Sex workers and the city
January 6, 2015 2:10 AM Subscribe
Despite the claims of reformers like Judge Lippman, [Human Trafficking Intervention Courts] are as controlling as any other court. Prostitutes might be called victims, but they're still arrested, still handcuffed, and still held in cages. The only difference is that they're now in a system that doesn't distinguish between workers and trafficked people. To the courts, anyone who's been arrested for sex work is raw material, incapable of making his or her own choices. Those like Love, who did sex work out of financial necessity, before leaving of her own volition, might as well not exist.Molly Crabapple: Special Prostitution Courts and the Myth of 'Rescuing' Sex Workers.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely
posted by oceanjesse at 5:06 AM on January 6, 2015
posted by oceanjesse at 5:06 AM on January 6, 2015
They have created a false dichotomy: weeping victims and the rare "Happy Hookers" who pair their white privilege with Louboutins.
Good piece, wish it was ten times longer.
The bit about quotas is a particular misery - sex workers have to be accessible to clients or rely on a third party to refer clients who can then exploit them. They're easy to arrest, especially if the definition of sex worker is Woman Outside The Kitchen.
I am a little surprised there isn't a national sex workers union/association in the US - is there and it's just rarely covered in the media?
posted by viggorlijah at 5:30 AM on January 6, 2015
Good piece, wish it was ten times longer.
The bit about quotas is a particular misery - sex workers have to be accessible to clients or rely on a third party to refer clients who can then exploit them. They're easy to arrest, especially if the definition of sex worker is Woman Outside The Kitchen.
I am a little surprised there isn't a national sex workers union/association in the US - is there and it's just rarely covered in the media?
posted by viggorlijah at 5:30 AM on January 6, 2015
The 2012 study looked at "bad encounters" with "institutions" (cops, health care workers, pimps). Given that focus, we'd expect cops to be a higher portion of the total, and that was a point made in the study. In italics, they explained that healthcare workers made up half of the total.
Bad encounters with cops are doubtlessly a problem, but Vice misrepresented the study (assuming I'm looking at the same 2012 study by that org looking at bad encounters with cops and others)
posted by jpe at 5:41 AM on January 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Bad encounters with cops are doubtlessly a problem, but Vice misrepresented the study (assuming I'm looking at the same 2012 study by that org looking at bad encounters with cops and others)
posted by jpe at 5:41 AM on January 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
From the Vice comments section:
posted by HeroZero at 5:41 AM on January 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I found it a great piece, let down by contrasting the substantial arguments with certain discredited anti-trafficking arguments or statistics...there are stronger, more convincing anti-trafficking arguments.I've always heard that most of the pearl-clutchy arguments about sex-work-always-equalling-human-trafficking-because-to-conceive-that-women-would-opt-to-do-this-is-too-awful-to-imagine are false, but are there "more convincing" arguments as the commenter implies? What are they? Notably, the commenter does not cite any of the stronger arguments he alludes to.
posted by HeroZero at 5:41 AM on January 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
but are there "more convincing" arguments as the commenter implies? What are they?
Prostitution was legalized in Germany in 2002.
Der Spiegel, May 30, 2013: "How Legalizing Prostitution Has Failed".
From the article, part 2:
"Has Germany's prostitution law improved the situation of women like Sina? Five years after it was introduced, the Family Ministry evaluated what the new legislation had achieved. The report states that the objectives were "only partially achieved," and that deregulation had "not brought about any measurable actual improvement in the social coverage of prostitutes." Neither working conditions nor the ability to exit the profession had improved. Finally, there was "no solid proof to date" that the law had reduced crime."
From part 3:
"But what if the German prostitution law actually helps human traffickers? Has the law in fact fostered prostitution and, along with it, human trafficking?
Axel Dreher, a professor of international and development politics at the University of Heidelberg, has attempted to answer these questions, using data from 150 countries. The numbers were imprecise, as are all statistics relating to trafficking and prostitution, but he was able to identify a trend: Where prostitution is legal, there is more human trafficking than elsewhere. (...)
Sometimes girls are sent by their own families, like Cora from Moldova. (...) Cora lives in a hostel run by a Romanian assistance center for victims of human traffickers. When girls in Moldova are 15 or 16, says Cora's psychologist, their brothers and fathers often say to them: "Whore, go out and make some money." Cora's brothers took their attractive and well-behaved sister to a disco in the nearest city. Her only duty there was to serve drinks, but she met a man there with contacts in Romania. "He said that I could make a lot more money in the discos there." Cora went with him, first to Romania and then to Germany. After being raped for an entire day in Nuremberg, she says, she knew what she had to do. She worked in a brothel on Frauentormauer, one of Germany's oldest red-light districts. She received the men in her room, allegedly for up to 18 hours a day."
posted by iviken at 5:48 AM on January 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Prostitution was legalized in Germany in 2002.
Der Spiegel, May 30, 2013: "How Legalizing Prostitution Has Failed".
From the article, part 2:
"Has Germany's prostitution law improved the situation of women like Sina? Five years after it was introduced, the Family Ministry evaluated what the new legislation had achieved. The report states that the objectives were "only partially achieved," and that deregulation had "not brought about any measurable actual improvement in the social coverage of prostitutes." Neither working conditions nor the ability to exit the profession had improved. Finally, there was "no solid proof to date" that the law had reduced crime."
From part 3:
"But what if the German prostitution law actually helps human traffickers? Has the law in fact fostered prostitution and, along with it, human trafficking?
Axel Dreher, a professor of international and development politics at the University of Heidelberg, has attempted to answer these questions, using data from 150 countries. The numbers were imprecise, as are all statistics relating to trafficking and prostitution, but he was able to identify a trend: Where prostitution is legal, there is more human trafficking than elsewhere. (...)
Sometimes girls are sent by their own families, like Cora from Moldova. (...) Cora lives in a hostel run by a Romanian assistance center for victims of human traffickers. When girls in Moldova are 15 or 16, says Cora's psychologist, their brothers and fathers often say to them: "Whore, go out and make some money." Cora's brothers took their attractive and well-behaved sister to a disco in the nearest city. Her only duty there was to serve drinks, but she met a man there with contacts in Romania. "He said that I could make a lot more money in the discos there." Cora went with him, first to Romania and then to Germany. After being raped for an entire day in Nuremberg, she says, she knew what she had to do. She worked in a brothel on Frauentormauer, one of Germany's oldest red-light districts. She received the men in her room, allegedly for up to 18 hours a day."
posted by iviken at 5:48 AM on January 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Human trafficking is... a form of modern-day slavery that we simply cannot tolerate in a civilized society,"
So of course it makes sense to arrest the "slaves."
posted by rtha at 5:50 AM on January 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
So of course it makes sense to arrest the "slaves."
posted by rtha at 5:50 AM on January 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Another point of view from the New York Times, which looked at the Queens Human Trafficking Intervention Court, the pilot program for the other HTICs and where the majority of the defendants are Asian immigrants:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/23/nyregion/in-a-queens-court-women-arrested-for-prostitution-are-seen-as-victims.html?_r=0
posted by snappysnapper at 5:53 AM on January 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/23/nyregion/in-a-queens-court-women-arrested-for-prostitution-are-seen-as-victims.html?_r=0
posted by snappysnapper at 5:53 AM on January 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
An old but very relevant Guardian article:
It doesn't help that a lot of people, like the judge in that Vice article, simply can't believe that anyone could willingly be involved in sex work. I've been called a rape apologist and worse for suggesting that some sex workers aren't trafficked/enslaved, and that the only reason a man could be pro-sex worker's rights is because he personally wants a ready supply of inexpensive, suitably cowed sex slaves. Mostly by liberal, self-described feminists. It can be a difficult thing to talk about.
posted by metaBugs at 6:00 AM on January 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Soho police raids show why sex workers live in fear of being 'rescued'There are certainly problems to be solved about coercion and mistreatment in sex work, and some of those will be quite difficult (for example, people coerced into sex work may be scared enough to deny that they've been coerced). But it's impossible to look at how sex work is actually policed in some areas and conclude that anyone involved actually gives a shit about the people they're claiming to protect.
Sex workers in London's Soho had their doors kicked in by riot police last week. The cops brought along journalists to photograph cowering women who were desperately trying to cover their faces. These images were then splashed across the press. Working flats have been closed, throwing women out on to the street. Some, who were migrant workers, were taken away by the police for compulsory "counselling", detention at Heathrow, and enforced removal from the UK, despite protesting that they were not trafficked victims: they are migrant sex workers – indeed, several of the women currently incarcerated at Heathrow are active within the English Collective of Prostitutes, a sex-worker rights organisation that, along with the Sex Worker Open University, is protesting against the raids. (...)
It doesn't help that a lot of people, like the judge in that Vice article, simply can't believe that anyone could willingly be involved in sex work. I've been called a rape apologist and worse for suggesting that some sex workers aren't trafficked/enslaved, and that the only reason a man could be pro-sex worker's rights is because he personally wants a ready supply of inexpensive, suitably cowed sex slaves. Mostly by liberal, self-described feminists. It can be a difficult thing to talk about.
posted by metaBugs at 6:00 AM on January 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
What would otherwise be called rape at gunpoint is, because the victims are sex workers, given the euphemism "sexual favors."
I'll admit that I had never thought of the implications of that euphemism (which I see in reporting all the time). That alone made the article worth it for me.
To Lee and Kluger, the willing sex worker is either fictional or self-deluding. They prefer the term "prostituted woman."
In case more proof was needed that words matter and that removing people's agency is gross.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:10 AM on January 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'll admit that I had never thought of the implications of that euphemism (which I see in reporting all the time). That alone made the article worth it for me.
To Lee and Kluger, the willing sex worker is either fictional or self-deluding. They prefer the term "prostituted woman."
In case more proof was needed that words matter and that removing people's agency is gross.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:10 AM on January 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
people only seem to get really upset at human trafficking when it's women selling sex. it's weird how you rarely see concerted efforts trying to save dishwashers and farmhands.
posted by nadawi at 6:40 AM on January 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 6:40 AM on January 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
Prostitution is legal in most (all?) of Australia; there's a very large and well-known brothel near where I live. I still see reports about the prosection of brothel owners for employing underage prostitutes or undocumented migrants, but they're not especially common. I understand that street prostitution is less common than it used to be, but I haven't seen any figures on that. I'm not aware of any social problems caused by legalisation, and I suspect that many - like the corruption of police - have been significantly reduced.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:42 AM on January 6, 2015
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:42 AM on January 6, 2015
UGH. Short sighted bullshit policies! If you want to save women PROVIDE HOUSING and flexible work option that pay as well and offer the same scheduling, disability/differences of ability accommodations as sex work.
And don't just provide housing in some dangerous neighborhood where they will be assaulted or their children will be unsafe.
My cousin has been "saved" from sex work so many times. And how is it to have a forced gynecological exam in prison where they snip of your clit piercing-- how dehumanizing and controlling of women's bodies is that?
THAT is saving? WHAT THE FUCK.
I am not convinced that full legalization fixes the issues here (however I don't have a set opinion either way, I am in favor of what works best to protect the vulnerable)- what I do think is if we want to give women options outside of sex work- you need to know why they feel safer in sex work than anywhere else and provide options that are ACTUALLY better. It involves talking to, interviewing, dispersing surveys and actually understanding what kinds of services or supports and what the terms would be that would appeal to women who might like to exit sex work if there was an actual option that felt better.
Also, our culture LOVES victimized damaged women, it lusts over them, it wants the dirt on them- and this is deep in the psyche of the people who will be working any systemix situation designed to "help"
I know for me, there were periods in my life that I hated the lying of people like this so much, it seemed at least a lot more honest to be in the company of men were at least honest that their intentions are exploitative and harmful. If you look at the rates of people with secret fantasies about submission and exploitation on either end of it-- it's way over half of humans that are willing to admit they are into this idea (not to mention how scary are the people who won't even admit it so have even less hope of working with or controlling it?)
I can even see in my own family, my cousin, any time she is around a man EVEN HER OWN FAMILY and they stare and they hunger. I want to punch them all in the face. Good godly people, sure they want to "save" her from being honest about the sexuality everyone else pretends doesn't exist in daily life when it does- and trying to at least get her needs met out of it when the men will often be finding a way to get what they want either way if you're a disabled woman with emotional/addiction/cognitive functioning issues. I can feel people's darkness and it comes out of people you would never expect, suddenly they have some creepy reason to be alone with you and you can feel what they're up to. This is all the more present for women who have been previously victimized, have disabilities, or are part of a minority/low class/vulnerable group-- or say, are known to have been sex workers at any time.
Or they'll come up with structured pretend scenarios that are about feeding off power dynamics with vulnerable women "I need to be your therapist so tell me about the violation... what are the details, where were you touched" "I need to put you in the jail to save you from exploitation,now take off your clothes in front of everyone" or even, and this is REAL-- "You have a hysterical womb so I need to force you to have an orgasm as part of my professional duty" Forcible sexual abuse AS TREATMENT! THIS is what's inside humans when they get that kind of power over a woman, or the ability to MAKE UP that a woman has some issue that makes them inferior and allows their power to be taken from them!!!!
This is probably legal prostitution at it's best "Langtrees is good—we see a lot of success but we also see a lot of failure,” she acknowledges. “I lost a really good friend to suicide. It all was too much for her. She hung herself in a Perth Park. Then Sue stops. She adds: “Today a 36-year-old woman came in to ask about work. Even though she was 36, we still sent her away to think about it. We always send them away. It’s very important. Because, you know, each time they are sleeping with someone, they are selling part of their soul.”
And this kind of thing going on in Australia makes me less sympathetic to, but still wiling to hear arguments for, full legalization. "About 60 to 70 per cent of human trafficking in Australia occurs in the sex industry, Mr Ashton said, but people were also being trafficked for forced labour, domestic servitude and forced marriage."
posted by xarnop at 7:19 AM on January 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
And don't just provide housing in some dangerous neighborhood where they will be assaulted or their children will be unsafe.
My cousin has been "saved" from sex work so many times. And how is it to have a forced gynecological exam in prison where they snip of your clit piercing-- how dehumanizing and controlling of women's bodies is that?
THAT is saving? WHAT THE FUCK.
I am not convinced that full legalization fixes the issues here (however I don't have a set opinion either way, I am in favor of what works best to protect the vulnerable)- what I do think is if we want to give women options outside of sex work- you need to know why they feel safer in sex work than anywhere else and provide options that are ACTUALLY better. It involves talking to, interviewing, dispersing surveys and actually understanding what kinds of services or supports and what the terms would be that would appeal to women who might like to exit sex work if there was an actual option that felt better.
Also, our culture LOVES victimized damaged women, it lusts over them, it wants the dirt on them- and this is deep in the psyche of the people who will be working any systemix situation designed to "help"
I know for me, there were periods in my life that I hated the lying of people like this so much, it seemed at least a lot more honest to be in the company of men were at least honest that their intentions are exploitative and harmful. If you look at the rates of people with secret fantasies about submission and exploitation on either end of it-- it's way over half of humans that are willing to admit they are into this idea (not to mention how scary are the people who won't even admit it so have even less hope of working with or controlling it?)
I can even see in my own family, my cousin, any time she is around a man EVEN HER OWN FAMILY and they stare and they hunger. I want to punch them all in the face. Good godly people, sure they want to "save" her from being honest about the sexuality everyone else pretends doesn't exist in daily life when it does- and trying to at least get her needs met out of it when the men will often be finding a way to get what they want either way if you're a disabled woman with emotional/addiction/cognitive functioning issues. I can feel people's darkness and it comes out of people you would never expect, suddenly they have some creepy reason to be alone with you and you can feel what they're up to. This is all the more present for women who have been previously victimized, have disabilities, or are part of a minority/low class/vulnerable group-- or say, are known to have been sex workers at any time.
Or they'll come up with structured pretend scenarios that are about feeding off power dynamics with vulnerable women "I need to be your therapist so tell me about the violation... what are the details, where were you touched" "I need to put you in the jail to save you from exploitation,now take off your clothes in front of everyone" or even, and this is REAL-- "You have a hysterical womb so I need to force you to have an orgasm as part of my professional duty" Forcible sexual abuse AS TREATMENT! THIS is what's inside humans when they get that kind of power over a woman, or the ability to MAKE UP that a woman has some issue that makes them inferior and allows their power to be taken from them!!!!
This is probably legal prostitution at it's best "Langtrees is good—we see a lot of success but we also see a lot of failure,” she acknowledges. “I lost a really good friend to suicide. It all was too much for her. She hung herself in a Perth Park. Then Sue stops. She adds: “Today a 36-year-old woman came in to ask about work. Even though she was 36, we still sent her away to think about it. We always send them away. It’s very important. Because, you know, each time they are sleeping with someone, they are selling part of their soul.”
And this kind of thing going on in Australia makes me less sympathetic to, but still wiling to hear arguments for, full legalization. "About 60 to 70 per cent of human trafficking in Australia occurs in the sex industry, Mr Ashton said, but people were also being trafficked for forced labour, domestic servitude and forced marriage."
posted by xarnop at 7:19 AM on January 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
suggested reading alongside this: Playing the Whore, Melissa Gira Grant (excerpt), probably the best thing I read last year.
posted by avocet at 8:31 AM on January 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by avocet at 8:31 AM on January 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
The human trafficking presumably takes place to supply illegal brothels. The whole point of legalisation is to allow effective regulation. Wikipedia has a good article on prostitution in Australia.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:35 AM on January 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:35 AM on January 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'll second avocet's recommendation. "Playing the Whore" is an excellent read and I strongly urge everyone to check it out.
posted by edZio at 9:51 AM on January 6, 2015
posted by edZio at 9:51 AM on January 6, 2015
I think there's the issue of societal misogyny as well. When a young woman is told by her own family, "Hey there, whore, go earn some money" - that says volumes as to the status of women in general and what men think of them.
And when injured and dying young women are literally thrown onto a garbage heap, there's a deep hatred of women and thinking of certain classes of women as actual human garbage. Legalization of prostitution isn't going to solve that.
I don't think that sex for money, per se, is misogynistic or evil. But in a misogynistic society, it tends to be just that most of the time. And certain types of women who are more outcast in the first place (young, poorly educated immigrant women) bear the brunt of this. The way Xarnop's cousin was treated - that's misogyny and contempt right there. Telling your own daughter or sister, in a contemptuous tone, to go work as a prostitute is misogyny. IMO this is the really hard thing to fix.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:09 AM on January 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
And when injured and dying young women are literally thrown onto a garbage heap, there's a deep hatred of women and thinking of certain classes of women as actual human garbage. Legalization of prostitution isn't going to solve that.
I don't think that sex for money, per se, is misogynistic or evil. But in a misogynistic society, it tends to be just that most of the time. And certain types of women who are more outcast in the first place (young, poorly educated immigrant women) bear the brunt of this. The way Xarnop's cousin was treated - that's misogyny and contempt right there. Telling your own daughter or sister, in a contemptuous tone, to go work as a prostitute is misogyny. IMO this is the really hard thing to fix.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:09 AM on January 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Kluger told me that sex work is inherently degrading—not something anyone could freely choose. She doesn't buy the articles whose writers say they paid for college by working as escorts."
Gay white male chiming in, and it was grad school not college, but, for what it's worth, it certainly helped me out in the years when I was struggling with a move from rural America to a university without financial support in a big, expensive city.
I don't think I'd agree with the summation that "for the most part" sex work is brutal (you specifically said "the sex industry," which I think might be an overly generous grouping of apples and oranges, but I think "sex work" is a more acceptable catch-all term). It's certainly there, brutality (and equally concerning hopelessness and self-destruction), but so is discretion (when you're working for yourself) and even joy. The modern era has helped in that regard. Craigslist and A4A, in my case, made even the prospect of crossing lines with any organized system virtually nil (which, to be honest, I don't think exists in a major way for gay men in the part of the US where I was at the time). I wish I had better figures, too, because anecdotes don't tell a complete tale, even when accompanied by equally incomplete survey data.
An inability to say no to a prospective client is the part of the trafficking equation that freaks me out to no end. That's a serious and genuine horror.
This is a great read, thanks for sharing.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:56 PM on January 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Gay white male chiming in, and it was grad school not college, but, for what it's worth, it certainly helped me out in the years when I was struggling with a move from rural America to a university without financial support in a big, expensive city.
I don't think I'd agree with the summation that "for the most part" sex work is brutal (you specifically said "the sex industry," which I think might be an overly generous grouping of apples and oranges, but I think "sex work" is a more acceptable catch-all term). It's certainly there, brutality (and equally concerning hopelessness and self-destruction), but so is discretion (when you're working for yourself) and even joy. The modern era has helped in that regard. Craigslist and A4A, in my case, made even the prospect of crossing lines with any organized system virtually nil (which, to be honest, I don't think exists in a major way for gay men in the part of the US where I was at the time). I wish I had better figures, too, because anecdotes don't tell a complete tale, even when accompanied by equally incomplete survey data.
An inability to say no to a prospective client is the part of the trafficking equation that freaks me out to no end. That's a serious and genuine horror.
This is a great read, thanks for sharing.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:56 PM on January 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
The best way to help sex workers is to make sure there are jobs that are better than sex work. Some folks will still want to do it, but hey, set up some reasonable OSHA regulations and there's not really a huge difference between that and all the other jobs that pay you for your body, like farm work or (non-erotic) massage, etc.
I kinda wanted to shake all of the authorities in the story and yell "It's the capitalism, stupid!"
posted by klangklangston at 7:30 PM on January 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I kinda wanted to shake all of the authorities in the story and yell "It's the capitalism, stupid!"
posted by klangklangston at 7:30 PM on January 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
One interesting and problematic aspect I hadn't considered before is the disruption caused when some countries (such as Germany) go pretty far in legalizing prostitution while nearby countries where people can travel freely keep it illegal. A lot of women apparently moved from the still-illegal places to the legal places, which drove supply way up and prices (at least at the low end of the spectrum) significantly down, making life difficult for many women.
Maybe that should have been an obvious result but it didn't occur to me and it's a problem. Opponents of legalization will undoubtedly point to it, as in the article on legalization in Germany linked above, as a problem with legalization. It isn't, of course, but if you don't think about it all that deeply it does look like it in a post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc kind of way.
posted by Justinian at 12:41 AM on January 7, 2015
Maybe that should have been an obvious result but it didn't occur to me and it's a problem. Opponents of legalization will undoubtedly point to it, as in the article on legalization in Germany linked above, as a problem with legalization. It isn't, of course, but if you don't think about it all that deeply it does look like it in a post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc kind of way.
posted by Justinian at 12:41 AM on January 7, 2015
I left out the concluding sentence where I say that I think it's a problem with conflicting laws inside areas of free travel, not with legalization itself. You could solve it by standardizing on legalization rather than prohibition. There would be no incentive to concentrate in relatively small areas then.
posted by Justinian at 12:44 AM on January 7, 2015
posted by Justinian at 12:44 AM on January 7, 2015
I think there's the issue of societal misogyny as well. When a young woman is told by her own family, "Hey there, whore, go earn some money" - that says volumes as to the status of women in general and what men think of them.
Without wishing to in any way minimize the issue of societal misogyny, there was a TV documentary a few years ago about the involvement of Romanian Roma in sex work that showed footage of one father negotiating the rent of his 12 or 13 year old son for sexual services.
He was insistent that his son not be anally penetrated, but aside from that, pretty much anything else was on offer
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:28 AM on January 7, 2015
Without wishing to in any way minimize the issue of societal misogyny, there was a TV documentary a few years ago about the involvement of Romanian Roma in sex work that showed footage of one father negotiating the rent of his 12 or 13 year old son for sexual services.
He was insistent that his son not be anally penetrated, but aside from that, pretty much anything else was on offer
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:28 AM on January 7, 2015
"there's not really a huge difference between that and all the other jobs that pay you for your body, like farm work or (non-erotic) massage, etc."
I'd be curious as to evidence this statement is factually correct. I imagine on a bad day, needing but but getting fucked up the ass when you desperately want out is a very different experience than needing money and giving someone a massage when you wish you were off.
My experience of mopping floors when I wish it was over has been- while harmful and damaging to me, not nearly the same experience as wishing sex were over but still experiencing it any way to please a partner or avoid consequences that seemed worse at the time.
I'd be curious to see research on the long term (10-20-40) life course of people who spend a lot of time in sex work when they feel stuck vs other types of labor people can feel stuck in. The reality that unwanted sex can pretty much be experienced a lot like rape, makes me suspect there is likely more of a difference for many people (though perhaps not all) than people tend to make out when they are pushing for legalization.
posted by xarnop at 5:02 AM on January 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd be curious as to evidence this statement is factually correct. I imagine on a bad day, needing but but getting fucked up the ass when you desperately want out is a very different experience than needing money and giving someone a massage when you wish you were off.
My experience of mopping floors when I wish it was over has been- while harmful and damaging to me, not nearly the same experience as wishing sex were over but still experiencing it any way to please a partner or avoid consequences that seemed worse at the time.
I'd be curious to see research on the long term (10-20-40) life course of people who spend a lot of time in sex work when they feel stuck vs other types of labor people can feel stuck in. The reality that unwanted sex can pretty much be experienced a lot like rape, makes me suspect there is likely more of a difference for many people (though perhaps not all) than people tend to make out when they are pushing for legalization.
posted by xarnop at 5:02 AM on January 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd be curious to see research on the long term (10-20-40) life course of people who spend a lot of time in sex work when they feel stuck vs other types of labor people can feel stuck in. The reality that unwanted sex can pretty much be experienced a lot like rape, makes me suspect there is likely more of a difference for many people (though perhaps not all) than people tend to make out when they are pushing for legalization.
That may be true but it isn't in any way an argument against legalization of sex work; it is an argument for giving people more and better alternatives to sex work. Making sex work illegal doesn't stop people from doing that work, but it definitely makes that work more dangerous, more stigmatized, and completely removed from normal workplace safety and legal protections (such as being able to call the police for protection from a dangerous client), in the process creating considerable additional stress and trauma.
The research may not exist (in large part because of the difficulties created by illegality and stigmatization) but it wouldn't at all surprise me if you are correct and sex work would belong on the list of jobs that carry risks of high stress and even PTSD for some people, like being in the military, police, or an EMT. If so, that would support providing much better workplace safety, far better alternatives (as Klangklangston describes), and of course better mental health care for everyone, which is something we are currently totally failing at doing, obviously.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:41 AM on January 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
That may be true but it isn't in any way an argument against legalization of sex work; it is an argument for giving people more and better alternatives to sex work. Making sex work illegal doesn't stop people from doing that work, but it definitely makes that work more dangerous, more stigmatized, and completely removed from normal workplace safety and legal protections (such as being able to call the police for protection from a dangerous client), in the process creating considerable additional stress and trauma.
The research may not exist (in large part because of the difficulties created by illegality and stigmatization) but it wouldn't at all surprise me if you are correct and sex work would belong on the list of jobs that carry risks of high stress and even PTSD for some people, like being in the military, police, or an EMT. If so, that would support providing much better workplace safety, far better alternatives (as Klangklangston describes), and of course better mental health care for everyone, which is something we are currently totally failing at doing, obviously.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:41 AM on January 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
I imagine on a bad day, needing but but getting fucked up the ass when you desperately want out is a very different experience than needing money and giving someone a massage when you wish you were off.
I get why people might think this, and I might have thought it before I started stripping. Granted, I don't have sex with my clients, but I get naked for men for money in a sexualized context, so I consider myself to be a sex worker.
Speaking only for my own personal experience? Giving a lap dance on a day when I just want to go home isn't markedly different from doing a boring task at my internship on a day when I just want to go home. (Except that I get paid a lot more for the lap dance.)
If you do sex work long enough, it's just work. And accordingly, faking pleasure during a lap dance becomes the same as faking a smile in any other customer service setting. It's just acting. Have you ever been super nice to a customer while you're having a bad day, just because that's how customer service works? That's all it feels like to me.
If you strip long enough, you become numb to the sexual element. All the customers in the room are like "OMG NAKED GIRLS!!" and all the naked girls in the room are like "oh hey, coworkers."
Yes, in the sex industry, sex workers have to deal with emotionally taxing, shitty situations at times. But that isn't one of the better reasons to make prostitution illegal. I work in other industries, and have to deal with some gut-wrenching, emotionally taxing, shitty situations at those places too. I just get paid a lot more for the sex work.
posted by Peppermint Snowflake at 7:32 AM on January 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
I get why people might think this, and I might have thought it before I started stripping. Granted, I don't have sex with my clients, but I get naked for men for money in a sexualized context, so I consider myself to be a sex worker.
Speaking only for my own personal experience? Giving a lap dance on a day when I just want to go home isn't markedly different from doing a boring task at my internship on a day when I just want to go home. (Except that I get paid a lot more for the lap dance.)
If you do sex work long enough, it's just work. And accordingly, faking pleasure during a lap dance becomes the same as faking a smile in any other customer service setting. It's just acting. Have you ever been super nice to a customer while you're having a bad day, just because that's how customer service works? That's all it feels like to me.
If you strip long enough, you become numb to the sexual element. All the customers in the room are like "OMG NAKED GIRLS!!" and all the naked girls in the room are like "oh hey, coworkers."
Yes, in the sex industry, sex workers have to deal with emotionally taxing, shitty situations at times. But that isn't one of the better reasons to make prostitution illegal. I work in other industries, and have to deal with some gut-wrenching, emotionally taxing, shitty situations at those places too. I just get paid a lot more for the sex work.
posted by Peppermint Snowflake at 7:32 AM on January 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I'd be curious as to evidence this statement is factually correct. I imagine on a bad day, needing but but getting fucked up the ass when you desperately want out is a very different experience than needing money and giving someone a massage when you wish you were off."
You elided the first part of my statement, which is that if there are other alternatives that are just as good or better that are not sex work, then only people interested in doing sex work will be doing it. It's a manual labor job with low training requirements, but there are people who enjoy doing it and should be able to chose to do it. Just like how I have friends who really do love landscaping and would chose to do it even if they had other options. Similar problems abound, like how to make sure that people have developed skills that allow them to transition out after they essentially age out of the job, whether that means going to management or using skills learned to move into a different line of work entirely.
posted by klangklangston at 10:26 AM on January 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
You elided the first part of my statement, which is that if there are other alternatives that are just as good or better that are not sex work, then only people interested in doing sex work will be doing it. It's a manual labor job with low training requirements, but there are people who enjoy doing it and should be able to chose to do it. Just like how I have friends who really do love landscaping and would chose to do it even if they had other options. Similar problems abound, like how to make sure that people have developed skills that allow them to transition out after they essentially age out of the job, whether that means going to management or using skills learned to move into a different line of work entirely.
posted by klangklangston at 10:26 AM on January 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think I stated I would support whatever will best protect the most vulnerable. I have not been convinced by arguments that legalization alone will do that, (vs decriminalization on sex worker end) however I am interested in actual evidence about how well it works. I've had sex to meet survival needs needs too. I am not comfortable calling survival sex much else than sexual abuse but I think it's a community crime that we do not house and care for the homeless, disabled, mentally ill,and addicts among us.
The problem is that legalization will still be planted in the midst of capitalism which makes it impossible to know who is there by "choice" and who isn't and there's a huge grey area between trafficked and fully comfortable/chosing sex work. I'm fine with legalization being part of an actual coherent effort to fight the sexual abuse of vulnerable people but I am not convinced that a policy like Sweden's wouldn't be more protective of the vulnerable than full legalization and setting up brotherls where 18 year olds can sign up and get start and trafficking/abuse can be hard to distinguish and stop.
posted by xarnop at 12:46 PM on January 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
The problem is that legalization will still be planted in the midst of capitalism which makes it impossible to know who is there by "choice" and who isn't and there's a huge grey area between trafficked and fully comfortable/chosing sex work. I'm fine with legalization being part of an actual coherent effort to fight the sexual abuse of vulnerable people but I am not convinced that a policy like Sweden's wouldn't be more protective of the vulnerable than full legalization and setting up brotherls where 18 year olds can sign up and get start and trafficking/abuse can be hard to distinguish and stop.
posted by xarnop at 12:46 PM on January 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Decriminalizing on only the sex worker end seems fundamentally unjust to me. How can one possibly make something illegal to buy but legal to sell?
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on January 7, 2015
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on January 7, 2015
From a theoretical economic perspective it should make no difference, but practically speaking the social ills are mostly caused bu pimps and johns; and cops arresting johns are less tempted to abuse their powers.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:14 PM on January 7, 2015
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:14 PM on January 7, 2015
Like how a boss can get in trouble for offering a raise to someone for sex--and the boss would still be the one in trouble if that occurred as a sexual abuser-not the other way around.
posted by xarnop at 2:21 PM on January 7, 2015
posted by xarnop at 2:21 PM on January 7, 2015
I think I remember reading something, I think here on MeFi, arguing that an unintended consequence of the "punish the buyers, not the sellers" model is that transactions move from more public and therefore comparatively safe places (where your friends can note which car you're getting into, for example) and into more secret ones, which can actually make abusive johns and controlling pimps more of a problem. Does anyone else remember this?
posted by naoko at 7:39 PM on January 7, 2015
posted by naoko at 7:39 PM on January 7, 2015
Decriminalizing on only the sex worker end seems fundamentally unjust to me. How can one possibly make something illegal to buy but legal to sell?
Variations on that are not uncommon in drug reform either.
I don't know the cite Neoko asks about but it certainly seems plausible. It also seems like if you make the "consumer" the only one who can be punished in the transaction you're providing a lot of power to the "seller" over their client. Which could make for perverse incentives as well. There's a wide cultural fear over the Vindictive Scorned Woman and a sex worker who could turn you into the cops would play into that. When you look at how many people believe false rape accusations are common, despite evidence to the contrary, you'd have to assume they'd have the same fear the prostitute they hired would try to take advantage of them in some way.
posted by phearlez at 8:27 PM on January 7, 2015
Variations on that are not uncommon in drug reform either.
I don't know the cite Neoko asks about but it certainly seems plausible. It also seems like if you make the "consumer" the only one who can be punished in the transaction you're providing a lot of power to the "seller" over their client. Which could make for perverse incentives as well. There's a wide cultural fear over the Vindictive Scorned Woman and a sex worker who could turn you into the cops would play into that. When you look at how many people believe false rape accusations are common, despite evidence to the contrary, you'd have to assume they'd have the same fear the prostitute they hired would try to take advantage of them in some way.
posted by phearlez at 8:27 PM on January 7, 2015
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Wow. Just. Wow.
posted by lollusc at 4:14 AM on January 6, 2015