has become a tourist attraction; "civilians" will buy tickets just to go see cosplayers' outfits, or they'll hang around outside to watch cosplayers walk between hotels. In addition to the multiple costume contests in different categories, one of the most popular events is the Saturday morning costume parade. Cosplayers and decorated floats march the streets of downtown Atlanta while waving to the crowd, like Mardi Gras with Stormtroopers.

Yup. I always went to D*C because it fell under my interests but I had a lot of friends who didn't want to go to the panels but wanted to come have a drink with me at the bar surrounded by X-Men, anime characters, and etc. (It is always fun to play the guessing game for particularly obscure ones.) So they meet me afterhours there so they could enjoy the cool costumes. The media can have their SDCC promotion fest; I will take D*C hands down every time for an affordable, accessible, excellent con.
posted by Kitteh at 10:28 AM on December 11, 2014


In my experience conventions that are heavily into cosplay such as the anime cons, are thriving, while a lot of dedicated comic and SF coins are having trouble (I don't consider Sam Diego Comic Con to new a comic convention, fwiw). Of course that may be more symptom than cause and effect, but still there it is.

Really, in the form of masquerade, cosplay has been an integral part of conventions from the 1930's onward. And unfortunately there's always been that group of exclusionary haters as well (From one planning session: "I thought this was supposed to be a literary convention, not a...media...convention."). What distinguishes the latest round of attacks in coagulation over the last couple years is the thinly disguised misogyny.
posted by happyroach at 10:37 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


When I was younger and on IRC channels, I bought into the "HEY LOOK GUYS I AM A LEGIT GIRL" thing HARD. It made me dismissive of other women, it made me think of myself as a sex object, and it made me present myself in inappropriate ways. I have definitely bought into this line of thinking, and even propogated it -- "You totally want me around! I am a girl, and I'm slutty!" -- but it doesn't actually help women be accepted in these spaces and it can do internal as well as social harm.

I encountered this at comic shops, working behind the counter and as a hanger-on in the '90s. The kinds of shops I worked at (and spent my Saturdays hanging around) were staffed by artsy, lefty types, and stocked the kinds of books women were looking for (stuff like Gaiman, Clowes, Vasquez, Castle Waiting, Jill Thompson, indie anthologies, etc.) We also had women who were waaaaay into X-Men, Bat-Books and Star Trek comics, or Dark Horse ultra-violent stuff, and a few regulars who were ordering role playing games and supplements. It was all good. They ranged from lifestyle goths to jeans-and-geek-t-shirts nerds (my people!) to ordinary professional types. We would talk about their purchases and pull lists, and make recommendations and offer opinions to each other and generally enjoy being there.

But there would also be women who came in and declared how they weren't like other women, and snarled out misogynist tropes while looking through the racks. Bizarre shit about how other women can't park, can't "handle" a not-particularly-edgy superhero book, made salacious comments about scantily clad heroines on the covers, etc. It was as if to separate themselves from an imaginary standard of femininity that somehow precluded buying comic books, so they could talk shop with us.

At the time, I thought it was because they are or were regulars at the kind of shop which can be terrible to people who aren't poorly socialized single men between 18 and 50*, and felt the need to put up a smoke-screen.

Looking back, I believe those women may have internalized this awful perception of themselves as women to a certain extent, and felt they had to "work" to refute it rather than just, you know, buy a comic and enjoy it and talk about it.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:42 AM on December 11, 2014 [5 favorites]


Writer Mark Ellis then suggested that cosplayers had "narcissistic personality disorder"


Oh, that's rich.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:46 AM on December 11, 2014 [8 favorites]


But when you point out that it's the pot calling the kettle black they just accuse you of race carding them.
posted by Talez at 10:50 AM on December 11, 2014


I encountered this at comic shops, working behind the counter and as a hanger-on in the '90s.

If I remember correctly from previous comments, you're from Rhode Island -- if any of these shops were in/near Providence (or maybe Chepachet where one of my good friends lived) and the women to whom you refer turned 15 in 1999, hi, we might know each other!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:53 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Nope, in Newport (and it's still there, tho now owned by a lefty-artsy guy rather than a lefty-artsy woman) - I was the guy in the hawaiian shirt who was trying to grow a pony-tail, but it looked like the puff-ball on a poodle's ass. My other hangouts were in northern MA.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:01 AM on December 11, 2014


Hey, the two-day game of Cosplay Bingo I started at Phoenix ComicCon last year kept me and some friends mightily entertained during the slow hours at our booths.
posted by culfinglin at 11:17 AM on December 11, 2014


Until it's proven otherwise I'm going to assume the reply to Scalzi's stalker came from the man himself.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:19 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Nah, the writing under the note from the 'stalker' is mine. We were horsing around before the con opened.
posted by culfinglin at 11:30 AM on December 11, 2014


The only cosplayers I've encountered who charge for photos are selling prints from professional photo shoots they've done at a table, and that's pretty rare.

My impression was that Yaya Han and Jessica Negri are the only people who are making a full time living as professional/celebrity cosplayers (and fair play to them, they both work like crazy from what I can tell). Everyone else is semi-pro, supplementing with more pedestrian modeling, costuming/sewing work, etc. You have to sell a LOT of prints and do a LOT of paid appearances to make a living wage.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:38 AM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Every cosplayer I've met seems to do it out of a sense of fun and as an expression of playful creativity.
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on December 11, 2014 [3 favorites]


Every cosplayer I've met seems to do it out of a sense of fun and as an expression of playful creativity.

To be clear: I also think that's true of Han and Nigri. They've just been lucky enough to parlay it into a career as well.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:52 AM on December 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


Comic writer & artist Kate Leth (kate or die!) drew this comic in response, captioned "In response to The Comments Highlighted In This Article Article but definitely not just That One Guy And His Friends, more like That Whole Stupid Pervasive Attitude."
posted by neda at 11:56 AM on December 11, 2014 [4 favorites]


Doing anything to do with comics for purely financial motives seems like a fast route to unhappiness, TBH.
posted by Artw at 11:57 AM on December 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


I have sold a ton of comics to cosplayers and at cons the Dredd cosplayers have been the most enthusiastic to meet me


How can anyone look at this and not think it's awesome?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:05 PM on December 11, 2014 [11 favorites]


Wow, it turns out that Karl Urban's scowl is not a CGI special effect.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:27 PM on December 11, 2014 [6 favorites]


Also, he'll have some competition in a few years.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:29 PM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Karl Urban is great, and really enthusiastic about the whole cosplay crowd that has grown up around the Dredd movie. If against the odds. sequel happens I think his degree of fan involvement is going to have a lot to do with it.

Kid in the old school Judge uniform is awesome too.
posted by Artw at 12:39 PM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Every cosplayer I've met seems to do it out of a sense of fun and as an expression of playful creativity.

Well, yeah. Except for the cosplayers still working on their costumes at three in the morning before the cosplay contest. They seem to be doing it out of masochism, grim determination, and a desire to keep the other people they're sharing a room with awake.

I still love them.
posted by happyroach at 1:09 PM on December 11, 2014 [4 favorites]


There is no backlash. This is shitty clickbait.
posted by stavrogin at 1:16 PM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


I really think that people like Pat Broderick and Tony Harris are bitching either because they're losing money by going to cons, or that they miss being the focus of attention, or both. Harris is known mostly for Starman, with James Robinson, and Ex Machina, with Brian K. Vaughan; in both cases, the lion's share of the attention for the title went to the writer, who went on to other things. Pat Broderick used to do a lot of work for DC and Marvel, including Micronauts (which used to be a pretty big deal) and the revivals of Firestorm and Captain Atom, but seems not to have lasted more than a couple of years or so on any given title; I've read rumors that there were problems with his maintaining a monthly schedule, and John Byrne has said that he got assigned to Iron Fist (his first collaboration with Chris Claremont) because Broderick was let go due to lateness.

The comic book industry, especially the Big Two, is not particularly kind to older creators who don't move into management, and especially if someone gets a reputation for being difficult for any reason--lateness on assignments, decline in quality of work, old grudges, etc.--they can have a very difficult time finding work. But they may not want to openly burn that bridge, so they look around at whatever's different from the old days when they were popular, see someone who's spent an awful lot of time and effort on their appearance--and, apparently, little to none on meeting creators--and, especially if they're taking money that could otherwise be going toward buying a sketch, figure out that that's what the real problem is. The sad thing is that, in reaching for the most convenient whipping boy (or, as seems to usually be the case, whipping girl), they're obviously not getting who has really paid the bills all these years. (And potentially still could, if they hadn't burned that bridge.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:16 PM on December 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


Yeah, HJ, that's what so delusional about it. If every cosplayer vanished tomorrow, or cosplaying was banned at cons, it would not mean More Money for these dudes. People would not suddenly be lining up to buy their prints. So it's not just sexist and annoying, it's pathetically off-base.
posted by emjaybee at 4:53 PM on December 11, 2014 [4 favorites]


No, but it happens. In the few cases where I've seen people trying to charge for photos at cons, they didn't strike me as fans at all but more like stripper types with taut bodies and chain mail bikinis, whose rather cynical plan was to exploit the stereotypical fat, horny geeks they expected to find there.

Speak of the devil and they shall appear. Naberius, you are talking about 'booth babes,' professional models who have been contracted by their agencies to appear at conventions in costume to promote whatever franchise they'd been hired by. They are asking for money for photos because it is literally their job. Many of these women are hardcore geeks themselves, but some are just fulfilling the terms of a modeling gig and don't deserve to be harrassed or vilified for it. They're contentious among female/feminist comics creators as well-- when I was last lurking in that scene, the line was that their appearance made the cons into spaces where women were only welcome as paid/compliant sex objects. I remember watching Oh Joy Sex Toy's Erika Moen subverting this in a particularly cute way (that, points to Erika, didn't disrespect the models or endanger their jobs) at the 2004 SDCC, running around taking goofy group pictures of herself and various booth babes all picking their noses and mugging unsexily for the camera. IIRC the booth babe phenomenon peaked in the 90's and dropped off in the early 2000s-- in large part because cosplayers made them obsolete. The novelty of seeing comic characters in the flesh was no longer profitable when millions of fans were doing the same and better for free.

And that, ultimately, is what is so terrifying to all these male creators, and what fuels the kind of paranoid vagina dentata fantasies Naberius is talking about. These guys have spent decades outfitting their heroines from the stripperwear catalog (not joking or exaggerating), drawing up their personal sexual fantasies on page, and occasionally commissioning models to embody those fantasy women, as a job with parameters controlled by the modeling agency and the guys at the con.

It is absolutely no surprise that these guys are completely losing their shit when their fantasy girls show up, in real life, not restrained by a modeling agency's demand of professional conduct, not as characters on a page being literally controlled and shaped by the comic guys' scripts and pens. This is about the rage and hatred of men who are being forced to confront women who are not under their professional or existential control. They spent years drawing whatever superheroine's cleavage and ass and posing her and dreaming about her. Now she's showed up at their booth, in the flesh, and she might not want anything to do with them, and there is not a god damned thing they can do about it.

This absolutely batshit rage at the threat of sexual rejection was behind Tony Harris' 2012 cosplay meltdown, when he finally broke out with a sad, ugly personal truth about why he was so angry: "You are what I refer to as "CON-HOT." Well not by my estimation, but according to a lot of average Comic Book Fans who either RARELY speak to, or NEVER speak to girls. Some Virgins, ALL unconfident when it comes to girls, and the ONE thing they all have in common? They are being preyed on by YOU. [...] If ANY of these guys that you hang on tried to talk to you out of that Con? You wouldnt give them the fucking time of day. Shut up you damned liar, no you would not. Lying, Liar Face. Yer not comics. "

This is why the cosplay haters aren't raging against that little kid dressed as Dredd, have never given a shit about Wolverines or any of the various wonderful permutations of Deadpool, and don't care about the body/race/gender-diverse swarms of Homestucks. The backlash is against women dressing as characters these angry men wanted to have total sexual control over. That control, along with the general control of comics culture, is being taken away from them. Nerd culture has mainstreamed and these men are feeling marginalized and terrified. (And with good reason. Marvel is making bank, but I can't think of a comic by a white male that's reached the kind of international prestige of Alison Bechdel or Marjane Satrapi or Jaime Hernandez since Maus, which was, what, 20 years ago?)

FWIW, I have very rarely heard the particular kind of contempt for "fat, horny geeks" or "sad virgins" or the very stereotypical language describing male nerds coming from women. Usually, as with Naberius or Tony, it's coming from the men who fear this to be true of themselves or their friends-- it's a very specific kind of self-loathing that, not unusually, is being projected by these men onto the objects of their desire, who they then feel free to hate as much, or more, than they hate themselves.

Or, on preview: it's about ethics in cosplay journalism.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:05 PM on December 11, 2014 [20 favorites]


BEHOLD THE POWER COSPLIC!
posted by Artw at 7:50 PM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


As a trans lady and a comics nerd, I can feel for both sides of this issue way down deep in my bones. On the one hand, yay fun costumes and giggling and sharing and feeling pretty and picture taking and YAY! On the other hand, feeling like a hideous misfit your whole life and finding what feels like some kind of nerd sanctuary and then here come the pretty cheerleaders in their goddamn miniskirts to flounce around and giggle and wave their big, untouchable boobs around, and if you ever crab about it you get called names and sneered at for being a no-fun neckbeard misogynist shithead GO AWAY.

The guys in this fight aren't coming from a rational place. They are coming from a fucked-up, wounded place, and a lot of them don't think it through enough to figure out how fucked up they are because they are too busy being fucked up. When cosplayers and their defenders get off on their smug little put-downs of these guys, I don't think they really get what they're dealing with (or some of them DO get it but they're just being callous little shits). There is some actual mental illness going on, with a lot of these guys. Happy, pretty girls are getting dressed up and prancing through a mental ward, and they don't get why these miserable guys are giving them the stinkeye or saying weird shit or acting inappropriately.

I cannot express what a joy it was years ago when I started shucking off a lot of my angry loner male shit and embraced gender experimentation and glam rock costumes and nightclubs and fun. It was, to grasp at a very geeky analogy, a lot like the moment in a genre picture where the loser kid finds out they have these awesome super powers and it changes everything, releasing them from the awful, drab, tiny world they lived in. That fat guy in the Flash t-shirt never got his superpowers, or never realized he had them anyway. He is still living the drab life before the story really starts, and then here come these superheroines marching through, living their seemingly fabulous little lives. He envies the hell out of them, and if he expresses it in the blunt, limited terms he knows, they'll tell him he's a worthless piece of shit. (Insider tip: HE ALREADY KNOWS THAT.)

So, yeah. Yay cosplayers. Sorry, guys.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:50 PM on December 11, 2014 [7 favorites]


There is some actual mental illness going on, with a lot of these guys. Happy, pretty girls are getting dressed up and prancing through a mental ward...

Many women who cosplay also suffer from serious mental illnesses, and yet, somehow, astonishingly, they don't take to the internet en masse to form creepshot forums, or otherwise seem to think their damage gives them license to advocate sexual assault. Really didn't expect to see open rapist apologism in this thread. Wow.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:04 PM on December 11, 2014 [5 favorites]


He envies the hell out of them, and if he expresses it in the blunt, limited terms he knows, they'll tell him he's a worthless piece of shit. (Insider tip: HE ALREADY KNOWS THAT.)

Yeah, I'm coming to the same conclusion on Gamergate. There's an assumption that there's a win scenario in an us-vs-them game. There isn't. It's endless guerrilla warfare if the game is played that way, and the guerrillas often win... or at least deny you a lasting peace. Male hierarchy games, and male-female relationship games, and their inability to win at them conventionally, is what drove some of these guys into "fandom" to begin with. There's literally nowhere else for them to go, from their perspective, apart from over the edge into abyss. There are factions involved, and some of them are pure, dyed-in-the-wool evil, and they do like them some footsoldiers... and lo! A ready supply!

More thought needs to be given to bringing the neckbeards into the fold, how to address and defuse their insecurity and its attendant rage. It's a hard concept to contemplate, but it's a swifter, surer path to getting where you want to be. (And, no, I do not mean granting any kind of favors, here. That's just... no.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:12 PM on December 11, 2014


I guess you could start by not calling them neckbeards.

Just a thought.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:27 PM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Happy, pretty girls are getting dressed up and prancing through a mental ward, and they don't get why these miserable guys are giving them the stinkeye or saying weird shit or acting inappropriately.

I'm not feeling articulate enough to express this properly right now, but no, they're not. They're attending a public function to which they've paid the same attendance fee as the other people there. It's not a mental ward (and that's an offensive way to characterize it) and plenty of the women in question also have challenges due to being mentally ill or non-neurotypical, but somehow they generally manage to comport themselves in ways that aren't harassing or hostile or creepy. (Not always — this is not an invitation to drag the discussion into how not all women are perfect or not all men behave badly.)
posted by Lexica at 8:29 PM on December 11, 2014 [8 favorites]


I guess you could start by not calling them neckbeards.

No, because "nerd" and "geek" were co-opted by the mainstream and destigmatized to mean generally well-adjusted enthusiasts, that's how most of them self-identify now.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:36 PM on December 11, 2014


Really didn't expect to see open rapist apologism in this thread.

I am going to swallow my bile and say very politely that I find that remark quite offensive. You're lobbing an explosive device of your own creation into the discussion, and I am getting the hell away from that sucker.

They're attending a public function to which they've paid the same attendance fee as the other people there. (etc.)

I would ask you to read my post again, hopefully with the understanding that I was not speaking of these attitudes in flattering terms. If the cosplayers have their own mental issues (and BOY HOWDY, some of 'em do) those issues are either being sublimated or expressed in a way that involves a certain kind of showy extroversion. The mental illness of the bitter nerd guys is manifesting in exactly the opposite way, with a lot of surly, inward yuck. It's oil and water.

I knew I'd piss some people off, by writing honestly about this stuff. But I have been on both sides of this conflict, and I can sympathize with the people who just want to have fun and I can sympathize with the people who are damaged enough to resent these attractive people for coming around and having the kind of showy, colorful, glamorous fun that you've spent your whole life on the outside of. These guys sometimes disgust me, but I am also able to have some empathy for them. Empathy is the only way this shit will ever get better. You won't actually solve anything with smug finger-pointing, strawmen and insulting nicknames. (And that applies to both sides.)


Rape apology?? Of all the goddamned...


No, no. Swallowing that bile. Carry on.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:23 PM on December 11, 2014 [4 favorites]


Jesus Christ, that furry conference attack is fucking vile. I really hope whoever did it is found and held accountable.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:03 PM on December 11, 2014


I think the degree of generalization occuring here makes this a very difficult conversation. One size does not fit all.

Cosplayers do not all fit one mold: some are playing, happy and carefree, some are paid professionals looking for a buck, some many have mental issues.

Likewise, people can be annoyed by cosplay for many reasons: maybe they think the showiness of it sicks the air out in the room away from more subtle activities, maybe they're misogynist creeps. There can be overlaps with creepshots or with feminists.

Lumping them all into one framing of "female cosplayers vs male neckbeards" distorts the picture in a way guaranteed to depict some of the people involved wrongly.

You can snark at the notion as "#notallmen" but it's easy to use that tag as "#I-will-disregard-any-exceptions-that-don't-support-my-position"
posted by tyllwin at 10:08 PM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I was generalizing. I was trying to talk about the clash of two large subcultures, and doing that involves some generalizing. I don't think every cosplayer is a happy pixie and I don't think every comic book nerd-boy is a bitter misogynist. There are plenty of bitter cosplayers and jolly comics nerds. But if we are looking at these two subcultures, I think happy pixie vs. bitter misogynist is a fair shorthand for the ongoing conflict.

I feel like I should make it clear that there has been some inexcusable, evil behavior from these guys, and I'm not denying that. I have been viciously harassed online myself. It's never crossed into actual death threats but there's been some psycho, scary stalker shit in the name of LULZ at my expense. I know from bitter experience that comic book nerd guys can be the worst, unfortunately including some of my favorite creators. Some of these guys really earn the hate.

I get so tired of that kind of fanboy, I despair over them. But I don't feel like the answer is to go for the smug NOTALLMENS meme shit that I see all too often. That stuff is not as bad as what the boys are doing, but it's still bad. Look at this popular comic strip, and tell me that the melodramatic little pictures and the woman's response aren't callous as hell. The guy is confessing to come deep, deep, life-destroying damage, and we're supposed to LOL and move on.

Obviously, I've been corking up this rant for a long time. I AM ON THE SIDE OF THE COSPLAYERS IN THIS. But I come to this fight as one who was born on the other side of that border, and I can tell you that it's a terrible place in its own right, beset by pointless and unending civil war.

If we're supposed to be good, kind, considerate lefties (and this is Metafilter,) aren't we supposed to try and find the common ground? As current or lapsed Trekkies (again, Metafilter,) can't we learn something from the idea that no matter how goddamn gross and scary and inhuman the alien forces seem to be, eventually we can make friends with the Klingons or the Ferengi or even the goddamned Borg if we sit down with them like grown-ups and hash this shit out? Yes, at first they will huff and puff and wave their pain-sticks around, but if we can get past that shit maybe we can have a hell of a Federation.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:39 PM on December 11, 2014 [9 favorites]


Thanks for that perspective, UH. I kind of feel the same way about a lot of the roots of male nerd misogyny and it's very tough to figure out a way to talk about those roots without also seeming like you are excusing it. I think you handled it well.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:41 PM on December 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Thank you, Drinky Die! This is stuff I've been stirring over in my head for a long time, knowing that if I posted any of it I would probably get some furious, knee-jerk reactions. I wasn't trying to troll or upset anybody, but I do see a lot of grays where some people seem very, very determined to believe it's purely black and white. Calling for both sides to try and have some more compassion is NOT the same as excusing some of the genuinely awful things that have been done. Attempting to examine where some of these fucked up ideas may come from is NOT the same as condoning those ideas.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:36 AM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]


No, because "nerd" and "geek" were co-opted by the mainstream and destigmatized to mean generally well-adjusted enthusiasts, that's how most of them self-identify now.

This. I'm not big into comics, but I was a fucking massive geek growing up (and still am!) and it's fucking weird to see that appelation turned into a celebration of socially competent, well-adjusted extroverts. Suddenly 'geek' - the outsider label that those of us who didn't want attention and would rather bury our nose in a book or do some maths - encompasses the outgoing, successful, arts-and-crafts kids (now adults) whose groups it was that 'geek' was an outsider group to? Shit, suddenly I'm an incompetent outsider even in the context of this group that was once all incompetent outsiders. What social spaces does it leave for me? I know for sure I wouldn't fit in at Nine Worlds, for example, or any of the other 'geek' conventions going in the UK.

That this often gets mixed up with weird gender shit isn't helpful. There are a lot of awful misogynists on this bandwagon, and that makes it really fucking difficult to have a useful conversation about this.



Why would you be afraid of women taking an interest in what you like? They have vaginas, guys. Real ones.

Transphobia is everywhere!
posted by Dysk at 5:47 AM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]


There's literally nowhere else for them to go, from their perspective, apart from over the edge into abyss.

I know what you are saying, but, after growing up in a society where I was constantly being told that every dude's problems with self-hatred meant that every woman should shrink herself small not to make him feel bad or threaten him, I got no sympathy.

Get therapy, dudes. Your minds are sick, your speech is hateful, and if your lives are unhappy, it's on you, not some 14-year-old in a Batgirl costume who is just trying to have a good time without being hated on by icky old creepers.
posted by emjaybee at 11:00 AM on December 12, 2014 [7 favorites]


I'm really glad that I finally realized the Ellis referenced was MARK Ellis, not Warren Ellis. Only took me most of the thread.

I'm a big old nerd, big in most senses of the word. Comics is part of my nerdery, I've been reading since high school, though I was certainly into superheroes before that but mostly through the cartoons. I read comics regular even now. I'm also big into boardgames, speculative fiction, and a number of other "classic" nerd pursuits. I large, beardy, not overly attractive, and fit a number of other classical nerd stereotypes physically and personality-wise. I'm not much of a con-goer, other than being a backstage guest at Worldcon one year and accidentally running into Neil Gaiman in a tux in a elevator, because loud noises and large groups of people aren't really my bag.

I establish my nerd bona fides because I want to say that I understand where this "fake geek girl" nonsense comes from. I understand where the misogyny and homophobia of this anti-cosplay comes from. I'll stop right here and say that I completely disagree with it, and I'm 100% on the side of the cosplayers. This is hateful, hateful stuff rooted in a culture of straight white male privilege, it's the mushroom that grows in the dark subculture.

That's the thing. For a lot of people, a specific or general nerd subculture was the escape from bullying. It was a place you made your own, where you could come together with people that were like-minded (and may have been bullied themselves). It's your safe space, your Sanctum Sanctorum. And then capitalism gets wind of how much money is jangling around, the internet starts to take the sting out of words like "nerd" and "geek" when a basic understanding of how to operate a computer because a basic skill for many, and generations reared on John Hughes movies start to identify with the nerds and outcast and think the bullies and jocks are jerks. You can be a knitting nerd now, you can care really deeply about car speakers, you can dress up like a goddamned warrior and hit friends in the woods with foam swords.

But you still feel like an outcast. Maybe all these people becoming interested in your thing hasn't helped. It doesn't like you more. Maybe you're not getting the amount of sex you think you deserve. Maybe all those people (and by this you probably mean women) who look like the people that were dicks to you back in the day are wearing that Captain America shirt and talking about what a geek they are. They're invading your space, the cultural space that you carved out, or occupied out of necessity. It feels like your identity is being taken from you and twisted and stolen.

But it's not. It really isn't. People are fans in different ways, they can like different things. They can be a comic fan because they really dig Saga and don't know a lot about the Dark Phoenix Saga (I never found Claremont's purple writing to my taste). A person is no less a fan because they are pretty. A person is no less a fan because maybe they didn't suffer in the way you did. Do you like the thing because you suffered? Had you been popular, would you have not read comics, or what have you? I mean, you don't even know what they went through, or why. And it doesn't matter.

Because they like the thing now. Be enthusiastic, recommend things to them if they're new to the game. If they're dressed up like some webcomic or anime character you've never heard of, ask them about it. Maybe you'll find something you like.

It's hard, I know. Like I said, I understand. There are days where I think, there but for the grace of a god I don't even believe in goes I. I grew up as a fat, bullied nerd, and I was filled with a lot of anger. Still am sometimes. I've had those thoughts, "She's not a real nerd" or "She's only doing it for the attention". But stamp down on that, because it doesn't matter. That's the Dark Side (or Darkseid) talking, that's the Anti-Life Equation.

Because you don't want to spread the misery around. Excluding others the way you were excluded, that's not the path to happiness. That's not how you grow as a person and make friends. It makes you smaller and meaner. I've been there, and it's not good. Why doesn't Batman kill? Because that would make him just as bad as the criminals he fights. No one should be made to feel the way you were made to feel. Don't continue the cycle.

But that's on you. You have to be the one to make the change, because you're the one spewing out hate and vitriol and acting as a gatekeeper. You're the baddie Hans. And so you have to be the one to rise above. I often feel like the ongoing and eternal project of my life is one of expanding my empathy for others by expanding my understanding of the world. I'm an enthusiast, and I love to know about things. A few years back, I was probably cracking jokes about furries. But I know some furries now, they are good friends. They're people. It's hard, it's not always easy, though I had it relatively easy. The anger is still there sometimes, it's a beast that lurks in the heart.

We all exist in a sick culture, one steeped in racism, misogyny, homophobia, and so much more awful stuff. You gotta do your part to fight against that stuff, you have to fight against your own worst impulses, the ones that are a result and an artifact of being raised in that sick culture. Start by recognizing it. Make comics culture, or whatever nerd culture you're a part of, a better culture than the one at large. It was once a place that took you and sheltered you. People still need that. Make it better, make yourself better. Be a superhero.
posted by X-Himy at 11:20 AM on December 12, 2014 [4 favorites]


That is very inspiring, but I can't help thinking that unattractive dudes are just going to get shoved aside no matter how welcoming they are. That's just humanity, I guess.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:43 AM on December 12, 2014


Do you like the thing because you suffered? Had you been popular, would you have not read comics, or what have you? I mean, you don't even know what they went through, or why. And it doesn't matter.

I guess this is the thing: for me, being a geek has close to fuck-all to do with what you like. The conflation of fandom and 'geek' is something that bothers me. It's not about what you like, it's about the sort of person you are. Even as a queer woman, I look at the program and crowd shots of geek conventions, and I see little to nothing that speaks to me. I look at the program and crowd shots of, say, defcon, and I see my people. Now I'm not a hacker, I don't code, I'm not really into infosec or anything like that, and I wince at every little homophobic or sexist joke, and despair at the lack of representation of women, people of colour, any overt queerness, but I see my people. People for whom there is little difference between talking shop and socialising, not people who want to dress up and dance.

Maybe it's a UK thing, but here, 'geek' has been mainstreamed to the point that the learning about how shit works, understanding systems and mechanisms, that side of things is entirely crowded out by the fanfic, the DJ sets, the nerdcore bands, the discos, etc, etc. Where's left? Hell if I'm throwing in with the misogynist, reactionary 'neckbeards' described above (again, queer woman) so all I see is an identity in which I used to have a home of sorts being entirely redefined to exclude me. I don't even know how to describe myself any more, never mind where to go to find like-minded people, or anything that caters to my way of engaging with things (understand the everything!) which is far more important to me than my 'interests'. (Presented in the right way, with the right approach, anything is interesting.)

Hell yes I'm bitter.
posted by Dysk at 11:55 AM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm a guy who would not be considered conventionally attractive. It's no easier for women or anyone else not considered conventionally attractive. I've been in nice fulfilling relationships, and this first hurtle I have to get over is the trouble I have in believing that anyone would find me attractive enough to date in the first place. Because if I continue in this vein of thinking, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is a society that can be cruel and hurtful. The world can be like that, and there is no simple solution. I'm trying harder and harder these days to not be a part of that. It's hard for me sometimes, there are days where all you want to do is find a banker or a Republican and scream curses at them until their eyes bleed. I'm sickened by a lot of cruelty going on right now and a lot of times my natural response is anger. My first, second, and third response. But I've spent a lot of years trying not to be so angry, but it brought me and others around me nothing but misery. I'm imperfect, I fail in that sometimes.

And that's a lot of feel-good platitude BS. But I gotta believe if there's hope for me, there's hope for other people too. At least for me, it's about trying to get over that internalized conception of loser and outcast, of unlovable nerd that makes you instinctively lash out against others when they encroach on "yours". It's not a panacea, people are still going to be dicks, they're still going to be hurtful or dismissive. But I'm trying harder to opt out of that.
posted by X-Himy at 12:16 PM on December 12, 2014


Dysk, so how do you define yourself? By the way you engage with the world, and wanting to know everything? I feel that way too, and using what you like isn't always the best way to find your sort of people. But I've found that it can be shorthand sometimes.

A bit over seven years ago, I accidentally started a boardgame group. I wasn't even that into boardgames at the time, I was just tired of being lonely and feeling friendless. Like I said, accidentally, and I love boardgames (as my packed-full games closet will attest). It through this group that I found a lot of my people. Boardgames is a shibboleth of a sort. It attracts people interested in rules (and rules lawyering), who like systems, who can focus on details. My wonderful friend group of pedants and weirdos and intense fans, it's built brick by brick. We do a lot more these days than just play boardgames together, but we do that too, every week (and often more than that). It's a thing to talk about, a point of common interest.

I don't really consider myself a part of the comics fandom, though I am a fan. I don't participate in the wider conversation, or go to cons, or even know a lot of other people that read comics. But I can drunkenly expound and explain the cosmology of the entire Marvel universe.

And I do feel like I can meet a comic fan and talk about comics, it's a starting point and a way to feel out who that person is. When we talk about the things we like to others, we're explaining about why they appeal to us. Why do I like playing Magic the Gathering, a fandom that has had its recent share of problems of this sort, and a continuing issue with misoginy? I like the game because I find it fun and mentally interesting. The different kinds of ways you can play present a puzzle, and the actual play represents a competition. It's like a sport, but I was never good at sports (though I was varsity badminton). I don't necessarily define myself by the things I like, but the things I like can help explain who I am as a person. And it might also explain other people that play Magic. I might not end up agreeing with or liking every Magic player. Outside of the context of the game I might find their politics repulsive, their conversation boorish. But over a Friday Night Magic, we can both play the game we like, be kind to each other, and connect on some level. It's better than the alternative for me.
posted by X-Himy at 12:31 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]


I AM ON THE SIDE OF THE COSPLAYERS IN THIS.

Oh, I just get so lost looking at the trees that I ignore the forest. I should be clear that I'm on the cosplayers' side too.

The attitude that Broderick and Ellis seem to have is just totally foreign to me: cosplay has really just been such a fundamental part of fan activity since, well, forever, that I can't imagine what they want a con to be like.

I mean don't love the idea of people charging $20 for a picture, but it's rare, and I don't love the idea of people charging $20 for an autograph either.
posted by tyllwin at 4:05 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]


About who exactly is demonizing 'neckbeards'-- Tony Harris is happily married, with several lovely children. Back in the day, he was one of the tattooed, bodybuilding, arrogant martial art guy comic artists clade. He was never one of the shy, sexually timid, lonely or virginal "neckbeards"-- but he has no trouble speaking contemptuously about them, and then projecting that contempt onto female cosplayers.

Ursula, it sounds like this hit a raw place for you. It did for me too; I am literally typing this from the locker room of my club, where the rage you described about "big, untouchable boobs" frequently leads to actual or thwarted sexual assault. There are quite a few ex-cheerleaders here; I'm pretty fucking protective of them, because, unsurprisingly, they are frequently used as blank screens or literal punching bags for men's sexual or anger issues because of exactly the kind of spiteful 'pretty girls flouncing around in miniskirts when the rest of us are so miserable' attitudes you detailed in your post. Dehumanizing these women as shiny happy people, as "callous little shits" who are rubbing their percieved happiness in everyone else's faces and who could never have real problems or experience pain, is a destructive attitude in high school, and in the adult world it becomes dangerous.

I understand that most of these men are miserable. I understand that a great many of them are dealing with undiagnosed or untreated or insufficiently treated mental illness. When people make snide comments about basement-dwellers in GamerGate do they really not get that they're talking about adults who are unemployed and living with their extended family because they're too mentally ill to function in society? Of course I have empathy and sympathy for these men. But I draw the line when they demand that women pay the price for their pain.

And yes, I'm sorry, but drumming up sympathy for men who are filled with rage because they are not allowed to touch whoever's breasts they want to is absolutely, 100% rape culture apologism.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 4:10 PM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]


after growing up in a society where I was constantly being told that every dude's problems with self-hatred meant that every woman should shrink herself small not to make him feel bad or threaten him, I got no sympathy.

And what society would that be?

Dehumanizing these women as shiny happy people, as "callous little shits" who are rubbing their percieved happiness in everyone else's faces

Don't have time to really wade into this, except to say that the "callous little shits" referred specifially to people who indulge in the meme-y MANSPLAIN PARK-style putdown nickname BS I described above. And I think I made it very clear that we were talking about PERCEIVED happiness, their SEEMINGLY happy little lives. That this was how the bitter guys saw them.

I was exhausted before I started reading this stuff, and I am once again left with the feeling that life is too short to spend backing up over and over again explaining that I did not in fact mean THAT when I wrote something about something somebody else wrote about gender stuff. I stick one foot in and it's like a damn bog, it's hell to get out. So, I'm out, again.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:32 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]


I posted that comment when I was in a hurry and a bad mood. I don't expect to get out of either anytime soon, but if I had more time I'd write something better. I am walking away from this and I won't be checking this thread again, but I do have to say that the suggestion that I am in any way a rape apologist is awful and I resent the hell out it. And that's all I'm saying.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:28 PM on December 12, 2014


People for whom there is little difference between talking shop and socialising, not people who want to dress up and dance.

Oh I'm reminded of the scornful looks I received when I wore Hammer pants to the 1989 Atlanta Fantasy Fair. What a faux pas. Never do that again.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:39 PM on December 12, 2014


I posted that, and then hours later realized I was going against my own point about sitting down for reasonable debate even when the other side seems really unreasonable to you. Then I realized this thread had probably run its course anyhow.

Talking about gender is not a bog. It's a minefield. And we're all the victims, and we're all the bombs.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:50 AM on December 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


Ursula, if you're still reading, I owe you an apology. I was also not in a great place when I made those posts, and directing anger at the entire situation at you, who were just speaking about it, wasn't ok. I think we've probably both been reloading this thread in intense emotion (I have at least) and if you're still checking, I'm sorry I hurt you.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:55 PM on December 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


I actually has stopped reading the thread, but a nice person took the time to message me about your response. Let's just put the whole ugly business behind us. I just don't seem to do these sorts of discussions well. It usually ends up in a big kerfuffle.

Anyway, I hope things are going better now.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:10 AM on December 14, 2014 [2 favorites]


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